Davidf: <Which mutations are viable and passed on are not haphazard. I don't agree that Enlightenment demeaned humanity>.

Dear Davidf, on the first point I plead economy of expression; evolution is arguably both haphazard and derivative, probably mainly the latter. On the second point; I meant that enlightenment humanism has been repeatedly demeaned in its original anthropocentrism. Of course if you consider enlightenment an ongoing 'narrative', then the process has been enlightening, as you describe it, or at least naturalistically productive and humbling, though the philosophes were much less objective.
<I don't believe in progress. I think the only meaning we can give to life is in our living of it.I think the concept of an ultimate heat death of our universe is valid and makes the idea of progress ultimately meaningless.>
This is more the (potential) prejudice I was alluding to; the first sentence is expressive of positivism--faith in the validity of life (the universe and everything) as 'our living of it'. Why must we discount the possibility (probability?) that our senses (Hume's bundles), confabulated by the (hopelessly cultured) brain, are in error or inadequate? Indeed we know the brain is easily fooled, and the mind persuaded. Crude notions of progress are of course rightfully disredited. The second sentence, forgive me, is syllogistic; 'valid' in the context of the present big bang?
There has been human progress in techne hitherto, though nothing we can ascribe to 'natural causes', whatever that loaded phrase means; and yet human evolution is now synthetic--who knows where it will end, albeit its origins remain organic (natural).
The next sentence is (I think) existential, and we must all partake of the disgrace, though can the criminal never be reformed? Must the past damn us forever?
My point is admittedly metaphysical (in a post-metaphysical age); I doubt we as yet have the full benefit of hindsight, or perception, and so we must postpone judgement.
I can only assert that my scepticism is not born of wishful thinking, quite the opposite. Indeed, I'd be far happier if the world would conform with my intellectualism of it

David f,
“I don't believe in progress.”

Well.

Seems that you don’t believe in “evolution” then.

I wonder why cells don’t give up. I wonder why they have been programmed to keep on chooglin.

Also “Which mutations are viable and passed on are not haphazard.”

Correct.

So why does a cell attempt to control or direct genetic variation?

Seems like some type of plan has been previously programmed into each cell.

vanna et al: << David f,
“I don't believe in progress.”

Well.

Seems that you don’t believe in “evolution” then. >>

Wrong again. Evolution means change over time. It doesn't mean progress. Admittedly, a common misconception.

Have you looked up that TAFE course yet?

From a book that was never written.

God says to Adam, "I have some good news and some bad news. What do you want to hear first?"

Adam says, "Tell me the good news first."

God says, "I'm going to give you a penis and a brain. You'll derive from these great pleasure and great intellect."

Adam replies, "Wonderful! But what's the bad news?"

God says, "I'm only going to give you enough blood supply to work one at a time."

People! This maybe the problem. smile.

Evolution 1 and creation 0. It doesn't matter how many times you watch this football game, the score is always the same.

TTM.

CJ is quite correct to point out that evolution does not necessarily equate with progress; indeed it could be argued quite the opposite.
As Spencer pointed out, evolution shows close parallels to free market economics. Species, like workers, tend to become more and more specialised. This can be quite lucrative for the worker, but at the same time restrictive of employment possibilities, compared to one with more general skills.
A Humming bird is more 'highly evolved' than a magpie, but also more vulnerable to extinction.
This could be an argument for natural punctuated equilibrium, without requiring external catastrophes. Mass extinctions occur at intervals when species become too evolved; or perhaps just one keystone species becomes too successful, changing the environment to the detriment of those most highly evolved species.
Is an inevitable cycle of boom and bust evidence for ID? An economist probably wouldn't think so.

oh-dear/liver<<matter..and energy/interchangeable..(E=MC^2).>>.
they are not the same...energy?..[are you talking/about jules...ie heat-energy..or some/other..form of energy..be precice

we/talk about mass...[presuming atomic-mass..so how many protons/neutrons...wizzing/around..the atom...so wtf is this e=mc2/equation..but spin

MASS=jules=protons/neutrons../moving..real fast...plus..atomic weight/times the speed of light/times the speed of light...and..you get nuthin..but a mantra/spin

why can you..so ignorantly...make claim/..to atoms..in generic terms?

...and so mindlessly/repeat a non-sense/mantra's..[like evolution/and e=mc2]..is there any/ORIGONAL=thinking..between your blood/supply?

squeers..i resent/being called a relig-ion..ie<<intelligent/design..is a desperate attempt..by religion..>>please be specific...these generalities..are getting wearysome

just because your afraid to credit..any id relivant..yet/cant/dont rebut their specific-facts..if you are claiming...CREDIT-able ev=i-dense..for e-volution/of genus..present it

i agree..evolved..isnt advanced/..evolutionTHEORY..hasnt evolved beyond darwins/species..trying to avoid..the genus conundrum..!

human progres/is yet another buzzword..human stasis..seems more likely...your redirective use..of trajectory...appears subject/and suspect...

noting..it starts/with a bang..then at its end..falls rapidly/
back to earth..with a thud/..not equal to..the big/noise...which begun it...but spin..lengthens the trad-jury...opps..tra-jectury

we agree/mutation..is hap-hazard..but we have been demeaned..by science/god-heads..not enlightenment/..

i hold dear]..those/who do/did..real-science,..not just follow the leader/faith-fully..like some science/god-head

yet again/we find agreement..[we are far from knowing..how it ends...
but most surely/..for all..it ends sooner/or/later

but pure-pose...seems blatently patent..on pur-pose..
as their own..redirective use/..of buzzwords reveales

davids/claim..of being..'with nature'/..appears quite absurd...
when was the last time..you slept..in nature..a la natural...huh...?...

the last time/you ate/your food uncooked...are you using your heater/yet?...do you dig/..in the soil..or dig/..into the keys..of your computer...more...

we are far from/nature..in all its meanings...
and even when/..in nature..are the..odd/one out

cyclic-time...lol..there you go..time moves on..just because you think..your still 18...dont mean/..your not older/..or..that/you got any/more wiser

[these redirection's..links to the topic...how?]

how are we any-less''barbaric''than the huns,..,see israel starving the palistinians..or the yanks...dropping naplam..on the nips..[killing 20 million/of them..in the true hellfires...using napalm..[just before nuking them..into submission...]

or the slaughter of 1/million iraqies?..polpot/bosnia..the list is continues..endlessy/continuesly..[and i never mentioned the 25 milion/xtians..murderd by the georgia/bolchovics..let alone those murded..in the womb..[or by adverse reaction to perscribed drugs]

death thy name..is..in the name of humanity..
evolving/on a revolving planet...not via evil-lution it aint

the think..then move's..score keeping/..gets so stale
seems/he/she...has started from scratch....again...lol