Very well written Dan. I myself am a survivor of depression attempting suicide 5 times in my teens. I have since come to master the 'Black Dog' but I am one of the lucky ones. Suicide should be talked about - anyone who says that it may promote copy-cat's DOES NOT know what they are talking about. Yes, there will always be that one or two who follow, but there will always be far, far more who will be helped by the simple knowledge that 'you are not alone', let alone what help they may receive from the wider community. I would have been far better off if I knew back then what I do now.

It is my strongest conviction that it should be mandatory for all people to learn about depression and suicide, to learn the warning signs and how to help. I have placed my name down for the ASIST (Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training) course run through LifeLine Australia and I encourage everyone else to do the same. My mother, a teacher herself, has already completed the course and could not talk it up enough.

Depression, Suicide and Mental Illness should be centre stage in our society - not at liberty to kill indiscriminately in the shadows.

One factor that leads to teenage suicide is the uncertain sexuality or homosexuality of some teenagers and the resultant teasing or bullying by other students. Who can the student turn to? Parents may have disapproving attitudes. The school chaplain provided by the fundamentalist Scripture Union may mouth the Biblical injunctions favoured by fundamentalists and increase the student's feelings of inadequacy or guilt. That may tip the student over the edge.

To fight that demon replace the chaplains with trained counsellors who are equipped to deal with those feelings or with other feelings that can lead to suicide.

Depression is the most common of mental illnesses, but society as a whole pretends it's not there. To deny the elephant in the living room says a lot about how healthy our society really is.

Depression is a taboo subject, in the same category as incest, pornography, domestic violence, and abortion and euthanasia.

By staying in a state of denial, the whole of society is poisoning itself by saying it cares not a whit for its most vulnerable victims. Such a civilisation is hardly worth standing up for.

davidf in his usual manner makes the ridiculous link with chaplaincy and suicide. Much more likely the permissive view of secularism which leads to the degrading of young boys and girls contributes to the much higher rates of suicide than ever before. The lack of sexual morals re enforced by the porn industry rather than the guidance of decent values is much more the culprit than Davidf's bandwagon. The breakdown of the family unit, sexual immorality, sexual and emotional abuse by predominantly step parents and the lack of boundaries has proven an absolute disaster for young people needing guidance and acceptance. When clear moral guidelines were given the suicide rate was much lower. The number of boys topping themselves because of relationship breakdown( largely because people can't be faithful anymore) is extremely high. I have seen it many times over.

Runner: davidf in his usual manner makes the ridiculous link with chaplaincy and suicide. Much more likely the permissive view of secularism which leads to the degrading of young boys and girls contributes to the much higher rates of suicide than ever before.

Hmm... The Christian Teleban always go straight for the throat & accuse secularism of all the ill of society. Where-as I believe in the old saying, "Curiosity killed the cat, information brought it back."

I also believe that nature has a way of dealing with the unfit. One of those ways is suicide. Therefore, I know it's sad , but suicide is natures way of eliminating problems within nature. Nature knows best.

The Greenies should go along with this as they exhort being one with nature.

It's the Politically Correct sookies that start crying & beating their chests that make the problem worse. They also seem to be the type of people that are most likely to commit suicide. Thankfully.

The question is, Why should society try to protect the unfit from themselves? The kindest thing to do is to allow them to achieve their aim. Society, then doesn't have to spend millions looking after them. This money could then be channeled into educating the naturally fit to enhance society.

Hard? Yes, but then, so is nature.

I wonder what impact the legalisation of assisted suicide/ euthanasia would have on this?

Jayb

'I also believe that nature has a way of dealing with the unfit. One of those ways is suicide. '

I doubt whether my workmates (who shot himself for reasons I listed) mum would agree with your synopsis. However you are right to point out that the denial of the obvious (a Creator) leads many to your conclusion. It is very sick indeed to conclude that suicide is natural.

Some years ago I read a book about brain function, written by
Susan Greenfield, that well known neuroscientist. She mentioned
that repeated use of Extacy destroy/damage those parts of the brain
which manufacture/release serotonin.

I found that interesting, as a friend of mine who has done
surveys of prisoners wanting to commit suicide, found a direct
correlation between brain serotonin levels and suicide attempts.

So do those Ekky parties, so popular amongst teenagers, have
something to do with teen suicide levels?

Its possible, perhaps somebody here knows of any studies done.

Runner: It is very sick indeed to conclude that suicide is natural.

I didn't conclude that, Nature did.

I have sympathy for your workmates mum. Yes, we all feel a loss when someone dies. Whether it be from the natural cause of time or from the natural elimination of the unfit, for whatever reason nature chooses.

Runner: However you are right to point out that the denial of the obvious (a Creator) leads many to your conclusion.

I have never denied a Creator. I just happen to believe that that Creator is Nature. Pushing any "Dogma" is not nature & is therefore doomed by nature to fail in the long run.

Unfortunately it is a mixture of media and of society itself that is to blame; the portrayal and tremendous emphasis children are bombarded with of social cliques, physical appearance, cultural norms and who belongs to the mainstream and who is outcast to the fringes- and the general grumpy anti-social attitude at least half of society gives off would make the lives of those who don't quite fit in a very adverse and horrible place to live.
Basically welcome to nobody unless they give up who they are and be like somebody else? Not everyone can do that.

All of the lip-service about "diversity" and "embracing individuality" they read as the rubbish that it is- most people are quite intolerant to those who they perceive to not be like them.

It does correspond strongly to countries with a strong sense of collective conformity and stigma towards individual difference. Also corresponding to extreme social demands that are perceived to be expected of children in the outside world that they believe they cannot live up to.

It was probably Marylin Manson that summed up the situation best about the murder-suicide boys from the Columbine High School (who gunned down their classmates before killing themselves).

Until society changes, my suggestion is to help suicidal teens to simply learn of more options about their life and future, friendships with more accepting people (more than they would think), and to be able to carry their individuality in a way that could actually help them- and provide practical real examples so it doesn't rub off as "if you are really good, one day karma will reward you".

There IS a world they can embrace out there, and it is easy to reach- the problem is when you live in an oppressive local environment you just don't see it, or know how to get it.

Jayb

'I didn't conclude that, Nature did.;

I take it if you were to counsel someone considering topping themselves you would advise them to let nature to take its course? Then again you might not intervene in the course of nature? What if your child is being taken by a shark? Would you let ,nature. have his/her way? I am sure their are many grateful parents who have had friends, family and even chaplains who have talked some sense into someone depressed due to a boyfriend/girlfriend break up or some other cause.

Runner:I take it if you were to counsel someone considering topping themselves you would advise them to let nature to take its course?

I'd give them options. Such as, "Well she gets to live & you die, Who benifits there?" or, well if you consider it's the best course of action, but it's up to you. I don't care one way or the other. Some others might, like your mum but if you don't care about your mum or your friends. Go ahead." I wouldn't say,"don't do it."

Runner: Then again you might not intervene in the course of nature? What if your child is being taken by a shark? Would you let ,nature. have his/her way?

Different senario. Not suicide. I'd help anyone in trouble. & I'm not even a Christian Teleban.

Runner: I am sure their are many grateful parents who have had friends, family and even chaplains who have talked some sense into someone depressed due to a boyfriend/girlfriend break up or some other cause.

Therein lies the difference. It's in the, 'getting of wisdom.' If they don't, "stiff chedda." They didn't deserve to live. Same goes for thoes who jump into creeks without looking first, hooligans who crash their cars, etc. They remove themselves form the gene pool of life. Much to the betterment of mankind.

Having volunteered on school councils and the like over many years what I have heard about and witnessed time and time again is youth exhibiting problems early in schooling (eg years 3-5), but the inadequacy, lack of continuity and often unsuitability of the 'help' offered inevitably resulting in the youth falling through the cracks, being lost to education and in some cases becoming a social recluse or a suicide statistic.

I do not believe that the sort of counselling offered in most schools is at all successful and in some cases is probably counterproductive. Lateral thinking is required because most of what has been attempted or set in place over the years is a waste of money. To be frank, I am sure that hiring some trained young people to be big brothers/sisters, visit, sit, walk with and just be an ear (as needed) for many of these young students would be infinitely better than what is offered at present. Subject of course to professional (medical) case management as required.

As well, there needs to be schools where the academic factory production line is not the first concern but rather good people making and encouragement to enjoy life are the aims instead.

I do not believe that a solution will be found in the departments of education because of the politics involved.

The answer to 'deadly demons' is the name/power of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps our traditional 'values' have been emptied out into the sewer and replaced by decaying rotting ideological tidbits** which seem fine to those who are scrounging around to find replacements.

Such as....this:

** http://www.marcuse.org/herbert/pubs/60spubs/65repressivetolerance.htm

It's sad to see the vultures circling a situation as horrible as this, hoping, of all things, to take advantage of the victims to advertise their religion.

Political correctness and the absence of the practical, male teachers who can bridge, are missing in action as those who know better under government dictate, contraire.

First of all, I'd like to applaud the author for recognising a problem and taking some action to draw attention to it and, hopefully, to fix it. While I don't entirely agree with his proposals, at least he's putting something out there for discussion. That's more than I've done.

I think the teenagers of today face some interesting issues that are unprecedented, at least in recent history. For all the easy means of communication available to them - SMS, MSN, Facebook, MySpace, Bebo, etc. - there seems to be a great shortage of meaningful communication going on. Friends fight over the internet rather than face-to-face. They flirt over the internet. They gossip over the internet. They do so much from a distance that, in many cases, they seem unable to do much face-to-face at all. Despite all the avenues of communication available to them, the kids I see every day seem more isolated than any I knew when I was at school.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming social networking for youth suicide - far from it. I'm a big fan of the opportunities afforded by these online networks. The difference, though, is that I had a childhood before the world went online. When I had a problem with someone, I had to face up to him or simply avoid him. False bravado would be punished with a bop in the nose - put simply, I didn't have an elaborate online world in which to compensate for my own shortcomings.

I learnt to accept myself for who I am, and I learnt to understand others for the people they were. Kids these days (hmm, saying that makes me feel rather old) are able to avoid such realities. They are able to create new selves, all the while comparing the real thing with the false creations of their friends and rivals. The result, as with electronic communication, is an enhanced sense of isolation. Teenagers are often the only people who know who they really are. How depressing that must be!

Dear runner,

Homophobic bullying is a real problem in the schools, and Scripture Union chaplains can only make the problem worse because their type of religion is homophobic. However, all Christians are not blind to the problem. The following is from a Christian source:

http://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=23926

…The reality is that education against homophobic bullying cannot be isolated from prevailing attitudes in the wider community. As with any social value that we hope to instil, children take their cues from adults, of whom their teachers are merely a subset.

The idea of an education-oriented advocacy to support gay young people is not new. The Washington-based Safe Schools Coalition has existedfor 20 years, and is part of a national network in the United States. Around 120 organisations are also dedicated there to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual rights. Yet, in the past few months there have been disturbing reports of a rise in violence against gays, even in liberal New York. In separate incidents, two young men committed suicide due to the pressures of being gay in their communities. Commentators draw links between these and recent developments such as the gay marriage debate, the right-wing politics of the Tea Party movement, and homophobic language used by high-profile Republican politicians.

Principals and teachers can keep gay young people safe at school only to the extent that they are also safe in the wider community. The discussion around bullying often overlooks the ways in which perceptions of power are being fed. Bullies like power, and their sense of power is fuelled by the notion that others are inferior. As long as specific groups of people at school or elsewhere are regarded as inferior simply because they are different, bullies will find targets...

david f,

you write
'Homophobic bullying is a real problem in the schools, and Scripture Union chaplains can only make the problem worse because their type of religion is homophobic.'

Yes homophobic like every other form of bullying is a problem in schools. Fat kids in particular cop it. It should not stop educators from encouraging kids to eat healthily. Some fat kids commit suicide due to constant tormenting. It is much better that homosexuality not be promoted in schools along with all other forms of immorality. Your labeling of anyone disagreeing with you as homophobic shows how bigoted your views are. Homosexuality is bad for a person;s health and for society.

Dear runner,

There is such a thing as homophobia whether you care to recogise it or not. Recognising that homsexuality exists and that homosexuals are humans who should be treated with the same consideration that we treat all other humans is not promoting homosexuality.

You wrote: "Your labeling of anyone disagreeing with you as homophobic shows how bigoted your views are. Homosexuality is bad for a person;s health and for society."

I have not lablled all who disagree with me as homophobic, and I would appreciate it if you would stop lying about it.

Homosexuality is not a disease and is part of society.

I am rather skeptical about these proposed “social and emotional learning” classes. In a feminist education system, would this become something similar to “males are evil and can’t express their feelings, and need to be taught how”.

We already have an education system focused on talking about something rather than doing something, and these proposed “social and emotional learning” classes would appear to be more of the same.

In a feminist education system, I haven’t actually heard a teacher say anything positive about boys, but I have heard quite a few say that “boys do all right later on”.

This allows the teacher to have a dismissive attitude to boys, and I am therefore wondering how much the education system is now actually part of the problem?

Well I did ask to at least start talking about it... so thanks :)

The feedback I've received suggests (as I know) there is no single answer. Yes for some it is religion, for others it is something else entirely.

Also homophobia is, in my opinion, a big issue, and one I will address in a coming article.

@Arthur N - Its the feedback from people who have suffered and/or parents/relatives of those who have who have been most supportive of my article, and I thank you sincerely.

@Vanna - I can assure you your views are not yours alone. I am absolutely resolute in my approach to the welfare and health of ALL my students. I'd invite you to look at my website for a little more of an insight... although it is still in it's infancy, I hope it gives more of an idea of my education philosophy than one 750 word article. Thanks :)

When I was at school, I never saw ONE instance of homophobic bullying, but I sure as heck saw a lot of bullying and experienced it.

You are a target if you:

a) Act weak
b) look different

I think the issue is blown out of proportion by people who just want to use the 'sympathy' card to further a decadent social agenda.

Yep..you heard right.. 'decadent'.

If people wish to characterize such thoughts as anything but legitimate, I challenge them to provide philosophical grounds to do so.

Unless we can all refer to a higher power.. bigger than all of us, then we are left with as many opinions about right and wrong as there are people..all equally valid.
It so happens that the Higher Power who has revealed His will to mankind has included very apt descriptions of certain behavior which He considers an abomination.

We can leave people to their own behavior to a certain extent. We cannot however allow them to teach/educate our children that behavior's which are decadent are in fact 'ok/normal'.

The latest study in the U.S. concluded in August of this year Yabby.

It was found that many young people, who as children, had been diagnosed with anxiety and depression, later on continued to develop full scale depression as a result of either having a genetic tendency to have lower seratonin levels affecting the neurotransmitters or Seratonin levels inadequate for a variety of reasons, affecting the neurotransmitters.

In some people who exhibit symptoms of a range of eating disorders, Seratonin levels have been identified as the cause, after a full case study has been undertaken on individuals ie zooming back to childhood.

It is common knowledge that some people with anxiety and/or depression do not attempt to commit suicide. On the other hand, of course, there is always someone we know through family or as a close friend or work colleague who has [taken their life] as a result of depression triggered by a range of factors.

Getting to the root of the trigger[s] and cause is urgent and critical, therefore caring and encouraging anyone with depression and or anxiety to see a professional immediately saves lives along with assisting their childrens lives and spouses from later dealing with the shocking bereavements.

Dan Heasler,
I have had a look at your blog site. Very impressive, but I still remain skeptical about schools carrying out social science courses or even life skills courses.

Good in theory, but such systems can easily become corrupted or distorted by teachers who have a private agenda to push.

As an example, I took one of my children out of grade 11 SOS course after 1st semester and enrolled her in a chemistry course instead.

Why? Because the SOS teacher had failed about 75% of the students in 1st semester exams. One of the students the SOS teacher had failed was the top grade 10 student in English, and latter became dux of the school in grade 12 with an OP score of 1. She is currently studying medicine, but the SOS teacher had failed her.

It was later found that the students were not allowed any opinion other than what the SOS teacher told them to believe, and that SOS teacher was also highly feminist with no regard for boy students.

Who knows where that SOS teacher is now, but hopefully not in front of a class.

Also it is interesting that some of the poorest nations in the world have the lowest suicide rates, and also countries that are highly anti-homosexual have virtually no suicides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

I don’t believe there is any great connection between homosexuality and suicide.

Dear Vanna,

http://gaylife.about.com/od/gayteens/a/gaysuicide.htm is a link which tells about homosexual teenagers and suicide.

From the link:

Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Questioning Youth

Suicide Statistics

By Ramon Johnson, About.com Guide

Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth are up to four times more likely to attempt suicide than their heterosexual peers, according to the Massachusetts 2006 Youth Risk Survey. A 2009 study, "Family Rejection as a Predictor of Negative Health Outcomes" led by Dr. Caitlin Ryan and conducted as part of the Family Acceptance Project at San Francisco State University, shows that adolescence who were rejected by their families for being LGBT were 8.4 times more likely to report having attempted suicide. And for every completed suicide by a young person, it is estimated that 100 to 200 attempts are made (2003 Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey)

David f,
Well that report is also interesting, when countries such as Iran, which is a highly anti-homosexual country, have virtually no suicide.

Peer group acceptance or rejection is very important for both boys and girls, but I think that homophobia is over-emphasised in our society, or over exaggerated by those wishing to pursue their own agendas.

I have yet to find a teacher who has anything positive to say about boys as a group (or men for that matter), while I have heard many negatives said.

I would think many teachers would have to attend life skill classes and undergo a complete change in attitude before they could teach life skills to others.

I have been a sufferer of depression since the age of 15.

Thanks - NOT - to Jayb who says "let nature take its course".

I may have seriously contemplated suicide in the past, but this does not mean I am not a valuable person to society.

I can never pin point any particular incident or events that preceed a bout of "the little devils" in my head. They start to party and even with medication I just have to let them party on until they are exhausted - and only then can I continue life as normal.

Suicide has been occuring since time began. It is more to do with what is going on in our head than any particular outside influence.

I watched with great sadness the story of the young newsreader who could not fight the thoughts in her head any longer and jumped off the cliff.

With age, I have learnt to cope with these "grey days".

Depression is an issue that absolutely needs addressing in schools.

More emphasis should be on "learning to live" rather than "living to learn"

Vanna said, "I would think teachers would have to attend life skill classes and undergo a complete change in attitude before they could teach life skills to others."

I think we have to ask ourselves as a society if life skills are something that can be packaged up and taught in a classroom?
We have been educating our children this way for around 200 years as part of the continuum of modern existence. Prior to this, "life skills" were learned as part of "life" - by learning within the community. children spent their formative years in the company of all ages instead of being segregated with age peers away from the world going on around them.
Yes, this is the way we do it now, but we shouldn't feign amazement when our deliberate warping of life delivers us a society where the disconnection and bewilderment of our youth turns rapidly to depression.

An earlier thread on this subject was raised on OLO either this year or last year Dan.

I recall mentioning the use of dumbells used daily, gym muscle strengthening exercises, swimming, riding a bike, gardening, all of these activities in individuals suffering from depression have turned their illness around to the point whereby many people have come off their medication and not needed it in their future lives.

Dr Nalin Singh [one example] among other specialists have treated patients for years using the muscle toning exercise programs successfully.

Unfortunately when the 'black dog' hits people with depression, it is difficult for people to get out of bed, [one of my friends suffers this on a regular basis] during these episodes.

She has suffered depression for well over 15 years and treated regularly. When I raise the muscle exercises, swimming or bike riding to her in between the episodes, she disregards the suggestions. One day.....hopefully!

searching,

Unfortunately it is not as though few people have had experience with people suffering from depression and do not understand. The sad truth is that a little while ago our culture took a turn somehow towards a very nasty greedy and egocentric individualism and the social contract we always had as a society to take care of the vulnerable was broken. Where leaders consistently exhibit 'me, me, me' behaviour themselves there is no surprise that the easily led also follow. There is also the cumulative effect of victim politics, where large groups of people claiming discrimination, advocates included, have managed to hijack the social debate and the welfare funding. Truly the various discrimination commissions and other government sponsored advocacy groups such as for multiculturalism need to be reviewed and a sunset declared.

There are far too many physically and mentally capable people hanging from the government teats for reasons of 'discrimination' and 'equity', which translated means they claim hand-outs and dependency for life. No wonder there is such growth in indigenous numbers, it is a free pass for everything from free trout (no licence needed) through to an easy, funded passage through university and despite the over-supply of soft degrees such as in indigenous studies and indigenous law.

Frankly I don't know how the real vulnerable people such as the aged, the disabled and the mentally ill can manage to be heard through the clamour of the faux disadvantaged. Even where some priority is apparently given to mental health issues via a ministry, the victim industries that have proved to be so profitable for professionals and other hangers-on, seem to take over the agenda.

There remains a large section of the electorate that understands and empathises with the vulnerable mentally ill. Many voters are exasperated with the cynicism of the established political parties, including the time-wasting, grandstanding Greens and there will be far more volatility in the electorate with frequent turnover of members. One day, soon we hope, some statesmen will be found to lead in the community's interest rather than take advantage for themselves.

I think the main problem with most lives today is that they are too simple, safe, & plain boring. A few dozen hairy mammoths, running around our city streets would probably cure most, if not all these problems with suicide.

Our bodies are crying out for some adrenalin, & all the other chemicals we generate in times of physical, & mental stress/danger. If we can’t find it at work, home, or food gathering, we will generate it some how, & fear of death, even at our own hands would have a soup of these things swishing around our heads.

Worry is probably a life saver, rather than a damaging problem.

Look at the rise of dangerous “games” like street racing & hooning in cars to see the result. It is also probably why some people like horror movies.

You only have to look at the extremely rapid growth of motor racing, off shore yacht racing & sky diving in sporting activities, & white water rafting & other “adventure” tourism activities to realise we humans reed some excitement in our lives.

The excitement probably needs to be accompanied by some physical exertion which may be why those who have to work in a garden, hoeing weeds for 10 weeks to get a meal are less likely to suicide, than those who pop into the supermarket for 5 minutes, on the way home from work

So if you have a friend with emotional problems, try throwing them out of an airplane, it should cure something

The power of ideology never ceases to amaze me. It is a pervasive syndrome that knows no class barriers.
Why do we continue to treat so-called mental illness as a pathology manifested in an "individual" subject? Well the answer of course is that it is a lucrative business. Has anyone crunched the numbers on the money involved in the anti-depressant market?
<Some stress is brought on because of trends in society: the rise of individualism and consumerism; a decline in a sense of community and of the importance of the family unit.>

He's onto something here! But the diagnosis is still too localised. So-called individualism is the goose that laid the golden egg. Any thinking person will soon conclude that there ain't no such animal as a self-sufficient individual. Yet individualism is the raison d'etra of consumerism..?
Mental illness, hyperbolically inflated (like the article), is running at about twenty percent in any one year. That's a lot!
But of course it's not mental illness manifested randomly in one in five of the population like some kind of psychic tumour. Most mental illness is not organic at all; it's a social disease. So why are we treating it monadologically? Wouldn't it be better to fix the society? Well the author suggests that, but he doesn't go the whole mile; no point trying to make a family happy when they live under some form of tyranny. Society and culture are manifestations of the economic base--blasphemy! We don't have sick individuals, we have a sick society and culture and the rash we call mental illness is the symptom. Modern humans are hot-house plants (the botanical name is Valetudinarian), cultured in utterly artificial conditions and, like any exotic alien, are prone to illness..
Of course that's all thet've ever known and they put it down to sheer complexity.

None are so blind as those who cannot see.

While I agree that society conditions us to ideas and beliefs, it is always up to the individual how they choose.

I absolutely agree there is big business in "health".

It is easier to prescribe a "pill" than actually help the sufferer holistically.

A young man my daughter worked with hung himself on his verandah - his father found him. For all intents and purposes, this young man "appeared" normal. Another young man from my daughters school hung himself in the backyard - he too "appeared" normal.

Yes society does have a lot to answer for, but please, please, do not discount the "depressed" person as feining mental illness.

I also agree that exercise is of great benefit for sufferers of depression - it acts on the seritonin in the brain.

At some levels, I think it is wonderful that some do not comprehend what it is like live with devils in your head - I wish upon a star that I could be like this - because it would mean I was "normal".

Depression is so insidious. Because people cant see an outward sign in the sufferer they assume it does not exist. If we could show you a bruise, or sores, or xrays of something broken, you would believe us.

Be thankful you do not understand, but do not be so arrogant as to presume you know the cause and the answer.

Hi Searching, I have experienced both short term post natal depression, depression commencement during the first year of my daughter's [now 20 yrs] life, felt it trying to re-commence after crises events over the years. I have been fortunate that on each occasion I refused to allow it to take hold, getting myself out of a forthcoming bog by exercising, starting a business from home, and organising a support group for parents [Dads and Mums] that year for two years.

On both sides of the family, depression and bi-polar present in two relatives, supporting these two relatives periodically over 20 years, in addition to raising my children and work. Given individuals suffer from varying degrees of depression, deal with it [or do not]differently, of course no-one is able to generalise and know all causes and/or come up with all of the solutions.

Discussions and threads will always give people the opportunity to offer some suggestions and advice from their own experiences, or a loved one[s].

We are Unique.

I was not intending to belittle anyone for their opinions. As you stated, people handle this condition differently - some people are "glass half full people" and some "glass half empty".

My family and friends know I am much saner on medication. My doctor doesnt know why the "tap" in my head seems to turn on and off at will.

Over the years I have learnt different coping strategies too - one is writing.

I fear for the young with all the pressures of society these days. They dont have the wisdom that comes with experience and age to help them cope.

The young news reader had a "good life" from all outside appearances - a career, a supportive family, a future life with a partner, yet she could not go on.... so, so sad.

And life goes on.....

*Most mental illness is not organic at all; it's a social disease*

Squeers, I would say that you are purely guessing on that one.
Throughout history, humans have learned to cope with stress and
trauma, far worse then they deal with today. In fact in relative
terms, our society is quite mollycoddled.

I'm certainly no expert in the field, but in the cases that I
know of, some of them close friends, a family history of suffering
from depression, was extremely common.

It makes evolutionary sense too. Our neural chemistry is massively
affected by our genes and to try and fob most of it off on
society, (perhaps because it might also suit your ideological
claims) is highly flawed, IMHO.

While we have people, we will have people who glorify death and the dark side. A change of heart is the beginning to an abundant life. The battle for the heart and mind of men and women has been from the beginning. The positive and negitave sides are very real and only a fool chooses to ignore this. A fool is one who has said in his heart "There is no God", then trys to explain everything in the light of that opinion. Jesus came to save bringing grace and truth. When he returns the season of grace is over and judgment comes. Seek the truth boldly while grace is available for no one knows the Hour or the day when the door closes. Look to posipilities and do not gamble with the future for the cards are always stacked against. Pilots who chose to ignore instruction are usually unsuccessful so why ignore such a great help, "the instruction manual" in favor of pride. People perish from lack of knowledge. It is a personal choice. For all who blame God for all the bad please remember it is a personal choice whether we serve the God of possible, or the god of impossible.
lets

Searching:
<please, do not discount the "depressed" person as feining mental illness>
Dear Searching, did I say that? No. And I am sympathetic.
According to Robert Burton's "The Anatomy of Melancholy", activity is the best cure (the Devil makes work for idle hands), but these days it perhaps only defers the malady since there is no "genuine" activity.

Dear Yabby,
I'm not guessing, it's a (not unprecedented) hypothesis I'm interested in, associated with cultural alienation and the notion of "morbid rationalism"; an existential "disease" or rationality sui generis, vested in a culture without cogent values. Thus I'm not talking mass psychosis or "crowd psychology", but the loss of self implied by the ersatz, fetishising-self constructed within consumer culture. The idea rests on the notion of not merely thwarted, but egocentric reification and concomitant exploitation of the essential, or potential, self.
In our culture of reified abstractions--wherein abides the garish self amid its material props--a sense of disequilibrium, or unreality, naturally entails. People often perceive the fraudulence of their glitzy culture and shallow lives, but see no alternative so try to take it seriously. Some succeed, most don't, at least not all the time (remember, 20% suffer a mental "illness" IN ANY ONE YEAR). Some people use religion to compensate (a fantastic alternative reality that, if you can swallow it, compensates and maintains a semblance of mental health), some use drugs, some fall by the wayside, and some rebel (yep, that's me).
It is the context within which mental illness is treated that should be studied. A healthy culture develops naturally and institutionally reflects the psychological needs of its denizens. Ours is a patronising and exploitative culture at once.

Yabby:
<a family history of suffering
from depression, [is] extremely common>
Family histories of religious devotion are also extremely common, but that doesn't mean it's genetic.

OMG squeers, you have just sent me into a depressive state trying to understand what you have written. As I am not an academic or a prolific reader, it took me a while (along with a dictionary[my constant companion]) to understand what you wrote. Or at least I think I understand.

I could not find "sui genuris" only sui juris - I am assuming this is the same thing?

Living is so complicated at times.

Richie 10 - I was once "born again" and perhaps this saw me thru the teenage years, but as I aged it also became a burdon - I found that a belief that God would sustain me became a burdon in itself. Actually, now that I have dispensed with that side of life, I am seeing life in a different "light".

Even tho society has changed, perhaps relatively speaking it is no different to when I was a teenager. I think each generation finds its own level.

It is up to the "elders" to be the guides - to listen to them, not condemn them - to be there when they falter or fall - to accept them for who they are.

Quote: Montaigne " I gladly come back to the absurdity of our education; its end has not been to make us good and wise, but learned. And it has succeeded. It has not taught us to seek virtue and to embrace wisdom; it has impressed upon us their derivation and their etymology...
We readily inquire, 'Does he know Greek or Latin?' 'Can he write poetry and prose:' But what matters most is what we put last; 'Has he become better and wiser?' We ought to find out not who understands most but who understands best. We work merely to fill the memory, leaving the understanding and the sense of right and wrong empty."

Dear Squeers,

Fair enough, as I thought, you are simply guessing.

I think you will find that if you do a google search on
the genetic depression link, there is a bit of evidence
around.

*Family histories of religious devotion are also extremely common, but that doesn't mean it's genetic.*

No it doesen't, but personally I think that in time it will be
shown that certain people are more inclined to religious
indoctrination, based on their neural wiring. Religion does
help people quell anxiety, homeostasis is part of it.
People seek perceived certainty, fair enough

But you are comparing apples and oranges here. Neural function is
organic, based on genetic input. Flawed neural function is common
in nature.

Not so with religion. The brain can function quite well without
it. Its based on learned behaviour.

I feel quite strongly about this, and it is why I home educate my son.
Although he is mildly autistic, he is also extremely capable. He is prone to be more anxious because of his perceptions and sensory issues. There are many children like him in the school system - some diagnosed, many not. These children are the ones that are a "little" different, the one's that struggle and the ones that are targeted by other children.
My son knows very little of the pressure to conform within a faceless institution. He is allowed the luxury of taking his mornings slowly, of wearing the clothes of his choice, of developing his academic skills through the things that interest him, and of socialising within groups that share some commonality with him.
He interacts on a daily basis with all age groups - from the pensioner on the bus to the lady in the post office to the toddler at the park. In short, his day unfolds in a generally relaxed and natural manner.

We seem in our society to want to pressure our children to extremes - to whip them into shape to take their place amongst the hordes of consumers. Somewhere along this road we have forgotten to allow them to seek their skills through their own foresight and interest - to guide them, but not to dictate the "absolute" content of their learning.They are like a bonsai plant - nipped and budded at every turn. In our society we provide a very shallow and restricted base from which to flourish.

Searching - I liked the Montaigne quote

It is clear among the layman (including me) there is a lot of misinformation and mythology surrounding suicide. I am sure there is also much we know now that we did not in the past. In particular in relation to the effects of mental illness, drug abuse and specific events that instigate these depressive states. I am not expert but have liaised with social workers for intervention when there was a perceived risk of suicide. There seems to be no one common thread but varied causes, including an increase in suicide risk from farmers during the drought, homeless people/those at risk, mental illness and poverty/disadvantage.

Apart from the genetic/chemical causes where there is the inexplicable 'brain switch' for depressive episodes and risk of suicide, there are some situational crisis that also lead to suicide.

Youth are probably more at risk due to the pressures of growing up while trying to find out who you are and what you stand for - separate and in addition to the medical complications.

I do think there is some increase in youth depression for social reasons as well as medical; or at least it exacerbates the medical, similar to what Cornflower suggests above.

Poirot, I am sure your son will thrive under your tutlelage and care. There is too much of assembly line nature of education and narrow academic results-oriented mentality particularly for kids who don't fit the standard mould.

One article I read suggested that suicide rates have actually fallen somewhat, the highest period being during the Depression era and that was when formal statistics were less rigorous. It is difficult to know the real figures when suspected suicides are put down to vehicle accidents in some cases.

I am not sure how emotional wellbeing classes can help - too much depends on the calibre of the presenter/counsellor. But in some cases it may be just what the doctor ordered. We need to ask young people what concerns them and what they need to help them when the black dog hits.

Dear Pelican,

I watched an interesting program recently on the ABC. Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs) visited and stayed in the huge Mumbai slum, Dharavi.
There are one million people living there in one square mile. They basically live on a tip - and mostly support themselves by recycling waste from the rest of Mumbai - particularly by the retrieval of plastic (there are 400 plastic recycling plants in the slum).
This sort of urban poverty was breathtaking, yet Kevin stressed that the community which had sprang up was well-balanced, had almost no crime - the people kept their immediate surrounds in good order...and to him they seemed relatively "happy".
It is difficult to perceive that people living in what seems to be such a desperate and appalling situation could be happy, however, it seems that the organic nature of their community and cooperative structures give them the sense of human connection that they need...food for thought.

The way I see it, there are two types of mental illness. Natural mental illness caused by a breakdown of the brains neural network. These people have no control over what's happening to them. No different to having the flu. Go to the doctor.

The other type I perceive as self inflicted. The cause is pure selfishness. They want their own way & when they can't get it, get depressed. They go looking for sympathy & get it. They get what they want. They only want to "talk" about their problems not "fix" them. They learn that if they, "bung on a turn," it gains a reward. Usually in the form of the sympathy of their peers. This then becomes self emolating. It becomes a rewarding habit. Like a drug it has a short period of reward then the "down" sets in. For this type, either "fix" the problem or remove your self from the Gene Pool.

Here is an interesting talk. It's a comedian but what he has to say is so true. Even my wife agrees. http://www.wimp.com/thebrain/

Searching: I may have seriously contemplated suicide in the past, but this does not mean I am not a valuable person to society.

? Does it. What have you personally achieved for the good of society?

The key to beating Mental illness is "ATTITUDE" Yours! You can "talk" about it or you can "fix" it. The ball is in your court, it's up to you & you alone.

All these Social Workers are just keeping themselves in a job. they are not interested in YOU. They are there for you for a shoulder to cry on & express sympathy, not "fix" the problem.

By the way I have been diagnosed with PTSD & I know what it is & I recognise that what I "feel" is just "crap." I don't go looking for a sympathy fix. I don't abuse people. I don't go looking to take advantage of the problem. I "fix" the problem whenever it arises.

ATTITUDE & a willingness to FIX the problem. That IS the key.

Dear Searching,
sorry if my post was a bit of a dog's breakfast, but I think you got the gist.

Dear Yabby,
no I am not "guessing"; in fact I'm going to elaborate the thesis for a journal article. As I said above, it is "not unprecedented"; I already have texts to back me up and believe I can make a very strong case that the conventional scientific community is doing what it typically does; delimits research to within "normal" parameters, that is the "existing" political/social paradigm.
In a similar vein, you are in the habit of dismissing everything I say as driven by political doctrine, when in fact I'm a sceptic through and through. Yet, on the other hand, you never question the orientation from which you derive your own "common sense", but defend it to the hilt.
Of course if we are to credit the scientific community, we must accept that humanity, per se, is afflicted with a nearly universal psychic pathology. 20% in any one year translates to a likely large majority in the course of say a generation.
Buy shares in pharmaceuticals!

Dear Poirot,
with four kids currently in school I'm appalled at the miserable education they get, but even more horrified at the automated propagation of a bankrupt morality adults barely even pay lip service too. I'm certain you're doing your son a great service in shielding him from it.

Dear Squeers,

We simply look at things from totally different perspectives.
You focus on the philosophical, I focus on how the mind works.
For the mind is, what the brain does and that is organic,
there are no ghosts in the machine.

But in the end, neuroscience will trump philosophy.
For philosophy is mostly guessing.

ATTITUDE & a willingness to FIX the problem. That IS the key.

JayB, I agree with the above statement. But there are times when the blackdog takes you unawares.

How have I contributed to society JayB?

I have raised 3 healthy children to adulthood.

I work in aged care, caring for some of the most vulnerable people in society.

I participate in my workplace agreement and assist staff with work related problems.

I am on an industry committee which will formulate policies for the aged care industry.

I work and pay my way.

But best of all, I participate in the life of my dear grandson.

Is that enough participation JayB.

I have met those people who wear you out with their never ending problems. For whatever reason they dont appear to be able to get beyond the problem to the solution. Their perception may be different to mine, but it is no less real for them.

Dear Poirot
That program raises some interesting observations (I did not see it unfortunately).

As other posters have alluded I am sure that a sense of community connectedness and support makes a huge difference to community wellbeing even when there is little wealth. Most things are relative. I noticed during travels in Asia in countries where people were begging the concerns were mainly ones of survival and where the next meal was coming. This is difficult enough and I suspect in the developed world, with our essential needs, relatively well catered for, we have more time to ponder the higher order needs in respect to love, intellectual pursuits, emotional security etc and are perhaps sometimes found wanting.

I don't know the answers or even the deeper causes - there are so many variables and individual responses. Certainly if one feels loved and secure, even those medical conditions can be better supported than without.

Happiness is never about wealth but something much more intangible.

Well done Searching, that's good to hear. See these are your positives & you should be proud of them. When the Black Dog barks piss it off with just how good you are, then kick it in the butt.

Searching: I have met those people who wear you out with their never ending problems. For whatever reason they dont appear to be able to get beyond the problem to the solution.

Haven't we all. I turn it into a game. Ask them if they just want to talk about their problem or fix the problem. If they only want to talk then tell them you have enough on your own plate to be worried about them. Listening to them will only make you depressed. That's what you want to avoid.

According to all the good books I have read; 'Declare Yourself - Narciso & Burket,' How to Stop Worrying etc - Carnegie, How to be an Assertive Woman - Bear, Psycho-Cybernetics etc - Maltz, Putting it all Together - Kassorla, Born to Win - James & Jongeward, etc.' All these people basicly have the same advise. "You are resopnsible for your own feelings. No one can make you feel bad about yourself." Therefore, it is your ATTITUDE towards yourself that matters. If someone is bullying you, then it's a reflection on how they feel about themselves, not how they feel about you.

Good Luck

I deeply admire you Searching and respect all you have and are doing in your life. The fact that you chose a long time ago to raise children and fully support the aged, is magnificent and has required motivation and determination plus. How selfless and giving. If it were not for you opening up and sharing your experiences I would not have shared my experience of post natal dep 20 years ago and the odd couple of occasions when I felt that dark empty pit in my heart and tummy trying to gain a foothold after a couple of crises events.

Squeers I understand where you are coming from with your viewpoints and agree that there are some Australians attitudes for many and varied reasons, living in those respects.

Yabby Neuroscience should be given a great deal more funding, as I have always firmly believed that neurology, genetics and experiences, hold the keys to many of our bodies ailments. Both my children suffered for the first few years of their lives with the same symptoms. I tried to raise funds for a study into chromosomes identifying a genetic component regarding the medical condition [that had been commenced by Specialists] in South Australia 15 years ago. No funding available, other obstacles presented and out the window went the fundraising exercises.

My childrens conditions were not depression related as they were babies and toddlers, yet their symptoms appeared genetic via Specialist opinions at the time.

All enjoy your week.

Dear Searching,
I have fought many battles with the black dog over the last few years and it is not my belief that has got me through, for even the devil believes in God, It is my relationship with him. Christianity is not religious beliefs and traditions but a living relationship as real to me as I had with my earthly father and have with my wife and children. To get the best out of My relationships I have to work at it (quality time & effort). Neglect tends to kill relationship.

Yabby – for the materialist, ultimately it is all to do with the neural wiring and physical interactions with the wider universe.

Philosophy and religious ideas play no functional role whatsoever.

If there is no “ghost in the machine”, as you put it, then everything is just automatically unfolding according to the laws of physics and nothing can be different to how it is.

JP, you are free to believe in ghosts if you wish. That is your
choice.

Given that you are the questioning type, I'd suggest a great
book written by neuroscientist VS Ramachandran, called
"Phantons in the brain". It deals with various neurological
disorders.

Explain to me this too, as you might even know about it. Patients
who have had limbs removed, commonly feel intense pain in their
phantom limbs, after they are removed. They can feel that pain in
that limb, even though the limb is gone. No matter what their
so called free will tells them.

I don’t understand you Yabby. You say that I am “free to believe”, “if I wish”, and “that is my choice”: yet you deny that we have free will.

If we have no free will then I am not free to believe whatever I want and I cannot act according to my choices. Whatever I happen to do is purely a consequence of the physical state of the universe (which includes my brain) at any particular time.

Beliefs, wishes, and choices have no affect whatever on what happens.

Pain from phantom limbs is one of those things that happens just like everything else that simply happens to occur.

If materialism is correct we are essentially puppets of a mindless universe.

There is nothing mystical about Phantom Limbs. Being a vetran I have a few mates with limbs missing. They tell me that if they have an ichie little finger they can scratch it on their stump & they can move their thumb & forearm sometimes. Another mate tells me that if he bumps his leg stump in a particular spot it the same as if he has kicked his little toe. Apparently all the nerve endings are still there in the stump & the brain, for some time afterhaving the leg/arm removed, still thinks the limb is still there. The neural pathways are still there. Some remain forever, some fade away in time. A purely natural physiological situation. No great mystery un less you want to make it so. I am missing the top half of my thumb & I sometimes get sensual pleasure from rubbing it unknowingly because the nerve ending in my thumb give a nice sensation when rubbed. Other hobbiests who have the fingers missing tell me they experience the same sensation.

What's this got to do with people committing sucide? Unless they are frightened by evil spirits etc,in which case they're DH's & can "go jump."

Jayb – this has everything to do with people committing suicide. If people are incapable of making genuine free choices, as Yabby seems to believe, then there is nothing that can be done to help them or to influence what happens.

Of course, if there is no free will then none of our apparent choices are real and nothing else can make any sense either.

*yet you deny that we have free will.*

JP, the evidence suggests that your will is not as free as you think.
Just how free, remains to be seen, as the evidence comes forward.

At the end of the day, you are a product of your genes and your
environment. Yes, a certain part of the brain has the ability to
weigh things up and react accordingly. My dog can do that too.
How much happens at the subconcious level, is the question.

We know that hormones affect behaviour. We know that neurotransmitters
affect behaviour. We know that if people have sections of their
brains damaged and live to tell the tale, it can change their
personality in quite dramatic ways. Clearly they are not so free to
do much about it.

So is it possible that some people evolved to be more anxious,
religious etc, as a result of brain function? Sure its possible,
there has already been plenty of speculation about which spot,
just not yet enough concrete evidence. It will happen eventually.

*There is nothing mystical about Phantom Limbs*

Well that was my point Jayb. The mind is what the brain does.

If there is a feedback loop malfunctioning, which lowers serotonin
levels, people are going to suffer from depression, purely due
to brain chemistry, which has a genetic input.

The debate over free will will probably never be decided, no matter how ambitious the scientific community's quest for a theory of everything.
Everything does indeed link to something else, but there's more to cause and effect than that. Indeed it could be argued that at a certain level of complexity a phenomenon ceases being derivitive, in fact 'transcends' its formative development.

I'm bound to say, Jayb, I find your reasoning rather crude, and I'd suggest a ritual book-burning of the texts you mention above. Indeed the whole positive thinking industry is reprehensible.

I think people have good reason to be depressed and your kind of bracing logic, however 'ostensibly' useful in some circumstances (like in the army), implicity backs the sick culture that is for my money to blame.
Whether you like or acknowledge it or not, there is great mystery at the centre of life that can't and shouldn't be blown off with bravado.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of people committing suicide have mental health issues. I know Davidf often quotes figures as to how many were bullied for their homosexuality. Most that have killed themselves that I have known has been as a result of relationship breakdown. Sometimes it has been pure jealousy. While I am sure there are a percentage that are deranged through smoking to much dope or popping to many pills their are many middle aged men who can't cope with aging or the fact that their missus has done the dirty on them.

Michell: I'm bound to say, Jayb, I find your reasoning rather crude,

Well as Keating once said; "Life wasn't meant to be easy, but with a little hard work & perseverance it can be made tolerable." Life is what it is. It is a hard fact not a mystery. There is no PC in the reality of Life.

Michell: and I'd suggest a ritual book-burning of the texts you mention above. Indeed the whole positive thinking industry is reprehensible.

Why? Are you in favour of negativity? Isn't that one of the causes of suicide? Admittedly The books are some what ancient, <70's & are now considered quaint. It was a pick of about 3000 technical books in my libary. Only 3 novels though. I like to concentrate on facts not fiction. Mind you I do like to read some of the "strange mags" like, Insite Nexus & new dawn, just to see what the fruities are up to. ;-)

Jayb: The other type I perceive as self inflicted. The cause is pure selfishness. They want their own way & when they can't get it, get depressed. They go looking for sympathy & get it. They get what they want.

Do you deny this?

The key to beating Mental illness is "ATTITUDE" Yours! You can "talk" about it or you can "fix" it.

Do you deny this?

All these Social Workers are just keeping themselves in a job. they are not interested in YOU.

Do you deny this?

If someone is bullying you, then it's a reflection on how they feel about themselves, not how they feel about you.

Do you deny this?

Unless they are frightened by evil spirits, etc,in which case they're DH's & can "go jump."

I stand by my statement. Why does the society have to pander to these misfits. It cost valuable resources that could be uses for the betterment of people who are not driven by superstition & self-indulgentness.

If people want to commit suicide it should be a crime to stop them completing the task.

The reality is that it is only if we have genuine free will that we can actually know anything at all.

If everything is entirely determined by the nature of physical matter – because physical matter is all that there is – then we can’t and don’t really know anything. Things simply happen, not because of any good reasons but just because of the laws of physics.

We don’t need to do any scientific tests to establish if free will is actual or not.

If determinism is true everything is the product of a totally rigid, couldn’t-be-otherwise, mindless machine and all talk is nothing but noise. None of us in this discussion, nor anybody anywhere else, really believes that is the case, so effectively we all believe free will is true and we are almost certainly right.

*The reality is that it is only if we have genuine free will that we can actually know anything at all.*

JP, in that case my dog has genuine free will, because clearly
my dog knows things.

*Things simply happen, not because of any good reasons but just because of the laws of physics.*

The universe might well be mindless, we don't really know, there
is no evidence. But we do know that evolution theory is based on
dna replicating itself to its best advantage. Could mammals brains
be a result of billions of years of this? Sure.

*so effectively we all believe free will is true and we are almost certainly right*

Some of us can show that perhaps limited will is true, but not
effective free will. If JP had been raised in the bin Laden family,
or a family of Jehovas witnesses, JP might have landed up quite
different in his thinking then he does today. So clearly JP is
not as free as JP seems to think. Both genetics and environment,
have clouded JP's claimed free will.

That is the reality of it.

If people want to commit suicide it should be a crime to stop them completing the task. JayB.

Have you lost a 'young' close relative or friend to suicide JayB? Do you have children who may one day be at real risk?

When you have suffered a loss, that hits you hard or impacts upon your heart, JayB, your hardness and lack of compassion for other people at risk, whatever the causes, may disappear and your views will hopefully change.

Obviously no-one has loved and cared for you during your life and/or you have not allowed yourself to be loved, in order for you to love or care about other people who are suffering.

runner
People suicide for different reasons. I am always fascinated that you continually paint women as the evil doers in relationship breakdowns. Do you really believe that it is only women who "do the dirty" on their partners? That there have never been men who leave their wives and children for another, or because family life might limit their options. That is a dishonest representation.

pelican you ask

Do you really believe that it is only women who "do the dirty" on their partners? Certainly not Pelican. In fact I think most time it is men who are unfaithful. I do know men however that have committed suicide as a result of unfaithful women. I know many more women who have been pooped upon by their man but they seem to handle it differently.

You accuse me of dishonest representation. I was by no means trying to paint women as the 'evil' ones in relationship breakdowns, Sometimes its the man, sometimes its the woman but usually its both. I hope that clarifies it for you

Yes thank you runner. It is the first time I have read a post from you that acknowledges that men do leave their wives. If you listened to some of the men on OLO you would think a woman has never suffered hardship from the actions of a man and when they do it must be their fault.

The inevitable co-opting of the youth suicide problem to advance the homosexual agenda as demonstrated by some in this discussion is based on myths and distortions, as are so many claims by homosexual activists.
According to the non-partisan Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the risk factors for youth suicide are:
-History of previous suicide attempts
-Family history of suicide
-History of depression or other mental illness
-Alcohol or drug abuse
-Stressful life event or loss
-Easy access to lethal methods
-Exposure to the suicidal behavior of others
-Incarceration
Not a mention of homosexual oppression.
Could it be because it is a fact-based?
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/suicide/youthsuicide.htm

The World Health Organisation gives suicide statistics for countries, albeit in age-amalgamated form.
Lots of luck using that data to "prove" that homosexual-friendly countries have lower suicide rates although I'm sure our homosexual activists will manage to find what they want to find.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/

Homosexuals are 10% of population - Myth/lie
Anal sex between males is no more risky than normal sex - Myth/lie
Advancing the homosexual agenda will reduce youth suicide - Myth/lie

An abysmal track record which needs to be exposed.

Parents need to spend more time with their children and stop pretending material things will substitute for parental attention and clear guidance and concern.

Children do not need parents who acquiese to the child's every whim. They need clear guidance and respect. This requires parent's to reflect on their own behaviour and consider whether they are setting the right example.

salaams

Mitchell: I think people have good reason to be depressed and your kind of bracing logic, however 'ostensibly' useful in some circumstances (like in the army), implicity backs the sick culture that is for my money to blame.

So, are you saying that if I don't cry at the drop of a hat then I'm part of a sick culture? Please explain!

I find that the only reason some people get depressed is lack of self disapline. These people have been so mollycoddled in their youth that they can't handle the real world. They want everything given to them & when it doesn't happen (in the real world) they get depressed. I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the pushers of Political Correctness.

We are unique: Have you lost a 'young' close relative or friend to suicide JayB? Do you have children who may one day be at real risk?

Yep, many, My Grand father, My wifes first husband, three cousins & a number of close friends. And maybe in the future, a daughter. Nothing I can do about it. I've tried, My ex has tried, All her friends have tried. The doctors have tried. She WILL NOT accept advice or help. We are still here for her but it's up to her.

When you have suffered a loss, that hits you hard or impacts upon your heart, JayB, your hardness and lack of compassion for other people at risk, whatever the causes, may disappear and your views will hopefully change.

I don't think so. Life is hard. It is meant to be hard to sort out the weak. That's the way real life is, unfortunately. If you cry at everything that doesn't go the way you want it to, or at everyone's misfortune then you become a candidate for suicide yourself.

Depression is not a complete negative, when coming out of a depressed period or episode is a real life cycle experience and challenge to achieve towards the opposite a positive, in finding self’s balance. Creative negativity is a natural life cycle, and it doesn’t need doting others spinning help me but their families to stop running away as if depression is some disease sponsored and endorsed by the state. The political nanny’s who want to control every feeling and have an explanation for everything is a real sick state of affairs.

Dear jayb,
I cover for Mitchell when he's indisposed.
<So, are you saying that if I don't cry at the drop of a hat then I'm part of a sick culture? Please explain!>
Yes, sort of. You're part of a sick culture whether you cry or not.
<I find that the only reason some people get depressed is lack of self disapline> You take the context for granted. Why should life require self-discipline as you call it? Self-discipline suggests a stable, if vicious, environment that only requires discipline to be enjoyed. Why is life "meant to be hard", who says? We have developed brains; why can't we make life easy, or easier? Why is life easy for some and not for others (and I'm not talking mood-swings)?
All your bluster tells me is that you're too busy puffing yourself up to think about it. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you to a point. One of my favourite essays is Emerson's "Self Reliance" (I recommend it to the depressed), but self-discipline is not necessarily the solution to life's ills. Why should we steel ourselves to our situation if it's unjust, or just wrong? Why not change it? Sometimes it takes more courage to fight injustice than to bare it. What can't be endured must be cured.