It is one thing to have a good Minister but also needed is a Department that is responsive to the needs of Indigenous health. A "snow" job is too easy for bureaucrats if challenged to extend their thinking beyond the parameters of a program previously agreed upon through COAG. Flexibility is needed and the present DoHA structure and organisation is not geared to that.
This article is correct in its assertion that health services are "not enough". The role that overcrowded housing, poor employment and training opportunites and the flow on effect each of these has to poor school attendance needs far more attention in my view than increased health expenditure. As Prof Fran Baum said to a conference in Darwin last year "what good does it do to treat people's illnesses then give them no choice (but) to go back to or no control over the conditions that made them sick?"

If the World Health Organisation can dramatically lift the health of people in underdeveloped countries through a very simple, available program what prevents it from being applied in Australia?

Many of the serious diseases and health problems affecting Aboriginals come from poor basic hygiene practices which are well catered for by the WHO program. Implementing that, particularly through educating young mothers doesn't take another bureaucratic structure with a gaggle of bureaucrats, consultants and advocates black and white, dedicated to siphoning off the allocated monies while the drunken, lawless, thieves, vandals and bullies in communities take the remainder.

What should concern taxpayers and the young Aboriginal women and children who are the real victims of the endemic corruption and violence is that the recommendations of the government's own auditor and other major reports over the years are once again being forgotten as the emotional spin gets going again.

It is the vested interest of bureaucrats, professionals and other hangers-on who make their daily bread from the indigenous 'industry' who prevent simple, practical solutions and that is obvious through their demands for separate, poorly accountable (or unaccountable) bodies to 'represent' Aboriginals. Once again there will be the argument that indigenous organisations and people cannot be expected to accountable for monies - well isn't it somehow racist (sic) to be monitoring outcomes against performance indicators? As for transparency of decisions and audit trails, that is always too much to expect, right?

Cornflour,

There are already around five thousand Indigenous organisations in Australia, employing perhaps tens of thousands of relatives and friends, with a combined budget into the billions. The main purpose of many organisations appears to be to maintain the current income stream and employment make-up of the organisations. Period.

I'd take a wild guess and say that the majority of Indigenous people have no desire to come within cooee of these organisations: they prefer to try to get by without them and, on the whole, are succeeding.

It's called self-determination.

Whether there is or is not a minister with the title of Aboriginal health is unimportant if it is just window dressing. If the health minister could make some real ground in this area instead of making another grand announcement that ultimately leads to nothing we would not have to worry if there was a special minister or not.

After 30 years working in the health system, including in Aboriginal Health, I find myself rather cynical about allocating a minister just for Indigenous health.
This position has apparently been in place since 2008- but what good has it done? Indigenous health is still in an appalling state.

We need to provide the same health care for all Australians, and provided by medical staff from all walks of life.

Many Indigenous health workers that I have worked with tend to deal with their own family groups or tribal areas. I have often been told that they can't possibly see that sick person from another family group- even though they are all Indigenous.

Any money allocated to some so-called elders in some Aboriginal communities for health care are often squandered on non-health items.
This money is continued to be provided for years- despite many Government departments knowing what is going on - in order to avoid looking like racists for stopping the supply.

Provide these people with the same health care workers and professionals as every other Australian. If we stop the political correctness and blatant racism displayed by some health providers and some Indigenous people, we may start to see some headway into improving Indigenous health.

If some Indigenous babies or children are obviously ill and neglected continually by their parents, then they need to be removed from that situation- just as children from other races are removed for the same reason.

Suzeonline, the problem with your removal policy is that entire remote aboriginal communities would be close to without children, while the kids are fostered out, fed properly, get correct medical attention, are educated about the wider community and are trained to serve the wider community. A modern version of this would also incorporate whitey coming in and forcing his education onto aboriginal parents as a condition to get their children back. Kinda sounds to me like a re-visit of the stolen generations all over again.

The medical, social and cultural needs of aboriginal people, especially those in remote communities, are completely different to the medical, social and cultural needs of the wider community.

The only solution to the health crisis of the aboriginal population is a broad approach covering all aspects of culture,health and history, and it must be done on an "inclusive" basis. Whitey coming in and saying "tut, tut, that's not how you do it, THIS is how you do it" is doomed to failure, as history shows.

Transki, it is politically correct, well meaning people like you who are dooming some Indigenous children to a life of abuse, neglect and early death. All in the name of some misguided notion of ensuring the 'stolen generation' never happens again.

I never suggested the kids should leave their communities at all. They should stay with friends or family who will treat them like they deserve to be treated. There are good, kind people in all Aboriginal communities - thus ensuring that not all kids would be removed, as you seem to think would happen.

Are the numerous present day Indigenous children, who are being abused and neglected today, to be ignored in the interests of ensuring we never have another 'stolen generation'?

We can't ignore them, or the cycle of sexual abuse, domestic violence and neglect will just go on and on.

Suzeonline when you wrote they need to be "removed from the situation" you did not qualify that statement in any way whatsoever.

Unfortunately, it's politically correct people like you suzeonline, who make no distinction between removing aboriginal children in remote communities compared to removing children from an inner city broad community, who have traditionally been responsible for dooming some aboriginal children to abuse, neglect and cultural isolation.

I repeat, as I said earlier, the health, social and cultural needs of remote aboriginal communities are NOT the same as the wider community. You have just shown you don't understand that basic fact of life for these people.

Coming in as an outsider, and informing these people that YOU know what's best for them NEVER works. That approach is the same tired old politically correct way of doing things that's failed dismally for over 200 years. Drop the political correctness suzeonline, and think about the aboriginal people. We need to stop blaming them for what we've done to them over 200 years. The only thing that can work is an all encompassing "inclusive" approach. People need to understand that traditional aboriginal people are not inferior people to the wider community of Australia - - - - the old style political correctness of "we know best" has worked against aboriginal people, not for aboriginal people. All my comments on this thread refer to remote aboriginal communities.

The Prime Minister’s announcement of her new Ministry last Saturday provoked an anxious response from the "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health sector"
Some of the Aboriginal Elite. With appropriate noises at appropriate times.

“A number of organisations, including ANTaR, publicly expressed their concerns about this change and the shift it seemed to signal.” More of the Aboriginal Victim Industry (AVI) Bull Shot !!

"Post by suzeonline, Friday, 17 September 2010 10:24:25 PM."
This one's all-right.

Post by Loudmouth, Friday, 17 September 2010 5:23:41 PM
"There are already around five thousand Indigenous organisations in Australia, employing perhaps tens of thousands of relatives and friends, with a combined budget into the billions. The main purpose of many organisations appears to be to maintain the current income stream and employment make-up of the organisations. Period.
I'd take a wild guess and say that the majority of Indigenous people have no desire to come within cooee of these organisations"
This part of this one is good too.
Arthur Bell. For more info www.whitc.info

Transki <"We need to stop blaming them for what we've done to them over 200 years."

I don't know about you Transki, but I have never 'done' anything to Indigenous communities in my lifetime.
I don't have any guilt like you seem to feel.

I have worked in Aboriginal communities in the North of Australia, as well as with Urban Aboriginal people. Have you?
I don't draw a line at only assisting remote community Indigenous people.

The only way of dealing with Aboriginal health issues is with education.
We can't keep looking back in history and blaming all their health problems on everyone else.
They need to take some responsibility for any changes that need to occur.

We need to use 'white' people to provide the bulk of the health care to these communities simply because there aren't enough qualified Aboriginal health professionals to deal with the huge issues involved.

We can't ignore the abuse and neglect of innocent children in any community - Indigenous or not.

Transki,

The inconvenient truth is that the Aboriginal groups which have had the least involvement with non-Indigenous people, who have suffered the least, who are on their own land, who are not within cooee of any whitefellas, seem to be the groups with the worst health problems, the highest rates of domestic violence and child abuse, and of murder and suicide. They also seem to be the most utterly dependent on all manner of outside support, so 'self-determination' seems to have turned into its opposite over the last forty years.

Meanwhile, mainly in the south and in cities, more than 25,000 Indigenous people have graduated from universities around the country. Enrolments and graduations are at record levels. Indigenous women are commencing university study at a HIGHER rate than NON-Indigenous Australian men. Not being on their own land, they nevertheless are seizing the opportunities that are available and putting in the hard work to make something of their lives - which might be described as 'self-determination'.

Suzeonline you know very well what is meant by "we need to stop blaming them for what we've done to them", so please drop the Howard era political correctness of "I have never 'done' anything". You know EXACTLY what I meant, and twisting it to "imply" what it DOESN'T mean does you no service at all. Please drop the political correctness!

You wrote "I don't draw a line at only assisting remote community indigenous people". With that statement you falsely imply that I do. Nice trick there suzeonline, you can't debate reasonably so you make up things that you imply I beleive in, then argue against those made up things. They call that the "strawman" argument.

You wrote "we can't keep looking back in history and blaming all their health problems on everyone else" and "the only way of dealing with Aboriginal health issues is education". You are wrong, wrong, wrong. The only way of dealing with it is a multifaceted and "inclusive" combination of ALL the issues that have lead to the current dysfunctional state of affairs, of which "education" is but one. There is NO clean, easy, simple solution. The history, both recent and past IS a vital ingredient to understanding culture and the people themselves and why the current state of affairs exist. To deny history is 100% pure political correctness. Drop the politics suzeonline, and think about the aboriginal people themselves.

You wrote "they need to take responsibility for any changes that need to occur"; more political correctness there from you suzeonline. Why is that so? It's because "implied" in that statement is that the aboriginal people of Australia have only themselves to blame. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of aboriginal culture. It's a typical old time "whitey" approach of "let's edgycate 'em, tell 'em what's good for 'em, and if it doesn't work we'll just blame THEM".

Suzeonline, we need to do a whole lot more than just "education". Your post shows to me you have a fundamental lack of understanding of culture.

Transki, the truth hurts doesn't it? Loudmouth speaks the truth above.
Did you read his post?

Transki <"The only way of dealing with it is a multifaceted and "inclusive" combination of ALL the issues that have lead to the current dysfunctional state of affairs, of which "education" is but one."

If everything I suggest is wrong, then by all means tell us all exactly what you suggest will assist Indigenous health?
What are 'all the issues"?

Have you ever had any direct contact with Indigenous people's health issues?
If you haven't, then you really have much less of an idea of how to help improve Indigenous people's health than I do.

If the answers were that easy, then we all would have worked it out long ago, because no one wants to see children suffer.

Transki,

Well, in Suze's defence, you did write: "All my comments on this thread refer to remote aboriginal communities." [Saturday, 18 September 2010 2:06:31 AM]

Tranksi,

I am intrigued by your statement, that, if standard child care rules were applied to the care of Aboriginalchildren in remote communities,

"entire remote aboriginal communities would be close to without children, while the kids are fostered out, fed properly, get correct medical attention, are educated about the wider community and are trained to serve the wider community."

Yes ? And your point would be ? Both Suze and I have lived and worked in communities, but she's a much nicer person - I have a less sympathetic viewpoint about taking children into care who are in some very real danger.

Go on, ask me - would I support such a policy ?

In a heartbeat.

Does it come down to: culture vs children ? I think this is a false dilemma, but if you want to push it, I would still side with the children. Suck it up.

OK, I can now see that suzeonline is not serious about the subject matter. She writes "the truth hurts". What a pathetic statement. Apparently according to suzeonline, it's supposed to "hurt" me because aboriginal people who have been assimilated into broad society have better health outcomes. Sheesh! She clearly doesn't give a stuff about the subject matter. She wants to score points and "win".

She arrogantly asks "what are all the issues". She knows exactly what all the issues are, yet chooses to address only one, education. Again, she asks that question in order to point score. She wants to "win" and be seen to "win". She's clearly not serious about this.

She keeps asking what experience I've had with aboriginal people. By her "manner" of asking it's also clear she's not serious. She wants to "catch me out", hoping that I've never had any contact with aboriginal people, which in her mind allows her to then adopt a politically correct moral high ground as she's had some contact with aboriginal people. She then thinks this allows her to "win". Clearly she's not serious. She finishes with the phrase "suck it up". That speaks for itself.

It's pointless in engaging with someone who simply doesn't care.

EDIT for my above post - - - Loudmouth was the person who finished with the phrase "suck it up". Birds of a feather flock together it seems.

Loudmouth, yes I did write "all my comments on this thread relate to remote aboriginal communities". However what you conveniently didn't mention is that suzeonline twisted those words to mean that I didn't care about aboriginal people in other areas. She wanted to score a "point" and "win", and she twisted what I wrote in her failed attempt to do so. I have over 40 years of direct medical support to remote communities in NT QLD WA and SA. Eleven years of those 40 years have been spent in permanent residence within communities. THAT'S why I have directed my comments towards remote communities, that's where my history and direct involvement lies.

You ask "and your point would be?" regarding something I wrote. Well my point is precisely what I actually wrote (in rather plain and simple
English). That is, if children are removed from remote communities in order to be assimilated, educated, get better clothes/shelter/education/health outcomes then those communities would be left minus all those children. So Loudmouth, what don't you understand about that?

Loudmouth you write "I will still side with the children". It's not a case of "siding" with anyone or anything. That's why your politically correct stance of removing children in remote communities has failed, failed, failed these children and entire communities for countless decades. Some whiteys NEVER learn. They think that by forcibly imposing white, culturally inappropriate solutions on remote black communities they'll get results. IT NEVER WORKS. IT EVER HAS.

But that's it for me, I won't contribute more to this thread. I can see it's pointless engaging with people who clearly don't understand, and don't want to understand, the complexities of the subject matter. Go ahead and score your "points" folks in subsequent posts, that will really help aboriginal people won't it!

Transki, despite your big dummy-spit above, you still haven't actually said what YOU think will help Aboriginal health problems?
But now you have left the thread, we will never find out.

How about asking the Aborigional communities what they want to do, instead of saying this is the best way of helping them.
I beleive the best for these kids is to be removed from the remote communities, no matter what the move is named. These people live in a hopeless situation, with the white mans booze, these people are lost, unable to go bush, any and all moneys spent on the remote communities is a dead loss. Sepparation is the best option for the kids, or the cycle will continue

Suzebaby, I don't think he did a dummy spit. You started it with the personal attacks and misrepresentation, so who'd want to debate the subject with you? Not many people I bet.

You and that other bloke got out debated by someone who has had a great deal more experience than you. And you don't like that; well too bad! Live with it and move on.

I've just gone through this topic again, and I ask Transki to come back. Please come back as certain aspects of your posts are a breath of fresh air. I'm sure your posts would be appreciated by many people who are genuinely concerned about indigenous heath issues. You're an insider and I can see you care deeply, and we need perspectives from people like yourself, instead of people who think they can impose solutions from the outside. Please come back, your view is appreciated.

Jockey,

Why do you slag Suze and me as "people who think they can impose solutions from the outside" ? I certainly believe that the people themselves have to be prepared to implement any workable solution, and our point (so I thought) was precisely that people have to do it for themselves, otherwise 'self-determination' is a dirty sham, a mealy-mouthed apology for utter dependence.

There can be no solution which does not involve the people themselves, they are the ones who have to get off their backsides, look after their children, expose and expel child-abusers and violent drunks, and otherwise act like the capable human beings that they can be.

These dreadful problems will only get worse, as long as the people involved think that outsiders will do it all for them.

But I am beginning to suspect that that is precisely what many people in remote settlements think 'self-determination' means - the power to get others to do it all for them, and in a grotesque way, that the less they do for themselves, the more 'self-determination' they have.

Joe

Jockeybaby, you have no idea what experience Loudmouth and myself have had with Indigenous Health issues.
I am a community health nurse with 30 years experience, but I guess that is not the 40 years that Transki claims?
I would like to know in what capacity Transki worked in these communities.

Transki did his/her own "...personal attacks and misrepresentation...," if you read the posts.

All I wanted to know is what solutions Transki had to improve Indigenous health and to help save kids from emotional, physical and sexual abuse in Aboriginal communities.

I may sound a bit cynical, but if you had seen what I have seen, then so would you be.
I had to walk away from that sort of nursing for my own sanity.

I can see why you two exasperated Transki. Loudmouth, you are blaming indigenous people for their plight in your post, whereas Transki was pointing out it is FAR more complex than that. Your attitude in your above post is exactly what Transki described - - - - people coming in from outside imposing solutions and blaming indigenous communities. Transki has the insight, you don't.

Suze, he did NO misrepresentation. Almost all his replies were in response to YOUR personal attacks and innuendo and misrepresentation.

Based on those 2 replies above, I can easily see why Transki was exasperated.

Anyway, no point in me defending him, as neither of you will listen. He can come back if he wishes.

Thanks for your reply, Jockey,

No, I'm certainly not blaming people for the situation they are in, not entirely, but I do suggest that self-determination means that the people themselves must find ways around the problems that they find themselves in: who did what in the past is somewhat irrelevant, it's done and it can't be undone. Never forget history, but there is little to be gained by simply finger-pointing.

Surely self-determination means that the people themselves must decide - without necessarily involving yet more outsiders, and yet more outsider dollars - what are the problems, what to do about them and how to implement the solutions.

In other words, to construct and implement their own policies about their own issues. Their problems, their solutions - and of course, their right to make mistakes, over and over again, ad nauseam.

Frankly, I don't spend a single second thinking about solutions to those problems - it's not up to me, so why should I ? There are more important Indigenous issues to be concerned about, Indigenous successes and achievements to come to grips with, such as 25,000 university graduates and what their positive impact may be on Indigenous futures.

Who's talking about self determination? I think Transky said we should be inclusive, which means involving indigenous people in the decision making and rectification process. "Self determination" is an entirely different subject.

You said about indigenous people, "their right to make mistakes over and over again, ad nauseam". You ARE blaming indigenous people. You did not mention one word about mistakes from others.

I can see you have an agenda or spin on indigenous health issues, it's probably politically or philosophically based. Whereas I can see Transky had a "genuine" concern for the people themselves, and I thinks he's on the right track when he says all the issues that have brought about the current state of affairs on remote based indigenous people must be addresses for there to be a worthwhile and lasting solution. He seems to know what he's talking about, maybe you should listen. But based on your last post I doubt you're interested.