Stezza,
Earlier (16/10), were you supporting the contention that the fetus does in fact go through a fish stage and reptile stage before becoming totally human? If so, how would you support that idea?

Rudy certainly uses emotive language (he's not Robinson Crusoe here), but his srgument was not incoherent. He seemed to be saying that all humans are of similar worth, whose value shouldn't be assessed on their relative stage of development.

The life of the unique individual begins at conception. You started life as a one cell organism. The day previous to this there was no one like you with your characteristics. 

We could discuss potentiality or we could discuss reality. The reality is that when the fetus is terminated, then that life is ended. So much is obvious. 

One day when cloning is a reality, or when humans reproduce asexually as a matter of course, then we could discuss that.

As to whether this is a 'good discussion', I think that OLO is perhaps one of the few places where one could have any type of meaningful discussion approacing this one. Most of the mainstream media is quite biased on this issue. For example, would The Age or SMH ever in a month of Sundays carry an article similar to this one on their opinion pages?    

*Not all 'Religious Zealots' or 'Catholic Church' participants are 'anti-abortion' and/or 'try to make women feel guilty about abortion, with their placards waving using emotive language' Yabby.*

Unique, you are quite correct. I never claimed that they were.
Many Catholics take the pill, have abortions etc. You are confusing
some followers of the church with the official position of the
Vatican, which is where the problem occurs. The Vatican does in fact
speak for the church, like it or lump it. It is not a democracy.

I have every right to criticise the church, for a number of reasons.
The Vatican is highly political and involves itself in politics
on a global basis. As any political player, they are therefore
open to criticism. Claiming to speak on behalf of the Almighty,
does not give them any kind of immunity in the political debate.

Secondly I was sadly born a Catholic and those nuns tried their
fear and brainwashing tactics on me too, when I was an innocent
5 year old. Grown adults, should be more responsible.

No organisation on the planet, has done more to stop women around
the world, especially in the third world, from having access to
family planning. From the snip, to the pill to the condom, its
all evil in their eyes. Their lobbying and influence on this one,
go right up to their seat and office at the UN.

No organisation on the planet, is more actively involved in lobbying
against abortion, then the Vatican and its lobbyists. Globally.

Perhaps its just a coincidance that they often sing their "Ave Marias"
as they wave their placards down at the abortion clinics.

A major spear head of the anti choice campaign has been trying to define the terminology of the debate, having lost the debate on whether a woman has the right to decide her own fate.

The agenda is to try and define the foetus as a human with equal rights to the mother, and on that basis to put road blocks in place to her right to access the termination. For example, the requirement for counselling, funding issues, etc, all to make an already difficult choice more difficult and traumatic.

The attempt to define human life as beginning at fertilization would imply an inquest after a miscarriage.

A human life is only recognised legally as such at birth, and as the foetus cannot support itself outside the womb in the first half of the pregnancy, it cannot be assigned any rights as an individual.

Rudy is disingenuously pretending to be agnostic, and supporting women's rights, but spouts all the anti abortions slogans and propaganda, that is used to white ant women's rights.

I think that rudy bloke is disgusting. He's not pretending anything. He's happy to realise that human life begins in the womb, as it does. But he's also happy to have that new life in the womb purposely destroyed. He knows it's a human life, at least he admits it. I know of several people who think the same way, they know it's human life but they still support the abortion. At least they're honest, unlike others who are so disingenuous they make all sorts of ideological excuses as to why a fetus is not human and should have lesser rights than a dog.

I think in future centuries when we're more developed and knowledgeable, we'll look back at the abortionists and their supporters in much the same way that these days we look back at witch burners. They'll be looked upon as primitive and uncivilised.

I understand Yabby. My apologies. Had misinterpreted that you were including all catholics in your term 'Catholic Church'.