Dear Oliver,

The Herodians really were Jews. Being descended from converts doesn't make anyone less Jewish any more than being descended from converts makes anyone less Christian.

If we go back far enough whatever our religion our ancestors were not of that religion.

so many thoughts/how to respect them all

it is beside the point..if jesus/was...

the fact is many honestly/and with good reason..believe he did...he has an atributable body..of enlightend thought..if not works...simply by the fact..he has an affect..validates him as a cause..[gives him a reality/as he has..a real affect/..within it]

as to marx..he had some interesting ideas..but in the end/they became subverted..if not perverted...we can find good seeds/..even in..'myne camphe'..or even clues/of the vile later realised through hitler...

or trace the thinking/..back to darwinian perversions...that became perverted..by simple con-cepts/such..as..'survival of the fittest'..[BUT WHO TO DECIDE..!]

its all well/and fine..to cast lables..upon people/groups..or think of clever-ways..to get your..REAL/adgenda through..[just like the mad monk/..will get his..through in time..simply by creating discord in his opposing party..and keeping tuckey/barnaby/and that woman/silent..for now

jesus revealed..there is good/AND..bad..in all..[let ye without sion not cast stone/recall..'thou shalt not kill"..

KNOW..that none of us have exclusive/'right'..nor licence..to cast stones...[or kill..

we can opinionate till the party is over..
but only by their works will we know them
they condem themselves...we dont need to judge

talk is cheap...mostly no one will read our words/..if we hold an opposing vieuw...i have complaints against religion...and about god..or science

but hold some of their basic principles/as being worth their errant works/..usually done not directly/by them..but vile claiming to serve...in their name..

but only up to a point

i can see how..the works of marxs/dont match..the words of marx

[and how histler was in the end..only a figure-head...in whose name much evil/..as well some/good was done..

[i refuise to judge..lest i be judged of the same measure]

[yes i hold the zionista in contempt/
but have more jewish friends than fiends]

by and large there are whole classes of people..i could hold generally in contempt..but at the personal-level..we are just people doing the best..with the hand we got dealt

i have great admiration for all who continue to post here
[the wisdom you lot have accumulated is astounding...you certainly have got the..words/..down pat...

but what have you done..by your works?

continues

time to explain specificly..
what you feel ...admirable or despicable...

stop using lables

[i will admit to not knowing the be/all
nor end all of many of your poly-ana wisdoms]
but know of your words

in the end it dont matter..
if religion/science respects their differences...

but that we lord our differences/..as more important,..than our sameness/..for in our differences we respect the gift god sustains us at the individual level

a monotony of simaltude..that has been tricked/..into us/..thinking it the same..that keeps the truelly vile quiet/
till they get into power

we know/..when of a certainty..there is more divergence..within the athiest comunity../or the thiest/comunity...than the groups we bind ourselves into...

who by deciete..think to speak for us.
.by tricking us with their best foot forward
then strike

there is more/to unite than divide us
at a personal level/

but dont judge a party by its head...
nor a science by its legends...
or religion by its silence...

in the end they only dig their own/grave
when the law of karma comes arround

i wish all would see
that we are all born again
indeed have been born/reborn many times

judged and been judged many...times
[except for the sleeper's...who are still sleeping away gods gifts]

but such is freewill...
the freedom to believe as YOU chose
to believe or decieve...remember that we/you did to the least
you do/did to him!

just wait..till the day your words are read back to you
and compared to your works...there is a gnashing of teeth
but in the end we all stand mute...

such is the real power of words
they speak long after our deeds are gone

david f,

I stand corrected on the point you make: "Converted" Idumaeans would be Jews. Thanks for keeping the accurate accurate.

D S M

There is no empirical evidence that humans existed way, way back in the time of the dinosaurs: there is no fossil strata record revealing human remains along with that of giant reptiles nor are there any drawings in caves depicting leviathan lizard-like creatures.

The bible can be interpreted any way one wishes, so you found some text that describes a large creature, our world still has large creatures; whales, elephants, Komodo monitor lizards, or the text could simply be a complete fabrication like much of the bible is - consider the bible also claims virgin births and resurrections from the dead. The bible was written by a variety of men with a variety of causes in mind, it is not and has never been considered scientifically based text. It is a mixture of parables, myths and philosophy.

I have neither the time nor the patience to make up for the lack of education about the natural world that you clearly have. It is up to you, as a presumably mature being, to seek knowledge and understanding of the world around you.

Davidf: <I am prejudiced. I have an aggressive refusal to interrogate my prejudice.

You of course are objective. You of course have well founded opinions.>

Dear davidf,

I don't claim objectivity for myself. I think my opinions are well-founded of course, like all of us, but I don't pretend infallability. For instance my opinion recently, that capitalism drives population growth, seemed logical to me, though I admit it ain't necessarily so. My opinions are based on limited knowledge and prejudice; this seems to me to be the human condition?
Anyway, I apologise for giving offence and will strive to be more circumspect in future.

Dear Banjo,
I'll leave others more knowledgeable than me to tackle your last. Though my edition of Tacitus' "Histories" has nothing to say about Jesus, and nothing positive to say about the Jews (unsurprisingly). Reporting on the year 70 Ad, Tacitus says the Jews are reputed descended from the Ethiopians or the Solymi. It goes on to say that Moses prescribed their "novel" religion, whose tenets hold as profane all the Romans hold sacred, while holding "permissible" what Romans hold immoral. It's altogether a scathing account that illustrates the antiquity of anti-Semitism. According to Tacitus' account the Jews were obsessed with the number 7.
"..other practices of the Jews are sinister and revolting, and have entrenched themselves by their very wickedness. Wretches of the most abandoned kind who had no use for the religion of their fathers took to contributing dues and free-will offerings to swell the Jewish exchequer" etc. Tacitus has of course long been revered for his accounts and one can see, thus, how anti-Semitism has been perennially propagated in the West via classical education.