Not wishing to further abuse other threads with this discussion I'm taking it outside.

I refer to a post supposedly by the CEO of PALE under the account normally operated by Antje - http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#17174

CJ Morgan, I'd not seen that particular post. My understanding of the site rules is that only one person is supposed to operate an account. A clear breach id that is the case, I've wondered at the disjointed nature of posts under that name but assumed a different cause than multiple posters.

David from PALE - perhaps as an organisation you should reconsider allowing staff to use the organisations name to make personal comment on a public discussion forum. The poster seems to feel that when they are criticised for their often offensive behaviour your organisation is being criticised and from your post it would appear that is of some concern to you as well. Q

uite simple, if that's a problem ban them from using the organisations name for personal comment. Others have changed alias's in the past. Your choice but please don't go bitching about harm done to PALE by people responding to the behaviour of your staff when they post under the organisations name. If you chose to allow Antje (or others) to post under your organisations name then the original post and or responses to it may do harm to your valuable caause.

If you are CEO perhaps you should review the topic of Corporate Governance.

R0bert

Hi R0bert,

I'll use this thread as you intended. On the other thread, PALE posted:

"IN second marraiges there ARE others! to consider including the children of that marriage! here you are wanting a LAW to make most times Mothers hand over the kids because! shes found a new husband and life!
Nasty Controlling and spiteful that would be and very unfair on the liitle kids.
Mummies getting re married and leaving daddy
We must punish Mummy.
Then you try to control OLO rules.
oohah! You dont agree with what I said- I`LL show her by getting the whole NFP banned.
Charming morals."

I'll just comment that the continuing practice of whoever it is posting semi-coherent personal comments, under the PALE oraganisational nickname, does nothing to enhance the organisation's public image.

However, that's their problem, I guess. If they choose to post silly, hateful, bigoted and personally abusive comments under the PALE name on a public forum, I see no reason why they shouldn't attract the responses such comments deserve.

I am like others interested in the thread and the thread that started it.
Yes at times it is clear I let both barrels go too,no saint but I hope I try to stay in line.
Pale it would appear often hits the post key without re reading it, I very much once did so too far to often.
Targeted often by pale I take no offense, none at all.
But reserve the right to return service.
I however twice got both barrels from a person who was clearly in these pages only to support another poster ,two different posters supporting two different people.
While we do not use our names surely we should be honest and only use our sign ins ourselves?

Hey Robert.. this might be the place to offer a recent experience of mine... unrelated to Pale or the thread..but good carpark stuff.

There is this woman in the gym I attend..and she is one of those people who has BITTERNESS written in every line on her aging forehead.
I don't know what her issues are, but about 3 years at least..ago..I did what I normally do when someone new comes in.. I introduced myself and asked her first name. She is the only person out of probably 100s who have responded with a gruff 'who the hell are YOU' kind of 'get lost' tone... so..I cut my losses and decided NEVER to speak to her again... unless she spoke to me.. and for 3 yrs its been like that..I just plain ignore her.

Wellllll 2 days ago I was into my usual thing of sitting 'this' way on a long stool doing my tricep curls.. I do each arm, then rest for a minute, then turn the other way, do the other arm and rest for a minute.. .. this time, when I turned around for the next set and the 1 minute rest.. she happened to be doing some exercise on an apparatus nearby.. I didn't say anything as usual, but surely my eyes did gaze her way a few times in the normal 'a moving object gets ur attention' kind of way...

Then.. out of the blue, suddenly I got "I'm WARNING you, keep OUT of my airspace, if I ever see you sitting there watching me like that again I'll report you...I'm SICK of it"!

wow... you could have blown me over with a feather. I did NOT see that coming. Anyway..the more I thought about it the less happy I became..so I reported her myself.... I get along great with everyone there.. male and female alike.. how sad when one person takes an ugly man hating turn for the worst.

I've started this thread not as PALE suggests "opening up your school boy thread rubbising PALE." but to address issues which seem to be clogging up other unrelated threads. Nor am I seeking "to get a NFP organisation banned from OLO", I choose not to use the recommend for deletion button on the post which claimed to be from another person. I don't know if it breached a rule or not but it was not circumventing posting limits so it did not in my view warrent action.

If posts put up under the name of "People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming" are to be believed Antji is allowed to post personal viewpoints under the organisations name and then both Antji and the organisation feel that the work of the organisation is being harmed when Antji's viewpoints or behaviour are commented on unfavourably by other posters.

If the either Antji or the organisation feel that their work is being harmed by interactions the solution is simple. Do what the rest of us do and post under either an alais or a private name. Using the organisations name to attack others or post material unrelated to the mission of the orgainsation and then hiding behind potential harm to the organisation when criticised is ethical cowardice.

Whilst Antji continues to post as "People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming" she chooses to risk harming the organisations reputaion. While the management of the organisation choose to allow the use of that name for the expression of private opinions they choose to risk the organisations name.

Those who challenge or comment on Antji's opinions or behaviour are not generally trying to undermine the animal welfare work of the organisation but to take part in a normal aspect of involvement in an online discussion.

Antji I don't really care if you use the organisations name or some other but I don't feel the need to avoid commenting on your behaviour or views because to do so might hurt your organisations work. It's your choice to use that name, the consequences are yours.

R0bert

Morgan

There was `no bridge` of OLO rules because I typed the message from David.
We note you `failed` to post Roberts comments which PALE responded to-

Which was he wanted a LAW to stop people from moving if they re marry.

To which PALE responded Robert you cant control others lives.

From there Robert breaking ALL forum rules gate crashed Davids thread with a childish post because he did not like this comment.>

"Robert you cant control people lives especially where there is a second marriage involved."

To which he responded they would have to choose and hand the children over if they wished to relocate!

How terrible that another poster did not agree to his new law.

Robert the clasic is you carried on about PALE breaking OLO rules trying to get us banned.

Yet you yourself broke a much bigger rule by gate crashing Davids thread because you couldnt get my attention.

Then you opended this thread which is nasty and shows how far you will go to get your own way and again take control.

I note as you want to be the OLO police but these rules do not apply to you or the thread where this came from with people selling products.

Seems to me its ok for "you" and others to break rules by advertsing products for sale but thats OK.

Its just get PALE because I dared to point out your new law was unworkable and unreasonable and controlling- even spiteful.


You`v made yourself look even more controlling and foolish[ 'if thats possible'] opening up your school boy thread rubbising PALE.

How pathetic.

I have difficulty understanding why you would work overtime to get a NFP organisation banned from OLO.

It must take a certain type of person to sink that low.

belly None of my comments have ever been directed at you.
They ALL have been directed at Labour to highlight their appauling lack of Animal Welfare and leadership to keep jobs in Australia.

Thats is what PALE does- draws attention to Animal Welfare- or the lack of it

Boazy, I've never struck one quite that bad.

Some women get that way because they are spoiled brats who don't deal with lifes realities well, others in part because some men treat them with a level of predatory contempt that I still find hard to believe. We each choose what we do with lifes experience. Some rise above it, others turn it into hate.

It becomes a bit of an eye opened when you speak to women dating in their 40's. There are men out there with just as much hatred of women, it's expressed differently with women being treated as though they were of no value except for one need.

R0bert

Robert
I see your at it again. I stoped posting on that particular thread when you basically told me I should give up my four children because I was re marrying and intended to move.
I recall you from a year or so ago when you opended a similar thread for the same purpose to cause trouble for PALE.
Unlike yourself PALE are paid members.
This must come as a huge shock to you but PALE are also people.
People have different opinions on all sorts of things and Antje is as entiled to post on any threads she wishes without asking your approval.
When PALE joined OLO there was nothing said that PALE could [only post on Animal Welfare issues] and they dont get any extra posts more than you. There is nothing in the rules to indicate that so what are you going on about? I for one left that particular thread because I thought you unreal and controlling. I was insulted by your remark about what I should do with my children and my faimily.
I have seen you make some very direct very rude comments to others but you get your undies in a knot because poor Antje said - Robert you can not control others for the rest of their lives.
Thats it. Thats all she said as part of her comment in response.
Your have a serious control problem which you have demostrated yet again.
Oh and I am a person who happens to be also a member of PALE.
Why dont you write and ask OLO to ban me to along with a few other hundred members?
I can still be a person Robert just like Antje.
Antje was right.
You have NO right to go around controlling where others live or what they do on OLO.
Who do you think you are.
Another thing how dare YOU tell me to give up MY kids if I want to Remarry and relocate and live elsewhere!
Mind your own business trouble maker.

Cripes. Like I said...

TarynW, the custody issue is a different thread but it seems that you are OK with the idea of the childrens father having to give up real involvement in their lives. What's the difference except that you are the one moving, you are the one with a choice in the matter. Hard to see much apart from sexism in that.

Antje is quite welcome to post, I'm also allowed to post. Antje took it upon herself to reprimand another poster for personal comment in a post. I took it upon my self to have some fun with the irony in that. Given Antje's long history of personal abuse and insult in posts that particular piece of hypocracy was just to good to pass up. I listed links to some of Antje's abusive and insulting posts on the thread where she flaunted that particlar piece of hypocracy.

Antje and apparently David (your CEO) are bothered that the organisation may be harmed by comments about Antje's posts. When Antje views or behaviour are commented on unfavourably then Antje hides behind the pretense that people are attacking the organisation rather than her own behaviour.

She is free to keep up that game as long as your organisation is willing to bear the bad image it gives you. The rest of us are free to disagree and to make comment as we see fit within the rules of the site.

Quite simple really. You guys choose if you want your orgainsations reputation to continue to suffer because of Antje's behaviour.

R0bert

PALE and related posters. R0bert is being quite reasonable with his remarks, as he usually appears to be. Letting an organisations name be used to put forward personal viewpoints on anything other than the organisations main objectives is plain silly, and risks your reputation when people take offence. PALE as an organisation should not be posting personal viewpoints on topics such as divorce and chlid custody. By all means let your members join OLO in their own right and post their personal viewpoints - no problems at all with that, even if they link themselves to PALE publicly. But that means that anything they say will be taken as a personal belief rather than the opinion of the organisation. I've had many discussions on OLO with R0bert and not always agreed, but both of us have managed to conduct a civil disagreement without personal insults or name-calling. I might add that he is one of a handful of posters that IS able to conduct himself civilly pretty much all the time (because I'VE certainly let go at a few people!).

Country girl said
PALE as an organisation should not be posting personal view points on topics such as divorce and chlid custody.
PALE REPLIES
At the risk of repeating myself pale does not get anymore posts than you or Robert do.
I never complained about Robert being rude. I complained about his continual interfearing of what pale does or doesnt do.
This is not the first time.
The last time it was complaing about multiple iDs because we had several members of pale posting here.[ just like you have suggested we do all over again.]
So Graham Young arranged for just myself to post under the name of pale.

If you have a complaint about my posting on all the posts take it up with OLO.
There is nowhere that it says I have to ONLY post on Animal Welfare.
Also the others refuse to post on OLO if you really want to know because of Robert bitching.
Now you want people to acknowledge they are pale members so he can complain all over again to OLO
PALE cant win can it?
If the members post under their names he complains about multiple Ids.
If pale posts on other topics the are told they are not entiled to do that either.
Robert has a desire to have pale banned simply because we wouldnt allow him to tell us what to do or not do a long time ago.
Graham young runs OLO not you and not Robert.
If you want to complain about me posting on a divorce thread I suggest you take it up with him.
I have NOT broken my directions from Graham Ever! You can not tell me I cant use the whole of the threads just like you do.

Robert
I note you have not apoligised despite the fact that you now know there was no bridge on OLO rules and in fact it was myself! who posted the comments from the CEO to the other poster.

You have demfamed pale and myself personally.

You alleged there were multiple posters when in fact I pointed out that *I posted the comments.

If you read it again[ which by the way wasn`t even addressed to you!.

It says "a message from CEO David."

Please remove the post that contains the comment that pale have bridged OLO rules. And!

I await your "sincere" apology

Robert you’re unbelievable. I made a comment in general on that other thread and you jump in and rubbish me.
Unlike the author of that thread crying about not enough money to buy an ice cream or turn the heat up on a cold night I went out six weeks after I had my baby and worked darn hard in an abattoir. If I decide to move because that’s where my second husband needs to be near work that is no reason for YOU to tell me to give up my four children. I have always been the main provider and worked two and even three jobs.
Antje doesn’t need your permission to post. Nor is it any business of yours what Antje says to another poster. You’re such an old women and busy body.
Antje and the CEO are not worried about anything she said but they do have a right to complain that you opened this thread on false and misleading information because Antje was the poster- Not the CEO.
She has not broken OLO rules as you posted.
I note your threat to continue to harass Antje and pale.
I agree you owe PALE an apology because that you posted a comment claiming pale acted against OLO rules.
A word of warning Robert. This has now been sent to Wendy by myself tonight who has not been made aware before .You must be aware her family are lawyers and members and you have posted something not only untrue but defaming. She will never stand for staff being harassed as somebody else found out last year.
Your apology if it’s sincere would probably be accepted at this stage but she wont muck around that’s a certain.

I'm beginning to think there must be something illicit in the PALE water cooler.

While I don't always agree with R0bert, I've noticed over time that his posts are always polite, reasonable and conciliatory. Needless to say, in this case I'm in complete agreement with him, and I think that the scurrilous personal attacks and thinly veiled threats directed towards him by those identifying as PALE members are completely out of order.

Their activities on this forum can only bring their apparently worthy organisation into further disrepute. Who would support such an outfit on the basis of the public persona they present here?

Country girl has put into print just what I think.
However pale please take the time to read both those comments and mine here.
It is wrong! to have more than one person using a posters sign in name.
It is gutless to use more than one sign in name.
I have twice been targeted by other in support of yet another poster, one by a person supporting you, was it from the pale desk?
who knows or cares RObert has with good manners put a clear well supported case.
The results force me to ask, is it only men who should display good manners?
And have you noted I post my unions name rarely? I have the deepest pride in it but no right to EVER ENTER INTO DEBATE CLAIMING TO REPRESENT IT.
other than as an individual and most certainly not on every subject from single parenting to world war 3, think about it pale one user one sign in your own if you like, is every word you post the official opinion of pale?

To All OLO posters reading this-
I will draw your attention to my reply to Robert. How many times do I have to tell you there is but one person posting on OLO -which is myself. There has been no bridge of OLO rules at all.
Robert owes PALE an apology for accusing PALE of not following forum rules.
Again- Robert is not the OLO police nor you Belly so stick to playing bully with your union buddies.
What I have noticed Belly as I said before is your utter lack of concern for the fact we have no police to take a report on rape of of a fourteen year old girl.
Sure PALE is about Animal Welfare but that does not mean I can not bring to the attention of people the fact that Labour Government refuse to supply the police to do the job.
Your reply to the fact the person had been told four times by phone they could not go into the station to make a report and was shameful.
Now belly you do not like me raising issues outside of Animal Welfare because it upsets you that I am pointing out to the Public that if labour States cant supply Drs, hospitals and Police we would not want to put them incharge of Australia.
However as I said if you have a complaint complain to OLO because I am just as entiled to post as yourself and Robert .
For the last time- mind your own business- I know thats hard for a union bloke to understand you dont run pale or myself. Perhaps Robert is one of your members and this is Labours move to stop me brining these issues to the attention of the public.
Then again perhaps not because I dont think Kevin Rudd is that unfair.

Clearly... some of us are hurting.. and we have our individual passions and issues.. our encounters with the rough side of life,
and really.. we should use a forum such as this not to tear down, but to build up... (individuals I mean) while we can attack ideas, we should be trying to impart healing to individuals who are clearly hurting.

Heb 10:24 "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds."

Even if we are not Christian, this is good advice. I can almost hear the cogs turning in CJ's mind as he thinks "Boazy.. but you are always attacking such and such".. well.. err..yes.. I am always attacking those things which build up hate instead of love, so.. I believe I am fulfilling this injuction even in doing that. (feel free to disagree)

In the case of Taryns situation.. I simply would not have enough information to even comment. So, the only thing I can say to Taryn.. is search your heart, and if you know your actions come from love, then so be it. Anything which comes from 'revenge' or to worsen someones anguish just for the sake of it will not result in short or long term happiness.

Marriage breakdown is a horrible situation which leads to all manner of complication of life. All who are in this situation deserve our sympathy, compassion and encouragement such that they can get back to a position of balanced viewing of people and events, rather than a reaction to hurtful things.

Most marital breakups lead me to my knees before the Mercy seat.. because I simply cannot see a human solution for some.

PALE... whoever is posting there, you're missing R0Bert's point.

As I stated in this thread:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=953#16726

I have some sympathy for the cause of opposing Live Exports (though not necessarily the opposition to intensive animal industries) and I don't have any problem with the organisation having a presence here.
I would encourage them to write articles for comment.

The point is, a poster has commented under the organisation name, on issues that aren't related to the opposition of live exports.
They have also made unfounded accusations which I found quite offensive, such as here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=859#15157

Which stated I was posting under two names, which is false, and I would call on whoever posted that comment to suggest which other identity they suspect me of posting under, so the other individal can rule it out themselves.
There's also a certain irony of this person accusing another of impropriety in terms of identity and posting.

Then there were the examples of emotional ploys and defensive reactions, such as here - in this instance I objected to the use of emotional ploys and the insinuation was that in doing so, I was a narcissist.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=534#10405

Look - I'm not trying to the get organisation banned from OLO. By all means, continue this style of posting if you wish, and I am quite happy to go on refuting and pointing out dishonest or accusatory methods of debate. I'm a big boy. I can handle it.

My point is - these tactics do the organisation no service. They detract from its credibility, and I would urge those at People Against Live Exports to write articles and adopt a more professional approach, because I wouldn't mind seeing them have some success in their endeavour to limit live exports.

Antje, you seem rather distressed that I could have interpreted "My names is David and I am the CEO of PALE. I dont often get involved with OLO being far too busy." as indicating that the post was not written by yourself (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#17174). That seems to me to be a reasonable assumption. If you can demonstrate where in that post you indicated that it was your work and not that of your CEO then I will be happy to apologise for misreading the post and suggesting that it was Davids work.

Until then I will assume that it was either David's work (regardless of who typed it up) or that you have deliberately attempted to mislead us and pass your own work off as that of the PALE CEO.

Boazy, I agree that we don't know enough about Taryn's situation to comment specifically on it other than that she chose to introduce her situation into the discussion and has not at this point offered any mitigating circumstances. My impression is that she and Antje think I should change my opposition to children being removed from contact with involved fathers on the basis that Taryn wants to do so rather than on any specific justification. There has been no input in the discussion that I recall into the impact that her decision may have on the children or on the father of the children, no claims that the father chooses to only see the kids a couple of times a year. No reported threats to physical safety. Just Taryn wants to move and why should she suffer the consequences of doing so.

R0bert

David
I will repond to you because you were not involved in the last attempt to get pale taken off OLO. Dont you just love the bagging of a group of people doing nothing more than helping animals.
I dont see Robert or any of these people giving up their time and their own funds to help others. Its all about them and their egos. Something about casting stones runs through my head.
David please take a look at Roberts post. Can you believe it. He thinks hes the police lord and master. He quite clearly said on the other thread I should be forced to choose between my kids and my second husband. Not only me everybody. That is why I stopped posting. I have made it clear that I have always been the one to work. I have worked darn hard two or three jobs pluss raised the children while my x sat on his bum and did nothing.
Now I have a second husband who works hard to provide and I moved to give us all a better life.
Read his post on the other thread and again on this one.
He expects me to give the children up to their father because I moved out of the area .
I made it clear to Robert my x could visit but he posted another comment saying the x wife and kids should be the ones made to travel because it was him who had been put out because I moved.
Robert- and others its none of your business what others do and this may sound familar but stop trying to run others lives OLO and organisations
Its not your business.

TarynW - you're missing the point and taking the analysis of arguments personally.
I haven't read the previous threads of your arguments with Robert personally, though I would suggest that if your family situation was brought up in a thread, then you have to accept that other people have a different view to your own.

In this particular thread, I've not seen anyone calling for the banning of anyone else.

I get rather tired of people ignoring central assertions in favour of taking arguments personally, and exaggerating a personal aspect instead.

Before the thread degenerates any further into personal mudslinging, may I put forward and ask posters such as PALE and TarynW to address these straightforward assertions, without either side casting personal aspersions.

1) Nobody has suggested people shouldn't be allowed to post their own points of view.
2) There has been a question raised as to the wisdom of having a number of posters operating under the name of an organisation.
3) The reasoning behind point 2) is that people who disagree with the individual posting, including topics irrelevant to the organisation, will be less inclined to support that organisation.

I am aware that in my previous post I have cast aspersions of sorts, though I have backed up each one with an example and why I disagree with it. If you wish to debate me on this, then I would ask you to address the examples and explain logically how my central assertion (point 3) is false.

From my perspective - I come to OLO to debate topics and work on my skills of critical reasoning.

Fortunately it means I very rarely take things to heart, though I don't hesitate to highlight irrational or insulting statements to illustrate how poor the arguments of these posters are. In my view, many of PALE's arguments fall into this category, and I have explained why.

I see a distinct lack of logical reasoning from many posters here, who instead are resorting to personal diatribes or attacks.
Prove me wrong by addressing the points I've outlined above, without resorting to mudslinging rhetoric.

We have returned to talking about RObert actions in another thread I took part in that thread.
RObert[no ALP plant] did not in my mind say anything out of line.
I could tell you of men now dead and men who will be because they lost contact with children.
Of wives who think children are their property or even a weapon.
Yes and of kids and wife far better of without that father.
I can tell of men who call me behind a lunch shed and cry ,totally breaking down wanting nothing but to see those kids.
Like most who posted there RObert and me too want only a better way, an understanding children are not private property or weapons, is that not the only acceptable answer?
pale I think you must understand this is not conversation, you have time to think, time to cool down and time to ask would you like us insulting you that way?
And one day think about it consider what it is pale wants? why fragment our ideas of what pale is?
mention pale in every related post but is it truly pales ideas you post.
My efforts to tell you that dreadful failure to respond may have been, just may have been a failure by the police on hand not related to numbers has you acting regrettably heated but not reviewing the case.
Some police do not respond to highlight industrial problems can you understand that.
Can I truly tell you what pale means to me? built on the only information I have your posts?
It is a lady possible middle aged who grew up in the bush, has less than enough information on the union movement, bad tempered and often gos of half cocked, no ill Will intended market research may well be interesting on the question what do you think about pale or Belly for that matter.

Turnrightleft

I correct you. Robert alleged that pale broke olo rules. He” thinks” the CEO typed the message.

HOW CHILDISH!

Antje told him she typed the message.

It’s also important we look at the spiteful nature of this thread clearly set up to discredit an organization Talk about making a federal case out of nothing Robert your such a trouble maker and with double standards



. Note that on that same thread a person was using the thread to advertise their book!



. I don’t see Robert opening a thread complain about that poster! and it’s not my intention to cause that poster any problems either.

I am simply drawing your attention to Roberts’s double standards.



His real reason isn’t about OLO rules. This other person is very much in bridge of OLO rules and if you read it he is friendly and even suggests a personal visit.

Which takes me to Robert and the other poster misusing OLO. It’s not an introduction service

However that aside who cares. I stopped posting because I found him offensive. He has re enforced that in his above post.

. Now he’s opened this thread screaming pale has multiple posters.



PALE used to have everybody able to comment on pale but Robert complained to OLO so Graham Young changed it.

That was very disappointing to the members after paying eleven hundred dollars membership. I am NOT posting as PALE as I now have my own OLO membership..



Answers to your question from Taryn not pale 1 to 3

1 yes they have

2. If pale say there is only Antje then that’s the truth

3 None of anybodies business. That’s their problem. . I would like to say I have never seen such a pathetic attempt to cause trouble.

You may think pale is not very professional but I happen to know projects they are putting together to help not only animals but Aboriginal people and Muslim Australians working overseas as well.

They have done what RSPCA Animals Australia and PETA had thirty years to do.

I am a “proud”! member.

Wow!
I can feel the tension from where I am and let me tell you, I'm a heck of a long way from where you guy's are!
Relax max, take a chill-pill or go stroke a cat or something, no-one on this god given earth can advise anyone, who are not themselves personally involved in the situation involving children.
Problems involving parents and their children and between parents who have children in a divorce situation, are best sorted out with what we are given naturally...time.
A divorced couple who seek assistance from a professional, are those who are at a point where they cannot communicate any longer and end-up inadvertently hurting their children psychologically.
These places you speak of are there to assist young mothers (or single parents in general, so I'm lead to believe) We have similar organisations over here that assist and try to understand a situation and assess the position in fine detail before offering a suitable answer to their dillema. It's then up to the individual whether they accept this or not and the decision for the well being of the children will come first and foremost, irrespective of what the parent will decide in this matter and if the decision made by the parent involves the well being of the children.
We are not here to point fingers at those who are at least trying to sort out an "adult" mistake. Those who find themselves in a situation as single parent, need a pat on the back and have some support should it be needed, support thats not overwhelming and to lend an ear, only if it's required. If it's to feel sorry for someone in this situation, just be ready to get told to bugger off.

TarynW

This $1100 is irrelevant. Posting is free, so the amount is for sponsorship. Sponsorship shouldn't have any effect on the operations of the website.

What's the problem with being asked to post under another name? It doesn't have to be the real name.

Okay, so Antje has since said he/she made the post. Was this clear at the time of the post, when they stated they were the CEO of PALE?

As for the notion that it's 'none of anybodies business' whether a poster posts under the name of the organisation - again, that's sidestepping the point.

It has been brought up as a topic for discussion, the point of this site.

I agree with you that in the end, it is their call. Ultimately, nobody here has actually called for banning people from OLO - but as this is a site which discusses topics, isn't a fair topic for discussion, the notion that if someone posts under the name of an organisation, this person's individual approach will cause people to form a certain impression of that organisation?

And, can you tell me, where precisely this thread discredits the organisation? The thread was to offer advice to the CEO of the organisation.
I've still yet to see anything that has proven that advice to be invalid. The very existence of this debate shows that an organisation should adopt very clear policies in relation to spokespeople.

It would be quite reasonable of a journalist to write an article with the paragraph: 'A spokesperson for People Against Live Exports (PALE) stated that the government should consider relaxing gun control laws."

Were this to occur, the effect could be devastating on the organisation.
PALE (the organisation) does not have a large enough profile yet for journalists to be out for these kinds of comments - but were the group to raise its profile, which should be its ultimate aim, then this kind of thing could indeed occur.

Yes, it's their business how they operate. That doesn't mean other people can't comment on the practice, without it being construed as a personal attack.

Comments have been made regarding a breach of Forum rules in what I presume is the Beautiful Tears thread

"Note that on that same thread a person was using the thread to advertise their book! I don’t see Robert opening a thread complain about that poster! and it’s not my intention to cause that poster any problems either. I am simply drawing your attention to Roberts’s double standards. " http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=989#17404

Fair call except that those who care to look will note that I was one of a number of posters who pointed out that breach of rules and the original poster concerned had the grace and maturity to apologise for doing so http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#15237 "I want to apologize to all of you as I didn't realize I was doing anything wrong. My intent was not to promote my book although it does appear that way after reading it again. My intent was to find a group of single parents for support. Again, I apologize sincerely." and in the same post "I have asked that my post be removed and again apologize for offending anyone."

Looks to me like the poster concerned behaved in a manner she can be very proud of.

Also from the post mentioned first "This other person is very much in bridge of OLO rules and if you read it he is friendly and even suggests a personal visit. Which takes me to Robert and the other poster misusing OLO. It’s not an introduction service." - actually the idea of visiting if I was ever in that part of the world was suggested by PALE http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#17090 "Robert you should vist V next your that way.". I happen to agree that I'd be pleased to meet V.Amberlee, she seem like someone I'd be honored to have as a friend. Matchmaking no, enjoying getting to know some of the people I meet on OLO yes.

It seems that the posts from Antje and Taryn are comprised of strawman after strawman, distortion after distortion and almost no addressing of what is actually said or done.

More to follow.

R0bert

Sorry if this is dragging on too much for some of you but for some perverse reason I'm finding this interesting.

I'm intrigued by how much Taryn presumes to know about my private life, she apparently has access to my financial records and is observing me closely enough to know how I spend my time. Kind of creepy.

I looked the rules up earlier regarding use of accounts

"If you are a registered user or subscriber to this site or any of its products or services, you acknowledge and agree that:

- you are solely responsible for the protection and confidentiality of any password or User ID that may be issued to or subscribed for by you from time to time ("User Password");
- you will not reveal (or cause to be revealed through any act or omission) your User Password to any other person;
- you will immediately notify us if your User Password is lost or becomes known to any other person;
- you are solely responsible for all access to and use of this site via your User Password, whether such access or use is by you or any other person;
- registered user or subscriber services are for one user only and you will not let any other person use your User Password or any registered user or subscriber services; and
- any information you provide to us at any time becomes our property.

On face value the post which claimed to be from David was in clear breach of the second last rule. If as Antji claims the post was typed by herself then I'm fine with accepting that the post was a dishonest rather than a breach of rules. Note that Antje only made that claim after this thread was opened.

As for threats of legal action, I'll be interested to see where I've attacked the organisation represented by Antje and Taryn.

R0bert

"This other person is very much in bridge of OLO rules"

What on earth does this mean, and why do both 'PALE'and 'TarynW' use the same malapropism?

This being "in bridge" has featured prominently in posts from PALE members recently - but what are they talking about?

They might of course mean 'in breach', but that would be a curious coincidence.

I'm beginning to think that "People Against Live Exports and Intensive Farming" consists of about 3 people.

Whatever the case, their antics in this forum can only work against the credibility of the organisation that they purport to represent.

Interestingly, their website (http://www.livexports.com/) says:

"Antje Struthmann

Known as the Marsupial Whisperer, Antje is the CEO of PALE and a close friend too all animals."

Is Antje the CEO of PALE, or is it "David"?

Hilarious, but of negative value to the interests of animals, in my opinion.

morgan
As you read our site- probably for the first time you will see pale in conjunction with RSPCA QLD .
We have `one` RSPCA QLD computer and web site man for over two hundred computers.
When he gets time there are several changes to me made.
Again you have tried to defame me personally.
Yes I am also know for my wild care work.
I will now bring this to the attention of others because we have a saying.
enough is enough
I have said before and I will say it again it takes a new low to try to cause trouble for a person working to improve animal welfare or a NFP group of people.
I have long suspected you are a person who requires help.
While I feel sorry for you if that is the case you have left a trial of comments targeted directly both at myself and pale which will not be tolerated.

All I can add is that if the animals are relying on PALE to prevent them being mistreated on ships, I recommend they stock up on seasickness pills if this thread is any indication of the debating and political skills PALE is able to muster.

Oh, and Taryn, I suggest that making threats is not the way to "win hearts and minds". You said:"A word of warning Robert. This has now been sent to Wendy by myself tonight who has not been made aware before .You must be aware her family are lawyers and members and you have posted something not only untrue but defaming. She will never stand for staff being harassed as somebody else found out last year.
Your apology if it’s sincere would probably be accepted at this stage but she wont muck around that’s a certain."

Frankly, I'd love to see "her family" try to make any kind of defamation action out of what has been said here, unless you want to consider some of the statements made by members of your organisation. Do try to grow up.

Good point that bridge, it is in my view just another miss spelling just read pales last post here its about standard.
Now Lady's please review every posts yours and ours in this thread.
See the blind shotgun affect?
The I am not winning this point lets throw both handfuls of stones?
Again and again miss Truth and threats refusal to stay on target is on display.
In debate the most convincing evidence you understand you are wrong.
I am wrong but I am right talk.
Lets get down to the issue, when you post as pale[ why do it] you put everything you say out as pale policy.
Why?
That post that claimed David was CEO was it a lie? mistake? or just another heated wrong word wrong place?
Put the boot into me, it is your habit both of you to do so to every one you oppose, but who is pale?
why not post under another name and refer to pale as it applies?
change the subject, defame us, threaten us but KNOW IT IS PROOF YOU KNOW YOU ARE WRONG.
Now this is not an attempt to rattle your chain but a true vision of how I see pale right now.
A few house wifes intent on being heard but not listening, unaware of the value of thoughts different to there own.
A story often told about slaughter house workers is that they are told to leave their brains in a bucket at the door the boss will do the thinking for them.
I get that idea about pale, sorry but I remain unimpressed with pales PR section.

My my... we are getting animated here. I refer all to my previous post..'encourage one another.. stir one another up to.. love and good works'.... the more animated and emotional we become, the harder that is.. so.. a chill pill (thanx spanky) might be in order.

Robert makes one point "rather than on any specific justification"

So, perhaps Taryn might elaborate one some specifics as to why she wishes to move from the area of the father... (hopefully apart from just punishing him).. I'd want to be seeing 'potential violence' or.. some dangerous reason if total denial of access is the final straw.

Unfortunately, no matter how much of a deadbeat a person is... if he has fathered children with a woman, his sense of attachment (and unless violence is involved) the childrens, cannot be negated.

So... why don't we put aside all the 'accusations' and threats, (on all sides) and just seek to gently work this thing out ?

Romans 15:1---

We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."[a] 4For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

7Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.

SPANKY
A bit off post because I actually just came in here to `thank you` for your kind words to Taryn. Shes a beautiful person.

I think you may have tripped over something or umm bumped into something pardon the pun.
Like to thank you for the first real grin on my face today as I had a smile at your expense I am afraid. I love! your dry humour at your description of the hostess asking if you enjoyed your flight or words to that effect.
Somewhere I read about overseas pilots being employed at cheaper rates.
It must have been something to do with flying out live animals [which terrifies them and is discusting] but I recall they were using these blokes at a much cheaper rate.

I wonder if you did a Googles would it display how many pilots are off shore trained and if so what training and hours they have to get up before taking a domestic flight.
It is An interesting topic you have raised and people should think about these things because I must addmitt I never would have.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 7 September 2007 8:16:54 PM
David Boaz
I didnt have any posts left and your thread of thanks was next on my list. I would also like to ask you a qurestion as you have been with OLO a long time.
This Anti thread pale. Doesnt it go against OLO rules. I mean its clear that its been set up to try to discreit pale and myself.
Surely if OLO have their staff to deal with complaints then it should be left to staff. To me this thread of Roberts show total lack of respect to graham young and his staff.
If he had a complaint should it not have gone to OLO. Perhaps Graham is used to Robert trying to control that too.
Well before I run out "THANKS YOU TOO BOAZIE"

Thats ten points for `you personally` but I would still like the Church leaders to speak out for Gods Creature`s

SPANKY

Thanks for your kind words. When I was single after the separation I couldn’t live off others so I worked in an Abattoir. I worked night shift from six weeks after I had my baby and cleaned and cooked also ran a motel.

Anything to support my kids.



Robert thinks I should have to now choose between my new husband and my kids. I didn’t ask him for his input. He insulted me so I simply left that thread.

Yes I was upset so I left but then I saw Robert gate crash Daivids thread after Antje told him he could not control peple. It is Robert who should be apoligising to David espeically given he has the hide to claim this is about a bridge of froum rules. I note David has been to polite to point that out.

I was on that thread and all Antje said was Robert you cant control other lives. I can’t stand by and see the most wonderful people I have ever met get rubbished. Its so unfair and Roberts shown how nasty he is.
Then when Robert couldnt get Antjes attention on Davd thread like a bully child he opens a hate thread against pale.

I have always loved Animals but it got a lot more than that Spanky.

Of course these others are just as guilty. Just look at their comments. Pale shouldn’t do this and pale shouldn’t comment on other issues than Animal Welfare.

Robert and others will keep going.

I am going to open a thank you Spanky thread and David because I do not wish to continue to post on this one with these vishuios nit picking people.

I would be happy to talk to you from there. It will probably take a few hours or more.

Antisepic
I should clarify I was not making any threats. How could I? I dont run PALE.
I was just expressing my thoughts knowing how much Wendy does not put up with rubbish that might upset her staff.
This thread is a clear attack on pale and I dont think it should be allowed myself.
I just contacted her by phone and much to everybodies relief shes totally cracking up laughing.
"It seems your name was what got her going above everything else."

When I asked her if she was going to complain to Graham about the thread she replied- Are you kidding Taryn you couldn`t buy this type of Publicity.
Shes in a fantasic mood because she had a major break through working with the new Mufti Of Ausutralia but I guess thats up to pale head office to announce.

Wendy is worried about one thing and thats working together with overseas countries to improve Animal Welfare.

Pretty much everything else is unimportant to her other than helping the less fortunate people like Aboriginal and the frail.

I must admitt her laughter has put me in a good mood as well so thanks.

Your coming on this post to show how nasty you are because has caused much laughter.

Your name says it all!
Thanks Antisecpic

The name suites you. My sides are hurting from laughing.

Taryn, you and Antje both seem to overestimate the effectiveness of Antje attempts at abuse and insult. Her claims about control were more amusing than bothersome. I was much more bothered by the scale of the hypocracy in Antje taking someone else to task for making comments personal. The control statement was a fresh reminder of Antje's frequent use of personal attack in posts rather than the reason for the post.

In my view the post I made on that thread while slightly off topic was a legitimate follow on from the post by Antje. Perhaps you could take her to task for her off topic post on that thread if the issue is of such concern to you. If Boazy is bothered by my post not being right on topic he can comment but I think that he honest enough with himself to recognise that he would not be in a strong position on that score. It may be a case of the pot calling the pot black for both of us on that one. Actually if Boazy will promise never ever to post off topic again he may have my most profuse apology for my transgression on the thread he started.

By the way can you, Antje or David please answer a question. When a post comes in under the name of "People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming" does it represent the official viewpoint of that organisation on that issue of is it Antje's opinion?

I have always assumed that the posts represented Antje's opinion and have responded accordingly but the ongoing suggestion by your self and Antje that your orgainsation is being attacked by myself lead me to believe that you and Antje regard those posts as the official position of the organisation "People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming" on issues such as residency laws, hospital treatment for people not born here, the threat posed by muslims, politics, my finances and love life, my and CJ Morgans mental health etc.

R0bert

Hehe, not much changes on the Pale threads. It seems to me that
if these girls arn't squabbling with somebody, they might be
bored!

Taryn, yet another point in one of your posts that I'd not addressed earlier.

"Robert thinks I should have to now choose between my new husband and my kids. I didn’t ask him for his input. " http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=989#17465

Taryn, if you read back through that thread you will note that you choose to put your circumstances up on a public thread, my response to what I understood of your circumstance was supportive and your friend Antje then asked me a specific question regarding my views and a different interpretation of your situation. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#15962

I kept my answer general and avoided as far as practical reference to your specific situation. I've no interest in causing you unnecessary hurt but nor do I feel a need to change my views because they may distress someone.

I reread those posts because I was concerned that Antje may have introduced your situation into the thread and that I may have commented on it without your consent for your situation to be in the discussion. That is not the case.

Perhaps you should discuss with Antje her decision to press for an opinion regarding your situation instead of my attempts to keep the answer general rather than specific to your situation.

Later in the discussion I accept that I was more specific, if I have given offence for comment on your specific situation rather expressing my viewpoints on the overall topic I apologise for that. If you are upset because my viewpoints don't suit you then sorry but thats life.

R0bert

Ever read the credit section at the end of a movie, where it states:
"All names used in the making of this film are fictitious", "names and places names changed to protect the innocent", "anything resembling the nature of this film has no bearing on anyone and is purely coincidental"

This is exactly how this thread is supposed to work, any resemblence in these threads to anyones private lives, doings and/or way of life, has nothing to do with what is written in these passages and should always be taken as coincidental.

These threads are made up of words put together by a fictitious name, no face, no addresses, absolutely without curriculum and identification, only thoughts of others relating to others without knowing who they are talking to,..thats all.

Come SPANKY read the whole thread, review the two threads that are mentioned here.
Understand the threats both Lady's have used, understand the very near deliberate lie that this thread is anti pale.
Is that the group, one member or more who are we said to be discriminating against.
Is the confusion of this David posting as pale CEO not worthy of investigation?
Is every word pale prints the thoughts and views of that group or just one rather abrupt lady?
And gate crashing a David Boaz thread? how can that be done? tell me how?
BD your God has no part in this debate, you mean well but it is about openness and good manners while you have been close to pale in some threads you have like most of us got the Sharpe side of bitter words too.
Is it pale the group who thinks like those words or just one[or more?] who post under that name.
PALE is an animal rights group, is it wise to have every person in that group held responsible for such posts?
Again judging on what I read here pale is a poorly run group unable to focus on its main reason to exist, unconcerned at its public image, and far too often uses insults rather than debate.

I WOULD ASK POSTERS TO LOOK AT PALES LAST TWO POSTS IN RUDD ENDANGERING AUSTRALIA OR SOME SUCH.
I will make every effort to reduce my heat and pain
the forum comes first however can we take the group known as pale on face value?

belly
I will let you in on a little secret. God has a place everywhere and even he or especially he wont be bullied by a union. I can see it now the ALP Church Union. Cricky look out Boazie.
I will let you in on another little secret there are several of us present in this office right now as I type this/.
Do you want to launch an investigation into who or should I say whom is tapping these keys.
Have you ever stopped to think what a good PR excersise this is for the public to get a first hand look at the mentality of this new face ALP unions?
Whats changed belly.? Why do you think big small business and big companies shy away from Labour. I will tell you why belly because of empty headed complaints and trouble makers stirring up crap and waisting everbodies time.
oh sure its alright for the union bosses because they get paid while you launch your guess whos tapping the keys enquiry but the bosses have to pay staff wages while you do as your friend does try to control everyone.
belly you got one thing right. If you can guess what it is I promise to *promise to back off your buddy Rudd. BUT you have to guess first which statement you got one hundred percent right ok?
So heres the two questions again
A Who`s tapping the keys?
B Which statement have you got one hundred percent right?
To make it more interesting you can invite others to compete and even have a shilling on the side.
I cant be more fair than that.
[ Naughty boy yabbs]

PALE: "Have you ever stopped to think what a good PR excersise this is..."

Yes, it's really great PR for 'People Against Live Exports and Coherent English'.

I'm glad you got a chuckle out of my handle. It's a shame you don't seem to be able to muster a coherent argument, however. The animal exporters must get a huge laugh out of your correspondence with them - I know I usually get a giggle out of your efforts here. I was surprised to see that "Wendy" thinks demonstrating your organisation's lack of competence is good publicity. It does help explain why animals continue to be exported (in increasing numbers) despite your organisation's best efforts though.

REPLY from PALE
belly said-
can we take the group known as pale on face value?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:20:32 PM
PALE REPLIES
Sure we can belly- Your own words>

your age and lack of education,or just the view of a very bitter old lady? miss spell posts are always worth a read.
Is it pale the group[ all 3 of you]or this poster who is so out of touch with Australia?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:15:59 PM
I AM A PAID TRADE UNION OFFICIAL.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:15:59 PM


PALE REPLIES
So belly whats a paid Union Offical doing following and beating up on one very bitter old lady who miss spells, all[3] Blow the Whistle
Stop Work!
Down tools
cricky a Paid trade Union Official. Well Goooollly! "that is a real surprise".

Is this the way you treat people from other countries as A Paid Union Offical.? I mean is this an official ALP policy?

Well I guess that makes more sense if your being paid. I was wondering why you were following me around to be honest.
I dont get paid myself because my concern is to help Animals but moments like these do make it worth while I must confess.

I honestly do not know what your mean by the `other fellow` in Newcastle or pulling someone out of a machine so I can not comment/.

You sound like you need to lie down with a Bex. Take it easy belly its just a forum not live news.[ lucky for you]

Ever occured to you that by following me around rubbishing pale calling me old, bitter, poking fun at my spelling is not a good look for a paid union official?

Been a good day filled with laughter.
Who said the ALP were not good for something.
A PAID UNION OFFICIAL PICKING ON A LITTLE OLD BITTER LADY TRYING TO HELP ANIMALS[ In your own words.]

This is better than the ABC Chasers
funny As!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday,

Live export trade inquiry would be like lambs to slaughter


THE RSPCA may have the answer for fed¬eral Labor politicians struggling to galv¬anise voters with the AWB bribery scandal.
The recent 60 Minutes program on Channel 9 revealing cruelty on Australian cattle in the Middle East hit a nerve.
Not that the RSPCA was surprised by the strong response from Australians outraged at endemic cruelty in the live export trade.
Many Australian voters may not give two hoots about $300 million in kickbacks to Saddam Hussein to sew up Australian wheat sales to Iraq. But it would be a different story if the AWB was ever linked to live exports.

The Gold Coast-based Halal Kind Meats is off to the backblocks of Queensland and West¬ern Australia to look for Australian slaughter¬ing opportunities. Dozens of Australian abatt¬oirs have closed since the live export trade boomed in the 1990s. Kindness to animals is part of the Australian 'fair go' tradition.
The temporary ban on the export of live cattle to Egypt over the 60 Minutes expose looks like a token gesture from a government committed to livestock exports.
Labor appears more concerned with the future of Australia's livestock trade overseas than banning the practice. Even noted animal

lover, HM The Queen, passed the buck back to Australia when asked to intervene.
Cattle rate No. 2 on live export numbers. Sheep are export kings. Those imperfect or injured ones not fed to the sharks or minced alive await their fate at Middle Eastern slaugh¬terhouses. Travel from farm to abattoir can take three months.
Animal welfare zealots reckon Australia's live export trade is 'a story of profit at any cost'. With six million sheep, 850 cattle and 100,000 goats shipped offshore each year there must be a juicy quid in the game for someone.

to be continued

Robert, I don't think we have a rule against many people using the one identity. The rule is against the one person using many identities. I wouldn't let someone else use my identity, but as I understand it PALE's identity sometimes accidentally gets used by other posters because a number of them use the same computer and may not log-off from their identity each time they finish with the forum.

The result is that sometimes a poster with a separate identity ends up using Antje's because they post without realising they haven't logged in separately. I've accepted that as a genuine mistake. In fact I've once or twice accidentally done it myself when visiting other OLO readers, but as moderator I have tools to fix the problem as soon as it happens.

I don't think it behoves anyone to criticise others on the forum for ungrammatical sentence construction, or poor spelling. Most of you are an editor's nightmare.

I do think you should all stop insulting each other. Most people who spend a long time on this forum are most likely genuine or they wouldn't spend the time discussing these issues, although this can be, and frequently also is, a sign of eccentricity.

Insults are against the forum rules, and it looks like I am going to have to enforce the rules as this thread appears to be getting out of hand.

Graham - I personally don't think the multiple identity thing is much of an issue, I pointed it out but did not recommend deletion. The rule I'm thinking of is

"- registered user or subscriber services are for one user only and you will not let any other person use your User Password or any registered user or subscriber services;"

As Antje pointed out she apparently typed the message so the rule would not have been broken although the post did not make that clear.

I'm more concerned about the regular claims that the organisation PALE is being attacked when the actions or views of people posting under their name are commented on negatively. Browse their posts and you will see plenty of instances of that. The most recent which I'm aware of is not particularly clear but was in response to a post by Belly http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=993#17512

The message which claimed to be from David CEO of PALE http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#17174 also made similar claims and included a reference to lawyers, given that nobody elses occupations were mentioned I'd read that as a veiled threat against a poster.

There have been others where it is made clear that Antje thinks that responding negatively to her comments on almost any topic is an attacking on the protection of animals.

There were suggestions of legal action against myself by members of Wendy's family supposedly for defaming PALE the organisation when I'm fairly confident that I've never attacked the organisation and their work (although I have expressed concern at them allowing Antje to post personal views on a wide range of topics under their name). Their choice but I don't like being accused of attacking their work as a consequence.

In regard to insults it's your site go for it. Personally I've not noticed anything much different on this thread to that which can be found on most threads but I may be to involved in the discussion to be objective.

Cheers
R0bert

Belly,
In answer to your question:
One step at a time, Graham Y has the near correct approach.
Decypher the last five threads and try to understand what is actually afoot here.
In one instance, we have the rantings and ravings of those directly involved with PALE, the opposition defending IT'S rights and before you know it, the thread has become a huge discimination affair that was in fact supposed to have been averted at all costs, we do not need any type of slander nor ugly issue, raising it's ugly head for others to identify and prey on, as many of the users on this thread are doing, you and I and others are doing it at this very moment and I find it very unnecessary.
Take note of what I wrote in my last thread and you will see the truth lies in it's passage.
A lot of people who read these threads, read them word for word and take it with a pinch of salt, then we have those who read between the lines and immediately take words in the wrong context and before you know it, all hell breaks loose.

RObert made a comment and was disliked because of it, like many of us, we tend to always spend time dislodging our feet from our mouths from certain things we said, on the other hand, we have the hard-a*se "bar-stewards" who couldn't give a flying s**t for what they say on these threads, they are not aware there are some fragile people out there, with feelings,... just like you and I.

Now then,
It's a known fact that persons working for and on behalf of animal protection groups, rightists, agency's and the like, are in fact people who have witnessed attrocities, that over time and rightly so, have become hard toward other people and fully against any form of cruelty or misconduct towards animals, there are some groups who hide behind a "name" of some sorts for there own personal gain and if this is the case with PALE, which is clearly a point being highlighted here, amongst other things, then I suggest somebody had better take a step in dismantling this organisation if what is said is true.

"eccentric" aye :)

Graham Young
Thank you for controlling OLO I am sure you have more to do. PALE will try not to offend anybody. We respond if personally attacked to defend our position 'only'. Let OLO run OLO and leave complaints to OLO staff and Director. I doubt Robert will listen to `even you`.

To everybody else-This will be our last post under this thread. [A couple of posts long because I would like to say something nice to each person]

This forum some-bodies business. It’s a political forum. Please let’s not spoil its good reputation by abusing it for school yard standards.

We look forward to seeing you all in other threads and hope we can all make a genuine effort to respect each other and learn from others comments.
PALE has no political agenda and stands apart for from all for that very reason.

SPANKY
You in particular have explained pales position probably better than we ever could have.- Thank you

I don’t know who you are but you have an amazing insight into the awfully political overture to Animal Welfare organizations in Australia.

Yes we stand alone for the Animals. Your ‘correct’ daily we see dreadful things covered up by all sides of Government and Industries [and others]?
We had some wonderful news last week sent with the blessings of the new Australian Mufti. They agree along with Saudi Arabia contacts that Animal Welfare needs a higher priority.

They are going to support our program to assist Aborinal people by reopening pre stunning abattoirs in Australia. They “will” support pre stunning as well plus look at the use of gas to render animals unconscious before having their throats cut.
We need the others to support the HKM proposal working with Muslim leaders of Australia which has been done exclusively by pale. They refuse.

Something`s terribly wrong with politics and Animal groups. In our work we hope to bind even closer friendships with our new Mufti of Australia and our Muslim Australians Aboriginal people. By helping the Animals we help ourselves and this country.
Blessings of peace to all.

1)
This has been a most interesting thread. It has raised issues that I believe had to be validly raised.

At the outset, I will indulge in a little obsequiousness(!). OLO has been a discovery for me; it IS without doubt as someone else has said , the premier debating site in Australia; bar none.

Any of you who do or have belonged to other forums will know that there is frequent criticism of moderator intervention. In my view this treats posters AT TIMES, as children who cannot say one thing out of line. Particularly if the site has a leaning to Right or Left, or whatever other bias. And that IS frequently the case.

Quite simply that is blessédly missing here. There is an excellent leeway to express our views. We are accepted as mature adults with differing views. That is pure joy to me. It IS a privilege.

For the MD. of OLO to post then, is interesting, and pretty obviously considered as necessary.

2)
It would be easy for me to stop at 1), but I too am amazed that a registered? organisation could involve itself in a PERSONAL bunfight in the manner in which it has.

The important work of PALEaIF cannot be underestimated. I wholeheartedly support it. BUT...;

would I ever join your organisation? No chance! Specifically because PERSONAL views and opinions have REPEATEDLY been expressed under the PALEaIF banner; and this has been REPEATEDLY justified by P/L.

With the greatest of respect; I believe that that has seriously damaged the standing of P/F as a valuable organisation.

At the very least IF members of P/F are not allowed membership as individuals AND a P/F m/ship; then ANY response or opinion of/from an INDIVIDUAL and NOT P/F should carry a qualifier that that was the case.

That has not occurred; rather to the contrary, and that I humbly suggest is what is causing more than a little angst.

Please believe me I had told myself the forum is the first thing we should be concerned about.
Far too many sites are gone via minor disputes that got out of hand.
I now explain something about why I was so hurt by a post.
It is gone now deleted? but it rehashed a claim that I am not a paid union official.
One made and used by another union, spread around construction sites to defame me, it has been proved untrue many times.
But it hits hard at my heart my very reason for living.
It is my personal view the union of tomorrow will be mainstream, unafraid to sit down and get the best deal for its members.
I hate threats on work sites, from unions or bosses.
And forever want the center unions to understand we must publicly untie our selfs from thuggery.
That insult was passed to a group who I RIGHT OR WRONG DO NOT DISLIKE, BUT BELIEVE FAR TOO MANY DIFFERENT PEOPLE ARE POSTING AS.
I have been in conversation here with more than one poster using that tag?
the barbs and insults are not worth concern but far from small or rare.
Let us try to stay on track RObert has done no wrong BOAZ Davids last post here says it all Graham has not offended me and done a good job, is it not worth considering this question?
Is it good manners to have more than one person using a tag?
And is it hard to change.
Given the depth of contempt I hold for those who manufactured the insult some years ago, and the fact it found its way here I question why would the group known as pale not be concerned at needless involvement with elements of radical unionism?
Why let such a group dirty its hands?
However I do understand they did not understand the full impact of the information given to them by another poster.
And having been given that information I ask that they do not again defame anyone as a debating tool

A little secret:
A long time ago, in another country, a group of teenagers were conspiring to gut an outbound fair-sized ship that carried hundreds of cattle, sheep, pigs, you name it and amongst them, were seperate cages containing dogs and cats, not listed on the official itinery for export along with the cattle, to various countries.
The group of teenagers had obviously done a lot of homework, motivated from a tip-off from a person working for an export company.

Although they were well aware of the state they would find the poor animals in, stored in the bowels of this ship, they had not prepared themselves for what they witnessed, after having sneaked on-board during the night, prior the ship leaving the following day.

The teenagers found that the dogs and cats were not being exported as live stock, but as meat, skinned and hung inside seperate cages away from the cattle.
If it had not been for the scream from one of the teenagers on being the first to make the find, they could have alerted the proper authorities at the time, but again, the outrage was covered up and later found out, that all the authorities found in the hold, was in fact live cattle. No-one ever found out where the dogs and cats had disappeared to. The teenagers were arrested that night and maybe for good reason, they were about to scuttle the ship without thinking of the animals inside. Possibly motivation to not let export of live animals continue?

The latest posts from Ginx must be from an imposter. They were sensibly written with no 'sighs', 'umms' or other stupid exclamations and 'deliberate spelling mistakes'. The usual lack of logic was lacking.

This just couldn't be my wee Ginx.

Belly, I don't share your view that many posters are posting as PALE. There was one case where the person using that site name claimed to be someone else. I highlighted that from a recollection that it was against the rules, Antje provided an explanation which whilst I don't personally like would fit within the rules and Graham has demonstrated the importance of that rule in the scheme of things. It was never intended to be a main point in this thread, if I'd considered it a serious issue I would have recommended the post for deletion. If multiple people are using the one login name they each get less posts than they would otherwise so there is no gain for them.

It would ease things if Antje could include her name on posts under the PALE banner so that we were able to respond without accused of criticising the organisation. I think that many of us who disagree with Antje on a variety of issues share a dislike of live exports and animal crulety. Others have made the point very well about the risk to their work in allowing that situation to continue.

Whilst threads like this carry a risk I like the fact that most of this discussion was confined to one thread, I hope that has reduced the impact of this discussion on other threads. I end up having mixed feelings about responding to the many false claims that have been made about myself on this and other threads. I've tried to rebutt the more obvious ones (but have not got them all so don't assume no rebuttal means a claim is true). I've not seen any withdrawal of any of the original claims on the basis of a detailed rebuttal but hopefully others have the picture by now. On the other hand rebutting those lies seems to just add fuel to the fire and prolong this.

Cheers all.
R0bert

Wow. Interesting thread.

I notice plenty of concern that the reputation of PALE is at risk. Has anyone thought of the reputation of OLO?

The skullduggery around here can be pretty obvious sometimes. It doesn't take all that long to work out the difference between genuine commenters and those playing a variety of games this medium makes possible. When people abuse it, even inadvertently, it lowers the value of the exercise for all of us.

Personally I'd hate to see this site's reputation trashed because a few take advantage.

For that reason, regardless of whoever, or whatever, PALE purports to be or any of the other details raised in this thread, thank you rObert for raising the issue. It's about time.

RObert I have no Axe to grind in fact chainsmoker is quite right the forum has the most important roll to play.
I however have tried to forgive some things said over a long period, and without doubt have entered into debate with at least 2 different posters under the pale banner.
Just finding this out in the past week, I got on quite well with the person born in Kempsy.
But that is clearly not the main user of the name.
I do not find my roll in this thread or others any worse than some of pales, and yes I understand the false claim about me was done not knowing its full impact, but it was a low blow.
Not a true debating ploy, to try to find fault with me not my posts.
It is best we do not prolong the debate, it however has been one that had over 60 posts so far, interest was above average.
And RObert while you and I live on opposing sides of politics I do think your post was well thought out,did no harm, and has points that call for attention.
Some charges laid against you again take debate and truth into deep mud, such debate hurts only those who use it and puts a spotlight on why such claims are used as debating points.
May I say just this animals need protection always this last few weeks has not convinced me pale best represents them.

Wouldn't it be simpler if whoever posts here as PALE just signed off with their name or nickname when making personal comments that are not made on behalf of the organisation?

Seems to me that would get rid of much of the angst some people seem to be suffering.

SPANKY
Be proud shake the hand of the person working
for that export company.
www.livexports.com

Poor Graham
Dont worrying how pale runs.
Lets `all` show consideration.

Ginx – Agreed- yes it IS a privilege. One we need to protect.
PALE is only registered NFP to enable us to seek Volunteers.


Morgan
You call me racist but we are the only group in Australia to have formed a MOU with Muslim Leaders. You support the Greens. Same here. I am German born and I do get spelling incorrect. This is a very old RSPCA QLD computer and word spell does not work often.
Lets try harder to respect all.

David -
"Eccentric" aye :)
Posted by BOAZ David, Sunday, 9 September 2007 8:37:22 AM
To be eccentric is a compliment. So you and I will wear it as a badge of pride.
You’re a good person who will be crucified by many.
Your concerned about the rise in Islamic extremist’s world wide and rightfully so. Don’t ever think law abiding Australian Muslims will hold that against you. [[most]
I feel honoured the Lord chose me as one of his servants to help his creatures.
I `utterly detest ` the hypocrisy of the Ministers and Church leaders of Australia who have remained silent in the face of such atrocities to our Animals.

We will continue to highlight the lack of concern by Churches and Church Leaders towards Animal Welfare.
. – And thanks! Boazie.

Belly.
You take everything personally.
Thanks for explaining your position.
We are from the same paddock.
Look at the web see the X Federal leader of the AMIEU. So we are not Anti Labour people. Just anti people exporting our raw materials jobs and acts of animal cruelty.
You have to except we have a job to do. Howard cops worse.
I enjoy your comments and sorry but you make us laugh.
Good luck for the elections


Robert. I have only one question. How did you manage to get your picture up under – Find the Perfect office space that’s right for you/
Funny As.

Antje, I tried to make sense of your question but have not managed to do so. Perhaps a rephrase is in order (or if other posters understood it they may be able to enlighten me). If it is a legitimate question relevant to my involvement on OLO I will attempt to answer it.

Now I'll have another go at my questions to you. I changed the phrasing to try and make it clearer.

1/ Do posts appearing under the name of "People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming" represent the views of that organisation or are they the views of the person making the post (presumably you)?

For question 2 pick the question relevant to the answer given in "1"
2a/ If they are your own views then how is People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming defamed or criticised when people respond to the contents of those posts?
2b/ If they are the views of People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming (the orgainsation) why should that organisation be exempt from criticism or rebuttal of those views expressed on a public forum?

R0bert

RObert I am full to over flowing with questions not unlike the ones you put above.
In several threads today and last night I put views that did not appear to get an answer I too am baffled by the idea that my membership of a ham radio club was funny?
I have visited past threads to question my memory about conversations with some one other than the poster you mention as pale ,and I can confirm it took place.
Let me however explain some things in another way.
Last night I spoke on ham radio,just maybe I am free next weekend not on duty.
Every bit of information I gave the other person saw him ask me to repeat.
It is fact ,and strange that some want to be heard but do not listen, some want to be read but do not fully read others posts or understand them.

"The latest posts from Ginx must be from an imposter. They were sensibly written with no 'sighs', 'umms' or other stupid exclamations and 'deliberate spelling mistakes'. The usual lack of logic was lacking.

This just couldn't be my wee Ginx."
Posted by JSP1488, Sunday, 9 September 2007 4:58:13 PM

Every poster has stuck to the topic of this thread. Except you.

All that you had to contribute here was to have yet another shot at me. That's it. No opinion on the thread topic; just using it for sarcasm to an individual who has no connection to the thread title.

It is highjacking the thread for your own purposes. If you want to continue to take me on; do it on the 'Oz Culture' thread as you have been doing.

Sorry Robert.

Just stating an observation my wee Ginx. Didn't take long for you to bite. For someone who was irrelevant on the 'Oz Culture' thread, you have a cheek to comment on me.

Why do you want me to return to the 'Oz Culture' thread when it was you who recommended I visit others, as you seemed to think that I was stuck on the one thread?

The truth isn't sarcasm. Maybe you just don't like it.

Silly wee cheeky Ginx

Ginx, no need to be sorry. The reason for calling this a carpark is that it's a space where issues can be sorted out. I don't own the space.

Now rather then use a full post for that I'll follow up on yet another false claim that was made about myself earlier in the discussion and talk a little bit about carparks.

The original carpark was not opened to cause trouble for PALE or people associated with PALE as was alleged earlier "I recall you from a year or so ago when you opended a similar thread for the same purpose to cause trouble for PALE." http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=989#17344)

See the opening post of that carpark http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=70#1435

A number of the posts were deleted so it's a bit disjointed. It was opened because I had had a misunderstanding with a particular poster that I wanted to resolve and because I wanted to see how the idea would work to get that stuff away from the other threads.

My recollection of the thread (with the missing bits) is that my role and the thread were initially supported by those associated with PALE but that I fell out of favour for refusing to side against the site administrators in a conflict that was occuring at the time.

Some of the same issues which we are discussing now were an issue during the life of that carpark (but not part of the original opening) http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=70#3272

chainsmoker's point about the reputation of OLO is a good one. One of the troubles of a public discussion forum such as this is that it is difficult to sort out some of the personality issues which seem to be part of life online without doing so in a fairly public manner. It is my hope that by taking some of this stuff off to the side of the main discussions that the gains to OLO are greater than the harm.

R0bert

Robert.
PALE will not be responding to you- Now or in the future.
Show some consideration for OLO and Graham Young if nothing else.


enough !.

Hey you guys, cool it, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, my pc just got a speed wobble with all this sarcasm, it's trying to decypher and keep up with all the speedy replies and dryness in this thread.

We all have our difference of opinions, it's a free world and full to the brim of people using "free speech" to the max! Take these comments with a pinch of salt and cast them to the wind, you may never meet these people in these threads anyway.

The threads are here for our own personal enjoyment, just read it, swallow it and spit it out if you start to choke on it, thats all.

I often wonder what would happen if we all had to share our real names and actually exchange photo's of one another, I think it would be pretty freaky, especially when one already has a made-up picture in their heads of what one actually looks like, I mean..can you imagine what BELLY would look like? or lets get silly...CHAINSMOKER!
Have some imagination like me..Spanky!

Come on SPANKY! so a couple broke into a wrestling match late in the thread.
It in no way damages the intent of the thread.
Did you research other threads to see why the heat?
Even look into my post history ,maybe ROberts And those who have indeed posted under pale.
I find nothing to fight you about, no reason to dislike you, but why would we need to unmask?
Is it safe or wise to do so?
No one surely said or thinks that is the problem?
I must tell you my surname is Bell I indeed am a union official in Newcastle.
How hard would it be to find me? how rude if not invited ?
It serves no purpose to reveal our true id, think however one of my posts did so, after if I am not wrong a taunt that it was gutless not to do so.
A review of my posts after this thread started will see I am careful in reply to one poster, even leaving threads that hold true interest for me rather than get involved in trash talk.
RObert has done no wrong, in the mending of hurt ego,s that should take place we should note 70 posts have been made here.
That in a thread partly about personal insults ,many seemingly pointless ones have been aimed at him.
Can I ask why is it so hard to say yes Belly you have and are/are not likely, to talk to different people posting as pale?
pale nothing but good will to you here, please tell me the answer to that question and after re reading this thread would you care to tell of each wrong thing you think RObert did?
Are we free to talk about issues like this? the answer should be yes, but with two way respect and always with honesty please.
If we intend to mend the rip in the good will on this site let us remember the forum deserves better from all of us but freedom of speech must not be at the expense of honesty.

Belly, thanks. Your input is appreciated. I'm still getting chuckles over the suggestion made to you that I'm some kind of union/ALP plant. I love the fact that posters such as yourself, CJ Morgan and I (and others) can disagree on issues but still hold respect for one another. That we can approach our online experience in differing ways without making it personal.

Spanky "I often wonder what would happen if we all had to share our real names and actually exchange photo's of one another"

My concern is that some (and I'm not pointing fingers in a particular direction here, I've had the concern longer than that) would not respect boundaries and try and use tracable contact information to take debates, personal agenda's and revenge for slights a lot further off site than a carpark. Imagine if your workplace started to receive false allegations about you based on someone being upset here. If some of our religious fundies got local contacts to start targetting us for daring to disagree.

Those of us who comment on family law issues might find our ability to speak freely significantly hampered because our own stories then identify other parties, we could potentially end up on C$A blacklists. We might find career opportunities hampered as potential employers use the web to find out more about us and might not like something said on a topic unrelated to work.

In my experience some (but not all) of those who choose to use their real names show no qualms in using abusive behaviour on this forum, the negatives in my view far outweigh any potential benefits.

R0bert

"Just stating an observation MY wee Ginx.....Silly wee cheeky Ginx" (Quote:Jasperloony)

Sorry. I didn't realise that you were as bent as a two-bob watch.

This is a little tiff isn't it? It never really occurred to me that you were having a little hissy fit.

R0bert; OK, a carpark. Got it;- but I still see this thread as concerning another specific issue. However I am adaptable (not in the same way as Jasperloony!!), but no worries.

Away you go Jasperloony. I'll try to be gentle with you..........

I'll try to be less...er,.."irreleavant", sugar.

Weird and obsessed
Far from his best
His best is a joke
Nowt so queer as folk.

Belly,
Before I answer your question and please forgive my ignorance, but what the heck has a carpark got to do with PALE?(or am I missing something here?) My feeble brain is telling me the obvious and that being, PALE is operating anti-cruelty from.... A CAR PARK?
(something just told me I've made a real boob of myself for asking this question)

Belly,
In reply to your last comment, touche! (and ring-a-ding-ding Mr bell.)
You are right and applaud your integrity, however, the fact still remains, to insult or deface character in the use of these threads is tasteless and tactless, although I must admit, we are only human and I would also venture at going for the jugular if someone had to openly insult me in these threads.

I have no beef with you iether and thoroughly enjoy the way you and RObert handle comments in this thread, RObert is not beligerent nor beneign in standing up to his beliefs (RObert, jump in here anytime you like mate) just like the rest of us.

I on the other hand, due to my stature in society, must in most cases stand back,assess, then comment and exercise caution in my replies, it's what I do for a living.

PALE,
Oh..please come back to this thread?..we'll miss you in here, pretty please with a cherry on top!
What the heck will we have to gripe about if you leave?

just for You Spanky
2-Minute Management Course
Lesson One:
An eagle was sitting on a tree resting, doing nothing. A small rabbit saw
the eagl e and asked him, "Can I also sit like you and do nothing?" The
eagle answered: "Sure, why not." So, the rabbit sat on the ground below
the eagle and rested. All of a sudden, a fox appeared, jumped on the
rabbit and ate it .

Management Lesson - To be sitting and doing nothing, you must be sitting
very, very high up.

Lesson Two:
A turkey was chattin g with a bull. "I would love to be able to get to the
top of that tree," sighed the turkey, "but I haven't got the energy."
"Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?" replied the bull.
"They're packed with nutrients." The turkey pecked at a lump of dung, and
found it actually gave him enough strength to reach the lowest branch of
the tree. The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second
branch. Finally after a fourth night, the turkey was proudly perched at
the top of the tree. He was promptly spotted by a farmer, who shot him out
of the tree.

Management Lesson - Bull SH might get you to the top, but it won't keep
you there.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Wednesday, 6 September 2006 7:56:30 AM

Get some sleep

Heres One For belly

Of course women dont work as hard as men....

They get it right the first time..

Does anybody know any good Turkey and Ham jokes?

SPANKY Gday, well it was ROberts thread, it came to birth in another thread, that discussion was about insults and the way some posters behave.
It included reference to more than one posting as pale, and why it may be so.
Car park, rather like a stop work meeting Robert took it to its own thread to distance it from that first thread.
The thread soon got heated, it proved barbs and such to be a debating point for some.
Insults, clearly false claims, even near lies came into print.
But the air got a bit of a clean out, such matters attracted the forums boss, he let us know he was watching but showed control, we partly sorted our issues out.
Some answers have never come and never will, but behavior has improved.
Sorry to play the victim, but if you read between the lines, the lie that was handed by one Newcastle poster to pale,,,, who could not have known the full hurt full impact of that lie.
Understand just how deeply I feel about my union, and like it or not just how hard I fight against lunatic radicals.
You will at least understand that low blow is while weakened by its unknowing impact, was an attempt to hurt me,,,,not a debating tool .
Yet I am content to forgive not forget those actions here and now.
One day when in a good mood pale will tell us of a few who post under that sign in name.
Maybe even see its way clear to see we always know who we are speaking to regards all.

Spanky, my initial idea for the "Carpark" was if things get a bit heated or off topic the participants should take it out into the Carpark to sort it out rather than impose their stuff on everybody else.

Too often peoples ability to posts on topics of interest is hampered by ongoing conflicts that are sometimes the result of misunderstandings. In the original carpark a poster felt soldout by me for not having responded strongly to a long term friend who had given me a hard time in a post. I'd been through enough with the friend that I prefered to cut some slack assuming that I'd touched a nerve and that we all have our points where we don't show our best side. Something I wanted to sort out but not really relevant to the thread it was on.

I don't remember all the detail and have not looked back into the history more than that.

The carpark is a place for those who don't want to impose their off topic issues on other posters to go to try and sort it out (or at least answer malicious claims made about them) without bogging down threads that have real topics.

R0bert

Thank you gentlemen,...RObert,Belly,PALE,

Now I am able to rid this image I have, of exported animals tied to vehicles in some out-of-the-way truck stop cum carpark!

I know a little bit about dispute resolution, after all it is my job.
To resolve this issue should be our aim, all of us.
I note posts have changed ,some quaint references to being in the same paddock, but nothing on multiple users of a sign in.
A simple explanation of why it took place would end the debate
It is clear that not going to take place some are unable to see another side.
I am unhappy at constant change of directions in this game of verbal tennis, so varied the game becomes something different all together.
Failure to address the issues is a weakness, we must under stand we gain nothing by waiting for answers we will never get.
I am no enemy of free speech but is the thread just started based on truth?
Has RObert or anyone told those we know as pale anything other than we respect the animal rights part of their posts, maybe do not agree with it all but no one is saying anything wrong here.

PATENT/COPYRIGHT applied for.... this thread is a hoot :)

To you maybe David but you have more than once offered to come to my rescue from stand over people , if you knew you would not bother while I never started a fight in my life I never walked away from one.
I am out of bed and here because I feel hurt more than you can believe.
Do me this favor, it will be a long task but worth while, find the list of my posts read the last say 50.
Find pales do the same, note please the post that says Kempsy is his/her birth place, and the one claiming Germany is.
Read ROberts last 50 note RObert is a conservative supporter.
Find any insults aimed at the cooperate image of pale, find anything other than questions about who we are talking to and apparent needless rudeness.
Understand the impact of lies given to pale by a poster who has not posted from this threads beginning, read why I regard it as a low act.
Yes some may think the thread is fun.
Its intent was never to see pale tear its self to pieces not to hurt pale.
But we must except it will unless some one with in that group sits them down and talks about focus on animal welfare.
About maybe a pale team signing in as pale one two three ext.
And just maybe a note that a post is the personal view of that member not pale the group if it is so.
Another thread has started build on? what is it built on? how can it be so far from reality ? truth? or animal welfare.

Whoever is posting as PALE has again posted regarding an imagined romance between myself and V.Amberlee.

An outright lie. Regardless of other considerations (personal preference, other relationships etc) we live on opposite sides of the world and have children and ex's. An aspect of parenting which I think we were both clear about in posts on the Beautiful Tears thread.

I take my responsibilities to my son seriously and try and think ahead. I would not consider beginning a romantic envolvement with someone where it was clear that if the relationship progressed it would require wrong doing to grow that relationship.

I believe it is wrong to remove children from regular contact with any parent who has a viable level of involvement in their lives and who poses no genuine safety risk to those children (sufficient to have the children removed from their care by the authorities).

Starting a relationship with someone where the only viable long term path for the growth of the relationship would cause children to loose contact with a parent would in my view be seriously wrong. When a consequence of an choice is so clear it's a lot easier to not start than to try and deal with the harm later.

I am also to have women as friends without the expectation that every cross gender friendship has to be based on a romantic relationship.

R0bert

It appears that questions have been answered at least in part on another thread.

"However unlike others pale has no political agenda and is totally dedicated to improving conditions for Animals."

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=959#17863

If I read that correctly it would suggest that the various political threads opened and commented on under PALE's name are in fact the personal views of the person using that name and not official statements by that organisation. Hence there is no basis to assume that critical responses to posts expressed under that banner are criticism of the organisation unless specifically stated to be so.

As the poster says in that same post "We know you cant have your cake and eat it too."

Now if we can just find an answer regarding the organisations official position on statements made under the banner of PALE about private individuals mental health, relationship status etc.

For the record all views posted under the username R0bert represent my own views and not those of any organisation I may be associated with.

R0bert

Ginx, well said on the tip thread.

I've chosen to mostly stay out of there as the name suggests a place lower than the gutter and the terms of reference seem too much like what we expect of governments (write them so that the government which started the inquiry cannot be investigated or implicated in the findings).

I'm surprised by the ongoing claim that some of us are trying to hurt the organisation PALE. If I had a desire to do that RSPCA would not be first port of call but rather those who would benefit by seeing this behaviour under PALE's name come to public attention. Whilst I have some personal concerns about how the organisation is run (allowing their name to be used as it is on these forums) I'd rather not see actions occur which harm what PALE claims to be trying to do. I've tried to suggest alternatives which isolate the organisation PALE from the personal viewpoints and behaviors of one member.

I've also tried to isolate the discussion over issues which concern me to as small a footprint as possible while still having the discussion.

My impression is that Wendy genuinely cared about what she was doing, disagreements she and I have had don't take away from that. I wonder if others at PALE really understand what the person posting in their name is saying under their banner on these threads.

Belly, sorry I didn't pick up on one of your earlier posts. I'm personally sorry to read how much you are hurting from what has been said about you. Whilst we may have differing views on some issues (especially politics) I value your interest in truth and fairness and your keeness to understand opposing viewpoints. I hope that you come out stronger as a result.

R0bert

Belly, it is awesome when we can hold differeing opinions without thinking less of the other party for doing so. Sometimes it's different means to the same end.

Another claim has been made about me at the tip. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1022#17981

"The reason is when pale first joined OLO Robert, PF,and others launched a complaint that pale was using multiple IDs and people which he claimed was a breach of OLO rules"

I don't recall being a part of any complaint to OLO about that issue. I may have suggested deletion of posts after users had been banned from the site and were showing up again under differing usernames. I don't recall if that involved anyone associated with PALE or not. My only concern with multiple ID's would be if one individual was using them to circumvent posting limits. Different people within the same organisation having different ID's is what I would expect to happen.

Graham if you are monitoring this thread please feel free to comment on my involvement or otherwise if you have that history available. I can't reference material to rebutt the latest allegation (although clear rebuttal of a number of other allegations has had no impact on whoever uses the PALE name anyway).

R0bert

Hey Belly.. sorry mate if I seemed to make light of this.. didn't realize you were feeling hurt about it....apologies.

I confess..I didn't read all the posts real close..I saw it just spiralling into a bit of a difficult mode.. what I mean't by a hoot..was that its great to see people interacting passionately.. I was not aware that feelings were really being injured here..
I thought it was just letting off steam.

Take care.
see on you the 'Is there a God' thread :)

David- Well here is somebody else thats REALLY UPSET!
Robert YOU started a thread about our posting when we first joined. It had NEVER been done before on OLO
Thats WAS to target our use of pale and IDs etc

below is just one comment that poor old Graham made after you caused everyone that upset

Now you have dragged poor old belly into it.
You know he`s a union blke and they work with their buddy codes of practise.

Antje, no-one pays to use the forum. The only people who pay to use this site are our partners like Melbourne Uni, LGAQ, Oxfam etc. and they get ownership rights as members. You can see them on the drop-down list on the home page of OLO.

No-one is stopping you posting under your own name. Just register under a new email address as Antje Struthmann, or whatever you choose, and I'll suspend the PALE one.
Posted by GrahamY, Sunday, 12 November 2006 8:12:59 PM

Anyway Robert you and a few other trouble makers look like getting your way- because I am ill through the trouble you and morgan have caused
Why dont you STOP telling everybody else what to do and leave rules to Graham.
Get a life and leave people working for animals alone.
You should be DELIGHTED I am being driven out of posting and possibly Animal Welfare!
I have never met such a bunch of nasty nit picking trouble makers !
Antje. PS nobody else HAS to use their own name so WHY should PALE
When everybody voted on how to post the last time you put up a thread about it- I WAS the ONLY one who said
We should all use our OWN names
You Robert threatend to LEAVE OLO If that happend
So who is the honest one!
Do you remember that David?
I do!

The person posting tonight as pale please take a deep breath, think the issue out.
It is clear you are rushing toward a day that sees you leave the site, no one wants that, not even you.
I can imagine your last post now, full of charges that will be untrue as they are now.
Almost as if you revel in verbal warfare you level new crimes every post so Moran is the problem now.
I am a social activist, that is what you are too, or part of what your are, why is it only part?
Australia needs to hear your views about animal welfare, we do not need the spite.
Can you not see others opinions have as much weight as yours?
That our ideas may not always be true?
Pale I am the product of my lifetime experiences we all are your posts have forever changed my view of pale.
I return to this thread time and again hoping someone at pale, maybe the other room has taken control and got back on track.
This girls night out like a few I have observed has left a by product on the footpath outside the pub.
No other description serves my view better.
Settle think breath deeply and talk in your group about outcomes it is time to settle.

I don't know why you don't all just go out and stroke a dog or something....

No real understanding of the thread in that post SPANKY go to the start read the thread.
Then come back and inform us why we should stroke that dog,
I do often skeeta my little bossy miniature foxy is still sulking in my bed, she knows I am about to go to work.
Have read the thread answer this for me, is it wrong to ask for better behavior in posts? respect? honesty?
Is it ok to defame? have you seen the reapplication of pales insult to me ten times as in caps they highlight again and again that they once claimed I was not a paid union official? seen the sarcastic sling in caps paid union official?
Out of control out of touch and nearly out of friends my view of pale.

Belly
I stayed out of ths until now. You are the one who started making the most highly personal insults. I notice if pale opens a thread about labour you have been nasty beyond any forum rules should allow.
Pale coped it and ignored you.
Now you dare the play the victim.
Thats typical a bully mentality displayed by anybody involved in any union in my opinion.
I will tell you something else too. I was around when they stopped pale members posting on this forum under pale.
I used to work in the pale office as often as I could but I had to move.
I am not posting as pale so dont bother trying to cause yet more trouble.
I will tell you something else too belly.
Nasty posts can go beyond this thread.
I was assualted days before I had my baby because of some thilthy comment put up on this thread by by somene who I see back again
The Forum SHOULD have taken it off but left it there.
I was kicked with steel cap boots and we are both lucky to be alive.
Sure I dont blame the poster for his actions but he had never done anything like that before.
Why dont you just leave these good people along. If you stop your personal insults they I am sure wont be responding with humuor.

Antje (assuming that is who is posting). I think that you have misunderstood my intentions right from the start, I'm having another go and hoping that you read this post and try and understand what I'm saying.

My principle concern with people posting under the PALE name with no other identification in the post does not leave others (including myself) with a viable means of responding to those posts without then being accused of attacking a NFP working to help animals. A charge that has been levelled at myself and others in response to posts that were clearly about your online behaviour or views on topics which have nothing to do with animal welfare. Likewise there have been veiled threats of legal action for supposedly defaming the organisation (a grossly offensive bully tactic that has no place on this forum in my view).

Pick an alias and add it to any post put up on the PALE account so that it is clear both to the person responding to your comments and other readers who's comments are being addressed.

No need for a real name or a full name if personal privacy is an issue just something that identified the posts as yours rather than the official word of the organisation PALE. As you have said elsewhere PALE has no political agenda and I assume that it has no official agenda in regard to many of the issues you post on yet disagreement with posts on those topics has led to accusations of people attacking your organisation.

I personally think the organisation would be much better served if you posted under another name so that your personal views did not appear to be those of the organisation but that really is an issue for the management of PALE, the risks associated with that particular choice are theirs. It's something that the rest of us can have opinions about but it's clearly not something I need to put much effort into.

R0bert

TarynW, it's pretty disturbing, on my first visit to this site, to read of you being physically assaulted due to someone's post. If you know who is responsible, you should report it to the authorities and also name them (real and OLO name) here so that all other members can show their disapproval. This is a site for discussion and exchange of opinions. Not for vendettas.

I hope that you are recovering from your injuries.

TurnRightThenLeft, re your post at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1022#18065

Very good suggestions. Thanks for your efforts to bring a neutral voice to the discussion and for seeking a solution that may resolve the concerns that some of us have voiced.

Frank N Stein, I share your concern if posts on this site have lead to an actual assault or of any situation where issues from this site are taken outside to harm people. I've not heard of anything like that elsewhere on the site so please don't treat that claim (or the debate which is occuring here) as typical of the site. It's a carpark because some things should be addressed away from the main areas.

Welcome and spend some time elsewhere on the site before letting opinions get to well formed.

R0bert

Belly,
To "go stroke a dog" "Take a chill pill" and all the other non-descriptive little addits I state in my posts, are called euphamasms
(hope I spelled that correctly) It means calm down, don't strain or end up with a spastic colon, "don't burst a foofey valve"

There is nothing wrong in asking for respect, the replies you recieve must not be taken out of context, unless of course, the verbal abuse is directed at you as a person.
The highlighted wording is an emphasis, similar as if you were face to face with a person, to show anger, we see as a scowl or frown or any other contorted facial feature, we percieve the highlighted words as a facial feature, which, in turn is taken as a threat.

Now stop being a woos and get back to your thread, you doddering old fart!

Just for the record,
It's strange that the other users seem to know who you are personally, judging by the comments.
This concerns me a little. Why one would go so far as stating paid or unpaid union official, has no relavance here, you see yourself as do many others here, a normal old joe using this thread, we have rights, we have perogatives, as with choices of threads to enter upon.

If I had to insult you by saying "Your mother swims after troop ships", you would be offended.

If you are offended by what a person says about what you do for a living or whether you get paid for it or not, is irrelevent, it's in the way one replies to a post, if it's nasty or against ones grain and you know it's going to create flack, then prepare for some kick-ass replies, like it or leave it, digest it and dump it, thats all.

Frank N

Welcome to OLO. Thanks for your enquies regarding my health. I am well now thanks very much. Please do not let my comment put you off OLO.
It was a long time ago and mostly OLO has very nice people posting on all sorts of topics.
I am sure if I looked back those comments would still be there but I prefer not to.
No point looking back ever.

I use my real name unlike others so yes it was upsetting at the time.
I hold myself responsible because after I argued and pleaded for the particular comment to be taken off and it wasnt I lied to my husband.
He saw it by going in and having a look for himself.
I never thought of that being stupid I guess.
Its just that when he first saw those comments about his four day old daughter up there and my personal whatevers he exploded.
It was worse than the first time he saw it because I was upset and I actually told him
He had never hit me before but he totally lost it
We could have died.
My point was sometimes people go to far with their comments without thinking about the long term results.
I am very happy here now however I do miss the friends I made at the Animal Welfare office.
I love Animals and I am very fond especially of the President who I first met as a land lady after her Dad died.
My job was to look after her Dads two pet chooks!
As soon as I saw the add I knew it was me.
That person was good to me and i support not only pale but the wonderful people who run it.
Enjoy OLO Its as I said mostly full of frendly nice people.

SPANKY this old bloke is not that old, never talk to me face to face like that, do not imagine a doddering old bloke.
Now you do not know the facts so like frank en-stein maybe you should not comment?
I could prove my point, Even have you agree but it is no going to happen.
Did you bother to read ALL of this thread?
Have you ever asked why an animal rights group would post such as red China and the ALP?
Can it be you are unaware caps is shouting? to put an insult in caps is to insult with intent?
And SPANKY are you still in school? your posts have little substance no real thought train can be found is your self confidence misplaced?
Do you think pales posts are always ok?
Have you any idea how a post here could convert to a thuggish spouse kicking his partner?
Would anyone here not step in between and stop it?
Is it other than that wise at this distance to get further involved? on what evidence?
I will not stop the feeling those who post here as pale, and those who under other names say they are pale members leave much to be proved.
The claims that I insult pale in other threads is sometime true in defense of my self.
No one however insults pale as much as pale and its friends.
Settle pale ,test me, spend an hour re reading pales posts, then mine, then ROberts.
SPANKY just a thought read you own every one of them, it may be well worth while.

SPANKY/Gday
Please allow me to answer bellys questions- `in part`.
belly said
"Have you ever asked why an animal rights group would post such as red China and the ALP?"

PALE replies
Your utter stupidity and ignorance never fails to amaze me.
Not only pale but all Animal Welfare groups oppose the Live Animal Exports from Australia.
Do you know what exports are belly? China is taking enourmous amounts of our Animals Alive! - and you come in here and make a complete fool of yourself " yet Again" and ask what China has to do with the ALP.?
Do you know what trade tariffs are belly?
The cruel Live Export Trade To China is economic dead end for Australia.

ALP Labour AMIEU strongly opposes the trade which sends our animals off to unbeliable cruelties and raw materials and jobs along with it.

Here are belly Read some of the labour unions comments on export of live animals to China and elsewhere.

http://wa.amieu.asn.au/pages.php?recid=52
I strongly encourage you to read what other ALPunion blokes have been doing for years!- Which is to stand shoulder to shoulder with dozens of Animal Welfare groups holding rallies and protests about live exports.
Now I understand your problem. You really are that ignorant about politics arn`t you? Most kids know that China take live animals along with some others such as ME.[ Thats the midle East] to you belly.
China live exports are our AMIEU jobs to the slaughter. China Exports of Live Animals is eroding the foundation of value adding and other Industries.

I am clearly waisting my time if I have to explain what the connection is with China and ALP.
Only as fool would waiste any more time with your emabarresing rants.
We have some good buddies in AMIEU Unions belly. They would be horrified to see you trying to stop any animal groups from protesting live exports to China or Anywhere else.

Kevin Rudd would have a "fit if he saw your ignorance under the name of ALP Union."!

Over to you Spanky.

Belly, Belly, Belly,....
When, if ever, are you going to learn, you have just gone and done the exact of what I was talking about, you seem to be p*ssed off with everyone! Remember when I said "read it, take it in and then dump it"...Well...er... cheers!

ok SPANKY fair cop I may have gone of half cocked at you, but please understand I am no old bloke no little old fella.
My attempts believe it or not to help pale get control are real.
And the sometimes idiotic slings are not debate but aimed to insult, do I understand exports?
And I am expected to fall on the floor in raptures that the meat industry workers union talks to pale?
Yesterday the person posting here as pale, I sat at a table with a left wing warrior from that union Kath is nothing less than a warrior and a legend.
We do not share many views, she from the left me from the right of Labor/Union politics.
She highlighted the criminal actions of meat industry owners and this government in killing places all over Australia.
I felt proud of her passion, it is the common fuel unionist use.
I shared her view here on miss use of imported labour.
I do not share the view meat exports can ever totally replace live exports, I wounder why we never hear about the awful sight of watching cattle wait in line to die by any means at these killing houses?
I know they know as they wait and see the fear.
Pale in your thread ,not this one I offer you a way out of this large hole, think about it.
Forgive me this, I try so hard for so long to resolve issues but long ago I past my point of no return only extraordinary acts of repentance can convince me your group wants an end to this insulting diatribe.
It is pale, no one else who can stop this.

Belly
Thanks for the conformation that you are trying to stop pale speaking out about the cruelty of live exports.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

Your concern for mis use of skilled labour coming into Australia is some what questionable.

Considering the Meat trade is the ONLY trade not allowed to bring in skilled workers it should be clear to even you they are being targetted.

There are thousands of other skilled workers enerting the country just in case you had not noticed.
When Saudi Arabia ban on exports came into place some years ago the exports of chilled meat carasses more than tripled.

That is just one significant examplethat destroys the argument that we cant keep our own jobs here.

The debete over the barbaric live Animal Export trade on Australian ground is very one sided, fuled by the lobbysists for the trade.
Trade unions have consistently raised a more critical perspective of live exports.

The ALP Unions have also pointed out over the years the the closure of local abattoirs and the subseqeuent sacking of hundred and hundreds of employees have sent many a working man to the wall .

If we were simply concerned to selling the raw material to the highest bidder then live exports would deserve full support.

However the RSPCA and other Animal Welfare organisations both in Australia and world wide have long spoken out about the barbaric treatment of our Australian farm animals which benefits just a few.

The ALP Trade Unions AMIEU however have pointed out for years that the focus should be on
* Promoting value - adding opportunities within Australia.
* Increasing levels ofemployment , particually within regional areas
* Maximing the number of parties participating and benefiting from value adding.

Beyond the Umbrella and from behind the veil of the cruel live animal export trade of the industry`s protection and self promotion "lies a very different picture."

Whatever you choose to do be assured you will not control block pale from supporting of the AMIUE and RSPCA.

Apart from what has become normal for pale, the deliberate lie that I am trying to stop pale the post was ok.
It should however be noted the meat employees union yesterday addressed a group I was part of.
Very concerning claims made by that union, ones I believe, are that while skilled workers came in from over seas they in fact filled laboring jobs, not skilled.
The little warrior from that union told of up to 6 people being placed in one house AND EACH CHARGED THE FULL RENTAL eg rent to employers was $250 for house employer charged each person? full amount!
As is my right I sickened by lies threats and just plain rudeness from some in the apparently large group posting as pale.
Will not again EVER answer that groups posts or insults , my opinion of the group is sadly fixed forever ,just not worth hearing or talking to.

Belly
You come across as the victim accusing our organisation of making insults to you!
Thats rich.
belly said-
can we take the group known as pale on face value?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:20:32 PM
PALE REPLIES
Sure we can belly- Your own words>

your age and lack of education,or just the view of a very bitter old lady? miss spell posts are always worth a read.
Is it pale the group[ all 3 of you]or this poster who is so out of touch with Australia?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:15:59 PM
I AM A PAID TRADE UNION OFFICIAL.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:15:59 PM

Now that said I will not try to explain everything about live exports to you.
Its nice you went to a meeeting but unlike some that follow like sheep others sit down and do the research.
Its as I said "more than questionable" that "only meat workers "have been stopped from entering this country. No concern for others!

Even you should know we have thousands in all sorts of industries being brought to Australia.
If you look at our Web page you will see not one but two top AMIEU X Federal leaders.

One who was the Federal Leader of the AMIEU and involved for thirty five years and hes an advisor to us!.

Scroll down and you will see Ross Richerson sitting with myself and others. Hes the big tall bloke on the left.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
Russle Carr took over as Federal Leader from there- Take a look at the petition on their web site Belly. Its PALES petition!
http://www.amieu.asn.au/

Sure we know certain people were told to "back off live exports-" but your little guys at meeting are being lied to and conned
We will debate Rudd anytime he likes.
I keep telling you we are not the enermy of ALP AMIEU People but friends!

PALE:"Even you should know we have thousands in all sorts of industries being brought to Australia.
If you look at our Web page you will see not one but two top AMIEU X Federal leaders.

One who was the Federal Leader of the AMIEU and involved for thirty five years and hes an advisor to us!.

Scroll down and you will see Ross Richerson sitting with myself and others. Hes the big tall bloke on the left."

And do you think that your efforts here on OLO are making them proud of their association with your group? As I've said elsewhere, the carry-on you seem determined to perpetuate here does nothing except expose your group to ridicule as a bunch of ineffectual socialising amateurs. Is that the view of your group you are trying to foster?

Note, there are 2 questions in that post, I doubt I'll get a response, but one lives in hope.

Anteseptic regards, your posts seek answers you will not get balance and truth in a place it does not exist.
Kath Evans, a warrior and a legend in NSW and that union ,for more years than some would like to know decades.
She [see the reference above in the last post from fantasy land], far from miss informed us.
I am no longer in debate or talking in any way with the group posting as pale or as its friends.
It has past the point of no return, it is paddling in the mud to do so.
I imagine nothing, the barbs and taunts are real and in nearly every post humor? only by mistake but funny.
ALP? can it be some one thinks robust debate leaves scars? who truly cares about other views on politics? not me my sparring partner Tapp, thanks for that little deed mate, are the worst two offenders here yet I feel nothing more than sorrow for him no anger.
The poorly constructed view that only other are wrong, the insulting turn around in views about RObert in the tip shop thread?
A symptom of something else
I will continue to visit the thread to keep pace with the one sided rants, will talk to some in that union about the rants maybe give them an up to date copy, but it should not be needed.
If pale would only review its own actions here as hard as it looks at others.

Robert
However well intended - your idea of car park taking it outside or which ever you want to term it. I think you should re think it.
You can surley see now this threads are used as a hate place for people to attack one organisation or one person which ever the case may be.
While we understand that probably was not `your` intent I suggest you realise that is what its turned into.
This little man that has a huge problem with woman by reading a quick couple of posts is flaming.
Fair enough if belly wishes to continue because belly was involved from the start.

I hope you will consider this yourself and speak with OLO.
We dont worry about too much Robert but outsiders coming in flaming that have no history in the matter have to be stopped.

Possibly he thinks its some sort of mis guided loyalty because I see he is an old poster friend of yours.
By the way- may I enquire what was on that add that you were complaing about?
The one where you said the bank was promoting violence to men from women.
I know its off post to this topic but you said you started car parks to discuss things outside.

What actually was shown on that add? Which bank?

So Robert that aside either you as the public keeper contact OLO about this guy "flaming" or we shall.

I take it that was aimed at me? If you have a problem with my questions, may I suggest you address some them? As a concerned taxpayer and an individual opposed to the live animal export trade, I'm frankly appalled at the poor judgement your organisation is showing on this forum, not to mention your attempted "controlling" behaviour and snide remarks, aimed at somehow discrediting me because I asked for a genuine opinion on an opinion forum. Your behaviour is so sub-standard, I am very tempted to ask for a review of your tax-exempt status, as I believe you, as an organisation, are abusing that privilege here on this forum by allowing use of a resource (your computers and internet connection) for a purpose unrelated to your organisation's purpose.

Now, about those questions...

Antiseptic do not concern your self truly you have done nothing wrong, or has RObert.
Let us remember those questions you ask are the back bone of this thread and that questions about behavior still unanswered but clearly still a concern.
I with every instinct think many more than one have posted as pale just in this thread, and others.
And believe most who are in fact pale supporters would be appalled if they read this thread, not by your behavior or mine but by those posing as people who care about animal welfare.
It concerns me ,the constant refocusing of the attack zone, the very real concerns given here .
Pale now having unleashed dreadful insulting diatribes against RObert now call on him to lead the forum to dry ground.
In the defensive thread stated by pale tip shop? the say they will no longer talk to him then ,well read it your self.
We must confront some seeming facts, those posting as pale post miss truths , bizarre political views, claim closer relationships with some than they have.
But seem not in control of themselves.
The childish theme that I have found God after starting a thread is there a God is nearly insane, yet it is called funny?
In time ,one day here in these threads, some one from pale other than this group we see will come hat in hand to say sorry.
It will take place it must take place, in my home I never let visitors touch my PC after all it remains my duty to not let the kids play in such forums.
I again invite readers to get a cool drink sit down and read as many of pales posts as you can, a rewarding afternoon if you like a laugh but just a bit concerning too.
We at least should never forget cruelty to animals is never acceptable I forever and ever will remember the fear in the eyes of animals waiting in line to die for processing, I however do eat meat without doubt.

Belly
Poor -Kath Evans. Do you have to throw peoples names around?

Can’t you post your opinions without saying names eg. –
“I am a paid union official”?
Belly said-
Your age and lack of education, or just the view of a very bitter old lady? Miss spell posts are always worth a read.
Is it pale the group [all 3 of you] or this poster who is so out of touch with Australia?

I AM A PAID TRADE UNION OFFICIAL.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:15:59 PM

How dare you condemn the Independent Tapp when he isn’t here to defend himself?

That’s the act of a coward and a bully yet again. Unions have a bad name for just that.

I mean sure if you want to go ahead. It works works for us!

Kevin Rudd’s in QLD like PALE- “Desperate’ to make the public ‘think” ALP have changed .
No more loud mouths or rudeness. Then comes you belly
I put it to you belly that PALE are not going to be told or bullied into changing our posts on OLO by a paid ALP union official “or anybody else.”

Go off and start your own little group to help the animals.

Graham Young addressed Roberts’s concerns. I said if it continues I will complain to him.
So Robert how about now taking some responsibility for your ideas - Or do you opposes Graham young too?

If Kath Young and yourself advertise intra fighting in ALP and oppose what’s on the AMIEU web page against Federal Leaders that’s your choices..

Kevin Rudd may even order the PALE petition off the web site that`s been there for years.
`“Now that would be interesting”`- and beyond the PALE-

Which is a favourite saying of Kevin Rudd’s- Mind you I haven’t heard him say it for a while.

Be our guest because Cruelty of Live Animal Exports and sending Australia’s raw materials to China and elsewhere with those jobs in their most valuable form ‘should be in the stop light” and you can bet PALE "will keep it there"!

All, I've responded to PALE on her thread. I'm of the view that pretty much everything that needs to be said has been said often enough for there to be little point in continuing to restate this stuff.

If I understood a post made under the PALE name the organisation has consider suggestions made by TurnRightThenLeft but chosen to accept the risks associated with private views being posted under their name without disclaimer or identification of who's views are represented. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1022#18079

I've said that if PALE stops attacks against me I'd prefer to leave the matter be at this point. I can in good faith repond to posts under PALES name knowing that I've taken reasonable steps to try and avoid the situation where their animal welfare work is harmed by the use of that name.

PALE, if it's the post I'm thinking of the opening post is http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=863#14814

R0bert

Just in that post the one two places above my concerns about pale are highlighted by pale.
See my mention of the name Kath Evans? see pale turn it in uncontrolled rage into Kath Young?
Understand in a post above that IT WAS PALE who first used the name of an official of that union?
Is it not clear my meeting on Friday ,the one Kath the little warrior of her union gave us information that clearly clashed with pales was the reason I repeated it.
I take no pleasure in the thread, hunt in the reply thread for my idea to resolve this issue.
It was wasted time pales has not changed one thing that started this thread and the other.
EACH POST PROVES THE CONCERNS IN POST ONE HERE REMAIN A CONCERN.
Eccentricity is not the problem.
Failure to understand others have views is a symptom not the problem.
School yard bullying and threats to tell teacher are another symptom.
It is true that no good can come from this thread ,no good will exists on the pale side of the debate.
I have thought long on this maybe the thread and its answer should be deleted, just maybe we should all stop answering the rudeness ,but nothing will be resolved by those actions.
I will not again answer pale ever but will return to defend myself
RObert our views are indeed different but you are right rudeness is not my habit.
Pales conduct is of concern, ongoing insults unneeded unprovoked and concerning.
Good must never leave the battle field to such as pale, pale here is attempting to stop free speech and ideas other than that groups, the tools include constant threats to tell site owners and constant entrenched rudeness.
Refusal to see the truth and much more.

Robert

What insults Show Us?

Robert said
"If I see you dealing with others using consistent courtesy and copping abuse in response I'll happily stick my two cents worth in.'
Robert0-What about Morgans.? Not one word from you!

Palerelpies
Show ‘one example’ we abused somebody that was NOT in response to a personal attacks.

Pale responded to “absolute insults’, normally with humour ?yet" `you` never said `one word.`

Actually you`v encouraged him.

Belly said-
can we take the group known as pale on face value?
your age and lack of education, or just the view of a very bitter old lady? Miss spell posts are always worth a read.
Is it pale the group [all 3 of you] or this poster who is so out of touch with Australia?
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 8 September 2007 6:15:59 PM
I AM A PAID TRADE UNION OFFICIAL.

This is the’ second time” you opened these threads about ‘which name” we post under.
Who are you?
Are your motives political?

You refused to use use their REAL names.

You threated to leave! WE put our names and pictures up. Huge difference in being honest and open.

We obey Graham Young – not anybody else.

Please give him some peace.

Not trying to offend. “Please see it through our eyes.”

That thread was put up by ‘you’ to discuss how pale is lodged with OLO. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

After your first car park one person landed in hospital. Lawyers and so forth.

WE are NOT holding you responsibly for others actions.

We ARE questioning "if these car parks actually work?

It seems to me they promote more trouble.

I am also concerned at what effect it has on OLO itself.

OLO it `supposed to be a political forum.`

WE `honestly feel` it’s lowering the standard.

Robert you can’t run others lives.


PALE`S happy for it to continue other than being concerned for Graham’s business.

Considering the `SILENCE` by other groups before an election-

Even Pales posts of humour in response to `personal attacks` keeps

the CRUELTY Of LIVE EXPORTS in the 'publics eye`~.

What on earth did all that mean in English?

We humans are weak, we even ask ourselves why but if in a city street a person who we know has mental flaws comes it sight we look the other way.
A short Gday would do us no harm but we look the other way.
Just sometimes a keeper comes along takes the person in hand and says sorry.
At such time we say a quite good day and walk on by, now is that time.
Without a keeper appearing we will gain nothing.

Belly...Well said.

Hello Belly

It seems a simple sorry

Is that sorry for hiding a peadophile
Is that sorry for hiding sexual assualts and physical assualts

I dont think so.

Labor saying sorry Belly.
The unions support labor do they not.
If somebody supports or hides people like labor are they not an accomplace.

Nowing but not standing up for the workers and their families or is it the families of workers do not count.

With regards to PALE how about you try something right, ask them the questions that need to be answered.

How will you save jobs. Never seen this question before

How will this serve communities to get the meat works up and running again.

These are questions you should be asking Belly and others.

Not some pathetic kangaroo court to get your own back, as pale have said something you didnt like.

Belly you call yourself a union man well start acting like one and stand up for you workers and their families.
Ask the real questions, supply the real answers.

I had tried asking Greg Combet some real questions but his only aswer was walking away and sending out the heavies.

Oh and another thing

Have a nice day.

Stuart Ulrich
Independent Candidate for Charlton

PALE plenty in that post but the only way for this to stop is for us of us to actually stop.

If you really want this to continue let me know but for the most part I think pretty much everything I would write in response to your post has already been said.

I'll leave it be at that.

R0bert

Belly.

Pale mentioned Federal and x Federal leaders because it’s public knowledge
We have had an association with them for years. You can see them on our web site and visa versa.
Rudds not worried about skilled workers being underpaid belly!

They are breaking their necks to come given they are paid far more!

If Howard and Rudd were serious about protecting overseas workers wages and conditions why just meat workers?

I think Taps suggestion about working to find solutions instead of flying off the handle is a good one.
It is a uniquely tricky industry full of scoundrels and very savvy people with no moral standards
I am sure I could never debate you on your job I wouldn’t have a clue but please believe me we know about live exports.
What has made it difficult is you for some reason take it personally when we highlight our thoughts on labour.
Without even realising it you have been unfair complaing about pale commenting in the ALP China thread. I think you actually believed we came in there just to have a dig at you.
I hope you` now understand `that is not the case.

Pale have bigger fish to fry and I will make no bones that Howard, Rudd and the Nationals have betrayed our farmers and the Australian people.
A dramatic urgent reassessment of Australian live Export is needed.
Australia requires a strong honourable far sighted and brave political leader
.
Not just one but many.

A party that will stand up to the powerful lobbies of vested interests.
There is plenty of evidence of market distortions, in particular in tariffs.

There are barriers in non transparent subsides.

Even the live exporters themselves agree the value of the trade is not the product itself but market distortion in tariff and non tariff barriers.

Pale wishes you happines.

We wish work without people taking it personally.

We say to Howard and Rudd

Not Good Enough!

And so it ends, as I said in my last post in the thread that rebuts this one this is my last post in this thread.
Strangely while the thread did not seem to get a conclusion it indeed did!
The evidence that the questions posed here had substance is in pales posts, every one of them.
Just go back to the start read every post, see me at times get a little bit out of my skin.
But while most of us understand the term shouting, here we have learned about screaming, full on blind miss directed rage.
Refusal to even begin to see other have a right to contrary views.
From sugar sweet near crawling to some of us only to see those feelings reversed to open uncontrolled rage.
I like every one can be wrong, but it is my view we are in this thread and the other debating a tag team from pale under that banner.
This may not be against forum rules but it should be , how can we settle issues if we do not even know who we are talking to?
I will not now or ever converse with those posting as pale.
It is clearly a one sided conversation and not worth the effort
Regards all

Tapp
Thank you for your sensible suggestion.
Perhaps we can open a thread to post ideas for alternatives to the cruel Live Exports Trade.
Until this is sorted I fear there is little point because they will disrupt that thread as well.

TAPP to this alligation pale has misused forum rules pale would appreciate your sticking on this thread.

We agree with belly we can not discuss allegations of child abuse here. Roberts’s hard efforts will be lost.
Pale is keen to clear those allegations.
Let’s not cross purpose this thread because it will be shut down by OLO staff.

Pale will participate in your other thread.
One of the helpers has some knowledge of past QLD Enquires...

To be fair I am not sure belly would know much about the matter you raised.

Why not open a thread asks Mr Rudd. Just a suggestion. ?

Also Tap - `We don’t see belly’s post above being an apology. Is it belly?

We thought it was at first. We even wrote a little poem about a union bloke called belly we thought he would like.
It was pales way of saying – No hard feeling belly.

Then after a re read some thought it seemed to be at crack at their mental health which has been raised before.

So please tell us belly was that I’m sorry? Because judging by your posts on the other thread we are not getting that message.

There have been many claims that pale have miss used the forum rules.

Pale has never done so knowingly but there was some confusion which Graham Young sorted that out eighteen months ago.
Pale has a motto
There is nothing wrong with a person bar their intention

So if the intention for opening this thread about pale was for good

I am sure that will be displayed here.

I am sure Robert will stay in his own thread to assist pale as he has pointed out `that was – his intention.`

David Boaz We thank You for your good `intentions.`

PALE, can you make up your mind please. In one post you have made it clear that PALE has considered the suggestions made and rejected them and that further continuation of the matter will be considered harrassment and now you seem to want selected portions of the discussion kept going because they are convenient to you.

As you said elsewhere you know that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I've said that I'm happy to discontinue this discussion. Continued picking at me because I'm not all upset at other posters for giving you some of your own back is hardly going to carry much weight.

I'd suggest that if you don't want this to continue that you stop trying to have it continue. I have no interest in taking other posters to task for giving you a hard time at the moment because of your recent posting behaviour. Live by the sword, die by the sword as they say.

R0bert

Robert -

We are deeply concerned and confused you see any attempt to do defend ourselves an attack on you.

How extraordinary.

You` opened this thread to raised serious issues against pale.

Are we not allowed now to defend ourselves?

That is extremely unfair! and a bit rich playing the victim surely.

If it is to be believed the reason you opened this thread was great great “concern about pale miss using forum rules?

You claimed it was done to help pale””?

Yes we did say that the matter regarding your alleged case of Antje`s miss- using forum rules has been dealt with.

That never meant we didn’t reserve the right to respond to other allegations.

Let’s start at the beginning - Your first post shall we?

Robert said-
Refer to a post supposedly by the CEO of PALE under the account normally operated by Antje - http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=874#17174

--
Robert you were upset because you “thought” Antje allowed the CEO to type that message- and to you that’s a breach of forum rules.

Or perhaps that wasn’t the only reason. Does seem rather petty doesn’t it?

What you “didn’t inform others of was pale CEO was responding to ongoing abuse and insults.

You left that bit out!

You went one step further by encouraging this same offender -and also we feel there were posts quietly urging on poor old belly.

We intend to put those comments up left out that the CEO responded to.

Perhaps something other than this concerning you.

We actually Respect belly because he’s a straight up fair dinky bloke, take him or leave him. He wears his heart on his shirt.

Pale asks other posters to read some of the posts addressed to us that ` we` are going to put up.
Please be decent enough to allow us to respond to allegations on this thread.

Possibly there was another reason the pale car park was started.

We ask other posters to another us three futher posts then by all means jump in.

How about a fair go allowing us to respond to this thread

Please.

I agree with R0bert and Belly. PALE has been given enough oxygen in this and other threads - obviously trying to reason with them/her/him/it only encourages them to post more self-obsessed nonsense, so I for one am drawing a line under this thread and the tit-for-tat one started by PALE.

I suggest everybody does the same, and they/s/he/it will eventually get bored with posting nonsense to them/him/her/itself.

Here is the line:

________________________________________________________________

` Morgan `

Interesting you want to stop now. Of course “you knew “where this was going didn’t you!.

You`v no right to stop somebody else’s thread.

My name is Antje Struthmann and I have already explained I am German born but do the best I can with spelling and English.

That didn’t stop you though did it?

I do not know what you think I have done other than respond to constant abuse from yourself and others.
Here`s just some-of the posts I responded to>


Morgan Said PALE your Crazy mad ARNT YOU?

Yes, it's really great PR for 'People against Live Exports and Coherent English'.

Posted by CJ Morgan,

This other person is very much in bridge of OLO rules"

What on earth does this mean, and why do both 'PALE’ and 'TarynW' use the same malapropism?

This being "in bridge" has featured prominently in posts from PALE members recently - but what are they talking about?

They might of course mean 'in breach', but that would be a curious coincidence.

Interestingly, their website (http://www.livexports.com/) says:

"Antje Struthmann

Known as the Marsupial Whisperer, Antje is the CEO of PALE and a close friend too all animals."

Hilarious,
Posted by CJ Morgan,


PALE. this thread's about Boazy's OBSESSION with vilifying Islam. It's not about your appalling manners and diction, and neither is it about animal welfare.
CJ Morgan,


"Stop bringing in lebs and Asians!"

NO TABBOULEH! NO SUSHI!

Clearly, the answer to knife attacks is to issue everybody with a gun. And to ban immigration of 'lebs and Asians'.
Posted by CJ Morgan,

PALE ~ You're a moron. Racist pig. Get back to saving cows. You've got ZERO idea, and if you're the quality of Hansons support, thank christ that scrag won't make it past the hick bandwagon.
Posted by StG,


Robert.

I dont wish want to keep posting these types things on internet.
I question your reasons opening this thread on a minor complaint
You overlooked all the above and much more .I think you were angry because you didn’t like something Taryn said

Ok,
So now we have racists, plebs, incoherant and coherant, it's and thats, he's and she's, know-all's, professors, anti-christs and still we divert from the initial thread of "a PALE carpark"

I think I will gracefully bow-out of this one, there are way too many people about to get hurt, what with the racism thing going on, I don't know why this ugly word had to even come into it, but it did.

Cheers guys, see you in the next thread.

Spanky

Spanky

Your correct. I have upset you. I apoligise.


I was finally felt forced to to display what I see as hypocracy. Robert KNEW these comments were made at us.,

To the other posters-

On your thread Robert that you "claim to have put up to assist pale"?

So far we have threats to contact people who partly fund pale to cause trouble with the intention of having those funds stopped and disunity.

Our funding details. Thats our funder and our President and others.

Her faimly operate a international business.
She also owns an investigation company.

Robert you did not open this car park aimed at pale "to assist at all."!
The evidenve was not balanced and fairness was absent in your first post.
Also the abuse thown at pale you have sat back and said not one word.
"Yet you claim you wanted to help us".

I also have a message for you from our President.

To Robert
PLEASE STOP NOW AND THINK OF OLO IF NOTHING ELSE EVERYBODY
+= Robert next time anybody wants to shave an enquiry get somebody with experience.

You have left a trail of evidence that you have taken a one sided approach to our organisation in its attempts to defend itself.

" This started simply because somebody said Robert you cant run other peoples lives."

However what people "say" and do "does" effect their lives.

Any loss of funding due to threats on your thread will be treated seriously and responded to.

Likewise for damages directed at those persons or person who did take place act in any manner said verbally or in writing or contact made by that person or persons in carrying out a threat to act for the purpose of damaging or doing damage to a personal or orgnisation.

I put it to you that the pretence of being concered about who used the computer was disingenuous.

PLEASE "think of the Animals" and allow Antje to carrry on with her tireless efforts for the Animals.

Spoken by Wendy Lewthwaite
Typed by Antje Struthman

PALE:
"Her faimly operate a international business.
She also owns an investigation company."

Which fact has been repeatedly broadcast on these forums to no apparent purpose other than self-promotion. Is your use of it now intended to intimidate me into shutting up?

PALE:
"Likewise for damages directed at those persons or person who did take place act in any manner said verbally or in writing or contact made by that person or persons in carrying out a threat to act for the purpose of damaging or doing damage to a personal or orgnisation."

Threats, again?

How on Earth could your organisation be damaged by a review of your use of tax-exempt supplies unless you have a case to answer? You're very quick to chime in with pseudo-legal "warnings", Ms Lewthwaite, yet strangely reluctant to do anything at all to offer an answer to simple questions that would clear the whole thing up. Why would that be?

I'm sorry, I missed this:

PALE:
"PLEASE "think of the Animals" and allow Antje to carrry on with her tireless efforts for the Animals."

As has been stated repeatedly, I'm a supporter of your efforts with the live export trade. It's your forays into other areas that have no bearing on that purpose that I object to. I've stated that clearly and succinctly before and it was the original reason for the carpark as I read the first post.

Antiseptic

If your really ~interested to help stop live exports” your welcome to email us on our site.
We will try to supply you with a small amount of funding to get you going yourself or start another group if you choose to.

If you would care to start your own thread on live Exports or Animal Welfare we would certainly support it.

We responded to questions asked in regards to funding and nothing more.

The questions been “consistently pursued “ how pale funds their work?


Graham Young has already posted a comment to Robert about how we use OLO.

The President also has reminded people` personal responsibilities`.

It is a `privilege` to post here and I wish people would respect that.

I feared you have come into this thread to flame.
In almost two years you have take not shown interest in Animal Welfare.
Nor were you involved in back ground of this thread.
I can’t see posts or threads you have opened on Animal Welfare.
Perhaps however I am incorrect.

In fact the only connection we can see seems your friendship with Robert.

I pointed out earlier when you chose to come into this thread flaming that there was a clear connection between domestic violence and cruelty to Animals.

Report from the RSPCA which addresses this-
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1949318.htm

If you care about Animals may I suggest Sir you stop your flaming.

Please leave the good people of pale who give up their time to also try to assist animals in peace.

I have never had a connection to you regarding this topic Robert has opened on this thread

I am also very busy !

The only other connection apart from domestic violence and Animal cruelty is possibly your support for Robert.

In hind sight I don’t think you have done him any favors and perhaps I find your interest in our organization just a tad disingenuous.

That seem to be the only connection but I hope you prove me wrong.

Don’t go and kick the dog now will you.

This will be our last post.

We think we should follow the sensible steps made by SPARKY
and walk away. We wont be back to read comments .
In hindsight perhaps we should not have tried so hard to defend ourselves.
Our only excuse is I guess we are only human and lack the forgivness of our wonderful Animal Kingdom.

We sincerly wish everybody well.

PALE: "If your really ~interested to help stop live exports” your welcome to email us on our site.
We will try to supply you with a small amount of funding to get you going yourself or start another group if you choose to.

If you would care to start your own thread on live Exports or Animal Welfare we would certainly support it."

I have no time nor the inclination to either start such a group or to take part in an existing one's activities. I am quite happy for those with such time and inclination to do so. Perhaps that will change in the future.

One thing that I have taken from this little encounter is that there is obviously little to differentiate the way activist groups such as PALE deal with dissent from the way their large corporate "targets" do it. The approach appears to be:
1. Attempt to discredit by smearing
2. Threaten with personal consequences and legal action
3. Offer bribe or incentive to drop the matter.

Not a very edifying display from PALE at all.

PALE: "We responded to questions asked in regards to funding and nothing more.
"

Actually, you failed to respond at all, but I don't mind too much, my intent was to make you think about the consequences of allowing the collective handle to be abused, which, as you are no doubt now realising, can be serious. Let's leave it at that.

Atiseptic
I said I would not respond anymore but good people who give up their busy time to help Animals are upset at being called mongrels.

Several of them are busy lawyers who proudly have their real names up there for all to see. Thats not a theat its a fact.

This is a case of I am dammed if I do and dammed if I dont answer the question purposely raised by Robert knowing full well we were unable to respond to them.
To respond to these question would take us back to the original complain made by Robert claiming we broke OLO rules.

We had only just joined OLO a members and we were told to take off the persons name we had been posting under and re register as pale.

We did this and the web master spoke direct with Graham Young and followed indtructions.

I dont know much about computers myself but probably because there are five or six computers the old tag came up as well. graham wasnt to know that either.

Robert drew this to the attention of OLO and we were banned. We have only just paid eleven hundred dollars hours earlier and it caused a HUGE upset with our members.

I think it was just a misunderstanding but of course pale wrote to OLO furious.
We were banned.
Several Months later Graham said Antje could post as PALE but ONLY! if this was never brought up on this forum again!

Robert knew this but still raised the subject of our tag!

That is why we have not responded!

We may be banned now for speaking the truth and answering your questions;.

Which I beleive was the whole aim behind the excersise. Robert KNEW! - Hes the one that caused the tag issue in the first place. He knew we could not repond!

PALE WILL NOT! BE CHANGING ITS TAG.
WE JOINED AS MEMBERS AND ANTJE POSTS> SOMETIMES MEMBERS SEND EMAILS WITH COMMENTS TO POST.
THATS NOT BREAKING RULES -
Enough of your games Robert
You cant run other peoples lives- or OLO!

I will leave you now with Roberts last words to us.-

"Live by the sword, die by the sword as they say."

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 17 September 2007 1:39:52 PM

PALE: "To respond to these question would take us back to the original complain made by Robert claiming we broke OLO rules."

Do you read what is written before responding? I am not referring to Robert's question, I am referring to my own 3 questions. Why do you keep bringing this back to Robert? It was your behaviour in response to Robert's questions that got my back up and prompted my own, broader set.

My questions and their context make it very clear that I have tried to get across to you the fact that you are foolishly allowing your name to be used in a way that brings it into disrepute and may well be in breach of the guidelines under which you claim tax-exemption. A sensible response to that would be to say "thank you for pointing that out" and work out a way to fix the problem.

Why do you find this either threatening or difficult? After all, you were prepared to pay me to stop bothering you - use the money to fix the problem instead, perhaps?

PALE: "PALE WILL NOT! BE CHANGING ITS TAG.
WE JOINED AS MEMBERS AND ANTJE POSTS> SOMETIMES MEMBERS SEND EMAILS WITH COMMENTS TO POST.
THATS NOT BREAKING RULES -"

Noone is suggesting PALE should not post here, merely that the corporate name should be reserved for topics for which it has a charter. My own advice would be to appoint a corporate spokesperson and to treat postings under the PALE handle as press releases. If individuals who happen to belong to PALE wish to comment on unrelated topics, they should use a unique handle.
It is also usually regarded as polite to provide attribution if quoting someone else's opinion or question. Just a thought.

Anti Septic


This post has been copied by Antje from a word doc to ensure the original rules set out by OLO are protected.

You have no history with us and I find your posts are flaming.

Thank you for your suggestions and those along this thread will be raised at our next meeting.

We are not a huge group so your ideas of paying corp people just to post olo are unreaslistic.

The offer of a small amount of funds just in case you were sincere were from myself personally and certainly not a pay off.

We never run from a problem and I think you will find most groups are silent because of the new law.

Nor are we in great fear of loosing tax decuctions because under the new laws if groups protest live exports they loose it anyway.

We have no intention of not protesting live exports so clearly its not our first concern.

I am going to make a comment about this thread considering everybody else has been doing so.

If you look up you will all see Graham Young has told Robert that we have not broken forum rules.

That would confirm that this thread was defamatory to us in the first place.

It suggests we broke forum rules which implies were are cheats or liers-dishonest.

In my opinion it should never have gone up. It is in fact untrue. This was confirmed by Graham. So clearly it defames us.

I see posts all over the forum calling us racist pigs and worse.

I see they are still up. In fact all over the forum. Then you people have the nerve to tell me your concerned for the group.

I see one lady posted in another thread that olo should have dealt with these posts that were very offensive to us.

I note her kind fair post was removed.

I have of course copied all comments on olo including this one.

Just in case its again the only one to be removed out of these discusting comments.

RObert,
I think I must go and hook myself up to one of my machines, place a couple of thingamabobs on my head, turn on the doo-hicky and casually frassle my brain, for even attempting to re-enter this thread, but with all the comments being fired at you, it's kind of hard to let you take all these kick-@ss comments alone, so I'll wallow on the side lines to see what happens next.

I must admit, I don't know much about some of the issues flying around in here and find some issues I find, are not even close to what originally started this thread off.

PALE: "Thank you for your suggestions and those along this thread will be raised at our next meeting."

Feel free to do so. I hope you present them as they are intended and don't portray them as an assault on PALE.

PALE: "We are not a huge group so your ideas of paying corp people just to post olo are unreaslistic."

Why do you need to pay someone? Surely one of your members is able to vet press-releases? My suggestion was that you should nominate such a person as your "spokesperson" and so ensure you don't have things being released in the group name that could be to the group's disadvantage.

In my view there were 3 things wrong with the offer to pay me:
1. It smacks of a pay off, particularly as you had already attempted a smear which didn't work and then threats, which also didn't work.
2. It was made to silence my own dissent, which was directed at your own organisation.
3. It sought to create yet another "group" of people opposed to the mistreatment of animals, further fragmenting and diluting the field.As you mentioned in the Tassie Exports thread, the field is already badly fragmented, with many groups who "don't talk to each other". The effect of that can only be to weaken the strength of the response to the trade.

PALE:"Nor are we in great fear of loosing tax decuctions because under the new laws if groups protest live exports they loose it anyway."

And your evidence for that is...? May I suggest that if your group is in danger of losing tax-exempt status it is more to do with your activities that are unrelated to the charter of the group? I have noted that you are very quick to claim persecution on this forum whenever a post is removed, yet you continually launch personal attacks on those who disagree with you. Perhaps the 2 are not unrelated?

I wish you well with your next meeting and hope that your members find my suggestions useful.

The question of course people will ask themselves now is why olo would allow this clear defamation to continue
That along with who really is Sparky?
There are now alligations that we tried to bribe this person when I offered funding [a small amount for him to start his own animal welfare group in his state.
I think olo should remove this comment but do not see Graham doing so.
While this may be a bit of fun for Robert and Graham a court wont find it so ammusing.
Nobody is immune from the law just remember that and this thread Robert was allowed to start is deflamotary and damages now will be sort.
Its more than that really its aboutjustice.
There is a programe on ABC called media watch that would be happy to look at this internet service also.
You are cowards who hide behind false names while having the hide to demand each person put their real names up.
Whydo you think taryn stopped posting Graham? because everybody knew she was a member and attacked the poor lady any time she posted.
You already have real names with pictures and even contact numbers
This thread is a discrace Graham Young.
Great way to treat a member Graham

SPANKY, thanks. I'll try and avoid commenting on those attacks aimed at me - I think I've put enough stuff up previously to make it clear what is going on for those with the time and interest to wallow through it (anybody like that may need to borrow your machine).

Before you use the machine find the link I posted earlier to the original carpark and have a skim of what's left of the start of it. That will give a fairly quick guide to the role truth plays in the claims made about what I was doing when I opened that carpark.

I don't think I had anything to do with Wendy being banned but can't prove it. I have nominated posts for deletion for serious flaming, brazen advertising and promotion of violence but don't recall doing so in Wendy's case for multiple identities.

My rebuttal of other false claims has been completely ignored so there is not much point in continuing. I'm monitoring what goes up in case there is someting actually worth commenting on.

I have the impression that Benny_Sampson who was heavily involved in the original carpark was with PALE (but am not certain of that).

Don't fret too much. Whilst I don't enjoy having people think I've set out to harm PALE I don't see that anything said here will change the beliefs some cling to.

R0bert

And yet PALE, when CJ tried to stop the thread, you kept commenting. For crying out loud, if you stop posting, it will lose momentum and all go away.

There's been no need for this. Some are of the view that you should change your posting practices, but you feel it's not necessary. Fine. We've established that.

Everything's been said. It's all so stupid, but perhaps you should learn to simply let go.

If you're really worried about all the negative things being said, here's an idea.... stop posting on these two threads! Sheesh.

I have just deleted a comment which could have been interpreted as suggesting that PALE attempted to "bribe" someone. I am leaving PALE's last comment, although it is arguably a breach of the forum rules. I am prepared to have my role scrutinised and to answer questions non-aggressively.

I note that PALE is now threatening legal action. That need not stifle legitimate discussion, but you should all bear in mind that you are responsible for your own comments, and that in the event that the threat is carried through a court has the power to order us to provide them with your personal details.

PALE appear to be alleging bad faith on my part. This is not true, as anyone who has followed these threads over the years should be able to tell.

They also appear to think, when they say "great way to treat a member" that because they paid a membership fee to join The National Forum, publisher of On Line Opinion, that they are owed special privileges on the forum. Any organisation in compliance with The National Forum's objects can join the company. That does not give them special rights in the forum. I moderate this forum on the basis that everyone is equal and will not be swayed because of someone's financial contributions.

PALE also appears to have a problem with The National Forum allowing someone to start a thread which questions what is happening under their identity. I do not agree. They are a public organisation and it is entirely proper that they be subject to legitimate public questioning. In this case RObert was interested in exactly who was posting, and when. It appears to me to be a good question.

Graham
It is is a question that only you can answer.
We followed your intructions to the T

You said in writing that Antje could post as pale but "only Antje".
You also said if we brought up our tag again you would bar us for life
Yet Robert was allowed to bring up that very subject
Knowing we could not protect ourselves!

Graham, I'd like to clarify a point from the last part of your post.

I'm not particularly concerned with exactly who is posting (I keep my own identity private). Rather with being able to differentiate between different users and official organisational viewpoints. P1,P2 & P3 might achieve the same end.

I am concerned that when I express disagreement with the views posted under the name of PALE I get accused of attacking the organisation and trying to undermine their work on animal welfare regardless of the topic being discussed.

I'm concerned that PALE's name is being used to make public statements about my mental health, love life etc and that of other posters.

I think that it would be in PALE's best interest to separate themselves as an organisation from the personal views of whoever posts on other topics but that is their decision.

Mostly I'd like a simple meaningful way of responding to comments without confusion over who I'm responding to.

I noted a possible breach of rules in the opening post, that has been addressed previously both by PALE providing an explaination and by your own earlier post.

R0bert

I stopped posting for a long time because of this.

Much later I asked olo if I could post again.
I was told I could but only as a person not pale.
I was happy to do that but then was accused of posting as a pale person and the mulpile ids came up again.

The same thing happend to another person who posted.

So being told only Antje was allowed to use olo was ok until anybody esle who posted as a person was jumped on by ' Certain" people being accused as really posting for pale.

I used to enjoy olo in the beginng and I wanted to post for the animals live exports.
I have been reading this thread but not posting.
I wanted to let others know who read this outside olo that there is another side to this.
I dont blame them saying they wont discuss this anymore.

Robert
I just saw your post. So the truth finally comes out. It was because I made the comment when you were gong to visit the nice lady
Oh well Robert you have got yourself in a stop now considering you just told me Ishould pass my children back to my X becauseI am re married and we are moving.
From there you flew at pale- clearly because you identied me as a pale person.
I think pale responded to you if I recall by Antje saying Robert You cant Run Peoples lives.
In reference to mental health it was yourself who made comments about Antjes- If I recall now.
However that aside at least you now have told Graham Young the truth,
Thats a start.
So you agree it was always about your on line friendship and that you felt I had made you look rather childish
Because Mr Young that was all it was ever about.
You have caused stress to them to me to Graham because of your own little ego
You can dish it out but dare anybody say in a civil tone
Robert you cant control peples lives.
You encouraged others to call them racist pigs.
Thats ok with you clearly.
PALE can post on any topic and so can I.
I was polite when I said it.
I even left the thread because I did not want to argue.
I think pale the real truth is finally out and I hope olo now see it.

Taryn, I'll try a response but don't wish to be drawn back into another series of useless exchanges.

There is no relationship or possibility of a relationship with the lady in question. A number of reasons for that including the fact that neither of us would start a relationship where a likely outcome was the harm to kids and ex's which would invaribly result. The other reasons are none of your business but not necessarily less important.

Somewhere between yourself and PALE a relationship was imagined on the basis that I agreed if ever I was in that part of the world it would be good to catch up (a suggestion made under the PALE name). I'm thinking a cup of coffee and a chat, you and PALE appear to be imagining something quite different.

I was then accussed of a breach of OLO rules for using the site for online dating (I've not noticed that rule, can you or PALE post it please).

I've made it clear in previous posts that there is no relationship nor will there be. Is that so hard to understand?

I also struggle to understand why if there was it would be any business of an NFP totally dedicated to animal welfare.

R0bert

Robert
Again to be sure no rules are broken I typed on a word doc and ask Antje to post on OLO.
It was you who created all the trouble for OLO and ourselves some time ago
I am not changing our tag Robert for you.

You indeed were the person who saw one post from Wendy and later a post reading people Against Live Exports.

All hell broke loose after that and not without stress to us and Graham.

Yes you did get me barred for multiple ids.

Yes we had only just paid a membership fee and yes Graham and I had words which I truly regret.

Unlike you Robert I have better things to Do than carry on like a spoilt child.

All the members were upset because each one liked to post on olo.

Sometimes they would sit together thinking what the would say about the animals on olo while they were making a sing or knitting something whatever.

The thing is all the members liked olo.
You put a stop to that. You knew you did so you showed how powerful you were at stopping them.

Then you have the hide to say that Graham NOW has to change the rules again especially for you!

Do you have the slightest idea the trouble you have caused.

You knew when you opened this thread we had no choice because YOU were the very person that made sure only Antje could post!

That`s why you tried to dob on her for allowing David to use her computer.
Remember- Look up! To your first post.

I rest my case.

I am now going back to the task - to faze out live exports with alternative solutions.
May I suggest Robert you do not use olo for your love life- because really its only you who is the slightest bit interested and this is a political forum that a person worked hard to build up while you drag it down with your trouble making and nit picking.
Good bye I hope

Robert
I do not wish to do anything other than have you leave me to post. I did not start this thread, you did.
Your imagination of my interest in your personal life is something else.
I would liked to have posted to that lady too. I could see she was in pain and angry that her x had moved on even if you couldnt Honestlty I thought it was nice for her and you that you were travelling from Australia to America for a cup of coffee.
I dont mean that in a smart way either Robert. Its just everytime we bump into each other you say things like oh Taryn is that the official position of pale or who are you today.
This pale seems to have an id problem
One never knows if they are talkng to Taryn as Taryn - seems to be a muliply id crisis.
Or words to that effect. Look I am not going back now to spend my time looking for things said to me in the past.

I just want you to post picking on me because you know I used to work at the pale office.
I got my own membbership to post now and I am really just mainly interested in animal welfare but at times I see a thread I like to make a comment on as well. As I have four young children and I am still young my self some topic other than animal welfare interest me.
I dont mean to sound rude but your not one of them. You need to get over yourself Robert because I rembemer you making similar comments. Nobody is interested other than you. You imagine things.
Please hear me when I tell you I have never had the slightest interest in your private life. Its only you who keep waffling on about it all the time.
Sorry if the truth hurts.I have to go to work now but Robert how about giving others some peace and stop pick pick picking ok
Good Luck

Beat me up with a rubber hose if I'm mistaken here, but Taryn,RObert and whoever is posting on behalf of PALE, all sound as though you all know one another personally?

Just a question, thats all.

I do not often break a promise but I so so now, I promised myself I would not again post here.
Never again enter into conversation with Those posting as pale, I must come back for this last post.
I have been subject of miss information used as a weapon against me, threats, abuse, slurs all in my view from that group in posts here.
I have witnessed some dreadful insulting posts aimed at RObert.
I have been placed back on track after considering such posts are unlikely to be taken on face value by any reasonable person.
Something other than balance is on open display here.
It was never my wish that this group stop posting ,or in my view anyones, defamation? think carefully others seem to have a far better case.
In another thread I say I will no answer pales posts, that is my reason for returning here and now those posting as pale let me say we need to have this agreement.
It is my view you can not debate without uncontrolled rage.
I will not refer to you or answer you in any posts in future.
I ask ,but know you will find it a task to hard to do the same for me, one day if your group has enough numbers some one will sit you down and tell of the damage that has been done.
I would need a great deal of convincing a lesson has been learned, not just another change of personality in the team posting as pale.
Sue me if you wish, make me your target, but know you build your case on invented evidence ignoring the claims you make about other is unhelpful.
It is past time pale to review your own actions
Those who debate you here have nothing to be ashamed of.
In truth the center of this problem lies outside the control of OLO
Or anyone who posts here.

'Beat me with a rubber hose'!!

Gawd SPANKY! Your last two posts have really cracked me up!!

This really is the Twilight Zone!

CJ's line has been well breached. What a damn shame.

SPANKY, no I don't know any of them - just their OLO presence.

R0bert

One more question:
OLO is who/what?..for me to fit the last piece of the puzzle.

SPANKY, OLO is On Line Opinion (an abreviation for this site)

Have a great weekend all.

R0bert

Goodness me, now I feel really STUPID!.. err thanks?

May I remind you SPANKY further up the thread I asked you to read the posts understand the thread?
All is forgiven but just like you I do like a laugh, yes I came back, many do look around the corner to keep am eye on this thread.
In another thread someone says it takes too long?
I can update myself on the longest thread in no more than 10 minutes.
And in truth it takes less to go back to our last post and read the rest, we are then informed before we post.

SPANKY, no need to feel stupid for that. Abbreviations are popular because they are easier to type and sometimes every word counts with posting limits. Belly is correct in his point that you will need to read the threads to understand what is happening. Sometimes informative, some of the stuff on the original carpark was in my view really good in regard to ideas about managing behaviour on discussion forums.

As I said before - have a great weekend all.

R0bert

RObert - stop feeding them .... you must realise by now you are not dealing with normal rational people.

PF,
Care to explain what a "normal rational" person is?

You have to ask Spanky? how sad. The pickin's are slim on this thread but I was refering to one particular group of posters, not yourself. But, as they say, if the shoe fits .....

PF may I? you are right the thread should have ended long ago, but do we gain from walking away?
Sometimes we must defend freedom of speech, freedom to think unlike others, and sometime we should defend others rights too.
That is not a job we should take lightly or miss use, I know you understand.
SPANKY friend please read the thread, please understand the thread, and know your question was as strange as asking what is OLO.
RObert and I come from different sides of the political fence, we do not know one another.
But I think without reserve he started this thread more as a healing thing, my job teaches me daily sometimes to clear the air you must first have a dust up.
That effort was wasted, I can not pretend I will not come back to this thread, it is human nature to do so.
We me, every one are judged by our posts, more than one contribution here was from some one who did not understand the issues or the intent, SPANKY if you read the thread you will see its not just you.
In a way this thread is real life politics question time!
I like to think some day question time in the house will not be the mess it has been for the past 50 years.
We at OLO ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THAT ALREADY.

PF,
Yes.. they say the same for hats...and gag trying to remove their foot from their mouths!
Watch it.

belly
I am going to give you some advise because this thread is being viewed by other than olo staff.
The comment you posted below cant say legally. I dont think you realise what is legally defamotary.
We dont want you mixed up in any trouble. Now we didnt have to tell you that so please dont bite our head off.

You attacked us first and we responded with a joke.

Take your own advise and as you said walk away,
There are three other people your happily chatting away to at present.
Two of those especially we are not treating as a joke.
You dont need to get mixed up in it.- Here is the comment-
belly said-
I have been subject of miss information used as a weapon against me, threats, abuse, slurs all in my view from that group in posts here.
of course you could argue you didnt name anybody but we are the only group isee on this thread so- ahthat wouldnt really work,.
Good luck for your elections
Hey Rud overturned Julia`s policy on medicare today.
Your right hes not stupid totally. Good on him.
Sparky good luck to you too cheers

My comment was not one about the host posting as pale your continuing threats surely are beneath contempt?
I have set myself a task, one I often asked others ,some should do it and understand this thread before comment.
I found the first car park.
I am reading it, I was here for it but did not notice it, I was totally committed to debating the then new workchoices, but I should have looked in.
I find it did much good , some true debate and great Ideas, Grahams in put helped.
But the deleted posts? behavior has got much better hasn't it?
Once more that bloke on the other side of the fence than me RObert must be thanked.
That thread[half read but going back] was great.
Its intent was a better forum, it worked.
Now Graham I must ask, sorry it would be better left but good men do not gain by being too good, how long will we face these brutal threats rather than debate?
Just reading all the current front page threads on the forum , all of one posters comments, seeing the changes in personality if nothing else in those posts.
I have no wish to taunt pale, no wish to talk to them.
No Axe to grind, nothing, but I want to be left to post without treats.
I am after all a rough nut. but why
why is free speech so threatened? constant intrusions into other threads like is there a God to inform every one to watch me I may make a union God?
Or the slings and insults about Rudd vs Gillard in an unrelated thread?
Now let me explain that comment.
Ginx came in to say SPANKYS comments broke them up, people with little understanding of the history and the debate did so often.
To kick the door in on a thread you do not understand comment and run away only proves you could benefit by understanding the issues first.

belly Belly Belly
Nobody is threating you. Just the opposite in fact. You should thank Graham if he deleted something that is legally able to cause a problem.
He shows us no favours I can assure you.
Nobody is trying to change your personality either.

Just that you must understand this is a political forum and you should not take it so personally if others make political comments.

We actually just congradulated Mr Rudd on his medi care flip against Julia.

It was the right thing to do.
Just a suggestion but why dont you post in the area of you job and we "promise' we WONT go into that thread.

Everybody is good at something belly live exports just insn`t your strong point.

Why not post about your ideas but in the area you work because otherwise you are going to get offended all the time if any poster bags alp.

Because we are not selfish we are going to share the joke with other readers why your so endeared to us.
You wont like it but you crack us up.
Do you remember screaming and to another poster saying- What has the ALP China thread to do with these people. Surley they are following me around just to annoy me- [ or words to that effect.?

] We then explained that live exports to China are very much on topic for us.

I see now you have posted on another thread. My name is @@ and Iam a @@@ and I know a thing or two about exports.

Your priceless. love it!

Pale I grow weary can we agree not to refer to one another?
It is my view your self assurance is miss placed .
Your idea of humor is not one I share.
My concerns spoken to Graham here are regretted, in Truth no doubt about it only pale can change anything and that will not happen.

"belly
I am going to give you some advise because this thread is being viewed by other than olo staff.
The comment you posted below cant say legally. I dont think you realise what is legally defamotary.
We dont want you mixed up in any trouble." (Quote: PALEaIF)

RUBBISH!! ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!

This is a straight out threat to a poster.

Dammit all! You cannot even spell DEFAMATORY!

You hint strongly that lawyers are looking at this. They should be struck off IF that is the case!

There is NO defamatory remark here. What you are trying to do is to intimidate.

Belly (and R0bert?) for Crissake! LET IT GO. This barely lucid group of eejits will just continue ON and ON.

I have always promoted low level moderation on any forums. OLO has that. BUT: this thread should be locked. This kind of exchange is a bloody insult to the calibre of OLO.

PALaIF; your organisation under your/me/us/I guardianship, is dead and buried as far as I'm concerned.
I don't recall a group, club, OR organisation ANYWHERE that has behaved in the manner in which your sorry little gang have.

Strewth! You would have a Saint cursing.

Ginx every word you say is true, why do I come back? if only I knew!
Revisiting the first car park, well worth while it truly is.

belly
There were are never has been any suggestion of threats to you.

Nor anybody else for that matter.

We went out of our way to tell you there were no hard feelings towards youself depite the name calling.

We understand you are passionate about your job and opinions.

Others of course just as we do have to understand they are reasponsible for their posts on olo.

I think some people feel because they do not use real name they are not responsible.

We have longed suggested each person use their real names.

We post on here as intructed by olo - simply.

Robert and belly and all other posters we believe in a fair go and people to be treated in the same manner.

So Robert if your fair dinkim about these threads for justice please know a Muslim poster new to OLO was banned simply for suggesting the comments which were outragous posted by ginx should be taken off by OLO. Thats was their only comment.

Please note Ginx is still posting.

We are not trying to get anybody banned including Ginx but we are trying to get justice for this other Muslim poster.

They have said they are so upset they wont come back even if invited.

Even if that is the case it might be nice for them to see a show of support from everybody anyway.

I hope you will all agree its unfair to ban somebody who has been the `least` offender.

It also sends a bag message to our fellow Muslim posters.

We are asking OLO to re issue the posting rights for this person whose only crime was to speak up for us.

I would hope you would all support them.

We are not being anti olo staff either.

Just feel that staff persons actions needs an urgent review.

Lets see if any of you are prepaired to be fair about things and

give this other poster a fair go because this is not fair.

Why not use the car park for the right purpose to help someone whos been wrongly treated.

PALE, that "Muslim poster" was a sock puppet, as are a number of other accounts I suspect.

And there you have it. THIS is the intelligence level of this person/people.

This is a smart forum. Left OR Right; it has not been to difficult to figure something out....? But not you.

'You' are not trying to get "justice" for anyone. You are trying to stir up even more trouble. Now you are protecting the 'rights' of a "Muslim" (who wore a cloak of many colours...). That's a nice little turnaround.

What a nasty little bunch of miscreants.

Thank-you Bugsy.

I learned the hard way what a sock puppet was! I saw your warning but didn't understand it; so I barrelled ahead!

I have never experienced that before. It it the grubbiest form of conflict I have ever seen.

Bugsy
No thats is not the case. The poster contacted us and is a genioun poster who was upset and surprised and hurt.
We feel a bit awful because they only spoke out about what they felt was unfair.
I suspect the poster would have done the same for you or any of the other posters.
Just a fair nice decent person that is all.
Being Muslim wasnt the issue and we made no reference to that in such content.
What I said was it was a bad imagage and we hoped other posters might support at least that we are a fair bunch of Aussie posters regardless.
It would be nice not everything we post must be taken out of contex.

We would very much like to see that poster back on olo because other than it wasnt fair they were very interesting.

If you think that is the case PALE, then they certainly chose the wrong thread to post their initial remarks in. It's a bit suspicious (on forums generally) when a number of "new posters" join in one (not very interesting) thread and all of them have something personal to say about a single individual as their first remarks.

Let them be upset, I am sure they can open another account, it doesn't appear to be that difficult. Maybe they can make their name sound more "muslimy" next time.

PF good clean post spot on too.
We all I think understand body language? well if you want to you can define the same things about people from the written word.
Some time some one who can do that is going to see the multi personality's we see here, I am not referring to multi persons, we do have both posting under a tag.
My childhood is a bit further back than some here but I am instantly reminded of school yard bully's tactics.
Do you know the day I hit him back he became my friend?
I do not seek friends or enemy's, just want and end to the crawling, then heated insults,
In truth the total refusal to find a mirror, to understand our selves is a symptom.
We each and every one of us must know we are not always right, know room for improvement exists or we can NEVER IMPROVE.
It is a basic most of us know, those who do not can only try to be the school yard bully, respect has to be earned not forced down our throats.
Let us understand we will change nothing the symptoms on display here are fixed and unmovable.
However the threats are real, and must stop, they just must stop, I would expect to be banned forever from any site if I used such tactics.
Symptoms or not

Invaluable post thank you David.
May I just ask those left over from the first car park and those from this thread to think carefully about publishing your true full ID here?
Mine is known, I did it even before publishing my full name in a post, I was wrong to do it.
Some true idiot has haunted me ever since.
However some , could die, yes it could get that bad, strange people live out there.
And you should hold your self responsible for your posts but do not take the bait , keep your details to your self.
I level no claims against anyone, truly have no idea who is giving me problems.
Can more than look after myself but why let your self be annoyed?

Thank you for the information Mr Administrator. I had certainly suspected as much, about all of them (and he seems to be continuing).

Just a word of advice to PALE, did you ever stop to consider why they contacted you directly? Somewhere out there is a troll who his laughing his a$$ off at all of this.

Welcome to teh intarwebs.