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The Forum > Article Comments > Australia racist? Well, der! > Comments

Australia racist? Well, der! : Comments

By Bill Collopy, published 30/8/2010

Australians like to think we left xenophobia behind with the days when we couldn't buy bok choy at the supermarket.

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Yes, Australians are racist .. no big surprise there.

All the people who come to Australia are as racist as the original inhabitants. Probably the most demanding of special treatment and rules and who cares about anyone else are the original inhabitants, they certainly do not seem to want any competition in that regard.

The articles I see here and elsewhere all tend towards white angle saxon types, being the racists - that's a really out of date concept, since WWII many other whites and non-whites have moved here and do not have an anglo saxon background.

it's convenient to blame it all on those people, but really that just avoids then examining the reality which is the free for all that is racism in Australia.

Mulitculturalism doesn't work here, we tend to cluster where we are comfortable and if someone moves in next door from another group, it fractures our neighborhood. Oh you can be friendly, but mostly people just pretend they are not there.

People I know tell me where they grew up in Australia, all your neighbors were friends, but they were also culturally similar, not any more.

I see this racism all over the place, someone pointed out to me recently that you never see a non Chinese working in a Chinese restaurant, is it because they eliminate anyone non-Chinese sounding before the interviews, do they ever interview anyone non-Chinese? Could they be .. racist?

It's unacceptable to employ on race grounds int his day and age, surely? Or is a blind eye turned, because they are not white anglo saxon background? Imagine if McDonald or like tried to employ that way .. oh the outcry!

Just an example of course, but as valid as the author's example I'm sure.
Posted by Amicus, Monday, 30 August 2010 9:31:14 AM
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A much more compelling case can be made for Australia being one of the least racist countries in the world. China, India, the US, Japan, South Africa, France, Switzerland, UK, Russia. Australia is better than all of them.

In several countries even the locally born people are discriminated against because they are in the wrong caste or from the wrong tribe or wrong part of the country. Maybe Bill's next article will reveal how Queenslanders hate New South Welshmen and call them cockroaches in a special sacred ceremony on three Wednesdays each winter.

When we say that Australia is a rich country, we think about the average Australian, we don't tell an anecdote about a homeless person who doesn't have any money. When we say that Australia has a good education system we think about the Average Austalian and a 99% literacy rate. When we talk about racism, though, we always pick the worst case and then imply that although we don't think so we are all really just like that worst case.

Racism is a complicated and difficult issue and Australia does damn well.

I couldn't read a couple paragraphs on page 3 that were blocked by an IBM ad.
Posted by ericc, Monday, 30 August 2010 9:42:45 AM
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"Australia's multicultural experiment remains a work in progress, relationship by relationship."

I'm tempted to say "der" but instead I have a question. I hope posters will take it seriously.

Can a multi-cultural nation be stable IN THE LONG TERM?

The auguries are not good. One thinks of Lebanon, Yugoslavia and Cyprus. Turkey is fighting a low level civil war against its Kurdish minority.

If posters answer I hope they will do so dispassionately taking the world as it is, not as they would like it to be.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 30 August 2010 9:52:34 AM
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Well said ericc. Shrill and angst-ridden claims of inherent Australian racism ignore the many positive aspects of this country when it comes to relationships between races and often just push people further apart. Barack Obama's speech regarding race during the last U.S election remains the most compelling, convincing and adult analysis that I have heard or read.
Posted by Dick, Monday, 30 August 2010 10:14:25 AM
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"I see this racism all over the place, someone pointed out to me recently that you never see a non Chinese working in a Chinese restaurant, is it because they eliminate anyone non-Chinese sounding before the interviews, do they ever interview anyone non-Chinese? Could they be .. racist?"

And on the other side of the coin, walk past a Chinese restaurant, see non-Chinese people working there, and feel your reaction: “I’m not eating there, the workers aren't even Chinese!"

People judge whether to eat at Asian restaurants on how many Asian customers are eating there. 'It has to be good/authentic if people of that particular race are eating there'

It's not racist to recognise that the best Chinese food is often cooked by Chinese people, and not racist to recognise that customers prefer to eat Chinese/Indian/Mediterranean/Thai etc food served to them from a person of that race, it makes us feel like it's authentic and home made.
Posted by Elise, Monday, 30 August 2010 10:29:04 AM
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I don’t know that you can judge the prospects for the long-term stability of Australia by the experience of countries like Lebanon, Yugoslavia and Cyprus. They were and are the product of specific historical circumstances which are different from Australia’s history.

The three countries you mention are variously the product of the break-up of historically multi-ethnic empires in the 19th and 20th centuries, colonialism and the machinations of European power-brokers, the rise of ethnic-based nationalism, the exploitation of unresolved tensions and past conflicts by unscrupulous politicians, demagogues, military coups and dictatorships to name some of the factors.

Inter-ethnic conflict seems usually to be the result of systemic discrimination by ruling majorities in countries where there is marked economic, social and political inequality and a failure to adapt to change in inclusively constructive ways.
Posted by tonyf, Monday, 30 August 2010 11:15:20 AM
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There is some indication that Australian
intergroup relations are improving, but
the process as the author indicates still
has a long way to go. In the past it was
always desirable to maintain modified
English institutions, language, and culture
as the dominant standard in Australian life.
In practice, "assimilation" historically
always meant Anglo-conformity. In the past
decades we've had a series of distinct
but coexisting groups, each preserving their
own tradition and culture, but each loyal
to broader national unity. This has resulted
in a high degree of cultural pluralism.

Current indications are that for the foreseeable
future at least, Australian race and ethnic
relations will be conducted primarily within a
pluralist framework. Pursuit of cultural
pluralism can be a dangerous course, however, for
it presumes some degree of ethnocentrism on the
part of the participating groups, and it can
provide a workable solution only if it is based on
equality, respect, and interdependence.

But if Australians can achieve that, then finally,
after several centuries, the question of "Australia
racist?" may be resolved.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 30 August 2010 11:24:54 AM
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[Deleted for profanity].
Posted by Peterson, Monday, 30 August 2010 11:25:18 AM
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@stevenlmeyer your examples of (the former) Yugoslavia, Lebanon and Turkey are all countries that aren't really multicultural in the Australian sense. They are countries that have two or three cultures sometimes forced together who have very long histories that have included political, cultural and religious disagreement and war. I'd be hopeful that these cultures may find peaceful ways to coexist but the issues faced in those countries are quite different to what is faced in Australia I think.
However, I have wondered if the Anglo cultural and population dominance (and the Anglo perception of such) does act to keep some racial problems in check in Australia (and the U.S, Canada). I mean this in the sense that the dominant culture may just 'tolerate' cultures while they feel they are not 'threatened' by them. It would be interesting to see what might happen if that dominance is ever challenged. Indeed, in some ways it already is being challenged as the economic and social benefit of being multiracial and multilingual has already been noted in some research. Perhaps this has been the cause of some racial stress as particularly working and lower middle class people have struggled to maintain job security in a global economy. Many post-war migrant communities are now on to third and fourth generations and are starting to experience the same social problems of the wider community that the first generation largely avoided as a result of traditional cultural values and a new-migrant work ethic. This may perhaps add to whatever Anglo perceptions exist that multiculturalism is a bad thing even though the 'migrants' are in fact born and bred Australians.
The U.S may be the first to experience this as I believe Hispanics are on track to outnumber Caucasians sometime this century. If a balance of power change takes place, or if it doesn't, then there is potential for greater racial problems. All the more reason to keep working on the wealth, education and health issues that are among the root causes of racism.
Posted by Dick, Monday, 30 August 2010 11:48:18 AM
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Australia is probably no more or less racist than anywhere else really. Why is it so bad to be racist anyway? If foreign folks moved in nearby and made a big fuss about how their way is the only way, and refused to change their ways to fit in here, who could blame the people for being a bit peeved about it?

Example, Bankstown. Used to be a working class Aussie suburb. The number of muslims living there wanted a mosque, and so a huge minarette is constructed with loudspeakers blaring out the call to prayer five times a day. If you were one of the original working class Aussies, you'd be a bit racist too.

Another example, aborigines. Those most accepting and keen to apologise for all the awful things in the past (they were indeed awful), almost never live near any aboriginal people. Those considered least tolerant and most racist, often deal with them on a daily basis.

In the past, immigrants have wanted to fit right in. Presently, as in the rest of society it is all about the individual getting the best deal for themselves. Why would it be racist to simply ask prospective migrants "Do you really want to move here? we dont follow religion that much, girls wear bikinis, we drink beer and watch the footy"...
Posted by PatTheBogan, Monday, 30 August 2010 12:34:15 PM
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Of course, there is an element of racism in the community. As there is with all communities.

All things in this world are relative however. Before pointing the finger at Australia, there's a few things I'd like to point out.

First, can you name countries less racist than Australia? Once upon a time, England perhaps though the recent backlash against immigration would tend to negate that. Same goes for a number of Scandinavian countries.

Japan? Immigration isn't even permitted. China? Same goes. I've been somewhat disturbed by the number of Chinese people I've met who make negative generalizations about black people. India? Look no further than the caste system. A fair number of nations throughout the middle east are doing their damnedest to wage war on their minorities and it's not exactly a poster-area for multi-faith cooperation, so I don't think we're about to call them poster-children for cooperation.

That leaves the US, which ironically tends to be accused the most of causing harm due to their superpower status. I'd say the US is probably the only country that is less racist than Oz, given their long history of immigration (and yes, despite certain attitudes prevalent in the south of the country).

Australia racist? Compared to who?
Posted by TurnRightThenLeft, Monday, 30 August 2010 12:41:48 PM
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TRTL - agreed, if that's the focus of the article, that we are less racist than many other countries, no problem.

but rather than always trying to find the level of our racism amongst other countries, like a league table, which doesn't help us solve anything, let's stop bringing in more racism

clearly many of the people immigrating to Australia bring not only their racism with them, but also their intolerance - they even send "back home" for wives, rather than amongst their new country folk .. i.e. Lebanese. How is that contributing to their new country - they want nothing to do with the people here at all, any of us.

As we try to improve, then we bring other countries into the mix, like Somalis who mostly struggle to fit it. It's no fun for them getting here to find, that it's not the wonderland they thought it would be. yes, many people who are refugees and immigrants want to get out of where they are - more so than fitting in where they are going it seems.

It's always going to be a work in progress .. but I don't think there will ever be complete acceptance

Maybe that's the way it is, multiculturalism is a failed experiment, we're just unfortunate we're a part of it.

Like Slobodan Milosevic said, some people are like cats and dogs, if you put them in the same box, they'll kill each other. He might have been a lot of things, but he knew people.
Posted by Amicus, Monday, 30 August 2010 12:59:49 PM
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Stevenimyer, your question is silly. Why? The answer depends on what happens in the future.

For example, the Chinese assimilate fairly well here and are good citizens. But if China replaces America as the world's dominant, aggressive imperial power then Australians, being generally pro-American, could turn on people of Chinese origin.
Posted by David G, Monday, 30 August 2010 1:33:35 PM
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Can I please ask that someone explain to me how stating “Australian’s are racist” is not in and of itself, racist?
Posted by vkcr10vixn, Monday, 30 August 2010 2:03:23 PM
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A big issue in Australia like racism deserves a painstaking analysis to determine the causes on a social level;
Sadly, this "article" does no such thing- instead it's the usual collage of ignorant lazy speculation, sanctimonious assumptions, a few stupid entries that try to be witty or clever, a pointless 'history-for-dummies' that doesn't really relate, and the assumption that 'racism' is a purely stand-alone discourse. There must be windows document-wizard programs that can do this kind of thing now. Just enter your subject, and a talking paperclip will appear and ask if you would like to insert analogies to nazis, yugoslavs, convicts, turn-of-the-century racism or all of the above?

Why did OLO accept this article? It would be more at home in a celebrity gossip magazine or some other politically-challenged entertainment piece. By treating it like a socio/political article, it only helps maintain the awful spin culture where people would rather vent stereotypes and uninformed personal pet-theories than, you know, actually try to figure out what the problem is.

I might as well have read an article by Runner.
Posted by King Hazza, Monday, 30 August 2010 2:21:13 PM
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Such education, advocacy and preaching, about racial tolerance is pretty meaningless whilst Australian Parliament reserves its right to segregate, treat differently, even divide Australian families, on basis of racial testing.

Why is such necessary ?

Whilst our politicians and "fellow travelers" need retain they are busy designing, passing, and enforcing policies which depend upon racial determinations.

Why expect anything other than racism as the result ?

Exemptions from our anti-racism legislations are our problem.

Do we require victims of rape, assault or theft to accept the same rape, assault or theft must continue in order to obtain compensatio
Posted by polpak, Monday, 30 August 2010 3:38:14 PM
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I suppose now that the lies pushed by the media about whites bashing Indians have come to light the redefining of a racist will continue. Anyone seeing the stupidity of not selecting who should come to this country to protect our freedoms will be labeled racist. The funding of these multi cultural groups relies on keeping many of us labelled racist. Who really cares what they think. They are not interested in truth. Look at who is throwing dirt on our first aboriginal elected to the lower house. It would be very uncomfortable for those with leftist dogma to have these racist identified.
Posted by runner, Monday, 30 August 2010 3:39:47 PM
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Are we a racist society?
What a "der" question!!
We are NOT!!
Ofcourse we are not all squeaky clean. because we have some racists amongst us and ofcourse we have some racist jokes cracked by those who are not racist and although we have been provoked into racist attitudes which otherwise we wouldnt have been all this does not make Australia a racist country.
If you apply the criteria against us which is or should be applied against every other country on the face of the globe there wouldnt be a single country that would come out without a blemish.
Speaking personally let me confess that I have enjoyed so-called racist jokes that have come across on my computer, others I have swapped in pubs and in the work place and I have unashamedly enjoyed all of them. I have endured and sometimes laughed when jokes have been cracked at my expense. So what?
Lets not make hypocrites of ourselves and pretend we are as pure as a sheet of driven snow.
We are at our so-called racist worst when a community plans to take over our country and change the political nature of Australia, when they seek to interfere with our life style, then YES, we tend to get testy.Me first! To put it MILDLY!

socratease
Posted by socratease, Monday, 30 August 2010 4:09:41 PM
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Racist just means White, it's an opinion based on an interpretation of White behaviour toward other races.
Non White people can't be racist, because they're not White, if you're interpreting their behaviour as Racist you'd be wrong because you're expecting them to behave like White people, you're projecting Whiteness onto non White people.
Anti Racism is a code word for Anti White.
Any action that's taken or any policy that's made in the name of anti Racism is inherently anti White.
If anyone's wondering why anti Racism isn't a high priority in this country then they can't be too bright can they?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 30 August 2010 5:01:31 PM
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Why do the racists always accuse reasonable people as being racist ? Haven't they got anything else to start an argument about ? Getting rather boring lately, not even our resident OLO chief bleater of racism has bothered to put it's two bob worth in here. That's saying something !
Posted by individual, Monday, 30 August 2010 7:14:36 PM
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hilarious...HILARIOUS... how cheap and whacky is the article.

Want proof? :) I have it....

Let's see first though, what the goal of this article was.

"US" 'Australians' = 'white anglo' it would appear, strongly implied.

'They'= leb,pole,maori etc.. insert as appropriate.

"We White Aussies are 'der' level racist towards all these others.

But wait.... let's look CLOOOOSERRRRRRR

1/ ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCE (Dandenong)

Zara is called a 'terrorist' etc by 3 younger girls.

2/ DEMOGRAPHICS.

1 in 3 people in Dandenong is from a NON English speaking background.

CONCLUSION.

a) 2 of those 3 younger girls were from a non English speaking background. (or..could have been 1 with the other 2 English speaking)

b) Thus.. they might just as well have been Christian Iraqi's who have been viciously persecuted by the male side of the hijab, Muslim Males in Iraq.

or..they might have been Christian Pakistanis, who are also (now) being persecuted by the male counterpart to the hijab wearing Muslims.

or..they might have been Christian Sudanese, who are still being killed in Sudan by Muslims.

or..they might have been Christians from any number of places where their relatives or family have been killed by.... "Muslim Terrrorists"

So..when those 'unspecified' children said "You are a terrorist, you kill people" they may well have been speaking from PERSONAL experience of their own families or relatives.

So.... this offensive and weak article needs no sympathy from any of us.. rather -outright condemnation of the most strident kind.

Let's look a bit further.

"V people are queue jumpers." Actually.. to be very specific, traditional Chinese from Malaysia would fit this perfectly!

Just try it some time there. Singaporeans are good queuers..Malaysian Chinese are often.. 'survival of the fittest' Ohhhhhh how they HATE those places where you have to take a number ! ! !

They are sufficiently so, for it to be a noticable habit across a broad spectrum of their race. To notice such, or comment on it is not racist...it is purely affirming our own culture in our own land.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 30 August 2010 7:50:27 PM
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@ Individual.
Option 1: They've called No platform For Racists, which means they won't post here, that's a win for common sense.
Option 2: They've realised that when White people try to lead non Whites in a revolution it doesn't end well, ask Ernesto Guevara.
Option 3: They've realised that their BS just won't fly anymore, that when faced with the Iron Question they have nothing and that the only reason people still hold anti Racist views is that up to this point no one has been game to laugh them out of existence.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 30 August 2010 7:53:56 PM
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Phillipino Drivers......

IF.. a Filipino person brought his nations driving habits to Australia, and did what I once saw.. an old man looking straight ahead.. driving his little car the wrong way up a one way street during bumper to bumper peek hour traffic....(and getting away with it)

He would be road raged into such shape as to be unrecognizable as a human I'm sure.

Filipino drivers do NOT 'give way' as we do to people coming out of side streets (at times).. there is only ONE way to get onto a major road from a side road there.. "Grit your teeth, drive like hell, wave your hand up and down....and pray"

Do that here and you might get "You asian idiot... what the expletive) hell do you think you are (expletive) doing you moron!"

The abuser would be correct on race..and behavior.
The behavior is beCAUSE the man is a filipino..asian.

I suppose we could sanitize it a bit.. take out the "Asian" bit and leave the rest.. then it would be not racist ? Problem is.. he won't realize it is because of his 'Asian' background that he has the driving problem.

Wake up and smell the aussie roses folks..
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 30 August 2010 7:58:05 PM
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One of the feeders to racisum in Australia has to be those annoying Indians wanting to sell you a phone plan you really don't want.

Who doesn't hate those calls. Thanks Testra!

Now as a business owner, I have hung up on customers simply because they are Indian, assumming they wanted to sell me a plan.

The other problem, which has been touched on by a previous poster is, how many of the imigants that come to Aus don't like Aussies.

Now is that not racisum?

Racisum will continue here so long as people from other countries are allowed to come here and bring thier religious/political baggage with them.
Posted by rehctub, Monday, 30 August 2010 8:00:28 PM
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Herbert Spencer wrote that the greatest of infidelities was the fear that the truth may be bad; today one of the most common reasons for opposing discussion of racial differences is the fear that the truth may be very bad indeed.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 30 August 2010 8:28:18 PM
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A high school level essay portraying all immigrants as innocent victims and Australians as heartless bullies. I'd expect this simplistic, pc laden naivety from a schoolkid. For the author's information, most immigrants come to Australia because they are treated MORE poorly in their own country. In many countries you get killed for being the wrong nationality or religion. Australia is obviously a relatively tolerant society - which is why they are here.

Apologies for having to point out the bleeding obvious.
Posted by Atman, Monday, 30 August 2010 9:34:04 PM
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Jay of Melbourne

Naughty, naughty. You are not supposed to even hint at anything like that.

Dateline did a segment on Geert Wilders.

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about/id/600717/n/Mr-Controversial

Here is a link to the viewers' comments on the Geert Wilders piece.

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/comments/id/600717/n/Mr-Controversial/page/12

The comments seem to be running strongly in favour of Wilders. The "agree" / "disagree" flags even more so.

For example:

[Quote]
I voted Geert Wilders in the Netherlands. I like him! Hopefully he can rescue Netherlands. Muslims who ruin everything in the Netherlands.
[/Quote]

Agree: 32
Disagree: 6

[Quote]
Just listen to the man! Do not ignore his message. If you do so it will also be to late for australia, just like in Europe! Wilders is the last politician who has a backbone...None of the politicians has the guts to stand up (except a few others). Wanna know how it s like in Europe? Please visit Copenhagen-Brussel-Amsterdam-Paris-Berlin-Rotterdam and the first thing you gonnna wish after your return is having a politician like Wilders before it is to late! WAKE UP!
[/Quote]

Agree: 35
Disagree: 3

Here is an anti-Wilders comment:

[Quote]
Saying what you want is one thing.... This guy is dangerous, because he never is going into details but only statistics. His party is not democratic and he only rules ! History repeats after 70 years. People can be stupid and normally forget things that happend in the past (although Dutch still talk about the last WW and don't see this treath). Weird, weird.... On the other hand this is the result of the past 20 years of politics in the Netherlands, which was very known for their "Polder-Model
[/Quote]

Agree: 1
Disagree: 25

That pattern is repeated throughout. There is strong agreement with the pro-Wilders comments and even stronger disagreement with the anti-Wilders comments.

Don't know if so-called Islamophobia counts as 'racism'.

Interesting pattern from SBS viewers!
Posted by lentaubman, Monday, 30 August 2010 11:46:25 PM
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I think Australians have become less racist over the years given our multi-cultural population. We may be fearful of some cultural differencs and after 9-11 it would be unfair to say that Muslims don't get their fair share of flak. But the same applies in reverse with little respect for secularism and what is seen as lack of values as though any one race/culture/religion has the market in values and who defines what those values are.

However, some people need to get out a bit more and see the world to realise that Australia compares rather well and where tolerance is much more evident in both our legislature and within our easy going culture. Most Australians I know accept people for who they are not for where they come from and this is not out of the ordinary but very much the norm. Why do we continue to use the behaviour of minorities in regard to racist attitudes to define who we are?

Respect and acceptance can only be a two-way street otherwise it does not work and only adds to cultural tensions. There has to be open and honest debate about the influence of race in the media when it comes to events like the bashing of Indian students and the reticence in publishing which ethnic groups are the main offenders; or the rise in street gangs.

This merely inflames the situation and creates more division and defensiveness which does not assist in constructive problem solving or in counteracting the feelings of disenfranchisement of some youth in Australian culture.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 12:18:47 AM
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[Deleted for irrelevance].
Posted by Richie 10, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 5:10:27 AM
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@ Pelican.
You can talk about race with migrants, they talk about it all the time, it's only White people with a certain agenda who don't want it discussed.If they're talking about Racism they are talking about White people, you've seen the reaction I get when I stir them up, they want me reported to the Police, HREOC, they want me to get out of the country or they want me dead.
Non White people don't behave that way, I've never heard a migrant calling for White Nationalists to be killed but the Lefty/Anarchists do it all the time.
When the APP foolishly tried to rally in Newtown recently they were attacked by armed Anarchists some of whom were yelling "Die Darrin Hodges", APP are just Garden variety right wingers, they're not racial at all.
However it's as I said, apparently there's a BIG problem with Chinese and Indians beating up and harassing Vietnamese people.
Whatever the reason behind it it's not Racism as defined in the article, it's an Indian or a Chinese thing, or it might be a vietnamese thing, who knows?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 7:11:37 AM
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Australia may not be any more racist than other similar societies, but there are plenty of racists here, as the bulk of comments in this discussion demonstrate. New elected WA MP Ken Wyatt would undoubtedly agree, given the hate mail he's received since being elected.

Is Australia racist? Probably no more so than any other former European colony that was founded on invasion, expropriation and extermination.

Are there still significant numbers of unreconstructed racists in Australia? Well, der!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 7:35:02 AM
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The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination recently declared that racial discrimination is "embedded" in the Australian way of life.

Our Constitution has no entrenched protection against racial discrimination.

The Racial Discrimination Act was suspended by Howard, and remains suspended, in order to continue the NT intervention.

Would we care if acts preventing discrimination against disabled people, women, various religions, were suspended in order to carry out a government "intervention?" Yes, we'd probably be outraged.

Racism isn't something "natural." It's constructed.
Posted by briar rose, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 8:05:21 AM
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Pelican,

I heartily endorse your post of Tuesday, 31 August 2010 12:18:47 AM.

To paraphrase Kipling:

They little of Australia know who only Australia know.

Compared to most of the world Australia is a haven of racial, ethnic and religious tolerance.

Could we do better?

We can always do better. But that's a truism that applies everywhere at all times.

But, taken as a whole, WARTS AND ALL, we do pretty well.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 8:08:45 AM
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Here is a review of a book by German Bundesbank member Thilo Sarrazin:

'German banker comments raise concerns about new 'intellectual racism'

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0830/German-banker-comments-raise-concerns-about-new-intellectual-racism

[quote]
The book critiques immigration policy in Germany, a hot topic around Europe, and makes genetic arguments about intelligence linked to ethnicity, suggesting that immigrants are not as gifted as Germans and that the country is losing its identity, becoming “smaller and stupider.”
[/quote]

[quote]
The controversy comes amid a gradual mainstreaming of anti-Islamic feeling in Europe, including inflammatory depictions and often exaggerated projections about a continent on the verge of becoming a “Eurabia,” as the genre is often called, say analysts.
[/quote]

[quote]
Last fall Sarrazin said the birthrate of Muslims threatened Germany’s future and that he wished that it was “Eastern European Jews” that were reproducing quickly since “their IQs are 15 percent higher than that of the German people."
[/quote]

[quote]
Yet a distance between official and popular sentiments in Germany were affirmed by such editorials in the Stuttgarter Nachrichten yesterday, suggesting Sarrazin “is only getting so much attention because he is saying what many people feel and experience every day.”
[/quote]

[quote]
The pending book kicked up a firestorm last week as portions of it were serialized in newspapers, with passages such as this one: "I do not want the land of my grandchildren and great grandchildren to be predominantly Muslim, where Turkish and Arabic are spoken in broad sections of the country, where women wear a headscarf and where the daily rhythm of life is determined by the call of the muezzins."
[/quote]
Posted by lentaubman, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 8:32:13 AM
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Don't forget CJ that some of Wyatt's hates mail come from his own people because they despise the party that has given him the opportunity. That's an inconvenient truth for those unwilling to look at the plank in their own eye.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 9:40:32 AM
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CJ
The hate mail received by Ken Wyatt was appalling and the knowledge that most Australians have not sent him hate mail provides little comfort. As a white women I know what it is like to be at the receiving end of cultural prejudice. Racism is not owned by white people and exists with much greater impact elsewhere. I think we are pretty lucky even if we are not perfect.

Defending Australia on the racial front is in no way excusing racial attitudes and behaviours merely pointing out that we have to get this in perspective.

My concern is that the more we talk about how racist white Australians the easier it is to ignore inter and intra cultural tensions, that due to political correctness are never addressed.

Other than the obvious skin heads/Ku Klux Clan types, the strongest hatreds are often between people of the same ethnic background but of different religious sects or regional hatreds borne of a long history of civil unrest.

Real acts of racism are diminished in Australia because we are too ready to wield the 'racist' stick instead of getting on with discussing why there are tensions, where the tensions are and what we can do about them. It is not productive to pretend that cultural differences do not cause tensions in some situations. Most of the time our multi-cultural society potters along rather well. Australia has been here before and tensions diminish once second and third generation children are integrated these problems will reduce. It is difficult to create a monster out of people you go to school with, eat with and work with.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 10:45:15 AM
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Hi pelican - I certainly don't think racism in Australia (or anywhere else) is solely practised by 'whites'. As runner points out, Ken Wyatt has received hate mail from other Aboriginal people who've called him a 'coconut', while others have correctly pointed out that blatant racism is evident in non-Western countries like Japan.

However, few modern nations came into being in such a consciously racist way as Australia did at Federation, as Bill Collopy points out. Further, the penultimate Australian government had no qualms about suspending the Racial Discrimination Act in order to implement well-intentioned but paternalistic policies, and the current government has shown little inclination to reinstate it.

<< Most of the time our multi-cultural society potters along rather well. Australia has been here before and tensions diminish once second and third generation children are integrated these problems will reduce. It is difficult to create a monster out of people you go to school with, eat with and work with. >>

I agree, and I think that's a conclusion that Collopy draws as well, when he says

<< Experiences from our workplaces, schools and neighbourhoods continue to show racist behaviours shrivelling in environments of understanding and collaboration. Despite all the education and advocacy and preaching racial tolerance, Australia's multicultural experiment remains a work in progress, relationship by relationship. >>

Cheers.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 11:03:13 AM
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I don't think it is helpful to ask whether Australia is racist. It is, however, useful to try and deal with prejudices as they arise, and especially when they are widespread.

Is there racism in Australia? Clearly. Is there enough to require action to combat it? Yes. Is it confined to people with white skins? O course not. Is there more racism than there is in New Zealand? Why would that be important?

Is racism the only kind of prejudice held by significant numbers of people? No. (I object to the use of 'we' in the article. vkcr10vixn is right.)

Useful questions:
How do prejudices get a hold? Can children be brought up so that they are less likely to fall prey to them? How are they best dealt with when they arise? What prejudices do I still have? How do I discover them and root them out?

Useless questions:
Are Australians racist?
Is racism more prevalent amongst Indigenous Australians than it is amongst the non-indigenous?
Posted by ozbib, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 12:35:35 PM
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Part 1

Isn't racism defined as discriminating people based on genetic differences, different origin or culture?

Well – then the Australian Government behaves in a racist way as well.

Even immigration laws are identical for all; it doesn’t apply for all in the same way.

I have dual citizenship for Australia and Switzerland.
I am able to invite any of my European or North American friends to visit me in Australia without them facing any visa problems.
That does not work for my Asian friends with the exception of Japan.
I twice tried to sponsor my then Chinese friend to visit me in Australia and twice the visa was denied by DIMIA in 2003, while it was very easy to get a tourist visa for Switzerland.
While Swiss immigration contacts the inviting people straight way to confirm the invitation, Australian DIMIA does not.
Sure enough – the Swiss authorities also take additional steps to prevent visitors from Asia, South America.. to overstay their visa. Swiss immigration sent me a contract stating, that I am responsible for my visitors and that I have to make sure that they do not overstay their visa, otherwise I would have to pay for all administrative and deportation cost. I signed it and two weeks later my friend had a visa.

Now let’s see how it worked out in Australia:
I helped my friend to fill the forms for a tourist visa to visit me in Australia and we got a reply 3 month later:
“You could not convince the officer in charge that your intentions are genuine. We believe that your relationship to your friend in Australia is too got to go back to China” – that was the first answer.
But at the Guangzhou consulate we were told that my friend should have declared the current income. So we did and again three month later the second answer was:
“You could not convince the officer in charge that your intentions are genuine. We believe that your relationship to your family in China is not good enough to go back to China”.
Posted by chris_ho, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 1:58:35 PM
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Part 2

I contacted Hon Fran Bailey MP for McEwen and her lawyer promised to investigate at Amanda Vanstone’s department why the visa was denied again and her passport stamped twice DENIED.
The lawyer came back with the reply that my friend lied about caring for her son because his custody had been given to her ex-husband.
Nobody did check the facts. The consulate would have found that actually the son lived with her, because her ex-partner had gone to Thailand and had started a printing business.

Here we go – DIMIA accuses you for not having genuine intentions and in the next sentence they lie about the real reasons for denying the visa: Long live Australia’s fair go!
While on one side Amanda Vanstone and Philip Ruddock were saying on TV that immigrants should not come by boat and do it the official way, on the other side the consulates make it impossible to get even simple tourist visas!

I asked Fran Bailey’s female lawyer, why Australia would not consider to make the system fairer, similar to the Swiss system. But she said that it is easier just to apply immigration laws in a tougher way to Asian people.

I replied that this is collective punishment and racist discrimination.
Her reply was: It is easier this way.

Later I married my Chinese friend, but I needed to pay a lawyer $5000.- to get the visa for her and the kids.
Not that the racist discrimination from DIMIA since then would have stopped: Later again a visitor’s visa for one of my wife’s relatives was denied for no valid reasons.

No wonder the Australian government refuses to ratify the Human Rights Charter – we do not comply.
Posted by chris_ho, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 1:59:16 PM
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CJ

Some perspective please.

Non-racists elected Ken Wyatt.

Two things immediately come to mind ... there were 10's of thousands of them and they are all liberal.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 2:30:34 PM
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CJ I think you give Collopy a bit more credit that he deserves regarding the "Australia potters along pretty well" conclusion.

If I wrote an article entitled "CJ is a racist," then spent 3 pages giving anecdotes about CJ being a racist and finally summed up by saying "CJ is a work in progress" would you conclude that the real meaning of my article was to say that "CJ potters along pretty well?"
Posted by ericc, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 7:48:43 PM
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If Wyatt is "aboriginal" them I'm chinese.

It's about time we looked at 'looks' to help determine race.

If a bloke looks more 'white' than black....safe guess he is predominantly 'white'.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 8:20:47 PM
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Er, tell me again Boazy, why exactly do we need to 'determine race'?
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 9:01:40 PM
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Bill,
Name one race that isn't racist.The very nature of our humanity is insecurity,thus our tribalism seeks the security of a common identity.

You Bill,are guilty of being an intellectualist.You have a select group who feel superior to all the ignorant racists,thus are guilty of the very crimes of your perceived inferiors.

You are using the moral high ground to gratify the very same insecurities of the racists.You want to be something special by labeling racists as a lesser class to yourself.By definition, an intellectualist is no better than a racist.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 10:56:05 PM
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AlGore,

"It's about time we looked at 'looks' to help determine race.
If a bloke looks more 'white' than black....safe guess he is predominantly 'white'."

That's not much different from using looks or skin colour to determine social status, intelligence or tendency toward criminality is it?

If you only see things in those terms, maybe you've been hanging out with those BNP Neo-Nazis too long.

Even Jesus probably looked more like Yassur Arafat than some matinee screen idol.

Have you ever been on the receiving end of continual racial prejudice I wonder. Not the cheap "reverse-racism" all-purpose excuse but the real thing?
Posted by wobbles, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 11:09:38 PM
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[Deleted for irrelevance].
Posted by Richie 10, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 3:59:24 AM
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Boazy: << If Wyatt is "aboriginal" them I'm chinese.

It's about time we looked at 'looks' to help determine race. >>

Boazy racist? Well, der!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 7:03:27 AM
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ALGOREisRICH, what province of China do you come from?
Posted by Aka, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 11:40:01 AM
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I thought this was an excellent article. Its a pity its drawn some of the usual comments.
Posted by David Jennings, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 12:32:49 PM
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@ David.
It's a crappy article even without the anti White theme, I'd still dislike it even if it was well written but it isn't, it's puerile, year 10 civics class standard.
Could it be that non White people are scared of us because of a false reputation or do they somehow know more about us than we do ourselves?
Let me ask you something; Do you see Australia as an Ark where all races and their many cultures could be preserved for future generations, that is to say a "Multicultural" society?
Alternatively do you see Australia as an opportunity to destroy the concept of race and culture, a "Melting Pot" to further the efforts toward what I like to call "Planet Beyonce".
Furthermore why is is a "Pity" that people object to the article?
Why should we all agree with it? Some people don't like the idea of White genocide.
Another question if you've the time: If the people who see themselves as White and object to White genocide are a minority of the population then shouldn't they be accorded all the protections of a minority group, especially protection from genocide.
Whites are the only minority in this country, there are twice as many Indians in the world as Whites, Twice as many Chinese, almost twice as many africans and middle easterners, they're the majority, we're the true minority.
Oh and I've got something you might like, the Genocide of Afrikaners, right up your alley I'd expect, read it, theres no gruesome pictures of Black on White murders or anything, I'd be interested to hear what you think:
http://censorbugbear-reports.blogspot.com/2010/08/afrikaners-are-starving-pictures.html
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 9:54:50 PM
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Deleted for Ignoring my post?
Must have been a doozy of a reply then.
@ Mohammed,I have so many questions for you, thanks for posting. What's the Islamic position on Race?
Is it acceptable for people to remain as distinct ethno racial groups as long as they accept Allah as their god and Mohammed as his prophet?
Or should all the people's of the world be mixed into one giant, homogenous mass?
Islam encourages free thinking and personal initiative and has Traditional attitudes toward morality. I wonder how the Trotskyite Communist thinking promoted by people on this site, such as open borders, homosexual "rights",Scientific Racism, destruction of culture ,family and Race is viewed by muslims?
Indonesians and Iranians are quite different, they both observe Islam but Iran isn't importing millions of Indonesians, what's the Islamic thinking on global population movement? I know Islam requires hospitality to strangers but what is seen as reasonable in that context?.
I've been told by an Egyptian correspondent of mine that there is great resentment at the numbers of Sudanese and Iraqi "refugees" in Egypt, that they want them gone from their lands, what information do you have which could elaborate on that situation?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 2 September 2010 2:59:03 PM
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@David
I'm against censorship, everyone should have their say, I'm prepared for any argument so it's a shame.
Planet Beyonce is crude and obvious Red Baiting on my part, sort of like when you guys talk about White Trash and tell lies about Bogan Rednecks running around hatecriming everyone, Newtonian Reaction if you like.
My Egyptian contact is indeed a person I met on a web forum. not a Muslim one either, a Pro White one, I mentioned him in another thread on this site, he's fighting, as best he can the "Hitler Was Right" campaign that's being used in his country to poison the minds of young people.
So now you don't want me asking non whites (presumning he's not a convert) about race? Aren't you curious about how he might respond?
Mohammed seems pretty happy to speak about Islam (though he may turn out to be just a drive by poster), just as evangelical Christians like to proselytise.
When you speak about tolerance and diversity David, what exactly do you mean?
I know what I mean.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 2 September 2010 5:35:48 PM
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Ah, "No Platform", C'est La vie,
Until the next outrage then Mon Ami.

"Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries."

"The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them."

"Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to "assimilate," i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites."

"What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?"

"How long would it take anyone to realize I'm not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?"

"And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn't object to this?"

"But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews."

"They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white."

"Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white."
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 2 September 2010 6:30:39 PM
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No comment.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:06:29 PM
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To the moderator. Congratulations on your contributions to internet censorship. I won't be bothering to post here again. Truly pathetic.
Posted by vkcr10vixn, Friday, 3 September 2010 12:51:56 AM
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Wobbles.."Aboriginal=black" "European=white"

It's not rocket science mate.

Remember "walks like... has bill like.. had feathers like...goes quack quack..has webbed feet".... hmmm might just be.. a duck :)

Just because great great granny had a cousin who has a molecule or 2 of indigenous blood..does not make me an aboriginal.

I'm afraid a lot of common sense is lacking here. If Wyatt is more white than black.. and if he has 50% European blood..he is as much European as he is Aboriginal. So...why the fuss ?

Why does he not just call him self "mixed race" like any normal person with mixed race heritage would ?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 3 September 2010 5:59:42 AM
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Indeed, Boaz. Why not 'half-caste', 'quadroon' or 'octoroon'?

Well, der!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 3 September 2010 8:18:16 AM
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If someone says they're Aboriginal, that's what they are.
If someone says they're White then that's what they are.
We don't ask because Race isn't all about genetics, people who use that line of reasoning usually fall flat on their face under any serious scrutiny.
We had a Genocide by racial assimilation in this country so those questions are redundant anyway, most Whites and most Aboriginals are genetically related on some level so any distinction comes down to identity.
These misunderstandings never occur in real life, if you have any doubts within the first 60 seconds of meeting someone, then the person probably isn't what you think they are based on appearances.
I know when I'm talking to a White person just as I know when I'm talking to an Aboriginal, that's what racialism does, it changes the way you think, the way you speak and the way you relate to people.
Furthermore nobody who has mixed ancestry is going to say that they're White, it almost never happens because there's no value in it anymore.
Anyone who claims Whiteness is automatically one of two things, a self hater prostrate before the god of political correctness or a wicked White supremacist, there's no middle ground.
The terms Aussie or Australian don't imply Whiteness they're words used to promote assimilation, "the fair go" and "Mateship", to use them is to deny one's race and take on a civic identity, to be an "Aussie" means you have no race and no history.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 3 September 2010 2:26:32 PM
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JoM

"I know when I'm talking to a White person just as I know when I'm talking to an Aboriginal, that's what racialism does, it changes the way you think, the way you speak and the way you relate to people."

So you treat people according to what race you think they are?
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Friday, 3 September 2010 3:45:44 PM
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That's the whole point, isn't it Johnny? Why else would they want to divide people up into "races"?

Well, der!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 3 September 2010 4:05:33 PM
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CJM

Yeah, probably, JoM must spend a great deal of his precious time figuring out what 'race' someone is, just in order to know how to treat them.

Of course, he could just start by treating all people how he would like to be treated... but that would mean treating him as, whoa, better stop might get deleted if I finish how JoM likes to be treated by others.

But the words "yes, Massa" comes to mind.
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Friday, 3 September 2010 4:16:13 PM
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Good one Johnny.'Yes massa", who are you Tim Brooke Taylor?
Every time I make an observation about you people you prove me right, a university education is for people of poor character because it's designed to produce Anti Racists who understand one thing and one thing only, HATRED.
Read my posts, if I point out the obvious truth about Race you call me a Naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews, or worse.
So slavery is funny now?
Read this, it might clear your head about what slavery actually did to Africa, here it's even from an Islamic site but the same article appears on Jewish, African/American and pro White sites so take your pick:
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/who_brought_slaves_to_america.htm

CJ. How is talking about race disrespectful to other races?
Is talking about women to a woman disrespectful?
Is talking about disability to a disabled person disrespectful?
If people don't want to talk about something they give off clues in their body language or say so outright.
Find one post on this forum where I've been disrespectful to someone who's identified themselves as non White.
I post contemptuous and inflammatory material to upset you, David and Johnny because I don't respect your views because you believe in nonsense that's been devised to meet one end, White Genocide.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 3 September 2010 8:41:41 PM
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"Despite all the education and advocacy and preaching racial tolerance, Australia's multicultural experiment remains a work in progress, relationship by relationship."

Anti racism is not an experiment anymore than advocating against it is preaching.
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 3 September 2010 9:42:42 PM
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Anti Racism is a code word for anti White.
Rainier can you answer the Iron Question?
Are you pro White or Pro White Genocide?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 4 September 2010 12:47:14 AM
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The Practice of Ritual Defamation, by Laird Wilcox 1990.

http://www.lairdwilcox.com/news/defame.html
We've been onto so called "Anti Racists" for a long, long time, the game is up, if decent people refuse to succumb to their bullying they'll have to find something else to do with their time.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 4 September 2010 11:20:27 AM
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JoM

I have noticed that some posters here are deleted for typing in capitals, yet the likes of you are given a voice here. Go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mb2Bxzn5yk
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Saturday, 4 September 2010 11:35:16 AM
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If our aim is to find a way for people of all kinds to share this wide brown land wisely, justly and creatively, then I have to say the approach of the article and the forum in general is futile.

As long as you talk about race, or talk about a person as if she or he belongs to a race, then you perpetuate racism. The truth is that "race" is an illusion and therefore any viewpoint based on the concept of "race" is a self-deception that also seeks to deceive other people.

Anti-racism is just as indefensible: it seeks to repress the fear and aggression arising from the illusion, rather than dispelling the illusory conviction itself. One way or another, no matter how deeply unconscious the racist belief becomes, the evil it generates will break out sometime all the more viciously.

We must concentrate our efforts on working together as human beings to create a healthier, wiser, more loving, and more creative world. Expose the falsity of the race-concept. Clearly taught science and philosophy can do much to this end.

Once "race" is out of the way we can get to work on the next and probably more difficult issues: culture and religion.

For an elaboration on the "race" illusion, you may care to read my article from 2006 on OLO:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4108
Posted by crabsy, Saturday, 4 September 2010 12:11:50 PM
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J of M,

Your question assumes genocide of 'white people' is pending and I see no evidence of that here in Australia. Last time I looked the majority of people elected into power are white.

I think you confuse (perhaps deliberately to suite your own benign racism) the difference between white people and whiteness. Whiteness stands for the relative privilege, profit and power of those occupying the structural social positions of whites in a hierarchically ordered racial society, as such, racist states are states of whiteness. You continue to avoid naming this structural privilege and power preferring to reduce your analysis of racism to interpersonal and interactive domains of observation.

You will of course deny this because it defies your whole proposition and argument about genocide. (You also appear to have very little or no knowledge of world history...why?)

Your overall discourse is not new to me, it’s the usual neo-con banter adopted by white supremists who want to appear to be "reasonable" and "anti racist" in public debate. Yawn!!

*Hello eveyone, I'm back! [And still black!] LOL*
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 4 September 2010 12:31:23 PM
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JR - quite so, but that's the 'debates' on certain topics seem to be managed here. Ours is not to reason why.

I agree crabsy, and I've made the same point about "race" here countless times, but the racists don't want to know. My guess is they have too much invested in the social construct to be able to let it go, so they continue to babble on about "races" as if they actually exist in some biological way.

Welcome back, Rainier. You're correct too of course, but your post will sail way over the heads of our resident racists. Speaking of whom, I expect that our old mate Boazy will chime in before long to share his ignorance about the notion of 'whiteness'.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 4 September 2010 1:04:26 PM
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J of M. Anti racism isn't anti-white. It is anti a very bad idea. Don't imply that all whites share your view.
Posted by ericc, Saturday, 4 September 2010 2:11:12 PM
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Hi Rainier, thanks for replying to my post.
I apologise for any misunderstanding, the question I posed was of course, not relevant to yourself, a Black person has every right to be anti Racist, my issue is with a particular mindset among my fellow Whites.
On the subject of White privilege would you agree that such a system only thrives because of its invisibility?
Look at the responses I receive from other White people on this site? If I say I’m White and Proud out in the open as it were I’m branded a Racist or worse.
You and I know that it’s real but Australians generally can’t see it, they’ve been fed a diet of egalitarianism, mateship and “A fair Go”, when in reality this country was founded on greed, genocide and corruption.
You may not realise it but we are on exactly the same wavelength, I have no loyalty to that system, nor to Australia in its present form, I also want to end White privilege by exposing it but you can’t do that without acknowledging Race.
We can’t drag these people out into the daylight and expose their crimes if we’re working with our hands tied, wouldn’t you agree?
Anti Racism by Whites against Whites is destructive, they want to destroy White people because they serve the vested interests that hide their Race from public view. Honestly the strongest response I’ve ever encountered from a non White person would be called by any reasonable person “constructive criticism”, White anti Racists want me banned from this site or worse because they serve White Privilege and the Status Quo.
I look forward to hearing your further thoughts.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 4 September 2010 3:21:31 PM
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Any person/nation is indeed foolish to judge others by their very own standards. Is Australia any more rasist than other countries ? I don't think so. Rasism is more overt in developing coutries. I have come to this conclusionthrough vairous experiences in many different life situations.
Posted by re_fuse, Saturday, 4 September 2010 5:05:16 PM
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Hi Rainer,
Welcome back – though, with CJ around it never felt like you ever left ( it being hard to tell your posts apart –bib & bub, like!)

And you certainly hit the ground running--with an insightful statement like this:
<<Whiteness stands for the relative privilege, profit and power of those occupying the structural social positions of whites in a hierarchically ordered racial society, as such, racist states are states of whiteness.>>

So, I guess this guy had a looooot of whiteness, ay?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin

And this guy is a whitee too:
http://www.mizozo.com/world/12/2008/21/robert-mugabe-corruption-zimbabwe-style.html

Then there’s this guy, whoooey! with a reputation like this:

"Mengistu assumed the presidency of Ethiopia in a military coup which ousted Haile Selassie in 1974. His links with the Russians and his ruthless nature earned him the tag ‘the red terror’. Using so-called ‘neighbourhood commitees’, Mengistu had as many as 1.5 Million of his own people executed in just four years between 1975 and 1979. This ranks among the top ten genocides of the twentieth century"

He absolutely must have been a whitee!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/581098.stm

Oh! and just in case you haven’t yet joined –you can sign up as a friend –see below:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Idi-Amin/104112679624747
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dr-Robert-Mugabe/113307720297
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mengistu-Haile-Mariam/109389892421353
Posted by Horus, Saturday, 4 September 2010 6:24:58 PM
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G’day Crabbsy, I read your article.
That’s your opinion, I would assume it compliments a non confrontational approach to life in general, however it doesn’t suit mine as it isn’t, as Chairman Mao would have framed it “progressive”.
Racial discrimination can be used in a positive way however Anti Racism is focused on the negation or destruction of race and cannot be the foundation of a just society, Race is Real and it matters, the evidence is right before our eyes.
Just as an example, ignoring race makes reconciliation between Black and White Australians impossible and further entrenches the structural inequalities inherent in the Anglo Elitist system.
Implied equality under the law is used as a smokescreen by the Anglo elite to cover over substantive Racial inequality and negative discrimination thus perpetuating the status quo.
For example how could an Aboriginal person prove that they have been discriminated against on the basis of race while living under the N.T intervention if we had a legal system which denied the existence of race?
As it is they have suspended the Act and instituted "special measures" based on Race, that's no way to govern, it's just plain wrong.
Anti Racism is just another "special measure" to ensure compliance and complicity of Whites in the ongoing genocide of Indigenous Australians, we're left between a rock and a hard place which is just where the Regime wants us.
Support for the Intervention technically makes us "racists" but not supporting it makes us look guilty of turning a blind eye to Indigenous disadvantage, we're paralysed, unable to move in any direction.
Both the Left Wing Anti Racism =Anti White and Right Wing "One Nation" positions serve one end,they are two sides of the same coin, the destruction of Racial identity in the mainstream to maintain the White Privilege of the Anglo Elite.

Here are two articles which put forth a different point of view on Race, I hope you enjoy reading them.
http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/does_race_exist_the_stance_of_scientific_american/

http://www.goodrumj.com/RFaqHTML.html
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 4 September 2010 10:56:01 PM
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<< Race is Real and it matters, the evidence is right before our eyes >>

Utter twaddle. "Race" is a social construct and it only matters to racists.

If you have any actual contrary evidence, please provide it - rather than blathering on interminably with your self-described "contemptuous and inflammatory material", with which you blatantly set out to bait your moral and ethical betters.

With some success, apparently.

However, I'm not biting. Put up or shut up.

Please.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 4 September 2010 11:37:56 PM
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CJ, I have "Put Up", I can do that until the cows come home because there are thousands of examples, If you won't even accept that I have a position then there's no point trying to prove anything to you.
I'd suggest you would be the one who should retire from the field and let others answer for themselves since you have not contributed one constructive post to this discussion.
Other might have views that could further enhance the discussion but bullies such as you, David and Johnny want to stop any conversation that doesn't concur with your own narrow minded approach.
If you think race is a social construct then you are covering for and participating in the genocide of not one but two distinct and identifiable groups in this country, Whites and Aboriginals.
Anti Racism is a shortcut to absolution from Racial responsibility, people like you want to hide your Whiteness to escape responsibility for the past and maintain your position of privilege forever.
You are, in your own terms a "Denier".
As Robbie Thorpe says; "The days of plenty are over"
Anti Racism is part of a parasitic, elitist system of which you are an enthusiastic supporter.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 5 September 2010 6:07:08 AM
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JoM

"Other might have views that could further enhance the discussion but bullies such as you, David and Johnny want to stop any conversation that doesn't concur with your own narrow minded approach."

Since when did disagreeing with a pro-white agitator such as you, constitute bullying? Get a grip.
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Sunday, 5 September 2010 1:01:45 PM
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Johnny,you're not arguing with me just insinuating that I'm:
A. Stupid
B. Insane
C. Paranoid
D. "Racist"
E. Hateful
F. Ignorant
It's called Ritual Defamation and it's the typical behaviour of so called Anti Racist extremists.
Here's that link again:
http://www.lairdwilcox.com/news/defame.html
Why don't you put up an argument, explain to me how Genocide and Anti Racism/Anti Whitism benefit White people?
How does Anti Racism focused on White Genocide and removal of Racial identity benefit non White out groups when the only people who can undo White Elitism are Racially aware White people?
If we don't do something who will?
You have never answered the Iron question.
Are you pro White or pro White Genocide?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 5 September 2010 1:47:48 PM
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I admit that there is merit in critiquing white anti racism discourse for its duplicity, hypocrisy and often blind complicity to its own mostly white privilege. It would be fair to say that both sides of the white political divide, and those who inhabit the centrist positions - abhor racism and now unite in their protests against it. However these protests (mostly since the civil rights movements of the post war era) are usually against blatant acts of racism – racism (for the sake of this discussion) that can be deemed to be 'popular' forms of identifiable racism - thus requiring popular forms of anti racist outrage. One of the explanations I use to explain why reverse racism (for example black racism against whites) is not as substantive as ‘white racism against blacks’ is that blacks cannot rely upon the same institutional racism, bias and support for their pleas of innocence and ‘plausible deniability’ of their racism. The Palm Island death in custody case illustrates this profoundly where the policemen in question had more legal lives than any cat I’ve known. He’s still a practicing ‘white’ policemen.

Having said all of the above, I do not for a moment think that grouping all white anti racists in one basket should be used as a rationale for promoting (though the back door?) white pride any more than I agree with deploying black ‘essentialist’ militancy. Both approaches usually end up with the same result – death and despair. Institutional racism should be the major focus of any reformation and action we all take. Getting white Australians to agree upon just what constitutes institutional racism has been a life long struggle for me and mine. This is because this type of racism also created “white consciousness” and privilege as a “normative condition” of being white and thus is invisible to most and why declarations against ‘popular racism’ often comes across as being superficial. However, raising awareness of this racism through promoting “white pride” is just plain insane. I can’t see the logic in this at all.?
over to you JoM.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 5 September 2010 4:30:14 PM
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CJ Morgan wrote:
"Utter twaddle. "Race" is a social construct and it only matters to racists.

If you have any actual contrary evidence, please provide it - rather than blathering on interminably with your self-described "contemptuous and inflammatory material", with which you blatantly set out to bait your moral and ethical betters."

Hmmm ... We've been there before, haven't we CJ? Since it is you that claims that "race is a social construct" how about you provide the evidence to support this assumption. You desperately tried in this thread:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10541&page=0

My view still hasn't changed. The word "racism" is so overused, it no longer has meaning. The goal posts just keep changing so you cannot have a meaningful discussion anymore. Maybe CJ would like to explain the social construct of race to people in Africa or Asia?
Posted by Bigos, Sunday, 5 September 2010 5:55:40 PM
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Bigos,

I believe that the reason you appear to believe the word "racism" is overused is because the majority of (mostly white people) don't fully understand the social, institutional and cultural complexities that this word tries to explain upon its declaration.

And even when these complexities are explained ad nausea -- people (in often defensive mode) try to question the legitimacy of these explanations - and the cycle of unproductive recrimination starts all over again.

Being (proudly?) ignorant about these complexities is not an excuse or logical explanation for refuting its existence or the need for anti racism. I think CJ is frustratated with both your (apparent) ignorance and non commitment to really trying to understand this complexity.

Here is a simple explanation of what racism is.

• *Power = access to resources and participation in society
• *Prejudice = beliefs, attitudes, and actions based on stereotypes
• *Racism = Prejudice + Power

___________________________________________

• Individual vs. Institutional Racism

Institutional/Structural/Systemic racism is that which, covertly or overtly, resides in the policies, procedures, operations and culture of public or private institutions - reinforcing individual prejudices and being reinforced by them in turn.

___________________________________________

Whereas individual racism is the expression of personal prejudice, institutional racism is the expression of a whole organisation's racist practice and culture.

It should be noted that article under discussion here fails to address any of the above in substantive ways, indeed, appears to avoid it all together in its bid to appear a legitimate and erudite comment about how to tackle racism. It is not.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 5 September 2010 6:26:00 PM
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Hi Rainier. Thanks for replying to my post which was directed at CJ Morgan. On the contrary I don't think there is any complexity to the issue of racism. Once upon a time it was simple psychological concept understood by everyone. The confusion began with the rise of Politically Correct thought where activists would use the word to fulfill their agenda. I think (own opinion) everyone is racist and it's just a natural thinking process that human beings have always had, ergo after 40000 years of homo sapience we have "races".

Your explanation of racism (power+prejudice) is just babble, at least to me. You'll find this in any society where you are the minority. That's just natural. People are ethnocentric, there's nothing wrong with that.
Posted by Bigos, Sunday, 5 September 2010 6:57:37 PM
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Bigos, if you believe that racism is inevitable you I can only deduct that you also believe to some extent that its justified any time it happens or exists.

Its interesting that you should believe it was "once upon a time" a psychological condition because this lends support to the notion that it somehow disappeared because people somehow became non racist.

Please explain?

On this basis you also seem to be confused with understanding racism as a social phenomena and racism as an individual human belief and practice. I'm sure you are not someone who condones racism but this appears to be not supported in any of your posts by how you understand what it is.

Simply denying its complexity exists does not make it magically disappear.

How odd!
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 5 September 2010 7:10:29 PM
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Rainier
"Bigos, if you believe that racism is inevitable you I can only deduct that you also believe to some extent that its justified any time it happens or exists.
Its interesting that you should believe it was "once upon a time" a psychological condition because this lends support to the notion that it somehow disappeared because people somehow became non racist."

Not inevitable. It's human nature, it always existed and it always will. Trying to stamp it out is like telling someone to stop thinking. It's just not possible. It never was a "condition", it was recognised by psychologists as a way of thinking. No one can ever be "non racist". Even CJ Morgan who denies the existence of "races" feels the need to discuss racism. Do you now see what I mean?

"On this basis you also seem to be confused with understanding racism as a social phenomena and racism as an individual human belief and practice. I'm sure you are not someone who condones racism but this appears to be not supported in any of your posts by how you understand what it is. "

I don't confuse anything. I believe everyone is racist and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, it's just part of being human.

"Simply denying its complexity exists does not make it magically disappear."

There is no complexity and it will never "magically disappear".
Posted by Bigos, Sunday, 5 September 2010 7:39:01 PM
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CJ Morgan says:

//Utter twaddle. "Race" is a social construct and it only matters to racists."//

Oh how I love it when CJ says such important things... in fact he is now standing along side the minutemen and the patriotic Americans holding up his sign "Racist mexicans go home"...why? well clearly, because 'race' only matters to 'racists' and the Mexicans are not just mumbling under their breath..they are shouting it from the rooftops....that 'whitey' is not breeding, they just have to wait whitey out..and take over.

Nothing racist about that eh ? :) Well...not to CJ of course.. no.. the REAL 'racism' is those who stand on the ground they settled along with millions of others... and say "Oi... sorry, but you can't come here and talk about taking over in the the name of your 'race' "

Yep..'theyyyyy' are the real racists in the twilight zone CJ inhabits.

JAY of MELBOURNE... be encouraged.. while I don't agree with all you say, I sure as heck agree with your right to say it.

RAINIER.. welcome back old son. *handshake*
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 5 September 2010 7:52:03 PM
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Hi Bigos. How kind of you to drop by and share your racist theories again. Thanks for reminding me of last time we met, and linking to the discussion where I posted the American Anthropological Association's statement on "race".

<< Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species >>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10541#173629

Of course, the fact that 'race' doesn't exist in any scientific sense doesn't stop racists like you from treating others as if it does. Like I said, 'race' only exists in the minds of racists.

I think that's more than enough oxygen for you. Do have a nice life.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 5 September 2010 7:56:14 PM
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CJ Morgan

You conveniently left out the statement from your scientific evidence, which I kindly pointed out to you. Here is a copy/paste of my answer to your "scientific" proof of the non-existence of races.

CJ Morgan
"I've refuted your claim that "races exist" in any scientific sense. "

No you haven't, you quote a bunch of American Anthropologists engaged in group think. This isn't the position of the scientific community. The most important part you left out; Here it is, what's important is in brackets since I cannot bold.

"(The following statement was adopted) by the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association, acting on a draft prepared by a (committee of representative) American anthropologists. (It does not reflect a consensus of all members of the AAA, as individuals vary in their approaches to the study of "race.") (We believe that it represents generally the contemporary thinking and scholarly positions of a majority of anthropologists.)

"Of course, the fact that 'race' doesn't exist in any scientific sense doesn't stop racists like you from treating others as if it does. Like I said, 'race' only exists in the minds of racists.
I think that's more than enough oxygen for you. Do have a nice life."

If it didn't exist we wouldn't be here discussing it, at least I would think. But it does, and we are. I will have a nice life, you too. Cheers.
Posted by Bigos, Sunday, 5 September 2010 8:08:29 PM
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Rainier.I'm not going to try and dislodge you from your position, that would be wrong because Race is Real and it matters, which requires of us all an open mind.
I'll be brief, what doors are open to me, the hated Racist that are closed to Black people?
The Elite are outwardly patronising toward so called "minorities" while holding a dagger behind their backs but when it comes to "racists' it's shoot first ask questions later, Google the names Jeff Hughes, Tyler Cassidy and Randy Weaver.
Don't fall for this horsecrap about White Privilige being available to all White people, we distinguish between Jews and the state of Israel, between Terrorists and Muslims, you need to stop looking at White people as part of the problem and focus on the "Raceless" Elite.
Race is the new class battleground, the parallels and obvious crossovers are impossible to ignore, we need Brains and Muscle, Black and White, Religious and Secular all working side by side in harmony and if harmony isn't possible then we go our separate ways and carve up the continent into some new federation of our own design.
Removal of Whites or anyone else's racial identity is Genocide, Crabbsy outlines that position perfectly when he expresses a desire to be rid of Race then get to work on culture and religion, sounds like a Final Solution Scenario to me.
White Pride is poison to White privilege, White guilt and anti Racism sustain it and allow these Bandits and Oligarchs to keep getting away with their crimes against humanity.

Rainier, what are your thoughts on a Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Australia?
If White Pride is poison to White Privilege the truth will be an Atomic Bomb ;)
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 5 September 2010 9:11:58 PM
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""Rainier, what are your thoughts on a Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Australia?
If White Pride is poison to White Privilege the truth will be an Atomic Bomb ;)""

While I can appreciate the Machiavellian approach you are adopting in terms promoting White Pride, the existing public perception of White Pride is one that is informed by beliefs in fascist White supremacy. Read the literature.

A Truth and Reconciliation Commission (as was instigated in South Africa) would require some preconditions for it to be effective. One of the primary preconditions is for the status of Indigenous people being recognised (in law) as first nations peoples.

Without this precondition it would simply be another program and exercise in trying to fathom and test the virtues of Australia's liberal democracy - which was founded/ created on the basis of acts of illegal dispossession. I live in a benign police state.

Theft and genocide should be an assumed pre-condition of any such commission. Hence the reason why most native title claims are fundamentally useless in terms delivering land and social justice because the impairment of Aboriginal sovereignty is not considered as being a substantive issue in its deliberations, arbitration and conciliation.
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 6 September 2010 1:51:53 PM
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Boazy

This should make you day:

I agree entirely that JoM should be free to display to all what he is truly about.

JoM

For the edification of all, could you comprehensively explain the difference between your belief system and that of a white supremacist.

Regards

JR
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Monday, 6 September 2010 4:20:04 PM
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Rainier.
Again, I'm not here to argue against your viewpoint and I don't expect Indigenous people to trust Whites, that's why I use the term "side by side" instead of "together".
The "white supremacist" angle is old hat, nobody I know believes in it anymore and nobody who does has any business involving themselves in a pro White movement.
We have as our motto "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children", that's our core belief.
Serious White Nationalists support Indigenous sovereignty and reconciliation because it's in our interests to do so, you can believe me or not but we're trying to create a White race that treads lightly on the earth, non interventionist, neutral and supportive.
I'm not a Nativist or a Nationalist, I don't even call myself Australian, I'm White or I'm a Northman, my roots are in the northern Hemisphere, not here.
Indigenous sovereignty puts White occupancy of these lands in it's proper context, we're the largest of many diverse ethnic and racial groups, not the heirs to all that we survey.
I seriously believe we should have exclusively White homelands in Europe and that there should be a long term plan to return as many people as possible from the new worlds of the Diaspora.
Unfortunately we have no countries of our own to return to at this point,so we're stuck with each other for the time being. We're working on short and medium term solutions such as the Northwest Migration in the U.S and PLE's dotted about the Globe but it'll take a radical shift, a revolution even to get other Whites to see the value in what we're proposing.
As I said, it's difficult even to get White people to admit their Whiteness even when we're trying to do something good for them, if they're under duress or subject to ridicule, intolerance and violence from the Anti Racists within our Race it makes it nigh on impossible.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 6 September 2010 4:50:25 PM
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For my money, Jay's views do not warrant sensible, thoughtful or reasoned discussion. They don't warrant that beause (i) we've been through it all before with him and (ii) the views he is touting are so patently absurd and irrational, not to mention overstated, that it would be unfair to ask any reasonable person to give up their time to debate with him.

But I genuinely respect the efforts of CJ, Rainier, Johnny Rotten and Ericc.

What Jay's posts deserves is gentle ridicule. Not outright abuse. But gentle ridicule.

I would have thought that in a town hall type discussion that gentle ridicule would be allowed and that's what I was aiming at with my posts.

[Deleted for arguing moderation decisions on the forum].
Posted by David Jennings, Monday, 6 September 2010 5:05:41 PM
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David you can try to twist my posts out of proportion but you can't argue against them, here for the thirtieth time is The Mantra.

"Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY white country and ONLY into white countries."

"The Netherlands and Belgium are more crowded than Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them."

"Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY white country and ONLY white countries to "assimilate," i.e., intermarry, with all those non-whites."

"What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-blacks were brought into EVERY black country and ONLY into black countries?"

"How long would it take anyone to realize I'm not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?"

"And how long would it take any sane black man to notice this and what kind of psycho black man wouldn't object to this?"

"But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the white race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews."

"They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-white."

"Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white."
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 6 September 2010 7:11:04 PM
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I don't get it either, David.

In fact, I think that it reflects very poorly on OLO as a public forum. However, I think that's about as much as I'm allowed to say ;)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 6 September 2010 7:53:06 PM
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Rainier’s right about one thing, he hasn’t changed his colours – he still has his distinctly pinkish tinge!

And for all his rote learnt clichés , he still hasn’t absorbed the basics.

1) Rainier uses the term “reverse racism” a number of times. Reverse racism carries the implication that real racism is white-on-other. To support such an proposition is , itself, RACIST! Racism is not endemic to any race.And coming from someone who portrays himself as having conducted a “life long struggle’ against racism, it is rather damning.

2) Rainier despite all his rhetoric :
i) “Whiteness stands for the relative privilege, profit and power of those occupying the structural social positions of whites in a hierarchically ordered racial society, as such, racist states are states of whiteness”
ii)“ institutional racism is the expression of a whole organisation's racist practice and culture”

Shows no understanding, nor real commitment to, racial harmony.
The most blatant examples of “institutional racism” are special provisions based on race.

As one non-white recently related to me : to get into university my family had to sacrifice greatly –but just down the hall is someone who because of her race got a much earlier passage ---what damage does such do to our social cohesion?

Rainier massages the sore that outcomes are not proportional –Yes! there is disadvantage, and especially outside main cities and towns—and the more remote you are the poorer the amenities and prospects—for BOTH black and white. But remedy it without reference to race, so it does NOT become a divisive issue. And it doesn’t become a sublimate for someone’s personal failings, or tool to further their ambitions as in “Me and mine” against yours.

3) Rainiers “Me and mine” talk is a gloss. Rainier doesn’t speak for Aborigines. Aborigines are not one monolithic group –never were.
Rainier is no more a spokesperson for Aboriginals than his fawning cheer squad on this thread are spokespersons for whites!
A better alternative, & antidote, can be found in a lot of the writings of Noel Pearson.
Posted by Horus, Monday, 6 September 2010 8:57:14 PM
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Jay of Melbourne,

Let me try and unpack your logic here...

Racist = White

So when I have been racially villified or had acts that are 'racially motivated' by a white person against me - my anti-racist white friend should not protest because this would be an act of being anti-white by my white freind- but not me because I am not white?

So if this is correct (using your logic) how do I proceed with my own protest at being villified or been acted against on the basis on my race being the primary motive of such actions?

According to you I have absolutely not avenue of redress available to me because at some stage a white person (i.e, a judge, a jury, a lawyer, a policemen, a witness) will advocate on my behalf.

In other words you do not believe in any anti-racism action because you believe it threatens the interests of so called "pure" white people.

Followed through to its logical conclusion (despite your denials) you actually support racism against me and mine.
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 6 September 2010 9:05:56 PM
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[Delete for abuse].
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 6 September 2010 9:19:21 PM
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Rainier, you misunderstand me.
Anti Racism is anti White when it's directed at us from within our own race.
If I saw you being racially vilified I'd advocate on your behalf too.
Surely you understand what I mean by now, just look at the responses I recieve from other White posters, they'll call me a Racist because they support White privilege and elite power, they don't want us to have our own countries, they are suicidal in that sense.
Only Whites can commit White genocide, no one else is capable of it.
If I ask you the Indigenous Iron question "Are you pro Aboriginal or pro Aboriginal Genocide?" I can pretty safely presume that you'll answer "Pro Aboriginal"
Notice that none of the White people who are so vehemently opposing me will answer the White Iron question
"Are you pro White or Pro white Genocide?"
Bear in mind that that question is totally inoffensive to other races, it's only for Whites
They'll say something like "Race is a social construct" or try to twist my words around to make me seem as though I'm attacking non Whites.
Race is not a social construct, their attitude and inability to answer the Iron question marks them as different to Aboriginals and different to Whites who can answer the question.
Do you see what I mean now?
White Genocide is Racial suicide, only we do it, it marks us out from other races on at least that level because we can wipe out every living thing on the planet with our technology yet we are wiping ourselves out.
This elite to which I refer is probably a "race within a race" they look white but they want to destroy us.
If you're interested as to where all this comes from it's here:
http://whiterabbitradio.net/
I don't expect you to listen to all 60 hours or so of podcasts but this is part of the new White Nationalism I'm talking about.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 6 September 2010 10:25:53 PM
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Rainier,
Still it was worth the effort it if got under your precious skin! LOL

---“ you are still lost in your own little world of half understood theory”
At least I’m half right –you can’t get any of it right.
(a bit like your stable mate David Jennings who posted eleven lines, but (would have us believe that) only ONE of them was “deleted for making sense“ ROFL

And as for this bit:
--- “lumped together with fictional recollections, narcissistic masturbations about your own self worth and lots of that good old bull-dust you mistakenly think is human thought.”
I think it masterly piece of projection, on your part .
Posted by Horus, Monday, 6 September 2010 10:41:53 PM
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Racists will always get under my skin Horus, its a badge of honor I wear proudly.
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 9:51:53 AM
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JoM

Still waiting for your explanation on how you differ from a white-supremacist.

In answer to your bizarre question "Are you pro White or pro White Genocide?"

I am neither.
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 12:43:13 PM
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Johnny.
Then you're not White by your reckoning nor by mine, so what are you and why do you want to get rid of the White Race?
Actually rather than going down the worn and potholed path you choose I'll give you the task of finding a "White Supremacist" whose views you think align most closely with mine.
As I said I don't know any "White Supremacists", nor do I correspond with any online so in order to answer your question I'd have to have some sort of yardstick against which to measure my views.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 2:06:36 PM
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Why do readers think that racism is some sort of international sport with winners (those with less racism) and loosers (those with most racism? What difference does it make how Australia scores? But if we do want to keep score, what should be the measures? Evidence of systemic racial conflict like civil wars and unrest could be one measure. Evidence of hate crimes and victimisation is another. But there are other ways of measuring racism too. Are people of certain ethinic or racial groups consistently benefiting less from society -- are they less likely to complete high school, less likely to be employed, less likely to enjoy good health and a long life? These differences can only come about by systematically denying opportunities, although the actions do not have to be done to deliberately discriminate. You can certainly ask the general population about their attitudes towards groups not like themselves and that can reveal something about the extent of racism in a society. Another way to measure racism is to ask the victims of racists comments, looks and actions. Surveys that have been done show that Aboriginal Australian regularly experience racism from others. Pick your measure, see if it is a problem in Australia and figure out how you can be part of the solution. Let France take care of their own problems.
Posted by Ann Larson, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 10:12:24 AM
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"(a bit like your stable mate David Jennings who posted eleven lines, but (would have us believe that) only ONE of them was “deleted for making sense“ ROFL"

There's almost no point arguing with people who can't get sarcasm or humour.

Jay's views are so ridiculous that they don't warrant sensible argument. For all we know he's just having a laugh.

At any rate its a real pity that some people ween't taught by their parents to judge people on the basis of their actions and character and NOT on their race. Good parents make all the difference
Posted by David Jennings, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 1:23:38 PM
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Horus, we both know that the real difference between you and me is that I'd go public with whatever I post here and you would not. OLO provides you with the protection of anonymity from which you boldly declare yourself. In the real world I imagine you’d be just a simple man, actually a very simple man.
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 2:41:04 PM
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David.
Would that be high pitched nervous laughter directed at me?
What about you sir? How do you answer the Iron Question?
"Are you Pro White or Pro White genocide?"
Over the course of my few months posting here you've answered the Jewish Iron question, which is fine if you're Jewish.
You've answered the Black Iron question, which is fine if you're Black.
You seem to be able to answer for everyone but yourself.
That Genial, paternal attitude toward dissent doesn't really wash in a serious discussion, it comes off as crude and patronising rather than tolerant or understanding.
For the record I am interested in people's character, White people especially, it's central to what I'm putting forth. A person who wants his own race destroyed or shows disregard for the existence of our people and a future for White children isn't displaying what I'd call "character". Anti Racism directed at Whites by other Whites is a character flaw in my book.
No other race has so many of it's own people working against their own interests.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 2:53:24 PM
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The Iron Question?? What utter nonsense.

I'm Pro Common Sense and Pro Decency as are so many other people.
Posted by David Jennings, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 3:16:57 PM
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Jay of Melbourne: Begs the question: How do you describe anti racist action or declarations against the racist actions of racist white people other than calling it 'anti racism?

If you don't have an answer to this you must (by default) not act when these racist actions occur. Which reveals (for me) your true beliefs.
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 4:02:08 PM
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Rainier.
Do you mean how do I respond to groups like ARA,UAF, ANTIFA etc?
Those types of groups are Gangs and most of the time they just go around bashing rival Gang members and fighting with Skinheads and soccer Hooligans, thankfully there's very few of either persuasion in Australia.
Organised Anti Racists are usually Left Wing extremists,such as Trotskyites or Anarchists so the Anti Racism takes a back seat to the politics, the last Anti Racism rally I attended was more a promotional event for these groups than anything.
If you're suggesting that opposing Anti Racism puts me at odds with Communists you're correct but that's only specific groups, I have a lot of time for Marxist Leninism and Maoism, I can't stand Trotskyites though.
Don't you find it suspicious that David won't answer the Iron Question?
I mean, what has he got to lose by doing so?
He can still oppose genuine cases of Racism if he takes a pro White stand, it just means that he'd have to stand up for white people and a future for White children as well.

You will notice I'm being polite to you and rude to David, Johnny and CJ, if you're looking for some hidden message or hint that I might be a closet "Racist" just winding people up for a laugh you might want to take that into consideration.

Let me ask you something Rainier,do the 14 Words offend you in any way "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children", is that an offensive statement to an Indigenous person?
Furthermore what kind of crazy White person would find that offensive?

We're 10% of the world's population but we don't have one single country to ourselves, we have so many of our people sabotaging us and writing off their own futures coupled with an utterly corrupt Anglo elite that a reaction such as White Nationalism is inevitable and to my mind absolutely necessary.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 5:53:51 PM
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I'll answer all those question once you answer mine. I don't think this is unreasonable as all I'm asking you is what do call your action or advocacy when you confront another white person who is being racist to someone like me? Is this being anti racist or not?
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 6:03:40 PM
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Rainier.
I'd regard it as a matter of common decency that one human being would defend another who was in distress.
Those who victimise others because of their race generally aren't nice people to begin with and they usually have scant regard for their own race. As you'd appreciate, being White and working class I do hear a lot of pretty strong Race based BS but people spouting that sort of tripe would regard me as a Nazi and give me just as hard a hard time, believe me I can't speak my mind around that type of person.
Those guys will bag out Aboriginals and Muslims one minute then be perving on Somali or Asian women and telling lewd stories about their footy trips to Thailand the next.
I'm a White Nationalist, other than ancestry I'd have little in common with violent,small minded, Racist bigots, I'm about a future for White people that centres on exclusively White homelands in Europe with Nationalist political systems and interim arrangements such as the northwest migration in the U.S and the PLE concept.
I think I've pretty well explained that Anti Racism directed at Whites by Whites in order to silence opposition to the political and Economic agendas of a privileged Anglo elite is a real and serious problem in this country.
You and I both know that immigration is all about money, that the Anglo elite would just a soon rule over brown and yellow people as Whites or Aboriginals, as long as the cash keeps coming in.
It isn't right and it either has to stop or we have to isolate ourselves from it.
You could look at it from the point of view of the old class battle lines being re drawn along racial lines, see that's why I'm sympathetic to your point of view, I won't say we're in the same boat because that would be ludicrous but Whites, especially White men are seen as expendable these days.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 7:55:30 PM
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<< I'm about a future for White people that centres on exclusively White homelands in Europe with Nationalist political systems and interim arrangements such as the northwest migration in the U.S and the PLE concept. >>

Jay racist? Well, der!

Does that mean you'll be moving to Europe, Jay? What a great idea!
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 8:15:10 PM
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CJ
I'll move to Europe when there's a free White country there again.
dispossessing people of a homeland is Genocide, which you support 100%.
What do White people GAIN from living with third world migrants?
A better range of dining options?...errr...what else?
Name one benefit that doesn't have the bogus catchphrases tolerance and diversity attached to it...I dare you.
What have Scandanavians GAINED from Third world Immigration apart from an increase in violent crimes and Rape?
What did Finns and Swedes ever do to anyone?
They had no colonies in Africa, they kept no slaves, started no wars.
Why are people going to jail, losing their jobs and being bashed in the street by "Anti Racists" for speaking out about these matters?
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1754
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12/immigrant-rape-wave-in-sweden.html
http://www.johndenugent.com/jdn/henrik-holappa/
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 9:29:31 PM
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Rainier,

<<<Racists will always get under my skin Horus, its a badge of honor I wear proudly>>>
That's no badge of honor Rainier --that’s your ego showing!

<<<Horus, we both know that the real difference between you and me is that I'd go public with whatever I post here and you would not. OLO provides you with the protection of anonymity from which you boldly declare yourself. In the real world I imagine you’d be just a simple man, actually a very simple man>>>.

One of the ,many, differences between you and me Rainier is you pretend to be a anti-racist crusader & plagiarise anti-racist rhetorical, but when we scratch away the gloss we find someone who is not above trading in racism himself --Exhibit1: “reverse racism”

And as for being simple— nay, simplistic, try this Rainierist gem:
“Let me try and unpack your logic here...
Racist = White”

No Rainier, I don’t buy your charade –what ever motives you, I doubt if it’s a genuine commitment to the principle of racial harmony.
Posted by Horus, Wednesday, 8 September 2010 9:54:39 PM
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[Deleted for abuse and poster suspended].
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 9 September 2010 6:49:39 AM
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Horus, how about we arrange to meet in real life?, I would just love to see the look in your face when you discover who i really am :)
Posted by Rainier, Thursday, 9 September 2010 2:39:58 PM
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Au shucks Rainier – it just wouldn’t be right for me to monopolise all that surprise and joy.

How about you reveal yourself here and now so we can share the joy around!
Posted by Horus, Thursday, 9 September 2010 8:21:11 PM
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@ Horus
Rainier understood my post.
"Racist" IS just the attack word used against White people.
"Anti White" is the attack word for those of us who are Pro white.
If someone is Anti Racist they are Anti White.
I don't have a problem with non White people being Anti Racist or even anti White.
I DO have a problem with White people who are Anti Racist and Anti White.
A key part of Genocide is humiliation, defamation and degradation to demoralise the target group, shame, low self esteem and feelings of guilt are essential for the process to work.
People who are ashamed and wracked with guilt will more often engage in self destructive behaviour and kill themselves rather than turn on their tormentors.
White Guilt over real or imagined historical wrongdoing or perceptions of "privilege" is brought about by systematic and deliberate demoralisation techniques and propaganda.
The White Race is destroying itself, non Whites have a minimal impact on this process in and of themselves, any deleterious effects they impart upon Whites are wholly facilitated by Anti Whites from within our own Ranks.
Anti Racist Whites are like psychopaths, they only think of themselves and their own need to overcome these implanted feelings of guilt and shame by committing Racial suicide and dragging as many of us down with them as they can.
Many a suicide note contains the thought "The world will be better off without me".
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 9 September 2010 9:53:50 PM
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[Deleted for abuse and arguing moderation decisions on the forum.]
Posted by David Jennings, Friday, 10 September 2010 11:02:30 AM
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[Deleted for arguing moderation decisions.]
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Friday, 10 September 2010 5:58:17 PM
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Well look at you promoting Stormfront Johnny!
What you're offering me in that post is "respectabilty" if I answer the questions in a politically correct way, it's the same deal as asking me about the Holocaust.
If I give a non PC answer, or one that you personally don't like you'll use it as a talking point in every other rebuttal you make to paint me as a Naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.
Mud sticks, that's how character assassination works.
Seeing as you have no respect for my views and already regard me in an unfavourable light there would be no point in giving opinions on those names because there's nothing in it for me, heads you win tails I lose.
As to "supremacism" that word is simply a defamatory term used by Anti Whites to suppress freedom of speech and pro white views, I personally believe any supremacy that the old White elite had was largely gone by the turn of the 20th century, certainly the Japan/Russia war ended it for good.
White Supremacism as a descriptive term has no currency in White Nationalism, we simply don't use the word or the concept, same goes for Neo Nazi. Hitler enthusiasts, of which there seem to still be a few, do not acknowledge the current German state as legitimate, in fact the Third Reich was never officially dissolved so they scoff at the idea of "New" Nazis.

The rest of your post is nitpicking and a dig at the moderators so I will not respond as it doesn't concern me.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 10 September 2010 8:55:41 PM
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Rainier,

Do you claim ABC Radio as your personal 'User Webpage'? I clicked on it and got this:

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 11 September 2010 2:15:35 AM
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[Deleted. Same reason as the previous.]
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Saturday, 11 September 2010 10:14:17 AM
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Johnny, as I said I'm not buying into the argument over moderation and your reply affirms my original response, you've made up your mind about me already.
One thing I'd like to touch on is the notion that other Races can be Racist, I've been giving that one some thought of late and I don't buy it.
It's too simple and smacks of Elite influence, "Reverse Racism" is another tool to hide Whiteness and avoid Racial responsibility.
See if you accept your Whiteness it opens up a can of worms, if you have to take responsiblity for your Race and attempt to do good instead of bad as a White person you have an interest even an obligation to secure the existence of white people and a future for White children.
That line of "Racism is universal and inevitable" thinking relies on a sort of Malthusian "all things being equal" approach, that is to say all Races thinking alike and having the same motivations for acting they way they do.
When you look at Malthus and the later proponents of Eugenics you begin to understand that their work is so flawed that it scarcely merits discussion in this day and age.
It beggars belief that people still use 18th and 19th century thinking and call it "progressive", all things being equal Whites would have succumbed to a Malthusian catastrophe by about the mid 19th century but they didn't, they prospered and simply took the resources they needed from other groups.
However look at the effect that same population explosion scenario has had on Africans.
Yet again it's played out differently in Asia too, this suggests to me that race is real and it matters, that the different human subspecies will all react differently to given situations.
Whatever motivates non White crimes against other races I'm sure it isn't the same as the reasons ascribed to Whites.
In fact I'm at a loss to explain Racism among Whites other than that it's a reaction to that old Egalitarian 19th century mindset.
Johnny, in your opinion why are White people Racist?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 11 September 2010 11:40:03 AM
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JoM

Not all whites are racist. As many have been trying to point out to you but getting nowhere.

However; White Nationalist = White supremacist. No ifs or buts.

No matter what spin you put on it.

BTW what all this about me promoting Stormfront? You been hitting the Schnapps too often mein freund?
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Saturday, 11 September 2010 12:00:14 PM
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Johnny, That's your opinion, if I say the sky is blue you'll say it's green, if I offer any opinions or facts which contradict Politically Correct views without behaving like a stereotypical "Nazi" you'll accuse me of having a hidden agenda or lying.
See, you are trying to control my responses and make me conform to your pre conceived stereotype of what a "bigot" should be, ie make me say what you want me to say.
Yours is a conditioned response to contradiction, you've been made that way by the media and education system and I haven't, that's why I don't play your game, you're playing basketball and I'm playing cricket, two completely different rule sets.

Every time you post the word Stormfront it creates another link in cyberspace to that site, personally I only post links to sites I want people to see to promote a pro White viewpoint.
If I was promoting Anti White Anti Racism I sure wouldn't be creating links to Stormfront. The shock value might work on people such as yourself with minds preconditioned to fear Pro White views but to others, particularly the post 9/11 young adults who have little inhibition when it comes to web content your pointing out such sites might cause what we term "Blowback" and set them on the path to my way of positive Pro White thinking.

BTW I don't drink alchohol or do drugs,there's a strong temperance/abstinence movement in White Nationalism as well, "Drugged minds can't think, weak bodies can't resist", pretty much every time some group of yobs goes on a "racist" spree there's booze or drugs aplenty, the mosque shooting in Perth being a notable recent example.
My only vice is coffee or as Steve Earle calls it "Christian Crack":)
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 11 September 2010 12:53:24 PM
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JoM

You are creating my posts in your own mind. Interesting and just a bit sad. Where have I promoted Stormfront?

Here's a question you may be able to help me with, given your learnin' an' all, who is Dr Jim Saleam? I heard he lead the then National Action group and distanced himself from neonazis - but then who wouldn't? You'd have to be a complete moron to link to Nazis. And you no moron are you?

I am always eager to learn - this may surprise you given as you are to insulting my posts rather than trying to understand where I am coming from.

I'd also like to know how you define 'white', I am of Spanish descent and have a dark olive complexion, brown hair and eyes, I get mistaken for Italian, sometimes Greek - am I white enough or do I have to be of Anglo-Saxon genealogy?

My ex-wife was German, a very Aryan looking German, does it bother you to know that our daughter is a mix of Spanish and German genes?

See, I am trying to have a dialogue - if all you can do is respond in further insults, then I will have no choice than recommend your clearly racist posts be deleted - as is my right.
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Saturday, 11 September 2010 1:27:03 PM
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Err right Johnny, let's just leave that conversation thread where it is, clearly anything I post will be offensive to you.
I've never met Jim Saleam but I read most of what he posts on the internet and he's not a White Nationalist, he's involved with the Australia First party which is an Australian Nationalist party,altogether different to what I subscribe to.
AF style themselves as a sort of Patriotic Front for Nationalsit leaning Australians and have a strong Nativist thread to their published material, think old Labor mixed with a dash of Henry Lawson's romanticism and a good helping of Mao, if that makes any sense.
I on the other hand contend that the entire Australian apparatus is illegitimate as it's based on a lie, Terra Nullius, if you want me to go into that more I will but sufficed to say I have little in common with Dr Saleam and his associates, they're Nationalists and I'm a separatist.
As for Spanish and Portugese people being White there are tens of thousands of Iberian White Nationalists, as there are in Greece and Italy so obviously some of them do see themselves as White and we welcome them as comrades.
The basic rule of thumb is that if you say you're White we'll believe you, if you say you're not then we'll believe you too.
These conflicts rarely happen in real life as there's no advantage in pretending to be White in the Anti Racist societies we inhabit today and White Nationalists are a hated and persecuted minority group.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 11 September 2010 2:27:44 PM
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JoM,
When your politically correct troll critics resort to abuse because they cannot support their views with facts you know you have won the argument.
Posted by ozzie, Sunday, 12 September 2010 4:15:14 PM
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Ozzie, that's because there are no facts to support their position, it's all dogma and no substance.
According to them Race doesn't exist but still it must be destroyed and "Liberal Democracy" is the end of politics because the world is in it's final state.
Ever read The End Of History, by Francis Fukuyama?
http://www.wesjones.com/eoh.htm
This is what's called wordism, political correctness isn't LIKE a religion it IS a religion.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 12 September 2010 10:33:02 PM
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JoM

I am light brown in winter, dark brown in summer.

Unfortunately you remain the same.
Posted by Johnny Rotten, Monday, 13 September 2010 7:24:11 AM
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JR,

I can think of a few things that vary from light brown to dark brown, and they are not all good.

Sometimes, there is something to be said for consistency.
Posted by ozzie, Monday, 13 September 2010 11:21:55 PM
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Classy. Real classy. What was it that you were saying about abuse?
Posted by jjplug, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 12:55:48 AM
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JJ,
Thanks for the kind words of support.
Posted by ozzie, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 8:52:55 AM
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You're always welcome Ozzie. Us anti-racists have got to stick together and I know how much you love supporting tolerance, compassion and a common humanity. As an Indian migrant and a doctor, you've always made me feel so welcome.
Posted by jjplug, Tuesday, 14 September 2010 9:32:31 AM
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