An excellent, well written article. Like the author, I too am a godless geek; an atheist, like most atheists I know, with ethics.

another great piece from Chrys; as always her work is direct and honest without being unfairly judgemental-highly commendable!! thanks for pointing out all of the volunteer work that goes into this movement for change. we should never forget the unpaid work of Chrys and all of other secular activists and spokespeople...individually and collectively we can all make a difference to the world, thanks Chrys! she also has a blog that many are following: "Gladly, the Cross-Eyed Bear" at: http://thatsmyphilosophy.wordpress.com

Chrys is a real voice of reason and highly regarded and respected by many!

keep writing Chrys, we are listening!

Wow, it sounds like a wonderful and worthwhile meeting. I will make to the next one no matter what. As for being a Nazi I am not Catholic like Hitler so I don't see the connection at all, and I am very tried of stupid statements that have no foundation from people like Pell. My life, which is godless, is full of purpose and caring for others, I don't need a god to tell me how to be "good". As for the the Stop the Austrian Vaccination Network, they are true HEROES. My friend had a baby this year and info had been past to her about the AVN and she was reconsidering if she should have her son vaccinated. It was at this time that I post some things from Stop the AustralianVaccination Network on my Facebook page and she realised that what the AVN was saying was insane. This helped her to inform her first mum's group, which means that is 10 babies were saved from AVN insanity.
Finally Chyrs this article as always is interesting and provides so much great info. Thanks

Another beautifully written, reasonable and well-reasoned piece from Chrys.

Cardinal Pell?

Surely no one outside the the staff of The Australian would even waste five seconds on this unxtian character?

Pell seems to believe that, outside of the Vatican's evil grip on people, organisations like the Salvo's are the way to go:
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/salvation-army-says-sorry-for-abuse-20101207-18o2c.html

There are not too many non-believing groups who can outshine the religious for their thoughtful expressions of the Jesus True Love.

This is what the Generalissimo, flown out all the way from the UK, in a tightly controlled media event, had to say about the 'everyone loves the Salvos' efforts:

"In the event that was closed to the media, the Salvation Army acknowledged the 'rigid, harsh and authoritarian' environment inside many of its homes.

"Many children did not experience the gentleness of love that they needed," the apology, later distributed to media, read.

"Some children suffered abuse and deprivation. As a result their stories are full of hurt, rejection, discouragement and a failure to realise potential"

Yes, Cardinal Pell and his Jesus Prayer Warriors would know ALL about 'love' and 'tolerance' wouldn't they?

Which is why the latest nonsense to promote religion in state schools, in WA, is so dangerous and upsetting:

http://www.bunburymail.com.au/news/local/news/general/bunbury-chaplains-take-on-disaster-support-role/2019197.aspx

Here is Youthcare on the NSCA list..
http://schoolchaplaincy.org.au/about-nsca/

What they get away with in WA via the NSCP..
http://www.youthcare.org.au/Inner-Text/chaplaincy.html

Brilliant summation of the meeting Chrys.

I would like to have attended TAM, but I am not as wealthy as the "Holy" Roman Bloody Catholic Church of which I am a bedraggled refugee.
As far as George Cardinal "Go To Hell" Pell is concerned, he is an insult to the Human Race. I wonder what Gen. Peter Cosgrove thought when he heard Pell hijack his special day to spew out his vitrionic attacks on people that have 110% more intelligence that any of the hierachy of the Roman Catholic Church.

My hero strikes again!! What an incredible insight into the 'The Amazing Meeting.' I am flabbergasted that Chrys Stevenson has not yet become a household name. Her witty wise words punch a hole in the cracks of an ignorant disengaged society and give the newly curious a reasoned worldview that is more compassionate and indeed simply mind altering.Life on earth as an atheists/sceptic has never been so forefilling and exciting. Thanks Chrys.

Chris writes

'Educators, such as America’s Eugenie Scott, argued against the intrusion of religious dogma into science classes. Concerns about religious sensitivity to evolution are leading to dangerous compromises in both countries. Creationism and Intelligent Design are creeping into science classes, or evolution is being removed from curriculums for fear of offending the sensibilities of religious parents'

This is hilarous. After years of deceit and false 'facts' and twisted observations and lack of evidence the fundamentalist secularist are upset that a far more plausible and reasonable explanation be offered for origins. To call evolution science is deceit at best and this group of god deniers are upset. Thankfully small kids are smart enough to see design written all over our planet. Evolution as one expert says is fairytales for adults.

You said absolutely everything that needed to be said. That's beautiful.

An excellent summation of the aims and achievemnts of the dedicated people who worked tirelessly to make The Amazing Meeting (TAM)a rip-roaring success. The self-seeking nay-saying of Pell is barely worth mention except to say that his time is, thankfully, drawing to an end. Even catholics have had enough of him.
Long live rationality - the only reliable path to truth in all things.

Well said!
Runner, stop lying. Evolution is as factual as it gets. Name one useful prediction from creationism? Evolution has thousands.
The evidence is overwhelming unless you actively ignore it...hence I call you *ignor*ant. This is not an insult, it is merely descriptive of the *vast* amount of knowledge you must deride or insult in order to hold the destructive views you do.
Remember, we have had over 4000 years of religion which led to very little progress.
Yet it took ups a mere 200 years to crawl out of the muck using science and engineering, which relies on God's truth and real humility, not church dogma and ego.
So spout your hatred, but remember when you go to a hospital, the science that may keep you alive and un-crippled has come directly from Godless evolution, without which modern biology could not exist. Remember when the next vaccine is needed, or the next wonder drug saves lives...all from the correct understanding of Gods work instead of mindless ego that faith is based on.
So deride science if you want...but we all know you'll be sucking on the teat of modern engineering when you need it. BTW this image is why I call religion "parasitical". It harms the host that it derives it's wealth and lifeblood from.

Brilliant article. Thanks. Really enjoyed reading it. I was quite offended by those remarks of Pell's, but I guess his defensiveness is understandable considering his church's fast declining relevance.

Cheers Chrys. I must say that the line “about the need to respect those who don’t share our views” is a bit of a misrepresentation of my point. I never mentioned anything out ‘respect’, by point was to promote 'understanding'. Thanks for the mention all the same.

Simon, I think I understand your point but I have simply phrased it a little differently. Your point, I believe, was that we should not brand people 'stupid' because they believe stupid things. Rather, we should consider 'why' they hold such beliefs and have a bit of understanding - we all have our own biases. My rephrasing that we should 'respect' those who don't share our views says, I think, essentially the same thing - at least that was my intent. It does not suggest that the 'views' should be respected, but the people holding them, generally, should be. I'm sorry if you didn't read it that way.

"To call evolution science is deceit at best ..."
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:15:50 AM

runner ... Evolution has little to do with origins - origins for the universe is cosmogenesis, and for biological life is abiogenesis.

Evolution was verified by finding the microscopic mechanisms by which it happens - Austrian Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel's Laws of Inheritance published in 1865 (that still apply today); chromosomes, etc that lead to the Modern Evolutionary synthesis in the 1940s with contributions by Theodosius Dobzhansky and Julian Huxley; and subsequent discoveries such as DNA, RNA, etc.

"Thankfully small kids are smart enough to see design written all over our planet. Evolution as one expert says is fairytales for adults."

Small kids lead down the garden path by misleading adults?

Just re-read Pell's diatribe -

"Cardinal Pell said education was not enough to create a civilised society, that faith was necessary too. He cited the example of 20th century Germany, which he said was the best educated society in the world when Hitler became leader."

http://www.smh.com.au/national/faithless-are-coarse-uncaring-and-without-purpose-says-cardinal-pell-20101128-18cg3.html

Hitler got in, in 1933, after a few episodes voting had not given a clear majority, and after a previous minority leader - army general named Kurt von Schleicher - tendered his resignation to Hindenburg, 57 days after he had been appointed. as he had been unable to secure a majority coalition in the Reichstag.

Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany, although the National Socialists never captured more than 37 percent of the national vote, and even though they still held a minority of cabinet posts and fewer than 50 percent of the seats in the Reichstag. Hitler and the Nazis then set out to to consolidate their power.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0403a.asp

It had nothing to do with faith, or lack of it; or education, whether it be optimum, lack of, or anything in between.

Pell misrepresents, again.

Dear Runner
Intelligent Christians must be wishing that you would stop blaming god for our very unintelligent design. There are many places where you can read lists of the really dumb things about our design that you are blaming god for. Have a good look at http://www.youdebate.com/cgi-bin/scarecrow/topic.cgi?forum=3&topic=833. A couple of our design flaws mentioned there are:
• Retinal arteries/veins lying on and in front of the retina of the eyes. Many causes of blindness come from this defective design.
• Hip joints perfectly suited to support human weight if there were four of them or 4 supporting limbs. In a biped, the stress causes extremely common hip degeneration, and femoral neck fractures in women and older people. How often do you hear of that in a dog or horse?
No intelligent designer would have signed off on these and numerous other examples of poor human design. And many of these provide more evidence that humans really did evolve from quadrupeds in which the design features that are flaws in humans would have made sense.

Would anyone like to speculate on what would have happened if Pell had directed his abuse towards someone other than atheists -- say, women?
--
A minority of women, usually women without men, are frightened by the future,” Cardinal Pell, the Archbishop of Sydney, said during his homily at the St Mary’s Cathedral Mass.

”It’s almost as though they’ve … nothing but fear to distract themselves from the fact that without men the universe has no objective purpose or meaning. Nothing beyond the constructs they confect to cover the abyss.”

Life without men was ”life without purpose, without constraints”, he said.
--
How long would he have been permitted to keep his job? But atheists remain a safe target for any coward with bile to spill. Is it any wonder that we are becoming 'militant'?

Thanks Chrys great article, wish I had been there.
It still amazes me that supposedly learned hominids like Pell, Leader of the Roman Catholic Church in Australia no less, still lie about Hitler and Nazis being Atheist. Hitler was Roman Catholic to his jack boots. For those wanting the truth on this matter you can read Hitler’s translated own words in English here. http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
It also amazes me that Christians can also ignore the established facts about the existence of Jesus Christ. It’s a myth, mostly built on the previous mythology and misunderstood astrological events of ancient peoples.
Rewriting history or ignoring the established facts for the sake of your blind faith can only be called one thing and that’s nonsense. If you can call Homeopathy, or anti-vaccination or clairvoyance nonsense you can certainly call religion nonsense and if a few believers get upset, so what!

What more can be said?

SCEPTIC | skeptk | n. & a. Also (arch. & N. Amer.) sk. L16. [Fr. sceptique or L scepticus, in pl. sceptici followers of the Greek philosopher Pyrrho (see below), f. Gk skeptikos, pl. skeptikoi, f. skeptesthai look about, consider, observe, rel. to skopein, skopos: see SCOPE n.1, IC.] A n. 1 Philos. A person who maintains the impossibility of real knowledge of any kind, orig. spec. (now Hist.), a follower of the Greek philosopher Pyrrho of Elis (c300 BC), a Pyrrhonist; a person who holds that there are no adequate grounds for certainty as to the truth of any proposition whatever. L16. 2 A person who doubts the validity of accepted beliefs in a particular subject; a person inclined to doubt any assertion or apparent fact. E17. 3 A person seeking the truth; an inquirer who has not yet arrived at definite convictions. E17. 4 A person who doubts the truth of (important parts of) the Christian religion; loosely an unbeliever in Christianity. M17.
2 S. NAIPAUL Jones' psychic talents would have convinced the most hardened sceptic. B adj. = SCEPTICAL a. Now rare. L16.

SCEPTICAL | skeptk()l | a. Also (arch. & N. Amer.) sk. E17. [f. as prec.: see ICAL.] 1 Of a person: inclined to scepticism; dubious, incredulous. E17. 2 Of a doctrine, opinion, etc.: characteristic of a sceptic; of the nature of scepticism. M18.
1 A. BISHOP Russell was sceptical aboutvaccinesto cure obscure diseases. sceptically adv. L17.

SCEOTICISM | skeptsz()m | n. Also (arch. & N. Amer.) sk. M17. [f. SCEPTIC + ISM.] 1 Philos. The doctrine of the sceptics, Pyrrhonism; the opinion that real knowledge of any kind is unattainable. M17. 2 A sceptical attitude in relation to a particular branch of knowledge; doubt as to the truth of some assertion or apparent fact. Also, mistrustfulness, doubting disposition. M17. 3 Doubt or unbelief with regard to the Christian religion. E19.Also sceptism n. (rare) M17.

Excerpted from The Oxford Interactive Encyclopedia
Developed by The Learning Company, Inc. Copyright (c) 1997 TLC Properties Inc. All rights reserved.

As usual an excellent piece Chrys. Pell's comments are so foolish and contrasting that with the TAM contents is quite stark.

@runner, you give a great example of the kind of stupid attitudes that people find it hard to believe are actually out there. Our education system has failed you and its very sad.

@imefree yes, science itself is based on not holding anything to be absolutely true. All knowledge is considered to be a provisional approximation and that data may come along later that shows existing theories must be revised or discarded. This is a good thing. Holding on to a point of view, not allowing doubt, means you are doomed to freeze your knowledge at the level of ignorance you had attained when it first came to you.

Thanks Chrys for a great article, it must have been an awesome meeting.

Cardinal Pell represents an antiquated institution bent on scamming people from all walks of life identifying with their deepest fears and lack of self esteem. This system takes peoples money, does not pay taxes and intrudes on peoples lives from the cradle to the grave. In Pells case, it also colludes to cover up child abuse of the worst type. Why should anyone care what he says? It's beyond me. He has lived off poor indoctrinated people all his life. To me he is the scum of the earth and I wouldn't give him the time of day.

Your group, on the other hand, is trying to discuss and bring light to some of the pressing problems we have in the world today. It seems to me that all you guys were actually doing was trying to find some solutions.

Very few religious representatives that I know of, actually do anything constructive. They claim to do good works, and maybe they do occasionally, but they take more than they give. Paying lip service is a technique religious representatives have down to a fine art - while their institutions fill their coffers with money which could be better spent on scientific research etc.

Deary me, poor old George.

For so many hundreds of years, religion was such an easy business.
You'd indocrinate the kiddies, you'd play on the punters hopes and
fears. People lacked information and education, so it was not hard
to blitz them with dogma. You'd build huge cathedrals to impress
them and flog them indulgences, when money was required.

No matter what the Vatican did, all was forgiven and the church
rolled on, from generation to generation with impunity.

Its all changing now. The church pews are empty, those left are
generally old. People are informed, with google at their fingertips.
Being a cardinal no longer earns automatic respect, everything that
the chuch does and claims is questioned, as it should be.

Today, the church is more infamous for sexual cover ups, then just
about anything else.

No wonder George seems worried about his future, or else why
would he be attacking non believers?

Flogging religion is just not as simple as it used to be, certainly
not in the first world.

Great read, Chrys. Nice to know there's a voice out there who can politely express my offence at the intolerant who vilify my profound acceptance of reason and evidence while simultaneously bleating the injustice of their own superstition and bigotry losing the privileged position it never deserved in a secular country.

Rabble rousers of reason unite!

Ozandy

Your ignorant rant says a lot of hot air. The discovery of vaccines and other advancements have absolutely nothing to do with the farcical belief that we evolved from apes and you know it. The only ones deriding science as you put it are those who deliberately twist observations to fit their faith theory. Evolutionist are masters at that.

You may sprout your hatred despite the fact that many medical breakthroughs have been made by humble men who rely on God. In fact many doctors today treat patients knowing their limitations. Most of the early hospitals were built by Christians despite your distorted view of history. No doubt you don't want to hear a list of scientific discoveries by believers.

You write
'but remember when you go to a hospital, the science that may keep you alive'

Yes true science might well increase my life span but what has that got to do with the farcical belief in evolution. Man has absolutely no knowledge without God and twisted knowledge when not retaining a knowledge of him. Just look at the ridiculous 'science' used to justify man made gw. I will thank God for any knowledge He has revealed to man in order to bring healing to my body.

I suggest it will be you calling on God's mercy rather that me 'sucking on the teat of modern engineering ' when the time comes.

You might have to deny creation every time you look at a forrest or the sea of the landscape but your mocking of those who don't certainly does not enhance your 'science' qualifications. In fact they make you look pretty silly.

Pretty silly, you accept vaccinations but don't understand why you need a flu shot every season.

Its not to late for an education runner

I wholly support "rabble rousers or reason" against the "believers in stupid things". You'll find believers and non-believers in both camps. But let’s not pretend that because most of those who attended the conference were atheists that it is mainly atheists who are on the side of reason. What Chrys's article failed to highlight were issues that were ignored, and even made light of, along with the capacity of non-believers to be believers of stupid things.

Non-believers are at their best when it comes to finding flaws in claims advanced by some religions, charlatans and frauds. However, they are flawed in blindly extrapolating experiences in one religion, namely Christianity, to all religions. My religion is Islam and non-believers believe some very stupid things about my religion, in total disregard for the evidence, simply because it is convenient to do so.

Many, but not all, non-believers have serious blind spots when it comes to dealing with serious social issues such as alcohol and sexual violence and its impact on society as well as individuals. As with many non-believers, Chrys's article makes light of these issues:

<<As far as I know, the weekend involved no binge drinking sessions, no orgies and no crime sprees - at least none to which I was invited! In fact, the organisers of two very well attended “fringe” events held in Sydney pubs lost their deposits because the sceptics simply didn’t drink enough alcohol!>>

What were the kids doing while their parents were away feeling good about themselves? The stats would suggest they were likely to be engaged in less wholesome activities.

So why do many non-believers fail to take these issues seriously? Perhaps because it would demand of parents behaviour that they are not ready to accept...even for the sake of their children. It’s easier to go chasing charlatans.

salaams

What were the kids doing while their parents were away feeling good about themselves? The stats would suggest they were likely to be engaged in less wholesome activities.

What stats? I do not think anyone needs to explain what their children are doing. It was an article on TAMOZ that is it, nothing more or less. Not writing about abuse or violence.

'but remember when you go to a hospital, the science that may keep you alive' Why write this? there is no need.

Considering my GP is a Christian, most people I work with are believers. I just happen to not be a believer. Science does not equal atheism or even being sceptical.

Pretty silly, you accept vaccinations but don't understand why you need a flu shot every season. Again why this?

I know many people believers and non believers who accept vaccinations and do not have a flu shot. I do not see how this is silly many people associate vaccinations with childhood diseases and dying or ending up very sick or even disabled due to not having them. Flu shots are relatively new for people and more information needs to get out there. No need to attack.

This is such a well written, reasoned and entertaining piece! Thanks for doing this work, Chrys, and for being the spokesperson for many.

Runner
You are simply mixing with people who think like you. May I offer you a list of scientists who are atheists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_(science_and_technology).
If you choose to believe in a Sky Fairy, that is your business. Others choose not to believe in Fairy Tales or Mythology. It is obvious to me that the Jesus Story is a myth based on previous myths like Mythras, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_myth_theory
If you want to believe in this stuff, then fine, but others have every right to demand some sort of scientific fact before committing themselves to delusion. This does not seem "over the top". Talking of delusion, the reality that you are incapable of accepting the fact of evolution really says it all. Anyway, you are welcome to live in a fanciful world if that is what choose. Just don't decry others from wanting proof before committing themselves to your delusions.

I say, don't you think you're being a bit harsh on Runner?

The evidence is there. Just read Danny Nahlia's words of wisdom from Catch The Fire Ministry, you know, Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard and Peter Costello's great chum.

Danny has pointed out to us all that the ever loving gods burned Victoria to the ground because the evil socialist Brumby had changed some abortion laws.

And look at Qld, where Anna Bligh, the gods fearing premier, refuses to bring Qld into the 21st century, and it has not been burned to the ground.

Clearly the gods can see the difference between an evil communist and a good Tory premier.

Also, Danny was instrumental in ending the 10 year drought by praying to the gods.

It's certainly worked hasn't it? There can be absolutely no question that the gods didn't hear his pleas for rain.

Clearly, all those farmers who were already going broke without rain, but are now flooded out, are being punished by the gods for not paying enough attention to their church attendance during the drought.

Again, it's obvious isn't it?

Of course, like the evil gay soldiers who cop a bullet in the US Wars of Freedom, which allows us all to know that the gods hate fags (what about nicotine patches?) it could be that our farmers are gay, I wonder?

So, you see Runner, I at least can see that you are guided by the gods, and speak the truth to us here.

I really don't know why the rest of them here are so, well, misguided and refuse to see your truth.

Highly entertaining article and comments.
Sounds like it was a great meeting.

Surely runner's just some kind of troll,
posting such unmitigated rubbish in a discussion
like this? I can't believe that anybody
could really be that much of a caricature
of the hectoring Creationist.

It makes for amusing reading, anyway.

Oh Talisman, just wait until Al Gore Is Rich gets his quill out and starts posting his gods-fearing bon mots.

Runner is a mild contributor in the genre of 'cartoon Christianity' compared to some of 'em.

REVENGE OF THE GODLY...(by the grace of God only)

Ok... this article is an obvious attempt at strutting and self agrandizement and is very misleading.

As IF Cardinal Pell would single them out for special comment. (as IF)

He said: (in the broadest, most general sense)

a)Life without God was ''life without purpose, without constraints''

and

b) 'Australian society will become increasingly coarse and uncaring … if Christian principles are excluded from public discussion."

Which is absolutely sound philosophically if not anecdotally.

1/ No God
2/ No moral right or wrong, other than 'opinion'.
3/ No restraint, other than 'law'.
4/ Law is changed by interest groups, taking a line of lesser resistance and influenced by activism (See Grove Publishing/Evergreen Review history)
5/ Orgies, sex parties and pornography abound. (This is how the some progressive socialites of New York described their lives during the times of the Lady Chatterly's Lover case)
6/ Law is changed by sleazy progressive pressure groups. (see above)
7/ "no restraint" loop to "3/"

annnnd....you don't call sex parties orgies and pornography "coarse" ?

The pre-eminent example of exactly how this occured is BARNEY ROSSET
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQE_LkfSe7A

What was his goal ? "to change the world" .

Has it changed ? and in what way?

God help us all.

Pells words are smack on:

They reflect this:

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

TBC

Don't forget that during the bushfires some high priests of the gw faith blamed climate change. Talk about blind faith.

I see what you mean, Blue Cross.

Mind you, I have to thank ALGORE for linking
to that great little vid. That Barney Rosset
was quite a guy, wasn't he? I hadn't realised
that he was the publisher of so many seminal
works in the 1960s.

The Doors soundtrack was very cool too.
Thanks Al, thanks Barney.

Did you know that today is Jim Morrison's birthday?

"Don't forget that during the bushfires some high priests of the gw faith blamed climate change. Talk about blind faith."
Posted by runner, Thursday, 9 December 2010 10:09:45 AM

the Composition Fallacy - attributing qualities or characteristics of parts of a whole to the whole itself, or attributing qualities or characteristics of some parts of a whole to all parts.

ie. in this case saying, falsely, that all global warming adherents (or their collective bodies) ascribe to what one or two may have said.

McReal

Scientifically speaking if someone is to blame for the bushfires it should be those of Green faith who put lives at risk in disallowing the clearing of land before the fires came. They allowed the fuel to build up and build up in order to save some extinct beetle which was burnt up anyway. This is fact. Those who tried to make political mileage from gw here were just showing how stupid their faith is.

Talisman, it's not hard to get a bite from Al and Runner.

They are programmed as cartoon-Christians to act like, well, cartoon characters I suppose.

But I like this from Al:

"He [Pell] said: (in the broadest, most general sense)

"a)Life without God was 'life without purpose, without constraints'".

Funny eh? When these people regard the purpose of life is to keep having children like there is no tomorrow, yet their leaders, all male, of course, pretend they are celibate, and have no desire to have children at all.

So, Pell's life is one without purpose, yet the Vatican generally, as we all know from so many years of gutter exposures of their base behaviour-presumably somewhat distant from the gods they aspire to serve- are most certainly "without constraints".

Al must be thinking of the sex parties and orgies the sexually repressed get into all the time, from the fundie end of town.

I don't think I've ever even got a whiff of a sex party going on amongst the filthy evil atheists I know, and have known over many years.

But he is right about the undue influence of those horrible xtian pressure groups, changing laws all the time to take us all back to pre-Enlightenment days.

I suppose only someone who has been to a sex party, or watched any pornography, could tell whether or not they were 'coarse', so I'll defer to Al's greater experiences there, and accept that Al thought they were when he was there, so that's good enough for me too.

And I do agree with him that those xtian groups who seek to change laws are indeed sleazy, in fact, I'd say they are VERY sleazy.

I thought Jesus wanted to change the world, and that other fella, the Muslim guy, didn't he want the world changed too?

Probably all commos too.

runner, Thursday, 9 December 2010 1:42:23 PM

That assumes a degree of clearing - optimal or not - would have stopped the fires starting or spreading: a pretty big assumption. Your statement was not scientifically speaking, either.

Pell ... what a disgrace to the human race he is ! ! !

He has been in a position where he could have done so much good, but all that has sprouted from his mouth has been divisive and self-righteous rubbish.

History will judge him very harshly.

BTW: Great article, Chrys.

What a story! It amazes me how good (fairly ordinary) people can be vilified by an eminent (hopefully, not ordinary) person of the type of Herr Pell.
No more to be said, except to praise Chrys S. for her article.
"Good on 'ya!"
by,
Justmick.

I don't think Cardinal Pell is a good example of religion as the foundation for better humanity; I suspect him more of encouraging a sense of belonging and superiority amongst conservative Catholics by assuring them of how much worse people aren't conservative Catholics are. It's not a tactic unique to Catholics, having been lectured on the evils of Catholics, Mormons and Muslims etc by adherents of other varieties of religious belief. The most dislike - blurring into quite slanderous accusations - seemed not to be aimed at atheism but at other forms of religion. In a sense atheism is a less controversial target for criticism from Pell who has to be smart enough to avoid incitement of religious hatred.

There are certainly better examples of worthwhile attitudes allied to religious belief than that expressed by Cardinal Pell - showing compassion, giving charity, supporting education without turning it into opportunity to proselytize. I think that the religious, especially the narrow minded kind that condemns or dismisses the views of those that disagree with them could do with a bit more humanistic scepticism and critical thinking and less fervent faith.

There can be religious reasons for compassion and charity outside the family, clan, or tribe but religions don't have a monopoly. As the article shows, atheists do it too and probably with more interest in evidence based achievement of objectives.

Religions not only do not have a monopoly, they don't even have a solid basis for anything of any value in the first place.

Pell should be on charges of being a pig-ignorant ar seole in the first place, followed up by being a promoter of total ignorance as a way of life.

I've just been to a Catholic funeral... 'Jesus', if I can use that phrase here, but its full of mumbo along with good guidance for getting over a sad event.

But why bother with the mumbo?

To control people in moments of sadness during their 'normal' life.

To HELL with PELL.

The Cardinal is not a very Christian man: I recommend he reads Sam Harris's "The Moral Landscape" and meditate on what goodness means and go to confession. It doesn't mean making nasty general comments about people who don't happen to share his belief system [this is Jim, Chrys]

My only complaint about the blog is the stupid Scientology Advertisement that has been popping up in front of my eyes. It's just irritating.

Ah, Graeme's clever marketing ploy, eh?

What a hoot!

OLO places an ad' that no one on this thread could possibly want to read.

Let's hope the advertiser doesn't pay on clicks.

I'm so immune to ads that I never even noticed what it was, or that it was there.