Dear George,

You wrote: "Very roughly speaking, a theist’s external view of the atheist’s position is that he/she is lacking a sense of the numinous (Rudolf Otto), an atheist’s external view of the theist position is that this sense is a mere hallucination, delusion, superstition etc."

I lack a sense of the numinous, but I do not dismiss your religious feeling as a mere hallucination, delusion, superstition etc.

I know people have spiritual feelings, and it touches something deep in them. It gives a feeling that they are at one with something outside of themselves. So they say, and I believe they are sincere. Yet I don't have those feelings.

Sunday afternoon I was at St. Stephen's Cathedral and heard six young women with beautiful voices singing. I was very moved and cried.
http://www.belladivaopera.com.au/home.cfm is their website. You can hear something approximating their voices, but you have to hear them in person.

A lot of other things besides music, my family and descendents move me deeply. Mathematics, nature, reading the narrative of history, reading poetry etc.

However, I don't have a sense of the numinous or if I have, it is buried very deep.

Science cannot fill many of the gaps in our understanding. However, that does not mean that religion has answers. I accept that our understanding will always be limited. I don't think life has any intrinsic meaning and purpose. Morality just seems to be a way that our particular society has worked out as a reasonable way to deal with each other. It is part of our culture that has evolved.

I used to be very religiously observant when I was young. However, it was with a feeling that it was something I was supposed to do. However, I never had what I think you are talking about.

the list of scientists who studied the spirit world is sparse/most like gregor mendel studied gods creation...but head of the short list stands swedenberg..who communed with angels

while some may regard that as equivelent to being insane...swedenberg is well worth a read[ok its far from a short read..the arcania/celestia..reads more like a book of science...but no doudt is the authoritive text..for those who can read the science fullness...in the maters of spirit

tghose who like to have their shortcuts spelled/out for them...might try heaven and hell,one of his shorter treaties...and lest you doudt his scientific bent...google up his sciences/qualifications

we can speculate...but science needs facts...thing is we can put a living copckroach...into the hardon collider...and the same identical results will be revealed...simply speaking science cannot find that missing/bit...that equates to life

its much like trying to find the active of electicity[by studying dead cables....as swedenberg puts it its much the same/flow...life-force..flows from god...THROUGH...all living...then returnes to god

im unsure why you lot need to doudt...life's/living...has a cause..this must be self evident...must have been self evident..from the death of your first pet...the dead...'LOOK'..much the same...

identical...in fact...so the only change[appart from eventual putrification]...is the animouse...that defines living...science hasnt a clue...

it has learned to do this..or that...but in EVERY CASE...death comes...at the end of our life sentance...surely in this is a sign for the most ignorant

life comes from the living....this is fact...a living sperm...entered a living ovum...and you are the collective fruit....

yes you may/or maynot have passed on the gift...but the fact is...the living pass on the flow/link..to the creator/SUSTAINER of living...your ever loving good/GOD

i was once where you are...i knew science had no reply...science has NEVER made life...from the dust...[only recently has learned the programing..to make the dust]...

just because people need disbelief in love is no excuse for you to not research...or demand..the full facts/...full fausifications..be presented

those who chose to remain ignorant...will be the extreemists...who fear love needlessly...terrorists have stolen from you...the all living...all loving..all logical...but dont get angry...get even/LEARN

L-earn...the love/y-earn for the love
see living as the sure sign love lives

david quote..religion<<what is/its purpose>..this is subjective...[i believe/its there..to give direct-comunication...to deeper thought/insight..into the human-condition...

and concepts/such as faith...even a basis/to looking beyond...what we self-evidentually are...and the underllying/cause/of our/conjoined being

see that..words...or vital....thoughts../acts/works...are recorded[in affect..we can hear...the dead...

AND/the dead..can reach beyond..their seemimg/death

we must/recall..the dark-times...when to get education.needed one to go to the priests..to learn letters...etc...many higher education facilities...were founded/by the church,..,not the state

we see films/of students..learning the letters[as in so called extreemists..studying the koran]...

but not long ago/it was priests..labouriously transcribing texts...with bird feathers..and dead calf skins...and dies

no doudt/chemistry..had its roots...in simple things..such as glue/or the making of ink/paints..etc

beyond doudt/the huge cathedrals/pyromids...etc advanced the art of design/building etc...in short..there isnt much religions...helped founded..or preserved./..from books/book binding..to libaries...from law...to business[the money changers]

lets recall/astronomy...used to make predictions..but mainly to study the creation...determine signs/etc...lest we forget gregor/mendel..who founded the genetic art/of mensdalism...or math

then/there is the..fine wine/culture/rank...and infinate other civilisationary measure's..begat via various religions...speech making..creative writing...just about/any left brain...or right brain thought

<<or why it is there at all>>.because if it wernt...neither you nor i could do more/than grunt..at each other from the adjoining busche

sweden/berg writes..that we/..unique with the angels/can understand the written word/sign...[and that there are 9 others...just like us...except..we alone..can read/commune in words/signs..wrought of free thought]

we are here/fallen from the heavens...each sent here to be free
confirm/..god gives us freewill...each has our life sentance/according as we earned...then we get eternity...to do it together...with all those/..who have passed/over,..before us

one day/i will sit and have tea with darwin..so will you...if you so choose[and dont pee him off]...one day some will feast with plato...hear mosart...build/create...do things you allways wanted to do

all of you...be you lover/of the vile...[there is better and worser than thee...you who love murder...shall murder your other lovers of murder..

you lovers of art/shall paint with rembrant/pablo picaso

TO EACH SHALL BE GIVEN..[more shall be given]
according as to/that you love...for god..is a good of love

jesus has his own room/..in gods realms[each love has its own room]...even vivisectionist have eternity just dicecting[only]..each other..

so be carefulll..of that..you/CHOSE to love

The discussion has flung off tangentially.

Zimmerman says, “The teachings of most mainstream religions are consistent with evolution.”

Dawkins says, “Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.”

Who is right, as they contradict?

We could reconcile them by saying that religion is becoming atheistic. This may be true for some religion professors in the ivory towers of academic circles; those who think religious study is the study of belief, not the study of God. But it isn’t true for mainstream religion.

Actually Dan, they don't contradict at all. Those two statements are compatible.

Unless you think that my atheism logically negates your religion.

Ridiculous, right?

I’d say they contradict. Atheism stands in opposition to religion. To say that evolution is the correct position for mainstream religion is about as bizarre as saying special creation is the correct position for the atheist. One cannot run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds.