Dear fellow forum dwellers.

Yesterday was another of those 'mind body spirit' things where I manned a Christian stand.

Invariably at such events, we get all manner of 'spiritual' people as the large proportion of stand holders are Fortune Tellers,Astrologers, Yoga peddlers and a gaggle of 'healers' including Reichi etc.

Now.. I always find some person who has had some kind of spiritual or psyhcological experience which either scares me or amazes me.

2 TYPES.

1/ The dreamers.
2/ The Meditators.

The meditators report some startling experiences such as "during meditation I saw a figure in white robe with a staff and a unicorn next to him."
There was another were during meditation a person seemed to indicate that the figure/animal they 'saw' somehow entered them. (this is the scary one)

The dreamers.aaah.. well yesteday this person reported the 'figure in white robe with staff+Unicorn' thing, but they also reported this.

DREAM. I had a dream where I saw a woman in white, holding flowers.
She said "lauren...lauren...lauren"
When I woke, I asked my husband "who is lauren?" and he said he didn't have a clue. (hmmmmmm I thought)
Well a couple of weaks later, my mother became sick and was placed into a hospice section of the hospital to die. The carer designated for her..was named.. yep..u guessed it.. LAUREN. There turned out to be 3 nurses called Lauren in that section.

What is going on here ?

Coincidence?. Love how she asked her husband who Lauren was.

The flip side, is that there's a spiritual world where there's guardians that look out for everyone and occasionally hand out clues to life and all that it is about.

Once again, there's no way to prove that stuff like that doesn't exist. I'm each way on it. Much like with aliens...and not the illegal kind we're spose to be terrified of that are found on boats.

Curious to know the general consensus of an Atheist's take on the soul and what that's all about. Seriously, for the sake of interest. OF course, someone will take that as a shot.

Polycarp,

Never mind, might I suggest you don't eat spicy Asian food before retiring for the night.

As a qualified Astrologer and at one stage a member of the guild I can assure you if their is any truth in most of these it is:
- So scientifically convoluted as to be currently unmeasurable (effect?).
- It is emotionally needed by some...we all have the choice to choose.
Me I take the rationalist line....unless you can prove it..don't waste my or you time.
I would suggest you consider known factors Dija vu, coincidence, name fashions, subconscious linking. And when judging (see Pericles posts) chain of evidence. Also consider the differences between 1st-3rd person evidence, the potential unreliability of memory reconstructions.
In the final analysis I side with the rationalists....we simple don't know so why invent mythologies.
It is ultimately up to the individuals needs.

Notwithstanding that this topic is a stalking horse/ straw man argument to facilitate one of your usual rants

OH, forgot the other flip side. This existence has more flip sides than a stack of pancakes.

IT could have also been someone hacking in to the matrix and giving this chick a heads-up. Juss Sayeen.

Dear AGIR,

Thank You for this thread.

There are many things in life that we can't
explain - and your "Lauren," story
gave me goosebumps. However, that's the
wonder and miracle of life - isn't it?

The truth is that dreaming is essential to an
original mind. If we don't learn to dream
we are doomed to merely follow where others have
already been. We are condemned to lead a
second-hand life. People who have achieved great
things have been dreamers. Still like all dreamers,
some people confuse disenchantment with truth.

I like the following recipe to dream:

"Take one dream. Dream it in detail. Put it into
your own hands. See its final outcome clearly in
your mind. Then mix it with a little effort and
add a generous portion of self-discipline. Flavour it
with a wholesome pinch of ambition. Stir briskly with
confidence until the mixture becomes clear, the doubt
separated from the resolution. Then bake at an even
temperature in a moderate mind until the dream rises
and is firm to the touch. Decorate with individuality.
Cut into generous portions and serve with justifiable
pride.

Approached in this manner, life is a piece of cake."
(Bryce Courtenay, "Recipe for Dreaming.")

Well AL i won't draw a picture for you of the similarities between these people and religion, i will leave that alone as it has been covered enough in this space.
What about these people needing something to hold onto to, to help them cope with life. It is their choice as to what they believe and how they see the experiences they have had. In the end they are not having any great influence around the general population unless you attend these 'mind body spirit things'.
As for Reichi, this is a very old and well used form of healing. Try talking to nurses in their 70's and 80's. They will tell you that they were using it in the hospitals way back. They called it touch therapy. In the end it could be possible that the touch of an empathetic and caring fellow human can help us in our personal battles in life, be they health or emotional. I know how a hug from my family helps when i am feeling down.

Thanks for another good chuckle, Boaz. You never fail to come through.

Your "scary/amazing" experience does not seem at all out of place in such a gathering.

>>I always find some person who has had some kind of spiritual or psyhcological experience which either scares me or amazes me<<

Let's face it, if your Christian stand had been Roman Catholic, you would have been able to tell the story of how one woman cured another of cancer, fifty years after having died. Not satisfied with that, she repeated the feat, on a different woman, some forty years later.

Spooky, eh?

And puts the Lauren story into perspective. Unless of course the Laurens' patient got up and walked - your brief summary didn't tell us.

So, now you have our attention, what is the point that you are leading up to?

It can't be just another "there are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy". That would be silly - we all know that already.

But thanks for the giggle, imagining you among all those earnest hippies.

Wikipedia provides a credible list:

"Exhibitors include the Hare Krishna devotees, the Aetherius Society, Christian groups, Buddhist groups, Astrologers, Tarot readers, vegetarians, vegans, Tai Chi groups, the Anthroposophical Society, Reiki and many other New Age groups."

That's scintillating company, right there.

Did you wear a suit and tie for the event?. C'mon, you can tell us...

I expect these people were there too.

http://www.centreformindbodyspirit.com/

"The Centre for mind, body & spirit features a wide variety of crystals, incense, essential oils, organic skin and hair products, candles, cards, jewellery and giftware."

As I have said on many occasions, I am very comfortable with the fact that there is a large group of human beings for whom simply "being here" is insufficiently interesting, and who require that little extra bit of personal reassurance to make sense of their lives.

Bless.

But it's also the case that they all seem to come with a demand that you buy some form of "giftware".

Odd.

Ummm Boaz/polycarp/agir, I presume you're saying all this was a "dream" you "supposedly" had. Is that correct? Or did you really "not" have that precise dream (with all the accompanying precise details)?

Come on Boaz - - - - tell the "truth" when answering my 2 questions.

My suspicions are that you did NOT have that dream with all it's detail. My suspicion is that you MADE IT ALL UP in order to use this thread as a vehicle to publish, yet again, your non-Christian agenda. An agenda based on the far right wing USA fundamentalist religious movement that you follow so rigidly. Folks, these people are about as Christian as the Pope is Muslim.

People, everytime Boaz/polycarp/agir starts a thread it's a good idea to consider why he "really" started it.

Oooh *Boazy,* look at all these poppets being mean and picking on you, stamping on the flowers, and throwing rocks .. LOL

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*Foxy Loxy* appears to be a very genuinely nice person though doesn't she? I mean, you don't necessarily have to agree with what she is saying but her manner is soothing, relaxing and graceful, nonetheless. I seem to recall *Examinator* also finds this an attractive trait. ;-)

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As for some of the raucous mob, well, if I were you I'd take satisfaction in the likelihood that they would not have nearly as much fun if they didn't have you to "peg stones" at. LOL lagi.

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Hmmm .. I love Freo. We have all kinds of witches and faerie shops in Fremantle. Beautiful art and craft, crystals and stones, yes .. many fine and beautiful things. I like it and find to gaze on these things very soothing, especially after too much time in front of a 2D screen, and to inhale all the wonderful essences that induce subtle state changes.

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Of course, from a psychiatric perspective people can after experiencing an emotional trauma such as the loss of a Loved One, incur false memory to the extent of getting a few key facts a bit scrambled along the time line i.e. her mum had already died before the dream and then it would appear to be quite normal.

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If in reality she did indeed experience some form of, what's the term, precognition, then that indeed would be rather remarkable would it not? I have met a lot of people who have claimed these sorts of experiences but yet to have some one describe the experience in advance and then for it to actually take place.

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Of course, some people have a far more pictorial kind of consciousness, and coupled with a particular belief system, one can quickly begin to interpret everything through that particular set of "rose coloured glasses." T.B.C.

Dream On:

>> I have met a lot of people who have claimed these sorts of experiences but yet to have some one describe the experience in advance and then for it to actually take place. <<

I have personally experienced events for which I have no satisfyingly scientific explanation. However, not one of them proved god exists or that Christianity is the one true religion. Just that there is a lot we don't know yet.

To claim that one's religious beliefs are true and everyone's else's mere fantasy is the height of arrogance, yet that is what all the formal religions do and then expect others to suspend disbelief in the absence of proof.

Here's the deal, I don't proselytise, can Boaz/Polycarp/AGIR return the same respect to others?

*Severin* interesting, and I am in the same boat with you on that one, and concur completely. *Brother Boazy* what say U?

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I just looked up the word "Hallucination" on an online dictionary:

" ... a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images. ... "

I think there is probably better definitions than that however ...

I was interested that the person you recount alleges to have heard a voice crying "Lauren, Lauren, Lauren."

My dreams are all soundless. I only get picture. And I usually dream when just before becoming conscious, and that usually as my brain is waking me up to have a "p!ss" or "snap a grogan."

If I'm in a particularly deep sleep, like say I've drunk too much "wooblah" the night before, my brain usually throws a nightmare at me to wake me up, like getting chased by sharks, big cats or if my brain gets really cranky with my non-responsive lethargy, will chuck up an Exorcist film image like the possessed Reagan, all likely connected to me being a somewhat stressed child due to feuding, divorcing parents and being left alone to watch too many horror films and graphic natural history.

It's interesting that these "memory crystals" (for want of a better term) remain with me still and are likely activated upon secretion of the relevant neurochemical in an all too familiar way.

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Coming back to it, to perceive sound as if it originates from the external environment or the same with images, but for them in reality only to be perceptible to the person experiencing them, is of course a common thing with people afflicted with so called "Schizophrenia."

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That's not to say of course that all people who have such perceptions have a mental illness, however ..

Dear DreamOn,

I like your nickname.

My previous post wasn't meant to be profound
or wise or even clever. I was simply in a reflective
mood today. I blame it on the weather. Monday's
are my days off, and today was the kind of day
when the trees in the garden were desperately
trying to hang on to their modesty against a macho,
loud-mouthed wind. It seemed like a good day for
spring-cleaning my mind, and doing a bit of
dreaming as well.

If you haven't watched the DVD, " The Imaginarium of
Doctor Pernassus," I highly recommend that you do.
I think you'll enjoy it, starring Christopher Plummer,
Heath Ledger, and others. It's magical!

"Yesterday was another of those 'mind body spirit' things where I manned a Christian stand"

How wonderful, but if you like to experience even greater wonders indeed, why not place your stand inside the "Ladies" toilet? Surely you will then see the stars!

But if you rather prefer a down-to-earth experience, try placing your stand inside a mosque.

Lol, Yuyutsu, but you are asking for trouble there!

I must admit to being a skeptic about ESP, real life dreams, Martians, bible stories, and other fairy tales.

I would have thought that, after so many years of working as a nurse in many areas of health, I may have come across the odd miracle, or ghost, or strange unexplained happenings.
But no, none at all.

Maybe being in a profession that does not involve selling strange objects to prove my worth goes some way to explaining why I have never seen any proven supernatural experience?

Dear Suze,

I imagine that as a nurse you've provided
comfort, peace, and compassion, to many
patients and their families over your many
years in practice, during their most vulnerable
moments. Perhaps, you haven't experienced
any "supernatural" moments, because the real
miracle all along, in your work has been you.
The guardian angel to everyone...

Boazy I do not intend to take the stick to you on this subject.
Such things happen and evidence is not hard to find it has always been so.
Another long ago thread went very long on this subject.
We use words like precognition and such to talk about it.
However my overly Christian brother would run away from your fair convinced it is from the devil and he would remind you such storys as this are the devils work.
However his next original thought will be his first.
I think almost every human has had such a dream.

Belly

>> However his next original thought will be his first. <<

LOL

Such is the lot of the religious fundamentalist. And why I tend to skim the posts of AGIR, Richie10, and the like. Nothing new here, best to move on.

AGIR

There is such a lot to learn that no single lifetime can possibly encompass the wealth of knowledge, it is beyond a single person's abilities. However to waste all your time on a single cause moves you beyond regrettable and renders you wantonly negligent.

Foxy, thanks for your kind words :)
After years of listening to the same stories of some patients who have claimed to have 'seen the light' during a near death experience, I was beginning to wonder why I have never 'seen' any ghosts or spirits in the hospital corridors over the years!

Surely in places like hospitals, where deaths occur frequently, if there are supernatural beings to be seen, I should have seen them by now?

Many patients also described strange happenings in their dreams during or after anesthetics or while unconscious. Having often been in the operating theatre or emergency department with them during their operations or experiences, I have been able to tell them that these 'dreams' did not actually happen.

That's not to say that there hasn't been some strange unexplained occurrences I was told about by other nurses that have happened to patients.
Just never to me!

Dear Suze, (Guardian Angel),

As I mentioned earlier - you're
living the "dream." You've got
a new dimension of depth in
your actual world - you don't
need fantasy. You possess an
expansion of the mind that you
nourish and keep alive, a sense
of wonder within yourself.
How do I know this - look at
your own post history. You see
the world as it should be ...
sometimes heartbreaking, but never
hopeless.

"Hold fast to dreams
For if dreams die
Life is a broken-winged bird
That cannot fly."
(Langston Hughes).

Foxy, I think you are the angel!
You never seem to find bad in anyone - on these pages anyway.
I think you are an impressive communicator.
Have you ever written any articles or books yourself?
Speaking of dreams!

Dear folks... I'm playing catchup mode at the moment.. fitting reading/posting in between various work pressures.

Good to see a keen interest in this area, with a healthy dose of skepticism which is to be expected.

1/ No..it was not 'me' having this dream, it was a lady who I conversed with.

2/ I don't see it as 'proving' anything in particular.

MAIN PURPOSE in raising this thread, was to explore others experiences and opinions about the issue of DREAM/REALITY... ie.. in particular concerning hints of the future contained in dreams.

The "Lauren" story/dream seemed to suggest that there is an element of knowledge of the future available or.. put to us from the 'other' side..which ever side that is... But it wasn't clear or specific...so...one wonders about that also.

In my case.. I have had an 'experience' which most (specially Perilous:) would put down to sub conscious activity.. and that is on the night my mum died, I was in cold stark bone chilling fear of what seemed imminent. Then.. while I was pondering life without her, I heard a voice.. "Tonight you will lose a loved one"... it seemed to come from inside my head.. not audible, and before anyone jumps into the "oh youre subconscious was simply doing a coping thing"... I wondered about this much later.. and I did ask "What that from you Lord"? and then.. something happened, which blew my mind...but guess what :) I'm not telling ner ner. But the result was that in this case (the only time in my life) I was convinced that it was from the right source, and it was not self manufactured.

Have fun with that..as I know some will...

But the Lauren story was just one of a number I've come across at these MBS festivals.. some are downright creepy.. specially the meditation ones.

QUESTION. Has anyone involved in 'meditation' experienced some kind of vision or 'presense' which came out of that?...if so, please share.

It's nothing to feel embarrassed about, Boaz.

>>In my case.. I have had an 'experience' which most (specially Perilous:) would put down to sub conscious activity..<<

As you know, my view is that the concept of a deity is already a product of human imagination, created by us in order to paper over the bits of the universe that we don't understand.

So, to me there is absolutely no difference between "sub conscious activity", and the very real impression that God was speaking to you.

If that is the way it felt to you, then that is the way it was.

My only question would be to ask you, why you believe that you were singled out for such attention, when there were, at that very moment, people far worse off than you that needed his help.

Dear Suze,

Thank You for your kind words.
They are deeply appreciated.
However, to me - you definitely belong
in the "guardian angel," group of souls,
sent here to help others.

As for my dream of writing.
I am working on a book at the moment.
I have had things published both in this
country and the US - they've mainly been
short items.

*Brother Boazy*

To go on from my earlier comments re:hallucinations, it is worth noting that from a psychiatric perspective such symptomology can come about for a number of different reasons:

1. There is the acute medical conditions as already mentioned such as so called schizophrenia, post traumatic stress and others.

2. Substance, such as ketamine and others can induce "schizophrenic/psychotic" like symptoms, though depending on consumption, usually only temporarily.

3. Heightened emotional states such as the grief at a time of loss can also induce symptomology and I note one of my favorite Priest friends who is no longer with us in the flesh claims to have become "clairvoyant" at the time of the loss of his mother.

Of course, schizophrenia oughtn't be considered a dirty word as in many ways it is rather fascinating, and neither in my view should all "hallucinations" be considered the product of a diseased mind.

Regarding auditory hallucinations, they can of course and quite commonly are a voice/noise quite other than our own, but upon closer analysis, they do appear to be an echo of sorts of our own conscious mind, thus, if the nature of your experience is consistent with your own life , belief system etc, then very likely it is just a "Holy Echo" of your own mind, brought about by a time of stress.

If on the other hand, it is completely earth shattering, off the planet and completely new in your experience, then perhaps freshly we have an indicator of something other.

Think of those bits of the Al'Quoran for example that appear supernatural. When we really get down to it, is there really anything other than the echoes of the consciousness of a significant person of those times, religious, cultural and all other factors considered?

*Lordy* in the wilderness at a time of self deprivation, also known to induce such experiences, is another example.

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Oh, and re the "presence," as mentioned previously in this place, do have a look at Dr Michael Persinger's God Helm,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Persinger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YPOTaUyvA0

and also a number of in depth interviews with him. Absolutely fascinating stuff.

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Now, I am not casting a view on whether El Goddo is or is not, but rather that the phenomena that are often subscribed as being evidence of *Lordy* are often able to be explained by other means.

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Ponder the bit about "no graven images" and I would not be surprised to learn that this meant more to the people who coined it than merely drawing or creating a deity figure on a piece of paper or otherwise.

I saw a doco some time ago on either *Nat Geo* or *BBC Knowledge* from memory on a particular catholic nunnery.

They practiced certain varieties of prayer and meditation techniques and introduced these to the subjects of the film which were a group of young women who came to try life at the convent.

Anyway, as one may expect, the nuns pumped these girls' with Jesus talk solid, and, then one of them got the fright of her life when during the meditation technique she claimed to hear *Jesus* speak to her, to the approval of all of the nuns.

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Hmmm ..

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Now, I don't know the truth of it, but I have heard it claimed in religious circles that abstinence, and the channeling (somehow or another) of the sexual energies can assist in the process of bringing about this kind of phenomena. A number of religions have these types of "mystical" practices, say for example the so called Kundalini Yoga of certain Hindu traditions.

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So, to draw a long bow, and thinking about *George Negus* on *Date Line* referring to the claim from the Vatican that they have "God on their side" in relation to certain investigations into the matter of child sexual abuse, it leaves me wondering whether in fact that their religious practices in conjunction with sexual abstinence and likely a genetic predisposition in the case of some of them, has brought about a situation where some of them are convinced that *God* talks to them, when in fact all that is occurring is that their consciousness is generating an ala "auditory hallucination" type of echo like response.

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Given that a lot of their behavior both current and historical is rather less than "Godly" I expect that it is more likely than not.

Some recent research in support of some of my earlier comments:

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http://www.schizophreniaforum.org/new/detail.asp?id=1605

" ... Zinc Finger Gene Points to Schizophrenia Subtype With Spared Cognition

29 July 2010. A clue to the possible role of the ZNF804A gene in psychotic disorders comes from a new study in the July Archives of General Psychiatry. Gary Donohoe of Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland, and colleagues found evidence that the risk variant found in genomewide association studies of psychosis, rather surprisingly, is associated with better performance on certain working and episodic memory tasks in schizophrenia, and thus could define a group of people whose cognition remains relatively intact despite their other symptoms. This group, the authors speculate, may comprise a genetically unique type of schizophrenia that arises through a distinct pathway—a notion that, if backed by future studies, may affect psychiatric research, diagnosis, and treatment. ... "

DreamOn: Hiya. I read somewhere that Richard Dawkins once participated in the Persinger experimental procedure, for about 45 mins, and didn't have any religious-type experience or anything remarkable.

This suggests to me that some people are more open to religious phenomena, some are not.

If it were simple: subject + stimulus = amazing reaction, then we'd see a 100 percent response. There are some other mediating factors; yet to be identified. It will be interesting to read more as the experiments progress.

Btw - I am a very pragmatic individual who neither needs nor seeks any experience out of the unusual. My religious convictions even prevent me from dabbling with anything that delves into that area (like ouija and all that). However, I have had an experience or two, and one of them at least was absolutely verified. I know that there is more happening beyond our physical realm.

Pericles asks:

"My only question would be to ask you, why you believe that you were singled out for such attention, when there were, at that very moment, people far worse off than you that needed his help."

and with that..I have to raise my eyebrows in the same way..I don't have a clue, and I absolutely know it has nothing to do with anything special about 'me'...rather it seems in spite of rather than because of.

I asked the same question Pericles. I suppose deep at heart most of would like to be more significant than we really are, and perhaps that natural inclination in me would like to think that God has something special for me yet in life ? One thing I can assure you of, when my mind heads in that direction, I never see it in terms of anything for 'me'..and it never involves earthly power or riches or success. My mind considers only one thing in those moments...that people would be swayed toward the Grace of God.

Pynchme..regarding some people more susceptable than others... I was in a mass hypnotist meeting once (when I was about 16/17) and the hypnotist tried to determine who was more open to suggestion..and he said .."First.. join your hands together interlocking your fingers...then..when I count to three.. you will not be able to unlock them" !

Voila.. there were either a lot of cheeky people there or about 5% of us were 'hypnotized' and could not unlock our fingers. I was not among them.

dreamy :) I am reading your posts.. pressed for time right now...

Salam hormat dan moga2 anda diberkati :)

I believe that you are absolutely right, Boaz.

>> I suppose deep at heart most of would like to be more significant than we really are<<

To me, that goes to the very heart of why so many folk turn to religion. They cannot face the fact that they are, in the cosmic scheme of things, so infinitesimally insignificant.

And in order to try to make any sense at all of this reality, they like to be told that there is actually a "purpose" to our existence.

It is this mixture of fear and insecurity that priests rely upon, when managing their flocks.

On a lighter note, it has always amused me that so many religious leaders refer to their followers - to their very face, even - as sheep.