I have not been posting for a while and I am disappointed to see the two discussion threads number 18 and 28 about animal cruelty and animal welfare come to an end.

I am starting this thread as it would be a shame to see the 2 threats being forgotten.
I am also curious to know how many people are really seriously interested and sincere in trying to prevent Australian farm animals from being doomed for Live Exports.
Mind you Australia is the largest Live Animal Exporter in the World.

It is common knowledge that the Live Exports Trade is especially cruel at the end of the animal’s journey, starting from being unloaded, during transport to the abattoir and before its being slaughtered.
Some Middle Eastern Countries have no animal welfare laws or regulations. If they do they are not enforced and the animals are greatly disrespected and mistreated.

I searched the net but I could not find any other Animal Welfare Organisation that provides an alternative solution to Live Exports but one.

People against live Exports in Conjunction with RSPCA Qld are a main stream group of people with farming background and a love of all animals.
They believe that animals are to be killed for human consumption then it should be at least done as quickly and as humane as possible.
The RSPCA has long maintained that livestock should be slaughtered as close as possible to the point of production...

To me personally it makes only sense to keep the animals here and send them overseas as carcasses or as ordered cuts.
There are Middle Eastern countries that are willing to import frozen or chilled carcasses in the absence of live animal imports. So why then sent them alive?

Benny Sampson

benny ,why don't you start a campaign to stop the senseless suffering of millions of kangaroos sheep and cattle due to the drought.They are suffering a slow and agonising death much worse than the live sheep trade.

The trouble with most of these animal liberationists is that don't mention their real agenda of stopping the human consumption of all animal products including fish.

Arjay

Welcome to the thread.

People Against live Exports are not Animal libs
Your not wrong about Animal Liberation People thats for sure. However well meaning the members are they need to ask the hard questions to themselves and of their leaders. Running around telling people not to eat meat drink milk eat eggs to so counter productive to the Animals.
This country no longer is a great place to take the kids for a drive in the country. Behind closed doors in appauling conditions the coperate intensive farming holding millions of suffering animals is growing.

There is no worse or better. Animal cruelty is Cruelty and Live Exports is up there at the top.

Australia is about to go into its biggest dry mate in History.
lots of animals are going to suffer.

People Against live Exports are a group of main stream people standing up to the Animal libs saying stop telling people not to eat meat and start working towards better methods more laws and start looking for alternatives.

Farmers have to be helped to find better outlets and get a fair price.
Most city folk dont understand that this country runs off farmers backs.
You might be interested to look at this site regarding people Against live Exports attitude regarding the question you asked me about.
You will find a bit on roos as well.
http://www.livexports.com/

Animal Libbs are right in their main claim and thats about the cruelty that we allow to take place.

I am talking about the members. They just need some real education
You will find Animal Libs dont work with People Against live exports and our group is the only one that is active in opening more abattoirs in Australia.

So I am saying I hear what you are saying but we are not libbers.
Only because of that one difference. Otherwise we totally support them in hundreds of other ways.

What are people against live exports about?
Is that a question about people in general or about the organisation Pale?
I am a bit confused.

We were discussing Pale yesterday on another thread and a link was put up to a previous posting from Pale. The opening line of that post is:

"Sorry I missed you. Yes Wendy is PALE in conjuction RSPCA QLD"

So were do you fit into all this benny?

People Against Live Exports are just that. Any person main stream member of the public that would like to work together to stand up against live animal exports. Any Person at all. It means. People Against live Exports
In case you do not understand I opended this thread to put on the table sensible moves towards finding better methods for animal welfare.
There are a lot of people out there who are taking the big leap into the country. Small farms are still being grabbed and I feel this is a good time to encourage some of those people to perhaps look at the bigger picture.

I like what I have heard about the HKM idea.


Most people have no personal experience in live exports.

Every vet should be free to speak out about the live export of Australian Animals. At the moment thats not the way it is.

That is wrong.

I am one of those people speaking out and looking for alternatives.
This thread is about animal welfare not me madam so please direct your questions only with questions about live exports if you dont mind.
We are certainly not talking about pigs. Its live exports only.
We are not talking about me either. Live Animal Exports.
If you have something to add about live exports please do.
As I told you on the other thread I not not interested in your trying to involve me with your fights.

Well Benny, as this is a discussion forum and not advertising space for yourself or your organisation, I will take the title as a question. "What are people against live exports about?"

Well it has become quickly apparent that anyone on any thread that does not agree with them, and dares speak their own mind, is subject to their attempts of intimidation. So I feel that they are a nasty little group, and what are they about? They are unknowns trying to use this forum to gain notoriety. Well they are succeeding, but let me tell you guys, its not going the way you planned it.

People who donate their time finding alternatives to live exports do so for the sole reason of improving animal welfare.
However a lot more needs to be done.
The answer to the live exports is to sell direct to the buyers of the meat in the Middle East or other countries. AFIC have a responsibility towards the accreditation of the meat to ensure it is Halal for their customers.
Working together with RSPCA QLD and Australian Federation of Islamic Council gives any foward thinking farmers a chance to expand.

Apart from educating the general public about live animal exports it is important we also look at the opportunities for outback people to add whatever infastructure they require to become a exporter or as well as farmer.

With the help of AFIC its possible to redirect some of the animals going live and reopen a few dead horse country towns. All Governments need to get behind this. Many people think abattoir work is only manual labor. Some say that animals are dropping like flies in paddocks especially in WA.
However the real facts are animals are trucked thousands of miles from state to state to reach these ships to make up the quota.
We are blessed to have Mark Townend RSPCA CEO QLD who has met with Church leaders and others assisting in the education of Animal Welfare.
Education of the public is the number one starting point to improving Animal Welfare.

The Reach out for Christ Church who Mark met with have put their hand up to speak to their flock about live exports.

This is a good start and we thank Steve Ryder and Mark.

There are two other Churches who have made contact also wishing to get involved.
There is a need for more people willing to give up a few hours of their time to assist the Church people who have shown willingness to start including animal welfare in some of their bible classes.
Should anybody wish to help you can contact us by clicking below and scroll to the ban Live Exports icon
http://www.rspcaqld.org.au

What a nice little dream wenny. I watched an interview with a WA abattior the other night. The headline was abbs hate mondays. Why? Because 30 to 50 employees fail to show every monday morning.

I live in a town that has a large abattior, they have the same problem. They now employ backpackers and are trying to bring in workers from overseas. This happens all over the country. Its not pleasant work you know and not something people can be forced to do, even if it means putting food on the table. Most just cant stomach it.

So, if you and AFIC and the churches and your blessed mark build these abattiors all over the country (with funds from?) Just how are you going to staff them?

"However the real facts are animals are trucked thousands of miles from state to state to reach these ships to make up the quota."

Actually if you do your homework, you'll find that the animals
carted the furthest and longest, are hundreds of thousands of
sheep going from WA saleyards to ES meatworks, far further then
any sheep for the live trade.

The present situation says it all, even ES farming papers "The Land
etc" are highlighting the value of live exports right now.
Sheep slaughtered locally on this weeks market are worth 55c a kg
cwt, the same animal on a boat is worth $2.40 a kg. Farmers
are entitled to feed their families and the rest of their flocks
with the proceeds and make a living like anyone else.

Interesting story too in the Weekly Times, about a survey of public
opinion on animal welfare in Australia. The public generally do
not trust animal activist groups. People want balanced information
and animal welfare is a big concern for only a very small %.
The survey was conducted by TNS Social Research.

PF
like this
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/stories/s1096508.htm
AFIC are not building plants. Nor Mark. AFIC have a responsibility along with another twelve accredited halal certified authorities. Gives a opportunity to assist in educating other Muslim people. Your right regarding staffing. There are several solutions on the table. The Howard Government have made things easier regarding the unions which contributed greatly to the introduction of live exports. Yabbby suggested the farmers hold shares. As the demand for especially Halal increases world wide more eyes than ever are on Australia. Malaysia see themselves as the hub of Halal and are interested in Free Range Animals and Farms. Working through their JAKIM accreditation through to the Middle East they can take beasts in whole carcass redistribute onto Middle East and other Muslim countries. China Turkey Saudi Iraq Kuwaite Russia are some of the countries that have expressed interest in Free Range and meeting farmers at grass roots level. Russia are particularly interested in Free Range pork, brussel sprouts and roo meat. Of course the Government needs to support this. They made a few decisions years ago. Now is the time for them to do and undo a few. I understand you want to hear more about the staffing situation but I need to confirm if we can post publicly. In the mean time I will post a few wide range enquiries. Perhaps I should start a link for farmers to access free of charge overseas purchasers of meat and vegetables and interested investors in co joint Free Range Farms and abattoirs to keep it separate. That way if any farmers are interested they can access the information.
How will we fund them? A fair Question. From parties interested to have their own interests in Free Range Stock from Australia willing to put in funds for Halal Accredited Free Farms and the infastructure for necessary updates of domestic plants cojoint building up to new plants.
Many small farms will benefit. This will assist the little man not the corporate operators.

Umm, your funding sounds like hocus pocus to me. Firstly farmers
prefer to own their farms, where they live, not joint venture them
with anyone from overseas, who might try to take advantage of them.

Lets just keep it all very simple. If you actually have people
who want to buy livestock and process them, let them go ahead and
buy them in the daily marketplace, like everyone else does.

Anyone can come to WA, invest their $ and build an export plant.
Now at the end of the day, either there are people willing to
do that, or its all dreams and claimed dreams. The old KISS
principle is still the best. Either Pale have people serious about
building plants or they don't, IMHO the old put up or shut up
principle is highly applicable in this case.

“Firstly farmers prefer to own their farms, where they live, not joint venture them
with anyone from overseas, who might try to take advantage of them”

So true yabby.

You talk about small farms? What is your idea of a small farm? How do you see them fitting into your picture?

“Some say that animals are dropping like flies in paddocks especially in WA”.

This was discussed on Landline yesterday. They were saying that the only thing saving the farmers (and the sheep dying in those paddocks) was live exports.

So, coming back to animal welfare, which is better wenny, that they die a long painful death in the paddock or endure a sea journey? Which do you think is worse? This is not a question about live exports in general, purely about what is better for animals in this situation.

Your link does nothing to explain how you would staff all these new abbs.

Russia is looking for pork?? First I’ve heard of it. What does that have to do with live exports or halal meat.

Well done Benny..It is great to see a revival of the other 2 threads..they did get ugly because certain pple were NOT INTERESTED in valid debate and clearly had other agendas..

I think the live animal export issue is very important and Arjay says that kangaroos in this country have it far worse..well kangaroos can move around at will at least, sheep are locked away and kept prisoner, unable to escape theyre miserable conditions.

"..well kangaroos can move around at will at least, sheep are locked away and kept prisoner, unable to escape theyre miserable conditions."

I guess its an interesting question, is it better to hop around
as an animal slowly dies of starvation and thirst, a slow and
agonising death over a long period of time, or be confined with
ample food, water, shelter, gaining weight. Perhaps the animals
might not agree with you Rachel. Who said the conditions are
miserable?

Its well known Yabby..

Yabby
Now we are on track. PALE doents have funds for plants. They do have contacts with several people interested. Your right in saying- well put your money where your mouth is. Mark Vaile and the Howard Government would be the best blokes to do this. Best thing I can do is open another post so any farmers interested can go in and look at the Free listings of such people. PALE is pushing the MLA , AVA and Governments to get behind this programe and adopt it "as policy." Labour wake up.
It will take years to faze live exports and promote Free Range. We need it as policy now. We are not saying- Dont Eat Meat. We are not saying Ban Live exports overnight as much as we would like to see it stop. Have you even read this?
http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html

And For Goodness Sake PF there are many foriegn investments in Australia. You wont loose your land or your farm. They dont want to move in and camp with you.They cant take the land with them. They want direct Free Range farm animals and are prepaired to pay for it. They love the idea of having a investment in farms in Australia.

To answer your question what does pork have to do with Halal - nothing. We are not only working with Muslims but many countries that do eat pork. We started with Halal only because it is the longest trip on board ships to the Middle East. Thanks for telling us about landline. It was great!. You have much to be proud.
Rachhel 106 Sheep are locked away on ships. Good to see people who care.Dont let the old bullys put you off.
Good stuff PF
Good work from Animals Australia. Might send them a big bunch of flowers from old Benny.
I dont think I am supposed to say that but never mind. Can you look up your book of rules and codes for me pig farmers and let me know. There are so many quite frankly I dont know if I am Arthur or Marther.

Its clearly not well known Rachel, just various claims by various
animal welfare groups, all who seem to have their hands out for
public donations. Everything I've seen from them, they rely on
old historical footage, rather then up to date information.

Animal welfare now is big biz you know. I gather Peta's income
is over 20 million $ a year. Without something to claim, no doubt
the donations would not be so forthcoming. When will they start
improving the accuracy of their claims?

Australia has amongst the world's highest standards for animal
exports:

http://www.mla.com.au/TopicHierarchy/IndustryPrograms/LivestockExports/Default.htm

I remind you of the standards that apply to live exports. Have you
ever bothered to read them?

http://www.daff.gov.au/livestockexportstandards

If you want to destroy the living of thousands of farmers, you
are going to need some rather good reasons, not just out of date
information for your claims. Fact is, if live exports stopped
tomorrow, there would be far more suffering of both animals and
people, then there is now. No organisation has put up a credible
and workable option to live exports. Reality has to be faced,
so best to improve the trade, improve conditions in the Middle
East and other countries of the world. Clearly Australia leads
the field in these matters, as is evidenced above.

Yabby I seriously doubt you are anymore privvy to 'up to date info' than anyone else.

You spend most of your time..evenly spaced through out the day, on this forum,so I dont see that you actually get involved in any real way about the workings of live sheep exports, animal welfare issues nor anything else..its just not possible.

Do you realise for a man who is supposedly so busy(as you state on your 'hypocrites' thread re-old ducks beings talkers as opposed to you being the hands on farm man...the doer,the man who makes things happen..you and PF of course)you spend an awful lot of time in very close vicinity..rather like a housewife, to your computer??

Yet you are an expert on all the latest news re: live exports and every other subject.

It was pointed out on that thread also tthat you were the one who spent the biggest chunk of his life on this forum, in front of his computer as the ultimate 'keyboard cocky'...bravo

Yabby dont provide me with links to 'prove ' your point...give me proof that Animal welfare is wrong about live exports..

I think the keyboard cocky scenario fits you quite nicely...

I want proof..please...no links.Have you actually been on board any of these death ships?
Id be very pleased to know..or was that too much like actually doing something?

Taurus/Rachel, as you are a single mother, I understand all the time you have for posting here.

You seem to believe that farming is a 38 hours a week, 9 to 5 job. What are you doing at 5 am? Do farmers knock of 5? Do we get weekends off? No. Personally, my day starts very early and the first round of work would be finished before you even thought about getting out of bed. We generally organise our work so that we are not out in the heat of the day. We come and go all day until late. So, I can understand how a farmer could drop in a post at any time, whats your excuse?

Pigfarmer/pisces..what are u on about..?

I believe I was asking Yabby about his experience with live sheep exports?

Taurus and I are not related..sorry.

But you on the other hand have admitted as Pisces that you own a pigfarm near Inverell and thats where Pigfarmers farm is.

So Butcherbob..facts please.

Ozzie,I think you are a little confused. Pisces was telling us about a free range pig farm featured on Landline yesterday and today. No mention was made of who owns it.

Did you watch the program by the way? I thought it was great. I find it incredible that the intensive farmers honestly believe that what they are doing is in the best interest of the pigs.

Did you see him hosing all that crap off his pigs and then in the next breath, condemned eco shelters and deep litter because "the pigs just lay around in their own faeces"

That woman with her sterile farrowing unit. All those bars and cramped conditions. How natural is that? According to them, the pigs really do so much better in these controlled enviroments.

If there were affected by sever drought and dying in their paddocks, then I could accept that as being in their best interest.

PF, exactly! I don't think its occured to Rachel/Taurus, that
farmers pop in to their houses-offices in between chores, for meals,
cups of tea, data from the computer, other biz etc etc. Today's
good farmers actually spend quite alot of time on the net, as
knowledge is power and its all about smarter farming, not harder working
farming. Cutting edge innovation involves information. The couple
of minutes to reply to a post on OLO, is in fact neither here nor
there, apart from being a brief amusement.

R/T the links I provide are in fact evidence, if you bother to read
them. Alot of them are the latest info from Govt/semi Govt institutions,
accountable to the Australian parliament.

Cameron Morse's trip

http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/images/wellard-38--iegah.pdf

is one unbiased rural journalists account of what happens on live
sheep ships, just a couple of months old. If you question his
report, ring him up at the Countryman!

Compare that to animal libber websites, showing historical stuff
aboard boats which don't even exist anymore, whilst holding out
their hands for money, its fairly easy to establish who is credible.

Given that Benny claimed to live in WA in September and now claims
to live on the Gold Coast, clearly that source is not the most reliable
and is perhaps yet another figment of somebody's online
invention

Having read the article about Cameron Morse's journey on board the live transport ship I'm curious about a couple of things.
How old is this article,it's undated?
How un-biased can a farmer and stock agent's son be?
The accuracy of the vet checks concerns me as one check is as the sheep run off the truck and up the loading ramp onto the ship.
The Third Party vet had a team of how many qualified assistants to carry out his 57,000 vet checks?
Does the AQIS Officer also have a team of qualified helpers to carry out his checks?
This load of 57,000 sheep had 'loads of room' but what about when the ship is fully loaded with 71,500 sheep?
A vet and a stockman accompany these animals on their journey according to this article. Just two humans responsible for the care and welfare of 57,000 sheep?
Who is responsible for their welfare once they are unloaded?
What guidelines and standards apply to their welfare once they leave the ship?

A few more questions to increase my understanding of the live export situation.
Why does live export bring a higher return than carcass?
Why can't vets speak out about the live export trade?
Isn't the reason animals of whatever variety die in the paddock in drought conditions is because the farms are over stocked?
Didn't the Landline article pointed out that live export was providing some economic relief for the farmers rather than relief from sufferring for the beasts?

Yes wenny, Glenyce did well on Landline didnt she? All the respected animal welfare groups were invited to comment ... I agree, it was a great farm featured :) Not a metal bar in sight! Organic too.

As to your comment about overstocking being the cause for death of animals during drought? Just one lonely ewe is still going to die a horrible death in a paddock of dust and no water.

Your arguements against live exports seem to be just for the sake of arguement.

Wizard, that article was only the first of five that was published
in the Countryman in July-August. The Countryman is not freely
available online for all to read, but they subsequently agreed
to let Wellard publish the series on their website, so you
can read the rest of them, if you are really interested. That
should answer your many questions.

http://www.wellardgroup.com.au/media_centre/media_releases.phtml

Wizard..welcome to the thread..you ask some excellent questions..Id like to know the answers too..so I intend to get as much as I can and hopefully enlighten myself and if it helps you thats great.

Keep posting..we need fair and balanced input on this topic as not a lot of that happens on Live Export issues on this forum..certain posters dominate the topic and its all very onesided.

Welcome again.:)

Yabby. I have been reading those articles. Thanks for the links. One titled, “just look after the cargo Clinton” Just that heading makes you stop and think. The arguments I have read on this forum seem to infer that that the exporters just don’t care about how many sheep die, but isn’t it in their best interest that there are minimal mortalities? I would like to believe that anyway.

Wizard, I think you need to look a the bigger picture. A trained eye can spot problems with sheep in an instant. Because sheep are usually found in large flocks, it is something all farmers get used to. I doubt that this would be the first inspection ever made of the sheep either. The would have to have been inspected at saleyards, feedlots etc. I cant imagine why they would want to load unhealthy sheep can you?

There was a comment about ‘loads of room’ also that there were a lot of empty pens. So it would stand to reason that a larger shipment would be housed in those?

‘Economic relief for the farmer’ goes hand in hand with a better alternative for the sheep than dying horribly in the paddock.

And before you accuse me of ‘jumping ship’ I am trying to look at all sides here and find out what improvements have been made.

Yabby, is there any info on what is being done to improve slaughter conditions?

Pigfarmer(PF) there is nothing wrong with jumping ship..it only means you are trying to be better informed and more balanced in your approach, that has to be a good thing.

Blind allegiance is pure folly.

RT, it would be nice if you could actually discuss live exports
and stick to the thread, rather then get bitchy. I have posted
a number of links, you are free to read them, inform and educate
yourself, criticise on an informed basis so to speak. Then we
can all make some progress.

PF, thanks for taking the trouble to read some of those articles.
A balanced view is all I ask, I don't think that is unreasonable.
Life is not black and white, none of these issues are either.
Information from various sources can only further all our knowledge.

There is actually quite alot going on in the Middle East. One of the
mistakes has been that alot of information was going out to farmers
and people in the West, but that information was not goint out to
the general public, eg those in the Eastern States. I've contacted
people to change that, they tell me its in the process of happening,
but will take another few weeks to have it in place.

Interestingly the public survey discussed in the Weekly Times a couple
of weeks ago mentioned exactly that. ie the public want more balanced
information available on animal welfare. They don't think they are
getting it from animal activist groups or from the press, who often
sensationalise. So hopefully those changes will happen.

For your interest:

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/news/stories/s1197862.htm

RSPCA extends campaign against live exports

The RPSCA is stepping up its campaign to ban the export of live animals from Australia.

In newspaper and radio advertisements running from today, the RSPCA says the trade is unnecessary and cruel and hurting the rural economy.

National president Dr Hugh Wirth says 12,000 jobs and $1.7 billion could be generated if the trade was replaced with chilled meat exports.

"I think everybody is going to benefit from what the RSPCA is proposing: not only the farmer, but people in regional areas who have got more job creation, and also more money to spend in those areas; it will help the Government solve the infrastructure problems in the major capital cities due to immigration.

"There are people who do want to work in regional areas, but no jobs for them to go to."

But the live export industry says the RSPCA's argument is simplistic.

Meat and Livestock Australia says importing countries would find live animals elsewhere, rather than import chilled meat from Australia.

MLA's Mike Haywood says chilled meat exports to Saudi Arabia have actually fallen by 17 per cent, despite a ban on live exports from Australia since last year.

"It's based on an incorrect assumption: and the assumption is that if you close the live trade down, we'd simply sell more sheepmeat into the markets previously taking our live animals; and there's simply no evidence to support that: and in fact the evidence we have, which is what's happened when Saudi [Arabia] opened the markets in 2000 and then closed again last year; that evidence suggests there is no substitution of meat imports for live animals."

Celivia - that article was from 2004.

Do you know if their campaign had any success?

It would seem that live exports will not be halted in any hurry, so I think efforts to improve on conditions for those animals on the ships and at the other, would be better placed?

Live exports have actually increased since then havent they?

Celivia, Hugh is clearly wrong in some of the claims he made two
years ago, but then the industry has moved on a long way since
then.

Where are all these workers? Why don't they apply for the jobs
that are there, screaming to be filled? If there is so much
money to be made, why do these meatworks only pay 55c a kg for
mutton, compared to $2.40 from the live trade? Clearly Hugh
got his wires crossed then. You could always invite him onto
OLO, to debate the trade on a rational basis.

Yabby
Its Dr Wirth . I hardley think it appropiate you refer President of the RSPCA by his first name.

Cilia Dr Wirth is also President of WSPA. - World Soceity Protection
for Animals. As such he is better informed than most people not only in Australia but world wide.

Dr Wirth didnt get anything wrong. He also sits on many boards and has extensive material sent to him regually that most time does not meet the publics eye.

Dr wirth has a long stand against the cruel live export trade along with his organisation.

last year the RSPCA stepped up its protests against live exports.
Nornally a pretty conservative organisation they took the unual steps to take out major advertsing in all capital cities including radio as well.
The endless media realeases put out by dr Wirth over a long time are a matter of record.

I think the last media realse put out by the RSPCA and Dr Wirth was only just a few days ago.
They have made it clear to the Federal Government for years they totally oppose the live animal export trade.
No if and buts.

Nobody got it wrong especially Dr Wirth.

I feel sure Dr Wirth would not have the time to come on the OLO Yabby.

However if you do a Googles he has already left over fifty messages for the public expressing his outrage by the barbaric trade.
perhaps you could start there.

Well benny, get used to it, doctors are people just like you or
I, I am fairly sure that Hugh would have no problem with his
first name being referred to.

If Hugh got it right, where are all are all the workers? Why don't
they apply for the jobs on offer around the country?

Once again, the posts quoted from Hugh are years old. Things
have changed, get used to the reality of change, or life will
pass you by benny!

Thanks for the links to the Wellard articles Yabby. According to these articles this particular ship has 9 decks holding livestock with 22 crew/stockmen looking after the live cargo. So each worker could have 2630 sheep to , oversee each day, this includes emptying and scrubbing their water troughs, ensuring their food bins are full, the deck is cleaned and the animals that appear to be ill are removed to the hospital pens or for autopsy – busy, busy! What happens at night? Or do they care for the animals’ 24hrs a day on rotating shifts? Then there are those four daily inspections by the head stockman and the on-board vet, made as the sheep reel away at their approach. Hollowness might be easy enough to spot but pink eye would be trickier! Wellard’s would appear to be one of the best-case scenarios for live exports having some of the newest and purpose built vessels in the industry. Perhaps if Cameron Morse was to travel on one of the ships belonging to one of the 30 or more other carriers who continue to invest in vessels of outdated tonnage, missing all the welfare, safety and technical advantages offered by the newer purpose-built vessels (Steve Meewalds words) the articles may not have shown live exports in such a good light.

Here is what Dr Wirth had to say four weeks ago . I dont think its right you try to mis quote Dr Wirth or the RSPCAs official long standing policy on the cruel live export trade.

His job as a vet and president of RSPCA is to inform the public that live exports should be banned

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2006/09/20/1158431784440.html#

It is of great concern that despite three seperate Senate enquires in the past regading live animal exports from Australia all recomending a immediate ban on live Exports that it still exsists.
Australia in fact is the largest Live Animal Exporter in the world.
today I was speaking with a lady who lived in the middle east and worked for the Government. She was telling me she wrote to Steve Cibio years ago distressed that many sheep and others animals were taken back to peoples houses and slaughtered in their back yards.
She told me about her minder who proudly told her it was his nine year old boys turn to kill the sheep for the first time. He described how proud he was of his Son and what happend to that particular sheep.
it was a terrible time for them because another ship had been regected and there were so many on board dead already they were short.
Several people were pulling and fighting as to who was going to get a shep to take home and who was going to be left without.
She saw sheep ripped in half in the streets.

A huge amount of sheep are just sold to people to take home and slaughter.
There are no laws and all this crap about Australia now having a MOU with them[ Which you probably have not heard about fully yet.
is just that- crap. Most are kicked dragged and thrown into cars and killed in terrible ways. Often the animals is slaughterd in the different shop or whatever as a honour to vistors and a gift to allah.
No amount of money excuses that.

taurus29, thanks for the welcome, I’d love to know what you find out. Each side of the argument is very compelling and ultimately we have to decide which is more important to us individually the economic bottom line or what is humane.
PF, I’m sure a trained eye, such as a life long farmer, can spot problems. My concern is that there aren’t that many trained eyes on board the vessels when the animals are most likely to be distressed. The ship in the Wellard article sounds like it is one of the best and two of the animal carers had just two months training. Would not a better alternative to dying in the paddock be destocking before the situation became so terrible?

Nice to see you’re back, Benny. Thank you for that story- how horrible.

Yabby I know you're thinking that I am just too emotional that I get upset about stories like this?
I am not ashamed of being emotional about something I care about.

PF here’s a more recent article:

Mixed reaction to live cattle exports http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20522346-29277,00.html
Here’s one of those articles in where Dr Wirth gives his opinion.
Benny is right, he is someone that should be listened to given his expertise in this area.

Yabby, PF, I do realise that I do not nearly have as much knowledge about the live export trade as you have. PF you have been into farming for a long time, I don’t know about Yabby, but also some farming background I assume (in yabbies?).

I said a while ago that I don’t really want to discuss live exports because we were going around in circles and there were so many repetitions in the discussion that I think everybody was stuck.
I think that Benny’s posts are adding to this discussion.

I also said that I have a different view about the live trade than pro-live traders have. I just can’t see that it should be acceptable to export animals just because ‘otherwise they die in the paddocks’ or ‘otherwise other countries will do it if Australia won’t’.
I still see these as not good-enough excuses.

I feel that Australia’s effort should focus on improving conditions for cattle and sheep in the paddocks instead of on improving on ‘the ships’ or ‘the slaughtering methods in the ME’. Who really checks that the improved methods are implemented all the time? Is this reliable?

PF has done great things for the pigs and shows that it can be done- I really think this is a fantastic progression in pigfarming.

Freeranger has done great things for chickens and shows that it can be done.

It’s all a start, but now great things need to be done for other animals as well- our cattle and our sheep.

Is Australia a lucky country for animals right now?

Death ships: anger grows as sheep export toll hits 40,000
September 21, 2006
The Agriculture Minister, Peter McGauran, said 99.17 per cent of sheep arrived at their destination alive. The word ‘alive’ covers a multitude of sins doesn’t it ranging from bursting with health to barely breathing!
Dr Wirth said the mortality rate should not be the only measure of animal welfare. I think this is a fair comment, as animal welfare is concerned with the conditions in which an animal lives, many animals are subjected to horrific treatment but do not die.
As Australia is the largest Live Animal Exporter in the world don’t we have a duty to ensure that we set an good example for others to follow. We should also have the ability to influence others. Is there any Australian group or authority actively educating/convincing those who purchase our animals on how they should be handled humanely? Or why it would be better to purchase suitably slaughtered product instead?

Wizard

Welcome to the thread. I did see your earlier post I will try to answer those questions one by one over the next few days.
As you have raised all the important questions it may take some time to give you the answers.
It is welcome to have a person who is interested enough to ask all the important ones.

To your first question why does live export have a higher return that carcuss?
Well, Wizard there are a number of factors. The trade dollars plays a big part. Some will try to say if we stopped sending animals alive they would buy elsewhere.
AFIC Put out this Media R not so long ago which will go some way to explaing .
I will post it now and return to this topic as soon as I can post again.[ think I am running out]
Thanks Again for your interest in Animal Welfare Wizard.

AFIC Australian Federation of Islamic Council and other Islamic Councils have spoken out about cruelty. They have told RSPCA QLD it is a myth! That they require animals LIVE for religious purposes!

Wizard you can See The AFIC Media R by clicking here and scrolling to the bottom of this page.

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

You may also see some of the below listed there as well.
[1 ] Australian Muslims Against Animal Cruelty
[2]Transcript of Dr Hugh Wirth(RSPCA President) speaks of Christian role to be played against animal cruelty.
[3]HKM Live Exports Economic Report

[4] Letter from the Queen of England about live exports

[5] Letter from the Prince of Wales about live exports

[6]Letter from the Governor General about live exports ~ 02/22/06


The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils Media Release titled "Australian Muslims Are Against Animal Cruelty

This website is an appeal for human decency.

This site contains content that is not suitable for young children.
Please sign the Petition

Click Here To View The Petition


http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

There is also a link to sign the petition if you would like to do the houour

2630 sheep? Your knowledge or lack of it, about sheep is telling. Sounds like a small flock to me that one farmer would easily handle on farm. As for your comment about pink eye – even you could spot that, and from some distance. I don’t know too many farmers that camp out overnight with their flock either, that only happens in biblical style xmas caroles doesn’t it :)

ONLY two months training. What training did you have before you jumped on this boat (so to speak)

Celivia – I do understand where you are coming from. Although I feel the latter posting have started to mirror the last thread. I am not pro live export either, but I am not one to keep banging my head against the same brick wall.

Do you feel that this trade is going to be stopped? I don’t see it happening, wether we like it or not. Sometimes we have to compromise. I know that comment will bring howls of how we shouldn’t compromise on animal welfare but really, is the protesting that has been done gotten anywhere?

Quoting Hugh Worth achieves what? Come up with some of your own ideas to make conditions better for these animals instead of rehashing the same old stuff.

Letters from Queens, Princes, whatever – what difference have they made. Constantly posting them here has the same effect – biiggg yaaawwwwwn.

http://www.halakindmeats.com/submissions.html
http://www.halakindmeats.com/global.html

Wizard
The above links show a proposal to the Government and Senate enquiry which is supported by Mark Townend RSPCA CEO QLD
AFIC Australian Federation Of Islamic Council and the Humane Society International NSW. People have brought about ideas and its up to the public to support them and the Government to introduce them.

Peter McGauran Minister for Agriculture has expressed he finds the concept interesting in its principle and is awaiting a written proposal. John Howards office has contacted these people last week and is awaiting similar.

After having said that I personally feel nobody could do a better job than the Government of introducing this as a new policy.

It is with this view this policy was put to the Government.


What it takes is everbody working together and as the RSPCA are the Animal Welfare Authority in this country the more their good word is spread the better.

Cilia howls of protests is what changes many laws so keep up the good work. Its not rocket Science to have the common decency to slaughter the animals before they leave the country.

Your efforts in the Church Leaders have a responsibilty towards Animal cruelty have already helped. From that thread alone Griffiths University students doing jounalism have requested to do a report on the Live export Trade.

I am sorry Scout is not posting anymore as Scout has also brought about great points. Thats an example of what can be achieved with people working towards a common goal.

I said some time back I would put up a link so farmers can access Free contacts with people requiring contact with overseas purchasers

I still intend to do that however Iam in a difficult postion not knowing if such leads would be considered a commericial post despite it being something to assist farmers.

Do you have any thought on that Cilia?or Wizard.

What it would be is a list of people from overseas enquirying about Australian products.

Farmers could then have this information free of charge and make contact themselves.



Some might like to look >
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:-MtSnTDLbbMJ:www.churchilltrust.com.au/res/File/Fellow_Reports/Hides%2520Sue%25201999.pdf+mark+pearson+animal+lib+live+exports&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=10

Breaking Rural News : LIVESTOCK
ABA calls for push to re-open abattoirs to reduce huge queue
Australia
Wednesday, 18 October 2006

Australian Beef Association (ABA) chair, Linda Hewitt, today called on MLA and State Governments to assist in opening recently closed abattoirs.

Urgent action is needed, she says, to help stem the 'meat production disaster' that is engulfing Australia.

She said, “The flood of livestock on to the market is unprecedented.

"So is the speed of the crash to producers.

"When people are paying $1000 for breeders in one month, and in the next month, they are worth under $500, we are into new and frightening territory.

"It's a crisis which is galloping upon all those in the rural Australia.

"Our beef industry has good finished young cattle falling 33pc and good cows falling 38pc in price inside two months.

"Meanwhile the world market remains strong.

“Last week, Australia had filled only 255,000 tonnes of the 378,000-tonnes US beef quota.

"We have been shipping around 6,500 tonnes a week.

"So we will not even reach 300,000 tonnes by the end of November, the ‘cut off’ date for 2006.

How ridiculous!

"We won’t fill 80pc of the US quota.

"Yet we have prices diving to 1975 cattle depression levels.

"This is because ‘drought selling’ has triggered a huge backlog for killing and chiller space.”

Mrs Hewitt said that the MLA should be making the Government aware of this disaster.

MLA and Government jointly introduced the $5/head levy, plus the very costly NLIS and LPA systems, ‘to safeguard our markets’.

Action will assist in restoring employment, stem the price fall, and contribute to fill the remaining US quota.
Australian Beef Association chair, Linda Hewitt, calls for action.

Wizard Cilia. This is the start and if we all work together and multiply throughout Australia it will be a win for Animal Welfare and long term empoyment.

PF, once again you make some very good points! Most of the points
brought up now, as simply stuff thats been gone over again and
again over the various threads. 2600 sheep is
nothing for a stockman to look after on a boat. On modern
boats the feeding and watering systems are automated. Few on
farm sheep would receive the kind of treatment that those sheep
receive! Plenty of farmers run 10'000 sheep on their farms. If
a sheep gets pinkeye, it will simply get over it in time,
no medical treatments etc.

Yup, some sheep in the Middle East are slaughtered privately, as
are some sheep in Australia in the country. The trend in the
Middle East is however towards more and more abbatoirs, as they
urbanise, health regulations come into play etc, so Govts there
are pushing for it, if you read Arab News and similar.

Some of the cruelest things I've seen are actually by hobby
farmers here, when they try to shoot a cow with a .22 for meat
etc. My point is we have plenty of animal welfare issues right
here in Aus, before we arrogantly claim to be so perfect to
all other countries.

Yup, Hugh and the RSCPA have had a philosophical opposition to
live exports, as they have various campaigns, from being against Thai
elephant imports to campaigning for city people to take their
dogs for more walks. I haven't seen any comments by Hugh about
the newly introduced provisions for the live trade, apart from
his longstanding opposition. He is free to have that opinion.

In an ideal world lots of things would happen, but its not an ideal
world and we have to deal with reality as it is, it won't go
away, when we close our eyes and wish it would.

Three companies operate actively in the live sheep trade for meat,
I'm not talking about breeding animals etc exported. All their
boats have to meet the new standards, not just the Wellard boats.
How many decks a boat has is irrelevant. People live in multi story
apartments too.

Actually Banjo, if you look at my post on Graham's farmer subsidies
thread, I have already proposed a much better solution.

Cranking up old run down meatworks takes ages, huge money, USDA
accreditation can take months etc, only to shut those works
down again when droughts end.

Much better to simply introduce a flexible labour policy for
the meat industry, despite the howls of protest from the unions.
Meat production and response to droughts, as it fluctuates with
the weather, will never operate on an even 12 month supply.

The easy solution is to use already existing works, let them
double their shifts at times, by a flexible policy of bringing
in contract workers from China, Philipines etc. The only thing
holding that back is Govt policy, due to unions screaming I
suspect.

Oh! Dear, dear me ….. you must be pretty red faced hey wenny? Jumping around the office kicking yourself mm ?

Must have thought you stopped that identical post going to the wrong thread? And under the name of benny? Some one with the name of banjo patterson plagiarizing another poster? Nahh Wenny caught out, that’s what it is. lol!

i hope 'banjo' is too embarrassed to return after that one?

Another thing. . don’t yabby and I get a vote? After all, if we were’nt here, you’d be practically talking to yourself/s. So my opinion? I don’t want to see propaganda on the forum. I have a business too, but I don’t try and use the forum to shove it down peoples throats.

Really, how can you expect to be taken seriously.

I saw that 60 minutes episode too, the one were they cut the throat of that sheep in front of a shop? I hate to break it to you, but that’s how thousands of sheep are killed in this country. Its not just the farmers that do it for meat either. Plenty of townies turn up at saleyards looking for ‘killers’. Some of those ‘hobby farmer’ on their ‘sea change’ are the worst as yabby says. Trying so act like hard arses. I know a few farmers that prefer to cut the throats of injured and dying sheep because they believe that it is more humane than trying to hit that tiny brain with the first shot. There is a reason they cut throats instead of shooting meat animals, but as you know so much about abattoirs and such, you could tell me?

Yabby..yes I fully agree with you about trying to shoot cattle with a 22..going back a few yrs ago, in yet another drought on Anna Creek station where there a 100s feral cattle..were shooting that station then and the amount of cattle we came cross bogged in dams was heartbreaking...I tried to shoot as many as I could because they were so hopelessly bogged and just kept returning and becoming bogged again, especially if they had a calf stuck.

The station owner tried to shoot a few using a .22 and it was very cruel.

That drought was very cruel and at that time as well the goverment provided a bounty on dingoe scalps..we shot hundreds of starving mangy dogs living inside the carcasses of dead cattle.

A 22 really only deals with rabbits effectively.

PF..when we were kids my father used to catch a killer once a week..
He used to cut its throat..of course we never used to hang around at that time..it was disturbing to us being kids..but was the only way, being way out on a station we could get fresh meat.

Same thing when he wanted a pig..he ran a few..it was do it yourself or go without.

I dont think things have changed much for a lot of farmers. Some do it really tough and thats the best way they can provide meat for the family. For the uninitiated it probably sounds pretty grusome.

I would say that a very large proportion of city folk fall into that catagory so would have a new jerk reaction when they see it on TV. They like to keep their distance from that sort of reality and when they are confronted, like in a 60 minutes story, they forced to deal with it. Unfotunately the reaction seems to be something like - end lve exports and i will never have to think about those sheep having their throats cut again!

I see it when people come to stay here. A typical response to a pork roast "but its not one of yours is it?" My answer - "no of course not, this is from woolies :)" No point trying to make them to deal with the fact they are eating a dead pig. They just wont eat it! Not all visitors are like that, just a few too many. I have a friend thats makes me swear I will not serve anything that was once living on the farm. She doesnt trust me anymore and brings her own!

That is over simplifying I know. I even quickly wipe the vision of those cattle having their tendons slashed to enable the slaughter men to handle them. That was outright cruelty and lets hope nothing like that happens in this country. There are some very cruel people out there, but farmers, live exporters etc should be judged on their own merits, not lumped in with a pathetic minority.

Great to see Benny back and rightly so..and welcome Banjo...we need good strong intelligent debaters on here. :)))

Rachel06
Thank you for the compliment but I am just like everybody else learning as I go and listening to all on the table to find alternatives to live exports.
I note your posts above and see you are a country girl yourself. I saw your post on the shooting of feral animals and the running the four wheel drives into them so I know your the real deal because yeh thats the way it goes down.

Others raised different issues of slaughtering methods.
I think thats is such an important issue perhaps another thread should be opended. Possibly Bango might like to do that or somebody else like PF or Yabby. As far as I am concerned there is a fair argument in the right circumstances to argue yes to cut the throat of an animal instead of a shot''at times' and in certain conditions can be kinder. Preference however would be that all animals were slaughtered at abattoirs with strict guide lines.
Yabby I think raised a very good point about what goes on in regional areas outside the public eyes. I will look for your post on the other thread with interest. Nobody said however the plants were being opended only to be re closed. Where do you get that idea from. kosha in my books is the worste of all. It all comes back to more laws required and enforcable codes of practises. More inspectors for the RSPCA
The Animal Welfare act is the only act of Australian Parliment that simply is not enforced.
More shared resonsibiltys between the police and RSPCA is required.
Animals Australia also have pushed for the changes for a long time.

Still warts and all Animals do have a far more supervised method of slaughter in Australian abattoirs. That brings me back to not wanting to get off post and staying on the live Animal Export thread.
However if somebody started another thread on slaughtering methods I would certainly be interested to support it

Rachel, who are intelligent posters on here is a matter of opinion:)

PF, good points about city slickers and meat. If alot of them took
a tour of a meatworks, they would die of shock, its heads flying off
and blood everywhere, but thats the reality of it, close your
eyes if you will. Watch a lion kill an antelope, thats pretty messy
too, not all harmonious bliss, as many claim nature to be.

My ex is actually a lovely lady, but she is only happy in cities,
where she has her shopping centres, fingernail parlours etc.
To give her credit, she tried country life, but you either love
it or not, somehow I think there is a genetic component, its not
something you can force. So we split amicably. Personally I can't
live in cities anymore, its just not me.

PFs post reminded me of one day, when the ex insisted that she wanted
to watch me butcher a lamb. Against my better instincts, I
eventually gave in to the nagging :) I kind of knew what would
happen lol. Sure enough, she never ate home butchered lamb again,
but the stuff in the supermarkets, in plastic, on little black
trays, that was ok :)

I've just been reading the Weekly Times, a Victorian farming
paper, plus watching the news about the Eastern States situation.

Thousands of cattle are being trucked from Victoria to Qld,
as they have a bit more slaughter capacity there. In Vic and
SA they are discussing digging holes to bury unwanted sheep,
as meatworks can't cope. Many are selling for 1$ a head,
so farmers are losing bigtime and will need help.

Benny-wenny etc, if you really want to make a difference,
get the Govt to change its union dominated, inflexible
meat industry employment policy! Meat production is
different, they are live animals, rainfall is unpredictable.

We ignore that at our peril. Many meatworks stand empty
for 16 hours a day, lack of staff. Fly them in as required,
seasonally, they benefit, we benefit, the animals benefit.

Win-win situations is what we need, I am proposing one!

union
You say? Are you sure Yabby? Since when did Howard not have control over the Senate . Is it not true that thousands of workers are coming to take up jobs here? Why do you think it is that its so hard to get them to do more for abattoirs and workers of abattoirs umm? I mean god forbid the Government used its powers to call if you like a state of emergency to rush workers over here into plants. Why they could even come up with the novel idea Yabby that it was an animal welfare and farmer emergency.
No Yabby its not the unions they are concerned about.
As you once said the Government made certain changes years ago and descions to work with the trade dollar and the huge corperate companies involved support their party.
Tell you what though there is nothing wrong in what you are saying.
In these circumstances for now I would suggest they do something with the Government and get some workers over here pronto even if they slaughter here and send whole carcuss. Malaysia would do that in a heart beat. You could ring your State Ministers office down there and I will call Peter Beatties office up here. After all they each are also ministers of Trade for their own states.
Maybe while you are calling you could ask John Howard considering we were so kind to people in the Tsuame if we could have a thank you back in Bananas.
We could as you suggested do a back to back. .
Its a pity the animals must be trucked so far but its a start.
Do you know which plants they are going to up here?
I would prefer to fly staff to Vic if you know who the operators are. Do you?
By the way I read your post on the farmers thread.
I left a post there.
yabby the way to bring staff in is to bring them in as students to learn English and provide training . Korea are interested to run such programes.

Slaughtering of animals is hardly off topic wenny. After all, isnt the question 'what are people against live exports about?'

How can people that know nothing of the subject make an informed opinion? Like I said, a person's whole reason for wanting to ban live exports could be to get that vision of sheep with cut throats out of their heads.

All you vegetarian, animal welfare groups are missing a great opportunity to exploit this really. Teach people the truth about were their food comes from, you might get some converts :)

How can people that think milk comes from cartons, woolies manufactures eggs, meat comes on little black trays and only middle eastern countries cut the throats of sheep, possibly be taken seriously when they join a campaign against 'whatever' cause. I think they just jump on the band wagon, do a lot of talking, raise funds for god knows what, interrupt the lives of hard working farmers and brand farming as cruel. And for what? They can forget what the saw on 60 minutes and move on. Just take that idiot on another thread who thinks all farming should be banned. How many like him are there? Scary.

My sister is a primary school principal. She tells me that from next year they are going to start to teach children about farm animals. She quickly added that it still would not be what I wanted them to hear. They will be using the softly softly approach - milk comes from cows, eggs from chicken etc. Whos going to teach their parents?

Pisces PF Butcherbob MoneyH Clown

Its important the public know the difference between PETA Animal Liberation and main stream people.
The best way to teach people is to stick to RSPCA guide lines. RSPCA are not against people eating meat but believe the animal should be slaughtered as close to the farm it came from as possible.
Your words all "you" vegetarian groups could mislead the public. Considering the title of the thread is- What are People Against Live Exports about.
People Against Live Exports are main stream people who work with the Branch of RSPCA QLD to assist in brining about changes and to find alternatives to live exports. People who would prefer animals were slaughtered before leaving the country and exported in boxes.
There has been many posts covering the more extreme groups that protest about people eating meat. Its been made clear people Against Live Exports are not vegetarians, although everybody is welcome to have input regarding Animal Welfare. To discuss slaughter methods such as kosha, Halal and our Australian method of the bolt really requires another thread. I am particularly interested in the gas plants being used for -
Why dont you open one considering your involved in the meat industry. Its up your alley. I certainly would be very happy to discuss slaughtering methods there. Representatives from Malaysia expressed interest in looking at this use for their Halal Slaughter last year.
Yabby has put up a good idea couple of threads back so I am more interested to take his advise and make some enquiries as to how this idea could be put forth asap. Although its clear there is a greater requirement for refrigeration accross the broad.
Do you not agree it is a excellent idea of Yabbys?
If everybody actually thought before they posted like he has on this ocassion it would help a great deal.
Yes I did notice that other person. Surely your not surprised.
Scarey isnt it and it will only get worse under the new media laws.

Wenny, I'm not sure if you understand how the art of politics works.
The libs may well control the Senate, but they also know that there
is an election next year and that IR laws will be an issue, so
want to give away no reason for it to become a bigger issue.

Meat unions have complained loudly about 457 visas, despite not
having the workers to fill the jobs. There was a big drama case
in SA about it. When WA abattoirs tried to bring in 160 workers
to deal with the drought here, the Feds made it so hard, with
29 pages of rules, including paying school fees for the kids etc,
that the whole project fell through and was canned. The whole
thing is coming from Vandstones office, its not a state issue.

What the meat industry needs, is a simple, flexible system, as
it will always be a seasonal industry, as rainfall will always
vary. Not everyone wants to come and live here, some prefer their
countries, they just want the relatively big money they can earn
here, save it up for 6-9 months or whatever, take it home and
live like kings there, in their own cultures, families etc.
So why not let them? Its a win-win all around. The only ones
against it are unions.

The libs won't let it happen, for that reason, allowing for the
upcoming elections. If labour agreed with it, it would be a different
story, then it could not become political.

Yabby
You are absolutly one hundred percent correct. Gavern Oconner and his adviser have made several noises about meeting to discuss this issue. I personally think Simon Crean has the forsight but I also know the issue is knocked on the head by Jack Lake. If Beaszley had another adviser it would go a long way to fixing some of these problems. labour are a major contribiter to the cause for live exports in the first place. Remember the Government are brining in thousands of overseas workers Yabby next year to take up different jobs in regional areas. Its mainly the meat works thats got the huge no go sticker. Its not only the uniouns but opposition from the big corps who push the live animals export trade.
Yes the elections are next year which is why the public need to know who is against bring in abattoir workers to make life more humaine for animals. Once they understand they can write to the relavant labour Minister and Beazley to voice their views. Enough letters and you might get a change of policy. the AVA should also support your idea along with RSPCA. Its certainly worth chasing up.
Lets not even talk about Amanda with her high animal welfare standards I am not a idiot and i assure you I understand where the preshure is coming from- both the unuions and the people with conflicts of interests.
like I said your idea is good.

I see Benny and Pigfarmer are muddying the waters again...

The carpark is the place for this.

I think you make a good point PF about teaching pple the realities of farm life..of course pple should be fully informed about all aspects of realities for animals especially those that hit their table in the form of BBQd chops, casseroles or whatever..

People from the city simply arent in touch for the most part about where and how theyre meat is farmed,slaughtered and packaged in preparation.
On another thread I did suggest graphic labelling to be placed on meat packages in order to address this very issue..but some suggested this might be to much for the sensitivities of some..esp, children..but I see graphic labelling on cigerette packs and see also that is having an impact in alienating some smokers who previously didnt respond to any other scare tactics..Tv is another good medium.

Your account re tendon cutting in cattle is really awful and cruel.

So yes..city folk ought to given a dose of reality about cruelities inflicted on helpless animals so they may have a nice , clean presentable product.

And Yabby you recount the story of your ex-not wanting to eat home slaughtered lamb..but is she representative of MOST city folk I wonder..its kind of suggesting that most women are illogical and irrational and I dont believe we all fall inot that category.

Yabby I for one happen to think that rachel06 was right on about intelligent posters..really no need to go there was there?

I noticed a post from rachel 06 was removed from this thread only today..anyone know why...mmmm..?

Anyone..PF..?

Taurus, unfortunately, when attention is brought to a thread as it was today, the post suggested for deletion is not the only one looked at. There were a few deleted today, mine included. I was enjoying rachels input.

Taurus, I for one will try to never lose my sense of humour. You
can take the "intelligent posters" comment as you wish.

I can't see why you would want to put gory labels on meat packets.
For what purpose? If consumers saw how most of the products which
they buy are manufactured, they might think twice about buying lol.

I've seen kitchenhands in an expensive hotel, playing football with
the breadrolls, then put them on the breakfast plate of fine diners.
The list is endless. If you see how cosmetics are made, in great
big mixing tubs, their value really goes up in the packaging.
A friend of mine worked for the company who made them. Their sales
were down, so they put the price up 40% and sold 30% more. Women
associated cheap price with a bad product I guess. So much of
marketing is an illusion and many people live a life of illusion.
They watch holywood movies, thats their understanding of the world.

As far as my lambs go, they have happy and carefree lives. Yup,
when they die its messy, but all death is messy, including human
death. We all have to face it, no matter what species. Some try
to believe it won't happen to them, so they believe in souls as
comfort. Fact is, we are emotional creatures who think a little,
seldom the other way around.

Yabby..your right that pple associate lower prices with lesser quality and I must admit, as silly as it sounds, the nicer something is presented ie:packaging etc , I am more tempted to want it, so the market researchers got that one right.:)

Yes and there pple who prefer not to know how theyre meat is dealt with before being delivered to the butcher or supermarket shelves..but I think there would be more pple than you give credit, that would actually think a bit beyond the Hollywood image portrayed to them..
We all buy into something is my point..if its not Hollywood stererotypes for some, its other forms of marketing..you as a farmer might be asked to buy certain farm produce and be marketed to from that perspective and without realising it you will actually be influenced one way or another in your choices..There is a very clever market research team behind every product we purchase and the final choice is rarely really ours to make alone.

Taurus29

I have been reading some of the comments and your idea of food labelling for dairy and meat products.

Thats not as silly as it sounds. People have a right to know where who and how the product was produced.

Maybe the animal rights could insist that the Ministers who support this intensive farming have their picture on the front of the pack of meat.

Cant you just imagine it. They could have Amanda up on the pork or perhaps you might be able to think of some other person

That ought to work as a deterrent.

So what do you think would be a good face for the poor old intensive poultry packs?

Anyway I thought your point was a valid one.

That other lady Rachelo6 seemed pretty spot on too.

I would just like to get the thread back on topic...

October 16th..Yabby said that kangaroos even though not locked aboard a ship would die slow horrible deaths(in drought conditions I assume he meant) anyway as opposed to sheep who are stowed aboard a ship living the life of Riley..ie fed, watered, regular pedicures and the like..

I mean..the furphy that kangaroos die slow horrible deaths simply isnt true...

Kangaroos are migratory animals and will travel 100s miles to follow rain and resulting feed...shooters know this too well.
So Yabby Im not sure what kind of roos you actually know on a personal basis , but not the same ones I know.

"who said the conditions are miserable'..I ask you then..who said they werent?

Taurus, when you have a largescale drought as now, you can hop as
long as you like, if other roos ate all the feed before you got there
you will still starve.

Talk to some people who really know whats going on in the bush,
not city slickers who pretend to know something or live out of
touch, on the Gold Coast.

Sure.. your right ,if that is, the drought were country wide, and it isnt..in regional NSW right now for instance where my sister lives, it is very green.This is where migrating roos end up..previuos to that it WAS bone dry.Its rare that the whole of a state is in drought crisis at the same time..if that were the case..roos would have died out a long time ago..as would many other species.
Its never been that the whole country has been bone dry all at the same time..and animals that can migrate ,do.

Why do assume that a person cannot have an opinion that is wholly their own Yabby?

How does the person who lives on the Goldcoast get dragged into everything.?Can you tell me that?

Taurus29 is spot on about the drought and the migratory habits of roos, it makes complete sense..for as he/she says if the drought were so severe as to obliterate all plain feeding animals then it would have happened long ago and we wouldnt now be discussing it.

This is not the only drought that has been this severe and Im sure in the last thousand years or so, there has been worse...

http://www.livexports.com/roo.html

Worldgirl

Perhaps you might find it more helpful to ask Antje Struthmann any question you may have on Roos. You may see some of Antjes work by clicking on the above link.
Antje known internationally as the Marsupial Whisperer is resonsible for the draft plan for the new Harvesting accreditations by kick starting the project which was spear headed through by RSPCA QLD CEOMr Mark Townend.

Mark who also works tirelessly with many special projects towards improving animal welfare was able to take Antjes information and put it into practise by way of a new law.
Any questions re Roos I know she would welcome.

Antje now works on special projects on the Gold Coast. Such as the ban Live Export campaign in conjuction with RSPCA QLD

Ok Taurus, so read what the CSIRO says about roos dying of hunger.

http://www.csiro.au/files/mediaRelease/mr1998/KangaroosFactfiction.htm

Fact is roos are much the same as other species in evolution theory.
Yup, some will survive in odd pockets, lots will die a miserable
death. Its limiting their numbers that causes not so many to die
as nature would cause. Now lets say roo numbers had been 5 times
higher. There would not be a blade of grass left anywhere, so
most would die.

They did an interesting experiment once with deer, on an island
off the US coast. They put 50 deer on there and no predators. The
theoretical capacity was around 1700, ie. feed that could grow
in a normal rainfall year. They built up to 5000, then all but
about 50 died of starvation.

This started Yabby about the comparison re-sheep penned up on a boat versus roos dying of hunger(your asssertion)..Im not saying some roos dont die of hunger, I am saying that as opposed to sheep locked away on a boat where they are reliant on man to care for them,taking into account all their needs on long hauls overseas..roos have it relatively good.
At least the roo has the option of save himself based on his own wits and survival skills where the sheep hasnt that choice.

Yes drought is hard on all land animals.Roos do migrate and they usually do find food..not many roos die of hunger..not saying it doesnt happen though.

Ill read your link .

Having read your link Yabby:)(hi)

It is plain to see the guy who wrote this article has never left his office let alone let alone done any evidenced based research into his claims..

First of all he says roos have been around 5 million years and then he says that roos are not dying now because they have convenient access to dams.So he bases his research on this?

Well I doubt there were any dams around 5 million yrs ago..so what did roos do..they followed rainfall patterns thats what.
Any shooter worth his salt knows that the reason he goes out to his usual property, were he was assured of always a good load, suddenly to find not a roo to be found..they shoot thru pretty quick.

We were always being told by idiots that roos were becoming exticnt,, you had to laugh actually because we,d go out on any given day or night and see swarms of red plain kangaroos moving in droves..

He did his research and collated his 'facts' from the same place these bludgers did, on his arse.

And the deer were kept on a confined area such as an island..of course they were going to eat themselves out..cant move to greener pastures if you confine them to an island can they? they are also a plain animal..they also follow rain and grass.

Cute story though.

"not many roos die of hunger..not saying it doesnt happen though"

How do you know how many roos would die, without human intervention
of shooting some? His point is that high roo numbers in Australia
are due to humans digging water points, a valid point. If it comes
to trusting you or CSIRO, let me just say that CSIRO wins hands down:)

Yup, they put the deer on an island. Australia is a large island.
Given enough numbers over enough area, the exact same principles
apply! Sheesh

Nope, live sheep don't die a slow painfull death of hunger or
thirst, as many wild animals do. But yes they will die, just
like you will die. The worms will eat even you :)

I think Yabby that all this stuff about roos dying in drought is just a red herring to deflect from the real issue regarding live sheep export.

You can argue on forever that roos dye in drought , I wont argue,some do , but not a disproportionate number..they are survivors..they ARE migratory animals as are deer..that was my point anyway..as for the validity of that report..Since when were the csiro the holy grail of reporting?

Some lazy, unmotivated buggers in their offices I can tell you.

That 'report' is from 1998..very scant on any kind of real information and just a little bit irrelevant.

Also I might like to point out that every country is just a glorified island..but the word usually conjures up Christmas or Kangaroo island in my mind.

I would rather trust my own experience when it comes to anything to do with kangaroos..that includes you and the csrio..
I know what Ive seen and I know how penpushers can distorte facts and numbers to suit themselves.

Just like to put my 2 bobs worth in here..

It would seem to me that human intervetion has little to do one way or the other about populatory numbers of kangaroos.
They exist at times in vast numbers over much of Australia and in huge areas no dams or discernable water sources to be found..these animals can travel over a 100 miles in a day easily and indeed cross borders back and forth regularly.
They derive most of their moiture from grass and other foliage and exist as moist native animals do on these sources alone when they have to.

Wombats and the like ,especially on the Nullabor dont have access to waterholes..there are a few underground caves and some animals make use of it but most do not.There is an abundance of all kinds of wildlife out there..Dingoes, rabbits, roos, wombats etc...no dams to be seen though and my time was there as a shooter in the drought.

"I think Yabby that all this stuff about roos dying in drought is just a red herring to deflect from the real issue regarding live sheep export."

Well actually its about city slickers accepting the reality of
nature, not what Hollywood taught you. All those fuzzy wuzzy
hormones distort peoples thinking too, if you follow neuroscience
at all.

"Since when were the csiro the holy grail of reporting?"

Well when it comes to good science, they are in fact the bees knees
in Aus and have a reputation of being world famous. So when it comes
to credibility, ignore them at your peril.

If you can prove CSIRO wrong, thats fine. Do it with facts.
Meantime if its you versus CSIRO, my money is on them :)

List of Up to date info on drought areas in Australia

FYI

Drought stricken areas NSW
http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/drt-area-200610-large.gif

Exceptional Circumstances NSW and the ACT Map of EC declared and prima facie areas
http://www.affa.gov.au/content/output.cfm?ObjectID=50558734-8C7F-4C70-9E212AA8276393A8

Victoria
Exceptional Circumstances EC Boundaries - Victoria
http://www.bom.gov.au/announcements/media_releases/climate/drought/20061004.shtml

Exceptional Circumstances (EC) Boundaries South Australia
http://www.affa.gov.au/content/output.cfm?ObjectID=CE1AF38C-5903-4495-B6CA579519C0E17F

Exceptional Circumstances (EC) Boundaries Western Australia
http://www.affa.gov.au/content/output.cfm?ObjectID=50558734-8C7F-4C70-9E212AA8276393A8

Queensland Drought situation
http://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/QueenslandDroughtMonitor/QueenslandDroughtReport/HiddenArea/LatestDroughtTable.pdf

Droughts in Tasmania
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/2f762f95845417aeca25706c00834efa/595289D16641D263CA25710E00756145?opendocument

Fire Note
http://www.bushfirecrc.com/publications/downloads/BCRC_Firenote_Seasonal_outlook220906.pdf

I was watching landline yesterday and the grim picture for sheep graziers. Old ewes being sold for $1, excellent lines of merinos sold for $15 a head. It does seem that the only thing saving a lot of farmers is live exports.

Now, the farmer that only got $1 for his ewes, what do you think he is going to do with the others he has in his paddock if he cant find a better price than the saleyards?

I have seen many comments on other threads from posters that profess to care about the australian farmer and how much we should support them. Do they really mean what they say?

My question to any people against live exports - at what point do you stop putting animal welfare before human welfare?

Worldgirl
Good thread.
Real farmers kill themselves laughing at many of the CSIRO reports that are adopted by Government and others when setting quota etc regarding many issues.
They dont have to search the net they just know the real deal.
There is if every you are interested a educational farm stay just off the Gold Coast that lectures on Roos and farm animals.

http://www.mysterymountain.com.au/

Anytime your passing do drop in for a week.

People concerned about animal welfare are always welcome
On the House.

Might even be able to russle up some Roo Stew. Or there are some Yabbys kicking around .

We pick up the praws fresh off the trawlers and everybody has a good time while learning about wildlife and animals.

Doors open jump hop in.

PF

The best people to answer your question are the RSPCA who have a long standing objection to live exports.
We know this country has drought so lets look at taking some reasonsibilty
You cant just say oh well.
A good business person plans things not just lets animals suffer because they got it wrong yet again. That is called irresponsibly.
Didnt you mention on a earlier thread you had a RSPCA accreditation for some sort of farm project.
Goodness me do you not feel if that really is the case it might no it be a rather large embarresment to them if you are now supporting the very trade they stepped up their public camping against recently?

It was only months ago that the RSPCA for the first time in its history used radio and newspaper advertising against live exports .
They were even critized for doing their job with claims it was done purposley just before elections.
RSPCA are strongly opposed to the cruel live export trade along with every other animal welfare group not only Australia wide but world wide.
Nobody condones it that has regard for animal welfare.
I am not talking about money but animal nothing justifies such barbaric cruelty .
This is mainly die to large body corps who are not farmers. I know many many many real farmers who refuse to send thei animals live. They make sure they go to local slaughter only.
Live Exports is our nations greatest shame. The whole world is talking about our Cruelty to animals. We are far too far from the rest of the world. It is utter cruelty and madness and its about time the uniouns fixed there major part in this.
Labour do you not feel any reasonsibilty to fixing the mess you helped to create?

You cant have one foot in each camp. People are either for animal welfare and support RSPCA totally or they are not.
To be in both camps at the same time makes people hypictrits
Here are a few words from RSPCA about live exports
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/tas/content/2006/s1593490.htm

And just what do they teach you at these Kangaroo lectures?

How to dress your kill and prepare it for the "Roo Stew"

What is their preferred method of slaughtering roos up there?

That comment truly deserves a place on the Animal Libbers are hypocites thread.

PF..well worded and very important question re. how tough graziers are doing it in the drought, indeed what do they do?

Although live experts are a less than satisfactory option from the animals point of veiw..what does the drought stricken cocky do..?

The government is offering a form of drought relief now..but their 'research' based (csrio)reports that they calculate their numbers on, instead of getting off their own behinds and taking a look, falls way short of anything like what they need.Farmers are stating the obvious when they say its not enough..

Also the reason the government is losing the best we have to offer re whoever..businesses,farmers,actors,..all our best talents..they go overseas.
Governments need to get behind them in a real way..our farmers/cockies are too important to let them go under.

Thats not even to touch on the question of land degradation issues.

"Thats not even to touch on the question of land degradation issues."

Excellent point Taurus. If farmers are able to destock and sell at some sort of reasonable price, the land would have a much better chance of recovery when the rain does come. This sort of drought cannot be predicted and managed as some suggest. Things are looking pretty grim. The ways things are going there may be no sheep to export anyway :)

Nedkelly - What RSPCA accreditation do you mean? I dont have anything to do with them in connection with my farm. Even if I did, I dont have to agree with everything they say. I dont know that they have a set of rules for people that support them do they?

If Taurus made such an 'excellent' point why did you pop in and get him banned PF?

Thanks for your time PF..cant say it was a pleasure however.