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The Forum > Article Comments > Multiculturalism is the way to go > Comments

Multiculturalism is the way to go : Comments

By Mohammed Ali, published 21/5/2010

Multiculturalism: a garden with many different roses is better than a garden with only one type.

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Mohammmed Ali,

I don't doubt the contributions that immigrants from all ethnic groups have made to Ausralia,however muticuluralism and immigration are two completely different issues and they should not be combined.
We can't rely on your faith in human resourcefulness to assume that our country's limitations in arable land and water supply will be overcome, somehow. The USA has been described as 'the best piece of real estate in the world' and has obviously the capacity to support 300 million people,it is a totally inappropriate example of national development. Australia is an old tired desert,so there are legimate reasons to at least reduce our immigration rates.

I don't understand what people mean when they say 'multicultural and ethnic policies',what are they? Liberal democratic states are intrinsically 'multicutural' because of their pluralistic political and social systems and ethos of tolerance.Why do we need specific multicultural policies,to what degree does the state accommodate different cultural practices?
Posted by mac, Friday, 21 May 2010 10:08:18 AM
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Mohammad Ali

I have to agree with mac. Multiculturalism and immigration are two separate issue.

Two facts.

The flow of the Mississippi River is TEN TIMES the COMBINED flow of all Australian rivers combined.

The United States is just south of Canada which contains within its borders over half the WORLD's potable water resources. In coming years Canada will probably make more from selling water to the US than it makes from oil.

Australia, by contrast, is already having to build desal plants to provide its cities.

On the map Australia may appear a large country. In fact it is a small archipelago surrounding a desert sea. If we look only at habitable areas Australia is a country smaller than France with poorer soils and fewer water resources.

While Australia is by no means over-populated cramming ever more people into this relatively SMALL country will cause a deterioration in the quality of life for the majority.

Immigration is BTW a hot issue in the US. Most Americans want the US to dial back on immigration.

And Americans are hotly opposed to illegal immigration as popular support for Arizona's new laws demonstrate.

In the interest of transparency I am an immigrant
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 21 May 2010 1:49:23 PM
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Mohammed Ali,
You say "I tell myself that what ever Australia is today, it is due to the immense contribution of its diverse ethnic communities and some of their prominent members".

What do you not think that basic anglo-australians have had any part to play in our prosperity or our great mineral and agricultural industries? Then what about our system of governance, which is based on the Westminster system and provides the stability we enjoy?

You also say "Today, various Australian institutes acknowledge the value of difference and benefits gained from the cultural diversity of its citizens. This is clearly proved by the number of permanent citizenships granted in 2008-09, which was greater than 200,000".

Many people want to become permanent residents simply because of the benefits provided, such as social security. It does not neccessarily translate into a love for Australia.

Aside from a greater choice of eaterys, what exactly are the benefits we have gained from cultural diversity? A few arts and crafts maybe, but what significant benefits has cultural diversity provided?

I see a lot of costs to us. Like community disharmony between some ethnic groups that persist with long standing hatreds of others. I see inability by some to integrate with others and insist on their old ways. I see alien cultural practices such as oppression of females, FGM, forced marriages, continued caste system and cock fighting. I see introduced crime of a cultural nature, such as home invasions, knifings and machette attacks. Even acid attacks.

Do you think we should happily continue to bear these costs?

It is a good job that multiculturalism has been discontinued in favour of integration but will take a while to eliminate pockets of the die hards. The next step is to stop immigration of those groups that continue to flaunt our laws and social standards. We must aim for community cohesion.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 21 May 2010 2:13:32 PM
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Phew... I managed to get back from Intensive care in time to contribute...

Had to be taken there when I read the title of this thread :)

It came as a bit of a shock because the news just an hour ago was about......

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/police-say-sudanese-a-gang-threat/story-e6frg6nf-1111112783935

Actually this is probably based on the police statement issued today as a result of a leaked document.. pity an admission of widespread ethnic gangs in Melbourne had to be dragged out of them kicking and screaming.

Les Twentyman.. youth worker of over 20 yrs.. probably has more credibility than all the rest. asserts it is widespread and out of control.. Hey chill out there Les.. the Age tells us it's all just 'schoolyard scraps'...nothing to worry about..

//Victorian Community Council on Crime and Violence member Bob Falconer said yesterday some police and academics had failed to acknowledge the existence of street gangs because they did not want to be seen as singling out the ethnic groups involved.

"Invariably there are ethnic-based issues and often visible minorities involved, and political sensitivity of that seems to frighten them off the issue," //

and I think I know why.. those police are in fact participants in OLO :) and the know the 'wrath' which will be poured out on them for their 'racism'

silly me...*Political* sensitivity.. err 'votes'.. Left wing...Labor/Green.. yep..I see it all now.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 21 May 2010 3:21:25 PM
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Hey Muhammad.... you said:

“we and you” or between “us and them”

You also mention a whole lot of people with a recent migrant background.

But my observations of most of them.. is that they see themselves as 'Aussies' and...this might come as a shock...the day YOU start doing that and embracing as much of the culture here you are surrounded with as possible.. there's a strong chance you won't see any 'you' and 'us' but only 'us'

You seem to be wanting to be accepted yet also urging cultural apartied.

Did it work in Sth Africa ?

I fail to 'get' why Apartied was "bad for south africa" but suddenly morphs into 'good for Australia'..

Perhaps you can help me there ?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 21 May 2010 3:28:56 PM
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A nice article. Though the economic and environmental issues are important, it’s good to be reminded that the most important benefit of multiculturalism is that it gives us a richer, more diverse and more enjoyable society and culture and brings to Australia people who make great contributions to our collective wellbeing.

Mac and Steven
Of course multiculturalism and migration are linked – how do you think we came to have the diversity we have? And how on earth do you sustain that diversity without immigration? There are parts of the anti-population movement for whom reducing ethnic diversity is a key aim of reducing migration – check out John Pasquarelli’s contribution to OLO on Wednesday
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=10451

Banjo, we don’t need to denigrate the Anglo-Saxon parts of our culture to celebrate the rest. Your namesake is still cherished.

stevenlmeyer, we may have a habitable area smaller than France with poor soils, but our agriculture is far more efficient. And France has 60+ million people. Perhaps we could squeeze in a few more
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 21 May 2010 3:30:38 PM
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Muticulturalism doesn't have to be such a divisive issue, ultimately I think human beings are human first and representatives of their 'culture' second. It is possible to live together without having to conform to one cultural norm as long as there is a uniform respect for the law of the land one chooses to live.

Multiculturalism and immigration are two different discussions. You can still have immigration without multiculturalism and you can be multicultural without changes to immigration levels or while striving for an optimal population, whatever that might be.

There is nothing wrong with multiculturalism when it works it is only when there are ethnic tensions that it comes under scrutiny - such as Cronulla where there was clearly racist frenzy on all sides. We tend to cherry pick the worst of these tensions and make that the benchmark for multiculturalism while ignoring the shining examples of when MC works well.

Mixing very different cultures can be challenging and it would be foolish to argue there are no issues. I might be wrong but the main tensions tend to focus on the rights and status of women and perceived morality or religious differences. The second being the tensions and historical hatreds that are bought with some to their new homelands. Time generally heals all those wounds, paling into insignficance with each generation.

There were issues with European migration and with Vietnamese boat people. These groups eventually assmiliated well and later generations are no more or less Australian than those with an Anglo heritage.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 21 May 2010 5:21:13 PM
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RHIAN..yep..the ethnic gangs (police words..not mine) are as diverse as you could ever wish for :)
In fact.. the 750 Sudanese who turned up to fight each other (yep..I said 750 .. verified with police) at Keysborough a year or 2 back are a wonderful example of 'diversity'.

Have you been out of the loop for the past few days ? Or ..I guess you don't live in Sydney or Melbourne.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 21 May 2010 5:49:56 PM
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Rhian, perhaps you could contacy my son. You just may have a bit of a problem convincing him of your more enjoyable society, you claim multiculturalism hs given us.

You see, he is still waiting for the operation to recrack his skull. This to fix the damage done [skull carcked in 4 places] when a gang of 4 multicultural, [Lebs in fact] gentleman attacked him as he walked home from the train home from work.

They had jumped out of a car to rob him. Fortunately a couple of other cars stopped, & the multicultural scum fled, before he had been turned into a vegetable.

Of course the apologists tell us this is nothing to do with religion, or race. Well I suggest you tell it to those living near the enclaves of this human filth our multicultural & refugee policies have given us.

Then we need to get rid of these senior academic cops, who are more interseted in & have more knowledge in criminality than criminals, & coppering. Many of us don't give a damn about reaching out to ethnics, we just want to walk home, safely.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 21 May 2010 6:11:37 PM
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Hasbeen
When I was growing up in a very blue collar town, it was the white anglo saxon bikie groups that were feared. You would not want to walk home at night on your own even in the 70s.

I am not excusing the fact that some of today's street gangs are of ethnic origin, but why are the children of these ethnic groups succumbing to the lure of street gangs.

Part of it has to do with identity, bonding and security. If those needs cannot be met in the wider society then gang culture is where they will find it.

I think we should be looking more at how we can embrace all youth and provide opportunities for them to improve their lives before they are pulled into violent crime.

I am not excusing this behaviour in any way, but to fix a problem it is first necessary to understand it.

Mohammed may be able to provide more insight into the factors that influence these young men and what might be done to foster better relations.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 21 May 2010 6:59:32 PM
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Hasbeen

I am very sorry to hear about your son. There is no excuse for what was done to him, and I understand why you feel as you do. I know that my own positive experiences with migrants and refugees will not count for much in your eyes against your own experience and that of your son.

I hope the perpetrators are caught and punished.

I will not try to persuade you to a different point of view, only say that my experiences and observations of living in multicultural Australian have been very different from yours
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 21 May 2010 7:30:50 PM
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Rhian,
You say "Though the economic and environmental issues are important, it’s good to be reminded that the most important benefit of multiculturalism is that it gives us a richer, more diverse and more enjoyable society and culture and brings to Australia people who make great contributions to our collective wellbeing".

Now that is a pretty broad sweeping statement, designed to be warm and fuzzy, but I would like you to be more specific. What exactly are the benefits of MC that gives us 'a richer, more diverse and more enjoyable society'. As I said earlier, apart from more eaterys. Just where are the tangable benefits for Australia and Australians. You say they are 'most important'.

Pelican,
By it very nature multiculturalism divides people into groups, each group pushing their own culture. It is a philosophy which fosters seperate development, a federation of ethnic cultures, not one community. A philosophy which rates original culture ahead of national loyalty.

The biggest lie told to us is 'Unity in Diversity'

The Serbs and the Croats openly fight in the streets, the Lebs get on with no one and now various groups of Sri Lankens are fighting which included an acid attack. Today there is police revelations that gangs of Somarlis or Sudanese are bashing people in Melbourne. There may have been some 'bodgee' gangs around in the 50s and 60s, but never knife fights or the use of machettes.

Many that support MC ignor or do not see the baggage that comes with some cultures.

How do you put a stop to entrenched cultural practices such as forced marriages and FGM, without stopping entry of more of these groups
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 21 May 2010 8:30:40 PM
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No Mate, not multiculturalism but gradual mixed breeding.
Posted by individual, Friday, 21 May 2010 9:29:09 PM
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Rhian,

The question of what level of population is optimum for Australia is a totally different issue from how the various ethnic groups relate to each other and to the state,or whether 'ethnicity' has any relevance at all in a modern society.
Posted by mac, Friday, 21 May 2010 9:58:33 PM
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Rhian,
<<it’s good to be reminded that the most important benefit of multiculturalism is that it gives us a richer, more diverse and more enjoyable society and culture and brings to Australia people who make great contributions to our collective wellbeing.>>

Instead of parroting the usual multicultural melange of meaningless logorrhoea, please explain specifically how Islam has made Australia "a richer...and more enjoyable society and culture and how it brings to Australia people who make great contributions to our collective wellbeing."

I really want to know so that I can weigh it in the balance against the obvious profound disadvantages that manifest themselves daily around the globe.
Posted by Proxy, Friday, 21 May 2010 10:32:30 PM
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BANJO...SAYS The biggest lie told to us is 'Unity in Diversity'

Myyyy my mate.. you are going close to the line there.. in fact.. if your're in Victoria, you are clearly advocating 'discrimination' yep..ur an evil bloke :)

(but wait....I'm sure I've heard lots of Unionists chanting "The WORKERS.. DIVIDED..will NEVER be DEFEATED" heaps of times..no? :)

But don't worry.. my mates at the "Evil Opportunism and Human Reich"
commission will sort your 'evilness' out...now that they have been given a NEW POWER by Greens and Labor.

That new power.. is this

//In cases of serious or systemic discrimination, the stronger law will ensure persistent discrimination can be INVESTIGATED and compliance enforced.//

i.e.. a NEW POWER which enables them now to 'initiate' investigations withOUT a complaint.

You might think "how could this effect me"?

aaah..just looking at the various politically incorrect comments here.. I can see exactly what they will be aiming at.

NOWWW they don't need to wait for someone to complain about 'hate speech' or the such like..they can just drop in as an identity here..take notes.. subpoena Graham Youngs records and hunt your sorry ass down, drag you kicking and screaming into a "tribunal" and send you off for "re-education" as well as fine you to within an inch of your life.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1577982/Bishop-fined-in-gay-discrimination-case.html

Our law...is the same as theirs.

The Evil Opportunism commissars have a differente view from you and I about what 'serious' means.

I invite ALL here.. to join in the 'Marice Strong Green Savour of mankind" thread/discussion to follow along the trail of where all this is coming from. There *is* a connection.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Saturday, 22 May 2010 6:26:42 AM
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Mohammed Ali,

Australia was founded on a multi-ethnic population and has continued to do so. Our multi-ethnic society is founded, as part of that process, upon immigrants adopting Australia and becoming Australians.

Multi-Cultural however, implies that the cultural values of immigrants should not only be maintained but valued and appreciated by Australians. There seems to me to be a perverse schizophrenia in a desire to migrate to Australia to enjoy the benefits of the society we have created through our values, yet wish to maintain those values that caused you to leave your country of origin in the first place.

So many immigrants, supported by Multi-Cultural advocates, not only feed this schizophrenia, they seem to make it worse by highlighting the fact that some immigrants do not like our society as it stands, and wish to make it better suited to “their” culture. Muti-ethnic on the other hand does not suffer these contradictions because it accepts our society the way it is and wishes to be part of it.

Culture, it must be acknowledged, is a significant source of the difference between what is right and wrong. By that I mean something socially, legally or religiously acceptable in a third world country might be totally unacceptable in Australia.

We do not need a multi-culturist society for many diverse cultures to benefit from each other. Diversity in cuisine, art, travel preferences, employment and entertainment are already prominent features of Australian social life, many thanks to immigrants.

I have no problem with refugee intakes, immigration or ethnic diversity. There is plenty of evidence of harmony and value. Where it does seem to be contentious, is where the expectation is established and supported, that cultural values clearly unacceptable to many Australians are not only imported but sold to us on the basis that we are wrong to reject them.

This rejection causes isolation and disenfranchises many immigrant communities. Those at fault then, are those who advocate and support these unsustainable expectations. The evidence of this is in the fact that advocacy focuses on changing everyone, except immigrants.
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 22 May 2010 11:25:18 AM
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spindoc: << Diversity in cuisine, art, travel preferences, employment and entertainment are already prominent features of Australian social life, many thanks to immigrants. >>

Of course, all of those domains are features of culture, rather than ethnicity. Ethnicity is about descent, while culture is about distinctive practices (including ideologies) that are shared by groups of people who more often than not share a common ethnicity.

Multiculturalism is still very much part of Australian society and public policy, but the term itself has been downplayed by governments since Howard's embrace of Hansonism. In my district we are currently celebrating "Italian Week", which uncoincidentally focuses on virtually all those aspects of culture that spindoc nominates. Ethnicity is barely relevant to the celebration.

spindoc also doesn't seem to know what "schizophrenia" means. Perhaps he should look it up somewhere, along with "culture" and "ethnicity".
Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 22 May 2010 12:29:39 PM
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CJ, and after the semantics your point is?

You miss all the key points, trivialize the rest and feel like you’ve made a contribution.
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 22 May 2010 3:51:33 PM
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As long as you remove the weeds!

http://www.mocs.com.au
Posted by MOCS, Saturday, 22 May 2010 11:09:27 PM
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Spindoc - you tell it truthfully and hit the nail on the head.
CJ Morgan - your argument is merely to try twist points and not address the issue.

"Schizophrenia". Literal meaning - "splitting of the mind". Apart from being a serious mental illness the word is commonly used as a term to describe situations wherein sizable contradictions in direction, ethos, actions vs rhetoric etc exist. Usually in adjectival form ...

I come from a European ethnic background. My family ASSIMILATED which is WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU MIGRATE!

Keep your foods, your celebrations, your religious beliefs, your family customs PROVIDED all of these do not contravene Australian Law and are APPROPRIATE in Australian Culture.

As for the assertations of what multi-cultural immigration has done for Australia - I'm damn sure not ONE single Migrant of any ethnicity has EVER come to this fair shore with the thought "What must I do to contribute to the betterment and richness of Australia?" It's about a new place and opportunity to make a better life. "What can Australia do for me?" is the driver.

The great pity is that we've been so tolerant and apathetic about our sovereignty (she'll be right mate!)and now so brow beaten by the Apologists, the left wing Social Engineers of the Keating era and the sacred bleeding heart Policically Correct Set that we can't even speak the TRUTH for fear of being labelled and even charged with DISCRIMINATION.

I am not anti-immigration, neither any particular ethnicity. I am anti-"ethnic enclave" and "ethnic gang". I am anti-"not being able to speak English but live here permanently". I am anti-"clothing that conceals your identity", anti-"isolation from the general community for cultural reasons". I am anti-"illegal immigration". I am anti-"any individual or group that proclaims their religious or cultural belief takes precedence over Australian law"

In other words: Come if you want to be part of Australia. If not, don't bother. We don't need that sort of multi-culturalism. We already have far too much as it is.
Posted by divine_msn, Monday, 24 May 2010 10:21:21 AM
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My semantic points were not trivial. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion when some participants use terminology incorrectly, particularly when the errors are critical to their argument.

Spindoc attempted to make a case that Australia is "multi-ethnic" rather than multicultural, but then proceeded to argue on the basis of culture rather than ethnicity. S/he is not alone in making this internally contradictory argument: many others attempt to pass off their essential xenophobia with much the same sleight of hand. Multiculturalism doesn't assert that the cultural practices (including ideologies and values) of non-Anglo immigrants are superior to those of the wider Australian culture, rather it recognises that Australian culture is comprised of shared cultural practices that have diverse sources. Culture is always a work in progress and therefore constantly changing.

Re schizophrenia - that this technical psychiatric term is widely misused colloquially doesn't make its misuse in a forum such as this any more valid.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 24 May 2010 10:52:05 AM
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The fact is that Australia was built and became great based upon Western judio-Christian values. It had nothing to do with Multiculturalism. People from different places, yes, but with a sole cultural background.

Mohammed, You and so many like you are doing everything you can to end those freedoms you speak of (freedom of speech and freedom from discrimination on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion or culture). You may know the words but Muslims have no idea of the concepts behind them.

Note that Muslims in the West love Multiculturalism, yet are silent about the respecting others where they dominate. Multiculuralism for thee but not me. The problem is not Australia's culture but those who will not accept it, thus they applaud multiculturalism because it provides a cover for their own cultures, to continue to practice those cultures and to demand respect for their values even when they are incompatible with the basic values that have make Australia great.

Nothing is as silly as a Muslim talking about respect among different peoples. When you and your friends start respecting others and practicing multiculturalism in islamic societies, I stop laughing.
Posted by kactuz, Monday, 24 May 2010 3:11:58 PM
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Banjo

I feel these are the benefits of living in a country with a large migrant intake:

The chance to meet and talk with people with different backgrounds, life experiences and perspectives. Multiculture is more interesting than monoculture.

The different perspectives and experiences that people can bring to our common problems and challenges. Multiculture is more diverse and probably therefore more resilient and flexible than monoculture.

The people – e.g. Gustav Nossal, Arvi Parbo, Victor Chang, Charles Teo, George Gregan, Natalie Imbruglia and virtually the entire Australian soccer team.

Their economic contributions – migrants are, on average, higher-skilled and better-educated than the established population. The lower-skilled ones also do the jobs Australians won’t – cleaning offices and looking after the aged are both occupations with a disproportionate number of non-white migrants.

Oh yes – and the food
Posted by Rhian, Monday, 24 May 2010 3:30:15 PM
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Rhian - Not sure where you get your information but would you like to quote some reliable stats to support your statements about the average education/skills levels of the Migrant population vs those of the native born Australian?

Also you really need to be born outside of Australia to be termed a Migrant so I guess that precludes Charles Teo and Natalie Imbruglia who are Australian born. George Gregan hardly counts though his pedigree is very interesting. Born in Africa, Dad being an Aussie of New Zealand heritage and George coming to Australia as a babe in arms.

My eldest son was born in NZ as we were in travel mode at that time and did not return to Australia until he was a year old? Does that make him an Migrant? Not really eh! Ah but he's not a bad cook ...
Posted by divine_msn, Monday, 24 May 2010 11:46:44 PM
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Dear Rhian
do you work for the Dept of Multicultural affairs ? :)

You say

//The chance to meet and talk with people with different backgrounds, life experiences and perspectives. Multiculture is more interesting than monoculture.//

Well..given that I am so rich..I hereby send you a plane ticket to err..Thailand so you can savour the delights of different food and culture.

My only problem with your rather idealistic and one sided version is you are RIGHT....while peace exists.

The more problems in the world between various nations/ethnic groups and religions... the more such conflicts are reflected on our own streets... *because* people keep their own cultural and political identity.

Can you agree with this ?

WAR in Sri Lanka....Tamils and Sinhalise fighting it out on Melbournes streets.

HISTORIC RIVALRY between Serbs and Croats..and they are now competing for 'naming rights' at the Tennis..to make it the "Annual Serb/Croat punchup"

Israel/Palestinians... have you not seen the demonstrations protests?

Ethnic Gangs (leaked police report)

Rise of Middle Eastern Crime. (Priests report and abundant anecdotal evidence.

The worst one of all..will be when the economic *crunch* comes.

When resources are scarce.. do you agree people become 'tribal' ?

Do you have a political vested interest in promoting MC ? (naughty arn't I)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 6:01:18 AM
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Rhian,
Just as i suspected. You cannot offer any tangible or practical evidence of any benefits, other than food, that the ideology of multiculturalism has provided. This policy has been in force now for 40 years and the object of diversity has certainly been met, so how come there are no practical benefits?

So after all this time and millions spent promoting MC, the only thing you can offer is that "multiculture is more interesting than monoculture".

Do you really not see the alien aspects of some cultures and the impact they have on our community and the cost to our country.

People make their contributions to the country, but that does not mean that diversity has to be promoted for the sake of diversity. We should be getting some real and practical advantages to outweigh the costs and inconvienience.

We do not have to halt all immigration, but the sooner the stupid ideology of multiculturalism is dead and buried, the better.

Some alien cultural aspects are so costly to us that we are better off not to import them at all.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 11:50:00 AM
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CJ Morgan, you said “My semantic points were not trivial. It's impossible to have an intelligent discussion when some participants use terminology incorrectly, particularly when the errors are critical to their argument.”

If your obstacle to an “intelligent discussion” is that “some participants” use the wrong terminology, why don’t you cover the issues raised by me and divine_msn and use your choice of words to describe the syndrome?

That way we can hear what you have to say and learn from you.
Posted by spindoc, Tuesday, 25 May 2010 12:31:23 PM
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