There never has been on these pages a more outrageous article and on this occasion, written by a Zionist as well. A Melbourne Zionist at that, no doubt a friend and associate of our compromised PM Gillard.

Where does one start. Para 2.."...the rights should be afforded as a member of the UN are ignored". Shall we discuss the hundreds of UN resolutions that the apartheid state of Israel has ignored over the period with the help of the US veto, always on hand for such a purpose.

He continues.." politically motivated agenda that is biased against Israel.." Typical of Zionist writings, a complete 180 degree misrepresentation of the facts. The Zionist state has totally ignored directions to stop the building of settlements on Palestinian land, murdering women and children, demolishing homes, levelling farming land, phosphorous bombings, destroying UN buildings, and the list goes on. We all remember Shatila and Sabra massacres, the perfidy of the USS Liberty.

He continues...'As a member of the UN, Israel should be supported...'
Why would any human being support apartheid and ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian people?

"...terror in the form of rockets from Gaza...".
Totally insignificant compared to the Israeli terrorism carried out by professionals with no regard for humanity, justice or compassion using tanks, bombers and ruthless soldiers, the product of sixty years of hate and real terror. It is now the developed Israeli culture.

May I respectfully suggest to the Zionist writer that he discontinue treating genuine Australians, not dual-passported supplanted Israelis, as stupid. We are better informed than he obviously believes and are familiar with the crimes committed by Israel, the Holocaust hate campaign for 60 years, the 'anti-semitic' propaganda exercises, all of which are now tired old mantras and have worn out their effectiveness. As in America, we are aware that Zionists do nothing for the country they supposedly belong to, but just use it for their own ends, everywhere, bhere is Australia as well.

Once the Jews deserved some consideration. Zionists deserve nothing but the contempt from the rest of the world, which they have earned.

Yes this is a disgraceful post. Nothing but propaganda, completely ignoring the reality of the situation. Israel maintains a 40 year military occupation, constantly kills the occupied people, maintains a siege on the 1.5 million people in Gaza, all the while stealing more and more of what little remains of the land for a possible Palestinian state. They then have the audacity to claim they are the victim. Unfortunately, when such behaviour is carried out by "the Jewish State" it can give the false impression that such behaviour is innate to being Jewish. Fortunately some of the strongest voices calling for Justice in Israel/Palestine are also Jewish, which helps to restore my faith in the Jewish people. I guess the Israelis have simply forgotten that the people whose land they occupy and whose children they kill and houses they destroy are human too. Perhaps very similarly to how the White South Africans forgot that blacks were humans, and perhaps Australia was once guilty of such behaviour as well. Perhaps like South Africa and White Australia, the Israelis will one day do justice by the indigenous people of Palestine and decent Jews around the world will once again be able to hod there heads high as being part of a decent and moral people.

RexW,

I see it’s OK for the self flagellating loony-left to indulge in unbridled racism, as long as it’s limited to Jews and Israel.

You say at the start of your hysterical piece “Where does one start.... “

How about you start with the addressing the facts presented by the author, which you have conveniently sidestepped.

Danny’s point is that the UNHRC is an organisation dominated by a coalition of the world’s worst violators of human rights. You cannot deny this. It’s a fact. Angola, Burkina Faso, Libya, Nigeria, Uganda, Zambia, China, Pakistan, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Cuba are among the members.

Nor can you deny that the agenda of the UNHRC is monumentally imbalanced. By 2007, the UNHRC had condemned only 1 country for human rights violation. Israel.

HOW CAN THAT BE??

“In the face of atrocities in the Sudan, attacks on civilians in Sri Lanka, and impunity for mass murder in Uzbekistan, this council was largely silent ....” Human Rights Watch

Sudan, A country which killed 200,000 of its people, is a regular sponsor of anti-Israeli motions in the UNHRC. But has Sudan been specifically condemned by the UNHRC??

As for the rest of your emotional rant.

You say "...terror in the form of rockets from Gaza...". Totally insignificant compared to the Israeli terrorism ...

It might well be insignificant to you, safe in your home in Australia. You don’t have to worry about suicide bombers stepping onto the same bus you take to work or school. Or detonating themselves in your favourite restaurant.

You say “ ... carried out by professionals with no regard for humanity, justice or compassion using ... ruthless soldiers, the product of sixty years of hate and real terror. “

ruthless soldiers?? “ No humanity justice or compassion??

How ruthless is a suicide bomber? How much justice is there in detonating a bomb in a room crowded with innocent people, where is the humanity? The compassion? ARE YOU SERIOUS??

What about the Palestinians teaching their children to celebrate their martyrs, who only EVER target innocent people. How’s that for hate and terror

Following the comments by Rhys above, he is totally right to hope that we do not lose faith in the Jewish people, the great majority of whom are decent people, NOT Zionists with their evil objectives and long term plans to control all that part of 'Ersetz Israel' currently occupied by other peoples. This is of little concern to them.

The Israelis go through the charade of "Peace Talks" with the connivance of their partner in crime, America, a weak and once proud and respected nation, now a shell of its former self, jumping to the dictates of Israel as they manipulate the US foreign policies.
It is in the US that the greatest Jewish support for a free Palestine exists, proving without doubt that the bulk of real Jews want a solution in the middle east, but NOT the Zionists.

We wish them well in their efforts.

The Zionists are to Israel what the Nazis were to Germany.They are both deceptive and shameless.

"The United Nations and human rights activists should address these issues and make the statement that they value human rights not just for some, but for all nations."

When Israel recognises and protects the human rights of all its citizens not just those that are Jewish maybe you will have a case.
When Israel stops stealing Palestinian land and ends its military control and conquest of Arab lands maybe you will have a case.
When Israel signs the NPT or better still gets rid of its weapons of mass destruction maybe you will have a case.
When Israel ceases to be a rogue nation defined by expansionism and militarism maybe you will have a case.

Do you, fellow commentators, ever get the idea that, at times, we are being set up, that articles like this one and the ones by Singer are periodically published to get us going, to incite us to go over and over the same issues which are never resolved?

I mean, Danny has made no attempt to present all the facts and, like Singer, he would deny the facts even if we gave them to him on a silver platter.

Perhaps the best way to deal with silly articles like this is to ignore them!

http://www.dangerouscreation.com

In reply to PaulL, The author is probably correct in pointing out the the UN Human Rights Council does tend to focus a great deal on the crimes of Israel. There are indeed many countries who commit violations of human rights. However, the fact that the UNHCR does not harass Saudi Arabia, does not mean that Israel does not commit crimes.
Us Westerners tend to be very concerned about the actions of Israel, because it describes itself as a western democracy. There was a ceremony in our parliament here in Australia honouring Israel on its 60th anniversary. We do not honour Saudi Arabia in our parliament. When we align ourselves so closely with a country, the evil actions of that country reflect on us.
If the Israelis wish to use the worst regimes in the world as a yard stick for their actions, then they cannot count themselves amongst the civilised nations of the world.

Certainly both sides have been breaking the Law as regards the above comments.

However, while the Arabs are only breaking the simple laws as part of Payback, the Israelies have broken a law that is against nuclear weaponry, so deadly, in fact, that Israel in the end might find itself crushed by nuclear weapons from lawful global decisionmakers.

Certainly the only thing saving Israel, could be Zionist-backed pressure from the US.

The USA has totally buckled to the Zionist will.The main reason is that they have enormous influence over the US Federal Reserve a group of 12 banks who own the US currency and loan all their counterfeit inflationary money to the US Govt.

The Fed could trash the US economy at any time like they have done in the past by restricting the money supply.They have Obama under their thumb.

David G,

I don't agree with you that Zionist propaganda should be ignored, that implies agreement. I've just finished an exhaustive (and exhausting) discussion with Zionist supporters on another, pro Zionist, blog, otherwise I'd add my criticism of this article.

Our problem is to influence our morally bankrupt political elites before the Palestinians 'disappear'.

Rhys,

You are right when you say “the fact that the UNHCR does not harass Saudi Arabia, does not mean that Israel does not commit crimes”

But the fact that the UNHRC says Israel commits crimes does not mean that Israel does.

The Author is doing a lot more than merely comparing Israeli actions with the worst regimes in the world. He’s not simply saying, there are other countries with poorer records. He’s saying, and he’s right, that the UNHRC is dominated by groups who have special antipathy to Israel. That UNHRC judgements are not fair and unbiased. That they are political in nature and should not be considered prima facie as evidence of wrongdoing.

REXW asks:

Shall we discuss the hundreds of UN resolutions that the apartheid state of Israel has ignored over the period with the help of the US veto, always on hand for such a purpose.

Well hey YES Rex.. let's discuss them.

Point 1 "UN resolutions" are determined by

a) Motions
b) Votes

The 'VOTES' depend on the political flavor of the countries concerned.
The OIC is at least 56 nations (Islamic) who always vote as a bloc and always against Israel.

Point 2 "The OIC alone can determine which resolutions are raised and approved"

OIC ="Organization of Islamic Conference"

VOTES are also determined by the network of economic/military aid packages which various 'rich' countries have invested to produce those very votes.

So.. next time you want to have an "Israel bash" in the name of your Socialist agenda.. make sure your listeners
a) Don't have brains.
b) Don't know how the UN works.

Otherwise..you will be brought to book for such clearly biased statements.

Paul'l, you have not considered Israel's illegal atomic weaponry in your argumentt,

Could say, for sure, that it is mainly why Israel is so unpopular. Ask at any of our registered government academias.

BB, WA.

Perhaps any people anxious to see why Rhys and I and others support the Jewish people, those that want an equitable solution for the middle east, should go to www.iajv.org and see what this Jewish organisation states as their objective.

Then you may also care to see the Weekend Australian, Inquirer section, page 5 to the large advertisement by this Jewish Group of Independent Australian Jewish Voices who clearly used a leader line stating......

" The attitude we adopt towards the Arab minority will provide the real test of our moral standards as a people" Albert Einstein, 1948

Yes, 1948

For those cynical commentators who do not allow themselves to accept the fact that even Palestinians have concerns for the real Jewish people, like all the members of the above group, I suggest that they look at this web site, read the objectives and remember that such groups exist all over the world. They are the real Jewish people and I am pleased to help them every day of every year.

The Zionists, however, are a different story.

I do hope our feckless Prime Minister, in her desire to cultivate these un-Australian Melbourne-based lobby groups, can tell the difference.

I doubt it.

While constantly throwing the the punch-word "zionist", nobody here (not even the author) actually defined what it means, and therefore how many adherents are we actually referring to.

Especially Arjay, saying: "The Zionists are to Israel what the Nazis were to Germany" - we do have the right to know who exactly are you referring to!

Most Israelis would consider themselves "zionist", defining it naively as "A zionist is a good and loyal citizen who helps his/her fellow beings". In Israel, helping an old lady to cross the road is considered a "zionist act". Is this what you call "Nazi"? otherwise, please define the term "zionist" so we can all talk the same language.

Yutsuyu,

I think you'll find that the author didn't use the term 'zionist'.

'Zionist ', is a perjorative term ,at least as you see it it on this thread, used by the loony-left to describe any Israeli/jew/supporter of either who doesn't fully subscribe to their simplistic/narrow worldview.

You will see it tossed about freely and it would not surprise me if most of the people using the term weren't entirely sure of what it does mean. So I'm not surprised your confused.

Rexw,

I see you are now the arbiter of who is and isn't a real Jew. Its is simply wonderfull that you have been promoted to this position. Can you please let us know what qualifications you have? Are you are born jew spotter? Or is it a learned pursuit?

Mac,

I LOVED this little bit

" Our problem is to influence our morally bankrupt political elites before the Palestinians 'disappear'."

Is it a bit like saving the spotted-tailed quoll from extinction?

How exactly are the Palestinians going to disappear? Demographically they are outbreeding the jews at a significant rate. At current birth rates, Arabs in Israel will outnumber Jews within 50 years.

In fact, I wonder if this might not be the primary cause of Palestinan reluctance to negotiate a peaceful, two state solution, now.

Dear Paul.... you make an interesting observation about birth rates.

But I'd like to add to that the fact that Settlers as a segment of Israeli population are breeding at 3 times the rate of non settlers.

This means that over time, they will dominate Israels political landscape.

If the Palestinians are facing soooooo much hardship, and poverty.. I must ask "why" are they breeding so prolifically? Well the answer is a given....

a) They expect the world to pick up the tab
b) They want to breed 'fighters' to attack Israel.

Paul.. I would value your considered input to a thread which I think you will enjoy as it unfolds... Quintus Fabius Maximus...
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4024

I apologise for the shameless self promotion :) but will show it's value soon.

PaulL,

Re 'Zionism',

"a worldwide movement founded with the purpose of establishing a national home for the Jews in Palestine, which now provides support for the state of Israel." (Macquarie Dictionary).

So, unless you're a character from 'Alice in Wonderland' and decide to define a word more or less as you choose, that's the accepted definition. I doubt that the distinction between 'Zionist' and 'supporter of Israel' makes any material difference.

As to the 'disappearance of the Palestinians', the trend since 1948 has been towards the steady expansion of Israel and the loss of Palestinian patrimony.

"At current birth rates, Arabs in Israel will outnumber Jews in 50 years"- a rather disingenuous statement(does that include Jewish immigration?)
In 50 years the Palestinians will have disappeared given the expansion of the 'settlers', there will be only 'Arabs in Israel'. Are you seriously suggesting the Palestinians choose to live in ghettos now in the hope that in 50 years time they will 'take over'? Sounds like another self-serving conspiracy theory to me, most Palestinians are concerned with day to day survival and enduring the humiliations the Isarelis inflict on them. What do they care about master plans?

Dear editors,

Is there a requirement on On Line Opinion for writers who submit articles in their own name to actually submit original material? Dr Lamm's article looked familiar to me. I seemed to have read it before. Check out http://grendelreport.posterous.com/israel-responds-to-un-hrc-committee-report-on and tell me if certain parts do not telepathic communication that stretched credulity. What you do with it is up to you it is your reputation that may be harmed by publishing this kind of article.

Mac,
Says Zionism is "... "

I agree. Since the support for a national home for Jews in a Israel is nigh on UNIVERSAL, it seems to me that a lot of people are using the term Zionist as code for Jew.

There are significantly more Palestinians today than there were in 1948 or at any time in the past 60 years. Whether they have a state they are happy with, depends to a large extent on them. After the recent refusal to accept that Israel should remain a Jewish state it seems highly unlikely they will be getting one any time soon.

Israel will not, quite understandably, give up their major negotiating position, without appropriate concessions. Because it is counterproductive.

Gaza is a perfect point in example. After leaving Gaza the attacks on Israel did not pause.In fact,it just gave Hamas better positions from which to attack Israel. Neither was the freeze on settlement matched by any significant Palestinian gesture of peace.

It is not possible to unilaterally impose peace. Israel cannot expect to remain a viable state, if they are perceived in the region to be weak. They have too many enemies. Any significant concessions without reciprocation will be seen by the Palestinians, and Israels neighbours in the region, as weakness and is more likely to be met with further violence. Pressing home a perceived advantage.

You say “Are you seriously suggesting the Palestinians choose to live in ghettos now ... ”

A nation as reverent of suicide bombers as the Palestinians are, would seem to me to have a very different outlook on what victory entails and what is acceptable sacrifice. The Palestinians choose to live in ghettos rather than allow Israel to live in peace as a separate state. The price Acceptinging a Jewish homeland on “Arab” soil is unacceptable, at least according to their elites, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. I think that there is widely held belief that they will prevail, and that time is on their side.

PaulL,

You made some excellent observations.

However, I believe that you are too optimistic (from Israel's POV). You write: "I think that there is widely held belief [among Arabs] that they will prevail, and that time is on their side". Well, if Israel continues to do nothing (but talk), then time is indeed on the Arab's side.

The occupied territories are not mere bargaining-chips as you attempt to portray - they are also a bitter reality. Israel has taken this poisonous bait in 1967 and as a result it is being corroded from within and is slowly but surely losing its moral basis of existence. Indeed, those reverent of suicide bombers are still worse, but not by far any more, and once the remaining moral gap between Arabs and Jews closes completely, there will be no Israel left.

It is a huge mistake to believe that one can be a conqueror/occupier yet somehow remain morally untainted. To recover from her poison, Israel must let go of the occupied territories, unilaterally if needs be (or better still, by signing some inferior agreement despite knowing that the Arabs have no intention of keeping it - that would at least be a propaganda victory).

Yes, there are terrible security risks, but the total-collapse and destruction of Israel that will result from continuing to hold onto the territories is more than a risk: it is a certainty!

Better withdraw now to the 1967 border. Find some pretext if needs be to mitigate the Arab sense of "smelling weakness". It could be an agreement (like in Lebanon, where it is clear that Hezbollah has no intention to keep it), or a UN security-council resolution ("Oh, we did not retreat in war, we only obeyed the UN commands"), or whatever, but this way or the other, JUST DO IT, just get out of there, Israel MUST restore its moral superiority, before it is really too late!

Moral superiority is far more powerful than territorial depth: with it, in conjunction with a strong army and nuclear weapons, Israel can win and survive. Without it, it will not.

Yuyutsu,,

I appreciate much of what you say. The occupied territories are a bitter reality. There is a settler movement within Israel who believe they can keep the occupied territories. However there's a far greater proportion of Israelis who know that they cannot.

Israel has lost significant support in the West and some of its actions cannot be condoned. But I would also suggest that Israel is held to a standard which no Western democracy would meet, were it in Israel’s position. Further, I believe Israel suffers from its alliance with the US, which is universally hated among global leftists, and thus makes an easy target. Nevertheless, Israel needs to take some responsibility for the current predicament

I wonder what benefit you believe Israel can gain from holding the moral high ground, were I to accept that they have lost it (and I would dispute that they have) Moral superiority only curries favour with the educated western middle class (a group well known for its handwringing but little else). It has no use for a country defending its existence. To put it another way, how do you see Israel's situation getting worse by losing the moral high ground.

Israel is already roundly criticized by the UN, which is dominated by allies of the Palestinians, (or more accurately, enemies of Israel and the US). The UN has lost its relevance in that respect. If Israel does not get the peace concessions now, they are much less likely in the future. Even less so if the Palestinians and their allies begin to believe that their campaign will be successful.

The fact is the Palestinians don’t want a two-state solution. Giving up something for nothing (and moral superiority isn’t much more than nothing when you're dodging bullets and bombs) will invite more, not less violence. It’s like negotiating with the Ethiopian pirates. Every time they get a payout, more turn up for work. You’re effectively saying, “if you're violent and committed” we'll give in every time. That’s a sure path to giving away everything you own

These are excllent questions, PaulL.

So what is the value of morality?

I rely on spiritual principles, so for me the answer is simple: you get what you deserve. I do understand however, that for some, a translation into concrete, mundane terms is necessary, and that's not always easy.

I say, that if you are immoral, if you take away the freedom and dignity of others, are arrogant, worship your military might, see yourself superior, believe yourself to be invincible, sing derogatory songs about your enemies, lack humility, take bad friends as allies, if you do not listen to the cries of your fellow, than you are preparing for your own destruction. It may be a while before your former merits are exhausted, but your destruction is guaranteed.

I wouldn't continue talking and dealing with the Palestinians: it has not worked and will not work, because they are only a symptom, not the problem, just like the words of the prophet Isaiah, Chapter 10, Verses 5-6: "O Assyrian, the rod of my anger, and the staff in their hand is my indignation. I will send him against a hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets". Indtead, I would only deal with the Divine, directly, I would find out how I can mend my own ways, then the rest will fall into place without further effort.

Translating the above into mundane concepts, I would use terms such as:
Determination, Unity, Integrity, Self-Assuredness, Clarity, Fortitude, Fearlessness: all these are products of morality.
Also, honour your enemy - never despise him. Some enemies are absolutely determined and cannot be avoided, but one can use sweet speech and manners to avoid having many more enemies than are really necessary.

It is not about some technical "moral high ground", but about authentic morality: true morality brings true respect from all others.

It is only fortunate for Israel to be held to a higher standard than others!

PaulL,

You're basically arguing that the Palestinians should accept their third-rate status, since it's all their fault, ungrateful bastards that they are. I'll let someone else continue the discussion--

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/40048.html

Mac,

No. I'm not.

The fact that you would draw that conclusion shows that either you didn't read what I said, or you can't distinguish between opinions that do not fit your worldview. Either way, your wrong.

Mac,

Thank you for quoting this beautiful and well-written article.
I've had the honour of personal acquaintance with the late Prof. Yeshayahu Leibowitz. While he was not a saint and quick to anger and while I had a bitter dispute with him on a scientific issue, I do agree with his political foresight.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to gauge the real situation and facts of the Israeli/Palestinian issue. Our media tends to constantly regurgitate the same position; a position not ever handled in any depth. The same olo writers submit the same opinions ...

One has to go further afield to obtain more pertinent and informed coverage. That is, of course, if the readers want this, or are happy to stay with the status quo.

One writer of interest, among others, is Khaled Abu Toameh, a journalist and documentary film maker. He appears to be open and fearless in his assessment of the situation. One may not necessarily agree with everything he states, albeit he is at the coal-face, but he is a journalist to listen to.

Khaled Abu Toameh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Abu_Toameh

Ask the Arabs of East Jerusalem: Should Jerusalem Be Redivided?
by Khaled Abu Toameh
September 28, 2010
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1575/jerusalem-redivided

Abstracts from Khaled Abu Toameh’s interview with Michael Totten.
http://occidentalisraeli.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/khaled-abu-toameh-on-the-situation/

I tried to access the full interview, however encountered the following

A Minority Report from the West Bank and Gaza (Deleted)
I had published the transcript of a talk and follow-up interview with a prominent and respectable Palestinian, and it caused a bit of trouble that neither he nor I anticpated or wanted. The transcript has been removed at his request.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/02/a-minority-repo.php

Any opinions?

Thanks for the link Danielle. I ended up here.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/01/who-really-won.php

" Far too many Westerners make the mistake of projecting their own views onto Palestinians without really understanding the Palestinian narrative. The “occupation” doesn’t refer to the West Bank and Gaza, and it never has. The “occupation” refers to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. A kibbutz in the center of Israel is “occupied Palestine” according to most. “It makes no sense to a Palestinian to think about a Palestinian state alongside Israel,” .... “From the Palestinian perspective, Israel will always exist inside Palestine.”

"From the Palestinian perspective, Israel will always exist inside Palestine."

So what? Does it mean that Israel should allow the Palestinians to dictate their lives? Israel should go by what is good for Israel, rather than what would upset the Palestinians. It is good for Israel to leave the occupied territories: whether the Palestinians will be happy about it or not is irrelevant.

I have always disagreed with the expansion of Jewish settlements into the West Bank.

However, the Green Line is the armistice line between Jordan and Israel, not an internationally recognised border. But ... as the Palestinians neither recognise the state of Israel, nor are willing to define a border (after all this time) ... it appears to come down to semantics.

Nonetheless, Jewish settlements should not have drifted beyond the Green Line. For the benefit of arriving at a two state solution, these settlements should not determine the eventual border between Israel and the Palestinians. This means that some settlements may either be deemed within Palestinian territory, or are dismantled. It is a very hard call.

Is Gaza really "Palestinian?" Prior to Israel's incursion, Gaza was a protectorate of Egypt, the Gazans speak an Arabic distinct from that on the West Bank, their familial and ecomomic ties are with Egypt. Egypt was happy to relinguish Gaza; but would it not seem practical for Egypt to resume control.

Dear Danielle,

It is very true that the West-Bank was part of Jordan and the Gaza Strip was part of Egypt, and that both have, wisely but cowardly, forsaken their responsibilities there.

Whether the Green Line is formally internationally recognized or not is a side-issue: its main importance is within the Israeli psyche, as it is the line of arrogance. The 1967 war has overturned the Israeli psyche and generated in it the worship of militarism and contempt for the enemy and subsequently for everyone who is different. For Israel to recover from this poison and regain its humility and humaneness, it must forsake its results and not benefit from the fruits of that war.

Yutsuyu,

Oh my GOD. Do you even hear what you are saying?

"The 1967 war has overturned the ___ psyche and generated in it the worship of militarism and contempt for the enemy and subsequently for everyone who is different."

Fill in the blank with Palestinian and you have a FAR more accurate sentence. It is in Palestine where you will fing young children, dressed in camouflage, toting real RPG's. and worshipping at the altar of martyrdom. There isn't a wall in Gaza that isn't plastered a dozen times over, with the faces of their suicide bombers.

Humility and humaness? Whats humane about indiscrimanate rocketing of populated areas? Where's the humility in a suicide bomber exploding on a crowded bus. There is a war on. To suggets that only one side is at fault is naive in the extreme.The sooner the Palestinians realise they must make peace, the sooner they will get their state. No matter what the Israelis do they cannot unilaterally enforce peace. It needs to be an negotiated setllement.

"From the Palestinian perspective, Israel will always exist inside Palestine."So what?

So unilaterally leaving the west bank etc, is not a step towards peace. So why would Israel, who currently have a buffer between themselves and the rockets/suicide bombers, give that up for nothing? For worse than nothing because it would encourage further attacks and those attacks would be more likely to do greater damage?

Danielle,

I agree with you, Israel has no right to the settlements outside the 1967 border. I fully understand why they would do it. How many attempts on your life do you survive before you take preventative action? Gaza and the west bank were meant to be buffers to limit Israels risk of being overrun and annhilated. Nevertheless they have no right to stay.

But nor can they leave until the Palestinians make some undertaking which will secure the peace.

Hamas refuse to even acknowledge Israels right to exist (regardless of where the borders are drawn) so I can't see them making that leap any time soon.

PaulL,

You are right about the Palestinians, and if you are their well-wisher, if you want them to have a state and live in peace, then indeed you should urge them to stop dumping such poison on their children and to stop supporting suicide bombers and rockets. Good luck with that - you will truly need it, as I don't believe there is any realistic chance to convince them to mend their ways. Sorry, I am afraid that they are beyond redemption. With such attitudes, even if they managed to defeat israel and throw its citizens to the sea, those Palestinians would remain as miserable, even more.

But as I am a well-wisher of Israel, I wish it to come back to its senses: yes, there is a bit of a war going on and some trouble from Palestinians, yes it is inconvenient, but the biggest troubles of Israel come from within. What's the point of surviving if you no longer represent anything good? Losing one's moral basis for existence is worse and more dangerous than bombs and rockets, and sadly, Israel is close to that.

An Israel that fights for lands that are not its own and for the control over other people, is weak and fragile, but nobody can defeat an Israel that is united and steadfast behind its 1967 border, with citizens that are convinced that their war is for a just cause.

"Hamas refuse to even acknowledge Israels right to exist"

Let the dogs bark and let the convoy go on. I too do not acknowledge Israel's automatic right to exist: this right needs to be earned. It is earned by living according to moral standards of justice, peace and compassion.

Yuyutsu,

You say that the Palestinians are not going to change.

You state that Israel's right to exist has to be earned. Good. But don't you agree that with terrorist attacks from without, Israel's first and primary moral duty is to protect its citizens Muslim, Bedouin, Jew, Christian, who-ever.

Yes, when a people have been constantly under seige for DECADES, its children knowing no different, it is understandable that they will retain a seige mentality. In fact, this is normal.

The fence, whilst not the monolithic monster some would like to portray, has stopped suicide bombers from entering Israel and bombing the innocent, indiscriminately, of religious/ethnic origins.

Palestinians complain that it is inconvenient and humiliating to pass through check points to enter Israel and work (also obtaining Israeli benefits). Really ... !! I spent many years subject to armed stops and searches at check points. It was necessary - any rational person saw this as so.

There are many, many organisations in Israel who want to hold out the hand of peace to the Palestinians, and actively work for this. Also, if Palestinians didn't make concerted attacks on Israel just prior to Israeli elections, undoubtedly swinging voters, I am sure one would see more doveish political leaders elected. Israel is a democracy; the voting public are influenced, as is every country, by what is happening currently on the ground.

Every thoughtful person would like to see a real and lasting peace between Palestinian and Israeli (I deliberately do not say Jew, bearing in mind Israel's multi religious/ethnic population). But if one party is going to blast off the proferred hand of the other ...

Peace needs concerted good will from all sides