OUG,

David f said that the speed of light does not vary in relation to its source; not that the speed of light cannot vary. There are exotic particles that travel at the speed of light as c in the vacuum of space) but slow down when passing through the Earth (or other bodies), while still travelling at the speed of light. Isn't physics great!

Redshift is caused by the expansion of the universe. Said expansion happens faster than the speed light. (N.B. The universe isn't something travelling through itself).

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ABRAHAM'S APPLE TREE

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So, according to Abraham, it was during a terrible fit of jealousy that the large idol smashed all the others in his father's shop.

It just could not stand the sight of all those competitors any longer and struck when the boy was alone, looking after the shop in his father's absence.

The large idol became the sole object of worship. Abrahamic religions were born.

But the large idol was a jealous idol and could bear no rival. It eliminated them all systematically.

Abraham's apple tree was declared out of bounds. Knowledge was stored in its fruit.

Worshipers were subjected to blind faith. The devout were promised to heaven. The impious were condemned to hell.

Ignorance was declared a virtue. Knowledge was considered a sin.

But, thank our lucky stars, without knowing how nor why, some stupid bitch took a bite at the apple.

And apple tarts are now all the go.

Science owes them an eternal debt.

The large idol has adopted a more modest stance. Hailing as the intelligent designer and manufacturer. In a far more down to earth fashion.

And that is the true story of Abraham's apple tree.

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I'm sorry Oliver, I really don't understand why anyone, atheist or theist, would agree with the quote: "God cannot be observed, any more than truth or beauty can be observed."
I find it hard enough to deal with the concept of a cat being simultaneously probably both alive and dead in the absence of an observer, but beauty? To me this just begs the question:
"If Beauty trips over in the forest with no one to observe her, will she still get a bruise?"
Extropian, I disagree that space travel is inefficient; we do it all the time. I think -in the absence of 'warp drive'- what we will need to do is stop thinking of space ships as vehicles, and start thinking of them as permanent dwellings. Darwin will take care of the rest.
The trick is not travelling through space, but getting there. As Heinlein put it, once you're out of the gravity well, you're half way to anywhere.
Was that off topic? Such dwellings will need to be intelligently designed...

a long/time-ago...i did the numbers..of a space-craft...reaching the next sun/solar system...in the end it was a trans-generational....time period....[from memory..close enough/to 100 generations]

meaning there is a lot of selective breeding/evolution...going down..at zero/G...in short...its likely...the hunanoid's leaving...are likely...to physiclly..be different[mentally...as well as physiclly]

see that we would have 2000 years of intelectual stasis...or rather limited stasis...where the space-crafts..occu-punts...could not even realise scales..beyond..their immediate confines

to talk of miles..their comprehention of the concept...would need to encompass..the fact they are moving at a speed..in miles..aproaching the speed of light...yet the biggest..tactile/measure..they can relitivly/relate with is mere nano-miles/meters/feet..inches

well the fact is..we are on a space-craft...presently...

we have a select/elect...who spin/control/manipulate..us as they chose...they funnel..the wealth..of this planetoid..acording to their needs...not the needs of the enjoined..[other living-heir's...other living natures...sharing this realm...suposedly as equals

naturally..this wont work...for long..on a space-craft...even a big one...there will be trans-generational..revolutions..there will be a captain..with powers..of life/death..over his minions..but lets backtrack a little

see if they shone a light..or sent a message..it would take longer and longer to reach the ear-th...each mess-age...would be a unit/a part-icle...that when joined..resemble a wave...but we know are still only a particle...that created a flow..that looks like a wave

its hard...for one as ignorant as my-self..
to write the vissions..that come into my mind...
i know..im not creating them...and neither is my mind

yet other will read my particles...and go with the flow
looking back at them..you see specific..comments...events..that set of this flow..

so..its in trying to explain..the light visions..in my mind...knowing matter/brain..dosnt produce light..

knowing the thoughts im describing..are light...that these events/words/letters..seek to clarify...the inner workings...i know...dont come from within

not reacting to inner questions...
not to inner thoughts...i know its not me...
yet to say it aint...thats too insane..clearly...it must be

but if you could see the gibberish of/flesh...[me]
conveying the images into words..you would see why..i must try..or die..hoping..it bears better fuits..than the cccc=-rap..im po-sting

Hi Grim,

Sorry to confuse. Polanyi is a little harder to grab a few lines from than say Kuhn or Popper; I am certainly no expert at interpreting him. Yet, I do have a feel for the concept of the religious person "indwelling" in a performance(I term I have often used in posts with OLO regular, George).

"God cannot be observed, any more than truth or beauty can be observed." - Michael Polanyi

Polanyi continues:

"... He (God) exists in the sense that He is to be worshipped and obeyed; but not otherwise as a fact - any more than truth, beauty or justice exist as facts".

I think Polanyi is saying that we can "a-critical" about that which is explicit, yet God, beauty and truth can be doubted.

Perhaps other comments by Polanyi on the epistemology of the coherence of commitment have some relevance:

"The fiduciary passions which induce a confidence utterance about the fact are personal, because they submit to the fact as universally valid; but when we reflect on this act non-committally its passion is reduced to subjectivity. At the same time the confidence utterance is reduced to a sentence of unspecified modality, and the facts become merely alleged facts".

Me now :)...

When we speak of absolute zero we address "confident utterance" (Polanyi) regarding an accredited fact. When speak of Zeus as a God or lake being beautiful we make "declaratory sentences" (Polanyi) about alleged facts. These alleged facts are held by the believer and the believer "indwells" (Polanyi) in a framework of alleged facts. Perhaps, someone like Tillich or Augustine would add Faith is reinforced by sustaining a belief in the alleged of the Group’s framework against the reasoned accredited facts of others: "I am a better Christian because I defend Genesis against the facts revealed by cosmology".

-cont.-

If unobserved, beauty, trips in a forest, then the infinite indeterminate states, would not be limited to the superposition of the life and dead state. Resolution regarding the bruise would remain unresolved owing to the absence of any one or several beholders. However, the true difference been a tree making a sound and beauty having a bruise, wrests on a tree being an accredited entity; whereas, beauty is a passion “reduced to subjectivity”.

The fallacy is in the ability to make declative sentences subjective entities so we can say:

"Raven (read God) sent birds to peirce the wall of the daw; one of them pecked a hole through which the eays of the sun shone for the first time..."

"So God creted man in his own image..."

For the believer in the Raven or the other god (Elohim?) are entities around which declartive sentences, even doctrine, can be made. Beleiver can then indwell in that subjective passion/domain.

Relatedly, while Stephen Hawking dropped his passioned claim that nothing (not even light)can escape a black hole on the a-critical remark of a grad-student; however, neither, OUG, runner nor Trav are not going to replace Elohim with Raven, because Chukchi scripture explains that the light of the new sun light turned scattered seal bones into man and women. Likewise, the Chuckchi will "indwell" in their cerimony.