Trav,

<<I'm actually willing and able to admit that, scientifically, I'm not capable of assessing the evidence for evolution and intelligent design beyond a very basic level...>>

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, because the evidence for evolution is so over-whelming and abundant; and the evidence for creationism so completely absent, that a basic level of understanding is all that is required to make an informed decision. Anyone not capable of doing so would have to have a thinking disorder that was bordering on mental retardation.

So most of us here are not in that boat...

<<I suspect that many of you are in the same boat...except for the admission part ;-).>>

...and neither are you.

I’ll give you a little hint: Everything in nature supports evolution and nothing contradicts it, while there is not the slightest shred of evidence for creationism.

Not one little bit.

<<I tentatively agree with the idea that A harmonious relationship between theology and evolution can be achieved.>>

Personally, I disagree and that’s one of the main reasons I could no longer remain a Christian.

I simply couldn’t continue to believe in a god that would create everything in a way that made it look as though he didn’t need to exist (and on this level, I can sympathise with creationists) and then punish people for not believing, just as I couldn’t continue to believe in a god that documented his ‘word’ in a way that didn’t appear to need him to exist either.

Notice too that god only helps those that help themselves?

Funny that.

Nope, in a world were god apparently doesn’t need to exist for anything, I just couldn’t keep believing.

Of course, you get those who claim that science and religion answer two different questions - one is the ‘how’ and the other is the ‘why’ - but what these people don’t realise is that religion doesn’t answer, or even help to answer the ‘why’ - it only asserts it.

david f, I think some religious beliefs can be tested--that is why there is a problem of evil for theistic religions. As I noted above, if God makes no difference to the world, he does not exist. If he does make a difference, as well as asking where he does, we can reasonably ask why he does not do it more often--when any decent person with his power and knowledge would do so.

The problems with intelligent design are problems for any view that God is the creator of all things visible and invisible--why did he make so many stuff-ups?

The discussion of evil in theology is extensive, because the problem is real--it threatens to disprove the existence of any god worthy of worship. I don't believe that there are any good answers. That is, the facts are incompatible with the existence of God.

AJ Phillips
“Try naming one test evolution has failed.”

I previously have. Punctuated equilibrium.

Evolution infers that there must be continuous genetic change in a species. Unfortunately, some species have genetically stayed the same for many millions of years (or for many millions of generations), which exposes a major flaw in evolution theory.

Abiogenesis has never proven that organisms can accidentally or spontaneously develop, and has mostly been disbanded as a theory.

Evolution theory also has a little difficulty in explaining why an organism seeks to survive and reproduce anyway (particularly an organism with no CNS or neuron cells).

I’m no creationist or any “ist”, but there is room for intelligent design in the various theories regards the formation of life on this planet. If you had a bag of seeds, and found an area that was suitable for life, but had no plants in it, what would you do?

1/ According to the theory of “evolution”, you would walk away and not plant anything.

2/ According to the theory of “intelligent design”, you would plant the seeds and purposely introduce some life into that area.

So which theory would you follow? The question is not that hypothetical, as it happens all the time with reforestation.

TRAV
“I tentatively agree with the idea that A harmonious relationship between theology and evolution can be achieved.”

I think it is more than tentative. We are now regularly sending up probes and spacecraft, and with a few more technological discoveries, it is quite possible to put some forms of life onto another planet or moon.

If we did teraform another planet or moon, we would now be their God, although we probably wouldn’t interfere too much with what those life forms did.

Some food for thought.

STEZZA/the stoner?...lol..your de-eaming..delusional

i quote the full/extract..but edited for simpleton..comprehention
<<Am Chem Soc. 2008 Jun 11;130(23):7400-6. Epub 2008 May 15.

Positioning lipid membrane domains...in giant vesicles...>>ie god made natural cells..lol<<by micro-organization of aqueous cytoplasm mimic.>>..the minic.turns out to be a blended/strained extract..of liquified lipotens[also god made...lol]
Cans AS,..Andes-Koback M,Keating CD.

<<Department of Chemistry,..The Pennsylvania State University,..University Park,..Pennsylvania 16802,/USA.

Abstract
We report localization>>>not manufacture from scratch...

<<of lipid membrane microdomains>>>not cellular..membranes...lol....

<<to specific.."poles"..of asymmetric giant vesicles..(GVs)..>>ie bits..not a complete membrane...lol

<<in response to local..internal composition.>>.achieved by natural/god process...lol


<<Interior/aqueous microdomains..were generated..in a simple model cytoplasm..composed of a poly(ethyleneglycol)..(PEG)/dextran aqueous..two-phase system(ATPS)..>>>blended lipoproteens..sieved...lol..

<<encapsulated in the vesicles...>>made by god..not man...lol

<<The GV membrane composition used here>>>lol<<..was a modification of a DOPC/DPPC/cholesterol mixture..>>.possably blended pulverised skin/fat cells..[ie ty cells]..<<known to form micrometer-scale liquid..ordered and liquid disordered domains;

we added lipids with PEG 2000 Da-modified headgroups...Osmotically induced budding of the ATPS-containing GVs..led to structures where the PEG-rich and dextran-rich interior aqueous phases..were in contact with different regions of the vesicle membrane.

Liquid ordered..(L o)..membrane domains/..rich in PEG-terminated lipids preferentially coated the PEG-rich aqueous phase vesicle "body",>> .....LOL

while coexisting>>>[ie ALLREADY EGSISTING....lol<<liquid disordered..>>>lol...liquified..<<(L d)..membrane domains...coated the dextran-rich aqueous phase.."bud".

Membrane domain positioning resulted..from interactions between>>>THE GOD SUSTAINED?LIVING CELLULAR CONMSTITUANTS..<<lipid headgroups..and

IE WITHIN<<the PRE+EGSISTANT..interior aqueous polymer solutions,

e.g..PEGylated headgroups with PEG and dextran polymers.>>MADE NATURALLY:BY GOD..<<Heating resulted first in patchy membranes...>>LOL...

<<where L o..and L d domains..no longer showed any preference..for coating the PEG-rich vs dextran-rich interior aqueous volumes,>>>LOL

<<and eventually complete lipid mixing.>>>mixing...not creation

<<Upon cooling..lipid domains..again coated their preferred interior aqueous microvolume.>>>IE GODS CELLS>>LOL>>

<<This work..shows that nonspecific interactions>>LOL,<<between interior aqueous contents>>>LIQUFIED GOD MADE LIPOPROTEENS..lol..<< and the membrane that encapsulates them>>>BIG POINT>>>PLEASE READ THAT BIT AGAIN..

<<can drive local chemical hetero-geneity,>>>lol

please noter con-clusion..<<and offers a primitive experimental model..for membrane and cytoplasmic polarity..in biological cells.>>PLEASE READ LAST LINE AGAIN

dont make up conclusions..that decieve...lol

OZBID...morbid..<<..God makes/no difference..he does not exist.>>>a great statement..but faulse...

[recall;..jesus...[you shall call him...emmanu-EL......god/within...
get it..GOD..WITHIN/life..sustaining...to live..every cell/its life...sustaining/naturally...every living..their being

<<If..he does/make a difference,.asking where he does,>>>think/dear-boy...a cell takes orders/..instructions..via dna...feeding though...many of/the celular=parts...[at least 20/are needed to sustain/one living-cell..its life..

[yet..your body has quadrillions...of individual-cells..each/..doing their thing/naturally..[naturally..god sustains..every/of each..cells actions...

[god is logic..sustaining life...via light/to love/..to life]...serving..even the most vile/their living...from emmanu-el/god-within..

<<we can/reasonably ask..why he does not/do it..more often>>>the actions..in a single-cell..number billions...

the actions..of the whole...ie all living...thats god...
dosnt he do enough/..just/sustaining us..to live?....and live unconditionally!...sustaining/even the...most vile..their lives...too?

<<--when any decent person>>lol<<..with his power/and knowledge..would do so.>>as jesus said...that/ye see me do..you shall do greater...then...who shall lead you..will serve you/..be your servant...just like god/serves each of us..our lives..

<<The problems..with/intelligentdesign..>>>a man made/lable...spin

<<are problems..for/any view..that God/is the creator/and/SUSTAINER..of all things..visible/invisible--why did he..make/so many stuff-ups?>>>judge/not...there is logic...[what/you call..stuff/up...science calls/natural-selection/mutation...S.0.F..

that random/chance..lol..that sees life/survive...thus things..like sickle-cell..provides protection/from maleria etc..and cockroaches..will survive/even the end of time...and species evolve...within their genus...

that im-perfect..ion...underpins life/surviving

did you/ever appriciate..all your parents..did for you..?

thank god/for all he does do/for us all...
if god stopped..all living..would end

<<The discussion/of evil..in theology..is extensive,..because..the problem..LOL<<is real->>please validate...is vile/evil..or just..more life...its the same letters..live/vile/evil/veil...

to get grace...is as simple as giving grace...[as jesus said more shall be given]

<<diss-cuss-ion..threatens/to disprove>>LOL<<..the existence of any god..worthy of worship.>..please validate...lets diss=cuss/some more?

<<I don't believe...>>this much is clear...what you afraid of/love for?...

religions lied...god/is love..live with it...[look at/the most vile/living..god sustains..them/..from within..emmanuel...god within us all..[that ye do/did..to the least...you do/..did/to god...YET..[give/grace..to get..grace]

<<,hard/2/believ..that there are/any good answers...>>LOL<<That is,..the facts/are incompatible with/..the existence of God.>>jesus revealed so many clues...he loved..even the most/vile...

[but key being...even a beast..KNOWS.its masters voice..

KNOW/GOD IS LOVE...all good..comes from god..[love the lover..be-love]
[god/lives..every single moment..live time..all the time...

now..be the love..now/..know

vanna et al: << Evolution infers that there must be continuous genetic change in a species. >>

Absolute rubbish. Our most vociferous critic of all things educational obviously understands neither evolution by natural selection, nor 'punctuated equilibrium' - which is a refinement of the general theory. He also doesn't understand science, if he asserts that experimentation is its only valid method.

And this is the goose who presumes to continually deride the quality of science education in Australia. How would he know good science from bad? He's in a similar position to idiots like runner who rant and rave about science and evolution without displaying any evidence of understanding either.