Houlley
"Do women possess the 'gumption'? Why should men be braver than women? Is it mens job to protect women?"

Without generalising, the assumption is that women are already anti-sexual harrassment and many are showing some gumption by making complaints in the face of ridicule and derision. That is also very brave.

One day it won't be seen as brave, but just part of the normal process in saying "some behaviour is not acceptable". Until then...well it will take men and women to step up to the plate.

It is not men's jobs to protect women but it is nice when they do if the situation merits. I don't see the world in terms of "someone's" job but if someone is weaker (physically) and another person intervenes when they see a bully at work it is usually appreciated by men and women alike.

People are who they are and will act according to character - it is not about assigning 'jobs'.

The author is saying that to combat a problem it will take everyone and that means men and women.

Most civilized societies do not condone unacceptable forms of behaviour such as rape, sexism, racism, crime, violence, or sexual harrassment.

Strictly speaking many norms are not regarded as particularly important, and nonconformity to them may be tolerated or even ignored.
The social reaction you get if you turn up late for appointments, don't eat three meals a day, or occassionally wear mismatched socks is very different from the reaction you get if you mug an old lady in the street, participate in orgies, or announce that you are Napoleon.

Minor deviations from norms, or deviations from norms that nobody bothers much about, have few if any social consequences and are not of particular sociological interest.

What is primarily being talked about here however is violations that are considered offensive by a large number of people.

And that should be of equal concern to both genders.

Lexi

Yes, some blokes have a sex drive and see some women as potential partners. Him wanting her to do something doesn't necessarily equal control. You ask people to do stuff without facing this criticism and I want the same right. If you want men to contribute to gendered debates, you need to stop excluding us by interpreting any comment we make about any woman as him wanting to control her.

"Almost unanimously, people declare that uninvited and unwanted sexual advances make them feel trapped, defeated, intimated, or demeaned." You meant "usually make them feel trapped, defeated, or demeaned." The same behaviour is judged differently on different occasions.

The issue under discussion is sexual harassment and it should be of concern to both genders as I've stated several times. Surveys have indicated that victims do not enjoy the attention, they do not find it easy to deal with, and that the behaviour is not considered trivial by the victims.

Sexual harassment either in the workplace or elsewhere in society should be taken seriously by both genders. The norms of this kind of
interaction requires both men and women to get involved in stopping behaviour that is both offensive and harmful

Lexi I think both men and women are already involved in stopping it and speaking out against it.

The point's being made can I think be summed up as
- Men who are not involved in sexual harassment bear no more responsibility for it than women who are not involved. Flood appear to think differently.
- It's only harassment if the recipient does not like it, that does not mean that the same behaviours will not be liked by others or even rewarded. Many women still expect/demand that men take the initiative yet get very upset when men get it wrong.
- One of the concerns is of scope creep, the definitions might be about repeated unwanted attention but some start to leave out the repeated portion or vary other parts of it to suit their own issues.
- Flood has a history of attacking men. I and others don't recall him ever raising the same kind of points about the responsibilities of women. We are just a little bit over his tactics.

Genuine sexual harassment would be a horrifying thing when it occurs just as most harassment's are horrible to be on the wrong end of. To some extent we are unlikely to be ever totally free of some regardless of cultural values.

Continuing to push the cultural reshaping approach too hard can bring about it's own grief's. There are some pretty funny feminist jokes around about men, should I be upset by them or laugh along with the funny ones? Some of the issues come from societies odd mixed standards about sex and sexuality. There are still a bunch of hangup's and relics of past damaged values impacting on how well people deal with sexuality. If we want an end to harassment the steps should include moving forward from some of the hang up's.

R0bert

Lexi, we have been over this issue of sexual harassment in many different threads before on OLO, and these guys will NEVER change their mind about the nasty women of the world being the cause of all men's bad behaviour and situations.

I live in hope though ...sigh :)

Houellebecq, <"But what about women who only observe sexual harassment of other women? Aren't they under the same obligation as men to speak up?"
Of course they are...and you know it. No one here has ever said they don't.

<"And if so, why does the author state it's a mens issue and men hold all the responsibility?"

The author doesn't state anything of the sort. It is definitely a problem everyone has to work together to deal with.

The author correctly believes that the majority of sexual harassment of workmates is carried out by men, so naturally he wanted to concentrate on trying to change their behaviours by using other men and women to shame them into behaving properly.

It sounds perfectly logical to me.

I am only glad the author is male, because any female who wrote the article would have been soundly flogged by the keyboards of many of our posters!