The Labor party for 6 years were pioneers in thought bubble populist policies that cost a fortune and either achieved very little or nothing, or led to the disastrous consequences that experts had predicted.

Today we add a new star to the sky of labor failures, the plain packaging laws that in a single stroke have managed to reverse the 2 decade long downward trend in smoking.

I would like to say I was the first to say I told you so, but the there were a long line of experts saying that the effect of plain packaging may very well change smokers to cheaper cigarettes and boost smoking rates.

This can be added to Labor's horror roll of failed policies:
1 The carbon tax that ruined industries and failed to reduce emissions,
2 The mining tax that added huge compliance costs to miners and raised no tax,
3 The BER debacle that wasted $8bn of tax payers money.
4 The $9bn cash hand out that boosted imports but did almost nothing for the economy.
5 The pink Batts disaster
6 The Boats policy that launched 1000s of boats with over 50 000 illegal immigrants, cost over $10bn and killed up to 2000 people.
6a The East Timor solution,
6b The Malaysian solution,
6c The Regional solution, (without which supposedly there could be no stopping the boats),
7 The GP super clinics that are mostly still empty,
8 Grocery watch and fuel watch,
9 The climate peer review group,
10 Gonski,
.... The list is almost endless

I tried to make a list of Labor's positive achievements but couldn't think of any.

THERE///is supposed to be a law suit..in process
IN ARTICLES..but i cant find it

did find my latest

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6259&page=0
one on the earliest
CONTRADICTION..OF/FACT..actually SAID..IN..PARLEMENT[extensive]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4307#109664

and a current one i been updating
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6196&page=0

but im so over...these govt wars..on our morals
by what right does govt tax me..as a sink into that long dark night

my last act on earth will be a calming smoKE/as i blow..it out calmly/saying..gree at last..fre-at/last..my time..in hell is past.

THAT/LAST/calming..ciggarette..I PAID..HUNDREDS FOLDS TAX ON[TILL MY LAST STINKIng breath..,confirms my long suffering..has ended in death..this/year.

to hell with you/many..who wish to tax me..unto death.
may the flithy karma..of your immoral-works/bias/hate..roc ya socks off in hell/full of\thyne own smoke

ahh men..for you moralising biggots..
who/lied..then tried to breath..their filthy bull smoke..up my arss

there is no one/with clean hands..
CONTRADICTION..OF/FACT..actualy SAID..IN..PARLEMENT[extensive]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4307#109664 to present its pEtition/let alone insurance underwriter who can pay the damages[back to us..4..personal hurt/INJURY..MALFEASENCE]

i notE..when the smoke companies needed to pay out[govt wowsers got it]..they got our tax..[OUR COMPO]..THEN TAX US MORE..for their adertising scams/big pharma got a patent right to price nicoteen as if drug..the filthy karma..THE mud stuck

im over it..you sin tax me to death
my teeth rotting..is a good propaganda photo/but how much..damaging my teeth cost..you..nothing

the rotted stumps are mine/yet
not one cent of..my tax..goes to fixing teeth..not one cent goes to health..

our\SMOKERS..health costs are 800 million
when govt talk treason and says 32 billion..not opne of you blink
the whole medical costs for everything is a lot less[for everything=28 billion]..mainly you diabetics and drunks[and yung punks]..and victims of crime or sport OR rort.

Haha!....

Good try, SM.

And I suppose you're going to next highlight what an absolute success the Abbott govt's first budget has been?

Perhaps you could interview it if it ever regains consciousness...being as it is on life support at the moment.

Now I have to run, must be ready for the first major clanger dropped by our illustrious dopey Prime Minister on the international stage.

The Abbott govt is the most entertaining slow-motion political train wreck I've ever witnessed.

Here you go, SM.

http://thekouk.com/blog/the-australian-s-claim-on-tobacco-go-up-in-smoke.html#.U5EGvm7XUWa.twitter

"The Australian is at it again. It is running another fact-less story with the express intent of undermining a key policy of the previous Labor government and what is disconcerting this time, is that it is pushing the line of the tobacco industry."

"The "exclusive" story based on "new data obtained by The Australian" claims that "tobacco sales volumes increased by 59 million 'sticks' ... last year". The source of this shock finding is "industry monitor" InfoView which is "backed up by retailers, consumer marketers and the industry". Only Philip Morris and the Australasian Associates of Convenience Stores are cited.

Fortunately, the story is wrong.

Consumption of tobacco and cigarettes is falling and has fallen sharply since the plain packaging rules were implemented in December 2012.

Just this week, the Australian Bureau of Statistics released the national accounts and buried in those accounts is a measure of the volume of household consumption of cigarettes and tobacco.

The figures from the ABS show that total consumption of tobacco and cigarettes in the March quarter 2014 is the lowest ever recorded – and this with the series starting in 1959. This is extraordinary. It is a Great Depression for tobacco sales.

Making this record low consumption of tobacco all the more fantastic is that the fact that the consumption numbers are not adjusted for population growth which, by definition, means per capita consumption of tobacco and cigarettes is also at a record low.

Making a mockery of The Australian's story is the fact that, in seasonally adjusted volume terms, consumption of tobacco is 5.3 per cent lower in the March quarter 2014 than in the December quarter 2012 when the plain packaging laws were introduced.

It seems like The Australian is pushing, in a high profile front page story, baseless information fed to it from pressure groups with a vested interest to sell more tobacco and cigarettes. With sales cascading, there are looking for any pressure to change the rules that are obviously working to reduce tobacco consumption."

More bollocks from The Austraian.

Poirot,

I remember all the left whingers telling me that my skepticism of Labor's implementation of yet another untested thought bubble was simply because I supported the tobacco industry. I take it that your complete failure to address the topic is admission that once again you all were wrong and labor stuffed up.

Once again: "I told you so" is appropriate.

As for the budget, reducing spending and increasing taxes is not popular, which seems to be the only measure that left whingers have.

Abbott already has one major policy success under his belt, and is already ahead of Juliar and Krudd.

Shadow Minister,

I take it you've since noted my specific address to the topic.

And the fact it blows your initial claims out of the water.

Lol!..."Abbott already has one major policy success under his belt.."

You and I obviously exist in parallel universes.

Have a good day.

(maybe I'll see you on twitter:)

P,

So the first thing you do is run to your left whinge blogs to find an alternative.

While you lay a tremendous store by SK's 15 min google search, a story in the Australian that has independent sources and fact checkers still carries more credibility

Poirot, let hope that the French don't understand Abbott's gobbledygook, at least, hopefully in that way if Pierre doesn't understand it will save Australia the embarrassment. And the French are a touchy mob at the best of times and knowing our Tone he is prone to foot in mouth, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time, like reminding the French "how did ya go at Waterloo?" If Tone does drop a clanger, hopefully there will be an aid near by who can shove another perfetta roll in his gob.
Also, Australian diplomats are still working behind the scenes to convince these foreign countries thta Abbott is visiting that he's actually in fact the PM of New Zealand, in that way we can deflect the embarrassment on to our ex mates from across the ditch, them there Kiwi's.
Tone has told the French while he's in France he would love a trip to the top of the Eiffel Tower, as Tone has said already to his hosts "I'd love to get up there and get eye full of ya wonderful town of Berlin, and what better spot to get an eye full than on top ya Eye Full Tower....did the Poms knock that up for ya or something. you didn't build it yourself did ya...a bit ugly, needs a paint job!" Diplomacy where ever our Tone goes.

pority..note-please..THE/pure rot

<<..Just/this week,..the Australian Bureau..[desk]..of Statistics released..[T?]..the national accounts..>>[TNA's?]

WHAT IS..THIS NATIONAL..'ACCOUNT'..
BUT..CREATIVE ACCOUNTING..[watch]

<<..and buried..in those*accounts..is..[dada..dada..dadumm]..a measure>>

what..'measure..measuring..what/TNA
by what/tans-measure

measuring[how?]..<<..of the volume>>cm3?

<<..of household consumption..of cigarettes..and tobacco.>>[measure..paper]

i buy mine..on the...black markeT
OTHERS BUY THEIRS IN HOTELS/SHOPS..

THE VOLUME Of HOUSHOLD..CON..*SUM*..gumtion..*WHAT?
A PLOT..IS WHAT YA GOT

<<>.The figures..from the ABS>>
NO THE FIGURES OF..THE NATIONAL HOUSEHOLD ACCOUNT[tnha]

IN AMMOUNT..[volume]..[GROSS/net..fiddle..yeP YOU BET]

<<..show that total*/HOUSEHOLD/con-
sumption of tobacco and cigarettes>>

now watch the inclusion..[recalling
many..are yet smoking our..pre tax hike buy-up/stash.

<<>>..in the March quarter 2014..is the lowest..*ever recorded>>

[citation needed]

<<..and this?..with the series..>>

[define series-progression]..
serious..a series?..<<starting in 1959.>>

BUT SMOKING/BEGAN 500 YEARS AGO
WHAT HAPPENED..IN 1958?..[oh/woman-smoking]..got-ya.

<<<..This is extraordinary.>>

thats likely..not even the\half/of it

....thMM,,<<..thee\

<<..>>It>>[1958?[[<<..is a Great Depression..for tobacco sales.>>

ha wait till..the nicoteen addicts/been life long..addicted
2 paxk/a day-adicts]..TO THE PILLS-POTIONS/chewing gum..[in total the total toobacco[sorry/nicoteen]. clientele being serviced/taxed/revenued..has increased*by..one thIRD...EXCEPT..NOW BIG PHARMA/moneyVAPORISERS..HAS GOVT MONEY..custom

AND..the bigots..GOT A NEW SIN TAX.

WE NEED..to/TAX OPINION..if..you/got personal injury
by our smoking..then please go ahead..take us to court..sue us sue..

due?..ok...so sue
or else screw you.
go poke/govt\guilt-stink..stink up[others noses]..in case you missed it..decades agO..GOVT GAVE PUBLIC SERVANTS..THE RIGHT TO LIE*..

[GET IT]..GOVT LIES*[SO IT..HAS GUILT/SPIN
[THE TRUE/SIN=THE SPIN..[THEN A GUIlTFREE TAX-victim\loners..
revenue/raised..off/ON SIN..[what the greater sin/karmicly..on/souls/arsouls?}

please show..how my smoking..has hurt you...personalLY[even collectively]?..that you need mindlessly./parrot govt rot..into our forum.[LOBBY/BLOGGING?]

[damm..there is change..in the wind/
\here i am slagging it off..with the one I LOVE..BUT CLEARLY MY SMOKING..HAS DAMAGED OUR RELATION...[IF ANY]..WHERE DOES..MY REALITY AND..YOUR..govt induced-bias/fear?...disinfo.DELUSION END?

all*govt/agents..lie*[full-stop]

words that offend..MUST END
but im the one cast slur upon..i feel unfairly systematically continuelly..how soon before its seems on me personally..in the next life those who decried my cries will get to live the pain of it/sadly\my pain is numbness..i feel nuthing..no one any one nor all/can hurt me..the fire in my mouth keeps the flame in my heart alive[and calm]..please ban the freaking things..so i can really get angry.

Actually Poirot is right as can be seen in the latest National Accounts http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/5206.0Mar%202014?OpenDocument

Select Table 8. Household Final Consumption Expenditure and then look for

Cigarettes and Tobacco Series Number A2303415T

$3405 million for March quarter of 2014. Lowest it has been in the data set since 1959. December 2012 quarter $3508 million.

What the writer in the Australian seems to forget was that plain packaging was not designed to make existing smokers stop, but to make cigarettes less attractive to new smokers. The real effects if any will be seen in some years time.

SM,

I didn't "run" to a left wing blog.

I saw the link on twitter and had a read.

And blow me down, it contained factual data which repudiates the rubbish in the Australian defending its mates in the tobacco industry.

As in :

"The figures from the ABS show that total consumption of tobacco and cigarettes in the March quarter 2014 is the lowest ever recorded – and this with the series starting in 1959. This is extraordinary. It is a Great Depression for tobacco sales."

".... a story in the Australian that has independent sources and fact checkers still carries more credibility"

Hahaha!...yeah!, pull the other one.

The Australian has as much credibility on this subject as it does on climate change.

Ergo...None!

Dear Shadow Minister,

You just can't seem to take a trick. I have just finished posting a reply to another thread where you had been spreading outright untruths and the very next one I open I find you at it again.

This forum isn't quite yet a Liberal Party Branch meeting. You will get picked up for posting garbage and as it seems to be your wont at this stage you will get caned for it.

A warning though, as I cautioned you earlier if you keep spruiking this rubbish you will slip out the arse end of relevancy. When every thing you post is quickly found to be rubbish that will be the default setting others will view it and you will be slotted just above runner in their estimation.

Time to turn it around. Check your facts before you post. You have on occasion posted some decent stuff in the past and could do so again with a better effort.

IT's always dodgy when it appears as an Australian exclusive.

We’re now at the pointy end of getting Australia towards being a nonsmoking nation, defined as having less than 10 per cent of people smoking. It’s always the last bit that’s the hardest,” Mr Moore told The Australian.

“We can hardly expect usage to drop at the same rate as it between World War II, when 80 per cent of men smoked, to 20 per cent a few years ago, to 15 per cent now.”

Mr Moore said experts “won’t be ignoring” the industry data but cautioned “tobacco companies have a long history of commissioning biased reports and interpreting data to suit themselves”

I KNOW ITS SO NICE TO HAVE LAST MONTHS SALE NUMBERS
but speed makes error..[but..SO-FAST*?]..COME-ON.

REVISIONS IN THIS ISSUE

There are revisions in this issue due to the incorporation of more up-to-date data and concurrent seasonal adjustment.

The estimate of the Implicit price deflator (IPD) for exports includes information not available at the time of compiling the Export Price Index (EPI),..including a negative $900m iron ore value adjustment..applied to the March quarter 2014 in the Balance of Payments...The EPI for March quarter 2014 will be revised with the June quarter issue of International Trade Price Indexes, Australia (cat. no. 6457.0)..*on 31 July 2014.

but greedy/scummy revenuers[read govt and its useless trolls].. needs immediate refutation..and majicly a govt dept provides the fuel for the 5billion extra taX THE LIE RAISes extra..this year

by what right/does govt agency
claim..it/has the right to make numbers up
[we can allways revise them if the usefull idfiots turn]

selective quoting..of no-sense=bulls tit

5206.0 - Australian National Accounts:
National Income, Expenditure and Product*,..Mar 2014.

yet majicly an antismokers 'found..it'immediatly under household
some haters realy dispise others enough to lie/set up fake links[check the ammount of dead links that simply disappeared

but reveal how we have hurt you
reveal your pain we cause upon you..NE-cause we despise you

hater'S hate..i expect this INSANITY FROM THE PRODUCER
who only can parrot back..but not fully quote
<<..Estimates of exports and imports of goods
by state/will no longer be published..in this..publication.>>

lol/but wont change/lol the numbers
why/do..i need refute..crappp

one wonders/why household/was used[not sales numbers?

<<..Taxes payable per unit of some good or service.>>

funny how no one says thanks for the 34 billion smoking taxes we pay

every year

<<..a good or service..(quantity being measured either..in terms
of discrete units...*or continuous physical variables..[lol]..such as volume,..weight,..strength,..distance,...time, etc.)>>

in this case square meters,

<..A tax on a product usually
becomes payable when the product is produced,..sold or imported,>>

not/when..it falls..onto/the house-hold-accounts

liars/..lie..dont..ask..why.

SR,

My apologies. My experiences of state and federal Labor governments is a continuous running of deficits. Victoria seems to be the exception.

It was so good to see Labor supporting the
current Liberal government in Victoria recently
against the Independent MP - G. Shaw's attempt to bring down
the Liberal government. Although Labor had the numbers to
do this - they saw this as setting a wrong precedent - and they
supported the Liberal Government. Wish we could see more
of this partisan approach amongst our politicians and political
parties - when
it comes down to "doing the right thing," instead of playing
politics.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Duly noted. It is easy to get caught out with ones perceptions not fitting the facts. It happened to me recently in a conversation about heroine addicts. It appears the primary demographic for users is now middle aged white women in the suburbs. Who would have thunk it.

Looking forward to reading your future offerings and welcome you holding my own to account.

Dear Foxy,

I am hardly one to prevent another looking on the bright side of anything but I'm afraid I can't quite bring myself to view Andrews' actions as bipartisan. He was after a by-election in Frankston and to do so was willing to remove a sitting member, elected by his constituency, for a matter that the likes of Tony Abbott have been able to shrug off with an apology and reimbursement of monies spent.

I haven't quite made up my mind about Andrews. There are moments where I think he gets it then he displays a political mindset that in my opinion the average Australian is getting heartily sick of. Evasion, repetition and naked political expediency.

Time will tell.

More:...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-06/anti-smoking-advocate-rejects-cigarette-sales-increase-report/5505210

"....Australian Council on Smoking and Health president Professor Mike Daube told ABC NewsRadio he believes the article, based on a report by industry monitor InfoView, is wrong.

"This is the typical approach taken by the tobacco industry. They leak a report to a friendly journalist, with a history of opposing what he describes as the 'nanny state', and then they put it on the front page and it gets some legs," he said.

"There are industry figures that show falls in tobacco sales and the chief executive of one of the biggest companies, Imperial Tobacco, in the half-yearly report for 2013, said that the markets had declined by 2 to 3 per cent since plain packaging came in.

"So, I think what you are seeing is a good, old-fashioned tobacco industry beat-up."

Yep, yet another LIE from the crazy old rightie Shadow Minister.

Shadow Minister, who religiously believes utterly *EVERYTHING* that the Australian, Alan Jones and Andrew Bolt says, has started a topic based on a LIE. Whereas the "facts" are the opposite of Shadow Minister's lie.

Imperial Tobacco, in it's half yearly report, said that the tobacco market has *DECLINED* by 2% to 3% since Labor's successful plain packaging was implemented.

Shadow Minister = LIAR, LIAR, LIAR.

ROT/LINK..<<..Cigarette sales increase>>

HANF-ON.. we were just talking about,,*a decrease..so we have an other statistic

called by a hater<<..report a tobacco industry 'beat-up'>>

anyhow..the..<<..anti-smoking advocate says>>

please note/the slap/slap/slap
last postr..we wwere talking about/reduced..cubic-something

now we are talking/about a greenie anti smoker..saying

<<>.An anti-smoking advocate..has rejected claims..that smoking has increased..since the introduction of plain packaging.>>

hesaid/shesaid/he said..who said?
WHAT PROOFS OPINION?
I say donr means i say true[nor you]
nor he/whoever he be]

<<..The Australian newspaper has reported that sales figures show>>

saes fuhures under report/not over report
i know under the counter [no reciept]..my smokes are 'cheaper][off the books

rewgardless what do the books say?

<<..59 million more cigarettes..>>were bought since the introduction of world-first plain packaging in 2012.>>>

so what books said[what about the actual quote the link gheading noted>?

<<>>Australasian Association of Convenience Stores chief executive Jeff Rogut..>>

is this the expert rebuting[or him rebutted]
this guy must know..surely?

<<..told the newspaper the increase..>>is part of a trend to buy cheaper cigarettes more often.>>

remember criminals keep stuff off the books
but he has..ON THE BOOKS/read tax records..

more but cheaper
kittle wonder they ned tweet/out the other crapp links

keep em comming piper

<<..However,..Australian Council on Smoking and Health president Professor Mike Daube..told ABC NewsRadio he believes the article, based..on a report by industry monitor InfoView, is wrong.>>

of course you do
but your opinion/dont refute nuthin[fascts are facts.he has hisd in the tax record..under duty paid]



SEEMS it was ..<<>.Updated 8 minutes ago>>

look at the surrounding imagry[subliminal programing[like them gorror pictures]

picture/this..<<>.One example of the 'ugly' cigarette packet packaging unveiled by the Federal Government Photo: Australia introduced world-first plain cigarette packets in 2012. (Supplied)
Map: Australia>>

our tAX DOLLARS AT WORK?

MORE LIES PLEASE.

Nhob,

I didn't deliberately post something incorrect as you did, and I admitted when I made an error.

You deliberately falsified something and are still the greatest LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, LIAR on the site.

So perhaps we can all agree that this was a tobacco industry beat up using cooked figures that a columnist bought without checking because it fitted his ideological agenda?

And leave this thread to OUG to spin conspiracy theories.

Shadow Minister has yet *AGAIN* lied in his reply to me. What I posted was correct. The empirical facts, as shown in Poirot's link, are that Imperial Tobacco in it's half yearly report reported that the tobacco markets have declined by 2% to 3% since Labor's successful plain packaging laws were enacted.

That was their reporting on the overall industry decline in their half yearly report in 2013. In their half yearly report in 2014, Imperial tobacco has just reported that their losses in tobacco revenue continue *UNABATED*. Their total tobacco income is *DOWN* by 8%, revenue is down by 5%, operating profit is down by 17% and earnings per share is down by 39%.

These are the empirical, mathematical facts regarding the decline of tobacco sales since the plain packaging laws were introduced.

HOJO..MATE ITS TIME YA LEARNED ABOUT UNDER THE COUNTER ACCOUNTING

FORTUNATLY..there is a yang to your yin
ask the auditor

http://www.pmi.com/eng/media_center/documents/kpmg%20report%20on%20illicit%20trade%20australia.pdf

A separate study by KPMG in the same month found that the black market in illicit tobacco in Australia is booming, costing the government up to $1 billion in forgone tax revenue.

The release of the KPMG report into illicit tobacco followed the 24 October 2013 joint announcement by the Australian Federal Police, Australian Customs and Border Protection Service, Victoria Police and the Australian Crime Commission of the arrest of 10 people in relation to alleged illegal tobacco importation with around 71 tonnes and 80 million cigarette sticks seized, and an estimated total defrauded taxation revenue of this seizure alone of more than $67 million."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-22/philip-morris-wrong-plain-packaging/5137682

if big toobacco wanted the beat up[is the beatup]

the anti-smoking mob beat this up..but once again..the stuff they put on the tax form..is a minimil number[look at global production/then figure if you can form a PRIVATE SMOKERS CLUB AND GET HALF PRICE TAX FREE SATISFACTION[ITS AN ADENOLIN rush smoking tax free/knowing your not the sukker paying the bill

It’s a nanny state....I don't know why they use that term, because it is an autocratic state run by lobbyists....minority rule....and I have never smoked.

Prohibition or introducing prohibitive factors to eradicate the target never works, particularly when the target is used within a social context....as in having a coffee with friends or having a beer with friends.....smoking ritualistic on some occasions so along with the ease of craving it carries a psychological hook, sort of monkey see monkey do.

Agronomist,

"So perhaps we can all agree that this was a tobacco industry beat up using cooked figures that a columnist bought without checking because it fitted his ideological agenda?"

Summed up very well.

......

Shadow Minister,

You're not allowed to call people liars on this forum (apart from your last post being puerile in the extreme)

......

OUG,

I'd like to reply to you....and more than once I've defended your unusual style of posting.

But...I can't make head nor tail of what you're
trying to say in your posts on this thread.

One Under God ..... what you "conveniently" failed to mention was that this exact same tobacco black market has existed in Australia for WELL OVER A CENTURY. It did *NOT* suddenly come into profit or existence merely because plain packaging laws exist.

Nice "try" OUG.

Damn I wish both sides of the media could provide links to the relevant data. Just spent far too long tracking these figures down. They are not in the CPI figures as suggested by one article but rather the National Accounts.

Okay here we go.

Plain packaging was introduced in Dec 2012. At that quarter the expenditure on tobacco and cigarettes was $3.508 billions dollars. The figures have then progressed as follows;

March 2013 $3.488 Billion
June 2013 $3.528 Billion
Sept 2013 $3.546 Billion
Dec 2013 $3.494 Billion
March 2014 $3.405 Billion

A download link to the ABS Household expenditure data can be found here;
http://tinyurl.com/k36n2za

What adds to decrease is the fact that cigarettes and tobacco CPI figures increased by 13.8% over that period due to increased taxes thus less were bought for the buck.

So there has obviously been a downward trend. The Australian was wrong and if they can make the claim that an increase in tobacco sales indicated the plain packaging was not working then the reverse applies. It is working, fewer of our youth will run the risk of addiction, and our future health budgets will be less than they otherwise would have been because of it. An Australian first worth celebrating.

Dear Poirot,

I think any condemnation of Shadow Minister in this case would justly be accompanied by the same being directed at Nhoj. Not that I plan on making a habit of defending him but in fairness there is probably good reason to think on this occasion SM was echoing what came his way. Not that I have kept and extended eye on all their exchanges.

Why thanks SteeleRedux, I love you too. xoxoxo

SR,

While some (especially the left whingers) believe that the Australian prints whatever it feels like, having listened to a fact checker on RNL discussing what he does I learnt that articles, especially on the front page require at least one credible source with the story, a second credible source to corroborate, and a review of information that might contradict the story.

While SK is a respected economist, and produced ABS information to support his assertion that the article was wrong, he has not considered whether there is any information that might have fallen outside of the ABS net.

"he has not considered whether there is any information that might have fallen outside of the ABS net"

Information like what Shadow Minister?

That people are grossly under-reporting how much they spent on tobacco products? Because that is what it would take for the article in the Australian to be correct.

SteeleRedux,

Hello!....so long since I talked to you : )

Yar, you're right. There seems to be an outbreak of posters calling other posters liars at the moment. I must admit that SM's "LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, LIAR" got my attention.

It's prohibited on OLO. Graham once told me that he's trying for a Parliamentary conduct thingy re: "lies, lying or liar"

Perhaps we should get Bronnie in to adjudicate?

Poirot wrote, "Parliamentary conduct thingy" .... does that mean I can call SM, "MENDACIOUS, MENDACIOUS, MENDACIOUS"? Hope so.

please revisit the thread/where big toobacco..is suing..govt
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16263&page=0

at that thread i noticed the people sp[eaking out would be sueD
LOOKS LIKE BIG TOOBACCO..
IS JUST THROWING OUT SOME FOOLPROOF PROOF AND WATCHING TO SEE WHO RISES TO/THE BAIT..FISCAL FISHING..[SIZING UP YOUR PUblic spokespersons

its
time to sue the rot that sells the lies rorts[i mean bust em UP REAL BAD,,FINANCIALLY][iys their lie that feeds this ongoing oppression by the mihjy of state..to sin tax moral choice

declare the injury..you freaking judge and jury
we never hurt you/yet you for some reason think my bad habbit is your business..screw you busy bodies get a life.[smokers and non smokers get the same rates of the same cancers[ie its not 'smoking'..related.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16263&page=0

reveals smoking actually is a medicine
but haters love their hate more than fact.

beware ye that lay down with the fleabags..
some dogs are gods..others pure mongral
BY THEIR FLATTERING LIPS WILL YE KNOW THEM..but fixed minds
only intend to fix our minds..ie fix others not themselves...[TOO PERfect]

its a global scam
THE COMPO WILL BE HUGE
yet we smokers never get a cent[its our pack a day that pays your rent.

SO FAR ABC.AND THE PROJECT JUMPED IN..WITH NAMES

Parrot,

You are really completely blind in one eye. I used the exact wording against Nhob that he used against me, and yet my repeat gained your attention and not Nhob's original unjustified accusation.

If you truely wish to revert to civilised discourse, perhaps you would care to take to task Nhoj who appears unable to post without an ad hominem attack. (But as a lefty, I guess he is safe from your criticism). Secondly, look in the mirror, "Your nasty, vicious, judgmental psyche" is hardly taking the high ground.

I am willing to restrain myself as long as a certain intemperate attack poodle is muzzled.

P.S.

Back on the subject, any company develops a branding to differentiate its product from others, so that it can charge more than "no name" brands. The loss of cigarette brands will certainly hurt the big tobacco companies as buyers migrate to unknown brands based on price, and there is clear evidence that this is happening.

It is entirely possible that the big tobacco companies are losing market share and sales even whilst total cigarette sales increase. This is exactly what the Australian, is proposing, based on research made available to them. SK refutes this based on ABS data.

In spite of what many on the left would try and imply, while the Australian has a conservative slant, it very seldom gets its facts wrong. I have waited to see whether there is a retraction, or any article in say the SMH or reputable journal which refutes the Australian story, but have yet to see anything

SHADOW[AS SEEN IN A FAVOURABLE LIGHT/QUOTE..<<..I am willing to restrain myself>>

WE HAVE OFTEN BEEN ON OPOSING sides..of many a de-baIT
point being/your often too restrained often too 'nice'[wrong word]..sm is often'as'not..kinder than i can be[i tend to take things personally]

where he puts it his way..<<>.as long as a certain intemperate attack poodle is muzzled.>>i prefer to do it my way

as the poo dle=[in tHIS CASE=]BACKWARDS NHOJ
logiccly poodlenhoj=john el doop..[dupe..in the poop]
but he makes no claim to FACT NOR SOURCE..SO WE IGNORE THE god/in\dog

its more fun to make things up..[i know i wasa known as john..from the age of 17[when a rockhampton copper changed johan=john..OBVIOUSLY OUR NHOJ=JOHN..hates being .just another john..possibly coped too many john jokes..sat in the john..hiding from his john..wakking his bonny jonny

now if i was clever..i would rewrite it
but im not as clever as..the number one ngoJ
its just sad he seems such a biassed big*goted johnny come late-LIE.

OH WELL/LET HAVE FUN WITH THE JOHN*NHOJ.
HA JOHNNY COME LATELY.. \stan likes that one
where you been smokey stan[the man]..walking to and fro

woe smokey man
way tue ghoo..ho
hey ho jo..wheres ya john..[oh dear stan/\nats..nhoj/\john

yet id rather fLirt wit the skirt
BUT THE TIME FOR THAT SEEMS LONG GONE

DOGONE/*\ENOGOD

I LIKE THE GUIDES I got[from hell]
but their like loose cannon..once..ya pull the go string
the opposing forces repell each other..and the cannon and the balls..blow appart

who owns the plain packaging art?
who holds the design patent..my all*stars..said d0nt ask questions today?

BUT ISNT IT FAIR WE KNOW?
WHO RAISED THE ISSUE WITH ROXIE?
who framed the legislation[dont all true artists sign their art?

who arte the art?
asks him of the *hart*

yeah we know johan/we all hate saturndays
but the satan-ists of saT*turn//must have their day of rest..its due day

WELCOME TO SATAN[STAn]-day
stop giving famiy secrets/away

yell me is smoking the true gateway?
DAMM/THE-LOOSE CANNON..FULL STEAM..[SMOKE]..Ahead

Shadow Minister,

"In spite of what many on the left would try and imply, while the Australian has a conservative slant, it very seldom gets its facts wrong. I have waited to see whether there is a retraction, or any article in say the SMH or reputable journal which refutes the Australian story, but have yet to see anything"

Yes, it's interesting that a paper with "a conservative slant" would put up that particular story. In the past, it's headlined stories attacking the consensus on climate change - one that it was forced to retract.

http://watchingthedeniers.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/graham-lloyd-youve-done-it-again-every-article-requires-a-mandatory-correction/

There's also a well-known correlation in the way conservative publications and think tanks have treated issues such as climate change and smoking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants_of_Doubt

"The book lists similar tactics in each case: "discredit the science, disseminate false information, spread confusion, and promote doubt"

As you say, SM...we'll see.

P,

With all due respect, you have just proved my point by needing to go back a year to find an example of an error. With the 24hr news cycle (which means that information is "news" only for a day or even hours), the time available for scrutiny is limited, and while reasonably high standards can be maintained, errors do slip through given the hundreds of articles printed every day by Newscorp.

Other news organisations such as Fairfax and the ABC don't have clean records on this issue either. Notably the string of lawsuits the ABC has lost for defamation.

As for "discredit the science, disseminate false information, spread confusion, and promote doubt", the Left is hardly innocent on this score with blogs like New Matilda, and the IA which are notorious for posting polemics with scant regards for the facts.

FROM THE CORRUPT WIKILINK/SPIN

..<<..Merchants of Doubt is a 2010 book by the American historians of science Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway.>>

its a book..bY..A BELIEVER..
*KNOWING..HOW TO..DECEIVE

<<..It identifies parallels>>..BY INFERENCE
THAT EASY..CAN BE REVERSE co-INTELL..[EXPOSING
WHAT THEY DO..rather than we/to\them..but lets read on

identify//parallels//..<<>.between the climate change debate>>

ya ready/for the majic/spell..diss-spell"

[watch]

PARALLELS.. between..the climate change
yeah great..but parallels of a debate..paralleled..to..this debate[is distracting from the facts this debate needs//facts\\not methodology

but the baSIC THESIS..reveals/method
..\means/..way...\..*IS..that..;..*SCIENCE LIES*

THE Proof*[re-proof]..of ozonE-HOLE WARmING..OR RATHER COOLING OR RATHER CLIMATE CHANGE..IS BUILT ON HUGE*..'SCIENCE'/LIES..LIKE CONCensus=97%..is bullshhhh it...plus all the other 'science lies'..

so rather..than refute\their own/lies..lied..LOL
they refute..[WAIT5LT].the lies..*they used..for
the smokers/OZONE/CARBON/TRADING/WARMING COOLING-tax

let it guilt..=..tax..
oh-zone hole=tax
smoking=tax
politics\tax

first..;..the corrupted science =guilt\../then the payoff 'funding'..lobby money..further study..paid for with.,
(*..a..new tax*]

ITS THE SAme/smokkers/science scam game yet again
govts LIE..GET/their tax hooks..into IT yet..

heres why..new taxes=guilt-tax
tax the sin=new sin taxes
like speed fines..except..your not even driving[BUT/BY\ASSosiation]

<<>.and earlier >>staged<<..controversies..over tobacco smoking,..acid rain..and the hole in the ozone layer.>>

classic/science-scams..

<<>.Oreskes..and Conway*..>>[are/not\alone]..<<>.write that in each case*.."keeping the controversy alive"*..by spreading doubt>>OR HOPE/SHAME/CREDIT\BLAME*..

<<and confusion>>ASHES../RISES\..A*big-new/sin-shame-guilt/tax]

<<..after a scientific consensus..>>lol>>,,..<<had been reached,..was the basic strategy..of those..opposing..<<prepossessing..this/action>>>

or..even better
those proposing..a new big tax..on carbon based*life
taxing thin air/..while ignoring..all the other real pollution of environment air/waters foods..[false science/like the lie of genus evolution/like the lie of no cancer cure[reiche harmonics kills most diseases in minutes

no more medical industry
NO MORE RICH RESEARCH GRANTS
WE CURED ALL DiSEASE A CENTURY AGO
YET TODAY YOU STILL PAY MOST YA WAGES SO YA DONT GET SICK

OUR GOVT AND OUR INDUSTRIES..decietfully/collude,,to hide..what really..*MAKE'$$..*U$$$$ ...SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS*ICK..[sic*]

THEY PUT HEAVEY METAL/IN YOUR WATER/soil\AIR/BUT WE TAX CO2?..[huh?]
TAX SMOKERS..ITS THE SAME SCIENCE*GOD HEAD..*LIES..read the link..but read between the lines..its much bigger than you can think
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/enron-2-0-wall-street-wants-manipulate-state-energy-markets-just-like-manipulates-every-market.html
read/to\the very/end*..

they play us..by pushing our buttons
its ever so supple..but we all been 'GROOMED'..so govt can sin tax the sinners[the sinner never is you]..then one day..they lied about you too.

SM,

First up, I do have to apologise for singling you out. I didn't note nhoj's previous post - will remind my self to scroll up to convos I've missed.

Regarding - "As for "discredit the science, disseminate false information, spread confusion, and promote doubt", the Left is hardly innocent on this score with blogs like New Matilda, and the IA which are notorious for posting polemics with scant regards for the facts."

You are hilarious...those publications are far more likely to ferret out the truth that MSM conveniently glosses over...which is how we got landed with this dud govt in the first place.

Note IA's exhaustive investigation of Kathy Jackson which was ignored by MSM (except for a brief article once on the ABC site)

http://www.theage.com.au/national/whistleblower-used-1m-in-union-funds-20140605-39lxl.html

"Self-professed union whistleblower Kathy Jackson used $1 million in members' funds to pay off two personal credit cards she claims to have used on work expenses between 2000 and 2011, despite having a union credit card.

Fairfax Media can also reveal documents provided to the Health Services Union by the Commonwealth Bank in the past few weeks show that between 2007 and 2010, Ms Jackson withdrew a further $220,000 of union funds in ''cash'' using HSU cheques."

More to come, no doubt.

And Graham Lolyd has written many misleading climate articles for The Australian, sticking to the denier's view doubting scientific consensus along conservative lines.

(Btw, what do you make of Abbott cancelling important meetings on this trip?)
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/confusion-clouds-tony-abbotts-washington-meetings/story-fni0fha6-1226946285710?sv=2833e0ef17b284ce6900cb5d87ed8901

Agronomist,

As a retailer most of my life, albeit, not tobacco, , there is little doubt that the whole plain packaging has caused confusion for retailers as every packet looks the same.

Furthermore, youth don't buy them, il cover that later.

So when someone askes for a pack of say winny blues, first, the seller has to hope they have been put in their right place, and second, they have to show the buyer so that they are satisfied with what they have been sold. This all takes time, and time is money.

Also, as costs increase, addicts will often search out a cheaper brand, because there's only so much they can redirect from their budget. So comparing dollars as a gauge can distort the truth.

Now we agree that The whole plain packaging fiasco was aimed at preventing our youth from starting the habit, but, the majority of youth that start smoking, bum their smokes, they don't buy them, so, why should they care what brand they are.

Then of cause there is the law suit, which, even if we win, will cost millions if not billions to defend, which by the way, we don't have.

The sad part about all governments is that they just don't have the talent needed to get things right. They are all guilty of shockers and always will be, but certainly no more so than the last six years if labor. If so, carry on regardless.

Poirot, are you suggesting Tony has not stopped the boats?

As for the budget, I note that not one labor/green supporter has an alternative, other than more of the same that got us into this mess in the first place. Unless you're one of those who insist there's nothing to worry about.

One things for certain, that being that if the boats stop coming, labor will have a huge sell to get back in, because the first thing they will have to do is reignite the spending, which brings with it their appalling record of waste.

The LIES keep coming thick and fast from this fascist clique.
No one believes a word the murdoch rags put out unless they are brain damaged. This "story" has already been shown to be lies and distortions multiple times.
Does anybody really believe tobacco industry research? Is anybody really that stupid? The industry that "proved" tobacco does not cause cancer and that nicotine is not addictive? The industry that made/makes millions killing its customers?
Not suprisingly all the LIARS are out in force trying to convince us that black is white, excrement smells like perfume and that big glowing thing outside all day is the moon.
Shallow miniature and his ilk will believe anything, no matter how outlandish, if it supports their mindless dogma of greed, selfishness and hatred.

Interesting to see the mention of the black market being around for years.

Two things come to mind here, One, the price difference is now huge, and Two, online shopping is fast catching up to retail shopping. Both these factors influence the black market.

However nothing confirms the underlying flaw in labors policy quite like the fact it was aimed at our young smokers, most of whom can't even by them because a large portion of smokers start prior to age 18.

Dear Poirot,

Yes it has been a while, since our TLOAs I believe. The break must have done us both some good and I see we have become a little more selective on the topics we engage in, understandably so in the current climate. I think keeping it fun might be the key and you seem to have that in hand :)

Dear Shadow Minister,

I am going to, for the sake of the exercise, set aside the fact that we are attempting to weigh the evidence of the Australian Bureau of Statistics or the figures provided by infoView in a study commissioned by British American Tobacco.

Let us take their argument that even though the overall spend on tobacco products has decreased it is purely because there is a trend toward cheaper cigarettes. And let's take their figure of how many extra individual cigarettes (0.3%) have been sold over the last year as a given. The Australian population increased by 1.8% in the same period.

Therefore, even accepting everything they say, the only conclusion is that there has been a decrease in per capita consumption of cigarette and other tobacco products and it follows, based on the claims they made, that plain packaging works.

I will need you to tell me why this is not the case.

patriot/i visited your link
but it shifts before i can read it
so i edited it down..to its main bits
[]believe it/or\not..its good-sign.by design.
the guilty..are concerned..new way-day..on the way.

quote..

Arrangements had been made for the Prime Minister to meet Jack Lew, the US Treasury Secretary. He was also scheduled to hold talks with Christine Lagarde, managing director of the International Monetary Fund, and World Bank president Jim Yong Kim.

The meetings were locked into the diaries of those key officials. Then the arrangements were cast into doubt by Abbott’s office.

the whole G20 exercise is costing Australia almost half a billion dollars — $476.7 million to be precise. That is an indication of its importance.

reform of the IMF is one of the items on the summit agenda.

Lew’s advice will play a major role in how Barack Obama approaches the summit and its success will depend heavily on an engaged US President.

given America’s influence on the world economy, previous prime ministers have regarded meeting the US Treasury Secretary as a high priority

Abbott is not taking the G20 summit as seriously as he should “and that’s a worry”.

There is plenty of room for speculation about the reasons top-level economic meetings seem to be treated as optional in Abbott’s Washington program. Some critics will home in on his 2003 comment that left the then treasurer, Peter Costello, hugely unimpressed.>>

OUG "yet we smokers never get a cent[its our pack a day that pays your rent."

Well do yourself and your health a favour then OUG, and give up the disgusting habit, and then these mad theories of yours will just disappear...

I don't care what government did what, I just want to see smoking slowly die the painful death it has caused so many to endure over the years.

I hope I live to see smoking die forever...

Suseonline, I just read your last post ..... is it true? One Under No God is a *DRUGGIE*? Oh my Gawd!! Over the past 100 years, more people have died from the drug tobacco than any other drug.

Imagine that, One Under No God has such disrespect for thy Lord God he's become a druggie. I'm afraid the "Lake of Fire" awaits him. Yes, usually the most fundamentalist Christians are the "least" Christian of all.

[Deleted for abuse.]

One Under No God wrote, "if you.. think.. because of fukkin you.. im giving em up suzie screw you".

One Under No God ...... I see you are preparing thyself for the "Lake of Fire". Enjoy your time there.

diCONECTED/[DISLIKED/DISSLEXIC-NONG-JOHN/QUOTE..<<..One Under No God is a *DRUGGIE*?>>

gawd..dont he love that
but lol watch his dislexia..interact*

<<..Oh my Gawd!!..>>

remove extra quotation markS
THEN SLIPS IN A HUGE BOASSED LIE*..TO WIT/JSALF WIT\PLEASE NOTE/QUOTE.>>

<<>.Over the past 100 years,..>>
DOPE HAS ONLY EXISTED SINCE DU[PONT INVENTED NYON/AND SOUGHT HEMP MADE ILLEGAL..1929..[SO DOPE..ISMNT THAT OLD RETARD]

SO THE BULLSHHH HIT...if aimed at the doper remark
cause i long ago gave up that addictive too bacco blow.

<<..more people have died..from the drug tobacco..>>

please..little firl..joanne..the dreug..'in ' TOOBACCO=NICOTEEN
and the drug in cannabis in cannabinol..[pleaSe get wise child/your looking like a fool

THE TOOBACCO..'DRUG,,..died/more<<..than any other drug.>>

i await proof of claim
cause this claim..is insane

<<..Imagine that, One Under No God has such disrespect>>

beware lest ye entertaint angels..[instead]
y0ur disrepect..is bassed on error
mine is based in fact

<<...for thy Lord God..he's become a druggie.>>

no matie/i became outcast/hated/dispised/shat upon/sPAT UPON..BY EVEN MY BEST 'MATE'/BUT SMOKE HAS BEEN THERE FOR ME//i blow out smoke/not my brains,,dope numbs down the anger in my brain/fed by demons/like as you/harmless ignorant..persistant..

<<..I'm afraid the "Lake of Fire" awaits him.>>

U/R\CORRECT
IN/THE\NEXT..LIFE..there is no smoke
aND MY PASSIONS[YOU]..

AFTER DEATH..OUR PASSIONS/HAUNT-IS..YOU/WILL RECEIVE MINE FULL WRATH/UNDRUGGED PASSION BURNING YOU LIKE FIRE..INTO PYRE...BUT FOR..the smoke.

but endless living plants..each unique..but its best you do as you chose and ignore the stuff you gpy no clue about

>>.Yes,usually the most fundamentalist Christians
are the "least"..Christian of all>>

OjHN/QUOTE.<<>.

oh/no..im\the /mew..runner?
im not christian..neither..ya batting zip...zip it.

OK, let’s recap.

Data from ABS shows a 3% decrease in total spend on tobacco products between December 2012 and March Q 2014.

Taxes on cigarettes have increase since December 2012 by 17.8% (4.7% then 12.5%).

Therefore to have any increase in number of cigarettes purchased would require everyone to have switched to brands that are 21.7% cheaper. So where is the evidence that has happened? It is simply not there.

By the way, why won’t industry release the report this 0.3% increase in cigarette sales is taken from? What are they hiding?

OUG is a "Freeman". This explains most things.

My dad died of a massive coronary at the age of 52.
He was a heavy smoker, and his life-style left a lot to be
desired. I miss him dreadfully. However, it's often difficult
to get people to change their habits and life-styles.
Which of course doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Look how
long it's taken us to get anywhere with exposing the detrimental
effects of cigarettes and smoking. The tobacco lobby has always
been a very powerful one. and in most industrialised
democracies "wedge politics" deliberately creates a division between
sectoral interests. That's the name of the game.

Hence, interest group self-interest and antagonism between
citizens permeates policy-making. The much-tounted notion
in liberal democracies that governments govern for all, is not
believed by significant numbers of voters. It's all too
obvious that governments actually don't do this.
This destroys trust. There is "them" and "us", rather than simply
"us," and much effort is employed in partisan politics which
could be much better utilised in more positive pursuits.

As far as smoking is concerned, plain packaging was a good idea.
And a step in the right direction. Of course so is education.
We need to continue to do
something tangible, precise, or formal, to arrive at
consensus. We need patience and persistence, to influence
government. But, saving lives will make it worth it in the
end.

Dear Johan (OUG),

Don't get upset by the advice that Suse was trying to give you.
She, as a nurse, has your best interests at heart.
Those of us who have shared this forum with you for so long -
worry and care about you and want only what's best - especially
for your health.

Take care.

Agronomist wrote, "OUG is a "Freeman"

So is this the religion he belongs to, the Freeman Faith Assembly? http://www.ccel.us/churches.ch9.html

Gee, that religion is full of crazy wakkos. Let's just hope he doesn't belong to THAT religion.

DAMM THEM WITH ANT-BRAINS..BUT THE DYSLECIC SHADOW..nojos

WRONG AGAIN YA RETARD
]
HERE
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=WFS+ONE+UNDER+GOD&i

EAT YA HEART OUT..AND IM NOT A MEMBER..
by choice..i was awarded life membership/

till i killed oug..and became johannine
but the atheist high jacked the movement

there are those..like me..who believe our rights come by god
that we validate..this..in life and/in the queens courts/jails.

and those atheist..'freemen'..that it..magicly comes by demanding it..from coppers at 3 am in the..or explaining the lawfull meaning of their[the law framers]..legal sounding words..that have no weight,,in law.

YOU WILL JUST GET LOST IN IT CHILD

BUT I CAN SEE HOW THESE THINGS CAN MISSLEAD YOU*..ATHEIST..BONDED SERF'S.

So, I see One Under No God has been unwilling to name his religion.

He posts links to Freemasonry (which is not a religion), says he has life membership, then mentioned he murdered someone and mentioned atheism and police. Ha ha.

So One Under No God, using just a maximum of "several words only" answer this..... what's your religion?

Come on, at least "try" to answer the question properly.

SNOWDOXE1..<<..So,.I see One Under No God
has been unwilling..to name his religion.>>

PLEASE..DEAR BOY..read the federalconstitution116
state may make no law/regarding religion..but i aint got none
truth be known/im of the lost tribes/my pagan prist parents were granted leave over the forrests[i hold under heraldry the head og the deer]
plus the golden horn of plenty[via issiah].
my colours are gold and blue...our motto is 'of the hart*
we were a matriarchaltclan..il we beca,e the people/of\the boo/k

i WAS RAISE ATHEIST/Till i realised scvience faked ther moon landing[so to speak].

<<>.He posts links to Freemasonry..>>
my father was the sun of a freemason/i rejected the burden
i believe this is satans realm/and we all dID A REALLY BAD THING[GOT REJECTED BY BOTH HEAVEN[AND]HELL/JUST TO GET INCARBNATED HERE/WHERE THE FALLEN ARE CAST DOWN TO[MERCYFULLY..WITHOUT [PREVIOUS MEMORY BURDEN]
<<..(which is not a religion)<<..

DONT TELL THE ATHIESTS/BUT WITHOUT 'RELIGION'/GOD
THEY ONLY GOT WHAT WE GOT/THAT TIME THEY COME FOR US*[OUR WITS}

<<., says he has life membership,>>

TWice/i, allready on borrowed time.
but then arnt we all

>>/ then mentioned he murdered>>his own possesion[oug]

<<..someone..>>

np a 'person'..created..under the wfs charta
a personum//psuedo--caracature/TOKEN..CREATION

<<..and mentioned atheism and police. Ha ha.>>

ha,,so?


<<..So One Under No God,..using just a maximum..
of "several words only"..answer this.......what's your religion?>>

religions deign..religious practice
i..dont practice//every thing..i do=4 real..
i dont pray[god is there helping me form..my[our]..very thought/desire..[god is the living force sustaining every life its living

,my religion is studying living/to better know my god

<<..Come on,..at least "try"..to answer the question properly>>

i replied..it Proper..I DONT..GOT ONE RELIGION
LAST COURT HEARING..for the FIRST TIME I TOOK OATH
[ON THE KORAN/AND\THE BIBLE..HELD THEM IN A TOWEL..OVER MY HEART OBER MY HEAD..and violated mathew5;20-48.23;..3-39[PLUS JAMES5;8-20..2;422..3/ALL..4'-all]..but/that-was..to unite/the son)+{the moon]

Trying to use such a pathetic thing as plain packaging against a Government and its policies is ridiculous !
All the other taxes you mentioned, were sustainable and divided around to everybody, including Big business fairly ! Abbott's policies on the other hand are akin to a mixed up version of Robin Hood ! Steal from the poor to give to the rich ! And he calls it fair ?

Ok, I think I'll leave OUG alone from now on. I suspect he's a sufferer of advanced Aspergers Syndrome, which is mild up to mid range autism. He can't be blamed for that. So I'll not be hard on him anymore.

Good to hear, nhoj.

I admit I'm prone to explode periodically to runner's gross insinuations, but there's nothing to be gained from baiting.

My son is diagnosed high-functioning ASD - fairly mild. He's a great young man - and a budding historian.

its ok//foxey..the old retarded john[backwords]
is typically walking backwards[backpeddling]..likE THEY ALLWAYS DO
http://rss.infowars.com/20140605_Thu_Alex.mp3

ANYHOW DEAR FOXIE..THAT SEARCH BACKWARDS JOHN MADE ME DO
TURNED UP A GEM..[SEEMS I MADE TAX ACCOUNTANT HISTERY]

anyhow poor boy..nojo..no go..poor poor boy
stuck his nose i the wrong hole...name calls and runs wee wee weeee..all the way down his leg..no proof poor aloof boy/girl\teenager[fairy queen?

ok dislexic john..nice bringing ya down to size
how tall you are//one never knew poop could be staKKED THAT HEIGHT

YOUR WRAPPER CLEARLY IS A SLIGHTER SHADE Of tab
the wurdy/nurdy..wurd-ho's proofs let him dowm..MOUTHed reproofs.. TOO BIG FOR HIS..tiny-biased..MIND

WINDS ONE UP/THEN RUINS AWAY AS IT ALL UNRAVELES[UNWINDS]/WE HAvE A WHINer/minor whiner.light weight/even his brain farts dont make the starter weight.

weal as urine
as yellow as toilet snow..that scummy stuff..or bravado..on the run*

see ya backwards j0hn..time to move on
[he must have read the 9 th search return.]

poor boy..out of his depth..king
of the mountain fell down/flat on his own lack/of\fact..
its a disgrace..the coward..a wurdY Opinionated..troll-HAwker..of loose bias..read lies..the witless one runs hides avoids..and cries.

one/under]sighs..

As I have said on this discussion site "Is someone willing to give cigarettes the butt?" - after when about five years my father (who was a smoker) started to have a heart attack whilst driving and later collapsed in a GP clinic - and has since given up smoking all together.

I had tried to get him and my mother to give up since I was about eight years of age. Too many people have seen these graphic images too much who are smokers and are now simply used to them - but to link it to increases in smoking is purely unintelligent.

I stand by my comments that cigarettes should be phased out in Australia and I am waiting for OUG to tell me: "that the case against smoking based on bogus statistics and downright lies." Direct quote.

Sorry but doesn't this discussion prove that more needs to be done to get people away from smoking and strong action is the only way to go?

Nathan, I feel the current anti smoking methods are working, and will continue to work. If cigarettes are "phased out" that effectively means banning/prohibition. Prohibition NEVER works regarding recreational drugs. It just creates a bigger black market ... just look at the alcohol prohibition in the USA in the 1920s, it was a DISMAL failure.

Currently cigarette smoking has been demonised and discredited, and this has worked quite well. If people feel ashamed to smoke, then they are FAR less likely to smoke.

The 2 most harmful drugs known to society are alcohol and tobacco. If alcohol was also demonised and discredited in the same way that tobacco is, alcohol abuse would be far less. It would be tougher to achieve though, because of the EXTREME power of the alcohol industry, but it IS achievable.

Banning recreational drugs like alcohol and tobacco is not the way to go. The way to go is a combination of factual education regarding harmful affects and social demonisation and discrediting of the drugs.

Foxy, thanks for your kind words to OUG, but anyone who swears at me like that has lost any respect I ever had.
Obviously, using language like that is ok on this forum?

He needs far more help than any of us can give.
I give up anyway and will not respond to any posts from him again.
See you all on another thread...

WE SEE/THE TWO FACES.OF SUE..THE ONE.\.SHE PROJECTS\TO THE WORLD
caring..but it seems caring..only if your not\swearing/NOT-SMOKING

[thats/the bit.-from the hypocrite oath..no one taks about]..the last 16 pure blood abos..[in tasmania]..were slow\killed/by 6 docters..[IN/JUST-32/YEARS]..so the higher..the docter/PATIENT/ratio/thE/MORE..THEm/swearing fools..get killed

[SORRY/WE\..JUST..HAPPEN..TO/DIE]

but sue/thinks she\is mothere terrasa[who
was more like nurse crarzhit./as she believed suffering/pain\was good for the soul.[BAD/TEACHING].

you must forgive/the nurse cratzagitz\of the world/their service gets rid of them/nasty swearing Germs/like me..\the nerve of my nemisis[who runs away..from talking aboutwhy one in one huindred hospitalisations..is for adverse reaction/to\perscribed drugs

[1..in 10..results in death.

but the money..is so gooD//the job so easy
just..slip em..their midnight cUppa..and problerm fixed/by morning

so tell me nurse...how many..angry/smelly..smokers you fixed personally?..its not healing...its a sign of bad doctering...[but even worse..if the nurse kills you....in the dark of night..no one can hear you/and as teqnicly..they[and/you]..are under doctors 'authority'..any cause of death..is accepted/as..docter..writes-it.

so lets see..how many ex smokers died..*from/THE-ACT\OF/smoking
smoking isnt..a cause of death..smoking is an act..of lighting plant matter/to obtain instant pain relief..

i was only last year..put in hospital/oVERNIGHT\i died..as i said in butts out thread..i asked before..not to be revived/but that..was ignored..And..nok said revive...SO..IM STILL..IN HELL.

point being/that was. only.the first d..NEAR-eath/the second was after they 'blew'..a vein..sticking into my body\such heavey antibiotic//that two teeth broke..and 3 fillings fell out...[+blown-vein]..i hate docters..AND DONT..LIKE NURSES..

32/billion..is pure-lie
[why]..the..lie?

to say..,my./smoking...is taking..your hospital bed away
wont happen again..i will accept..my teeth as docters[And useless nurses..made them to be..]..

its only now..\im trying to get..\diabetus tatt/im eating sweets..next im going for rotting my liver/but only two gRAND TO LIVE ON..TILL IM DEAD../ONE WAY\OR.THE OTHER...my/hurt-anger..comsumes..me.[this/pain-too..will end.]

IM OVER/WERE NURSES/ARE*more\HOLYier..THAN THOU
THAT THEIR..ohhh..so caring..[like cops/\without heart\but..lotsa-drugs.s/trust\money.karma.]

i seen/your workings..[western medicine=sickness/not\wellness]..its crook as toobrook..the war..on smokers hasnt reduced the rates at which..we get the diseases..'ATTRIBUTABLE'..TO SMOKING...

tHEN..ITS BAD DOCTERING...IF..I BEGIN..A TOPIC..I KNOW
/WILL HURupset/anger..*YOU..is it right..u.have right/of reply..?

grayham wont/let..a bad nursing thread..get-in
yet..these smoking ones..once every 3 weeks.why..cause someones/paid to write them...[ie..its/all\....lobby]

I see this thread has deteriorated in slagging off smokers and smoking which is completely against the point.

My father died at age 58 from emphysema, which is a really terrible way to go, and what is clear is that there are no health benefits from smoking whatsoever, and the expectation is that it will shorten your life by a decade or two and you can expect a decreased quality of life followed by a nasty death. Now that we are all in happy agreement that smoking needs to be stopped the question is how to do it.

Smoking has been decreasing rapidly from laws that make smoking expensive, unattractive and antisocial. The question whether the additional plain packaging laws have further accelerated this decline or reversed is yet to be resolved but I ask yet another:

If the Australian is correct and the PPL has slowed or reversed the decline in smoking will the left represented by Paul, Nhoj, etc support their appeal?

Nhoj, you are unbelievable in your obsession with attacking fellow posters, with your latest taunt being One under No god!

What kind of rubbish is that!

While I often flick past OUG posts, I don't dislike the person, nor do I revert to name calling as do you.

I'm going to try to start a trend, and not bother to respond to anymore of your posts as you are a very rude and disrespectful poster in my opinion.

SHADOW/QUOTE..<<..My father..died..from emphysema,>>
http://www.lung.org/lung-disease/copd/resources/facts-figures/COPD-Fact-Sheet.html

pleas..how many..of these/apply?

<<.. *..Other risk factors of COPD include exposure to
pollution, smoke and occupational dusts and
chemicals,..*heredity,..a history of childhood respiratory infections and socioeconomic status...>>>

[COMPROMISED-IMMUNE SYSTEM/Overactive..is]..all*..astma/respiratory..irritant*s..fumes gass/per-fumes/preservatives/paiNt/pool-chemical Diesal particulate/even radioactivity..AND SKIN ABSORBTION.

<<>.*Occupational exposure to/industrial pollutants..also increases the risk for COPD...One study found/that the fraction of COPD attributed*..to work*..was estimated*..as 19.2% overall..[and 31.1% among never smokers.]>>

HANG-ON?
LETS/SAY..80/PERCENT..DIED..[BY..OTHER FACTORS/INCLUDING SMOKING*}
but smoking..taen..from/non-smoking=smoking*..THUS ONLY 12%..OF EMPHASEMA=SMOKING'RELATED'[excluding..LOL..OTHER FACTORS

12 PERCENT tops*
AND INDUSTRY ADMITS..UP TO 30 pERCENT*

*<<Alpha1 antitrypsin deficiency-related (AAT) emphysema..is caused by the inherited deficiency of a protein..called alpha1-antitrypsin (AAT) or alpha1-protease inhibitor. AAT,..*produced by the liver,>>

LIVERDAMAGE/FROM..BOOZE/

<<aat=>.is..-a "lung protector."..[In the absence of AAT,
emphysema is almost inevitable.,,*..]..It is responsible for only 2-3% of the emphysema in the United States.

*..An estimated 100,000 Americans,..*primarily of northern European descent, have AAT deficiency emphysema...Another 20 million Americans carry a single deficient gene..that causes Alpha-1 and may pass the gene onto their children.*

*..One study suggested..that there are at least
*116 million..carriers among all racial groups, worldwide.>>

forbid?.these/116,000,000..ALONE..
>>from<<..all RISK-FACTORS*>>*

<<..*..Symptoms of AAT deficiency..*include shortness of breath..and decreased exercise capacity.*[KEY]..They rarely appear before 25 years of age and sometimes..{PLEASE-NOTE/ACCIDENTAL/DELETION}..never develop,...*who smoke,>>[NOn-smokers]

smokers..<<.symptoms occur between 32 and 41 years of age on average...Smoking significantly increases the severity*..of emphysema in*,,AAT-deficient*..individuals[116/million;estimated]

Burden

* An estimated 715,000 hospital discharges were reported in 2010; a discharge rate of 23.2 per 100,000 population. COPD is an important cause of hospitalization in our aged population. Approximately 65% of discharges were in the 65 years and older population in 2010.17

* A Lung Association survey revealed that half of all COPD patients (51%) say their condition limits their ability to work. It also limits them in normal physical exertion (70%), household chores (56%), social activities (53%), sleeping (50%) and family activities (46%).18

* In 2010, the cost to the nation for COPD was projected*..to be approximately $49.9 billion, including $29.5 billion in direct health care expenditures, $8.0 billion in indirect morbidity costs and $12.4 billion in indirect mortality costs.>>

smoking owns..AT/BEST*..up-to/..12 perdcent/of that..yet all the burden/blame*..NEVEr/credit\ever..you haters..just/HATE..cause hate has blinded you/govt taught-you/to..hate..me*[personally]

Dear Shadow Minister,

Your title for this thread was “Plain packaging....Labor boosts smoking rates!”, but even the Australian's article does not support that contention. It's own figures, or rather those commissioned by British American Tobacco, show that after taking population increase into account the rates have fallen rather than risen.

Therefore, unless you have access to other figures outside theirs, you should withdraw the contention as it is patently false.

Also in the opening post you asserted “the plain packaging laws that in a single stroke have managed to reverse the 2 decade long downward trend in smoking.” Yet reversing a downward trend must by definition mean it is now going up. There is no evidence to show this is happening and plenty to show the opposite.

In your latest post you have softened your rhetoric a little; “The question whether the additional plain packaging laws have further accelerated this decline or reversed is yet to be resolved”. Are we to assume you have retreated from your very strong opening assertions? Perhaps stating that for the record would be in order.

You ask; “If the Australian is correct and the PPL has slowed or reversed the decline in smoking will the left represented by Paul, Nhoj, etc support their appeal?” I think you may have meant repeal but nonetheless may I put to you the same question, if future figures show a sustained decline in smoking rates will you applaud the efforts of the Labour Party in securing this reform?

Finally my great concern is that the tobacco industry and the Murdoch press would only have seen fit to forward this story if they thought it was going to assist lobbying to have the reform quashed. With ex-Senator Minchin, a person demonstrably in the pocket of the Tobacco industry and still influential within the Liberal Party, on their side this may well have been an opening salvo. My prediction is the Abbott government will move to amend this legislation, perhaps not in this term but the again who knows.

Nhoj,

In response to phasing out smoking and it working or not working - so what. It means all people cannot buy these toxic products over the shelves of a basic shop or a supermarket, which is easy to do. It is like buying a loaf of bread or some fruit or vegetables. People generally don't do that on the black market.

If some people have to break Australia's laws - and face court action as a result so be it. Existing smokers have become used this packaging - otherwise they would have quit a long time ago. Simple.

JUST/IN\CASE..you missed this..key reveal
lets repeat it

<<...<<>.*Occupational exposure>>

this means industries exposure/of..<< workers to/industrial pollutants..also increases the risk for COPD...>>

CODP=PLURESY

<<..One study found/that\..the fraction of COPD [pluresY]..
attributed*..to work*..was estimated*..as 19.2% overall..>>

THATS INDUSTRY/ADMITTING IT*..causes[exposED..19.2..PERCENT/OF THOSE WHO GOT PLURESY]

NUT WAIT..IT GETS BETTER

<<..[and 31.1% among never smokers.]>>died from pluresy

HANG-ON?..69/PERCENT..0f..plurecy....not..gotten from work
so..69 percent..]*DIED..[BY..OTHER..FACTORS/..[presumably..INCLUDING SMOKING*}//but a clear third[monsmokers..died from work/exposure..*alone*

but smoking..[HAS ITS OWN NUMBERS/19.2]..PLEASE NOTE THEY ARE *lower*..numbers..but give a good examination of the result of exposure..[32 percent/non smokers/19/percent smokers..GOT PLURICY]
SMOKING PREVENTED 12 PERVENT OF PLURECY.

taKen..from/non-smoking\32%=19%/smoking*..
OR WAS PREVENTED/BY SMOKING..[PLEASE EXPLAIN IT?]

OR..THUS ONLY 12%..OF EMPHASEMA=SMOKING'RELATED'..[excluding..LOL..OTHER FACTORS-32$..TO INDUSTRY[ignoring the protected smokers.]..the

12 PERCENT tops*
AND INDUSTRY ADMITS..UP TO 30 pERCENT*y are 3 fold the problem/of\smoking

if ya dont get it
make me explain..it to ya closed minds again..surelyyou other thinkers can see?..whats going on..what do them numbers say>..32%..industry causation/dont mesh/with the opening salvo*

be fare judge the proof yourself
http://www.lung.org/lung-disease/copd/resources/facts-figures/COPD-Fact-Sheet.html

JUST REMEMBER ADMITTED =32%=INDYSTRY-DAMAGED
19 only =smokers..same polution..DIFFERENT SOLUTION.
MY FATHER DIED FROM COLLESTEROL AND BOOZE[PLEASE BE HONEST..NOW*/THEY ARE LISTENING//BY REVILING..ME YOU REVILE A BIT OF ME IN THEM THAT COULDNT EXPLAIN IT TO YOU/IT HIVES ME COMFORT CALMS ME/ tell the truth or dump ya reproof/i get that enough from my rotten famility/if only i stop smoking i can see them/well screw them/too...[where is the exit/elvis?]

SteeleRedux and others, you don't seem to want to recognize the hugely increased online market.

Here's a link, first one that came up when I put in 'buy cigarettes online'

http://www.buysmokeonline.com/

You can buy one carton (200 cigarettes) for less than one packet here. (note the NO TAX as well)

Do you still think smoking is in decline due to plain packaging?

Another issue you seem to dodge is the fact that plain packaging was introduced to kurb smoking in our youth, yet, most of our youth can't buy them anyway.

All this law has done is exposed us to a potential extremely costly legal battle, expending funds which One, we don't have, and Two, could be used for far more important issues.

As for stopping smoking, the answer is simple, ban it from ALL public places, including our publicly owned roads and freeways.

Make it unlawful to smoke around all children, or anywhere they frequent, such as their home, or the family car, Because after all, if we can legislate against smacking, we can surely legislate against passive smoking.

Problem solved, except, where do we fill the revenue void left behind!

SR,

"new data, obtained by The Australian, shows that tobacco sales volumes increased by 59 million “sticks”, or individual cigarettes or their roll-your-own equivalents last year."

"The 0.3 per cent increase, though modest, goes against a 15.6 per slide in tobacco sales over the previous four years"

I would suggest that you look up the definition of "boost" and review your comment.

As far as clamping down on smoking, all of the low-hanging fruit were picked many years ago. I fail to see why the taxpayer is still stumping up $$ for bureaucrats to justify their jobs in anti-smoking councils and the like. Similarly the non-productive bureaucratic nags of road safety and a multitude of other drains on the bucket of taxpayers' $$ should be done away with.

Honestly, when will there be a proper review of the multitude of committees, qangos and NGOs that swing from the guvvy teats at all levels of government and produce SFA but self-serving public relations bumpf?

Jolly good jobs if you can get them, eh?

The following link may be of interest:

http://reason.org/news/show/smoking-plain-packaging-and-public

Here's another link which tells us that -

"The tobacco industry backed data on cigarette sales and
smoking habits is contradicted by other sources, including
the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS):

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/june/06/labor-rejects-tobacco-industry-claim-of-plain-packaging-policy-failure

foxie/LINK1
survey of outdoor smoking habits) suggest that plain packaging has indeed made cigarettes less desirable to smokers and has increased thoughts of quitting.

However, an online survey of smokers carried out in two phases, the first a month before and the second six to eight weeks after the introduction of the plain packaging rules, suggests that the impact of the rules on quitting tendencies is probably small.

Moreover, many smokers engaged in defensive behaviors such as covering up health warnings, and did not report changing brands or a significant increased tendency to quit.

This finding was corroborated by another survey that found that in the year to July 2013 the proportion of smokers in Australia had not declined since the introduction of plain packaging.>>

WHY..BECAUSE IT GIVES US A BENIFIT*
A LIFT..SOMETHING WARM..IN ICECOLD HANDS.
THE COMFORT OF THOSE WITH LIFE BURTDENS AND TERRORS
TO LOOK AT THAT SPECK OF SUBSTANCE TRANSITIONING..INTO DUST

THE MIND IMAGRY OF THE SMOKE DRIFYING THROUGH A SUNBEAM
SHADING THE RISING DUST MOTES.OF OTHER HOUSEHOLD DSUSTS WE ARE INHALING[BUT MINE GET FILTERD OUT/BY MT SMOKE

why are you ignoring the numbers32 non smokers get pluricy..from industry
the general/populayion[including smokers or just smokers was 19..

32 non smokers dead
19 SMOKERS DEAD
EXPLAIN WHY?

FIRST LINK=FAIL

Foxy, that article shows what's always been known by the movers for plain packaging ..... that plain packaging is not *THE* one and only and final answer. Plain packaging is merely "part" of the overall strategy. Whether the reduction in smoking as a result is large or small, is not the point. It's been proven it works, all but the blind can see that.

No other recreational drug in the world has caused more direct deaths than tobacco over the decades.

Decent society now needs to embark on an equally strong campaign against the recreational drug alcohol. Alcohol is *THE* recreational drug that causes more heartache, misery, dysfunction, violence and societal $$$$$$ debt than any other recreational drug known to mankind. If all alcohol use ceased immediately, and the alcohol industry was closed permanently, the cost of that would be *MINISCULE* compared to the SSSSSS profit gained from not having the harmful societal consequences from the use of this drug.

But banning recreational drugs in that way *NEVER* works. Prohibition in the USA in the 1920s proved that. The way around this is to demonise alcohol and tobacco, make it a *DUMB* thing to do, make it socially unacceptable, make it close to impossible to advertise these 2 harmful drugs .... there's literally hundreds of similar measures that could be taken if society has the will and self respect to do it.It's already started regarding tobacco, but still has a long way to go. Alcohol must also be treated the same way that tobacco is now treated.

The druggies, and the supporting industries, love their drugs and the SSSS they get from it. It's times for the druggies to take the backseat, and finally understand their drug habits of alcohol and tobacco are unacceptable and cost our nation multiple *BILLIONS* of lost dollars due to the harmful results of these 2 recreational drugs.

As do all multinational companies the tobacco industry too is depentent on the perpetuation of simple mentality. Plain packaging & the lack of a national service is not addressing the poor educational standard.

That plain packaging has any effect has yet to be shown. The rates of reduction prior to plain packaging was about 4% p.a. or exactly what the ABS showed. Which means that at the very best the plain packaging had no effect. If the reports from other sources are even partially correct, the PPL was a disaster.

Poor old Shadow Minister doesn't even bother to read peoples' posts .... posts that give the statistical proof that plain packaging has indeed worked. He doesn't want the empirical facts get in the way of his little "story".

According to our newsagent the purchase of cigarettes has not dropped even though another outlet has opened which is doing rather well also.
Then again, education in our region is extremely poor & 99% of public servants posted here don't actually give a damn about anything here apart from their allowances.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Come on mate, much more flogging of this dead horse and I'm going to have to call the knackery to save its poor flayed hide.

Firstly a little blurb on Chain Volume Measures;

“This need for a measure of economic growth due only to changes in quantities has resulted in the development of two types of data series in which the effects of price changes are removed. The two series, constant price estimates and chain volume measures, indicate changes in quantity (or volume) between time periods by keeping the prices of goods and services constant. Chain volume measures are considered to more accurately reflect volume changes over time and in 1998 replaced constant price estimates as the official Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) measure of volume change.”
Australian Bureau of Statistics

If you download the national Accounts at the link I posted earlier you will find under column U the following; “Cigarettes and tobacco: Chain volume measures - Percentage changes”.

There you will find the changes in volume of tobacco sold in Australia in every quarter from 1959 until now.

You will also note a 2.7% fall for the most recent period the March 2014 Quarter, which was the largest volume drop in 30 years.

You may also note the careful wording in the quotes you supplied from the article; the first said “shows that tobacco sales volumes increased” and the second was phrased “slide in tobacco sales over the previous four years”. Notice the missing word in the second quote? Volume.

I have to know why on so many things are you a skeptical old coot but on this you are swallowing their hook, line and sinker as fast as your poor old larynx can go? The tobacco industry is a scurrilous, devious, mendacious bunch of bastards and your hatred of the Labour Party can not be that pervasive that you find it imperative that you do their dirty work for them. Time to drop this baby.

The fag policy must be working. One of the fag companies is trying a new trick;

Tobacco companies are reportedly importing cheap cigarettes into Australia in a bid to fight tough anti-smoking laws.

The government tried to reduce smoking rates in the country after hiking up taxes on cigarettes last year.

But British American Tobacco says the move has increased the demand for 'cut-price smokes'.

The company has begun selling Rothmans tobacco products, which it claims are the cheapest on the market this week.

Anti-smoking campaigners are now calling for a minimum price for cigarettes.

from skynews

Regulating any legal things use by taxation is discrimination aimed at the less affluent members of society and is therefor immoral.

If tobacco is the great killer that it is said to be then it is the bounden duty of Government to ban it, with due consideration for existing addicts.

I think liberal shills claiming plain packaging has increased smoking is a complete crockabaloney; however labor shills claiming plain packaging has reduced smoking are as full of of it as you can get.

How many of you have noticed the uptake in e-cigarettes(Electronic Cigarettes)? Yes, even the tobacco companies are worried!

E-Cigarettes have the potential to destroy the jobs of parasites from cancer council bludgers, to politicians, to tobacco industry workers, to big pharma' employees. Expect a wave of propaganda from all these groups in the near future. It would seem those addicted to nicotine are in for a rough ride, which is a shame, as nicotine itself is no more a problem than caffeine!

http://blog.casaa.org/2013/08/new-study-confirms-that-chemicals-in.html
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/Five-myths-about-e-cigs/14980
http://onvaping.com/the-ultimate-list-of-studies-on-e-cigarettes-and-their-safety/

One has to wonder why governments want to ban them? A loss of revenue perhaps?

http://www.cancer.org.au/news/blog/prevention/extreme-caution-needed-on-electronic-cigarettes.html
http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/e-cigarettes-are-making-tobacco-obsolete,-so-why-ban-them.aspx

So for all you nicotine addicts out there, grab an e-cig and enjoy your addiction without the problems associated with burning tobacco, and tell the nannies to GFT!

Njoh>> So I'll not be hard on him anymore.<<

Who cares njoh if your "hard" Njoh.....I don't believe OUG gives a toss about your perspective....

Sono, I think he has what may be some relatively serious mental issues, so I'll leave him alone. These issues are not overtly obvious in most of his posts, but a day or two ago I read some of his past posts and I could recognise certain things due to my past medical training. I won't attack the vulnerable. All's cool.

Nhob,

I do read the posts, evidently you don't.

The ABS collects specific information, and if the market changes, as it has done the accuracy of the information can be affected.

So don't claim "proof" until you have seen the other data.

SR,

At the time I first posted the info on the ABS had not come to light. And while the ABS data might at first glance look compelling, there are a number of reasons to reserve judgement.

The ABS like all statistical organisations decides on a particular statistical source and sticks with it preferring consistency over perfect accuracy, assuming that anomalies will correct in the long term. Anomalies can occur from changes in type of tobacco sold, to changes in inventory levels, etc. To quote the ABC:

"Professor Daube said he anticipates a decline in cigarette sales in coming years, but said it was too soon to determine whether or not the laws had proven successful. "Of course the impact of plain packaging is always going to be long term," he said. "You're looking at complex issues such as population increase and of course artificially high cigarette sales or reported sales during 2013 because of inventory changes."

Secondly, as I stated before, the Australian does have fact checkers that work independently from the journalists checking stories, especially those on the front page. The information they are using is from a different point of sales from the ABS, and I doubt they are sucking it out of their thumb.

One problem I have with the drug addicted fag addicts is the way so many "shoot up" at bus stops! Despite tough fines of $300 they continue to flout the law. Time for action!

Lol!...Paul,

I was sitting at a bus stop last week.

Two cars went past spewing out grey smoke from the exhaust. It rent the air and stank to high heaven - stayed in the air for 100 metres in both directions for several minutes.

That's just two cars....I wonder how many smokers it would take to render that pollution...probably several thousand standing end to end smoking for a considerable time.

Bit of a laugh really...especially if you're standing at a bus stop on a busy street thinking you're breathing clean air because a smoker isn't standing next to you.

I wonder how many smokers it would take to render that pollution
Poirot,
My point also. Just like those pseudo environmentalists who go on holidays via 747 to to eco lodges which have elecetricity provided by Solar panels which, of course are made from oil.
Or using cell phones & computers & tablets & & & & & ....all made from oil.

individual,

I don't have a major problem with infrastructure like solar panels or wind turbines made from fossil fuels if that infrastructure will assist in providing future energy from renewables. If we're going to shift to new technology and infrastructure that doesn't use (so much) fossil fuel, we are obliged to start from the place that we are at.

Njoh, you have been here for years...you know OUG’s communication style has not changed...so the affliction you brand him with seems to be a constant. Constant non conformist views and “atypical” writing and graphics styles are more likely character traits and manias, we all have them, but most are too conformist to execute them...bet OUG was exactly the same as a kid. ...no change...no debilitating psychotic illness...

Probably best that we leave the diagnosis to the clinicians...but we all make value judgements, I reckon SM are and 759 are mania’d......but not crazy

sonofgloin, In reply to your last post, just go back to page 14 and you will see that OUG has a very normal post for the first half, then reverts to something like his/her norm for the rest.

My tip is that OUG is in fact two deferent people using the same name.

Mr Abbott hopes a Free Trade Agreement being negotiated with China will facilitate greater Chinese investment, with Australia prepared to grant special exemptions from SCRUTINY for state-owned investors

The Gillard/Greens government wasted millions on plain packaging to divert attention away from the messes they had made elsewhere. Gillard and Co, ever presumptuous and loving the world stage, even lectured other countries on what they should do.

Gillard has her $2million bungalow, the golden handshake and a huge income forever courtesy of the long-suffering Aussie taxpayer and nothing more is heard on 'Big Tobacco' from her replacement L'il Willie and the 'Progressives'.

Meanwhile, smoking is as rife in aboriginal communities as ever and almost every pregnant aboriginal woman smokes. Outside of the awful self-inflicted harm including violence from alcohol abuse, smoking has to be one of the few contributors to their poor health. No doubt the Left who are at their happiest when they are making rules for others will immediately offer the excuses that 'indigenous' smoke because they are 'dispossessed' or were introduced to smoking by 'whites'. Others are not allowed an excuse.

Be that as it may, the real issue is that continued smoking among aboriginals proves that at least in their case the Gillard/Greens crew were only playing politics and grubbing headlines with their plain packaging. It was all spin and all show - cakes and circuses. Wasted millions that could have been used to better effect elsewhere.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that is to be gained from keeping the special bureaucrats who spruik anti-smoking on the government payroll. The is already plenty of free anti-smoking publicity about. If anything extra is needed let the existing federal departments do it.

It is because government fritters away millions of taxpayers' $$ on a plethora of qangos and NGOs devoted to feel-good, but non-productive populism that government cannot afford to pay for essential services that it (government) was originally created to provide. Politicians pretend that they are actually doing something productive and useful passing more and more laws to control the very people they should be serving.

The arrogant, ineffectual Gillard/Greens crew boasted of passing 2000 additional laws to control the Aussie public. How do some people manage to suspend their critical faculties and fall for that?

Sono, Aspergers Syndrome is NOT a "psychotic illness".

There have been quite a few National Tobacco Campaigns
done by our governments
in Australia over the years.
Surveys have also been done to see whether these
campaigns were cost saving and effective.
This information is available on the web and all one has
to do is Google it.

Some interesting figures that were given were -
that in its first six months of operation one National
Tobacco Campaign achieved a reduction of 1.4 percent
in the smoking prevalence, avoided 32,000 cases of
chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, 11,000 cases of
acute myocardial infarction, 10,000 cases of lung cancer,
and 2,500 cases of stroke. In addition we're told that
it is estimated that the National Tobacco Campaign
prevented about 55,000 deaths and achieved gains of
323,000 life-years and 40700 Quality Adjusted Life Years
(QALYs) with potential healthcare savings of $740.6 million.

Therefore the National Tobacco Campaigns were both cost saving
and effective.

As for our Indigenous people and smoking?

There was the famoous "Quitnow-Indigenous-Anti-Smoking-Campaign-
Break-The Chain," that had great results and attracted so
much attention:

http://www.quitnow.gov.au/internet/quitnow/publishing.nsf/Content/btc-indsurvey-execsumm

Interesting reading.

Careful Foxy, empirical data is not what Shadow Minister wants to hear .... it interferes with his "beliefs" on the subject matter.

rehctub>> sonofgloin, In reply to your last post, just go back to page 14 and you will see that OUG has a very normal post for the first half, then reverts something like his/her norm for the rest.<<

I think that was a paste in, OUG's style and opinions have been consistent.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“The ABS like all statistical organisations decides on a particular statistical source and sticks with it preferring consistency over perfect accuracy”.

Well not quite. In the quote I furnished above the ABS changed the way they recorded tobacco volumes;

“Chain volume measures are considered to more accurately reflect volume changes over time and in 1998 replaced constant price estimates as the official Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) measure of volume change.”

They are definitely not preferring consistency over accuracy in this case.

You appear to have great faith in the fact checking propensity of the Australian newspaper for what is essentially an opinion piece quoting tobacco company research. I would appear these fact checkers did not go to the ABS data because if they did they might have had a question or two for Mr Kerr.

Be that as it may you have tempered your rhetoric and as you say time will tell. I do hope if the results show a decrease in younger people taking up this addictive habit you will give credit where it is due.

SteeleRedux, I guess we need to establish what government considers as 'young people' because if they are suggesting this includes people under the age of 18, they are forbidden from purchasing tabacco products anyway, so how would plain packaging deter them. Let's face it, many young smokers start the habit at school age and tend to bum their fags rather than buy them or have someone buy them for them, at least at the beginning.

This to me is the biggest failing in the scheme.

SR,

From what I know the ABS is reluctant to make changes to measuring techniques preferring to separately analyse anomalies. the change you are referring to was nearly 2 decades ago. The market has changed since then, and the difference between the ABS data and point of sales data referred to in the Australian includes inventory changes, which could easily make a significant difference, and is often raised as a reason for anomalies in other ABS retail figures.

There is no indication that the article is only an opinion piece, and yes I do put stock in the fact checkers, and I am confident that the ABS data is probably the first thing they checked.

It would be a brave man to bet his crown jewels on the ABS data 100% representing the point of sales information.

Dear Shadow Minister,

You wrote;

“There is no indication that the article is only an opinion piece.”

Are you serious? Good god man, just look at Kerr's opening paragraph;

“Labour's nanny state push to kill off the country’s addiction to cigarettes with plain packaging has backfired, with new sales figures showing tobacco consumption growing during the first full year of the new laws.”

“Labour's nanny state”? If you consider this unbiased reporting of facts unencumbered by opinion then I might have to throw you in as a lost cause.

I am really starting to get the same feeling I do when I debate my in-laws about evolution, whatever evidence I lay in front of them they will always find some small thing to cast enough doubt so they can hold on to their faith about creationism.

You sir are exhibiting just such a trait.

You try and pick imaginary anomalies in the ABS data while spruiking the virtues of a survey done by the tobacco industry.

Your bible “The Australia” is apparently the infallible authority while any other source should be viewed with deep superstition.

Their faith does keep them warm at nights and chases away the beasties. I can certainly understand the attraction but their black and white view of the world does turn out people like our runner.

I would counsel caution my friend.

Dear rehctub,

It has been a stable fact of the smoking statistics that across the age groups males are the more likely to be smokers than females but the has been a disturbing trend which has seen this figure turn around among our youth;

“In 2011-12, 5% of males and 9% of females aged 15-17 years were current smokers.”
ABS

I think it is fair enough to make the point that females of that age are more brand aware than their male counterparts. If plain packaging can remove any brand driven behaviour at this early age then I can only see positives. Saving children from a life time of harmful and addictive behaviour should be worth the effort.

And further more...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-10/chapman-big-tobaccos-claims-go-up-in-smoke/5511288

"It is difficult to know where to begin to point out the sheer cant and hypocrisy in all of this....."

"In fact, Treasury data shows the tax impact was even worse for the industry. A 2013 Treasury paper shows that this increase reduced apparent consumption of dutied tobacco products by 11 per cent, nearly twice the 6 per cent that had been predicted.

The reason BAT are parading this turbocharged palpable nonsense is that the twin horsemen of their apocalypse, tax increases and plain packaging, are together driving both total consumption and demand for cheaper cigarettes down like never before.

Precisely what was intended."

Etc....

SR,

Now you are just being silly.

All reports carry the journalist's opinion and bias to some extent. The question is what defines a report from an opinion piece.

Generally opinion pieces give commentary on existing information rather than reporting new information. (clearly this carried new information) Secondly the newspaper generally flags the article as an opinion piece. (Which if you look on the Australian website under opinion pieces it does not appear)

Secondly, whilst after seeing the ABS data, I have not allocated absolute belief in the Australian article, rather balance of probability based on practices at the Aus and knowledge of the vagaries of collecting statistics. I do however, acknowledge that I may be wrong.

You however, seem to be exhibiting the religious fervour and unquestioning belief that you accuse me of in the 100% accuracy of the ABS statistics.

The test of good policy formulation is whether the assumptions underlying the policy have some evidence of effectiveness, which this policy did not, for which it was justly criticised.

The test of good policy outcomes is whether the outcomes are better than if the policy were not implemented. Given that prior to the implementation of the policy smoking rates were dropping approximately at 4% p.a. the ABS figures (6% drop in 18 months) at best show that the policy was outcome neutral.

What do the ABS numbers say about smoking and Aborigines? Smoking and other drug use, for example alcohol, are strongly implicated as causes of poor indigenous health.

Is it possible that the impediments to Aborigines quitting smoking (and not abusing alcohol and illicit drugs) are identical to those affecting the lower socio-economic groups who similarly abuse tobacco, booze and drugs?

While I might be led to believe that plain packaging could make it more difficult for advertisers, my concern is that policy should be based on evidence and sufficient compelling evidence at that and that value for money should be proved for the expenditure of those millions of taxpayers' $$ on plain packaging.

I am yet to be convinced that the Gillard Labor government wasn't just using 'Big Tobacco' and plain packaging as a useful diversion to occupy the media and the chattering masses. However, leaving that to one side, I am also unconvinced that any future gains - which will be very hard won - are best pursued or coordinated by a special anti-smoking outfit.

It is yet another area where the contributing causes are complex. It should be handled by a federal department like Health. There are far too many qangos, NGOs and individual consultants and experts swinging from the guvvy teat and that is never good for any deeper understanding of contributing causes and later coordination of solutions.

I think they should ban smokes all together, That way they can then tax the hell out of alcohol as a reimbursement on the lost taxes caused by the ban on cigarettes !I think alcohol bottles should be all plainly marked with photos of beaten wife's, hungry kids, car accident victims,throat cancer, bladder cancer etc etc,,,,,,,

The fag companies can't be doing all that well. BATA has closed its Pagewood plant in Sydney, which was on the old Holden car manufacturing site, and its now being developed as apartments.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/city-east/meriton-apartments-purchases-bata-site-to-transform-it-into-new-village-hub/story-fngr8h22-1226720092285

A development local Greens fully supported, and work is well underway, goodby fags, hallo people.

It took the medical profession from the 1960s to the
present era to get the public, and the governments
we elect, to act on the toxic, life-taking efforts of
tobacco. Eventually sanity prevailed, although it
took over 40 years. If plain packaging can contribute
to even saving one life - surely it was worth doing.

Here is a link from the Cancer Council of Victoria
on plain packaging - the facts.

http://www.cancervic.org.au/plainfacts/

Foxy, anything that reduces the noxious addition of nicotine and the subsequent health effects can only be a good thing.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-marlboro-men-20140127-story.html

The 'Marlboro Men' and how they died.

Whilst tobacco is the second biggest drug problem society has ever had, our governments continue to ignore the biggest drug problem we've ever had.... alcohol.

The alcohol drug industry is so deeply entrenched, powerful, wealthy and influential I suspect it will be hundreds of years before "real" action is taken to rid society of this insidious and dangerous drug.

Dear Paul and Nhoj,

Here's another link that may be of interest:

http://theconversation.com/big-alcohol-and-big-tobacco-boozem-buddies-9668

There's also a further reading list at the end of this link
that's worth a look as well.

"If plain packaging can contribute to even saving one life - surely it was worth doing"

'If only one life/soul is saved by a restriction or ban, we should do so'.

Consign it to the very large waste bin labelled 'fallacious Left rhetoric'. The Left patronise the public and treat them as idiots - 'If it sounds right it must be right'. Yes, and the Australian public came down in the last shower.

Even good policy can be scuttled by cringe-worthy, dumb-ass Left rhetoric like that.

You can’t go around..swearing..at people..on the forum.

“nurse-quote..<<..OUG.."pays your rent.">>..

<<..Well do yourself..and your health..a favour\then OUG,>>



my health state..without ciggarettes?
[i would have died..without them..years ago]



my dad\gave up..4..moths/he was dead
my....'step-father..gave em up..dead in 4 weeks

So..its..'atttriutable'..to smoking
[but..thERE-IN..LIES THE LIE..you/think..allows you-to live/my life.

if you..think..because/of..[edited]..you..im..giving em up..
well/miss/BUSY-BODY..Screw you*..[get your nose..\out/of my life..get it?]

modern medicine..ie/the sickness industry..slow kills/us all
your..clear-bias..re anger/smokers..makes you/the..real\present danger[get a life by getting out of mine.]
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/enron-2-0-wall-street-wants-manipulate-state-energy-markets-just-like-manipulates-every-market.html

go blog about nursing/or things\..that realy mattewr[to you]
stop..riding me woman..i paid a,,week to say this

now ya know..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlmEp3s6lwg

screwy/suzie\quote..<<..if you think//and give up the disgusting habit,..and then these mad theories..of yours will just disappear...>>



if you nurses..would only do nursing/NOT TROLL SMOKERS/BANNING THEM FOR A WEEK..GEEZE BEEZKNEEEZE..GET A LIFE..OR BECOME..-SOME ONES WIFE[IF I KNEW then..i would have been more frank.

get a life..and stop ya preaching..
ya whined one old man into his grave how many ore till your sure?

sure we die young..all cause we are too evil for vthis perfect world
it mist be hard being soooo pefect?

the world better would be
without any smoker..be she or he me or ye.
death..a pox upon all smokers..and then wonder why dad died sad IN HIS 50'S..because you se life going to bits..everyone lecturing anyone..do it my way/allow me to live your life

get thyne own//life
get it..worry about you/you got the sick genes
one in four only can gety sick/your the genes that cost the big bucks/my genes self repair mine were built to last ..my genes dont need see docters..but we sink to the lowest measure/living others glories

naming me the sinner/you alone the saint
if you love me..get the 'heck'..out of my life.

i let god heal me..and know satanic medicos.love us being sick
LIE..ABOUT THE MOST CLEAR SLOW KILLS
http://www.naturalblaze.com/2014/06/the-lancet-fluoride-is-neurotoxin.html

DONE OF COURSE BY PROFFESIONAL KILLERS[FOLLOWING DOCTERS ORDER]
http://www.redressonline.com/2014/06/materialism-and-misery-and-the-need-for-change/

HOP INTO THIOS RADSIATION CHAMBER[RADIATION..IS GOOD FOR YOU]
WITHOUT THIS YOU WIL DIE IN 2 YEARS
WITH THIS YOU MAY GET 3 YEARS..OF LIVING HELL.

http://investmentwatchblog.com/pedro-schwartz-on-the-creation-of-money-out-of-thin-air/
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/06/verizon-comcast-net-neutrality-blind-deaf-disabled

http://www.thedailybell.com/news-analysis/35385/Repudiate-the-Public-Debt-How-About-Corporate-Personhood-and-Monopoly-Central-Banking/
we have big pharma\for gain/sponcering the media

shutting the media up/with things like
the link of modern superscribed drugs in mass killings..[every one of em is high on something called ssri's..feel good DOPAMINe? feel-GOOD-tranq's.,.[apparently]..they send people maniac/from self satatified to murder/a feW..subsacrib PILLS away



and run around sue says
nuthin she can do/but\pick..om me..well/screw you..sue

mind ya business l0vie..get back
to slow killing..us/smokers/and..clever..mIDnight/BIG-PHARMACY-billing.



<<>.I don't care..what government did what>>

i do/seE its creator/..took the bribe;
SWALLOWED/the\cool-aid/lies\spin..propaganda.*]



<<..,I just want.to see smoking..slowly
*die..;the painful death...it has caused..so many to endure over the years.>>



thats..a wonderfull atitude..to know the nurse..is thinking
oug/smoking caused all/this isery\but it didnt..worse one/third[1/3rd\.was directly/indisutry related/ie caused by cancer/25%..are weak genetyicly..if they smoke..they are idiots[by its my choice fool/not yours]...het it?



to..pa-rot phrase..you would love nuthin better..that to see smoker's..loving die a painfull death..as smoking..isnt life[living]
only living..'dies'[ie..its personal..luv.



no worries its slow/kill
most people...only know they had cancer..in their after/life revieuw[once/issue]has..resolved ..i know/..but thats right/you think no life after c death/lol godless too..lol

by your heartless atTitude..you/reveal\not a real nurse/0r\ if real..0nly in it..for the money..[or]the power.thus likely a night nurse/they put..the angry no-hoper/smoker dopers to sleep\one/night/they blew my vein.



ALL DONE..
smokers..gone
moveon/nuthin to see here..just another death by smoking.

rip
the creep
PASSED AWAY..PEACEFULLY..IN HIS SLEEP

A.nurse kkratZshit?Z..drugged em..to the eyeballs



sue..<<..I hope I live..to see smoking/die forever...>>

I KNOW THE\LAST MAN ALIVE/WILL BE OBSESSED
..TO KNOW THIS..'SMOKING'..thing/that killed..every-one..is all about

but/curiosity/didnt..kill\him/..HE TRIED IT ONCE..INHALED AND WAS INSTANTLY HOOKED..he smoked\
like me/till his last day



see issiah
[smoking fLax..he refuses..oto quench]

hh that/odious stench\\..thats me wench..//
LOVING SMOKER-STENCH*..N0 QUENCH*\NO WENCHE/..VAN DIE MENSCHE.”

if you think im being hard /try learning some truths
http://rss.infowars.com/20140613_Fri_Alex.mp3

dont miss the..last hour.[2.33]
the truth makes you cry...then the need to know why?
the let the ones haters..hate the most..to LET..just us..2/die.

some hate..too many..[new info re canadia stolen gen/genicide]
huge graves found..why have we not heard..100 times the size of the irish genocide[no doudt nuthing like the other african genocides

well enough is enough
boycott war mongering business.
indeed stop consuming till we can tell fiend from foe.

Xanax link to mass shootings confirmed yet again
http://www.naturalnews.com/045571_Xanax_mass_shootings_psychiatric_drugs.html
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllLaking Xanax prior to becoming the latest fall guy for the gun control agenda. The Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department told reporters that Rodger was "likely addicted" to the drug, which can make users feel isolated and anxious.
http://www.naturalblaze.com/2014/06/california-measles-85-of-those.html

LLLLL

one under god, "my health state..without ciggarettes?
[i would have died..without them..years ago]"

May I take that up?

Strange isn't it how some here mount a moral pedestal to declare their self-righteous support for foul, lying terrorists who apparently ought not be interrogated alone because it invades their rights, but the same moral beacons see nothing wrong in very heavy taxes on the drug of dependence of their own addicted countrymen? Isn't that a form of torture? Withholding tobacco from prisoners would be of course.

What I would very much like to see is an allowance for doctors to issue annual certifications for patients who are so dependent on tobacco that they cannot quit. The certificate would be to permit the patient to buy their tobacco products from (say) pharmacy outlets with a minimal tax. Why torture the poor who are addicted to a legal drug and might well be compromising their nutrition to afford the government drug dealers tax?

Apparently the Labor/Greens federal government supplied tobacco products to economic immigrants. That is different, apparently.

Again, just to confirm that I don't smoke and I would not encourage smoking. However I do draw the ethical line at increasing the suffering of the addicts of this legal drug, especially where the government itself is involved and has the biggest take.

THANKS*BEACH..IF ONLY I COULD WRITE..IT PROPERLy
expose how they first make guilt/name call[dopers no hopers/refos/abIS..AVO'S..JANOES AND WHO THE Hell knows.

YES BIASED STUDIES IS NOTHING NEW
but the same types repeat the same things
regardless of what the whinners say..go figure..its my life/get your own.

otb excepted of course.
but guys..why the lies
http://www.bullionbullscanada.com/intl-commentary/26536-belgium-money-laundering-toilet-for-unwanted-treasuries

think why..you need despise*..me
dads dead so now pick on the dropkick/to kick the habit you so/dispise...i know you despise it cause a referd docter said i didnt kill him he kiLled himselF..[;how"]..smoking..OF COURSE..ON THE INHALE[BANH//YOUR DEad[or hooked for life like a cracj whore

its not you but the ciggie sukking the life out of you
the sukker on the but of the smoke

one minute alive/NEXT DEAD
ONE SMOKE HE DROPPED DEAD..one ciggie can kill you[and no one sues>]

one smoke can kill YOU?..ME..[LETS SEe]..wrong
SCREW the lOT/OF\yOU...TOO..never trust a non smoker/they all quit when the going got tough/then died of other causes/but attributed\to smoke...yeah right...bah..

[ya ever noticed smokers are better kissers.]..and how non smokers got teeny tinny winkies..[ya couldnt call them penus]..yet they are...[johnson/+\johnsome more johns]..and dont start me on non smoking mums[with their add addICTED KIDS ALLERGIC TO EVERY DUST MITE.

MENTA DEFICIENCY/ONce[1/1000]waS RARE/AND POLIO..WAS COMMON
now 1/40..and polio has evolved//into 4 other strains
govt lies guys..for big pharma to corrupt our media.
http://investmentwatchblog.com/flu-shot-causing-brain-damage-court-awards-millions/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/

http://xrepublic.tv/node/9424
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/chris-hedges-accused-plagiarism-obvious-smear-campaign/
"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death." - Adolph Hitler

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_reichstag.html
http://rt.com/usa/166060-usa-fbi-terrorism-prosecutions/
http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-neofeudal-neoliberal-arrangement-since-we-own-what-you-need-we-own-you/

anyhow/listening..to bbc..my guides\noticed..smoking adverse events just/last..here last-night..where smoking..was demeaned..so many i cant keep.track/of them[the scatter-gun approach/knowing\it all adds up to/the negative..connetations

one was..re kids..price dont affect\them/thus/the image
but.the image.is the new cool/then there/are the TOTAL NICOTEEN CONSUMPTION/like my grand-daughter/she ridiculed smokeRS/now smokes the/cool elertric smokeless/ciggie-way[soo-cool.

thing is..if nicoteen is..the drug/plain pack/is..killing
then how come..the next generation of.NICOT*een avoid the smoking that leaves butts..[this whole scam..is to/expand the market

[old foggies smoking/bah..cool kids/with\their one sip suck/smoke on demand but its not SMOKE ITS STEAM/OR SOME OTHER CARRIER CHEMICAL EVERY BIT AS BAD AS THE STUFF THEY SOAK TOOBACCO LEAF IN/TO DISOLVE THE NICOTEEN

EVERY THING..GOVT DOES..IS FOR REVENUE-RAISING AND [SLISH-FUNDS]SING
OR EXCLUSIVE FRANCHISE..for maTES.

YES ITS SAD YOUR DAD DIED
BUT I DUDNT KILL HIM[,MOST LIKELY STREES AND WORK/KILLED HIM[Assuming he wasnt hounded from his own home..like i am..]hating smokers..to/watchE/SOME-ONE..not hurting you/thus-cause..your a dope/or a druggie..im just ading what i can..to your lifes difficulties

they cured cancer/years ago[as they said]..but its so proffitable treating sick people for MONEY/THEN THE REVENUE RAISING..GREAT LUV IT

CANT WAIT TILL THEY TAX THE REAL DANGERS[BOOZE CARS/FATTY FOOD]
CRISCO[the first margerene p[atent/mixed copper with cotten seed[you call it..margereene..its them making you sick/by bad food

listen to the alex jones show..[friday]
they are slow killing you/saying its me doing it.
even if ALL THEY SAY IS TRUE/YOUR ADDED EXTRA STRESS IS ATTEMPTED MURDER*

CHANGE YOUR THINKING
HOW HURT ARE YOU..lot of nagging ninnies..FOR ME ITS YOU lot
THAT MADE THIS LIFE..pure-HELL..taxed me to death//for a freaking lie.

thats what hurts most/the lies.
unrefuted lies..cause you love hating some scape goat..[never your whinning]..bah..the btch.even bosts about..how we complain/about the taste/she mandated be put/into the special aussie paper[..so much so it sent..another healer broke.

my dealer...is my healer
but..for them..i would..have blown my brains-out.long ago
take away..my smoke/they joke..he will find/another addition/and they do...in SCANDINAVIA[BBc]/they dida study/all ]They trieD FAILED[WHY?]..BECAUSE..THE SAME 'TYPE'..DOES THESE/STUDDIES

[IE..YOU LOT]AND I S..IT AMMOUNG/THE 50 PERCENT.\WHO REFUSED/THE OFFER.

one under god,

I have heard from smokers whose frankness and truth I regard as impeccable, that they went through periods of life where the cigarette was their only friend and only solace. Without prompting they seem to come up with the very similar truth for them.

Reducing smoking is one thing, but if we care and are humanitarian we should also have sensitivity for the vulnerable souls we might trample over with rigid autocratic 'solutions'. First do no harm, even where we believe we might be saving them from a possible later physical disorder.

Has anyone ever researched to find if the Jack-boot economic and shaming approaches to banning tobacco have resulted in an increase in harm, even suicide, in vulnerable groups, for instance people suffering from depression?

In summary, I believe that the low fruit were picked early, there is plenty of information available to deter people from smoking and nothing can be done about the Net for example.

The plain pack 'initiative' was an expensive and wasteful political stunt of the Gillard/Greens government. The results are not there to justify the waste of taxpayers $$ that could have been applied to better use elsewhere, for example to get rid of some single lane bridges on Highway 1.

To all those that claimed that SK's 15 min google search was more reliable than the Australian, here is some more information also directly from the ABS in more detail that shows that plain packaging did not reduce smoking rates.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2014/06/17/1226958/034887-4199177c-f61a-11e3-9b4b-c275dbac2021.jpg

"NOT every nanny encourages her charges to take up alcohol and tobacco. But then again, not every health minister is like Nicola Roxon.

Replacing assertion for analysis, she left the country lumbered with policies that at least so far, have imposed substantial costs while doing little to improve public health. Roxon’s signature policies hardly lacked ambition. Plain packaging, she boasted, would “reduce the consumption of ­tobacco by about 6 per cent and reduce the number of smokers by 2 to 3 per cent”.

In fact, Australian Bureau of Statistics data shows tobacco consumption increased by 2.5 per cent in volume terms in the year immediately after the introduction of plain packaging."

from
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-26/chapman-show-us-the-data-on-tobacco-sales/4845010

<<>.I sifted through the..PRIOR/online budget papers for the data on tobacco tax receipts and projections. But this year, for the first time, the information was missing.

In the table..on revenue,..the data on excise receipts*
from tobacco..is buried in a line labelled.."other excisable products"..and..*customs duties*..[on tobacco imports..under "excise-like/goods".

*A footnote explains..that "tobacco estimates..are not separately reported..due to taxpayer confidentiality".

The amorphous*..excise category
shows..some $9.02 billion..in revenue,>>

THIS SEEMS CURIOUS..[SHADOWS NUMBERS/RECORD..ONLY 3 POINT 5 BILLION..[TOPS]..yet here we have 9 billion..[in revenue?]...point being if the 'revenue raised=9 Billion..sales must/be bigger..thaN 9 billion.[so im unsure why..only this years/PREDICTED-increase..is quoted

but such is/this debait/by spin../LIES
COLLUDED/VICTIMSATION]CRIMINALISATION'0PPRESSION\legislating/on\sin/proffiteering.i call it..[thanks beachie

<<>>a fall of $680m or 7 per cent from the previous year>>

in revenue..[despite a 3 billion increase in revenue
they lie i tell ya.[this is a fact\check site/biased as well..but it may have proper numbers[why isnt treasury being more respectful[read clear]..ABOUT/OUR\REVENUER-razing-GrIFTS?

<<>.,but because the other items[read..the new/nico-replacement-fads]..in that category*..were not shown,..the precise change..in dutied tobacco..cannot be seen.>>

besides/sales-numbers-reflect/volume..not amount/of\sales-revenue

<<>.The explanation here is that,..with only two companies (BATA and Philip Morris)..manufacturing tobacco products in Australia,..>>

THUS<<>.releasing the total excised amount of tobacco sold...would apparently enable both companies to calculate the tobacco product..volume/the other company\was passing through to the retail market.>>

there you go/..govt\INTERFERANCE/made two huge giants
JUST/LIKE..BIG-PHARMA-BIG-PETERO/BIG ME-DIE*SIN

PLUS/public servants..own controlling voting shares/
thus dont sue/no one./REAPING..IT/IN-BOTH ENDS.
[that in itself..reveals much/to those open to thinking.]

<<>.Similarly, with imports dominated by one company (Imperial)
which imports into Australia from its New Zealand factory,..customs data would reveal this commercially sensitive information to the other two companies...This is apparently more important than having publicly accessible data to use in evaluating Australia's pioneering tobacco control efforts.

The decision to bury the volume of tobacco entering into retail trade in Australia on this excuse is laughable for two reasons.

EDITED..[CENSORED-OUT]

<<.this white hot commercially sensitive information has not caused New Zealand to fall off the face of the earth...If New Zealand can force public disclosure of sales data,..why can't Australia?..>>

because;..[the true-fact/reveal\a far..biggger symptom]

Nice bit of cherry-picking Shadow Minister.

If Plain Packaging is a failure and the Tobacco companies are therefore profiting, why are they so opposed to it?

The peddlers of death ought to be happy.

ANY/CHERRY-picking..is only..by the term smoked

see..the new*ciggarets[..the sMokless..ones]..with..infinite-tastes..[artificial/FLAVOURS\COLOURS..ETC..[MOSTLY MORE..*CARCINOGENIC THAN CIGGIE-SMOKE]..arnt part of//.the inclusion\limitation..of smoking..*[yet]

but*..its the fastest growing fad*

and.if you looked at it..under the 'name'..of nicotine addiction [instead\of 'smoking]..ie..only one..'new'-method of 'delivery'
THEN THE NUMBERS WOULD show/.these new products fast outstripping the market..they set out to capture..[20years ago]

<<..This is a..'social experiment'..*that the Cancer=Council
has been working on for at least 13 years,.that I know of...They received funding and political support..from the Howard government, then the Rudd gov,..then Gillard gov, and will likely continue to receive funding..and support from the party that wins the next election>>

<<>.The decision..to bury the volume of tobacco.>>

COMPLETELY..IGNORES THE 'HARMFULL..NICOTEEN[ACTUAL DRUG ADDICTION

but heck how many caffeine addicts drink coffee

lol

..its repackaging..of a fast dying habbit
oldies dying..we need a gimmick for the young
liKe lolly ciggies/cause\thumb suking feels good

<<..entering into retail trade in Australia..on this excuse is>>>..easy for two reasons...money/franchise oppertuinity[with infinite smokeless 'tastes'//

malbro taste anyoneits smokeles[even uses batteries]..EVERREADY SMOKE FREE STREAM
the new money stream

thats/heaps..CANCER COUNCIL
WHO FOund the money..by b;laming all the causation s of cancer ontio smokes[at best toobaco kils 10 percent of the number 'attributable..to smoking leaves..

ha ha ha

First,..tobacco companies have long*[note]
*bought commercial shelf audit data..from the main supplier of this information in Australia,..

bying influence/directing/from\the rear

<<so they already have very detailed information>>

ditto..the cancer council[and other lobbies].feeding the cancer cure/sham

Reich harmonics.kills cancer with vibration[-WAVES
FOR FREE*..but then..we wont,..need.no more*cancer council TO fund/research..into harmoni..[not one ever]..

too clever by half

<<.>>Data on brand share...is also published.>>

reveal the gum/and the patches and the data on smokless ciggarettes

[in stead/of allowing us\to die off/the publicity..has revived the petro-pharma industry into a huge addictive payday[just like dupont stole hemp/via the same lies of science/lobby/spin..propaganDA

SAME SAME SHAME

a
LOttA- treason/malfeasonce/focus groupies
plenty/of\WORK/BUT..HUGE PAYOFFS.ALLROUND

This is a 'social experiment'
that the Cancer Council has been working on for at least 13 years,
..funding and political support from the Howard government,..then the Rudd gov,..then Gillard gov,..and,..now/phoney-toni..[sold-out/by..official malfeasance/mainly..to protect..industry/corperate-merchantilism

Agronomist,

Would you like to expand on your pointless post?

Given the 350 word limit reproducing the several articles on the topic is not possible.

What the graph drawn from ABS data conclusively shows is that while smoking rates have decreased, the reason was the increase in tax not the PPL. The increase in the 12 months directly following the implementation of the PPL is not an indicator that the PPL worked.

Shadow Minister, a quick look at the figure you linked to would illuminate my post perfectly. Even better, go back and look at the original data.

While you are at it, you might like to consider which of the two propositions are true:

Smoking rates have increased since the introduction of plain packaging as you claimed in your first post on this thread; or

Smoking rates have decreased in that time as shown in the figure you linked to in your penultimate post.

Take all the time you need

AG,

Please read the link in my post. The smoking rates increased in the 12 months after the PPL was implemented, until the huge increase in excise caused them to drop for the next 6 months. While the net result was a drop in smoking, the only logical reading of the graph is that the PPL was not the cause for any of the drop in smoking rates.

I hope that this is not too difficult a concept for you to grasp.

To be clear, whatever change is claimed it was not worth the investment of taxpayers' dollars where there are other priorities, in health too, that should have come first.

Australia is bringing in thousands of migrants who smoke, with their extended families, some of whom would likely smoke as well, to come.

An alternative could have been to put the effort into researching and treating the causes of smoking that is rife among Aborigines ans particularly the pregnant Aborigine women who smoke and most do. Unfortunately the political correctness of the political 'Progressives' would never have countenanced any such initiatives, despite the well documented harm being done to the babies, infants and youth who grow up in households where there is a continual pall of tobacco smoke.

Just show show how ridiculous the plain smoking campaign was and to demonstrate that it was the expensive, wasteful political stunt of a flawed PM and a government that was failing in the polls and needed a convenient diversion to occupy the media and the Parliament.

I don't care what policies governments adopt or where they set the priorities for the expenditure of the money compulsorily taken from citizens. However I do care that governments take advice from citizens on their expectations and priorities, that there is transparency in decision-making and that value for money is obtained and demonstrated for money expended.

I would like to correct the para in the earlier post that should have read,

"Just to show show how ridiculous the plain smoking campaign was and to demonstrate that it was the expensive, wasteful political stunt of a flawed PM and a government that was failing in the polls and needed a convenient diversion to occupy the media and the Parliament."

I apologise for my typos. I either draft and post in haste with average quick editing, or I don't post at all.

There's no doubt, the evidence proves that the smoking rates greatly increased after the PPL was introduced. No amount of whinging from the left whingers can change that. Yes, another Labor failure.

HY BOTHER
close the page/lets build the rage

vote none of the above/then attend the count
the secon 51%of the vote their sacked
watch the informal numbers/vote 1 your all saxcked
nota

How the War on Drugs/and\the War on Terror
Merged Into One Disastrous War on All of us.
http://patriotrising.com/2014/07/10/war-drugs-war-terror-merged-one-disastrous-war-americans/

The war on terror and the war on drugs have merged to form a hydra-headed monster that rapaciously targets Americans, particularly communities of color. Tactics and legislation used to fight terrorism in the U.S. have been turned on drug users, with disastrous consequences measured in lives, limbs and cash.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/enron-2-0-wall-street-wants-manipulate-state-energy-markets-just-like-manipulates-every-market.html

THEY LIE ABOUT EVERYTHNG
like wage isny income
income is that money not earned[like fines fees intrest and proffits]
bying something and selling it minus the wage that is regarded as value adding.

The reason there are so many errors by the IRS is that the tax code is very complicated, the result off too many loopholes passed for the very rich and because the whole system is intentionally obfuscated so that ordinary citizens cannot figure out that it is a scam.

its satans realm/every body lies
http://www.nature.com/news/publishers-withdraw-more-than-120-gibberish-papers-1.14763?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews