LOL

Some people really do have too much time on their hands

I can empathize with the author and sense their oppression.

I also have problems deciding what clothes and colours to wear.

I was waiting for the bit that links the colour pink to genitals and reducing little girls to a potential sex object.

It's articles like this that prove we have equality. When you're stressing about colours you're really clutching at straws.

I love theories like this. In response I always relate the explination of pool I heard in a movie once. It's racial. The aim of the game is for the good 'white' ball to sink all the other 'colours', with the greatest prize to sink the black ball. This all comes about because of the white man's fear of the potency of black balls!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX8cIdXlHuU

MMmm suck on those chocolate salty balls, put-em-in-your-mouth-and-suck-em.

But I digress.

I think the phenomena described is really about the fear and shame of people thinking your little girl is so ugly as to be assumed a boy. This is a symptom of our misandrist society.

BTW: Once girls get to about 5-8 they desire everything they have to be purple.

sweetheart, it aint worth bothering about; girls and boys will turn out the way their genetics determine. Pink or blue baby knickers wont change a thing in the long run

Oh, and when it comes to nurture vs nature, I have already described how it works elsewhere.

When discussing something negative for men, it's nature. When discussing something negative for women, it's conditioning. When discussing something positive for women, it's nature, unless in the context of women being treated differently, then it's conditioning. When discussing something positive for men, it's conditioning.

So, if a man commits a violent crime, it's the violent nature of men. Ditto wars. The expectation is that with women holding all the positions of power there would be no war.

If a man achieves in a leadership role, invents cures for cancer, does anything else good, it's conditioning. Women could achieve the same given the same conditioning and opportunities.

If a woman is looking to get custody, children are better off with the nature of the nurturing mother. But this nurturing is conditioning in the context of any gender pay gap, and women who choose not to work are only more interested in mothering due to conditioning.

We all seem to have been sucked in by pink - just look at all those sportsmen wearing pink to support breast cancer research. Nothing against BCR, but surely men have an under-researched cancer of their own to support. What colour for prostate cancer research eh? Don't know? Me neither.

My least favourite colour is Barbie pink - but she wasn't always that way and I expect pink will have its day and we can all move on. I am far more concerned about little girls wearing come-hither clothes, makeup and heeled shoes.

Houel:”I think the phenomena described is really about the fear and shame of people thinking your little girl is so ugly as to be assumed a boy.”

Bingo. But parents don’t know their baby is ugly, they can’t see it, must be some kind of biological thing.

Houel:”If a woman is looking to get custody, children are better off with the nature of the nurturing mother. But this nurturing is conditioning in the context of any gender pay gap, and women who choose not to work are only more interested in mothering due to conditioning.”

Works for me, least some are still interested in it.

I have always said (having dressed many a baby) that girls own pink and boys own all the other colours. I didn’t know it was a big deal but then I never looked for a big deal. My own daughter looked stunning in black but it’s not an easy to find colour in baby clothing.

Wish they had written about physical play, people are much rougher with baby boys although baby girls love really physical play too. And little boys love playing with toy kitchens and dolls same as girls.

Which brings me to a 6 year old male foster child that I knew, liked wearing dresses and high heeled shoes, pushing about a toy pram, also liked cars and classically labeled boy things as well.

Shrink told his carers to take away all the female toys he liked and replace them with trucks and only allow him boy things, when I asked the carers “WHY?” It had been explained to them in simple terms…. If a child liked stabbing people would you give him a knife?

Huh?

I agree Candide, little girls dressed as small hookers bothers me no end, I think it is like not knowing you have an ugly baby, the parents think they look cute.

TPP,

"And little boys love playing with toy kitchens and dolls the same as girls."

Too true - and it's because small humans instinctively want to emulate the actions of the grown-ups around them...that's the way that children learn. So while a boy child is young and in a domestic setting, it is reasonable to suppose that he would wish to do those things..very basic human nature.

As for tarting up young girls, it does seem to be a particularly modern phenomenon. It seems that there isn't much opportunity to just be a kid anymore - clad in pink or otherwise. It's interesting also to see how popular girls dolls have been reformed to resemble street walkers with attitude...mmm, where do we go from here?

Monica says:

"When my daughter was born I was given a baby dress that had pink sequins"

MONICA (in my minds eye) Then I grabbed it, scrunched it up, took it to the footpath outside the Melbourne Club, and after stomping on it while holding my 'END SEXISM' sign, I then set it alight to my chant of:

"WHAT DO I WANT?"

"NOoooooo SEXISM !"

"WHEN TO WE WANT IT?"

"NOWwwwwwww"

Of course I had to say all parts myself, because all passers by just looked at me as if my brain had been fried in the microwave.

The video will be on youtube 2night.

Whatever happened to tomboys? You just don't see them any more.

I take it Monica would like little boys to have frilly undies. Please give us a break from this rubbish.

Jeez benk, they aren’t tomboys anymore they are vicious little psychos. They fight boys and each other with fists and weapons, what they lack in the hormone department they make up for in pure nastiness.

Course the boys are just as bad in the way they hunt for a fight and aren’t happy until they find one although a lot of them now have had to drop “don’t hit girls” for their own protection.

It might have something to do with the dolls dressed as street walkers with attitude.

I always think of it terms of the really camp gay men, they generally act like catty ho’s. I always wondered if they did because they think that is what being a female is to them?

Our tomboys have stepped it up. They don’t just wear trousers and climb trees they wear knuckle dusters and swear worse than sailors.

Maybe they heard about amazon women but probably spent too much time watching Lara Croft.

I better announce I know about the others kids, they love being active and respect other people. Being a tomboy for them is still about having fun even if you are only supposed to have it if you are a boy.

Is it my imagination, or is this self-contradictory.

"If a custom becomes near universal there is a danger that we stop noticing it, so we never consider whether there might be an alternative. The colour coding of baby girls and toddlers is becoming such a custom; one that says a great deal about the way we socialise our children and what we teach them about gender."

On the one hand, the author wants us to believe that we no longer give the matter any serious thought - that we "stop noticing it", in fact.

On the other hand, this lack of interest "says a great deal about the way we socialise our children and what we teach them about gender."

The only "great deal" that I can think of, is that we are socializing them to be indifferent to clothes colour (as we ourselves are), and furthermore, we are teaching them that the gender stereotype of clothes colour is nothing to which should be given any serious thought.

(Works for me, by the way.)

Given that it is the punchline of the article, it is somewhat ambiguous. Which goes some way towards explaining the lack of gravity in the article as a whole.

Haha Piper,

I've dressed my daughter in all black before and I reckon she looked awesome! She was a miniature French chique movie chick. Got some strange looks though maybe some of the mothers thought I was raising an emo. They obviously don't know her character.

'
It might have something to do with the dolls dressed as street walkers with attitude.

Like Bratz (which I call Slutz) dolls?

'Wish they had written about physical play, people are much rougher with baby boys although baby girls love really physical play too. And little boys love playing with toy kitchens and dolls same as girls. '

I don't know. I used to think that, but my daughter is obsessed with prams and babies even before my wife had a second. And instead of watching the rugby she just dances to the Haka then goes away once the game starts. The haka really is pretty girlie. But all the little boys I know, only 1 of them likes anything to do with dolls and their mothers have babies in the house. They all want to throw stuff and bash trucks together.

She is a lot rougher with me than I am with her. She's merciless and doesn't care where her feet are stamping when she attacks me. Maybe I'm turning her into a butch lesbian because I don't have any boys to wrestle with. But it wears her out and she goes to sleep easier, something my partner doesn't seem to get.

Houellie,

"Like Bratz (which I call Slutz) dolls?
Yeah, exactly like that. (I call them Tartz)

My daughter was totally into Lego when she was young...all the pirate stuff and knights and castles. They didn't have much in a line of "feminine" Lego then. I've noticed, however, that they do these days - and most of it is pink.

Why has there been such unmitigated nastiness in response to this essay?

After all she is not inciting anyone to commit acts of nastiness, nor is there any nastiness in her essay.

Who knows she may be on to something really important about our understanding of sexuality and gender in 2010. There is a huge amount of ignorance and confusion re this very important matter. The popularity of Vampire films and novels is also indicative of this confusion.

This is a very important matter because our emotional-sexual patterning, and our social indoctrination by the media, especially TV, determines how we respond to quite literally every body and every thing, with no exceptions.

I would suggest that in one way or another this pinkification process is very much related to the sexualization and pornification of everything, especially of little girls. Pornification brought to one and all by TV and "girls" magazine such as Teen Magazine and Girlfriend (published of course by "conservative" media interests)

This is a send up yeah?!

Good griefness. Pink is just a colour. Wear pink, don't wear pink - it doesn't matter.

Will there be an anti-pink movement funded by government to ensure girls are no longer stereotyped by this insidious colour. Some evidence based policy found in comments like "isn't she a pretty one" to justify a new schools based programs for boys and girls where there will be a requirement for 50/50 boys/girls in blue/pink. Where does the madness end?

So what if girls and boys are stereotyped somewhat by coloured clothing. Girls and boys are different. Are we going to become some bland milk society where we won't be satisfied until we are all homogenous robots.

Then we will have articles decrying the lack of individualism and whatever happend to Pink? And thus the roundabout begins again.

C'mon this was a send up really wasn't it?

But Poirot,

the pink lego was brought in by feminists because the harsh masculine functional lego was thought to be a barrier to the caring nurturing (superior) nature of women being allowed fully into the male-dominated domain of building houses and spaceships.

Why cant girls build something not about nasty male war and tall phallic symbol buildings was the cry!

It's a bit rich now to then blame men for patronising girls with pink lego. The serious hard-core stuff is still available to them.

HoHum,

'The popularity of Vampire films and novels is also indicative of this confusion.'
There's no confusion. I think it's pure honesty of the sexual lust of women for The Beast. Taming him with feminine ways and desire, and at the same time abrogating all responsibility for having slutty thoughts.

As for the rest about indoctrination, do you think that if the media decided being gay was cool (hang on... thinking of all the reality TV hosts) that people would change their sexual orientation.

Nope, the media mirrors us. It serves us and it is desperate to give us what we want so we will buy stuff. We want sex!

pelican,

'C'mon this was a send up really wasn't it?'

Oh, if only. It is the state of feminism today. I think it's instructive though, that pink is assumed by the author as derogatory or limiting. The alternate assumption could easily be made that boys are being denied the most desirable colour, because they are not deemed worthy of it. Through a feminist eyes, the whole game really is one of grass is greener. ie penis envy.

The research method suggests it is a send-up.

Next article will be devoted to power-dressing for girl babies. A return to the Eighties, with the Gridiron shoulder pads and pin stripes or strong colours, red, blue, green and yellow.

Then the television soaps can pick it up and run with it. Are Dysentry and Dullas still on the Box? Remember the power dressing, Yikes! Oprah and Ellen (no men please) DeGeneres can give away power-dressed dolls.

Young women everywhere are waiting on tenterhooks for the next fashion statement from the feminists. Yeah, right.

Roll on 1980, er, 2011.

It hasn't always been the case that blue is for boys and pink is for girls. That happened in the 1950s. Earlier though, from the 1920's to 1950's, it was pink for boys and sky blue for girls. Sky blue was considered too feminine where as pink was strong and vibrant. Earlier still and it was white until they were old enough to wear the same as adults but in a child's size, obviously.

I should also point out that at 2 years old, the child is aware of gender differences and that they belong to one of those genders. It is at that time that the toddler begins to reject those items, including colour, from the other gender and gravitating towards those things that are stereotypically of their gender.

Ultimately, who cares what colour is the colour of baby/toddler gender identification and preference.

It isn't the case that girls are restricted to pink either, there has always been a lot of white, cream and pastels including lemon, blue, yellow and green. These light hues are excellent choices to display fine embroidery, lace and ribbon, and to improve the photographs (baby skin and hair tones).

The main reason why there is a lot of pink and blue from some (usually cheap) sources is because it is easier for the shopkeeper to restrict lines, not because of demand. In fact one often hears of frustrated parents, relatives and friends trying to find something apart from the usual predictable designs and colours.

At least there is some choice for girls, for boys the opposite often applies.

Houel:”The haka really is pretty girlie.”

Good lord Houel, thank goodness you are anon. How about we never teach little Houelette the words in English though eh.

Funny you mention how rough your girl plays; we have the same problem here. The boys seem to understand better how to “play” rough while the girls just go at it. And yes you poor men when they don’t care where they put their feet. And yes yes I can’t help it I giggle every time it happens and all thoughts of penis envy evaporate.

I don’t have lego anymore (small bits and chocking etc) I do have Dora and Diego. Dora has a house and pram and twin siblings to look after. Diego has awesome jungle hideout with a spotty cat thing and a monkey and a vehicle. Course both cost far too much money.

Slutz dolls I wont have in the house, including Barbie and her gay friend Ken.

Corn:”At least there is some choice for girls, for boys the opposite often applies.”

In clothing? I think things are pretty equal in the clothing battle of the sexes, unless you wanted a man bra or something. They are tricky to find.

Oh please - not pink Leggo! Or purple. Or brown.

The pinkification of girls is denying little boys the chance to wear it too - and some of them look great in pink. At least boys never get to wear those hideous baby head bands, which look like a ribbon on an egg. They do, however, get kitted out in the dreariest sludge colours, which is probably acting as a depressant - article anyone?

Women talking about women. Again.

Well dane, the competitiveness that women feel for one another extends to the produce of their bodies and no, it is not rooted in an androcentric social system, quite the opposite I would think. The author is putting the slipper into other women telling them how superior she is to them because they are allegedly doing wrong by The Sisterhood.

This is why young women fly from these feminist dinosaurs, because they are forever being criticised and patronised by the angry old fusspots and being told to feel thankful. How can one get any more petty than to have a pink fit over a colour and to sledge young mothers for not making their own children's wear - because that is what it takes to increase their choice where the major suppliers have limited lines.

Again, will the 'real' feminists please stand up.

I sincerely hope this is intended as a spoof.

If not the author is one sad puppy.

Poor Monica, all that outrage and nothing to aim it at.

I think pink is one of the lesser emcumbences children have. What about their religion being decided for them, what colour is that.

Made me think of 'Rob Roy' where all the male aristocrats were dressed up in pomp and ceremonial makeup, frilly shirts and emobroidered coats. They were very pretty indeed with their white curly wigs.

Fashions come and go but men and women will still be different no matter how we try to re-package the goods.

Pink is pretty but I dont like her music much and i think she's a lezzo but that dont matter

cornflower,

I agree. Women dress for themselves not for men. But when you wrote 'androcentric social system' are you sure you didn't mean 'misandrist social system'?

After all, it was 29 men who were killed in a NZ mine doing hard, dirty and dangerous work. Just 29 of the thousands killed each year doing work that women almost never do. Yet all feminists can do is carry on about babies wearing pink clothes.

Really, it would be nice if feminists would just grow up.

And then even people like you call this an androcentric society. Yet those miners almost certainly had insurance which means their families will live very comfortably for the rest of their lives. I'm sure that's how those men would want it but it really shows the difference between the sexes. Men work in dirty and dangerous jobs to support their families happy in the knowledge that if something happens to them their families will be looked after while women just write endless stories about women.

Dane:”After all, it was 29 men who were killed in a NZ mine doing hard, dirty and dangerous work. Just 29 of the thousands killed each year doing work that women almost never do. Yet all feminists can do is carry on about babies wearing pink clothes.”

Hahaha.

You want a pi$$ing contest over which gender is more hard done by in the pink thread?

Huggins I can't confrim or deny your suspicions about Pink.

TPP,

29 men killed and you write.. 'Hahah'.

You must really hate men.

dane,

On the contrary - it was you who sought to utilise this tragedy as a drum to beat out your usual anti-women rhetoric.

And Monica's still very concerned about the implications of pink knickers, You go grrrlll....

I was only laughing at one man dane, who used them and disrespected them by bringing them into this thread.

That’s Ms Dux to you Anti.

I am sitting here in my pink jammies. :P

Well, I'd like Ms Dux to know that I'm in the pink too this morning. A red shirt somehow found its way into my whites, so it's pink reggies for a while.

I hope I manage to bear up under the social pressure.

Mothers often let their daughters hair grow really long, but cut the poor boy's hair short. This is a human rights issue.

It's the cutification, or barberification of boys!

Also, girls can wear pants or skirts, but no mothers let their little boys wear skirts, except for anti's mum that is.

So now we have the deskirtification of boys!

The insidious apartheid of skirts!

Houellebecq:"except for anti's mum that is."

Yeah, but she was of Scots descent.

Thankyou for proving how misandrist how society has become.

TPP,

I might have brought them into this thread but it was you who disrespected them. 29 men are killed and you say you are sitting in your 'pink jammies'. You really have no shame.

Poirot,

The women who posted after you prove my point nicely. I point out the dangers men face for their families while women sit at home in their pink jammies and then your fellow travellers go on to belittle and disparage them in a pretty horrible way.

Men do society's dirty and dangerous jobs (even giving up their lives if necessary) while women debate the 'serious' issues like the 'pinkification of girls'. Occasionally, even us men think it would be nice to live the life of frivolity women enjoy - getting all the rights with none of the responsibility - but then at the end of the day I think men are thankful we don't remain children all our lives like women. Someone has to be the adult.

dane just how do you think you are helping the discussion but broad brushed attacks on women?

R0bert

OK Moncia,

Time to 'fess up.

This thread is an experiment. You wanted to see how OLO posters would respond to a nonsense thread.

dane,

If you wish simplistically (and laughably) to imagine that most women sit around in their pink jammies not taking "responsibility" - that is your prerogative.
The fact that many men undertake dirty and dangerous work is to their credit, and not something to be used to lever a wedge between the genders - especially in a situation that has resulted in a tragic loss of life - one that you chose to further your own agenda.
I find it difficult to separate your own constant vilification of women from the similarly couched rants of over-the-top feminists.

Dane:”I might have brought them into this thread but it was you who disrespected them. 29 men are killed and you say you are sitting in your 'pink jammies'. You really have no shame.”

Don’t you ever talk about my jammies!

Which are my favs even though I know with my skin tone looks better in blue. They’re some silky thin material and the top is a little spaghetti strap item, the bottoms are kinda low cut and they are terrible for actually sleeping in when it’s this hot but good for swanning about the house in. They’re the sort of jammies you wished you had when younger and going on sleep overs. I love my pink jammies dane.

Anti:”I hope I manage to bear up under the social pressure.”

Just promise me you didn’t have a thin black leather tie, white jacket and black trousers that went with the red shirt to begin with.

Wish you guys were here, neighbor is throwing bricks on the road and screaming obsenities at me. He's very very drunk, and I am home alone (not for long though). Err... maybe he saw my jammies?

"neighbor is throwing bricks on the road and screaming obsenities at me" - oh lucky you. I'd been not overly thrilled about changes of neighbors which had happened this year, had the loveliest neighbors for years and the couple in there now have a had a few late night arguments which apart from keeping me awake are just unpleasant.

Visiting elsewhere recently and the people down the street are standing around on the edge of the street watching a couple of 4wd's doing donuts on the road right near them (one woman holding an baby at the time). The next step was smoking the tires in the driveway. Compared to that and the sort of neighbor who stands around throwing bricks and yelling obscenities I like my neighbors lot's.

R0bert

"donuts....smoking tyres on the driveway"

4wds?! Get away with you, can you swear that on your pinkie? Next it will be Hyundai Getz doing burn-outs and drag races.

That is what happens when pink gets out of control, the Butterfly Effect, absolute chaos.

Swear to god my neighbour has some fluro pink item on. Like a road workers waist coat thingi.

Who knew... it's never been men or women - it is pink!

Was it Ludwig who said that up until the 50's boys wore it? Isn't that when it all started going wrong for men and the womens got meaner?

poirot,
You try to paint it as an illegitimate comparison. But just because you find it uncomfortable or inconvenient doesn't mean it isn't true.

Perhaps you can tell me the last time 29 women gave their lives working for their families?

Why is it men are just expected to give their lives but when the issue is raised women try to belittle and minimize it? Why is so hard for women to admit any sort of male virtue?

TPP, anti and Co,
I've never seen your type of callousness on OLO before. Are you women's studies graduates?

Dane:”TPP, anti and Co,
I've never seen your type of callousness on OLO before. Are you women's studies graduates?”

You should read more I’ve seen Anti be heaps more callous. :P

And you my little hypocrite; you should never have mentioned any current tragedy in this thread and certainly not one that affected people who would consider this thread a bloody joke.

Dane:"TPP, anti and Co,
I've never seen your type of callousness on OLO before. Are you women's studies graduates"

Yay! I've found a new type of callous. I wonder if it can be made in pink?

Dane, there is a thread about the miners. I agree with you that their deaths were sad and I agree with your point about the relative seriousness of being prepared to die on the job and being concerned about buying the right shade in baby clothes.

OTOH, I see no reason to be maudlin about it. I'll leave that to Monica, who can cry into her Chardy (not Rose, no,no,no) all she likes.

TPP:"I’ve seen Anti be heaps more callous."

Aw, ta hon.

Antiseptic and TPP,

I take back what I've said about women being unfunny. You two are hilarious. Anti, anyone who can pull out a double entrentre on a 'chardy' joke is bound to be a hit on the stand up circuit. You can join the other middle aged women who talk about....being a woman (and drinking 'chardy').

People will love it. The condescending and dismissive attitudes towards men will go down a treat on the university circuit.

TPP, university students will especially like it when you tell men what they can or can't mention and then call them a hyprcrite for no apparent reason. Hyprocrite is a big word. They probably won't understand it but they'll assume it's derisory and applaud all the same.

dane you really need to have a bit better look at Antiseptic's posting history (although your description of her is probably causing a few accidents around the place with coffee and keyboards).

Now we just need runner to join in attacking Anti over her strong feminist stance and possible role in the gender studies department at some university to top it off.

It's posts like that last one of your which make OLO such a hoot at times.

R0bert

Haw, haw , haw!

Antiseptic is a women's studies student! Now I geddit, Anti's a lezzo spurned by her hairy arm pitted, docs wearing girly friend who took Anti's fave Harley and tooled up the freeway to Sydney.

I don't see where pink fits into any of this - but thanks to Monica for the entertaining thread.

BTW what is it with extremely wealthy men wearing pink cashmere sweaters? Just a thought.

Every culture has traditional colors - different colors for different occasions.

Pink generally represents love and romance.

Blue generally represents Calm, loyalty and harmony.

Take from that what you will.

Personally I have always disliked pink, but do love to see little girls dressed in cute "pink" tones.

My daughter was never the "pink" frilly type of little girl - she loved mixing it up with her older and younger brother.

It doesnt appear to have affected her sense of self.

I agree with the posters who say that "sexualising" our little ones is far more detrimental than the actual "color" they wear.

Dressing little girls and boys like miniture adults.

Children are no longer allowed to be children.

Looks like I missed a lively debate here!
I'll just note, en passant, that Poirot wins the prise, for my money, for best mixed metaphor of the month with his: "to lever a wedge".
Best stick to solving crimes, Poirot, what! :-)

Squeers:"Looks like I missed a lively debate here!"

Sadly, pink is a very washed-out Red in search of a proletariat.

No work for you here, comrade.

Dear Squeers,

Thanks for that?

I had no idea that Graham was employing metaphor police around here.

Just as well you have an eagle eye for such stylistically objectionable blunders or it might have gone completely unnoticed.