I am not suprised John Stone aspires to found a society in the memory of a murderous torturing rascsit bitch such as was Queen Isabella.
He probaly has a little grotto at the end of his garden now where he lights candles for the repose of her soul.

John Stone chooses as his figurehead Queen Isabella, who, with her equally creepy, cruel husband, King Ferdinand, created the Spanish Inquisition, drove the Jews out of Spain, and so on. I am 52, Sydney born and bred, and someone who has lived and worked with Australian Muslims for years; I suggest that the miserable opinions of has-beens like Mr Stone not be countenanced in a forum such as this any more than a rant against Jewish Aussies would be. You are an appalling man, Mr Stone, and you don't know what you are talking about. One can only wonder how many Muslim Australians your racist views have sadly prevented you from getting to know. You have missed out on so much, but my pity for you does not extend to acceptance of your right to promote bigotry and further division in the Australia I love.

It is refreshing to see a respected and accomplished man such as John Stone having the courage to say what the majority of Australians are thinking.
Is it racist? If it protects our country from the inevitable, look to France, England, Belguim, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, then who cares?
I have worked in the Middle East over a number of years and have forged fine friendships amongst many people. Their culture of hospitality is second to none and their adherence to their faith is admirable.
Do I believe that means they should be allowed to immigrate to my country? Not at all, they are totally incompatible with any western society. My observation is that without strong, and sometimes extremely ruthless leadership (by their own kind), the people revert to a chaos which they will only settle by violence which as always begets more violence.
There is no great brotherhood of man, never has and never will be, so get with reality and do something to protect our society.
No, I dont agree with the US in Iraq for one simple reason. Democracy will not work in their tribal societies, maybe in five hundred years but not now.
If you have questions, go ask a Middle Eastern family why did they come here? What were they hoping to escape? And ask, why they have in their midst people who want to recreate that society here.
There are good people in all races, no problem with that. But when that minority has people amongst it who want to kill me, in my own country!, then sorry, you have to lump them altogether. It is simple self preservation of our magnificent way of life.

Hurrah for John Stone. A man of great wisdom who should be listened to. All the name calling he receives on "On Line Opinion" indicates that he is right. More power to his pen!

I agree in principle with J. Stone but not his proposed impractical solution. Most migrants are in our countries (the west) mostly because of persecution and lack of freedom in their mother land. A bit of compassion goes a long way.

Having said that however, the problem of islamic integration is a complex one. What we have here is supreme incompatibility that is inherent (even genetic).

Those poor souls have no say no rights no choice within the confines of their religious system. If you are born to a muslim father you are automatically a muslim. (So what? you would say). Well unlike any other religion, islam is a politico-social system (Umma) that encompasses the whole globe; it does not recognise state boundaries and laws. Anything not Islamic - they are told - is therefore unacceptable and must be destroyed or Reverted to islam.

So it is not a simple matter of separating the sheep from the goats but the sheep from the wolves.

From Irfan's truly sublime "Bridging the cultural gap in a swimsuit." to the abysmally ridiculous diatribe from the ever predictable John Stone.

Sneekie & Almanac - grateful for the perspective on old Queen Isabella.

Perhaps what Stone is suggesting is that the new Terrorism laws aren't draconian enough and we should introduce the "Australian Inquisition". Sort of dovetails nicely with the "Pacific Solution" doesn't it?

Suspects will be tested on their ability to sing the national anthem while frying pork sausages on the BBQ, standing on one leg with their hands tied behind their back. Easey peasey.

Wonder why I have trouble taking John Stone seriously?

Must go back and reread Irfan's article - need sanity fix.

Apart from Johns last line, which I would guess is intended as a 'thought provoker' though I feel in very poor taste, by and large his observations are quite accurate. Mainly because they are 'observations' of real contemporary events.

He did make a key statement "Muslims, especially in large numbers"....
Indeed that is the very key to understanding the unrest in France and in most places. The greater that segment of the population, the larger the number of the 'extreme' end of the spectrum. This is undeniable. Within that 'extreme' end, the likelyhood of people prepared to take action also increases in parallel to perceived 'marginalization'.

We don't need to worry about Indonesia being 'offended' by closing the doors to 'Muslims' wishing to migrate here, just go and try as an Australian to migrate to Indonesia. They would understand our position, especially post Bali 1 and 2 + threats against our prime minister etc.

Almanac, I'm interested in whether you have noted in your 'work with muslims' (could you elaborate please ?) some examples of social security fraud as stated by Carniflex ? (do a user search on Carniflex and see his comments)

What do you make of Tim Priests paper on the "Muslim males of Telopea Street" ?
http://www.australian-news.com.au/The%20rise%20of%20Middle%20Eastern%20crime%20in%20Australia.pdf

How about this for an exercise. Do a search on 'Lebanese Christian crime in Sydney" and see how many hits you get. Surprisingly, the returns will be in fact about 'Muslim' males. But, if you can find media reports of Leb Christians pack raping Anglo/Aussie girls, by all means let me know.

So, in the absence of research to the contrary, it might be anecdotally justified to at least raise the question of whether the religious aspect of the Lebanese culture is a determining factor on their attitudes to Anglo women. When one looks closely at the racial background of the gang rapists, some of them were Pakistani Muslims.
So, "Lebanese" Muslims and "Pakistani" Muslims.... makes you think.

Try to respond on the points raised, without personal abuse.

I agree with both Gbkk and coach.

I don't see how Islam can integrate with Australia's western society, especially when Saudi Arabia keeps pouring money into the promotion of fundamentalist Islam. Fundamentalist Islam is easy to spot: the men wear long beards and the women wear hijabs or burqas. Moderate muslims adopt more western style dress.
The best way to promote and strengthen fundamentalist Islam in Australia is through immigration.

In response to BOAZ_David, who asks "I'm interested in whether you have noted in your 'work with muslims' (could you elaborate please ?) some examples of social security fraud ...?". I was for 12 years Honorary Director of Refugee Resettlement for the Australian-Afghan Association, and in that capacity assisted the passage and settlement in Australia of several hundred Afghan refugee women and children at risk. On the whole, they were fleeing Soviet Marxist-Leninists and (later) the Taliban; on the whole, Australians I discussed my work with at that time opposed my work. Anti-Muslim racism, you see, is not so new and is very deep-seated in Australia -- just read Henry Lawson-era poets and authors. Racism is usually so ingrained from birth that, like colour-blindness, often the sufferers lack awareness of it. This is apparent from some of the posts on this page.
No, the only social security fraud I've seen has been by non-Muslims.

In response to Leigh, who writes: "All the name calling [John Stone] receives on 'On Line Opinion' indicates that he is right": I'm trying to meet your logic halfway, but concede defeat.

Forget religion, race etc etc.

Just dont let in refugees or those fleeing anywhere, unstable situations end up deeply effecting those involved, and things such as conflict etc is the norm. It is a strain on our economy and on our social services. What i am saying here is harsh, but somewhere along the line resolving this issue will involve a level of harshness. I just do not think that we can discriminate on religous grounds, not in this day and age, not if we dont want to be isolated.

We are a backwater in the world with a massive skill shortage, lets up the anti on skilled workers, be more practical and slighly more sympathetic on the means testing, and pump through people based on skills, definately not religion. i bet we would achieve a similarly effective result, as skilled imigrants generally have differing backgrounds and values.

I know this is discriminating somewhat, but there are over 100 countries out there, many muslim, and they have an extensive choice away from this country. If they want to come here, great, let them develop elsewhere and come here when skilled, lets become the university of the world with our immigration policies.

John would have marched proudly in his black shirt and his long dagger and found recruits from these pages. John has got one thing right some people will never integrate into the Modern Western world and he is one of them. Funny he uses the expelling of the Moors (and Jews) from what was to become Spain, as this act stuffed out the one of the candles that kept European civilization going through the dark ages. The pair that did it nearly plunge it into another one. The Arabs gave the world a mathematical concept without which the modern world would not exist and it describes Mr. Stone aptly a “zero”.

<<"The Arabs worked with the sexagesimal system inherited from the Babylonians via the Greeks, but often converted numbers to the decimal system for complex calculations since it was easier. They called base-60 numbers the arithmetic of the astronomers. They also incorporated elements of the Indian system Ð including adding zero to the number system.">>
http://www.hps.cam.ac.uk/starry/mathematics.html

Gee Kenny.... I find a lot of 'borrowed' stuff there, but I'm sure you will give us chapter and verse about how original the Arabs were, and how dimwitted all the 'rest' were, learning nothing from the greeks etc.......should we put you on the 'hit list' for the next inquistion ? :)

Almanac,
regrding social security fraud, I recommend strongly that you communicate if possible with Carniflex, as his allegations are MOST serious. If you did not encounter them, it may be due to the particular ethnicity of those you were working with, being Afghan, as opposed to Lebanese Muslims. I cannot comment on the veracity of Carniflex claims, but he seems to have solid evidence in his work as a park ranger and security guard.

On the issue of Afghans, I hope that ALL cultures which come to Australia are given 'cultural manners' classes. For example, you don't goto a public place, and turn on LOUD music of your own language and then all wander off as if you are the only race there, leaving all the Australians to endure the blaring sound of culturally offensive music, as happened to me once at Silvan Reservior.

Once migrants learn basic good manners and Australian cultural norms, and more important to respect them, there will be much less 'disliking of and stereotyping of the other' going on.

Banjo Patterson and Henry Lawson were products of their time, but I don't recall 'technical racism' in their writings ? Tell more pls.

I'm surprised to see an article about Islam and threats to European civilisation appearing on this blog.

Where have I heard it all before.

Quotes by "God botherers" about the Koran and bad, bad Islam to follow and follow and follow.

Wrong DB as is your norm the fact that the Moors in the west and Byzantium empire in the east’s were the main forces keeping civilization going in Europe is well documented despite what a few (Christian fundaments) revisionist make whish to believe of the dark ages.
The fact that the Arabs gave the world the concept of zero is also well documented.
Now I know you don’t like the idea of reality based argument it is in fact one of the tools that has advanced the western world. Main stream Christianity has been dragged kicking and scratching with it. It was a move to a materialistic view of the world that quickened Europes pace compared to the East more spiritual based one.
There is no latant superiority in Europeans no matter what you, John or Hitler may believe. Again the evidence to support this view is well documented go have a read DB there is more to the world then you hate filled little book. the Western world is not a monoculture why shouls Australia been one. As for traditional Aussie values well they change with the times as I do DB.

*laughing* Culturally offensive music? Because none of the stuff that comes out of western culture is offensive at all! Surely you've got to find a better example than loud music to dislike a group of people!

John Stone, like most ignorant racists, has chosen to highlight a religion as the main contributing factor to the riots in France. He has completely ignored the fact that (most) of the people rioting in France were unemployed, poor, African immigrants. The fact that they were (mostly) Muslim is merely coincidental to their origin. Only a fool would imply it as a reason for their violence.

Similarly, Opinioners who have intimated a problem with Muslims integrating with western society as an insurmountable problem have resolved only to acknowledge a minority of the religion. One can’t help but wonder why, if it were true that there are SO many Muslim fundamentalists, the western world as we know it has not been overrun already. There are, after all, several billion Muslims, many of whom have already successfully integrated into our society.

Jude,
I find it very difficult to follow your argument but could you at least get your facts right (after all you do consider evolution as factual don't you?)

Example: 1)not all muslims ...but north African immigrants??

2)several billions of muslims? c'mon...!

3)"many of whom have already successfully integrated into our society"

how many? are they true muslims?

"One can’t help but wonder why, if it were true that there are SO many Muslim fundamentalists, the western world as we know it has not been overrun already."

Well I wouldn't hold my breath for too long dude

Is there a single Islamic state or country on the earth that is peaceful, law abiding,not ruled by a despotic family or religious leader?

Put aside all your ideals and aspirations about how mandkind should behave.

There is but one simple question.Do we want this country to end up with France's chaos that will ultimately destroy it's culture and economy?

It is about our survival.Yea or nay.

John Stone is a highly accomplished, principled, respectable, and the wisest of Australians. No other Australian would have deserved the mantle of leadership on his shoulders than John Stone.

The vacuity and piffle of his "joker" critics, is shown by their inability to see even the witty joke of his last two sentences, least of all to understand his argument. Stone, is mentioning a series of events, which as a result of Britain's failure of multiculturalism, and France's equal failure of its "assimilation-integration" policies, and the high birthrates of its Muslim immigrants, that are now coming to haunt Europe with its destruction.

In the Netherlands, thirty per cent of children under the age of thirteen are Muslim. No wonder, that the great Arab scholar, Bernard Lewis, argues that Europe by the end of the century will be Muslim.

It's this awareness, about the dangers to Australia emanating from a large number of non-integrated Muslims, that Stone tries to instil with his article among Australians.

The savvy ones will his "takers", the obscurantists will be his "knockers".

KOTZABASIS

More on my blog: http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

You know that "The times, they are, a changin'"when journalists such as John Stone write such excellent articles pointing out the doom of multiculturalism. The most significant aspect of his article is that only ten years ago it would have been considered such heresy that it is unlikely that it would even have been published in any newspaper.

It is clear that more and more journalists are realising that the promises of multiculturalism as just as empty as the promises of socialism before it, and there appears to be a shift to the pragmatic right in the political aspect of today's journalists.

Journalists know that their reputations for political analysis hinge upon their getting their predictions about social policy and social consequences correct. So they can no longer continue finding excuses for a failed ideology nor can they continue to be enchanted by the utopian visions of dreamy idealists.

What has resulted is an increasing number of well written and hard hitting critiques of multiculturalism by respected and influential journalists. These articles reflect rising public unease with this failed concept and also influence those well meaning people who consider themselves humanitarian, but who are concerned about the direction in which Australian society appears to be heading.

Well done, a reality check and a pleasure to read some real Journalism instead of reaching for the bucket with that bed wetter stuff and the Guilt ride of the mindless.
The usual insults from the guilt ridden 5th column Cultural Marxist’s and P C brigade, (Enemy Occupation) as well as the Ethnic invasion’ers treading on the toes again. Branding everyone that does not capitulate to their capers as racist and bigoted; well, Pthyyyyyt to you. And enjoy the trip home.
Not quite an academic contribution, but :

mickjo

I have two elderly male friends.

Bob 1 was a Rat of Tobruk in WWII ( I knew him from the age of 5 years). When I was an older adult (mid 20s) he shared lots of his war memories with me. I was privileged to hear his accounts of Middle Eastern autrocities and Middle Eastern "customs". He was very clear in his message to me. "Kay, if the Middle East (countries) migrates to Australia, this country is doomed". Bob 1 died.

My other friend, Bob2 was also a WWII vet. He said the same thing.

Everything that they both predicted has happened.

Kay

All
Can't you see the hypocrisy in your own post? Complaining about "the usual insults" and "branding everyone that does not capitulate" sits rather strangely in the middle of this paragraph that engages with none of the arguments of your opponents and comprises nothing but "insults" and "branding".

Stone's arguments could, and have, been equally (mis)used against German Jews, Australian Irish, and every other minority that finds itself the target of bigots. They have been the language and rationalisations of racists from time immemorial. To this extent, and this extent only, his suggestion of an Isabella Society is apt. She really was deserving of insults, as earlier posters have said. So let me let fly with a few. This vicious, racist, anti-intellectual, reactionary, vain, self-indulgent, venal, manipulative, hypocritical and ultimately self-defeating woman and the regime and inquisition she inspired is a fitting role model for the person John Stone has become.

"Muslims, especially in large numbers" is the key. There is a "point of no return" beyond which Muslims will cease being an exotic minority and will try to impose Islam / Sharia on the rest of us. That means we (non-Muslims) get to be dhimmi - and that is not pleasant. They are angry and unhappy and want us to be too.

The lessons of the mass immigrations of the past centuries do not apply to the current situation. Before we didn’t modern technology (Internet, satellite TV, jet planes) and foolish politics (multiculturalism, political correctness) and very few of the immigrants were Muslims.

This new situation is a recipe for disaster – and its coming! Muslims cannot accept non-Muslims and other religions as equals and still be good Muslims. Muslims cannot assimilate and be Muslims. Read their writings!

Many Western leaders will continue to pretend there is no problem, but sooner or later the people will wake up. They will have to ask themselves if they want to be slaves to Islam or be free. Not a hard choice. This means riots, conflicts and maybe even war.

Yes, the root cause of this is Islam and Muslims, but Western leaders share the blame for being so foolish. For over two decades there have been lone voices warning about what will happen if Muslims continue to come to the West. Well, they are here, and they have brought their hate and anger with them.

Bad times are coming.

One thing we can do is speak out! Tell Muslims what you think of their religion and their great and noble (yeah right) prophet. Be honest, be open, be frank. Read to them from their Quran and Hadiths. Tell them the things they don’t want to hear. The truth may hurt their feelings, but it is important that they know that you know about Islam. And smile!

Kactuzkid

I suppose in a civil society, and let’s take a simple example of Hypocrisy of Multiculturalism: If I travel overseas to UK, I try as best to meld in and become less noticeable and enjoy the interaction of the local community, with a strong Australian assent and apply a bit of humor.
If I travel to Germany or anywhere for that matter, I do the same, when you are graced with a privilege of participating in someone else’s Home land activities you engage in a manor that is flattering and not become indifferent to a point it is Insulting to the host, be assured you will never get invited back otherwise. So what do you say when an Ethnic in Australia insults you when you do not wear his religion or his Dubious cultural norms and then brand you as a racist bigot because he/she can. Some are that arrogant: and who made this insult to Australian's possible? That is Racism and Bigotry against Australian's. Yes it is that simple and it is not that complicated, and there is a great many of us who have had enough. The height of such anger is dependant on the Government to defend our community and re institute the rule of law and remove the Occupiers out of our country: they were not invited by us and now they insult us. Can most figure out what is next? Not just unique to Australia ether.

Almanac, in the seven years I worked for the park I saw five chinese with pension cards even though there were plenty of them visiting the park. Never saw any Jews with pension cards.

Muslims, I lost count after the first day. New employees were horrified by what they saw.

I've arrived at pay and display parks to check tickets. Mostly muslim visitors, a few Asians and a few Europeans. Not one muslim has a ticket, the others do. At the clearly marked ticket machine Asians and Euros, 90-95% pay. Muslim drivers slow down look and drive off. Followed said drivers, 'what machine?' Show photo of device they drove by two minutes ago. 'I've been here hours the machine wasn't open'. Your brakes are still warm

Same old lies and deceptions day in day out all through spring and summer except for ramadan when they stayed home.

Most muslim vehicles have a tiny koran hanging off the rear view mirror. These were the vehicles most often found blocking access gates and clearways for emergency vehicles and of course no tickets.

Rarely saw a vehicle with Christian markings without a ticket or dangerously parked. (I'm not Christian)

Muslims I've worked with explained in detail how they ripped off the system and offered to sell me the documents to do it myself.

I've talked with centrelink, and they confirmed what my muslim co workers said.

I've worked with both Christian and Muslim Lebanese the difference between the two is astonishing. Same ethnic group different ideaology.

The shopping centre/office complex I worked at as a security guard banned Lebanese muslims from working there, much to the relief of the Anglo, Asian, Greek, Italian and Jewish business holders there.

Kalweb, my grandad fought Rommel, said the same thing.

Con,

Well said. It's a great pity that John Stone didn't remain in the public arena for longer. People misjudged him when he was a Senator, and they misjudge him now - at their peril.

So pathetic are some of his detractors that they don't recognise his humour. That's probably the saddest thing.

A thousand years ago, two muslims were sitting on their camels watching with contempt as the infidels played football in the wadi below, one says to the other.
"We need a term to express our tolerence of those infidels playing football down there"
"I know!" say the other "0"

Necessity, is indeed the mother of invention!

Thank you Kalweb for your reply. I expected that all the pro Islamics would swamp this board with numbers of Muslim countries that were not under the thumbs of despots or the religious. Guess there simply aren't any . Which shows what a great religion it must be. No free countries?
Interesting.

To Kactuz: I have recast your earlier post, adding to the word 'Muslims' other horrible minority groups that the Isabella Society really ought to deal with:

"Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas and spastics, especially in large numbers" is the key. There is a "point of no return" beyond which Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics will cease being an exotic minority and will try to impose Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas and spastics on the rest of us.

The lessons of the mass immigrations of the past centuries do not apply to the current situation. Before we didn’t modern technology (Internet, satellite TV, jet planes) and foolish politics (multiculturalism, political correctness) and very few of the immigrants were Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics.

This new situation is a recipe for disaster – and its coming! Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics cannot accept non-Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics and other religions as equals and still be good Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics. Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics cannot assimilate and be Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics. Read their writings! ...

One thing we can do is speak out! Tell Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics what you think of their religion and their great and noble (yeah right) prophet. Be honest, be open, be frank. Read to them from their Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics books. Tell them the things they don’t want to hear. The truth may hurt their feelings, but it is important that they know that you know about Jews, Muslims, niggers, boongs, sheilas, midgets, poofters and spastics. And sieg heil

In keeping with the sound message of most in this string I present some thoughts of that profound man of God, K. B. Napier on “The Muslim Threat” http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/outlines/outline_00046_the_muslim_threat_web.htm

“Whilst a small but watchful band maintains a proper vigilance toward Rome, it appears that a more determined enemy has been ignored...Islam. The reason for this may be that Rome presents a false Christianity, but Islam presents a false religion. There is a sense in which we may 'ignore' Islam because, unlike Roman Catholicism, it does not pretend to be a follower of Jesus Christ. Quite the opposite! Thus Islam seems to be outside the 'brief' of many Believers today.”

“Let the warning bells be sounded, however! We need the Rome-watchers to sound the alarm...but we also need Islam-watchers, to waken the city of God and to warn them against a threat of immense proportion. Islam is not a threat to the Truth of God because it does not claim to be based on the Christian Bible. Yet, it is a threat to Christians themselves...to their physical freedom, to their livelihood, to their stated beliefs, to their public worship, to their very lives! A threat different to Catholicism as it now stands, but a very real one. Catholicism is still a threat to all these things - let us not be quietened to that fact.”

“…There is very little difference between Roman Catholic intentions for Christians and Muslim intentions - both hate true belief in an Almighty God, with equal contempt. Both are willing to remain quiet amongst Christians when they are not in the majority. And both are simply waiting for the right time to strike. When Roman Catholicism gains the ascendancy in a country, it begins a period of economic and political rot. The same happens where Islam takes over....but let us not think that this is necessarily the wish of the nationals who live there. They will suffer along with Christians - perhaps not so severely, but they will suffer nevertheless, through starvation, lack of opportunities, and bad economic conditions….”

MUSLIMS ARE REAL, REAL BAD - Part 2. Napier continues:

"Let it be said again - it is the basic teaching of the Koran to kill all who will not bow to Allah and his followers, the Muslims. It is the avowed intention of strict Muslim leaders to force Islam on everybody in the world. African countries are falling like nine-pins to this pressure. Can you imagine what it would be like if all of Africa came under the iron fist of supreme Islamic rulers? If you think Hussein or Gadafi are bad - what do you think the giant Africa would be like under an unified strictly-Islamic rulership, whose pattern is Iran?"

Many try to say that Iran-type Islam is an extreme form and that Muslims living in the West will not tolerate its ravings. After all, Muslims in the West have a much easier life and only want to live in harmony with Christians and others. NOT SO! As with Catholicism, Islam only tolerates what it must, when it must. Given the chance it will flex its muscles, as it has in Iran, Iraq and various African states. This is because IT MUST DO SO to remain true to its founder and to the Koran."

Yea Brothers and one Sister of this string, "K B (Barry) Napier was Chairman of the Christian Research Institute and General Editor of its various publications. Because of the international scope of BTM work, the title 'Chairman' has been replaced by 'Founder'. The Founder has oversight of all Bible Theology Ministries (BTM) ministries and is experienced in all aspects of the work. "

"Academically, Barry holds a number of professional certificates and higher diplomas, plus two basic degrees and a Master's degree. In 2003 Barry was awarded a PhD in Theology from Christian Bible College, USA for his dissertation on "Towards a Theology of Disfellowship", which will be published shortly."

We are not alone in our struggle against Islam. One day there will be a New Germany!

The left leaning academics want to continue muslim immigration solely to maintain their high principled stance of all people being compatible and equal in every respect.Educated muslims as individuals are likeable and seemingly trustworthy,however many of their terrorists are highly educated.

Once you have been indocrinated by religion from a very young age,it is almost impossible to free yourself from it's clutches even with the all the facts and logic in the world.This is what makes this type of religion so dangerous.It is literally a head banging religious fever.We laugh at the stories of 50 virgins as a reward waiting in heaven but many actually believe it.Only the power brokers at the top have some doubts,but their game is all about power.

Individually muslims are likeable and seemingly reasonable people,but collectively they behave as an entirely different organism.We know the intent is by a sizable number,is to convert the world to Islam even though most will deny this.Your are however to lie to the infidels to achieve your aim.

The left have no choice but to continue to scream racist as loud as they can, since to do otherwise, is to admit defeat and realise the lies they have been peddling us all these years have been more about their own idealistic agenda's and self interest.

I do not understand where Germany comes into the equation; why not say China, Cambodia, or even Cuba. But I gather the link with Aryan race (Iran) to typify your argument to enrage Nazi connotations, simple and non effective use of basic human emotional Psychology and a premise based on pure Ignorance. Adorno’s et al theories are manipulative Crap and proven so on many occasions: King pin manipulative lefty.
That is a bit like Mandela and Arafat sympathizers condemning Israel or America and Anglo’s for both of their crimes, when you read the fact sheets, Arafat and Mandela are both just as : murderous- terrorists as each other, worthy of a peace prize of course by pathological social justice advocates.
The adage is if you have a psychopath: educate him, what do you have?
Answer is: an educated psychopath with a more extensive vocabulary. The traits of the intellectual disorder remain. Ideological detoxification and back to basics. Try reading about Mazdakism, the answers are there.
Islam is of that strand with a bit of Arab vengeance; everyone else is of no consequence and are expendable(That is everyone else regardless) Such is the nature of the Tribal noble Savages. Some people have a romantic interlude with their own belligerence and the consequences are for themselves to deal with.

To Mr Almanac.

Your reasoning is flawed, because some of the groups that you mentioned are not culturally exclusive and are not considered to be threatening to western society.

So to begin with, let’s chuck out midgets and spastics. After all, midgets and spastics are not noted for cultural differences, nor for criminal behaviour or terrorism. They may be noted for welfare dependency, but that is culturally acceptable due to their circumstances. Then chuck out sheilas. Sheilas are more than one half of every society, and though they may have some cultural differences with their menfolk, they are still part of the community and hardly a threat to it’s continued existence.

We could also exclude boongs because they can reasonably be considered the same as niggers.

That leaves us with Jews, Muslims and Niggers.

The degree to which people from these groups will find acceptance in Western society is a measure of how culturally different they are from “us” and the degree to which they maintain ethnic or religious exclusivity. It is also a measure of both their behaviour, their population proportion, whether or not that proportion is growing, and the perception of threat that they may pose to the host society. Tolerance is also a measure of prosperity and cultural conditioning.

In today’s wealthy west, “Western” Jews are the most accepted because their group behaviour is generally very good, their cultural values similar to our own, and they do not try to maintain ethnic exclusivity by outward displays of religious apparel. “Orthodox” Jews are less acceptable, their behaviour is also generally good, but their cultural practices can be somewhat bizarre. Couple this to their insistence upon outward displays of religious exclusivity and it quite naturally makes the rest of society look upon them as outsiders.

Niggers and Muslims are both generally despised. This is hardly surprising given their generally unacceptable group behaviour, their almost total inability to integrate, their high levels of welfare dependency, and their growing population proportions.

John Stone must be thinking, "With friends like these, who needs enemies?", aggrieved by the rabid rabble he has roused -- including unabashed racists as well as the abashed. The general assumption that forms the foundation of Mr Stone's supporters in this forum seems to be that Muslims are terrorists and should be excluded from Australia. Of course, this is like saying we should exclude Catholics because of the IRA, which has enacted far more terrorist acts in Western societies than any Muslims ever did. Perhaps we should exclude white Australians, as the only terrorist acts that have been executed in Australia (such as the bombings and burnings of shearing sheds and shipping in the 1890s, notably Dagworth Station, the SS Aramac and the Paddle Steamer Rodney, and many more) were the work of white Australians. Of course, Larry Petrie who bombed the Aramac was a Scottish American, so perhaps we should exclude Scots and Americans as well. We may add to that list the Sydney Hilton bombing -- perhaps we should thus exclude Australian police as well. Terrorism in Australia has been exclusively a "white Christian" affair. Perhaps the Muslims should expel the "skippies".
It's palpable nonsense, but I certainly won't waste any more breath here among so much hate-filled lack of knowledge. Suffice to say that this IS about racism, and in my view the reason racists remain entrenched in their sick beliefs is that their very racism prevents them from entering the homes of those they despise (or, horror of horrors! invite them into their own homes), to sit and talk with them, take meals with them, and get to know them. I have done so, and my life has been enriched. I commend it to those who are stuck in their juvenilia and so certain of their pathetic, ill-informed and heartless stereotypes. After reading most of the posts here I need a long bath. Finis.

Ref: My article on the Aramac: http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/book/jul27.html
On the Hilton: http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/hilton.html
Myths of the War on Terrorism and Iraq: http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/myths.html

Almanac, you seem to have mastered the art of Politicization of terminology, so ether you are clueless in your perceptions or you are a staunch pathological socialist, (Trotsky type) ether connotation tells us that you have not given any thought or practical solution to the existing conundrum. Stealing or oppressing others real Intellectual capacity and individual property can only end in disaster and history tell’s you it has. Please think on that, luckily we do not depend on you for answers, you seem to be an amplified cause to the problem. Please reconsider your position and apply objective facts, not subliminal subjective mantra. A lot more is at stake than someones Ego.

The funniest thing is that the most hate filled post on this thread is by Almanac.

An exclusive hatred towards anything white reveals the masochistic personalities of our often deranged intellectuals. Multiculturalism is the problem not the solution.

Once again the intellectual depth of debate becomes shallow and meaningless. But then again, it is Australia.

Ranier,
you are quite right, and its main example is yourself.

Not even a HINT of challenging any actual position, just the same old same old 'abuse'. "you are intellectual midgets" kind of thing.

I suppose you are an intellectual giant ? if so, then please demonstrate this by actually tackling issues and things stated.

Example

Redneck responded to Almanacs 'garbled' posting, with a careful and systematic analysis. If you think he is incorrect, why not actually seek to point that out with a response involving some research or facts ?

I would take issue with his last line "Niggers and Muslims" generally being despised. I don't think he can back this up. I certainly don't 'despise' them.
If by 'niggers' he means (as Almanac seems to suggest) he means Indigenous people of Australia, then you of all people should have something to say about that, being (partly ?) indigenous yourself.

The whole point which should be emerging from all this, is that ANY religious or racial group can be a danger to a prevailing group's culture if allowed in large numbers. Look at what happened to your mob since the 'white devils' came along !

This is so self evident that I'm surprised it is even disputed by anyone. Even the 'left' should know that they would 'impose' their views on everyone else if they had the chance.

[Deleted for defamation].

When someone harps on the how the big, bad West did this and that,I always wonder why they forget to include the Burning of Witches .
Then old Adolf is usually regurgitated as a 'living ' example of how really awful the BBW is.
When we bigots and racists, rednecks and green gnome haters are talking ,we are talking about life since 9/11, Bali 1&2 ,plus the beheadings and general slaughter that have been accomplished by the Islamics.
Not to mention the gang rapes and the misbehaviour by the followers of that religion. That is not ancient history, that is now!
We have good reason to resent the immigration of such people into our once peaceful country. And resent it we do.

Again there is that reluctance to mention Western colonialism and imperialism, as the impetus still causing the problem with non-white immigration into the West today.

Though terms like "the sins of the fathers" are regarded just as historical 'pap' or even literary 'trite' these days the historical facts are still there.

European colonialism and economic imperialism has still so much to be ashamed of. Please turn your history books to
both the political records of Harold Wilson of Britain and Charles de Gaulle of France. Both Wilson and de Gaulle offered the former colonial subjects who wanted to become British or French subjects could do so without the need to pass immigration laws. Maybe the laws are still not valid, but also Pakistanis were also allowed to become British subjects at the time.

Also we must be reminded that at the time they were not required to adopt European-style culturism but only had to obey the political laws as they formerly did under colonialism.

No doubt the same is happening now, except that among them are those who deeply resent colonialism and economic imperialism, which again is happening now in Iraq with talk about freedom and democracy, when many are sure that it will only still be the old India-style Dyarky Democracy, these days not even needing hundreds of thousands of colonial troops, but us Western imperialists can run the show totally from home, and of course we've also got our bosom pals the Israelis standing by their nukes.

The West, despite Islamic terrorism, has still got most of the Muslim world by the short hairs, the old colonial tea and coffee corporate economy which robbed India and Sri-Lanka so much, has now become the oil economy making the Middle East so precious for our modern Western corporates, who sadly for so many Islamics, lovers of bin Laden or not, will surely lose to Western nuclear power and corporate interests. Where true justice comes into all this in the future, will take more than a mite of commonsensical brainwashing.

BRUSHY.... I need to take you to task about "Western Imperialism and Colonialism" being the impetus.

As Micki said.. "we are talking about now"

Brushy, you would be well advised to look more closely at Islam and its history.

What about "Muslim Colonialism" ? which came first ? Western or Islamic ? Ottomans or British Empire ?

This is not a chicken and egg thing,

Islamic colonialism of:

Syria
Israel
Egypt
Persia
Asia Minor (Turkey)
India
Bengal
Balkans
Austria
Hungary
Nigeria
Sudan
Iraq
Checoslovakia
China
Caucasus
Lybia
Tunisia
Moor-occo
Spain
Parts of France

alllll took place wayyyy before the various Western colonial enterprises.

But.. "its our fault" ? come on mate.

You have read enough history to know that to suggest so is 'one sided' to give it its very best spin.

Please cease blaming your own, and start blaming those who are driven by an ideology which SPECIFICALLY commands them to 'defend' in a military way, their (ill-gotten) 'Territory'.

I'm loathe to 'rip into' you as ur my elder, and I respect you as that, but boy I'm tempted :)

Your right about the UK and France etc offering citizenship to various groups. IT WAS A MISTAKE. as this link will show:

http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/ Please read the 'about/history' bit:
No one offers citizenship for THAT to occur.

From the site:

<<The Muslim Parliament during its early days under the leadership of Dr Kalim Siddiqui, whose brain-child the Parliament was, opted for a high-profile, confrontational approach in its championing of Islamic causes.>>

<<to empower Muslims ....to create a “non-territorial Islamic state” in Britain.>>

Did we all note that last phrase?

David you are right about Rainer,his speciality these days is the sideline one liner snipes of racism and his perception of the moronic masses.He refuses to cross swords with me or others for fear of discovering the truth about our commmon humanity.

Basically I see it this way,we have a scientifically and techologically advanced society that also has a progressively advanced Christian philosophy,why do we welcome a retograde philosophy that relegates half of our intelligence [ie. women]to slave status and non contributers to our economy.Is it any wonder that Muslim countries live in both social and economic poverty.To add insult to injury we have these leftist morons telling us that Anglo Saxions are the most evil and racist people ever to have drawn breath.

As colonial conquerers Anglo Saxions have been the the most benevolant masters of the past 500 years.

John Stone is right,let the Muslims evolve and make their mistakes in their own lands and leave us to their perceived damnation.I'm quite happy being an infidel.

Boaz,

Our learning group happens to know history and philosophy very thoroughly, Boaz, and believe you will find that both us and the Islamics, have a lot to answer for. Even as Charles Darwin said against those humans who believed that Darwin's survival of the fittest concept was
proof that only the strongest of our human species deserved to inherit the earth. Backed also by Hegelianism this also spurred on 19th century colonialism, as well as American big business, and in the end, of course, modern fascism and Hitler's Nazism.

Nothing new in history, you will say, were such concepts, but in disgust in his old age of those who would misread his findings like his former friend, Herbert Spencer, Darwin did write that humans unlike animals had the gift of a growing intellect to learn to know better, even intimating that by now us humans should be feeling better and doing better towards each other.

Indeed, one does not have to be a Christian to understand the philosophy of the "Sermon on the Mount" to do for others as you would do for yourself. Even Karl Marx is supposed to have said, if you profess to be a Christian please act like one. Or was it Charles Kingsley, himself a Christian Marxist?

Sounds like you haven't got much time for bleeding hearts, Boaz, similar to Donald Rumsfeld who would like them all pushed aside while the US got on with the tactics of shock and awe. Reminds one of a quote of the Roman writer Tacitus - "For us Romans, real peace only means the peace after a successful battle, when all is quiet after all the enemy has been put to the sword."

It is really about time we all grew up intellectually, Boaz, and this includes not only us, but leaders from both sides!

[Deleted for redundancy as post to which it refers has been adjusted.]

BOAZ_David:

[Deleted for redundancy as material to which it refers has been adjusted]
You have also written, "Redneck responded to Almanacs 'garbled' posting, with a careful and systematic analysis".

How on earth could anyone who says, "Niggers and Muslims are both generally despised" be capable of a careful and systematic analysis of anything at all?

----

I have seen rampant Islamophobia and racism on US blogs. Sad to see them here in abundance too. John Stone wrote, "I argued that the London bombings differed from all earlier, similar outrages ... the London bombings had been directed against their fellow citizens by British Muslims." They were, John. And previous horrific bombings in the UK were also carried out by UK citizens -- Catholic ones. Christians. [And by the way, John, the riots in France were about bad housing, discrimination and unemployment in ghettoes created by the French Government. Nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with young people not getting jobs because of the colour of their skin + their addresses. And you would presumably refer to any attempts to fix these social problems as "appeasement".]

What drives Islamophobia is ignorance. Only a tiny minority of Muslims are extremists, just as a tiny minority of Catholics are in Opus Dei, or indeed the IRA. I suggest we all learn a little more about our Muslim neighbours and their faith before we leap to stupid conclusions about hordes at our gates. If Muslims break the law, arrest them as you do any other citizen.

And dump the paranoia. There's plenty of blood and guts in the Old Testament, but it's not used to demonize whole swathes of the world's population -- despite DU, napalm, white phosphorus, and cluster bombs.

I am truly shocked, ISABELLA? as in Ferdinand & Isabella? Why don't we start an Adolph Eichmann Society instead?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition - yet in this day and age, we have people lionizing its creators and wishing for its return.

Don't tell me, how many people here say that Auschwitz was a communist / zionist plot, and never actually existed?

People as a scholar once wrote, 'those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it', and I re-iterate my suggestion that most of the anti-muslim propaganda spewing forth from the mass media and politicians is accepted due to an underlying current of anti-semitism (and please do not lecture me on the first recorded use of the word, I refer to the disease it describes, I care not for the word itself [oi veh]).

This country is on the path to a truly dreadful, frightening place, of the posters on this forum are representative of the community as a whole (aided & abetted by supposed moderate christians - then again so was the third reich).

G'day Almanac

"What drives Islamophobia is ignorance."

What drives my 'Islamophobia' is personal experience.

"Only a tiny minority of Muslims are extremists,"

Perhaps, but it seems that a hell of a lot are involved in fraud, theft and other crimes that must be paid for by the rest of the population.

"I suggest we all learn a little more about our Muslim neighbours and their faith before we leap to stupid conclusions about hordes at our gates."

I've had muslims as neighbours in 3 three different countries and worked with them in 4 over the past 25 years not exactly a leap.

"If Muslims break the law, arrest them as you do any other citizen."

Never arrested any but booked them by the dozen for blocking access gates and clearways for emergency vehicles, lighting fires on fire ban days littering, burnouts. Yeah I know, everyone does it, but not with their apparent enthusiasm

A paramedic attended an emergency at the park a couple of years back. Because the access gates were blocked he had to run an extra 80 metres to get to the victim and before that navigate his vehicle through the clogged clearways. All taking precious seconds, especially so when your heart's not beating.

After the corpse was removed he returned to his vehicle and instantly recognized who it was blocking the access gates.

The mossies, the f__ing mossies! Always the f__ing mossies! He said.

Another islamophobe Almanac?

These posts are getting progressivly uglier as the months go by; the relevance of many of the contributions is highly questionable as many posters simply fawn over each other and their capacity to place one word after another in something resembling an argument. Alternatively some adopt an frighteningly natural air of a patron congratualting their foe on an argument well put....but. 'Scuse me while I vomit.

That alone is often enuff to make one's stomach turn even before the vitriol starts to ooze of these pages (in fact it did... see above if u missed it).

I had to stop myself from thinking seriously about calling for some editorial intervention as the occassions of unbridled hatred rose from those clamoring for more murder, more intolerance more self interest all cloaked in a robe of psuedo intellectualism, new found patriotism and at times religious piety.

The muscular nationalism expressed herein is an interesting if not worrying development so my fleeting flirtation with censorship has been stiffled ;- write on I say - the good guys will win in the end.

Deep in thought; the sneekster retires to consider things more deeply for while

Hello, Sneekie, I too am becoming increasingly dismayed by the vitriol spewing forth from the usual culprits.

I doubt that John Stone has taken time to get to know his local Muslim community - if he had, perhaps he would've written a different article.

For those who are not frightened of being informed I present the following link to a lively discussion held at an Islamic college on Friday between the ABC, members of the general public and members of the Islamic community.

Check it out:

http://www.abc.net.au/melbourne/stories/s1515016.htm

Better to be informed than ignorant.

Take heart the rednecks are a dieing breed people like Stone, davo and all the hate filled other nuts on this thread. Your like a bunch of kids that still believe in easter bunny. You can still find people who think the world is flat, so it's no surprise that you can find people who think skin colour effects someone ability to think. People shout loudest when they got nothing to say.

Bye, bye Almanac. Another trendy lefty who couldn’t take it when debating against informed opponents, and another one to cut and run.

Davo, don’t be discouraged by insult filled emotionally worded rants by our opponents, it means that we are winning again.

To Oldbanger. My reference to “Niggers” was a consequence of prominent anti racist “Almanac” using the same terminology to parody his opponents. Why don’t you read back a bit to get up to speed before you jump to conclusions and make a fool of yourself?

To Bushbred. Would you like to re think your claim that “problems with non white immigration” is caused by Western Imperialism? To start with, no civilization or even strong tribe on this planet has ever refrained from Imperial expansion. The entire history of the world has been one of smaller groups being absorbed by ever larger groups. Civilisation usually followed the sword.

To Sneaky Peter. When you say that “the posts are becoming uglier”, do you really mean that you deplore the fact that Australians are shooting back so effectively against the Australia haters and the white haters such as yourself? Keep squealing, it is music to my ears.

NAPIER IS JUST THE BEGINNING

Almanac and sneekeepete

While this thread is one of the more extreme examples of the treatment of the "Muslim threat" by posters on this blog, I wouldn't be unduly downhearted at their attitudes.

Aaron is right in labelling anti-Muslimism as racist and even anti Semitic. Muslims are almost always non white, look "different", with a different religion and perhaps other beliefs from the Australian “norm”.

I think prejudice comes from several factors:

- perceived failures in one's own life
- direct and negative experience of another race
- ignorance of another race
- competition with other races ("white trash")
- racist feelings becoming "respectable" because opinion "leaders" eg. Stone, Hanson and Howard, let racist ideas off the leash.
- racism justified by official ideology eg, Nazism, organised religion etc.
- world events (if it happens in the English speaking world we take it personally), and
- local events (most recently plots by at least two groups of Muslims that were never allowed to come to fruition)

Its up to the individual to decide which (or mix) of these reasons "justifies" racism. Although I suggest that "perceived failures in one's own life" is the most common one.

I'm not writing this as academic waffle. I'm just putting down the following intention.

Every time a string starts to turn really racist, like this one, I will show people the road to Auschwitz http://home.swipnet.se/~w-49276/docs/auschwitz/fabric.htm . Show you where generalised and strongly held views about a race/religion will lead.

Bin Laden, if he's alive and even bothers to think of Australia, would love these strings. They contain a significant group of people, sometimes reasonably, sometimes rabidly writing off a large proportion of humanity. This is the type of Western versus Muslim conflict that bin Laden has dedicated his life to (well a lot of other people’s lives anyway).

So in order for people not to get comfortable in their racism I'll present the works of some of the more perverse, lurid, scatterbrained and scattergunned racists. Each writing contains an ounce of commonsense hiding a pound of mush.

Reading some of the post here really makes me wonder how some people dress themselves in the morning. It's like trying to talk to a religious fanatics. One of the posters used ww2 references I'll just point out that in North Africa we were fighting the Germans and Italians not Muslims. If your going to bring up war the why not WW1 and the mutual respect that the ANZACS and TURKS had for one another. Or maybe Laurence of Arabia is more your thing. You it is easy for some people to find faults in others that they can not see in themselves though they are plainly there. This is not about Muslims it is about anyone who doesn’t fit Stones world view. Stone has said the same thing he says about North Africa’s about Muslims, Asians, Aboriginals and if we do a search problem Jews and Europeans. A racist fool that what he is, yes people if you judge someone based on their race you are being racist that’s what the word means. Remember the only people stopping our peaceful coexistence is people like yourselves on both side of the fence. The is no harm in being willing to die for your convictions however there is great harm when one is willing to kill for them. Release your hate lest it consume you.

Do not mistake my musing for despair Redders - I call it thinking - give it a try.

Again the fact that you take delight in what you mistakenly assumed was my suffering is indeed one feature that aligns you with those you yourself hate; inate indifference to the suffering of others. there are those here who revel in human suffering - in much they way some terrorists do - you and they in that sense and many others are very much alike - it is that one dimensional thinking that paints them and I dare say yourself into corners - they hate , you hate.

And when I say ugly I mean just that - like the atrocities of the terrorist - the mind set of some as exposed some posts places them a small step away from violent reprisal - based on suspicion and erroneous judgements. Not hating our swarthy brothers does not mean I hate whites and as many of my wise, lengthy, witty, pithy, incisive, telling, illuminating, erudite and poorly splet postings give testimony I dont hate Australia or Australians I just dont think we are immune from acts of bastardry or stupidity.

And you would be smart to stop laying claim to effectiveness or victory; it just makes you look silly (er).

Sneekeepete -

Dear John,
I strongly resent the use of the word "assimilation" in reference to migrant and new australians. I used to seat with you at the cricket ground in Canberra trying my best to mark the score book. (I never played cricket in my life). My son Frank was a good cricketer and played against your sons. I educated my children to accept the Australian way of life, to respect the Australian laws but to be proud of their heritage and divulgate with proud what comes from my country of origin: Italy. You may be proud to have eggs and bacon for breakfast and ham at Xmas time to celebrate the festivities but you cannot expect migrants to conform to your way that are of Anglosaxon origin. You don't have that right.We are all migrants to this beautiful country. I agree that there is only one law but leave alone the more coming from other countries. Jews don't assimilate. Should we close the door to them also? Multiculturalism is not an industry as you call it. It is the most wonderful thing happening to this land. SBS is also a wonderful tool for INTEGRATION don't denigrated it.

I think it unworthy for people to adopt an attitude of ivory-towerism when dealing with this topic. It is only natural and refreshing for people to put passion into their opinions.

Thank you moderators for letting the debate run.

I was defamed in this forum and the moderator removed both the offending item by BOAZ_David and, astonishingly, also my written defence. I think this was done not for my defence, but for the defence of Online Opinion. I hope that in the interests of fair play, and one's right to refute a serious false imputation published on the Internet, this new post will not be removed. My refutation of the false allegations made against me are also posted at http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/hilton.html

It is obvious that in the future we will be in a depression, so the three musketeers and a few foot soldiers, keep your Chomsky publications handy, there will be a shortage of toilet paper; at least you have found a good use for it. Throw out your idols; he really is not the Messiah as you so wish. He is the Gate Keeper, paid by no other than The USA army, how about that for Hypocrisy. You could say Almanac, he created the diversion for the Imperial forces to penetrate and rule The world. UMM anything: Colonizing the world?
You can see the Aunty ABC inspired intellectuals at work again, and those that rant and rave the Racist word should donate $100.00 each rant, to the children’s hospital. A couple of Grand already recorded. At least make good your emotion by demonstrating good will, not just pretend you posses it. Not a good or honorable trait of the left I’m afraid

And Kenny, Your History lesson is incorrect about the Moors, and most definitely your assertion that Islam’s contribution was 0 is indeed a misnomer also. The fact was; and is: 0 was Indian until the Islamic invasion, they confiscated the Idea, Remember the Targemahull?, Yes they also claimed that to be Islamic, surprised are you. Post-modern application of History can reinvent anything you wish it to be, but the Facts are somewhat _ Different. I’m sure you will investigate the truth more in depth.

Australia's stuffed! We allow refuges and/or migrants who are polar opposites in terms of appearance, garb, values, epistemology, religion and whatever else in with open arms; give them whatever they want and why...because of soft and feeble-minded and unrealistic lefties.

My wife, who's a highly educated (Masters) and stunningly beautiful woman (originally from a central European country) who speaks 5 languages fluently cannot get a job (150-200 applications) here in Perth because she is either too over-qualified or the prospective employers are scared of her beauty...and we are called the lucky country...Her Masters is on the ‘wanted’ skilled migrant list, but can she find work, no!

Oh, and don’t bother going to a skilled migrant expo, unless of course you are skilled in the mining industry!

The sooner people listen to folks like Stone and others who have the guts to see the world for what it really is, the better...Stop allowing throngs of crooks and welfare wanting breeders in and help those ‘skilled’ migrants who come here to work and give back to the society and not sponge off it!

I don't care if I paint an ethnic group with the same brush, Arabs and Africans should not be allowed to come here, they are too different and they are all wrong for Australia…they are a breed apart…am I a racist? I don’t believe in that word as we are all human: there is only one race…however, am I a realist, one whom sees the world for what it really is? Hell yes!

Wake up you soft, soft people, as one of the other respondents said; humans will never, ever join hands and sing songs of peace and love…that line of thought is for feeble-minded and weak drug-taking morons: it is in our very nature to dislike and/or fear those who are different…humans have no divine omnipresent celestial being guiding them; CHRIST! If they did, don’t you think we would have found peace by now?

No more apathy, no more affirmative action, It's time for meritocracy and it’s time to say NO MORE and it’s time to FIGHT BACK!

Discrimination & Racism. (extract)

Hello all. My final take on the subject.
If we take a step toward deconstructing the topic, we find –
A great deal of passion. There are two positions of defence in the argument(s) surrounding racism (& discrimination of all kinds). Some wish to see it used & some wish to see it eradicated. To those who wish to see it used for their own defence or benefit, I ask why? ‘Categorizing’ people as a threat is a little like the ant & the house brick. Racism is inefficient.
It’s undeniable that we have ‘good’ & ‘bad’ in all Nations. To categorise an entire group of Australians as a problem to ones self or ones group in modern Australia is inappropriate & incorrect. And for this reason we have a thorough legal system, developed by the people, protecting the rights of the individual.
Nearly all western Governments now outlaw Racism completely. We have grown through slavery, racism & sexual discrimination- we’ve all tried it as nations & it doesn’t work!
Integration of Races does not necessarily mean the homogenisation of Races. We wish to retain our own heritage for valid reasons, but to not allow some physical & cultural space for those who are of different heritage is inappropriate at this point in human society. We are global. To try to enforce cultural barriers is to take the defensive. Why? We can have our cake & eat it too. All cultures have something to good to offer. We can grow through integration. It's much smarter.
The problems currently being experienced in France raise an interesting point. Integration needs appropriate communication. Ethnic groups need appropriate political representation & this need is often not met.
France has a zero discrimination policy, which also denies any categorization according to race. The ethnic communities of France have poor representation at all levels. The situation has come to crisis point & the French govt must do all it can to open dialogue with the affected. It needs to change policy.
Integration needs to be planned. It cannot be left to chance.

The psychological reasons for the existence of discrimination source from tribal heritage & the previously greater need (historically speaking) for self-preservation. We may accept these ‘tendencies’ as our destiny, or we may be conscious of them & be in control, as we need to be with other ‘primitive’ traits. Today, as a race, we almost universally accept that ‘control’ is the better approach.
Cheers to all (even Reddy!)

Swilkie, nearly all western ban racism, but in order to do so they must import ethnic minorities to keep up to date with the latest b grade civil rights fad (multiculturalism). Countries that were formerly (and historically) white are now delibrately multi-racialised to stay in line with obscure Marxist thinking.

However contrived, Racism is an anticipated reality that will keep our leftist rulers in a longlasting orgasm as they compete for moral righteousness over us 'unsophisticated' and 'uneducated' types.

onya davo!

The left actully has a lot to answer for.

Its spokespeople have defamed their own causes. This is a shame in ways as some of the original PC intentions were fairly decent, saving the planet, human rights n all that. I actually resent the PC for destroying the credibility of these serious issues.

The PC assumption-lie that every cultures standards-psychology will be accepted by the Western host is a cruel, deluded and selfish PC hoax for potential citizens and Australians. The slice of opinion here in this forum illustrates this point quiet well.

Idealism and reality don’t often go hand in hand, any fool realises this.

Swilkie
'The problems currently being experienced in France raise an interesting point. Integration needs appropriate communication. Ethnic groups need appropriate political representation & this need is often not met.'

I don't think the French situation would've happened if it they'd imported Chinese instead of Nth Africans.

We treated the Chinese like crap in this country and they still became a raging success.

We throw money at the others, they just get worse.

Kenny,

Rednecks are not dying out. People who come into contact with mid east aussie mossies, even hard lefties are turning against them. Moaris, Serbs, Croats, Chinese, Christian Arab, Indian, Vietnamese, Macedonian, Greek, Italian and others hate them.

Gianni,

Overall I dont care if people assmimilate. All I want is for people to behave, anyone can do what they want as long as no one else is endangered or has to pay for their way of life.

Scout,

I don't know where you live but I suggest moving to a place in Sydney where mid east aussie mossies live or visit in large numbers or work with them. Sure you'll see plenty of 'law abiding citizens' but after a short while you'll start to notice things.

Carnifex, I have lived in Coburg (high Muslim population) and have worked with a large number of Muslim people.

What is your point?

It's off subject but... All, it is you who is wrong the zero has two important functions in maths one as a place markers as in 87601 which the Indians invented a dot to represent. However the more imporant function of a zero is indicate the value zero as different from nothing or in computing terms Null which is what the Arabs did and that is well known.
AS for the topic at hand just like flat earthers or creationist some people will never be able to except reality. But every year their numbers fall.

All posters,

WE have seen on this forum a disturbing new development.

Somebody has seen fit to effectively denounce an opponent, suggesting without basis that they are in some way associated with purported terrorist organisations. In light of the new Anti-Terror legislation, this could have dramatic consequences, not least that the person maligned could in fact now be arrested and detained indefinately, in order to safeguard national security.

Now while I am in fact fairly confident that such action was in fact inadvertant (if so a full & frank apology is necessary - failure to do so tends to suggest that such action was deliberate), this is a disturbing development. Is it now to be accepted that it is valid for someone to denounce their political opponent to the authorities (with no evidence), in order to prevent them airing their diametrically opposed viewpoint? If so democracy in this country is in serious trouble.

Fall Guys in Rumsfeld’s Games

According to Simon Jenkins of Guardian Cosmopolitan News, Iraq is miring all who touch it. - One example - “phosphorus shake and bake shells used in the fall of Falluja. Worse than napalm the above criminal act falls under a ban by the 1993 Chemical Weapons Convention against populated cities.”

What US hypocrisy when one of the most cited reasons for toppling Hussein was his use of chemical weapons against his own people? Why is it that neither Britain nor Australia never complain about whatever happens in Afghanistan or Iraq? Satisfaction enough for Blair and Howard, when Mr Rumsfeld says that in war “stuff happens”.

Jenkins goes on to say the Rumsfeld strategy all along was to beat hell out of the opposition in places like Afghanistan and Iraq - “then do not stay.”

Jenkins believes that Rumsfeld’s strategy all along was never to get bogged down in nation-building. Leave it to others, like the UN, or puppet stooges like Ahmed Chalabi. And above all, avoid allies with moral scruples. As Condoleeza Rice told George Bush during his first election campaign: “We need the 82nd Airborne more than just escorting kids to kindergarten.” .

Looks like in Afghanistan, Rumsfeld’s plan is now near done, with Washington’s puppet Karrzai apparently filling the bill. Also democracy sort of fitting into place, warlords and drug-runners acting nice and friendly, especially for keeping out the Taliban - giving some credit to the Taliban for cleaning up the poppy-fields, but Karzai, however, now worried about the war-lords backing the peasants to grow more drugs than ever.

Part Two

Usetting things along with the US pullout rumours, according to Jenkins, is Tony Blair’s plan to let UK defence secretary John Reid land 4, 800 UK troops in Afghanistan, said to be mainly to clean out the opium fields. But how to keep the millions of peasant farmers happy trying to grow something as profitable as poppies, without turning them against Mr Karzai, is still unclear?

Finally we might ponder about Mr Howard’s offer of more Aussie troops for Afghanistan. Our PM might not know that they are also part of Tony Blair and John Reid’s project to try and mend the opium problem that Rumsfeld’s forces are leaving behind? Could finish up a bit like a dog’s breakfast..

One wonders sometimes whether acting like a 19th century elder statesman is the way for Howard to go, for it seems the White House might be just treating himself and Blair like a couple of stooges or after-thoughts. .

Behind it all, the rough seemingly unintellectual Rumsfeld should learn he has to be much more discerning concerning his use of American massive military strength. Not just to use it to scare hell out of both friend and foe. Historically, it has been simply a change from British gunboat diplomacy to US missile diplomacy. But Mr Rumsfeld could do well to learn not to bash and blow places to bits leaving terror and hatred behind so much, but learn to use his diplomacy commonsensibly, which these days means both respecting and backing a far stronger United Nations with a military group similar but much much bigger than the Atlantic Pact. But above all, there will have to be much more wisdom and understanding, which means sometimes sharing the blame between the two enemies, which was really the original Kantian doctrine of international Reapolitik originally thought up for our future global survival.

Let’s hope all good Christians pray for it!

Aaron,

I too expected to see a full and frank apology by now, and am astonished to see none forthcoming.
Has it not been requested by the moderator, one wonders?

This is posted on behalf of Boaz_David:

Dear Graham

could you post this in the 'Some will not Integrate' thread on my behalf please ? A few people are wondering why I have not responded to their calls for 'apology'

"To fellow posters and Almanac,
I concede that I overstepped the mark in my comment about 'connection' which would have created a false impression of the standing of Almanac in regards to the 2 organizations mentioned.
His 'connection' as such was nothing more than a journalistic interest, and in the case of the Ananda Marga, he gave activist support for Tim Anderson after he had left the organization.
I"ve not said anything on the forum earlier because I'm banned for a week in the sin bin.
I regret any wrong impression gained regarding Almanac and trust that it won't happen again and yes, "I'm sorry"."

Cheers
Boaz_David

BOAZ _David

Thanks for the apology. I knew that you would do it. Gosh mate, you do put your foot in your mouth on so many occasions. Even so, I never get the impression that you deliberately wish to cause harm to other people. You have been very kind to me and I appreciate that - even though I mostly do not share your views. Take care mate.

Almanac

I could be a spastic midget - your terms! That means that I have cerebral palsy (a condition of mostly high intelligence) and I am very short (but not short on neurones though).

I think that Graham Y should have banned you as well - for your downright disgusting slams at disabled people.

Your use of "outdated language" gives me a good sense of your outdated neurones. Your assertions about "midgets" and "spastics" is far more harmful than anything that BD claimed.

Get a grip OLO

The double standards are rife
Kay

Bye bye Swilkie. Another one to cut and run. What was that you were saying about nobody winning this debate, Sneaky Peter? You must be starting to feel lonely?

Ring up Natasha and get what's left of her Monster Raving Loony Party to help you out.

Kay,

We generally only moderate posts when it is pointed out to us that they offend as we don't have the resources to check everything that is written on the site as it is written.

If you send me the reference to Almanac's use of the word "spastic" I will check it out.

Graham

To BOAZ_David, I accept your retraction and apology and thank you for it.

To kalweb: Yes, of course those terms are awful. I think you missed the point I was making, that anti-Muslim stereotypes and generalisations are very like those we are all so familiar with, such as those which degrade disabled people, Jews, indigenous and black people and so on. We all know where it leads when people start calling Jews "Yid" and Muslims "mossies", etc -- we saw it under Isabella's Inquisition and under Hitler's gas chambers. That is why I am so intractably opposed to John Stone's way of thinking. Please try to read what I wrote in context. I advocate zero tolerance to racism and intolerance and was showing how some others do not -- suggesting where it will surely lead. Without wishing to seem critical of you, I do think that most people would have seen the ironic and parodic style in which I wrote, but if I caused you offence, of course I regret it and apologise.

Graham Y

Almanac has apologied. That's enough.

Thank you.

Regards
Kay

To the moderator,
I wish you would let BOAZ_David out of the "sin bin" without delay. As a non-member of Mr Stone's Isabella Society, I don't care for the exclusion of people on account of their creed -- only malignant words and actions. And my former opponent, like all but a miniscule minority of Muslims, obviously doesn't fit the bill.

And sanity prevails.

I do not agree completely with either protagonist, however as Boaz accepts some of his suggestions were beyond the pale. However I feel that it is somewhat unnecessary to maintain his exile from this community, to err is human - to forgive divine.

I am certain (for once) that BD would agree with me on this point?

LET IM BACK ;)

Stereotyping, generalising and racist names are just awful, are they Almanac?

OK, lets examine those premises. Think “duck” and what comes to mind? A bird with a bill and webbed feet? You just stereotyped. Think “bird”. What is a bird? It can be anything from a pigeon, to an ostrich, to a penguin. But when you think “bird” you might think of something resembling a pigeon or a parrot. You just stereotyped again. Your stereotype of a duck or a bird may not be entirely accurate, but it does need to be. It is accurate enough to allow you to think.

Get it? People stereotype in order to think. Stereotyping is critical to thinking. Regardless of whether your imagined concept is of a boat, or a dog, or an Arab. Saying “don’t stereotype” is exactly the same as saying “don’t think.”

Now, generalising. If I were to say that Asian people valued education and were very hard workers, you would praise me for being so tolerant. But if I were to say that Lebanese tend to react violently in even trivial confrontations, you would say that I was a racist. But they are both generalisations. In other words, your attitude is a contradiction. You say it is OK to generalise positively, but by some application of doublethink, you regard negative generalisations as an evil transgression. Your position is illogical.

Now racist tags. Need I point out that while you claim that racist tags are awful, everybody does it. Even the “Westernised” Jews and “Orthodox’ Jews don’t think much of each other and call each other “Goyem’ and “Frankum”. Calling groups of people that you hold in contempt by nasty names is a cultural universal. Calling rednecks “bigots” is just as racist as calling Muslims “mossies”. Neither rednecks nor mossies are a “race”, but calling any despised group by a nasty name is exactly the same as calling negroes “niggers”. It all depends upon situational context. Calling negroes “niggers” is socially acceptable in KKK meetings, and calling rednecks “bigots” is socially acceptable in an Australian Democrats convention.

That does it. People were becoming agreeable.

I know that many posters in this string will find the following excerpts most distasteful:

We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism.

Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy.

Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice.

Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood.

Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.
Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.

And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

SOMETHING SHOCKING FOR MANY IN THIS STRING – Part 2

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."

This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with.

With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope.

With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood.

With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

And so let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.

Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.

Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of
Pennsylvania.

From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!”

Martin Luther King, Jr.: "I Have a Dream" delivered 28 August 1963, Washington D.C http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/Ihaveadream.htm

idealism and reality rarely meet.. as history shows, how about been idealistic when you dream and realsitic when you vote...

Thank you Plantaganet.

Many of us have dreams and many of them bear fruit - without dreams to guide us forward there will be no reality.

Denying humans their humanity diminishes our world, our prospects, our future.

Long live the dreamers!

In writing that he is thinking of forming a "Queen Isabella Society", John Stone is not only particularly offensive - he also displays a blindness to history. Mr Stone accuses Islam of providing non-Muslims with a choice between conversion or being "at best a second-class citizen or at worst a candidate for extinction". In fact, this attitude perfectly describes Isabella's attitude not only towards Muslims, but also towards Jews. Under Ferdinand and Isabella, the co-existence of religious communities (not always on equal terms but during the best times very nearly so) which underlay the intellectual energy of Moorish Spain came to a brutal end. Many of the Jews fleeing religious persecution in Spain found refuge in Muslim societies. The formation of a "Queen Isabella Society" would be a worrying development for Jews as well as Muslims. Mr Stone may be an economist rather than a historian, but one would expect him to have heard of the Spanish Inquisition.
It's worth noting that by 1492, the Moors had been in Spain for a good three centuries - a lot longer than the history of white settlement in this country.
Kay: you write of having learned about the dangers of "Middle Eastern immigration" from a Rat of Tobruk. In these days of multi-ethnic and multi-religious families, you will find that many Australian war veterans have grandchildren who are Muslim and/or of partly Middle Eastern descent. I am Muslim, I am of Pakistani and Scottish descent, and my grandfather was a Rat of Tobruk. We were very close, and he was always very strongly against racial and religious bigotry. He hated it when Bruce Ruxton and others tried to find moral justification for racism in their war service - he had no time for that. Nor did his mates. I do not condemn bigotry like John Stone's only because I am Muslim and brown skinned - I do so because of the values taught to me by my white Rat of Tobruk grandfather.

Thanks anarkali.

Your eloquent comments touched me.

I come from a "lily WASP" background.

My grandfather was wounded in Gallipoli fighting the (Muslim) Turks and then fought the Japanese in World War Two - he was no racist.

My father fought the Viet Cong (Vietnam War) and did not agree with the racists either.

It shows people's courage and nobility of spirit that even when they're being shot at by another race they don't blame the race for whats happened.

Plantagenet

I think John Stone should join with Leigh, kaktuz, Boaz_David and the other assorted wackos here and form the Adolf Hitler Society.

Irf, you are so naughty using such language, Hitler loved Moslems, and he employed them to crush the Jew’s. I think you realize who the group is now. And your perpetual ignorance in light of facts: a Question: What is the larges Selling Book in Turkey and Europe amongst Moslems? Sorry, not the quran or the bible, and no, not how to integrate. Last guess.
Ok I will tell you. Mien Kampf. So your impractical assertions and insults along with Ignorant racist remarks against your host country and abuse are un-warranted. This is the standard we are forced t o accept from the psychopathy of unacceptable proportions from the Left : Sorry, you are clearly out of your league. Ignorance is not a virtue, it is a standard adopted by the Left for convenience, The Nutters or how you put it, the real Waco’s. Enjoy the bliss while it lasts, Standards are making a come back and it will goodbye to you and that strand

Yes, All-. And I guess you will tell me next that Adolf Hitler was a Muslim from Lakemba.

John Stone has said what a great many people are thinking in Australia.
He may not have said it perfectly, but we get the gist of it.

The usual confusion exists in many responsive comments on 1. race and 2. religion.
C'mon people - get this sorted out in your woolly thinking.

1. It is quite out of order to be critical of a person' race.
2. But a religious culture, set of ideas, belief system must be open to scrutiny, testing, criticism and if necessary, rejection.

It is evident, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Islam is a system of ideas, and way of life, and basis for community, that will radically influence and alter the nation of Australia.
Many of us believe that we shall be affected - for the worse!

It would make good sense then to adjust our immigration policy - for the sake of peace.
But I can imagine this will be very difficult.

There are many (who consider themselves open minded) who blindly think any such moves would be ... racist.
No, it would be religion-ist.
And wise

Spot On Mr Stone.

Our politicians know although don't want to face the reality of our European brothers, our leftists despise anybody who speaks the truth in this regard [deleted for flaming].

The [person] who said "I work with Muslims, they are good" is such a typical response of someone that probably has never even been to a Bankstown, or an Auburn, and copped abuse for not being the same.

Islam is the greatest threat, not militarily, they are impotent as old men, demographically to the west. Unless Islam is reinterpreted, which is likely difficult (how to interpret Quran suras that state the half-worth of women, for examples or their attitude towards homosexuals) because the hardliners have the text to back them up.

ALL ISLAMIC IMMIGRATION MUST BE HALTED IMMEDIATELY. Racist? How so? They blow up visiting western tourists in Islamic nations, or a McDonalds because,as Stone says, Islam is exclusionist. If you're not Muslim, you are a DHIMMI. Type that into google, read widely, then you will post the same.

Anybody ever wonder why massive Christian communities in the mid-east are all but gone? Tolerant Islam?

As an atheist I think all religions are equally false. However I do believe that most of the world major religions have some valuable ideas to pass on to our children. I also respect peoples right to practice their religion as long as that practice is within the law. People like tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_event don't seem to have this view, they are no better then any other religious fanatic that wishes to impose their religion on everyone else be they UBL or P. Roberson.
There will always be ingrate people you will whish to blame some other group for the problems of the world whether it’s people with different colour skin, different culture, different faith or lack of, different Country, different, state, different suburb, different street. These hateful people come from all walks of life and thankfully the people who wish to stop it come from all walks of life to. Some people will never learn the worlds problems are caused by intolerance and exclusion and can only be solved by tolerance and inclusion.
PS some would say the import of US style churches has change the Australian christian movement for the worst as well.

Kenny,
I doubt if you really opearate with an open slather tolerance and inclusion policy, yourself.
Do you include people who wish to make exclusions, and will not tolerate some things?
'Full scale' tolerance and inclusion are an illusion.

No it is not you wish it to be I have no wish to control what other people do as long as they don't harm others, I admit that is the hard up but some middle ground can always be found between parties of good will. You can see lines that cannot be crossed becuase of your beliefs thats fine don't cross them but why do you wish to stop other people why do you believe you have the right to do so. Don't say their Gods rules because becuase there is another load of loopy behind you with different version of Gods word. Our religon is exactly that yours you follow it don't make me and don't judge me by your standards judge yourself by how well you follow your own.

I don’t think the original is in Lakemba, but there are a large number of protégés reside in that area. You doubt the authenticity, well better do your own home work, Al-Qadir is one answer. It is of no relevance what you believe or not, for me it is relevant and so it is for the rest of us here. But you obviously have a restricted perspective for obvious reasons. So here is an Academic appraisal for everyone else.
http://jonjayray.tripod.com/saddam.html

As I have stated in other places, this Phenomena is designed for a purpose” Multiculturalism or any of the fraudulent academic claims” of diversity. Are just snouts in the trough by Looters and Professional liars and Looters, that goes back a few thousand years hay.
And here is when it started, note the similarities:
http://i-cias.com/e.o/mazdakism.htm

Because so many hide their heads and deny the facts, there are some worth reading Irf, a challenge other than the Quranic Verses.

Well, John Stone, at least we've all learned one thing from your article: your supporters aren't biased -- they eschew religious tolerance, reason, logic, spelling, grammar and syntax with approximately equal devotion.

John Stone:
How did the bombings in London show that multi-culturalism isn't working? It did show that terrorism and hate-filled messages are generally not about to be integrated into London's multi-cultural society. The British made it very clear after the bombings that they were distinguishing between the terrorists and the local Muslim community.

I can't help wonder why agitators like John Stone focus on Muslim cultural difference. Here in Australia we have hateful Nationalists groups and white-supremacist groups that are clearly not integrating into the general flow of society.

Culturalism is not just religion and race bound - it is attitude bound. Just look at John Stone's supporters' posts above and let me assure you there are plenty of folk who would not assimilate, integrate or be a part of such ideals, attitudes and behaviour. Groups and individuals, who make a hobby of attacking immigrants, are openly exclusive in their attitude and mean-spirited in their carry on. The evidence permeates OLO.

The problem is that serious discussion about the negative behaviour that is terrorism/warfare is suppressed as people get caught up in blaming racial differences. The irony is that often the main similarity is that cultural aspect (shared by terrorists and agitators both West and East) that endorses violence as a solution.

John Stone and his supporters are different to me and I suggest many other Australians; and some Muslims are more like me and others in the things we appreciate and the cultural behaviours we embody.

Multi-culture is here to stay because we are all different. OLO's many opinions confirm this.

It is you John Stone, a Christian, who is trying to exclude immigrants from Australia. Thus, using John Stone's logic, all Christians are exclusionary.

You John Stone have supported the Western terrorism in Iraq against innocent citizens for the last eleven years. Thus, using John Stone's logic, all Christians are terrorists.

Fellow posters, given the nasty carry-on OLO, a 17th century slogan for you all: "...griefs were not made for beasts but for men. Yet if men feel them too deeply they turn to beasts." (Gentleness).

I agree rancitas.

Much of the support base for Stone (like Hanson) are just a fringe, however, some immigration practices are always worth reviewing - even if the same egalitalian conclusions are reached.

Posters need to remember that no Muslim terrorists have killed anybody in Australia. I reckon little Johny's security policies are the best way to maintain that record.

Irfan

While I agree that Muslims should not be discriminated against. Your last 2 posts don't do our cause much good.

While I almost always disagree with Leigh he has a right not to receive such a label - he often puts up good arguments.

As to Boazy - you know he can't reply for a while - so its a cheap shot.

So Irfan I suggest you leave the headbutts for Liberal party branch meetings, write less egocentric articles and leave the guerilla warfare in strings to OLO's esteemed lefties and the odd former spooky moderate.

Bye for a week.

[Deleted for flaming]

Anyhow Rancitas, extreme white nationalism should be considered a by product of the 'multiculture' that is here to stay. It seems to surface when multiculti is vorciferously shoved down an unwilling participants throats.

Look at France. The 'decision makers' thought multiculti was as great as it looks on paper. The ordinary man on the street obviously see things differently evidenced by their reluctance to accept the new 'socialist' voting bloc and consumers for the benefit of big business.

Immigration, explosion des banlieues...

I've amended some posts above. I may have missed some that are offensive, and am happy for posters to point any out to me. We have rules on this site to try and keep the debate moderate. I try to exercise as light a hand as possible, but this thread seems to be getting increasingly offensive.

I would hope that all posters and moderators would see the need for open and frank debate on this issue. When someone starts deleting or ammending posts deemed to be offensive, then its censureship - and censureship is a form of tirany. It is a denial of freedom of expression. Truth and honesty do not need bodyguards.

One of the many problems with Islamic societies (and Muslim communities in the West) is that they do not want to hear things that they don't like. Because of this we have the many problems inherent to Islamic cultures. How can they solve a problem if they cannot consider it, or if they must always blame it on 'external' factors? For Muslims, to consider any problem as intrinsic to Islam, its doctrine and great prophet is unthinkable.

I have given up posting to Islamic sites. My comments are usually deleted, no manner how sincere or polite. They are afraid or simply refuse to consider your thoughts and opinions, because they are, by Islam's own definition, blasphemy. Thus one cannot discuss terror or domestic abuse or any other issue in function of Islam, because it is not in their rules.

Thanks to multiculturalism and PC thought, any public debate about Islam must be conducted under those limitations. Hence, debate is no debate at all, just a bunch of cute , meaningless words.

This issue (immigration) and the greater one (terror) is not going away. We need more honest debates like this, not the phoney TV and public conferences that are feel good kumbaya events that resolve nothing.

The issue here is not "race" "culture" "negative behaviour" or even "hate speech" - this is about terror and people who want to impose their ideology and way of life on others. This is about a people who support terror and about a people that refuses to contemplate the hate, anger and intolerance in the ideology they proclaim. These people do not want to talk about the real issues - instead they hide behind epithets or seek to silence others.

It will get worse!

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough Kactuz. The deletions were for impolite language. You can go and check where they occurred - they are marked between square brackets and the reason for deletion is given.

Kaktuz,

Your comments/ phobia are built on incorrect assumptions:

1. Islam in one line: belief in one God, messengers and holy books, pray, fast and pay the alms (poors due). Can one be a Muslim without believing in the hadith? The answer is yes.
2. Hadith have no divinity and was ignored by the prophet (Only the Quran was written during his time). It was also ignored by his followers and successors. Hadith started being collected 2 centuries after the prophet (PBUH) death.
3. Hadith, given its diverse sources have validation rules and beyond couple of hundreds common ones, should be taken cautiously. It is a fair assumption to say that most hadith are not believable by most Muslims. Dawood did a great job explaining sources and validation rule when looking at the hadith but basically should be narrated and not conflicting with the Quran.
4. ‘Reliable’ Hadith is a secondary part to the Islamic legislative system (known as Shariah). I am not rejecting all the hadith but I am saying common sense need to apply when you read the material. Hadith was written by mortal men about mortal men 9 centuries ago.
5. There is no room for blind faith in Islam: in your world the church banned 60 gospels from circulation, in our faith the filtering of information it at the individual level.
6. Out of the Abraham faith: Islam is the only religion that accepts the other two as people of the book. That explains if you compare apples to apples (ie religious states): Islamic countries had Christian and jewish minorities throughout history and in many cases reached senior positions in Muslims dominated countries (996 AD-1055AD, many examples today). In a church controlled state throughout history, Ferdinand and Isabella is the most common example. Prove me wrong if you can..

PS: I counted around 1,500 posting by you, Boaz, Skid, with angry, hateful, provocative and ridiculing tone...Do you stick by your statement 'there are no tolerant, intellectual muslims'? :-)

Peace and good W/E

Rancidus asks the question "How did the bombings in London show that multi-culturalism isn't working?"

You really have to shake your head in pitying wonder at the mindset that can not figure that out. Rancidus can not make the connection that when "British" Muslim homeboys aspire to mass murder British people, that it could in any way be indicative of an unbridgeable social divide or a society approaching critical mass.

Rancidus's attitude is just like the old joke about the man walking down the steet with an elephant. When his friend asks him what is he doing walking around with an elephant, the man replies "Elephant? What elephant?"

One attepted bombing of British people had been thwarted by Scotland Yard prior to the successful London bombings. Another attempt by "British" Muslims to poison London's water supply was also thwarted by the alert Special Branch. Te second wave of bombings directed at London commuters quite literally fizzled out when the home made bombs refused to detonate.

But to Rancidus, all of this is just normal everyday activity in Multicultural Land. "Elephant?" says Rancidus. "What elephant?"

Everyone Part 1

Pretty heated debate huh?

Now all of this passionate philosophical debate is a wonderful thing and out of such debates has grown the world as we know it, for good or bad, but the reality is the further you sit away from the fence (on either side!) the more chance that violence is a bornin’. Anyone got the definition of “Fanatic” handy? Ergo the more compromise the more peace (bit simplistic I know, but 350 words is sorta small to get such complicated concepts across)

Now let’s look at this debate from a more pragmatic viewpoint without bandying about the old PC do gooders vs. racist bigots comments.

We all love this Fantastic Wonderful Lucky country we live in. Right? (Why live here if we don’t?)

We are all concerned with our own and our loved one’s safety. Right? (Bit heartless if you don’t)

Now as far as I can see, this issue isn’t about how screwed this country already is, but whether Muslims should be allowed to immigrate here, as proposed in John Stones article. My opinion, after reading the 3 related articles by MR J. Stone (since only going on about just the one article would be half cocked surely? Not knowing the whole story and all that? Taking it out of context, etc. Note to self…point belaboured enough.) I have to say there are some things I strongly agree about in his articles, some valid points, and some I strongly don’t.

Firstly I would like to commend him on his actually giving some solutions to the problem as seen from his perceived point of view. Looking back there doesn’t really seem to be much constructive criticism from a realistic point of view, just a “modicum” (new word…found it yesterday, and I think it goes well with sarcasm) of mud slinging, use of soapbox preaching, and individual flaming (says as I get into my fireproof suit :P HeHe)

To Be Continued……. (POST 1 of 5)

Everyone Part 2

I would also like to agree with his belief that immigration into Australia and its follow up be much better controlled. In fact, some of his solutions mentioned to achieve that are quite reasonable ways to assimilate potential immigrants into OUR society. Lets not forget at this point is that we didn’t not ask the most of these people to come here so asking them to have a knowledge of our laws and customs, and being able to speak the language is really not too much to ask. Is it? (Oz takes them in + they learn the language = compromise). Is it our right to pick and choose just a little bit? The same way you pick and choose who you let into your own home?

Don’t get me wrong, I strongly disagree with his suggestion that multiculturalism is doomed and Muslims should be stopped at the door all together.

1. Multiculturalism is the reason why I can have just about any ethnic food I want to try, it is the reason why science has progressed as far as it has (for all of the history buffs, Which country developed the atomic bomb in WWII by scientists of which nationality? Would that be the US with German scientists?) , it is new ideas, new perspectives, new worlds to explore, new energy, new debates. I don’t know about you but I don’t want to live in a stagnant backwater country (take China 30 years ago) because I am scared of change. Better get off the 21st century if you do. Multicultural policies are why I am here. I don’t want anyone to give up their past, since as they say, it makes us who we are (and EVERYONE in Australia can trace their ancestors back to immigrants….EVEN the aboriginals...just a bit longer ago)

To Be Continued……. (POST 2 of 5)

Most of the ethnic groups I've worked and broken bread with in this country hate each other. They may be doctors or security guards it's all the same feeling. Without strong government they'd be all at each other's throats.

Multiculturalism working?

The Turkish, Lebanese, Arab, Indonesian, Persian, Nth African and Albanian moslems don't seem be drowning in a sea of islamic love for each other as is often pointed out by Irfan himself. Maybe we should give them their own islamic mini state within Australia? It'd be an interesting experiment and after enjoying a ringside seat on mossie behaviour for many years in different countries, a top rating reality show to boot.

Carniflex :Shooooosh, do not make such humorous suggestions or even think of such ideas, our Elites and looter with moochers might just ramp multiculturalism to the next level of surrendering sovereignty, what you thought to be a silly suggestion and a slight humorous intent, will perhaps be their Ideological wet dream, a concept for a newer strand of Moochers and looters. What ever made you think of such an Idea: Please only think such things; please do not displays those thoughts in public, their Ideological Ideas are bad and sinister at the least- as they are, no need to encourage further ones.

Can I please remind everyone of the cruel way in which the naturally evolved Australians were displaced from this land by the British? Makes terrorism look like childs play.
(Terrorism is nonetheless a very very bad thing of course,worthy of the new laws :O) )

Everyone Part 3

2. I have no problem with any Religion, Race or physical problem, (and before anyone asks, I am a green Martian scientologist with one leg….it really doesn’t matter :P) so I am sure that the majority of the individuals who are Moslem and want to come to our country will add to society immeasurably but like some of the posters have kindly pointed out there is a minority that won’t. So how do we stop the ones that will be detrimental?

May I tell a little story? What if all of the currently active bullies only wore red shirts? Now if you stopped all of the children wearing red shirts from entering the play ground it wouldn’t be very fair because some aren’t bullies. Oh the dilemma what to do? What if there was a test? A bully test? A screening process maybe? That way you could stop only the bullies from going in, because it’s hard enough to pick the bullies you’ve already got than to add a few more.

Now would it be reasonable to apply that to this question of Muslim immigration? (I know I know….on a very simplistic level) We all agree that currently a lot of these terrorist acts perpetrated overseas were by fundamentalist Moslem groups? So I can see why a lot of people are afraid that we could inadvertently import the problem to Oz. Wouldn’t the screening process be a better compromise? Wouldn’t this screening process also help stop any of the yellow or blue shirted bullies getting into the playground to? (Be they Scottish Gay Thugs, The Nasty Faction, or Penguins for Moral Fortitude Note not real) It is a matter of CONTROL because bad things happen when you can’t control the situation (ask any 747 pilot).

We know Fanatics and fundamentalists are BAD. We know that a lot of the currently dangerous ones belong to a particular group, so I am enough of a realist not to realise it narrows down the search somewhat don’t you think?

To Be Continued……. (POST 3 of 5)

Everyone Part 4

Is that wrong or is that just being realistic? I am also enough of a realist to know that being politically correct and dead, as opposed to practical and alive is a much better thing (and probably much better for the families of the victims too).

If not accepting someone into Australia because of their beliefs is wrong, put you hands up who agrees with the guy who is a Nazi sympathiser and claims that the holocaust didn’t happen? The same guy Oz refused entry and is now in prison somewhere (sorry can’t remember his name…and, more importantly, can’t be arsed finding it :P ). Who wants to let a card carrying IRA member move in 3 doors down? Who want’s a member of the PLO in their car pool? Anyone for a Nazi babysitter? This has nothing to do with colour. (BTW, can anyone tell me what colour most of those Moslems in Europe are? A few might even be white! Gasp!) It has everything to do with identifying and preventing a possible threat to our country.

It is hard to fight any war, but to fight a terror war, is impossible without control. An individuals rights are sacrosanct but an individuals rights should never be to the detriment to the society as a whole (probably a quote by someone famous so apologies if I am stealing it) but isn’t it basically what this should be about, the well being of Our Society in Australia?

To Be Continued……. (POST 4 of 5)

Everyone Part 5

On one final note I will bid you all adieu. It is easy to sit and debate this sort of issue here where we are safe (so far! :o( ) but this question is probably already at the forefront of Australian minds and their consequences aren’t so pretty. They are the Australian troops serving in the Iraq theatre of War. They are asking themselves the same question some of our fathers asked themselves in Vietnam. Is that civilian walking down the street over there; is that civilian in the car approaching; is that civilian pushing that pram; is that the civilian who is carrying the explosive device, the grenade, the gun that will end my life?? Not because they are racist, or moralistic, or bigots, or politically correct, or anti-religious but because they are REALISTIC. I bet they control who goes into their little piece of Australia!!

The End ….. For now. :D

Dawood Part1

On the subject of Isabella check this out, http://www.isfsp.org/isabella.pdf

Being offended is optional and is a luxury, some get considerable pleasure from being offended, some see offendability as a monkey on their back but still, their inherited responsibility. Before I get carried away I estimate the probable cost. Is offense intended. What would constitute a victory for the attempting offender. What could constitute a victory for me, the prospective offendee. There is also mock offense, where the offendee uses the ' offense' as leverage to press his or her agenda.

Any body who stands on a soap box is a prophet. From the Judeo-Christian perspective, the term 'Prophet of God ', implies that God has given authority and understanding to the prophet. Prophets of God have to be tested and proved . This usually happens some time after they have been murdered.

The Prophets of God are not fortune tellers, astrologers etc., nor do they predict the future. The Prophets of God reveal God's agendas. God ensures that His agendas are completed on time, every time, when time is involved. There is no element of chance or magic involved, sometimes there are conditions or provisions to be met The only credit the prophet can claim is to have been chosen by God to be His messenger.

When Jesus the Christ came He came in the fulfillment of Prophesy. Everything about His existence was the fulfillment of prophesy. Below is a list of scriptures detailing prophesies fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Most of these Jesus virtually declares, “Look at Me, I am fulfilling another prophesy, they all have to be fulfilled”.

Mat 1:22,2:15,2:17,2:23,4:14,5:18,8:17,12:18,13:14,13:35,21:4,26:56,27:9,27:35
Mark 1:15,13:4,14:49,15:28
Luke 1:20,4:21,21:22,21:24,22:16,24:44
John 3:29,12:38,13:19,15:25,17:12,17:13,18:9,18:32,19:24,19:36
Acts 1:16,3:18,13:27,13:29,13:33
Isa 28:16

Possibility wise, many prophesies could be fulfilled by many, or by anyone, but not all. Daniel and Revelation are chronological prophesies. The timing of Jesus Christ and His function was given through the Prophet Daniel, 500 years before the event. Daniel's chronological prophesies, in conjunction with Revelation are still fulfilling, the clock is still ticking.

What did you convert from?

continued.

Dawood Part2

I am not aware that Mohammed's coming was a fulfillment of a prophesy unless it was when Jesus Christ spoke to the men of Israel saying, “I came in the name of the Lord, and you rejected Me, but when another comes in his own name, him you will accept”.

Mohammed said Jesus Christ failed. Failed what I would like to know. It was never possible for Jesus to fail, it was only possible for those offered redemption to fail. Jesus Christ declared what He didn't come for, prophesy declared what He did come for. Jesus Christ did every thing that prophesy demanded, everything that the covenants with Abraham and Moses demanded. He was 100% successful.

Mohammed failed to recognise, Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God since the foundation.
Mohammed failed to recognise, that the Laws of Moses and Jesus that he declared as beginning valid but later failing, were in fact one law, which was perfect as God makes everything perfect, was infallible, and could not be changed. Mohammed produced different Law, therefore blasphemous, which also makes Mohammed a blasphemer when he claims to be a prophet of God.

There are unusual similarities between the Muslim religion and the Papal religion. The Anglican religion would like the Muslim religion to be the leopard like beast. If the Muslim religion was able to qualify for the position of 'Leopard like beast' that would mean that there were two instead of one. In all respects, murders, rapes, tortures, blasphemes, fulfillers of prophesies of blasphemes, ecumenicalisms, compromises and deceptions, the Muslim religion at any time, fails to reach up to the Papal boot laces.

When we consider Biblical Israel there is a family tree starting Jacob, and with a descendant of David always on the throne. Some say that the Queen of England is a descendant of David and her throne is the throne of David. The Papacy had the power to set up and destroy kings in Europe. The successful and obedient developed Royal Family lines. A few still exist.

Continued.

What a mixed up conversation, this thread has turned out to be.
Even so, it seems John Stone has touched a raw nerve.

One point: it is not just the 'terrorist' Muslim that enter the country and alters Australian society for the worse. It is the agenda of Islam. The missional aims to claim territory geographically.

How long will it take the average sleepy atheist, agnostic, lazy adherent to some Christian-ish idea of life, and the general 'bush baptist' ocker to realise that it wasn't too bad under Christendom, and its offshoots.

Not that mere sleepy Christendom is the ideal either. Something far better has yet to be realised by former Christendom societies. The real McCoy:

The reality is true community, relating to Father, Son and Spirit, in the climate of grace, and truth.

C'mon Australia, by all means avoid the cashed up churches and shysters, but why not work it through again, hear what Christainity is saying - and where it seems wisdom calls, embrace the genuine way of life, given in Christ - freedom!

First it was the Irish, then the Germans, then it was the Chinese, then the Italians, then the Poms, then the Vietnamese and now it's the Muslims who are going to change our Culture. You know that Culture that hasn't change dramatically over the last hindered years or so. Eh every Aussie knows how to sheer a sheep and drink beer to the cows come home. The xenophobes were wrong then and their wrong now.

Kenny, you have the worst grammar and the worst spelling out of all the posters on this forum.

Is that how you talk in real life: do you live in Sydney, King's Cross perhaps.

Anyway keep mincing and wincing.

Kenny is right. The mad racists are wrong. Gimme a Wallabies jersey anyday. I may look like an All-Black, but deep down I'm a Wallaby. But it takes brains to know that. Understanding other people requires some brain cells. Racists tend to lack those very cells.

Never mind how lazy I am with my typing Davo (intellectual rigor is not your strong point here) try thinking about how lazy you are with your thinking. Try exploring the root cause of your hatred for your fellow man. Because I'm bet my left one if it wasn't our Muslims brothers you were talking about then it would be someone else. Asians, Europeans, Africans or anybody else’s name that doesn't rhyme with smoko. I might be light on grammer but your light on substance Davo.

The confusion continues among those who claim to be intellectually rigorous. So let's take it slowly, one more time.

1. Racism is wrong. Correct. Agreed.

...now, slowly remember...

2. Religion. Government. Community Rules. Taboos, etc. are a different matter than Race. These things are choices and decisions.

We must always, be allowed to critique and test, and even reject ideas, beliefs, and religious 'systems'.

... for those who need it a little clearer...

A. Races [& nationalities] include:
Chinese, Italians, Iranians, English, Irish etc.

B. Religions, Creeds, Ideas, Cults and Systems include:
Communism, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Anglicanism, Klu Klux Klan, Atheism, etc.

Race & Religion are different.
You are born into a race [or mixture thereof].

You may be born into a 'religion' and 'religious system', and 'body of ideas' but that can be accepted, rejected, criticised, critiqued or tolerated.

Have a nice day!

Criticism of a belief system is one thing. Hate-filled ranting is another. What we are seeing on this forum from loonies is hatred based on ignorance and generalisations. Frrom John Stone, it can be forgiven. He is, after all, getting on a little. Senility can compromise a person's reasoning abilities. But some of the lunatic fringe that congregate on this forum and spew hatred toward people they haven't even met is the sort of stuff Auschwitz guards are made of.

AUSTRALIA-1 PARTY (version 1.1)

PALIMENTARY LEADER John Stone/Plantagenet/TUS ?
TREASURY Realist (Seems to be good with money)
INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS Noel Pearson
FOREIGN AFFAIRS Pericles (usually sees things as they are..usually)
DEFENCE Skid (The PitBull) Marx (go get em boy)
INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS Col Rouge ( Now, .. its like THIS)
IMMIGRATION Redneck ( a simple job.. just say ‘no’)
EDUCATION/Culture Justin86 (The Philosopher/Thinker)
YOUTH AFFAIRS Pastor Dave (Turning boys into men and girls into women)
ETHNIC AFFAIRS (we have some ?)
WOMENS ISSUES Kalweb/Meredith
PASTORAL Robert

Slated for immediate Exile to Tasmania (you can shout all you like,...but we can’t hear u :)

Almanac, Kenny, Rancitas , Ranier, Fellow Human, Dawood.

For Re-education: (there is still hope :)

Laurie, Scout, Xena, Enaj.

Yes..of course.. this is tongue in cheek and deliberately provocative. In fact, the exile and re-education thoughts are based on the ‘left’ model :). The simple act of seeing how Australia ‘could’ be in the forum context, with people we are familiar with, probably gives us more insight into the polarization of our current political process. The truth is, we have very different approaches to and beliefs about issues effecting us all. Perhaps the deliberate exclusion of some, and inclusion of others, will help us reflect on the need to seek as much commonality as possible, so that no-one in fact feels disenfranchised.

For those who feel my ‘list’ is exclusionary, discriminatory, unfair, Nazi like, just take a moment to realize that those of differing views would feel the same if certain ‘different’ names were listed.

With sufficient dialogue and interaction, I’m sure even Kactuz and Fellow Human, Redneck and Rancitas could actually see each others points of view and reach an agreement. Once we actually understand that most of us really want the same thing, but tend to see others through the blinkers of our own experience and engage in ‘transferance’ of all our accumulated ‘stereotypes’ of what these positions involve, projecting them onto others who don’t share our views.

“Collective Behavior” is a fascinating study, specially as we are all experiencing it in this forum.

BD, welcome back. Nice post. Not sure I want the pastoral role. Maybe you could line me up for re-education, I like some of the company in that group (even if I disagree with them from time to time). You might keep in mind that forced re-education tends to have the opposite effect than is intended by the forcer.

R0bert

Thanx Rob, Irf, take ur tablets :)

Recent documentary on the ABC, traced the origins of Immigration2 Postwar Australia.
The primary goal was the Populate or Perish mentality. After WW2 we had 7 million people.
We were surrounded by many new independent Asian countries.

LABOR AT THE FOREFRONT
Arthur Callwell, a notable Labor figure, was at the forefront of this movement to populate.
The rise of the ‘white’ Australia policy was partly a reaction to the ‘reaction’ of existing Australians to the first boat load of ‘European/Asian’ migrants, (less than hospitable).

It was decided to seek ‘culturally/socially’ compatible migrants from the ‘right stock’ which was considered to be those of similar background to the main racial groups already in Australia, hence British/Irish/Scottish were prime candidates. (what a surprise !)

It should go without saying, that to ‘defend’ a country requires ‘loyalty’ and this in turn is usually derived from ones sense of history, ethnicity, language and cultural identification.

HUMAN REALITIES
This is clear as a ‘human reality’ from the expansion of Islam, where non muslims under Islamic rule were exempt from Military service, due to doubts about who they would in fact be fighting for.
The same applies for Muslims living in Australia. Who really expects Muslims to shoot other ‘brothers’ if we happen to be confronted by Indonesia ? Who would expect those who consider themselves “Greeks of Australian nationality” to fight ‘Greek brothers’ who might take a liking to our land ? Their perception would undoubtedly be “We can be transformed from a cultural minority to a political majority with privilege, position and power” overnight”.

HISTORY
This thinking has characterized the Bogomils of Bosnia converted to Islam to obtain the protection of the Turks from Orthodox Slavs and Greeks, Low Caste Hindu’s in Tamil Nadu looking to Islam for status because of ill treatment by high cast Hindu’s. Serbs in Bosnia also fought the Muslims so they would NOT be transformed from ‘part of a majority’ (of Yugoslavia) to a ‘religious minority’ in Bosnia.

Why do people ‘collectively behave’ this way ? simple, they know human nature

R0bert - you can sit up the back of class with me anytime............

Irf - you can join me on the playground - go Wallabies!

BD - what a shame your little break hasn't been enlightening for you. Still condemning a massive group of people from a diverse range of countries for the actions of the deranged.

When I see comments by Irfan, they make me feel sad. Here is a guy who has said some good things regarding Islamic terrorism, yet, and I suspect his ridiculous responses are the result of cultural conditioning, some sort of automatic, sub-concious response to his "kind" being attacked.

Irfan, get out more, form a group that is truly opposed to terrorism, go and protest out the front of Sheik Feiz, Sheik Omran, or if they're too fringe and unrepresentative of Muslims, go to Sheik Hilali's mosque to protest. He is a leader who is a sick, bigoted, homophobic, supporter of terrorism, and by you Muslims doing nothing makes Australians think your not on our side.

I happen to personally belive, after extensive reading regarding Islam, that it can't be reformed unless you rip out vital Islamic teachings of forcing Sharia onto the world, waging war on infidels, and so on. This can't happen as it did for the Christians. When they reformed Christianity and made it accessible to all people, those who read it realised that the popes that encouraged violence weren't following it. However, with Islam, the founder wasn't a nice man. He robbed caravans, massacred Jewish tribes, killed dissenters, took child bride - Aisha, and more. How to reform a religion when the book is another version of Mein Kampf ?

Anyone else agree?

i agree, the koran is a thesis on world domination for islam, i personally think its vile. It doesn't fit in the West at all unless in the negative ways we see.

like what has islam done for you today ?

BOAZ_David

Welcome back mate! OLO has not been the same without you.

Can I please request a change of portfolio? I would much prefer advocating for Men's Issues. You fellas need a good woman to stand up for you.

Benjamin, I agree about Irf. He has written some great articles for OLO. But his spurious and sarcastic comments to other posters of late really detracts from his self claimed moderate persona.

Cheers
Kay

Cant help myself-
Try taking the christian Bible literally one day. Even the most fundamental of fundamentalists can't get close - they'd be arrested immediately for anti-human activity.
The fact is that most religious practicioners, whatever the strain, look to their relevent 'manual' for guidance. Most are intelligent enough to filter out the bits that are simply not applicable to this time & place. In relation to this debate- to analyse the Koran as a literal guide to life is no more relevent than doing the same with the Bible
Context, please...

Dawood part3

When we consider Biblical Israel there is a family tree starting Jacob, and with a descendant of David always on the throne. Some say that the Queen of England is a descendant of David and her throne is the throne of David. The Papacy had the power to set up and destroy kings in Europe. The successful and obedient developed Royal Family lines. A few still exist.

The Caesars were a royal line that ruled Rome. When the Bishop of Rome rose to the seat of Caesar and seized the Septor, what happened to the Caesars? Did they remain as a covert power within the church? Mohammed also started a royal family line. Islam is a fake religion, It's use of the Israelite God without the Israelite Law is blasphemous.

John Stone,

The following is derived from some history, spurious propaganda, and intellectually honest opinion.

I have heard it said that the first world war was a stupendous family brawl, that is all the heads of state of all the states involved were blood relatives. This poses a problem for me. What the hell was Australia doing fighting in Turkey, the remains of the Ottoman Empire? Could it be that the Queen, as well as being of the house of David is also of the house of Mohammed i.e., Asoma Bin Lardon's cousin. That would be two out of four. As a subset of the Papacy prier to the reformation, three out of four. For four out of four, is it possible that the Queen of England is also of the house of Caesar? Of course it is possible. What is all this Islamic insanity about then? Could it not merely be a red herring to divert our attention from the obvious? Is Islam being set up so it can be conquered? Will Prince Charles become the first King of the New World Order, Having blood links to every conceivable interest?

What is your opinion on this, John, and what is the obvious that we are being distracted from?

Well said Benjamin

Go to http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com

And scroll down you'll see the post....
"Rumi was no suicide bomber"

Go further, you'll see....

Actually, my greatest hero (after the Prophet Muhammad) was also a lawyer.

Don't know which is worse, having a murderous paedophile or a laywer for a hero! :)

Irf, it's not the colour of your skin but your ideology.

GoldBrick,

Few corrections on your posting re islam, if I may:

- Islam never claimed that Jesus failed on the contrary, in more than a part of the Quran (3, 4) God promises Jesus a large followers (Boaz can confirm this one).
- I assumed the prophecies you are talking about with Dawood is the anti-christ? Both Jesus & Mohamed warned from anti-Christ with the same definition:
o He will have super natural powers (Mohamed PBUH didn’t).
o The biblical prophecy was to Jews who rejected Jesus, but they also rejected Mohamed and Islam.
- In Bibilcal teachings: God/ religion is exclusive to the Israelites. According to Islam, God’s teachings and prophethood was in Abraham children (ie Ishmaelite prophets and Israelites) The Quran also claims many non-abraham prophets teaching unity throughout history.

Benjamin,

I don’t think anyone I know in the Muslim community hold any value for Sheikh Fayez comment or respect to his teachings. I attended couple of times Sheikh Hilali last Ramadan and nothing he said was in the lines of your accusations.

It sounds you are mixing up two terms : ‘support for terrorism’ and ‘denial’:

My understanding from the news that Sheikh Omran denies Muslims involvement in any terrorism. Sadly a number of religious imams hold the conspiracy theory view because they have an ideal picture of what a Muslim can and cannot do. Muslims like anybody else are humans and can commit crimes and become terrorists.

In the real ugly world out there I have seen people blowing up tourist buses, schools and policemen in Egypt and claiming it to be in the name of my religion.
Few Imams woke up but many more are still in denial and they need to wake up to action really fast.

Protest does not solve ideology problems but open debates does.

tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_event,

"You may be born into a 'religion' and 'religious system', and 'body of ideas' but that can be accepted, rejected, criticised, critiqued or tolerated."

These are all human traits... we were created in God's own image, with a free will to question our beliefs [Unless you are a muslim of course.]

However I don't believe that anyone can be born a christian. Jesus was very explicit when he said "you must be born again..."

Swilkie,

The proof is in the 'pudding'... you can judge a tree by its fruit.
Psalm 34:8 says

"Taste and see that the LORD is good;
blessed is the man who takes refuge in him."

Benjamin,
I agree - it is impossible for us to reason with muslims; this is a spirutual fight not intellectual. Islam is not just a different religion but it is so unrelated to the Judaeo-Christian concept of God; that unless they (muslims) start questioning their nomadic ritualistic fear driven beliefs and ask for God's wisdom they will continue to “follow" the wrong god and die without ever knowing God.

As a christian I call on all my brothers and sisters to pray for these lost souls that they may see the light before it's too late.

Ladies and gentleman of the Judeo-Christian branch of al-Qaida. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. If they were all so hell-bent on you, they would have done so already. If you allow yourself to be deluded by the notion that people whose blood, bones and faeces are the same colour as yours are all part of a huge conspiracy to kill you, be my guest. But understand that I and 1.2 billion other people have no interest in killing you. Yes, we may wish to have some of you compulsorily admitted to institutions (which is understandable given some of the posts here). But kill you, no.

Coach,

'its impossible for us to reason with Muslims' is a choice and not a conclusion.

Muslims are open for reason and reasoning (and I think more than a poster on this forum including myself demonstrated that).

As Muslims we must accept Christians and Jews as people of the book.
It is the combination you mentioned that refuses us.

Again it is your choice but don't use the 'muslims don't reason' smoke screen.

See my blogspot:
http://www.musliminsight.blogspot.com article on Christian Copts.

Ifran,
I see you are becoming as jaded as many of us thought you might with the continued slander and denigration of your beliefs.

I ask you, as a fellow man, forgive these people their narrow views. I see the frustration in your posts and feel it is leading to the inevitable disconnection with those outside your culture. I for one would be happy to talk and listen to you – on all many of subjects. I find you intelligent, fair and honest – and I even disagree with your politics!

If it helps, I think there are more tolerant than intolerant. It would seem to me that the intolerant need to voice their fears louder than the tolerant. So if you can, put it down to weakness in them. And, as your faith suggest, forgive them.

As to this article. We saw the author and know his position. That he continues to write is only because he has lost his voice elsewhere. He will pass, like a mild, ineffectual storm in a short while…

Peace my friend…

Irfan,

“But understand that I and 1.2 billion other people have no interest in killing you. Yes, we may wish to have some of you compulsorily admitted to institutions”

Thanks but no thanks. I leave that to you and your 1.2 billion other people.

Fellow_Human,

You are asking me to reason with you – using your example:

”As Muslims we must accept Christians and Jews as people of the book.”

Please explain:

1. What exactly do you mean by ‘accept’? (We don’t need your charity - unless you mean dhimmitude)
2. How many of you have read “the book”? (or are you scared you might discover the truth?)
3. Do you believe “the book” is the infallible word of God? (or it has been changed as a conspiracy to fool you)
4. If you believe in the central message of “the book” how can you believe in something else that came some 700 years later?
5. It says in “the book” that Jesus is the Way to the Father (God)

"Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:5-7

Please comment.

coach,
you seem to have adopted the personal approach, as the coach: talking to each player at half time, individually, is a nice touch. But don't forget to listen carefully to your team!

You will note, I included Anglicanism, and Roman Catholicism, as examples of 'religious systems' into which one is sometimes born. And yes, their 'system' can be critiqued, as they usually are, in about those teenage years, or before. That is my point.

Islam should also be critiqued. And of course, you will know that many from Islam, have become Christians, once they have met Christ, by faith.

And yes, I agree that Jesus said you need to be born anew, to enter, let alone even see the kingdom of God.

However, you might leave a bit of room in your theology, as to when and how that may take place, by faith. Even in the womb. John the Baptizer is a grand example of such a person, filled with the Spirit, in the womb, [says Dr Luke]. (this also leaves the possibility open for little ones who live only a few days - or don't even get the privilege of making their entry into this world, alive. Enough on that diversion).

I hope you didn't miss my 2 points:
1. Yes, all races, are created from "one blood" (Acts 17). Racism is wrong.
2. No, being critical of the deficiencies of Islam, or any other 'system' is not being racist. It is being human.

Criticising beliefs is a human activity, that must be open for all to do. Even your (and my) enthusiastic Christian views must be open to critique and testing. But surely, people must refrain from calling others 'bigots', 'racists' and 'rednecks', whenever they are critical of the tenets of Islam, Communism, Pentecostalism, Methodism, Facism, Mormonism, Atheism, or any other systematised approach to life.

tennyson, I think you will find if you look at many of the posts here that the complaint is not so much about the criticising of Islam as such but rather
- the insistance of some in doing nothing other than critising Islam. With some posters here one gets the impression that if FH or Irfran (or maybe Scout trying out her headcovering) tried to buy a bus ticket and the relevant poster was the bus driver they would get a lecture on the evils of Islam rather than a bus ticket.
- the double standards which exist regarding that criticism. Some are in utter denial about the brutality in the Christian Old Testament while at the same time utterly obsessed with the life of Mohammed.
- the attempts to treat all muslims in a discriminatory manner based on views of the posters about the nature of Islam rather than on the muslims individual interpretation of their faith. Islam has things they don't like so therefore all muslims are blood thirsty killers intent on world domination.
- the attacks on those of us trying to engage in a dialog with muslim posters. Not only are they not willing to engage in polite discussion themselves, they get upset by others attempting to do so.

There are probably other items which could go on that list but I guess it is a start. I've noticed that Irfran is getting some flack over recent posts which have been much milder in tone that the vast bulk of the posts directed at him by christains.

If more of the christain posters on this site demonstrated some of the "fruits of the spirit" they might bring the same kind of credit to the christain faith as FH and Irfran bring to their faith for those of us willing to judge based on character rather than theology.

R0bert

Dear Swilkie

I would hope, and even PRAY..that you will subject the Bible and my faith to the severest of critical scrutiny. Probably this is why I find it hard to understand why it seems so threatening and 'hateful' to others about their own positions.

IRF... have I ever called you a 'whacko' ? (Reason, are u noting ?)
in fact, if name calling was a sign of 'hatred' then we 'bigoted christians' are the most hated of all, just count the names. But then, this is not new. Its been going on since the Pharisees claimed Jesus was 'possessed by a demon' and the rabble described him as 'Drunkard and a glutton'.

SCOUT 'denigrating' a faith ? is quite different from critical scrutiny. "Your faith sucks, its rediculous, its stupid"... that is 'denigrating' but analysis of the implications of factual matter is not 'denigrating'.

ROB..

Mohamed = 'founder of a faith'
Jesus = 'founder of a faith' (though He is so much more than that)

compare apples with apples.

No one is in denial about the 'brutality' of the Old Testament, we simply point out that these were specific acts of divine judgement, not any commandment to treat people in that way generally. You would need to
a) Understand Tribal life and the 'kill or be killed' world of the day and
b) All the facts from the Biblical text,

to fully appreciate those events.

You may respond with 'same applies to the time of Mohamed ? Well, it doesn't because Christ brought the living word to the world and until 'Politicans' took it as a tool of control, never was a violent thing done, except TO Christians. So, if ones message is powerful enough, no army is needed to spread it. It is not a double standard mate.

and by the way, I doubt that even Kactuz holds any hate in his heart towards Muslims or Irf or F.H. Not sure about Skid.
I surely don't even after being called a 'Loony,Auschwitz guard, AlQaeda, spewing hatred' (and that from a 2.5 line post)(bless u Irf :)

BD, how about writing an article for publication here dealing with some of these issues so that there is a valid forum to discuss them.

You could cover
- why the massacres in the OT were justified (killing of children, animals etc)
- how the instruction to stone rude children to death was a one off judgement and not a command
- why the Jesus of the New Testament has nothing to do with the God of the Old Testament or is not accountable for the actions of that God. I'm guessing that you will see this issue differently but hopefully you understand what I'm getting at.
- why some of the commands of the new testament are not relevant today (women covering their heads when they pray etc)
- why the christain God and faith cannot be held accountable for atrocities and abuses committed by adherants of that faith. War, child abuse etc.

Please ensure that does not look like a cop out to the rest of us and is consistant with the approach taken to muslim history and teaching by christian posters to this site.

I would be interested in seeing a credible consistant explanation of the above. I'm guessing that a number of other's would be interested to see it as well.

Maybe then we could actually spend some time on other threads talking about the issue raised in the article.
R0bert

G'day Boaz,
I briefly define my position in relation to the religions-
Each religion has a high level of 'cultural' attachment. To be of Arabic descent, for example, would statistically be more likely to make one able to coprehend & be comfortable with Islam, as I, as an Anglo, have a greater understanding of the christian bible. Familiarity breeds understanding - I argue with those that use 'out of context' quotes from any religious writings. Intrinsically a poor argument.
I think John Saffran chose cathlocism in the end, although this may only be due to Father Bob. If I was to to choose a well-known god to worship, it would probably be the Hindu god Krshna. I'm a Humanist by choice.
The participants in this thread have quite successfully melded religious argument with the race argument. This should not be the case.

Well,it will continue to be a heated debate.One of my son's best friends is Christian Lebanese.We introduced him to surfing a few years ago and he loves it.On the other side of the coin we have these Middle Eastern gangs who are mostly Muslim who rampage our city with almost impunity spewing for hate,bile and violence upon any skippy they can find.Just yesterday we heard of life savers at Cronulla being viciously attacked for no reason.This is happening on a daily occasion in Sydney and in the main,goes unreported because police don't have the numbers to cope with it.Both my children and myself have had direct experiences or observed this intimidation on many occasions.To say it is confined to a minority is to distort the facts.Go to places like Auburn or Bankstown and the hate filled environment makes you afraid to walk down the streets.

The Muslim community is not facing up to it,nor is our NSW state Govt.I have yet to hear one Muslim leader say they will back our Federal Govt policy on terrorists or even assist in their capture.All we hear how Muslims are constantly being made the victims by racist Anglos.Has it occurred to Muslims that their isolationist attitudes and general aggression is contributing to this?

It is a two way street.Muslims in my view have made almost no attempts to intergate.Either change your attitudes or face more calls to end Muslim immigration.Call it racist if you like,but it is more akin to religionism.

France is stuffed.I don't see a peaceful solution.If they give 8 million Muslims more social security ,it will destroy their ecconomy.John howard suggests IR reform so everyone bar the aristocracy will have to work harder for less.This could cause even more problems.More people competing over fewer resources and jobs with China and India doing the manufacturing.

Wouldn't it have been better not to have caused the problem in the first place?

I have tried to stay out of this particular thread, as my mother taught me that if I couldn't say anything nice, I should say nothing.

Sorry mum.

Mr Stone is an archetypal rabble-rouser, conflating concepts of religion and nationhood in the classic "ethnic cleansing" manner. His approach - the semi-intellectual references to mediaeval history, his sneers at more liberal opponents and the emotional but superficial comparisons with incidents in other countries - is oratory designed to inflame the less intelligent masses to the cause.

I find his approach dishonest, his attitude despicable, and his ends nefarious.

There is absolutely not the remotest possibility that Australia will become an Islamic state. By holding this up as some kind of "ghost of Christmas yet to come", and using apocalyptic images to do so, Stone is trying to reach the basest and most ignoble instincts in our nature.

If he succeeds, more fool us. We should have grown out of such visceral responses to such blatant emotionalism back in the schoolyard.

Coach,

No dramas, answering your questions:

1. For us to accept other people and creatures and to honour people of the book is not ‘charity’ but it is a condition to be a Muslim (2:61-69, 284-286).

2. Majority of Muslims read the bible: I studied it through the Bible society of Egypt since I went to Catholic school (refer to many threads I had with Boaz David).

3. The bible, The Torah and the Quran enforces the commandments and the Mosaic law. The Quran claims to be a confirmation of the previous Holy books and not a ‘new religion’. The history of the bible show 60+ gospels existed at a point in time.

4. The central message of the Holy books is about the commandments. The only inconsistency enforced by Catholicism is about the divinity of Jesus and the original sin. These are imposed theories (325AD-386AD). Islam position (622AD) was similar to early followers of Christianity (before Catholicism). Please research Pope Honorius (648AD) writings to see how much Islam and early Christians had in common.

5. Jesus (PBUH) was mentioned in the Quran 33 times (Mohamed PBUH only 4). The only woman mentioned by name in the Quran is Virgin Mary ( a whole chapter by her name). Meaning: Jesus is a prophet of Islam, he was glorified in the Quran than all gospels and the number of his miracles in the Quran exceeds what was mentioned in all gospels combined (incl. Gospel of Barnabos).
Yet, there is no substance anywhere for us to toy with the first commandment.
That is simply an average Muslim logical position.

Tennyson,

You forget that today Muslims were, many centuries ago Christians as well and Arabs (now less that 15% of Muslims) were pre-dominantly Christians (many still are).
Faith, belief and truth are personal choices and people can go whichever way they like. What matters, is intent and good deeds which should not be exclusive to any religion or non-religion.

Boaz,

Minor correction: Mohamed (PBUH) = founder of faith but it is Paul not Jesus (PBUH) that is the founder of Christian faith.

Peace,

Redneck: John Stone cannot answer my question because his argument is non-sequitur. On other words,his conclusion does not follow from his premises. It cannot be argued successfully or fairly that a few British Muslim homeboys represent the behaviour of the entire London Muslim community.

Your opinion slips into plain nonsense. First Redneck you can't even tell the difference between an ostensible statement re: "the elephant" and a systematic proposition re: Stone's claim that the London bombings show that multi-culturalism isn't working. (Just as a point of interest: there are those who argue that even ostensible statements are really propositions that can be examined and refuted. But there is no need for that here because your analogy does not rest on shared properties.

Also you mention that the terrorists were "homeboys". Using your logic that would have to mean that homeboys will be excluded from your ideal utopia? That must also mean that for you the crimes of Australian homeboys represent the aspirations of all Christians.

Australian culture usually works on the idea of fair go and that people are innocent until shown to be otherwise. You cannot offer a sound argument that multiculturalism is a failure because of the actions of a few Christian or Muslim fanatics.

I think it is a tactic of the Nationals to keep this negative stereotyping of good Muslim folk foregrounded on cultural grounds so that the real issues that cause disharmony in this world - such as the actions and callousness of the Coalition of Killers and terrorists isn't examined more closely. Blame the behaviour on some sort of inate Muslim characteristic so that the circumstances that lead people to take up arms is not examined.

Davo (and Redneck), you must be a full on commos. You'd have us all wearing black PJs and being force fed Doc. Jim Saleam and John Stone's propaganda.

If you didn't have such racist view of things, you could see that individuals and groups have cultures and behaviours that have nothing to do with their ethnicity. (Market days).

Irfan, you're yelling racist again.

On your blog you wrote......

http://madhabirfy.blogspot.com/2005_11_15_madhabirfy_archive.html

Basically you praise the Turks for being more with it than Lebanese or Arabs.

After breaking bread with Turks in Germany and Oz and with Lebs over here I believe what you wrote. I think the Turks are much more with it. I think that you've come to these conclusions from personal experience and though anecdotal I think you're right.

However when others speak of their experiences that portray mossies in negative light then it's racism.

If John Howard or Piers Akerman said the what you wrote it'd be racism.

CARNIFEX, it seems you did not understand what I actually wrote in my blog. I wrote it in fairly simple English. If you like, I can provide you with some contacts for ESL classes.

Fellow_Human,

Thank you for taking the time and attempting to answer my 5 points. At least you didn’t run for cover like others did. I admire that.

What I really wanted to read was what You think and not some standard answers from a ‘how to answer infidels and unbelievers’ manual. Maybe you should now look for an ‘above average’ Muslim logical position.

You didn’t give me anything to chew on. So I won’t waste my time and the other readers with details. I’d rather invite them to be the judges.
My five questions still stand. You have confirmed to me ounce again that there is nothing to debate.

The reality is that islam is a different religion to the Judaeo-Christian faith from beginning to end. You admit it yourself…I quote from your own words: “The only inconsistency enforced by Catholicism is about the divinity of Jesus and the original sin”. (I take it Catholicism to you means also Christianity).

I rest my case.

Coach,

I am aware of the standard answers on the internet and its quiet shameful for me that some Muslims use these tactics in dialogue or debate. But I can confirm to you that they are ‘well funded minority’ as Irfan pointed out and if it is any consolation, they use the same tactics with me and other Muslims as well.

We do not see our faith that different from Judaism or Christianity since Islam enforces belief in the Torah and the Bible. We share the commandments with the Jewish faith and share belief in Jesus and Virgin Mary (PBUT) with the Christian faith..

Goodness of the heart is not related to which religion people practice (or non religion for that matter).

Carnifex,

You chose to judge all Muslims based on a bunch of bad examples you met in certain groups of people and cultures (they kept these bad practices in their own countries as well).

When I came to Australia all I could read on the news was crime by vietnamese gangs and the Cabramatta stories. I had to make a choice and 9 years later some of my most trusted friends and hardest working people on my team are vietnamese.

Prejudism, fear and hate are choices. You will always find what confirms them.

Peace and all the best,

Fellow-Human, I wish you all the best of summer time and the ensuing New Year.

I am also aware of the rhetoric proffered by some Muslims and agree they are in the minority. They remind of the practised answers given by J.W.'s and Scientologists when they come a' knockin' on my door.

I will, in my own atheist way, be praying for greater tolerance, understanding, compassion, empathy and the ability to have a good laugh with each other.

Give your pets a pat from me.

:o)

Coach the bible clearly states that true believers can not be killed be snakes venom. Some US churches even use snakes in their Sunday worship anybody who gets bitten and gets sick is thrown out because they must not true believers. Do you handle snakes? The point of this story is that Islam is just like every other faith people make of it what they will. There are many hard-line Christian groups that have more in common with hard-line Muslim or Jewish groups then main stream Christians or Muslims for that matter the 30,000 different Christian Sect demonstrate that Christianity is not as cut and dry as you believe and nor is Islam. But the real point is you should take each person on their merits not judge them on where they come from, what colour they are or who the pray to.

Kenny,

Thanks for coming to the defence of yet another victim of racism. I am not so sure you followed the thread here. But I commend your arrogance – as an atheist – for budging in anyway.

My problem with muslims is nor what you describe at all. It’s not where they come from that worries me it’s where they are going after they die. A concept you won’t comprehend of course.

You see islam is not your ‘run of the mill just another religion’ thing. Take the blinkers off and you might see.

And I wonder when the time will come for you to surrender to it on what ground will you stand to defend yourself? Because for whatever rationale you may have concocted in your mind for deciding not to believe in God wont wash with them.

P.S. I liked the snake argument. Funny

OFF TOPIC...apologies.

Response to Robert Part 1of3

Dear Rob
thanx for that challenge, I’ll do my best. I can’t write an article, as I would have to pay the joining fee, and I can’t afford it at the moment.

1/ “MASSACRES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT”
You will first have to clear your mind of a ‘pre-determined moral evaluation’ In other words, if you don’t want my response to sound like ‘a cop out or spin’ you will have to allow for the possibility that Almighty God DID allow or command the destruction of whole peoples. If there are NO circumstances where you could accept this, no amount of careful explanation will prevail.

My position is:
a/ God DID in fact command/direct the destruction of 2 whole peoples. (Amalekites/Midianites)
God, did destroy most of Humanity in the flood.

b/ God is “just” and loving, and most of all ‘Sovereign’. (Old Testament and New)
This Link gives a good discussion of the subject: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/genocide.html

The link covers each specific case of ‘Genocide’ and I recommend you read it first.

Deuteronomy 9:1-6, "It is NOT because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations." <= this is part of the key.

2/ IS GOD ACCOUNTABLE/RESPONSIBLE FOR EVIL ACTS BY “CHRISTIANS”

Rob, this appears to be a recurring theme in your posts, (once you get stirred up :)
and the answer is still the same.

Christ [teaching and example]

Anyone who behaves OUTside those parameters either is a very disobedient and sinful Christian or is not a Christian. It is not GOD’s fault, we were given free wills and choice. Feel free to blame and accuse people who do wrong in Christs name, and hold them accountable to Christ’s life and teaching. But NEVER blame the teacher for the students rejection of his teaching. You cannot also blame the author of a text book which contains all needed information, clearly presented, for a students failure in an exam.

Can it be clearer than this ?

Response to Robert Part 2

again.. APOLOGIES.. OFF TOPIC.. (All ignore me if you like except Rob :)

MOSAIC LAW and TODAY (GENTILES)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=15&version=31

Rob, I draw your attention to the decision of the ‘first’ Christian Council, attended by the Apostles themselves, and you can review their judgment on the matter. Then, you can argue with Paul and Peter :) I won’t say what they decided- you can see it and assess it yourself.
Some things to consider.

1/ What was the function/reason for the “Law”
2/ What aspects of the Law related to Israelite social/theocratic life, and which related for all time to the ‘covenant’ relationship with God ?

COVENANT
Means by which God fearing people can express their obedience to God ie. the 10 commandments. (for all time, BUT see below)

The ‘Intention’ of the LAW/ 10 commandments. = “Relationship with God, and secondarily, our relationship with our fellow people BASED ON the relationship with God”

Assuming you have now read the relevant portion of Scripture, let me add something about the concept explained by God to Jeremiah. (which is why the Apostles decided as they did in the link above.)
Ch 31
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a NEW covenant
with the house of Israel
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
This, is fulfilled in Christ. “and I tell you, you must be born again” (Jesus)

4/ HEAD COVERINGS ETC FOR WOMEN RELEVANT FOR TODAY ?
My view is that they are relevant, but not crucial. Cultural context of the original was the dionysius cult, but I find no problem with a symbolic head covering during worship, its even nice.
We don’t practice it as a ‘rule’ in our fellowship some ladies cover their heads. (while a few other younger ones display their mid-rifs :)

Scout we got a new kitty “Pepper”

BD, thanks for the detailed response and also for the tone of your post on the "When our religion belonged to us" thread. I would really like to see an end to the consistant attempts by some to argue theology and church/muslim history so that we can get on with working out how to deal with some of the other issues before us,
- those gangs in Sydney (By the way someone I know was bashed and robbed in Brisbane over the weekend and from what I saw in the paper today another guy was killed in similar circumstances and so far there does not appear to be a muslim connection).
- the risk of home grown terrorism
- people living in our community who are
o not being allowed to integrate
o or unwilling to integrate
o or don't know how to integrate

I was not aware that it would cost to submit an article. I was hoping that there was a way we could get some of this stuff on topic and open to discussion. What you put in your reply was close enough to what I had seen before and what we've been over occasionally that there were no new insights. Maybe other posters could have cast some of this in a different light. Why not write the article and see what happens.

Anyway please keep up being nice to FH and others and see if we can turn the tone of some of these discussions around. Otherwise I'll be tossing spitballs from my place at the back of the class next to Scout. From an outsiders perspective my view of the christian church is getting even more jaded by the approach taken by the most obvious christain posters on any topic muslim (and a few other topics).

I hope your Christmas is special for you.

R0bert

Yes, I would like to wish everyone here a very good Christmas, a happy Hanukah, Selamat Hari Raya and everything else.

Coach,
First, I’ll declare that I am a non-practicing, Christian-raised person. So I think you can forget the personal attack.

You wrote to Kenny “But I commend your arrogance – as an atheist – for budging in anyway.”

As a practicing Christian, I believe you owe an apology to Kenny for this slight. Isn’t it part of the Christian way to be kind and humble? Isn’t it part of the Christian way to be pleasant, even when faced with ridicule?

As far as I could see Kenny was in no way being unkind, however, if he was, shouldn’t your response have been more tolerant and patient? At the very least we see this from BD, who I think most know I heartily disagree with. So, I think it safe to say that you are the one being arrogant. Fine example of a Christian, wouldn’t most agree?

As to your assertion that Islam is a “different religion to the Judaeo-Christian faith from beginning to end”, I think you need to have a closer look at history and the writings. You may not believe they represent a true belief but that they are closely related in history and source is undeniable. I would think it is perhaps again your arrogance that drives your thoughts.

F_H,
Just a question (not sure I have asked before) – are you OK with the fact that I choose not to believe in Islam (much like I choose not to hold a great deal of faith in Christ I admit)? And secondly, in your ‘perfect world’ if this was the case, am I held to be any less for this? Please accept that I am trying to place my self in regards to many religions, not trying to be offensive, as I’m sure you would guess.

Dear Reason,

I don’t have a problem with anyone not believing in Islam. My best friends in Egypt where I grew up and in Sydney are a variety of beliefs.

On my team, I have 2 Vietnamese, 3 Hindus, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 agnostic, 1 hardcore atheist (sorry Rick!) and many unclassified.

Islam wise, God states in the Quran that the wisdom of being created different is to get to know each other ‘letaarafu’. I can dig enough material from my own faith to support my view but the thing is I believe people are really good or bad. Religion like anything else will bring what they have inside. I knew a young, beautiful, wealthy English doctor who left everything in England and moved to help children camps in Latin America (she is an atheist) and she has been there for the last 15 years. The relation between goodness of the heart and religion in my view sounds like relating a fish to a bicycle.

My perfect world is hot weather by the beach, wind-surfing, meditating, dolphins, friendly smiling faces of all colours, beliefs and languages, probably a Harley or a 65 White Mustang (I am 40 next week and my wife is wondering about my midlife adventure).

Merry Christmas and on topic to sti Boaz:

I was re-reading Jesus (PBUH) story in the Quran and it states he was born in a dates season (ie mostly October/ early November in Palestine/ Egypt) where did the 25th December come from?
Answers time BD:-)

Reason,

Thanks for your remarks. May I remind you and the other readers that we are at war with a reckless aggressor? Fighting back with pillows and velvet hammers is not ‘Reasonable’. Only the truth will set us (and them) free.

I do not owe an apology for calling it as it is. After all this is OLO. The Lord Jesus himself condemned the Religious law keepers and the Pharisees of his time. And Paul said: I am not ashamed of the gospel..."

You could be forgiven for mistaking “love” with “kindness”. God so loved the world that he gave his son to die for us – he was not being kind because he loved us so much.

You descrine yourself:“I am a non-practicing, Christian-raised person”. With all due respect what does that make you? An observer, a spectator? The voice of ‘Reason’? When it comes to the crunch where will you stand?

Stating facts is not being arrogant.

I stand by what I stated re: islam being completely alien to Christianity. There is no relation whatever... (unlike what they want you to believe). Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger. This is not my fault blame God.

God revealed himself to his people (the Israelites) in the Old Testament and had a covenant with them.
He made a new covenant to humanity at large in the New Testament in the person of His Son Jesus The Christ (whom we are celebrating his birthday soon). Making the old covenant obsolete.

When Jesus died on the cross at the end of his mission he said:"it is finished”. He did not say “to be continued…”

Where do you see that in islam? Sorry mate – you lose.

>>Sorry mate – you lose<<

Coach, I'm only surprised you didn't add "So Nyaaah!" Very childish.

>>May I remind you and the other readers that we are at war with a reckless aggressor?<<

Exactly who is this aggressor? I can only assume you mean the entire world of Islam, which is, in my view, a dangerous fantasy.

In the same way as were his soul brothers in the Europe of the 'thirties, John Stone is part of a team dedicated to focussing your hatred on a common "enemy", with arguments designed to tap into our deepest fears. There are many historical parallels, where intelligent people use their intellect to play upon our darkest nightmares, and paint a particular "other" as the demon to be fought, the devil incarnate, the devourer of children etc. etc. ad naus.

Much of this thread has been taken up with "Christians vs Muslims". The truth is, it doesn't really matter who "wins" the argument, only that hatred has been sufficiently stirred up for you to be manipulated and twisted by people with a vested interest in the conflict.

I've seen urban disorder - first hand - before, including Paris 1968 and Brixton 1981, and I recognize the tactics of the manipulators. But until and unless we wake up to the way in which we are being used by politicians and the media as dumb cannon-fodder, the problems underneath will remain unaddressed and unsolved.

the coaches of yesterday wrote "the protocols of the learned elders of zion". today they write the protocols of the learned mullahs of iran or iraq or afghanistan or wherever. not much has changed. paranoia is just as irrational as it was before.

What you say is part true, but it does not answer the question, why and who for what reason forced this predicament onto others. What is breaking out in Sydney is not aggression of others forced by politics, exact opposite. It is a concept learnt and the basic humane survival instinct, when our supposed political power elites and Looters have set the pace. People will clean up the mess. To engage a racial argument for the sake is not relevant at any point, it is the exact nature in the roll: is the reverse as you explain it Pericles. Australians are not the aggressors in this fraud; we are the victims of Occupation. But be sure the inevitable consequences will be dia for the aggressors and the politics that made this point in time possible.Have you served within the defence force Pericles? War is not nice, but dieing is worse.
On other threads, your Ideals are not the same: Turn Holy lands to glass?

Coach,

Can you tell the difference whether the following quotes are from the Bible or the Quran?:

"Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us... and what was revealed to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."' (3: 84).

"Behold! The angels said: 'O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the hereafter and of (the company of) those Nearest to God."' (3:45)

"Behold! God said: 'O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to myself."' (3:55). Jesus did not die, but all apostles and prophets did."We gave him the Bible in which was guidance and light." (3:46)

"O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount my favor to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel." (3:113)

Jesus says: "And He hath made me blessed wherever I be. The son of Mary, with no father, lived in chastity (Mary:30-31)

."We gave him the Bible in which was guidance and light." (3:46)

"We bestowed favor upon him, and we made him an example for the Children of Israel." (Zukhruf:59).

Jesus "Say: 'O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Apostle of God, to whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in God and His Apostle, the unlettered Prophet (MohamedPBUH), who believeth in God and His Words: Follow him that (so) ye may be guided."' (Alaraf:158).

Its the Quran. Do you still believe we are 'totally different'?

Peace brothers,

Fellow_Human

Best wishes for your BIG 40 next week! I can honestly say that from my experience that life after 40 is fantastic. I hope it is for you!

Maybe you will wear a head scarf on your Harley!? That would look so funny - oh well, what about a bandana?

Happy Birthday and as you say: Peace.

Cheers
Kay

Fellow_Human, You again,

OK since it is your birthday, I have a little test for you:

Islam is a religion of peace,right? and that your prophet came to improve on Jesus' teaching

Let's examine some of Muhammad's teachings versus Jesus Christ

Jesus said:” By their fruit you shall know them” speaking of any prophet that might come after him (Matt. 7:16)

1. Muhammad owned weapons, and he nicknames himself "the obliterator." Christ never owned weapons because he never waged war on anyone.

2. In (Sura 24:2) Muhammad commands that adulterers receive a hundred lashes. In (John 8:1-11)Christ forgave the sins of the adulteress and he told her to go and sin no more.

3. Muhammad permits husbands to beat their wives (Sura 4:34). Christ taught respect and love for one another.

4. Muhammad commands that the hands of thieves be cut off (Sura 5:38). Christ created the human beings therefore he knew that the body is precious and should not be mutilated.

5. Muhammad commands death or the cutting off of hands and feet of rebels (Sura 5:33). Christ 'the Prince of Peace’ died for all the rebels of the world.

6. Muhammad marries many times even with a little infant, Aisha. Christ never did or taught this.

7. Muhammad in his Qur’an promises sensuous, "virgin-rich paradise gardens" for Jihad martyrs (Suras 61:10-12, 9:111). Christ's died on the cross on our behalf; thus he guaranteed heaven for those who trust in him.

8. Muhammad hated the Jews; he killed them, plunder their lands and enslaves their women and children. (Sura 33:25-27). Christ was a Jew himself. He never slaughter anyone.

Christians know prophets by their fruit. Clearly Muhammad fails the fruit test. Therefore does not improve the teachings of Christ the Son of God and cannot by a long shot complement the sequel of the Bible.

Actions speak louder than words. Sorry man I cannot accommodate you anymore. If you want to continue to follow your religion fine; but if you are serious about the truth read (ikra') the Bible - the stakes are too high.

Robert Challenge Part 3 of 3

STONING OF CHILDREN.

Some points.

1/ What....is a child ? if I’m not wrong, a Jew is a ‘child’ until around 30 yrs of age.

2/ How ‘bad’ would a child have to be before parents would give up on him and inform the elders of the community about it ?
3/ Most parents love their children.
4/ The Elders of the community would know if the child/youth’s behavior is related to bad parenting.
5/ I highly doubt that a youth would push an elderly man though a plate glass window if he had been warned of the possibility he would be stoned to death by the community if he did it.
(i refer to that incident quite a bit, a 16 yr old was ‘evil incarnate’ at that time, and did this. The only way we could get him off the street was that our youth pastor interacted with him until the offender punched him repeatedly, the pastor did not retaliate, and used the photographic evidence to put the offender away)

For applicability to ‘today’ in Gentile Australia, refer Acts 15 and the Apostolic council in the other post.

CONCLUSION.
It is NEVER easy to put ourselves in the real life situation of the Israelites, or to understand the Laws and the way God dealt with them and mankind. We have inherited a philosophical outlook which always needs to be considered carefully before making sentimental knee jerk emotional responses.

There is NO idea of a “Theocracy” established in the New Testament, apart from on an individual level in our own hearts. Guidelines for corporate Church behavior are very clear, but ‘structures’ are not outlined, apart from the fact that Paul had an ‘Apostolic’ ministry/responsibility to the groups he had evangelized and each group had leaders. Thats it. So, it does not really matter if you have an Anglican or a Presbyterian or a Methodist or Church of Christ tradition, what matters is the living relationship with Christ.

BD, so why don't the kind of excuses you use for your version of God apply to the muslims? You and other christian posters spend most of your posts on these forums bashing seemingly moderate muslims about the excess of others who may/may not share their faith.

Have you any reason to believe that the thugs causing the problems in Sydney are genuine muslims or could it be that they are like kids of christain families brought up in cultures where church attendance is socially enforced. The classic western image is the mafia. Do you want to be responsible for the behavour of the mafia and treated accordingly because many of them have shared the same religion as you? Is there evidence that the members of the Lebanese gangs are in any way active muslims? Do they spend Friday lunch time singing the muslim version of "I surrender" or "He is Lord" then go out and do this stuff on the weekend or is their version of Islam nominal as is the version of christainity that many people of European origin hold?

Get with the reality that muslims are like the rest of us, they have some who take themselves and their religion far too seriously regardless of the cost to the world they live in and the perceptions others hold of their religion. They have some who think about their faith and live it as well as they can, getting some stuff right and some wrong. (Mostly I assume that you are in the latter, sometimes in the former). They have nominal muslims who hold to the cultural values of the faith without really letting it drive their lives. And all sorts of variations in between.

Most will integrate, some will not, that has been the way with every group that came here and I'm guessing that muslims will do a whole lot better that the first european settlers did. Along the way we will be changed but mostly that will be by us picking up some good bits that work for us.

R0bert

Pericles,

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I was busy dealing with real issues.

Is that your idea of speed reading? Picking on my opening and closing lines? Have you read the body of my post to ‘Reason’? Where is your opinion there - instead of criticising my “childish” style?

You fantasise in a previous post: >>There is absolutely not the remotest possibility that Australia will become an Islamic state<<

Please reconsider that statement if you care at all for Australia and the legacy we are leaving to our children.

>> But until and unless we wake up to the way in which we are being used by … the problems underneath will remain unaddressed and unsolved. <<

What in your opinion could be the right approach to solving that problem?

Come back to reality. Let me remind you that this is Australia 2005. I don’t know where you have been since 1981 but maybe you should watch some TV news sometime and get on with the programme.

Love,
Coach

Could all the white and/or christian chauvinists on this forum please provide me with solid evidence that muslims intend doing to 20th century australia what the white settlers did and have been doing to aboriginal culture for the past 200-plus years.

and i mean REAL evidence. not some stupid report about some tabloid journo's disturbed cronulla tan.

Kalweb,

Thanks for your wishes.

Coach,

Apologies I thought you are another Boaz, you turned to be much simpler and plainly mis-informed.
On www.musliminsight.blogspot.com I addressed women rights in Islam and few other points you raised. Mohamed (PBUH) never called himself Obliterator or anything else, I think you are confusing him with Arnold Schwarzenegger the Terminator.

Few points you raised worth addressing:

Point 8: the myth of the Quran/ Islam hates Jews. This is absolute non-sense. The Quran (in our belief is God’s word not Mohamed) blames the Jews for 3 contexts only:

- Not following the mosaic law (ie charging interest to their brothers, working on the Sabbath, etc…)
- Rejecting Jesus (PBUH) and claiming they killed him.
- Accusing Virgin Mary of Adultery
2 Out of 3 reasons is because Jewish people rejected Christianity and 1 for not following their own scripture. Jewish people and tribes always lived peacefully among Muslims.

The points relating to stoning, etc…: this is no different to the Torah and the Mosaic law, it is meant to be a framework for legislation and authority to implement and not individuals. The spirit of the law is not to cut off body parts but to explain that the penalty have to be preventive (harsh enough) and not corrective or mild.

Btw, Jesus confirmed the Mosaic Law in the bible and did not remove it as you claim.

A question for you, why can’t you practice what you preach? Why the “God is love” motto always becomes ‘God is Love you are wrong” or “MY God is Love”?
Is this what they teach you on Sundays?

Fellow_Human - happy birthday my friend. I'd be happy to have you as a neighbour but might change my mind if you get the Harley. 10 or 12 houses away is about close enough if you get up early to go to work or a Saturday morning ride (and from my early morning walks most people who go to work early seem to have very noisy vehicles).

Irfan, can you please explain the context of the comment about the Tabloid Journalist. Are you suggesting the reported bashings did not happen? That is the only context where that comment could be appropriate and given the desire of some of us to calm the tension it seems like a really harmful comment to make without explanation. I have no first hand experience of the reported Lebanese Gangs. My knowledge comes from "Fat Pizza", some media reporting and what is posted on these pages. Are they an urban myth?

If there is any truth to what has been reported about them then they make a significant contribution to the suspicion and tension between muslim and non-muslim in this country. If there is any truth to the stories about the incident at Cabrimatta the posse on the beach should not be BD and friends but rather a large group of Muslims and people of middle eastern origin who don't want this kind of trouble. The loudest voices speaking against the thugs who bashed that reporter recently should be Muslim leaders. Treating any incident of this nature as trivial is feeding the fire and somewhat disgusting. If I've missed comments by you speaking out against such incidents then I apologise, if not it is time to stand and be counted.
- Do you condem the reported actions of the ethnic group at Cabrimata who reported threatened and bashed lifeguards?
- Do you condem the actions of those who bashed a reporter covering the arrest of suspected terrorists?

Again if I have badly misunderstood what you tried to say then I apologise, if not I am very saddened.

R0bert

Robert, I suggest you compare the reporting from the tabloids to the reporting (or lack thereof) from the broadsheets (including The Australian). The tabloids focussed on ethnicity. My comments were directed to some tabloid journos, not to concerned Aussies of any background.

Any attack on surf lifesavers or others involved in saving lives is an incident that needs to be condemned. I am sure everyone here condemns it, including the wackos. But these men don't commit such deeds because they have Middle Eastern appearance. Just as those calling for vigilante action don't do so because they are apparently of anglo-Australian appearance. This is a law and order issue that should be left to the police. 1 person has been arrested, and we have no idea what his ethnicity of religion is.

Irfan. I really would like to get your comments on the issues raised in my posting on your thread "Bridging the cultural gap- in a swimsuit". I posted the issues there because this thread was heavily into point scoring and I did not want to get involved in that.

Nor do I want to get involved in discussions about ancient or contempory religious theology. Current issues are far more relevant.

I read there was to be a conference of young Muslims last weekend and would like to know if any good proposals or ideas came from that.

Irfan,

If you were to take your article and replace Turk with man, Arab and Lebanese with woman, change the subject to emotions no matter how true it was would be construed as sexist.

A Harvard professor got whipped earlier this year because he said that men might be better than women in science. Media frenzy ensues.

Replace them with different races it can be construed as racist.

What do Arab and Lebanese mossies think of your article?

I’m not criticizing what you wrote, in my experience Turks are more with it than the others.

Regarding ESL classes, I’m bi-lingual, I wouldn’t mind brushing up on my German though, the Austrian accents on Inspector Rex just don’t cut it, they sound like Hitler.

I’m not making personal insults against you, it’s your ideology I question.

I used to argue with old and young nazis when I lived in Germany they rarely got as uptight as you when I insulted their prophet. Even skinheads could listen.

Perhaps I’ve insulted you via your prophet. The first time that I was ever told of him being a murderous paedophile was from an Iranian Muslim woman I met in Germany. The Turkish and Bosnian Muslim women that I worked with and befriended in Germany also said the same thing. As did the two gorgeous Turkish women I befriended when I returned to Australia. Up until then I believed that he was not a bad bloke, it was just his some of his followers that were a bit off colour. They also had numerous other interesting tales to tell.

To them, as women, Islam sucked.

Fellow Human.

I say such because the overwhelming majority of bad experiences came directly from dealing with Middle Eastern Muslim males. It was so completely in your face and impossible to ignore. Pre September 11 without any assistance from the media I saw young university educated lefty work mates turn into rednecks in weeks.

Thanks to my wonderful mossie lady friends mentioned above who gave me tips on dealing with mossie men, they helped defuse most incidents.

Frohe Weinnacht everybody

Irfan, I'm kind of in agreement with you re the gangs thing being a police issue but also wondering if that might inflame things more. I'll try and spell out my guesses about the gangs based on what I've heard and read and some generalised thinking - I may be very wrong.

- A gang or gangs exist in the Sydney area comprised of mostly young guys whose parents came from the middle east, probably Lebanon.
- They grew up with families who mostly socialised with others of similar ethnic and religious origin.
- As kids they were isolated from the broader community due to
o Cultural differences
o Religious difference
o Language difference
o Racism of the two way variety. Some european aussies don't like them and they don't like skippies.
- No acceptance of the idea of multiculturalism where it relates to cultures different to their own.
- Part of a broader group which feels picked on and hard done by.
- Probably not much interest in the spiritual aspects of the Islamic faith but retaining some of the cultural identity stuff.

I suspect that the police dealing with the issues only increases the sense of being picked on (right or wrong).

There are aspects of multiculturalism which I'm not confident that we have worked out how to deal with (although I think it works well in most cases). Ethnic gangs are one of the problem areas.
How best do we stop them without creating new problems.

Multiculturalism has both freedom and responsibility. It allows the freedom for people to practice aspects of their culture which are not in contravention of Australian law. It also carries with it as responsibility to allow others to do the same regardless of how the individual feels about the choice.

R0bert

This is the last post I am writing on this topic. Robert, most Arab and Lebanese Australians are from Christian backgrounds. Most of the Lebanese gang leaders inside and outside of jail are of Christian backgrounds. When we speak of people of Middle Eastern background, inevitably the finger will be pointed at Coptics and Maronites and Orthodox and other Christian groups.

Anyway, I hope everyone has an excellent Christmas.

IRF 'cut and run ?' sorry won't do, you made a serious allegation, and I hope you can back it up with solid evidence as you seem to like.
Make sure also your 'evidence' is tracable to sources.
Thanx

Michael Kanaan triple murder, in Jail(The only 'Christian' name I can find)

Ziad Abdulrazak (Murdered in Greenacre shooting)
Ali Abdulrazak (Murdered outside Lakemba Mosque)
Saleh Jamal (Lakemba Police Station drive by - In jail in Lebanon)
Wassim Al Asaad (Lakemba Police Station drive by)
Bilal Skaf (rape, Pakistani)
Mohammed Skaf (rape, Pakistani)
Mohammed Dib (Murderer of Edward Lee) Telopea St boys
Moustapha Dib (same) Telopea st boys.

All Muslims except Kanaan.

If you know of any others Ifran. please list them, I'm as interested as anyone. The impression clearly created by Tim Priests 'inside information/ on the spot experience as a frontline policeman clearly implicates the "Muslim Males of Telopea st" (and their associates) as the main perpetrators of ethnic Lebanese crime. Priest also observed that among Christian Lebanese, such crimes were noticably absent.

Apart from this, it does not matter whether the males of 'Middle Eastern appearance' were of traditional Christian background or Islamic , if they acted as reported, they deserve everything they get under the Law. People who call themselves Christian, are just that..'called' Christian, they cannot know the Lord as a personal reality in their lives

Irfan, I'm going to try and draw you back into the discussion. If you look through my posts hopefully you will see that I am not a muslim basher. I am an agnostic australian born with a strong concern for a fair go all round. Most of my posts on the topic are probably on the pro-muslim side of the discussions because the attacks on muslims on so many of these threads seem particularly unreasonable.

My comments and questions are a legitimate attempt to understand this issue. Your most recent post is the first time I have seen any suggestion that the gangs in question may not be from a muslim background. My next comment is unfortunately going to sound like the voice of the opposition (and that scares me) but your responses so far have seemed evasive to me.

If the gangs are not from muslim backgrounds proof of that could make a massive difference to the opinions of those who are currently concerned but not convinced. If on the other hand you are ducking for cover that sends a very different message.

Please confront this issue openly and frankly, if there are sources we can look at which back up your claim then tell us what they are. Think of the fun some of us will be able to have posting calls for the halting of christain immigration because of the actions of these gangs (kidding BD).

Tossing in a claim like that with no backup and announcing that you will not post again on the topic is harmfull.

R0bert

RObert

Well said!

Listen Irf!

Kay

I could name at least 10 prominent Lebanese & Arab Christian crime figures in jail. But what would that show? What would it prove?

Further, a report from the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics released in 1994 shows that gang-rape is more common in Maitland than Bankstown. Perhaps B-D could point us to the mosques and substantial Muslim groups in Maitland.

Are we also aware of the fact that more than half of all persons in jail suffer from psychiatric illnesses? Does that mean we demonise persons with depression, schizophrenia or other such people, whether their illness is induced by deliberate drug use or not?

This discussion is going nowhere because there are people on this forum who are determined to hate Muslims. I cannot control what is in people's hearts, regardless of what facts I show. Seriously, if Jesus returned and declared himself a Muslim, some people here would reject him and want him expelled from the country.

By the way, B-D, the Skaf boys are about as Pakistani as Ariel Sharon is Palestinian. Or as you are Catholic.

Anyway, I have to go to sleep. Real life keeps me busy. Which is more than what I can say about some of the lunatic fringe that congregate here.

Robert,

"proof of that could make a massive difference to the opinions"
"If on the other hand you are ducking for cover that sends a very different message."

"Tossing in a claim like that with no backup" ... "is harmfull."

I tried to tell u that robert ...back when FH made up a Bosnian war atroicity
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856

But, it's great to see you change your mind on honisty and I'm glad to see you ask some questions!

Ifran,
"and i mean REAL evidence. not some stupid report about some tabloid journo's disturbed cronulla tan.
Posted by Irfan, Friday, 9 December 2005 4:22:11 PM"

Are quotes from islamic rapists in a court of law REAL enough?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gang-rapist-claims-right-to-assault/2005/12/09/1134086806845.html

Irfan

"Lunatic fringe". What an offensive call.

I have had some 25 years of mental health nursing. Your use of the term "lunatic" is offensive to all people who have mental health problems.

Since there are around one in five people who may have, or are likely to have mental health problems - I wonder how your family would like the term "lunatic"?

Kay

>>Seriously, if Jesus returned and declared himself a Muslim, some people here would reject him and want him expelled from the country<<.

Now now Irf, doesn't your religion say that Jesus will just do that When (not if) He comes back. He will marry a muslim and declare eating pork "haram"? Among other fantasies...

Admit it mate your religion is the cause of hatred in the world. Your religion cannot assimilate anywhere by peaceful means.

Having said that what we saw in the last 24 hours in Sydney is Gang Territorial Anarchism Australian-style which has been evident for many years not to be confused with the religious issue. A good example is Macquarie Fields.

Unfortunately the average Australian still doesn't have a clue about the real threat of Islam to their cultural way of life.

And please when you do get a clue could someone please inform the chief of the NSW police because he went public today saying:" if
I knew the cause of the problem I'll find a solution..."

I wonder how many of the racist posters on this site were in that ugly mod at the beach the other day?
Hitler could work up a logical reason to kill all Jews and it seems some are trying to do the same for Muslims. What suggest these racists do is read what Hitler said about Jews and see the parroting of those ideas in their own and maybe they might wake up to themselves but I'm not holding my breath. One reason is I believe some of the posters would have joined the SS. It would be fitting if the new terror laws were used on these racist scum.

Why is it that Christians believe OBL is a Islamic fighter but say Joseph Kony isn't a Christian one?

meredith, you continue to make the assumption that because I saw FH's comment in a different light to you that I wander around with my eye's closed and that I don't value truth. Both are very wrong.

I've asked FH questions before when I was been concerned by something he said on his blog. I recieved a polite simple explaination that satisfied my concerns.

FH's comments re the attrocity in Bosnia was quite different to Irfan comments about the Sydney gangs.
- From my recollection FH's claim was made in response to a round of "your religion is more barbaric than mine" with Numbat being the previous player. I think FH cheated because the category was apparently christian attrocities in Australia and FH came back with an alleged incident from Bosnia. He lost 5 points for that. He is an inexperienced player and generally is smart enough to stay out of the game.
- FH's claim did not substantially alter the context of the discussion. There are a lot of documented atrocities from Bosnia in that period with muslims being on the recieving end of plenty of them. I have seen no other suggestions that the sydney gangs are from the lebanese christian ethnic grouping and the claim is in direct contradiction to what I have heard.
- I think FH believed what he was saying. As I've previously stated I have not seen proof of the incident and have put it in the I don't know basket. I have no reason to assume that FH did not see media reports about such an incident in Egypt.

Now I've asked some hard questions of Irfan maybe you could try asking some tough questions of the anti-muslim lobby. You could start by looking at the impact of continual refusal to allow integration on the ability of others to integrate. Over to you.

R0bert

I blame the media/politicians for all of this "beach brawling". They created the perception that terrorism in Australia was apparent and that our democracy was at stake. This was never apparent; an article in the West Australian several weeks ago talked about Muslim Terrorist Organizations in Australia. None of this was proven.

After the fear was in instilled into the hearts of the Australian majority, the "anti-terrorism" legislation was placed to further create the fear and controversy. They made Muslims living in Australia an "issue". All the people were so psyched and drunk. They declared patriotism and brutally attacked the Lebanese in Sydney.

And after all of this John Howard continues to deny an issue of racism in Australia. I'm 16, and even I know that racism is synonymous to terrorism. If you create the philosophy that terrorism is apparent in Australia. You're dividing our society into Muslim/non-Muslim, Arab/non-Arab. Terrorism is racism.

How am I to listen to what people are telling me? How do I listen to the media? Who should I believe? What do you want me to do, when patriotic white Australians attack my sister and mother when they're in the supermarket buying groceries? What ever happened to the concepts of multiculturalism in Australia?

We are a democracy aren't we? The moral core of democratic liberalism has three elements; personal liberty, social liberty and civil liberty. For Muslims, it's inevitable that in short time all of these elements of equality will be breached.

Robert

ive had to post my answer up on a fresh link http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3938
as i can't open these overly full threads very easily on my old puter.

Dear M3wa
you are doing the classical "Now I'm a victim" thing. If you are wondering 'who' to believe in regard to the events of the weekend, you should be asking the lebanese gangs who have been harrassing 'non lebanese' Australians on Cronulla beach for the past few years, calling OUR sisters and OUR mothers and OUR daughters.. sluts, tarts, get off 'our' beach, etc etc...
...find them, and ask
-"Why did you hate White Aussies like this ?
-Didn't you expect a reaction ?
-Don't you think its unwise to annoy people who are eventually going to get sick of it ?
-Don't you think you might stir up some racist response to your OWN racism ? etc...

Then, you might also try reading the 'unfolding events' outlined in chronological order in The Age today.

See the Video of the car load of Lebanese who shouted out at the camera "We are going to F*CK your MOTHER".

Just like the Lebanese Civil War began with the murder and mutilation of (wait for this.. then go check it) 4 CHRISTIANS one of whom was the son of a high profile politician.

Just like the attacks on the PLO military camps of Sabra and Shatilla were AFTER the genocide of the Christian village of Damour (do a search) where 16,000 PLO and Syrian, Yemeni,Iranian 'Jihad Warriors' meercilessly hacked women, children etc and slaughtered over 500 people. And the Priest of Damour was urging them to FORGIVE ! I don't hear that message coming from mosques much.

None of the above incidents justifies anything but a Just response from legally constituted Authorities. (sadly they were helpless in Lebanon) The alchohol fuelled madness of last weekend by white Australians was most regrettable and very wrong. They would have been wiser to make a peaceful protest by marching down Telopea Street en masse.. touching no-one.

Finally, you have not 'reverted', you have gone totally astray and are heading for a Christless eternity. I encourage you to turn to Him now, and leave forever the hate,violence and darkness which is Islam.

You seem to want to blame everyone and everything for your predicament. Your parents should have thought about that before coming to this country.

For each action there is a reaction. (not always fair but inevitable)

You said: >> We are a democracy aren't we? The moral core of democratic liberalism has three elements; personal liberty, social liberty and civil liberty.<<

When you will stop blaming the media, alcohol, the colour of skin, racism, multiculturalism, politicians, the neighbour’s dog, etc…etc… start having a good look at your religion.

Democracy is based on Christian principles (research it). Islam has no concept of it and cannot live or exist with democracy.

Islam has no personal liberty
Islam has no social liberty
Islam has no civil liberty

So I ask you: when are you going to grow up and face the world as it is not as you want to make it.

merideth, I'm not going to waste any more posts defending my choice to believe that FH has not deliberately lied about the alleged Bosnian attrocity. At the end of it we all make judgement calls about what we believe based on how it fits with what we already believe, our views on the character of the person, the importance we place on the claim etc. In this case I'm not convinced that the particular attrocity happened but don't think FH deliberately lied. Get over it.

PC is a different issue. I see it as a juggling act. An attempt to find a balance between "calling it as we see it" and having respect for others. Like most things we all follow through in different ways.
I've certainly seen plenty of coverage over the last couple of years suggesting that there were significant issues with predominately Lebanese gangs in Sydney, PC did not stop that discussion. No problem with that as long as the reporting is true and balanced. A very different issue when I see the above turned into "get the Leb" or "there are no moderate muslims" and other such tripe.

Extreme PC is probably an attempt to avoid the latter, a total rejection of PC seems to be an attempt to maintain the freedom to do the latter.

Again we will all make different choices about how PC we want to be. I try and find a middle ground, clearly too extreme for you and not extreme enough for others. Feel free to get over that too.

I'm hoping that this bears some kind of relation to the overall thread, tenuous I admit.

R0bert

Dumb and Dumber
Coach said "Democracy is based on Christian principles (research it). Islam has no concept of it and cannot live or exist with democracy."

This would have to be one of the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Democracy is one of the oldest principles of humanity. While it has been codified in many different ways over the years it the basic idea i.e. governing by conesus is as old as man. Democracy has been practice in many cultures long before Christianity was invented. This rewriting of history that Christian fanatical evangelicals continually try to do is pathetic. Western democracy has evolved over the years and has become more inclusive as Christianity influence over the western world has diminished. Christianity has fought against democracy at just about every step and many denotations still have big problems with it. Many western evangelicals wish to have a Taliban style religious Government where religious rules are enforced by the state. Democratic countries make laws that the majority of people want not what some imaginary supernatural being said to some priest 1900 years ago. Wake up to yourself Coach and have a look in the mirror.

Kenny,

Thanks for the history lesson – for someone who believes that man comes from apes you are evolving rather well into the 'human’species.

I was referring in my post to the first ever example of democratic government in world history established by Moses and first recorded around 1300 B.C. Without that initial model you and I would not have civilisation as we know it today.

Your premature conclusions, unjustified attacks and your pre-conceived mumbo-jumbo about my supposed inferences had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I was merely helping 16 year old "m3wa" above with his quest for integration, belonging and safety in Australia.

So please take your time and re-read carefully before jumping on the keys.

As the French say: the less jam you got the more you spread it.

Boaz,

I noticed coach is another 'Boaz junior wanna be' without the experience and knowledge of Islam or Christianity (judging by his lat two postings).

Can you "coach" coach over Christmas.

PS: when does the "God is love" thingy actually starts and how many hours or minutes does it go for?

Robert,

Meredith among few others posters resort to personal attacks when they run out of logic or debate skill, don't bother.
There is also many Merediths using the same PC because one Meredith strongly disagrees with my opinion and the 'other' Meredith sends me an artcile confirming my view.

Merry Christmas to all the Merediths,

Peace,

Fellow_human 3876

re your corrections 6 Dec.

The Curan (Mohammed) patronises Jesus the Christ. Mohammed was a name dropper, using Jesus' name to Mohammed's advantage.

Without using too many words, it is not possible for Jesus and Mohammed to be on the same side. If Mohammed is not a liar and a fraud then Jesus the Christ is and vise versa.

When the men of Israel were accusing Jesus, the only charge they could make stick was blasphemy (Assumed), and that was when Jesus answered them saying, “Before Abraham was, I AM”. For that saying, Jesus the Christ was crucified. What Jesus meant by what He said was, “I was the God who spoke to Abraham, I am the Prince of Princes, I am about to become the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.”

There is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved, Jesus Christ, the lamb of God, the Daily Sacrifice. The process of salvation involves knowing, not believing. The process of salvation is given in the Hebrew scriptures, such that the men of Israel, at the time of Christ were without excuse. The same can be said today, all are without excuse.

For those entering in there is only one way, doing the will of our father in heaven, which includes utilizing the daily sacrifice, repentance and the acceptance of our repentance by the Lamb of God.

A personal relationship is required with the Lamb of God such that He is able to say, “I know you, because your repentance has been accepted, stand on My right and prepare to be made perfect, in accordance with the prophesy of Jeremiah, before entry into the Kingdom of God”.

It is most likely that our sins existed before we were born. Our sins of this world are nothing more than a reflection of our current sinful status.

GoldBrick

Few issues with your comment:

1. The Quran claims to be a confirmation of the Torah and the Bible. Mohamed PBUH never claimed Islam or Muslims anything more than followers of Mosaic laws, Moses and Jesus. According to historians (Sale, Muir) Mohamed was know to never told a lie or worshipped an idol. Why would a person ‘come up’ with a story at the age of 40 that made him lose everything is beyond my logic. In fact, not only the story of Jesus in the Quran have more miracles than all gospels, it also clear the Jewish people of his blood which according to what they tell you on Sundays “Mohamed hated the Jews” makes another contradiction.
2. There is no advantage Mohamed (PBUH) in the Quran (whether referring to Jesus (PBUH) or any other prophet.
3. You said: “what Jesus meant by what He said was, etc…” .This interpretation came only at the Nicea creed 325AD. In fact, the Trinity was only completed in 386AD because it wasyou didn’t know what to do with the Holy Spirit until then. Early because early Christians did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. Moses parted the sea, Abraham brought dead birds back to life and Ezrah (the Jewish prophet) came back to life after 100 years of death. None of followers of these prophets , nob.

The issue with the first commandment is that it is a crystal clear “God is One”. While Judaism and Islam have a clear stand the Christian faith is sitting on the fence on this commandment.

BTW, what is 3876?

Fellow_Human, you have given me some laughs today. Wisely suggesting I'm wasting my efforts continuing a discussion with merideth then getting into theology debate with coach and goldbrick. There is some irony in that.

I doubt anything I say to merideth will change her mind, likewise with a lot of other posters on the site. I do suspect that for every discussion which goes on here there are plenty who do read those discussions who are willing to consider what is said and how that fits in with the way they see the world. I have some hope that some of my perspectives on these issues might help some willing to consider the issue to see a more balanced picture than they will get from those who see the issues in black and white. They possibly more so than merideth are the reason for some of these posts.

I had noticed the merideth who does not like your views, I think she is the same one who is very upset with me for not thinking that you are telling lies. She may also be the friend who is sending you links that seem to support what you are saying, some people are like that :). As human beings we have an amazing capacity for living with contradictions in our lives, almost impossible to have any balance if we don't. Sometimes those contradictions are the most amazing part.

An author named Robert Fulghum said the following

The line between good and evil, hope and dispair, does not divide the world between "us" and "them." It runs down the middle of every one of us. I do not want to talk about what you understand about this world. I want to know what you will do about it. I do not want to know what you hope. I want to know what you will work for. I do not want your sympathy for the needs of humanity. I want your muscle.

R0bert

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that it is in fact ironic. This is a lesson for me (I also copied Robert Fulghum quote).

In all my contributions, I tried to ensure that I only comment when a mis-understanding or a mis-representation occurs. My response to mis-representation is usually in the form of a logical argument.

It was interesting for me to see how posters and members of OLO are so polarised: most posters who are happy to interact and exchange views and opinions, while a minority charged with self inflicted prejudice and phobia keep resorting to ‘copy&paste’ or personal attacks.

I don’t mind it either way I enjoy a good discussion.

Glad I made you laugh :-)

Fellow_Human, I'm glad you enjoyed the quote. I'm not sure if it's his or taken from somewhere else but good to remember.

Wish there was a way to get some of the fundie's to read (and understand) some of Fulghum's stuff. He is a former christian minister with some great things to say. An ability to look at the irony in life, the joys, the pain and the doubts and come out feeling good about it. If you get a chance to read any of his stuff I'd be interested in knowing how the cultural stuff crosses over - how much of it is based on cultural context and how much is common to all of us? I'm confident that the background ideas are common but suspect that the cultural vehicles may be harder to follow. Any authors from your cultural background (published in english) who write similar stuff that you know of?

Keep the laughs coming and take heart that amongst all the aggression there are plenty of us here who celebrate the opportunity to learn from other cultures, who can look past the difficulties when new people come together and rejoice in the opportunity to get to know people who have had such different lives.

If we don't cross paths before Christmas have a great one (but don't annoy the neighbours with that Harley if it is under the tree).

R0bert

Fellow Human,

When refering to Allah could you please don't call him God.

And when you want to talk about Jesus could you call Him Issa.

And the Holy Spirit could you tell our audience that he is none but the angle gabriel.

We don't want to create more confusion than necessary. After all:

"They do blaspheme who say Allah is one of three in a Trinity, for there is no god except One Alah". Surah 5:73

RObert and FH

What a great quote. What an insightful man. Must keep that for my nieces.

It's good that some of us do not have to attack each other on OLO. Bit sad really when you think about it.

Many of the "oldies" here have spent heaps of time and posts on OLO over the last week condemning (albiet awful and disgusting behaviours of both groups) white Aussie and Middle Eastern young people - yet the "oldies" on OLO can be so verbally aggressive in this forum at times. Sadly hilarious. The concrete thinking cracks me up.

I wish that Christian posters and Muslim posters would stop quoting stuff. We can all read our own Bibles or Q'rans. Why do people feel the need to endlessly quote and provide links?

There is not a poster on OLO who will convert me to anything - except more exercise!

Cheers
Kay

Kay, thanks. I'll plead guily to getting verbally aggressive / defensive here at times. This kind of online discussion is a learning thing for all of us I think, it needs new conventions (or variations on the old ones) and an open community such as this one will mean some very fluid exchanges. People who generally see themselves as allies find themselves on different sides of other discussions. When I feel the need to apply a political label to myself it would normally be "right wing" but in the debates about racial and social cooperation I find that many of the other "right wing" posters are coming from a totally different world view to mine. Interesting and somewhat frightening to see how extreme the views of some are.

Likewise guilty of posting quotes and links at times. I agree with where I think you are coming from, I guess it's another issue where the nature of what is posted reflects on the credibility of the poster. Sometimes it is a way of drawing on resources which show knowledge or insight we wish we has had (the Fulghum quote) at other times a simple means to counter false claims (links to sites listing muslim inventions in response to claims about muslim contributions).

Some of these discussions have been real eye openers for me, they have forced me to think about what I believe and what my responsibilities are. They help me to see the other side of some of these issues (for better or worse).

Thanks for your openness in your posts, sometimes you really wear your heart on your sleeve. Best wishes to you and your husband over the christmas break (are you near last nights fires?) and a great new year to you.

R0bert

Fellow_human

3876 tells me which thread to post this comment.

1.It has always been my understanding that Mohammed's Law or Religion, was BASED ON the Law of Moses or the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures, but BASED ON isn't good enough. BASED ON means doctrines of men (creations of men). Had Mohammed taken the Mosaic Law as given, and kept it, preached it, taught it, his religion would be no different to that of the woman mentioned in Revelation 12:1, the beneficiary of the covenants, “A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a garland of 12 stars on her head. Mohammed's religion is as invalid as any of the hundreds and thousands of BASED ON Christ, religions and sects. Mohammed says, “The USA is the Great Satan”. Jesus Christ, through the Prophet Daniel and John the Revelator says, “The Papacy is the Great Satan”.
2.Crap. If Mohammed had not used the names of Moses and Christ he would have had no credibility at all.
3.Nothing that I have said or that Jesus Christ has said comes from the sources or the time periods you suggest. The Trinity is a doctrine of men and as such is of no interest to me. The teaching of Jesus Christ and his apostles (excluding the gate crasher, Paul) is that in the beginning the one true God, with His Father's permission and authority, created the heavens and the earth, gave Noah his flood. The same one true God entered into the covenants with Abraham and Moses, before becoming the Messiah in fulfillment of those covenants. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the daily sacrifice, without which the Mosaic Law is incomplete. There is no entry into the Kingdom of God except through the Lamb of God and the related sanctuary services.

I don't understand your confusion with the first commandment which is very clear. It does not support your perceptions of one Fatherless God.

Your mental mechanics and rationale are those of an atheist.

From Hebrew, Gen 1:1, “...... the GODS created ....... the earth”.

RObert

Thanks for another great post mate. Yes, I too have learned heaps from other posters on OLO - even if I do not agree with them. I often make mistakes and change my mind, but for me, that's what learning is all about.

Thanks for the well wishes. Yes, we are not far from the fires. Alan had to drive past on his way to and from work. He said it is a devastating sight. There were around 14 fire trucks, some even from Brisbane. Alan said some of the fires are still burning, despite the heroic efforts of our wonderful firies.

Sad to think that arsonists have given this to hundreds of employees at Christmas. Worse still, these people are now unemployed just over a week before Christmas.

Cheers RObert
Kay

GoldBrick,

“Your mental mechanics and rationale are those of an atheist”

Grateful for your ‘on the fly’ analysis of my mental capacity. I hope you aren’t charging for it! :-)

Btw, you still did not answer point no 2: the Quran story of Jesus was different to what Christians at the time believed hence the reason why Islam was fought by pagan arabs, Jews and Christians. There was no followers of Islam for the first 13 years. How exactly did Mohamed PBUH benefit from mentioning Jesus story in this fashion? Who exactly would have found it credible?

Christian don't like to talk how Christianity reinvents it's self every few centuries and give the story a bit of a tweak. Next version has JC driving a merc and wearing a woolen business suit and designer sun glasses.

Kenny, sorry no points for idiotic comments today, try again tomorrow.

Fellow-Human, I'll have a go at answering your illogical logic (point 2 above):

>>How exactly did Mohamed PBUH benefit from mentioning Jesus story in this fashion? <<

Well history shows that mohammed annihilated anyone who did not agree with his theories. He never took criticism lightly. He was the first terrorist. He wrote the first manual still used today by his followers.

>>Who exactly would have found it credible?<<

It seems he convinced a few stooges then and sadly there is no shortage today.

GoldBrick,

Interesting how FH picks the questions he can fudge and overlooks those he can’t.

You mentioned on December 14:

>>It is most likely that our sins existed before we were born. Our sins of this world are nothing more than a reflection of our current sinful status.<<

In the first book “genesis” SIN is introduced unto humanity following “the fall” of Adam and Eve. The once perfect relationship between God the Father and His creation was broken.

This factor is an essential foundation of the Judeo-Christian bible. We are all born sinners – and in desperate need for a saviour.

In the Qur’an “the fall” is a physical fall from an etherial paradise (where ever that is) an intergalactic drop (Mr. Bean style) onto earth. Adam was spiritually the same before and after the fall - therefore not any different from Jesus or any other ‘prophet’ after him.

This divergence alone makes the two books: the Bible versus the Qur’an forever contradictory and eternally irreconcilable to each other.

The first sets the scene for a saviour ‘Jesus’ - the other conveniently and essentially finds no need for ‘Jesus’.

Coach,

I will have to agree with Alchemist comment that you seem to have never studied Christianity, Islam or Judaism.

First, Mohamed PBUH had no followers for the first 13 years since the revelation of the Holy Quran. If he made it up to get support, maybe we would have said”gee its not working let me change it”. I am sure they will fudge you an answer next “faithful session” don’t be late.

Second, the Quran claims that Jesus (PBUH) is in fact the one and only Messiah and Mohamed PBUH is merely a reminder, a witness and a warner.If it was fake, why Mohamed PBUH claim no status for himself?

Third and last, the original sin is alien to the Torah (notice I never call it Old Testament). Jesus PBUH confirmed what Mohamed PBUH said about the Mosaic law: it shall remain until God inherits the earth. The idea of turning God into a Swiss Army knife is neither in the Torah or the Quran.

The Quran confirms the Bible contents. Don’t take my word for it, read Pope Honorius (648AD) writings about the commonalities across the Abraham religions.

Coach, you can either do your own homework, find your own truth and be happy with it or just keep copying from your Sunday forums and come to public forums to puke on everyone else faith.
Although it requires more thinking and hard work, can I ask you kindly to try the first option?

Fellow_Human,

No need to get nasty just because you cannot justify your points.

There are 66 Books in the bible and yet you could not find the first one "genesis".

Jesus the Christ did not need recognition or approval. He confirmed Himself by Himself. There is no verse in your qur'an explaining the meaning of the Christ (el-massih). SO how can we be talking about the same person?

So mentioning someone is not the same as "knowing" that person. (You and I may know about John Howard but his wife will know him more intimately and God will know everything about him)

Jesus said I and The Father are One. Jesus as you know lives today and reveals Himself to us daily through The Holy Spirit. We are in constant and direct communication.

The Qur'an was supposedly revealed to mohammad over 22 years. He was 40 when he first heard the voices and he died at 62. It was some 100 years before any 'book' was assembled. Is it possible that some of its content may have been lost, changed, or deleted? let alone the passages that mohammed himself abrogated over the years?

I stick to my previous comment which you have once more confirmed to me that our 2 books are completely different and will never mean the same thing. I prefer to base ‘my truth’ on a complete revelation that never changes written over 2000 years by some 40+ writers - than the words of one man over 22 years.

Coach,

First apologies if my comment offended you, no bad intentions.

I am amazed at your distorted versions of history and theology. I can see you are another “Islam bashing wanna be” but at least spend sometime learning and reading scriptures (I respect other “Mosque-teers” like Boaz and Kaktuz even though they studied distorted versions but they made the effort).

How do you expect others to respect or consider your views when you keep quoting from the Bible? Your posting above confirms that you neither know the meaning of the word Messiah, its history in Hebrew or when the Quran was written or assembled.

Btw, Jesus could have never said “I & the father are one” maybe it’s a distorted meaning translation (check old coptic scripts). Jesus confirms in the bible he is a lesser being than the father when saying he does not know when the day of judgement is but “only the father knows”. Did you really study the bible?

Anyway, I hope you find the peace you are looking for,
last posting on this thread.

Coach 3876

>>This factor is an essential foundation of the Judeo-Christian bible. We are all born sinners – and in desperate need for a saviour. <<

My convictions preceded my knowledge of the Gospels, my convictions are not dependent on my understanding of the Gospels, my understandings are a consequence of my convictions. My understanding of the Gospels are my own and not learnt from others. I chose to understand the scriptures as abstractions, the way they were given, not dividing God's abstractions except on a temporary basis, while eating and drinking the words of Jesus the Christ, in order to grow. My understanding grows daily while I am working with the word of God. Occasionally I change direction.

I am surprised that the Cu'ran gives that account of the fall, but it could have been derived from the Christian Scriptures, Rev. 12:9. Like FH says, the Cu'ran is modeled on earlier scriptures. I have never read the Cu'ran and I have no intention to do so.

The story of Adam and Eve is a parable or symbolic language, or some other form of abstraction, and can not be taken literally. The Bible describes itself as a mystery. Jesus Christ used parables so that only the few intended can understand, the rest are to receive confusion. To use Adam and Eve and the apple and the serpent as a reason for our predicament in this world is why the story was given. My belief is if we knew the truth reconciliation with God would be impossible. God only talks about matters relevant to them to whom redemption is offered. Therefore Rev. 12:9 is relevant and will be understood at the appropriate time.

I don't think the bible needs foundation, if it did then not sin but salvation and redemption.

The foundation of the New Jerusalem, the faith of the redeemed, is given by God.

The foundation of the Great Satan is provided by men, Dr. of Theology's provide doctrines of men, based on scripture, use the words 'Jesus Christ' but do not use the garments Christ provides.

I am a Muslim who does not hate Christians or any other religion and Islam does not tell us to hate other religions. I have friends at Uni who are Christians and they discuss to me about the bible and the Jehovah’s give me magazines. I laugh at those who mock Islam and those who say it is false. Look at Christianity I say, look at the many different types of Christians that exist (Jehovah’s witness, Catholics, protestants, Anglicans, orthodox...etc) and pay attention to the fact of how many of you disagree with each other on the teachings of the bible, EVEN THOUGH YOU CHRISTIANS. You have testaments that were WRITTEN BY THE ROMANS, NOT LIKE MUSLIMS PASSED ON BY GOD THROUGH OUR PROHPET. Furthermore you have an old and a new testament, which contradict each other in many aspects (seven of which i know). NORMAL PEOPLE WROTE THE TESTAMENTS! Plus many Christians argue that that Old Testament is wrong. LMAO I thought it was the words of god, how do you contradict god’s teachings. CLEARLY JUST SUCH SIMPLE THINGS AND ALREADY PROVEN TO BE WRONG!.

Islam has been there longer than Christianity and our prophets and Nabis (Jesus) have made sure of it. Its Christians who make up the figures of when Islam began because they fear the truth. So long have they believed that they were the write religion that they can't accept the fact the Islam is the correct.

Christians know that we believe in Jesus but you trick yourselves into believing that they don’t. Yet you also say Jesus is god or god’s son? How is that possible god or gods son can be killed, as you say what happened. He is god or the Son of God I though. Hmmmmm... ay

Furthermore look at the many atrocious things Christians commit adultery, you swear, you drink, you murder. Are these the good Christians?

Anyways in 2020 Islam will be the dominant religion so LIVE WITH IT.

Just to add the only reason many migrants, such as Arabs, Afghanis and so forth is because you screwed up our countries. You come and destroy for your leisure and now you don’t want to compensate US! How many wars have the wests started up in the Middle East and how many innocent lives have you taken. The least you could do is let us live in your country, since you screwed ours up. I know there are the bad ones and I know since their Arab you classify them as Muslims, however there not. You can’t be bad and be a Muslim. Plus I know how much you think Lebanese are Muslims but since most of you are to foolish to go and research. 50% of Lebanese people are CHRISTIANS! Ok and there ones who mainly come to the west because they feel more at “HOME”. DON’T FEAR US FEAR THE UNKNOWN AND YOUR PUNISHMENT IN JUDGEMENT DAY” THE PROPHOCIES HAVE ALREADY BEGAN AND THE END IS NEAR…..

Muhsen,

You - like all Moslems - have been fed a lot of lies. Your hate and anger are just the result of your lack of understanding of spiritual things.

If Islam is really from God, how can it not have known that Jesus was killed on a cross?

Is it because Islam wants you to think and believe that no harm can happen to God’s prophets and messengers?

Isn’t true also that most prophets are human beings, who sinned, murdered, committed adultery, etc… or this is not revealed in your version of God’s stories?

How do you know for sure that Mohammad had any revelation from God?

If the Qur’an is the perfect word of God – why does it have so many historical mistakes?

Why does Allah change his mind and give new ayat to replace wrong ones?

As a Christian I am not afraid of the “unknown” because the real God has revealed the future to me. Christians have an assurance of salvation that was given TO ALL by Jesus Christ. And the real God never reneges on His promises and change His mind (like Allah can).

Mohammad did not prophesy anything, did not commit one miracle, denied the message of Jesus, killed and raped women and children, could not promise salvation to anyone even himself … and you put your trust in Him instead of God’s real prophets. WHY?

Anger will not solve your problems – only a belief in the real God and His only SON JESUS.

Oh God

Here we go again!