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In my opinion, the culture in modern activists (especially women activists) promote for there to be belligerent agreement or belligerent disagreement. No culture change will happen if over half of the population knows they aren't wanted in the discussion anyways.

On too many issues, I would count myself as a "no" man. Some issues are worth standing against, others are just crazy trends for an activists to support to stay feeling active. The rest that I don't support are that I see other parts of the issue that are unwanted because it's not belligerent support.

On the specific topic of feminism (one of many causes that activists stand behind), I don't support it because the feminists that I've seen or met have been a reason to not support them. That and feminism has broadened to be more then just equality. You also have the die hard feminists who think women shouldn't choose to have a family nor to conform to the roles society has given them. It doesn't matter if a woman wants to or chooses to because it weakens what they are fighting for. You also have the man hating feminists who really do hate all men. Somewhere in between there's those who play the victim card in manipulative ways. All of which makes feminism a distrustful group.

These are issues worth knowing, regardless of the importance of a cause you might support. If you want to talk about specific issues to support or change, then do so without being part of the pattern that is identified in the women activists. Accept the nay sayers, even the belligerent ones, as part of the equasion. You don't have to reply to them, but you need to not tell them off, nor have a huge part of women activist culture being about telling off the angry nay sayers; as is currently done.

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Does that make sense? If so, then I'd be ok to move on to the issues you brought up. About women in work places, about abuse, beatings, and rape. About the burden of being a mother and not leaving an abusive husband because you can't support the kids on your own, or on the burden of being a mother that can't quit a job to take care of their children because she can't support her family otherwise.

There are issues women face, some of them the only answer is that you have to make do with what you've got (like a working single mother). Others there might be more options but still some hurdles to know. You can't expect change from support unless the issues for how the justice system works and having fairness to even criminals be brought up in the discussion of rape. Do we need a harder system of punishments, or a better protection of the guilty so they aren't over punished. Each issue has it's own rebuke, that the culture of activists don't care about or don't intend to address. How will there be any change in that kind of enviornment?

Dear NNS,

It is inevitable that will run into certain men on
a public discussion forum such as this one. Men, who
amongst other things have opinions about a woman's
"place", about feminism, and misogyny.

Men whose views are rigid, stereotyped, and deal with
sweeping generalisations. Men who have set mindsets
and who attack rather than discuss.

I am a strong proponent of getting into debates with
these people, or at least trying to, and to attempt in
giving them rational reasoned evidence and arguments to
try to see things from a different perspective. My own
views are not set in concrete. However if the attacks
continue and judgements are not able to be modified
the result is usually a total breakdown in communication.
And results in my usually just walking away.

My view is that feminism is based on altering the historical
endemic discrimination against women across all segments of
society, from the economic to the educational to the sexual.

It believes that men and women should have equal rights and that
fighting against sexual attitudes and restrictions is necessary
to make this happen. However most women are also realists about
the world, and how far behind women have been and continue to
be.

They also recognise that men have rights and problems too.
Patriarchy has bad effects on men all around the world. It
keeps them from expressing their emotions, traps them in
gender roles they may not want, and causes damage all over
the place.

Feminism as I understand it is not about minimising men's
problems, or saying that they have everything the way they
want it. It is possible to focus on the difficulties (which
are many and long-standing) of one gender without pretending
that the other one is hunky-dory all the time.

It is therefore also possible to be a feminist and advocate
for other rights as well. All feminism does is highlight
some serious and very important issues from which fixing them
we can all benefit.

I have nothing further to add to this discussion.

I look forward to our next one.

Cheers.

Foxy- Men get felt up too in certain contexts. It's not right but I try to keep it in proportion.

Foxy said "The Harvard Business Review has found in repeated studies the social cost of negotiating for higher pay has been found to be
greater for women than for men."

Answer- Please provide a link to the article.

Canem Malum,

Yes, by all means lets keep things in proportion.

I shall repeat what has already been stated.

Feminism is not about minimising men's problems.
All feminism is trying to do is highlight some
serious and very important issues from which
fixing them we can all benefit.

If you want to discuss men's problems - you should
start your own discussion on the topic.

As for the Harvard Business Review surveys on the
wage gap differences - these are too numerous to
list here. However they are available on the web.
And you can Google them for yourself.

For me this discussion has now run its course.