Doesn't anyone know Godwin's law that as soon as you mention Hitler you've lost the argument.

HFR,

I see the mere statement that Hitler was an atheist is enough for you to conclude by some obscure thought process that I must be a religious fanatic. Who said logic is dead?

That Hans Kerri said Hitler was the new Christ is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. It is simply the mad outpourings of another Nazi.

That Nazi posters and medals had the cross on them is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. It is simply astute political propaganda by a cult that wanted to fool Christians into voting for it.

That the Vatican was the first state to recognise the new Nazi government is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. It is in fact a meaningless statement, as other governments which recognised Germany continued to do so after the Nazi rise to power as states do not recognise governments on the basis of which party is in power. They recognise the state itself.

That Mussolini supposedly “created” the Vatican state is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. The Vatican existed before Mussolini recognised it, not “created” it.

That Hitler used the Luftwaffe to bomb Spain is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. It is simply evidence that he was an evil man.

That Hitler and Stalin “are said” to have modelled the Gestapo and the KGB is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic.

That most of the Nazi hierarchy were supposedly Jesuits is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. In fact, it’s an entirely new claim, not mentioned anywhere in my study of Nazi Germany. Who were these Nazi Jesuits? Bormann? Himmler? Goering? Donitz? Frank? Heydrich? Don’t forget that you said “most”.

That Nazi criminals escaped on Vatican passports is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. It is evidence of evil by people inside the Vatican.

That child rapists have been protected by the Catholic Church is not evidence that Hitler was a Catholic. It is evidence of evil by Catholics.

I have already explained “gott mitt uns” – twice.

Thank God – I’ve reached the word limit.

Arguing over whether Hitler was a Christian or an atheist is pointless.

If he was a Christian then, so what? Rationally minded people don’t need to associate Christianity (or religion in general for that matter) with Hitler to tear it down and expose it for the unfounded, absurd and downright dangerous lunacy that it is. Religion provides us with more than enough to make a solid case here.

If Hitler was an atheist then, again, so what? There is nothing within atheism to support what Hitler did, so any attempts to blame his alleged atheism on what he did, or even associate him to other atheists in any way, shape of form - regardless of how loosely - are completely asinine.

HFR,

Argumentum ad hominem is the tactic of one who can’t win on logic or fact.

I have pointed out that John Howard did not change the definition of unemployment. By your logic, I must be a Liberal and surround myself with Liberals. I have pointed out the Victorian Labor’s positive record in education. By your logic, I must be a Laborite and surround myself with Laborites, even though the same logic has already made me a Liberal. I have pointed out that the Democrats went into the 1998 election promising to support a GST and thus broke no promise when they did so. By your logic, I must be a Democrat and surround myself with Democrats. I have pointed out on the Andrew Bolt Forum that the Nazi Party, despite its name, was not socialist or left-wing. By your logic, I must be a left-wing socialist and surround myself with socialists and left-wingers. Then again as I mentioned that Stalin was not an adherent of the Russian Orthodox Church, by your logic I must be an adherent of the Russian Orthodox Church and surround myself with similar Orthodox believers. Dare I menton that Chris Judd does not play for Sydney and thus by your logic become a supporter of the Swans and surround myself with Swans supporters?

I did look at the “gott mitt uns” and Catholic arrogance site. Neither proved that Hitler was a Catholic.

Now, as you are not too good with logic, my next question will be beyond you, but I will put it on the record any way. Where in this discussion or any other did I defend the Catholic Church from the charges that you make here? How in the name of reason is pointing out that someone is not a Catholic or that “Gott mitt uns” was on the Germany army’s belt buckles long before Hitler came to power defending that church?

You make accusations against me for which you have not a skerrick of evidence? You pretend that I have said things that I have never said. Have you no shame?

It saddens me to see so much venom from both sides in what is ultimately a futile debate. Too many Catholics scream "poor me, you have me so misunderstood" and too many non-Catholics scream insults in return. What does this do for anyone? If anything, it weakens our credibility.

"I don't know how people can still support an organization that is embedded in pedophilia." - 579. Vicious? Yes. Accurate? No. Useful? No way.

"Most of the Nazi party hierarchy were Jesuits." - HFR. Do you have any way at all of backing up this claim? How did these Jesuits - members of a celibate religious order - hide their wives from the Church? When did they find time for military and political careers amidst their 8 or more years of training and religious activities? Several were Lutherans - hardly ripe pickings for those sinister Jesuits. Some may have attended Jesuit schools (though I have yet to see evidence of this), others may have admired the Jesuits, but please put some effort into substantiating such an absurd assertion.

Thankfully, we also received this: "If the Pope is serious he must take steps to remove every last paedophile priest/teacher/layman from positions of access, power and trust and wipe out this despicable culture imbedded in the Catholic hierachy. Then keep it thus!" - divine_msn.

Such a valid statement. Words, excuses and accusations are pointless. Action has a purpose and, if there is a way forward for the Catholic Church (and I hope there is), it is by 'fessing up to the past and building a better future. The Catholic Church has a very glorious history; it also has a very terrible one. The reality is that the past misdeeds of the Catholic Church are also the misdeeds of humans and, most commonly, of men. To attribute their evils to their Catholicism is just a useful way of detaching ourselves from the reality that we, as human beings, have a lot of growing up to do.

mac,

As you can probably see what HFR does not, I have not justified any collaboration by the Catholic or any other church hierarchy with Hitler. All I did was to correct HFR’s claim that Hitler was a Catholic by quoting some anti-Catholic statements by him (which carry more weight than what he said on his way to gaining power) and to point out that Hitter had nothing to do with the slogan on the German army’s belt buckles - the significance of which escapes me - for which I was greeted with a torrent of guilt by association abuse.

The Catholic Church in Germany, like the other churches other than the Jehovah’s Witnesses, did not resist Hitler, apart from when he decided to kill disabled people. Of course, resisting him would have been easier in 1933 than it was in 1938. I really recommend you read the Evans series on the Nazis. It is the most impressive work of history that I have read and helped me understand what life was like under the Third Reich.