Ifran,
Like Fellow_Human, I think it is time to end my participation in this thread. I have been educated to the existence of some further writings that are useful to my growth and I will endeavour to read them. Thankyou for that.

As to the debate (if I can be so kind as to call it that), it has been interesting (again, kind). Best of life to each of you. However a closed mind is as damaging as a closed heart.

Regards,

The Ainulindalë (cont.)

" The Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past."

"Now the Children of Ilúvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars."

" 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it. And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is."

"Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

Ash
if you are going to leave the thread, don't leave with the thought 'they hate us' in you mind or heart. It has not, is not and will not be about hating you ! (Howwww many times must this be repeated) Disagreement, even PASSIONATE disagreement does not equal hate. As they say in the movies 'hELLOOOOO' :)

Irfan,

I guess now you realize that some subjects press peoples buttons. Like 'Assylum seekrs' press the bleeding heart left's buttons and this subject presses ours. Its life. Roll with the punches and come back swinging :) metaphorically speaking of course.

My hope and prayer is that you guys will come to know Christ as Savior and Lord, and that you give Jesus the place He inherrantly has, as Son of God/God the Son, to reduce Him from this is something one would need to think carefully about I believe.
Grace and Peace

The Ainulindalë (end):

"When the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar."

" And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults."

Will & Grace ;)

Deserves a standing ovation. Loud applause! Encore! Garra! Garra!
Garra! Garra! We want more!

Hi Philo - glad you enjoyed my little joke :)

Please note that I mean disrespect to neither Islam nor Christianity, but rather to highlight the silliness of simply deploying slabs of obscure and ambiguous text, instead of actually communicating.