Pericles: "If Christianity were a Marxist doctrine, aqvarivs, then either Jesus or Karl completely screwed up somewhere along the line."

Too funny. My partner just asked me if I'm alright as I was choking on my beer (and she's in the next room...)

aqvarivs: "...moral considerations for ewe and me."

That's what started it :D

Pericles, your socialism has long proved defunct. It was so pathetic of a system that it managed through bitter human depredation, degradation and out right murder to hold out for 70 years. Time you kissed it goodbye and got on with living in the world of merit. The idea of a lobby is counter to merit and is the purchasing of special consideration and is by that extent corruption of good government. And is corruption of democratic government by the guile and manner practiced by the communist. A peoples system of caste.

What your grannie was trying to tell you was to get off your ass and do for yourself because sit'n an' wish'n don't get the hoe'n done. Nor does leaving it hoping for somebody else to carry your weight.

And spare us your extreme ultra right hyperbole. What Anne Coulter has to say is designed to push your leftist buttons.

If Christianity was Marxist God would be dead. And old Karl would have been a Nazi, and not living in a German Jewish ghetto. And not angry at his religion and people for not having the power and position of controlling German political society. And not having been fundamentally responsible for the 20 odd millions of Russians who were forced by the few to swallow such tripe and paid for that experience with their lives during the 'revolution'.

I have to hand it to you aqvarivs, you do have a way with words.

But if I were you, I'd stub that roach before you start trying to use them. On this occasion they don't seem to have come out in any particular order.

But please, don't bother to explain what you meant. I may not have understood any of it, but I still got the message.

I have to disagree with the myth that Jesus was some how moral. Clearly the new testament states Christ as exclusionary , Only his guru followers are promised immortality for the ritualistic killing of their guru. Of course its Pauls influence on the second century Harry Potter placed the basic value of exclusion and the chosen (those who become immortal by worshipping Christ) forms the whole foundation of Christian views. Even the Samaritans were destined for damnation and they were better people than Christs devotees.

If Jesus were as good as Christians claim it would still be irrelevant because faith is the extreme form of meglamania. Aside from the ambition to be immortal like god , all interpretations of the fiction and theologies are self serving. George Bush for example was once a drunk and drug abuser with a reputation of callousness and apathy to the plight of others. He found Jesus so he gave up the booze , so what? it was his own fault. As a Christian morally he is no better a man. Even with Jesus claiming it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven is claimed by prosperity christian cults for the eye to mean city gates although in the claimed Arabic and "ancient Persian" it is not true. Theologically then it reads it is easier for a camel to enter a gate than a rich man to enter a gate. Why bother?
Of course the black magic Christian cults offer gimmicks such as speaking in tongues and healing and other nefarious semi hypnotic experiences of enjoying the inner self.

Prayer is an intraspective occult ritual.While praying often the eyes are closed, no real external empathy for the world outside the skin. Christian music is all "me,me,me". The Christian rule is preach but dont listen to others.The ridiculous intelligent design pseudotheory is a result of this. Such level of meglamania will assist the ambitious politician , bad enough also the corruption of bias benifiting Christian groups.

"I have to disagree with the myth that Jesus was some how moral. Clearly the new testament states Christ as exclusionary , Only his guru followers are promised immortality for the ritualistic killing of their guru."

I think I'd like to see you explain this - so we can at least discuss. You use the word 'clearly' by mistake surely?

Don't forget - Christ wasn't a christian - his teachings speak for themselves and are pretty distinguishable from both old testament teachers and those alive today who pass off old testament teachings as his.

aqvarivs, i have absolutely no fear of moral considerations for you, or for your ewe, or for me. and i certainly have no fear of moral considerations based upon the words of christ, which i find insightful and often beautiful.

what i fear, and am disgusted by, are moral values that others declare as god-given, and which are thus undebatable. and what i fear, and am disgusted by, are people who claim no morality is possible without genuflection to their god. in this regard, i am equally disgusted by the moral arrogance of all theistic religions.

i'm as moral as benson or you or boaz or runner, and i am appalled that anyone can suggest otherwise, simply because i don't believe in magic.