Rhian

>>> If you are arguing that they should not have tax or legal privilege different to other organisations that do similar things (charities, schools etc) I agree with you. If you’re saying that church leaders have no right to comment on public affairs, or politicians to listen to them, then I don’t <<<

Your comments apply to ALL religious leaders, not just the 'Christian' ones. And I don't have a problem with this, for every George Pell, I enjoy hearing from the Father Bob Maguire's or Father Peter Kennedy's, even Tim Costello.

However, secularism, which gives free speech to all varieties of Christians, also allow people like Sheik Hilali comparing women to trays of meat. An attitude towards women which, ironically, is shared by George Pell.

In conclusion, there is no one god in which we all trust and separation of church and state must remain a priority for all Australians. Given such a 'mixed bag' of values, I'm sure you understand that for many religious and non-religious alike we are alarmed at the level of influence that the Christian church has in Australian politics.

Yes, the USA eh?

I've never been there, and on the one hand it looks exciting, and on the other, I have a sibling that lives there, in Texas, and the tales he tells of mindnumbing ignorance and bigotry are a great shock.

Religion, of course, is not the least bit benign in the USA, and while the Feds may not fund it, like Gillard loves to, to pretend it does not have an unwholesome grip on the nations balls is to be a 'three monkeys' person.

Read the agony of the Irish president O'Bama struggling to garner votes from white evangelicals in the numerous Pew surveys, not that he backs away from his 'great faith' any more than any US president ever has.

Funny how their actions never quite seem to be in-line with their 'lurving Jesus' attachments though, isn't it.

Australia, of course, has no 'separation' at all, as outlined in the High Court case some years ago, and no desire on the part of our citizens to construct one either, although most seem to 'think' it exists, according to the SMH article by Marr in, about Dec 2009.

This hardly seems worth debating really. The grip organised religion has on our world is all encompassing, and quite toxic overall, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with 'soup kitchens', or lovely Tim Costello, or any of the usual fringe elements that are thrown up in defence, the 'good works' nonsense.

part 2....

part... 2

As our world as we like to live it today, disintegrates in a far more explosive manner than Dick Smith portrayed last night with his discussion of population (I did like the suggestion Dick sells some Dick Condoms) then we will, sadly, see the meteoric rise of the usual evils of religion, with CTF type ministries rising on the tide of despair, fear, anger and helplessness.

The Vatican will revert to type, even perhaps consuming the miserable Anglicans, never really sure if they believe in Jesus or not.

Our world is in danger of retreating into a pre Enlightenment age, such as Santamaria so loved, into some form of fascist Christian dictatorship of a modern feudal variety.

In this, maybe Islam has the edge on us, never having quite dragged itself out of that pit?

There will be not a hint of any 'separation' at all, as organised religion takes up from where it was displaced, temporarily, in 1648.

People are stupid, and always have been. Fear is a great motivator.

Those nauseating 'mission statements' of 'in pursuit of excellence', 'the smart state', the 'knowledge nation' and so on, are part of the 'joke' we play on ourselves, to help pretend we are on some economists upward graph-of-life, always improving at 4% a year, and churning out generations that are ever smarter.

If that were so, religion would be gone, our world would not be decimated, greed would not be the single most effective motivator, along with its ally, stupdity (did anyone watch that goose from Elders on the Dick Smith show?) and we would not bother to discuss this.

Our task, as our world implodes, is to shape some form of democratic feudalism to avoid the religious dictatorships that most will favour, in their fear of the unknown, and their grasping at straws... sorry, God.

Amen

Dear TBC,
I agree with you completely, even with the note of millenarianism. The serious problems the world faces have to be assessed and dealt with rationally, but that's not happening. Why not? WHY NOT? Indeed, even supposing we were not confronted with the looming prospect of multiple global crises, surely a hallmark of human economy (in the full sense of the word) in the developed modern world, is its irrationalism? It can be compellingly argued that humans are decidedly NOT rational, nevertheless it is vital to our survival, let alone prosperity, that we DO ACT RATIONALLY COLLECTIVELY. This cannot happen because popular democracy ensures that policy is tailored to the irrational wishes of the majority, which one way or another manages to deceive itself that anything ought to be done if it compromises the lifestyle to which it is accustomed. It's a moot point whether collectives are capable of using the unique human ability (at the level of the individual) to foresee danger and act rationally. It seems the answer is no. Each one of us is capable of reading warning signs and acting rationally to counter it and save ourself. Group-think is another matter entirely. Especially when the "social animal" is beguiled with all manner of organised irrationality, competing for its attention and offering reassurance. There is ignorance and foolhardiness, as well as strength, in numbers. Surely we've all experienced this? It beggers belief that in our sophisticated modern reality huge percentages of our populations are seduced by primitive faiths in angry, benevolent and all-powerful supernatural beings, as well as promises of immortality and damnation (come again?), yet this is the reality! Moreover, this is the kind of lunacy that politicians are obliged to respect and pander to, or are infected with themselves!
Look at Bishop Spong's list of Bible-sanctioned madness that Davidf cites. The cultural mores of an alien race from an alien planet, invading the present. Truth really is stranger than fiction!

TBC

I suggest you seek counsel. You really do appear quite depressed.

Squeers,

The term you used in your post of "organised irrationality" is the best I've heard yet to describe religion.