She had me agreeing until she wrote "Perhaps the ultimate sin for women is to show confidence and to love themselves, so critics feel that outspoken women need to be brought down a peg or two." The self-esteem crowd never seem to think that a woman has enough self confidence. If they cannot have enough self-esteem, how can they ever feel good enough?

Half of the world are socialising women to have an undisguised sky-high opinion of themselves. The rest of us just want to cut these people back to size.

If people are threatened by an argument and cannot find a logical counter argument they often become 'personal'. They can resort to attacking the physical characteristics of their opponent. This is not just something that happens to women who have less than perfect looks. It happens to everyone who has an argument that threatens. It is possible to be personally attacked for many reasons other than looks. Most people would just dismiss this for what it is and stick resolutely to their arguments. They would not be drawn into a slanging match of personal insults but continue to act with integrity by maintaining the accepted rules of logical and reasonable argument.

Personal insults work only when there exists in the mind of the recipient some degree of truth. If a person really thinks that being overweight is a bad thing and somehow lessens their value as a human being then they will be stung by attacks which target their weight. Others can simply brush it off without a thought. Why is their such a difference of reaction to the same insult? People indulge in personal insults simply because in many cases they work and the insulted person crawls back into their shell and takes their threatening ideas with them. You cannot change the fact that some people want to hurt others when they present threatening arguments. No amount of 'education' or legislation or social conditioning is going to change that behaviour. It just pushes it underground and it surfaces somewhere else in another guise.

Women who react to such insults need to work on changing the way they think about themselves. This is something that is within their power to achieve. Muzzling free speech or trying to eliminate all gender based insults is totally beyond anyone's capacity. It is amazing what lengths some people will go to in order to avoid the most obvious solution to a problem simply because it may involve some soul searching and painful but necessary revelations

phanto

That is why self confidence is so vital (to Benk's utter mortification - fearing confident women as he does).

People with a strong sense of self are less likely to be harmed by attacks on appearance. Hell, they may even realise they have the skill and ability to lead nations!

I don't see a cessation of commentary on a woman's appearance any time soon. Some nut-jobs on this forum have even cast aspersions on my appearance not even knowing what I look like - in the belief that attacking women for what they wear and how they look is considered acceptable. And this is the point of the article. Tell a women she is undesirable and that will shut her up.

It is not working, of course, and slowly the bullies will have to resign themselves to the fact that women are aware they are far more than just their appearance and most of us know it.

I have been ridiculed about my supposed appearance by people who have never met me or even seen a photograph of me. They just assumed from what I'd written that I looked a certain way, and lived in a certain suburb. They were wrong on both counts.
People will say anything about you if they find you aggravating enough.

I just wonder if Danielle was among the many women who called John Howard little Johnie or one of the multitude making comment on Tony Abbot's swimmers. Why do I smell hypocrisy?

runner you can go look for yourself, to give you a start http://www.danniellemiller.com.au/

R0bert

Severin

I despise arrogance in both genders. I don't label it as confidence when it is exhibited by a woman.

Dear Danielle, keep up your fantastic work, no-one will ever know how many teenage lives you have saved in the process; you are a most giving beautiful warm hearted, highly intelligent soul who will be greatly rewarded.

Danielle, I agree with all you said.
"There’s no way you can present yourself that won’t attract criticism from the kind of people who think that criticism of a woman’s looks will hurt more than criticism of her ideas … It only makes me more sure that this stuff is worth speaking out about."

These sorts of put-downs for women's physical attributes, or their attire, have been used by both men and other women in all walks of life.
It isn't a feminism thing at all, given that it is often women who put other women down more often than men.

One glaring example is Julia Gillard's wardrobe and red hair, which has been denigrated far more than her political views.

I am not sure how we can stop this sort of behaviour, given that members of both sexes indulge in this nasty gossip.

Keep up with your good work though Danielle, and try to feel sorry for the people who feel the need to run you down for these reasons.
People like this have no self esteem, and need to put others down to feel better about themselves.

*Comments that target a woman for how she looks, rather than her ideas, are designed to do one thing and one thing only: to shut her up.*

Oh nonsense. Every time I see Julia Gillard, I feel I should have
chipped in to a fund to finance a nose job for her.

They are fairly straight forward procedures these days and IMHO
when required, would make alot more sense then the many boob
jobs that so many women insist on, for so many seem to be self
critical about their boobs.

All this has absolutatly nothing to do with her intelligence or
wanting to shut her up.

It's her decision, but in her situation, I would have seriously
considered it

Suzeonline

Your post summarises my feelings on the topic very well. What I fear, is that instead of our society becoming less fixated on appearance the same impossible standards will be applied to young boys as well. The media industry is rapacious. We are only too well aware of the psychological harm caused by teasing or bullying on a young person's appearance, the resultant drop in confidence and possibility leading to eating disorders or even inappropriate plastic surgery. For example, teen girls having breast implants - they haven't even finished growing!

Having been a very thin teenager, I know what it is like to be teased for my appearance and, interestingly, most of the teasing was from girls, I always got along well with boys (which could explain some of the hostility from girls) - but then while I was very thin I wasn't exactly plain - although some males would deride for my small breasts. This will surprise the likes of Yabby, but I wish my breasts were still so small, large breasts are a physical impediment.

Benk

I never mentioned arrogance - you have brought that characteristic into the discussion. There is a world of difference between confidence and arrogance.

Yabby

What would your 'sage' advice be for Tony Abbott's ears? Personally, neither Gillard nor Abbott requires plastic enhancement; it is their policies and integrity that concern most people. Based on your criteria, the majority of politicians (and the majority are male) require a 'nip & tuck'.

Severin,

Benk's comment echoed my reaction to your initial post.

Yabby: << Every time I see Julia Gillard, I feel I should have
chipped in to a fund to finance a nose job for her. >>

As Severin suggests, I wonder why you've never had the same feelings about Tony Abbott's ears?

Benk, you seem to have a deeply ingrained problem with attractive people, especially women. Do you consider yourself ugly, perchance?

>> Severin,

Benk's comment echoed my reaction to your initial post.
Posted by hugoagogo, Thursday, 8 July 2010 8:38:32 AM <<

That both you and Benk confuse confidence with arrogance? That's a shame.

How are you on 'assertive' and 'aggressive'?

Or 'feisty' and 'belligerent'?

I have no idea what you were reading into my first post. I was simply expressing that part of dealing with bullying or stereotyping requires good self esteem. For that we need a system of support around our young people, that they may see themselves as worthy and not feel the inadequacy that impossible ideals can invoke.

If people ever stopped judging other people by their appearance, whole industries would disappear - fashion, magazines, pop music, advertising, hair products etc etc. I think the world would be a far better place if we all become adults and give not a stuff about what people look like or what they wear. But what would all those shallow people who currently earn their living out of other people's appearances do for a crust ?

The left threw just about every personalised insult at Margaret Thatcher (and her husband) but she won the argument. There does seem to be a similar streak of toughness in our Julia - we'll find that out soon enough. If she performs well as PM, people with an IQ above pond life will forgive her any wardrobe indiscretion.

Mind you, I do think people would have cut Kevin a bit more slack if he hadn't looked so nerdy.........

People we are setting ourselves up for some very nasty unintended consequences here.
The more people focus on politicians looks the less likely we are to get diverse and capable representatives. Anyone who is not a fashion model or glamorous will be hounded out leaving only the airheads and bimbos. It is already happening with the nodders that sit behind the PM in question time.
The results of politics becoming populated only by the "beautiful" people would be too horrendous to consider.

CJ, I have indeed wondered if an ear job is easily possible!

It's just that I know that in Europe they were commonly doing nose
jobs some thirty years ago.

Tony could leave a few more hair around his ears, thats a bit
harder for noses.

the sisterhood seem so blind to their own hypocrisy.

Severin,

I'm telling you about my emotional response to your post. I daresay it was brought on by your tone.

When you got snakey with Benk I thought it best to let you know that others read you as Benk did.

Do what you will with that. May I suggest a moment's introspection.

And give credit where it's due, I managed not to hypothesise (out loud) about your appearance.

Dannielle,

You are so beautiful, so gorgeous, your skin, your figure, your perfect boobs and all, that I just adore you forever and ever, prostrate myself at thy feet and accept without questioning all your ideas and presentations - past, present and future, as the absolute truth.

Severin

"There is a world of difference between confidence and arrogance."

So you've never judged someone as arrogant when other people have judged them as confident?

CJ

I have issues with the self esteem movement. They set people up to fail, discourage self improvement and perpetuate over prorective attitudes towards women. I consider my looks average. Its important to have a self concept that is positive, but realistic.

"Its important to have a self concept that is positive, but realistic."

Yet it is best to not have a self concept at all. We are neither positive nor negative, we just are, so simple and evident. Esteem or contempt can affect a concept, but neither can affect the reality of what we are, so why reduce ourselves into concepts in the first place?

Yabby would you have said the same about all the male PMs over the past?

Few women I know, whether it be in the workplace or socially, ever find the time, or have been bothered, to pass negative comments about physical attributes regarding males PMs, males in general or the spotlight.

I love different features in a person's face and body; whether it be protruding teeth, a crooked nose, pointy long nose, DIMPLES and FRECKLES Yabby. The more genetic or unusual features accompanying a person's wonderful personality; the more attracted I am to that person in getting to know them.

Some individuals expressing degradation of another's physical appearance are generally unhappy with their own attributes, ie their own nose; conscious of their own nose or a family relative's nose, for instance their mother's nose. This type of degradation may come from a childhood experience or experiences. Work is best carried out in that area to make that person feel more secure about their own nose.

For instance, take ownership of your nose and stare at it in the mirror daily, saying and believing "I love my beautiful and unique nose that I was blessed to smell and use" x 10 times per day Yabby. Within weeks I guarantee you will LOVE your beautiful nose and that of the PM's!!

After all, some people do not have a nose, particularly in third world countries, born without one, or disfigured, and/or many people around the world unable to use this wonderful sense God gave them.

Benk & hugoagogo

You are incapable of intelligent discussion and now are simply trolling.

'nuff said.

*Few women I know, whether it be in the workplace or socially, ever find the time, or have been bothered, to pass negative comments about physical attributes regarding males PMs, males in general or the spotlight.*

Many women are commonly far too busy bitching about each others looks,
the biggest critics of women are other women.

*For instance, take ownership of your nose and stare at it in the mirror daily,*

Lol Unique, don't ever try to make a living in psychology, for
you would starve.

Australian women spend over 300 million$ a year on Botox, trying
to get rid of every wrinkle. Whilst I think that this kind of
cosmestic surgery is bordering on the ridiculous, I do think that
if people are born with a hair lip, a huge nose or other features
which commonly make them very self concious and are easily fixed,
then it makes sense to get them done.

The cartoonists love Julia's nose and I'd be surprised if she was
never self concious of it. But it is really up to her. It would
also act as a distraction to what she is saying, which is a shame,
because I do indeed think that she is a smart cookie.

As female sexual power is consistently linked to appearance in our current culture, it is no surprise that women are absolute hypocrites in the politics of appearance.

Many women seem unable to resist the opportunity to show a sexual aspect to themselves at work for the perceived social benefits.
Loose tousled hair, tight skirt, high heels and a glimpse of bra is a standard in work offices around the country.
I find it a peculiar custom.

In many ways, because of the way female sexuality is currently constructed in this country, the sexual is political.
Our society would get over 'the appearance factor', allowing women to be - shock, horror - flesh and blood people, if women would only get over it themselves.

Toning down the sexual presentation and physical grooming could be the best way of allowing ideas, not personalities, to come to the fore.
But that would mean forfeiting a titillating 'edge', wouldn't it, girls?