Sorry, Everald, you can't get your God off the hook that easily. According to the official credo of your religion, God made the very first human beings in the full and complete knowledge of every single thing that they and their descendants would do from that moment until the end of time: every massacre, every witch-burning, every Crusade, every suicide bomb in every crowded marketplace. And not only did he know this, but he could have prevented it, then or at any time in the future. Had he wanted things otherwise, he could have made it so.

Now, if you want to renounce the official version and claim that your God is NOT omnipotent and/or NOT omniscient, that's fine: just resign from your church and spend the rest of your days explaining just how powerful and how knowing your God actually is, and how you come to be possessed of this information. But as long as you carry an official banner for an all-knowing, all-powerful God then you'll have to wear the consequences of that belief, as unpalatable as they may be to a modern enlightened mind.

It's called the Problem of Evil, and ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Everald, your God, if He, She or It existed, would bless you.

I loved your words: "and I find that, when you cut away all the heavy theology that smothers any faith, you can get down to the very essence of them all. You discover the irrefutable fact that they are all religions of love and peace and justice."

Everald, the things that our world is most short of are love and peace and justice. This is in spite of the fact that religion affects the lives of most of the world's people. Obviously there is a serious disconnect between religious belief and human nature.

I wish that we could get rid of all religions. I don't think it is a good thing to indoctrinate little kids with fears about ancient myths and superstitions.

Religion divides people, confuses them, and deranges them. It would be better to accept life as it is, base our lives on reality and the here and now, and try to make every day worthwhile by helping other people and sharing what we have with them. That should bring its own rewards.

The Big Lotto Win in the Sky is a nonsense, a massive con.

It's gone on for long enough!

Yep and now secularist murder the unborn by the millions in the name of no God just like Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao.

ps watch out for those fundamentalist salvos this Christmas as they look after the down and outs.

Everald. Thanks for giving us an insight into your own personal journey. With more people like you, I venture to suggest that the world would be a better place. Given your interest in the two "r"s, railways and religion, you may be interested in two op-eds that I have posted on both topics. Links below. Regards, Jim Page.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12895
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15784

Runner, how much will the Salvos commit to the "Down and Outs" this Christmas, from the billions of cash they have !
That equal to a pinch of salt, is what they will give !!
In the UK the Salvos commit only 14% annually, of what they receive in donations towards those who need help.
Your mate Jesus would not be happy with this lot.

'Runner, how much will the Salvos commit to the "Down and Outs" this Christmas, from the billions of cash they have !
That equal to a pinch of salt, is what they will give !!

funny enough Kipp the officers I know in the salvation receive a pittance compared to the officers on the tax funded gw religion gravy train. You certainly have a warped view on things.

Jesus would not be happy with a lot of people, he if you believe that would include Royalty, "God save the Queen" why her, the glove wearer, can't touch a commoner or mustn't be touched ,that I am sure is not what Jesus was all about, the pauper was more to his liking than the super rich if you believe that book of rubbish, "the bible" unfortunately everything is man made regarding God and Jesus, until people realise that, wars etc. will always be with us, the rich will get richer and the poor, poorer, and the super rich will make sure of that, but lets make sure they believe something when they depart this world, that is all they have left to believe in, a concocted story
I am amazed at the logic of people, if their supposed God is omnipotent, he could have stopped that disaster in the Philippines recently, he has the power, then the people left standing attend their church to pray to the all powerful God who caused the disaster in the first place.

'Philippines recently, he has the power, then the people left standing attend their church to pray to the all powerful God who caused the disaster in the first place.

yep and people are stupid enough to believe they are less sinful than those who died in the Phillipines. Makes you marvel at how patient God is with such defiance and sinfulness.

yes..very..interesting..it is a special/time..
[this DESIGNATED..christs birth-day]..releases..thoughts..such as these

<<..so long..as we remember..that only..a minority
of the world's population..will be celebrating it.>>

yes..that tells me i wrote the wrong guy
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15747#273555

<<...can..we make this christ-mass..
more like.'thanks-giving'

ie the father..invites ..ANYONE/every-one
into..ANY/every..church/mosque temple..[in the world]
to/share the fact..that him*born..this day..by his death..AND RETURN*

jesus..refuted..both judgments day..and resurrection day
by returning..on the 3 rd day

what i see..[ok envision]..is we forgive and forget
and just share what we have..in..tho/other places we all go..to avoid being alone

especially..on/this chosen sacred day..of our [mankind's Savior]
peace..on earth..holding..the sacred..menorah..by its true meaning

NOT..beat-up..the athiest star*

but the idea..if evolving off the rough edges..from davids star
plus stopping the atheist..of gods holy lands by SECULAR-zionist

maybe we can return..BACK-to the lamp-stand

..to all..those who engage..in..the study
of..the Torah..and not of..the laws of war*

YOU..who....have adopted..as..a state-symbol
the menorah..(candlebrum).

<<..which is explained..in the Tenach..
(on..the occasion of..a previous return..to the Holy Land).

as,WRITTEN

*"not..with..*armed force*..and..not with power,*....*KEY*
but..*in My spirit..says..the..Lord of Hosts.">>

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176496

the feast of lights/pilgrims/sharing the joy/of our infinite fruits

wow..what a papal message..come..eat
we bring food for the soul/no..preaching..allowed
this is a day..for sharing the joy[giving it back to god..regardless of the messenger

quick version
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

repeated every day..till the feasts of feasts
[his rebirth day]..when he joins us..in..spirit..maDE..FLESH
ON THE THIRD DAY..oops yelling mass-age..means message ends.ahhh men

jon.j..makes/the classic...error..wrought..by/miss-perception
he..rightfully accords..that/of pre-life..[mortal-life]..pre-vieuw
but wrongly..limits it..just..to adam/eve

jon..we.all got../one*

every-day..of our/life..is measured..in..heart-beats
once..the required TEACHINGS/learning's..[earnings..of/our..very mortal-life..are/done..your reason..for..incarnated being..have graduated/beyond..the flesh]

see..that god..knows..us intimately..jon
know/that..omnipresent..means./*even within..the_most*vile/'living
there-is..the holy_spirit..sustaining..it/its life

going/by..the most vile[life/living]..we KNOW..god
yet sustains..even/it..its living...[thus/as jesus..revealed..many times..that ye..do..to/the least..you do to/the most..BECAUSE..good or bad..god sustains..all*living

god dont..judge us..jon
god KNOWS..we each/come from...
eternal..truths..and infinite loves

[god..dont judge/us..by WHAT..we chose/to love..[now]..
KNOWING..that..in/the end..we*ALL..will*love..good..and truth...[unto EVEry-other..]

and/once..we..'get-it'..its like..the/parable
of..the/long*lost*son..[EVENTUALLY..that..includes everyone.]

its/not.a race..jon..
we have..*eternity..to/find..the/true*love..is love/of other..

IN/a..mere/life-time..we see/the..eternal-way..IS..that
we love god..is via...love..[of other].

that..we did.to..the least
we did..to him..sustaining..EVEN/the least..our..miserable/lives

but/..what..did we,,CHOSE..to do..to..help..'other'
thus/love god..by loving/our..br[other]s..selves

god..didnt..make.,.life..for light..or transient reason
he*made../life\..that/through_life....he might gainsay..to know..'thyself'

by..knowing..other..we..may*know..our true*self
by..loving_other...we*may..love..our-self..[and..thus god]

UN-till..we all..*get..that/to
see..any*other=[is]=to see god

anyhow..lets see..if..we can..get..that
name-calling ..god..aint getting it..

words..have meaning
recall/black majic=a spell
its..all spelling..it*out..and dis*spelling

in..short..ask..and..god gives it
[so what..is being asked?

<<Too many..choose/a God called Money>>
god/chooses money?..no

god give's..infinite credit*..[where credit/is due]

<<they are really...fragile people>>
thou arte of..good..[god]..is god fragile?

<<cause more/havoc..for humanity>>

we are ETERNAL/immortal..spirit
having a MORTAL/walk about...on..a sabbatical/holy-day[called mortal-life]

<<..the most..bigoted/of religious killers.>>

YOU ARE..*SPIRIT
all death=instant rebirth
DEATH..where ist.thy..sting*

god..SUSTAINS..EVERY/life..its living
what means emmanuel[goid withus]..[ie god..with-in=..us[all]

<<Too/many bigots,>>

god is/a..[big-ot?]

<<who worship/
greed and a selfish<<

hang-on..these arnt,,JOYFUL/words
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6119&page=0

<<every vestige..of bigotry>>

GOD/with/in..us..all

god..IS..with-in/us all..<<we carry around,..as it
is excess baggage /that is..a very heavy burden.>>

as god/..with god/..helping god
there is no burden..only a fellow traveler..
travailing..the..doubts of self-hood..[one*god/gets..very lonely..as you MUST realize..by now?]

<<writing this article..reminds me
that..I..have a/long way to go.>>

look/not..how far eternity..is
but see..how far..we have come?

<<..Implementing some changes..of attitude
during the goodwill..of the Christmas/season..is a great idea,>>

i..fully agree/most heartedly
its time to..see..HIS greatness..in EVERYONE

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15747#273555

AHHHH..men..LETS/party/hearty[joyfully].
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

Everald's essay is a good example of how any good-hearted individual in the "21st" century should practice their religion and simultaneously build bridges of ecumenical understanding with members of other faith traditions.

Jon J you state " But as long as you carry an official banner for an all-knowing, all-powerful God then you'll have to wear the consequences of that belief, as unpalatable as they may be to a modern enlightened mind."

In Islam we believe in a God that is all-knowing and all-powerful, as well as all-merciful, all-compassionate and the all-wise and indeed, unlike our author, Al-Muntaqim (the Avenger) "the One who breaks the back of the arrogant, the One who severely punishes the perpetrators and presses punishment upon the tyrants." (Al-Ghazali "Ninety-Nine Names of Allah)

Would you be prepared to elaborate on your critique?

' But as long as you carry an official banner for an all-knowing, all-powerful God then you'll have to wear the consequences of that belief, as unpalatable as they may be to a modern enlightened mind."
'
and certainly to believe the idiotic unscientific notion that we came from nothing and are not designed despite evidence screaming at you keeps your mind totally in darkness.

It doesn’t matter what you believe, Grateful.

<<In Islam we believe…>>

Only what you can demonstrate. That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.

That aside, however, so long as you’re happy to attribute the ‘all-knowing’ and ‘all-powerful’ characteristics to your god, Jon J’s point is still valid with no need for elaboration. The tautological ‘all-compassionate’, ‘all-wise’ and ‘just’ attributes that you mention only serve to make the problem of evil appear even worse for your god.

Furthermore, a god cannot be all-merciful and just at the same time because mercy is a suspension of justice.

aj/quote..<<..Furthermore, a god cannot be all-merciful
and just at the same time..>>

thats sad..you seem to..think/to..know
<<..because mercy..is a suspension/of justice..>

not quite..its justice fully filled

mercy REQUIRES..giving mercy..to..get it
further..its usually/only/proven..by redeeming-act.

<<..Furthermore,..a god cannot be all-merciful
and..just at the same time..>>

rubbish..[we are immortal/souls]..death..is simply re-birth

god..is with-in..both the victim..'wronged'..
as much as in the wrong doer..so,,in affect[spiritualy]..
the BALANCE/between the good and the vile..is god..[and god is love grace...mercy/logic light love/life..incarnate]

THAT YE DO TO THE LEAST
was done..to/the..most.

anyhow..as you say

<<..That which can be asserted/without evidence,
can be dismissed/without evidence..>>

yet..the same applies..to thyne statement/as much/as mine
except..i..got proof..feel free to refute
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

"Furthermore, a god cannot be all-merciful and just at the same time because mercy is a suspension of justice."

A problem compounded by beliefs which also imagine god as legislator, judge, jury and executioner.

Multi-tasker or obsessive-compulsive? As reflected by followers, god's immutability seems inconceivable.

I didn't know that God needed a will!

Is He, She or It planning on dying or departing for another Universe and leaving us sinful humans to it?

Will God's Children be mentioned in the Will?

Will they gather around when the Will is read out?

Will they inherit great riches or will they be punished for their war crimes?

So many questions...

Millions of children under five who have never sinned die each year, where is this so called God of love, it is time people woke up to the fact there is no such thing as a God, we will die and be the same as before we came, that is nothing, so lets enjoy the now rather than waiting for an everlasting life in some fictitious place.

ojnab/quote<<..Millions/of children..under five[who have/never..sinned>>

in/this l;ife

<<..die each/year,..where is/this..so called..God of love>>..

you..must recall..that we..*are eternal/spirit..having..a..material.. space-time..separation/life experience..of life-teachings/lessons
to..evolve spiritually..[once we 'got/it..why hang arround?

why..hang/around..for the rest/of..it/once the..life-lesson..is learned..[some..use re-birth..to fill-in time/as a loved one..may still have..many-years to..live..so/they seek-out..brief parts..[short-lives]..in..this..karmic-play.

clearly..you think..we all..want/long-life..sentences
but some..lives are shorter/others longer..but..we each/get 'equal/wage'[grace/mercy..etc]

anyhow/david

re/..what god wills..read what jesus said..re gods will
http://acimsearch.org/text/salvation-and-god%E2%80%99s-will/

“The contrast..between..His Will..[God's*Will]
and yours..but seemed to/be reality...In truth
there was..no conflict,..for..His Will..is yours...(M-20.6)”

Affirmation:..
“God’s Will.*is..my will.”

Reflections:

Only in Illusions..[delusional-imaginings]..
Does..our will..Differ..from God's..Will

We re separated..from..god..only,by..our illusions,[falsities]
we..believe that..we want something/for ourselves..that God..[being/sane]..would/not will..for us.

its covered/at the 2de last post here
[Tuesday,10 December 2013 8:17:53]..just in case..i end it/ there
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

When we are thinking..this..self/delusional-way,..
we are thinking through the ego.[see the previous posts]..

When the Holy Spirit prompts us..to say or do..or think of something, He is speaking..for..[on behalf..of our matures..[not our/ill-will]our real will,..the one we share with God.

He is ever/ready to give us what we really want.
[see the next two pages..of the source link[pages 200/203]

Would we turn aside from this?
who knows..jonah did..

proving..its better to do nothing..than..do/it with ill-will

once we get that god=all truth/all..love/all grace/all mercy
we know..'our masters voice'..AND we know..if WHAT/we will..is true
its granted...page 202.[i..think]][i havnt edited it/yet]..not sure i need to.

once we get..that we can only wish..for 'real-things'
The distinction between God’s Will and our will then disappears.

We do not have to feel like the Jonah of the Old Testament, a lesson that would have us believe that we cannot escape God’s Will, even when we are acting as hard as we might to do something else.

I don’t know all the nuances of that type of thinking, but it is fallacious reasoning. Jonah’s best action was actually to/do what God wanted him to do...NOTHING

[yet god only wants..for our will
[and only we can know..what is true/good/etc./.of our own free-will]

In that alone..would he find the joy
and happiness that he,..and all others, seek.

OUG,

Your response to me made no sense whatsoever; such little sense, in fact, that the only way I could adequately address it would be to leave you with this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

please aj..i know..your/more clever..than that
[but..satan's/minions..[ego]..has dulled..your ears]

BUT..FOOLISHNESS...IS INHERENT..IN CHILDREN AND..THEREFORE
PARENTS..MUST KNOW*..HOW TO DEAL/WITH FOLLY..[WHEN IT OCCURS].

To call/a brother..a fool is/to declare..him to-be/worthless

thus...TO ASSOCIATE..WITH FOOLS..IS BOTH UNWISE..AND UNPLEASANT.

He who corrects..a scoffer..begets..dishonor..only..for himself,..And he who reproves..a wicked man..begets insults..alone..for himself... thus..Do not reprove..a scoffer,..lest he/fear you,..[Reprove a wise man,..and he will..love you.[(9:7-8)[words/to..the wise].

Certain people..immediately..come to/our minds
with..the mention..of the word fool.

Do not..answer a fool..according/to his folly,..Lest you..also be like him...Answer a fool..as his folly deserves,..Lest he be wise in his own eyes..(26:4-5).[lest/you..gainsay..their/own..hell.]

..a fool..learns-from no-one..

Any..Wisdom is..too high..for a fool,
He will/not..open his mouth in the gate..(proverbs/24:7).
[..because we..must..give*permission..to open gates..with our own mouths.]
[As long/as..the mouth gate..is/not opened,..the devil*knows he has won...IF*..you can't..open your mouth..to praise God,..its/best..not..open your mouth]

BUT..The fool..has..no capacity.for wisdom...he simply....has..“no heart”..for it....He may* seem to..seek wisdom,..but is incapable/of recognizing/applying/using..it..or retaining it.

*..THE FOOL..HAS NO DESIRE/..FOR WISDOM,..AND
WOULD REJECT..IT..EVEN IF/HE COULD ACQUIRE IT..BECAUSE HE FEARS IT:

All of...them..evoke..a certain..sense/of pity,..mixed with ironic amusement...Not so with/the fool..This is but..one of..the reasons why..the study..of/“the fool”\..is important.

A wise man..can learn..more..from a foolish question
more than..a fool..can learn from a
wise answer.

Otto von Bismarck said..'
a fool..learns..only..from his/own mistakes. The wise man
learns from the mistakes of others.'

Proverbs..17:10.."A rebuke..impresses..a man..of discernment
more/than..a hundred/lashes a fool."

From..the errors..of others,..
a wise/man..corrects his own.

Leave/the presence..of a fool,
Or..you will/not discern..even..words/of knowledge..(14:7).

i could..keep/going indefinitely..but..to..what end
a fool..is just a child..who..has..miss/heard..or not..heard at all.

i..hear..you brother
its no bother..[water off..a ducks back]

[but..why only barter..your knowing/with..the wise
its..so much..easier to..learn from..the folly..of the foolish]

cheers/br-other
its wasted..on/you..[at/this..time]..i know

but maybe..next time..you may/try to..*appear..more wise
than/that..absurd clip..you..posted..[the title..alone]..reveals the greater fool..]
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/wise_man.html
http://bible.org/seriespage/fool-proverbs-261-11

WmTrevor,..<<A problem compounded by beliefs which also imagine god as legislator, judge, jury and executioner.>>

i agree..its imagined
[i hesitate to presume..to reply..

i/had hoped the author/would find..the will..to..reply

regardless..its clear that..god dont judge/legislate..nor execute
thats so blatantly obvious..AS* a LIFE GIVER..can hardly be pleased..by seemingly..ending life.[let/the dead..tend the dead]

it may safely./be noted further..
that THE FATHER..of all life..embodies..ONLY THE BEST..of fatherhood. having supreme/faith..in..HIS created..[just as/any good parent would.]

<<..Multi-tasker or obsessive-compulsive?>>..

happily..he is both..[its hard enough..to draw/a flower
let alone create..one..[ditto..the coloring-in/of his creations]

who can but..paint the markings..of the fish/birds/plants flowers..but one who..expects..a PERFECT/end.

<<..As reflected by followers,>>

seems a fair measure..yet..once you think
to know..the artist..you cant hold him to..account..for evil..done..in/his name.

freewill..however..allows a broad\canvas/..yet a fine brush.

<<god's immutability seems inconceivable.>>

so it may seem..[to those who..think..
that..god thought creation..in..an instant]..

but we..who..must[now]..live in/it..day/by day/
the..evolving/process..of eternity..[one day at a time]..must discover his immutability..*by our evolution..and his crreations..rather than his perfected..being..[dreaming].long ago.

thats what i...liked about the big-bang/theory
that was..a neat way..of god..creating/learning and dreaming..again/again

with the big bang ..expanding/contracting..space/time..[like breathing]..thus god always was..[ie eternal]..but creation..[finiteness]...has its beginning..a-gain..and again and again..into eternity.

now i..see god simply/as the collective..merciful/good/truth
revealed by the light..that sustains life..that life might by logic find..the living loving true light..[within/us all.]..by our heart/light

but..i would/so love to..hear from..the author
as his insights between..the divergent messengers..of the one good[god]..can only expand the wisdom..of his precedent/words and works..that created the topic..

but i..for'got..myself in..the enthusiasm..like always
[but i cant switch half on..]god..is all..in all..of all
that we hate..in other..we thus hate in..our good[god]/self.

Please OUG can you write so we can all understand what you are saying, remember long and lengthy and hard to read opinions normally are not read and skipped over.
There is no proof that a God, Spirit, Soul exits, these are all man made items.

OUG,

There was far more earnestness in my response to you than there was 'clowning around', and I had hoped that my tone would convey that too.

I don’t see how referring you to that link displayed foolishness or a lack of wisdom on my behalf. As Thomas Jefferson even said:

“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them…”

With that in mind, I think the clip that I linked you to had the perfect blend of serious, constructive criticism, and ridicule. You need to take that on board and not be so quick to assume that the problem must lie with others.

Ojnab,..<<..Please OUG can you write so we can all understand what you are saying,>>

clearly..not..

<<>.remember long and lengthy and hard to read opinions normally are not read>>

so..what?
my spirit..says say this/say..that..so i do
[thats the best..i can do]..a beat-up pick-up truck..cant look..like a jaguar
i can only deliver/the message..its up stop others what they feel driven,,to do...with it.

<<and skipped over.>>
thats..ok..too
<<..There is no proof>>

EITHER_WAY..caause that interferes with freewill
if i..presented my/proof..how can/that apply..to ANY-other/..one who stoped listening

in the end..im..only accountable for my..own ignorances

my..proof..that a God, Spirit, Soul exits, is my personal..gift
i know..what life made happen..to me/that shaped..me..gave me my proofs..[not yours]

<<these are all man made items.>>

ok..present..your proof..and i will refute it

the one thing..i..do know..is god..made life..[life didnt make god]

my life teachings taught me..ENERGY>>CANT..BE CREATED..NOR DESTROYED
[i..will listen..to..your PROOF..that it can..be lol..destroyed]..[even/though..I..*KNOW.,.it cant.]

short enough for you?

your proof..please....how was the universe created
where didst..life come from?..[what was the first living thing][first life]
what was..the 'first/evolution..of life/your proof?]..where did it come from..[what is your proof?]

do you believe..the brane-theory..[of creation]..how is that different..from heaven/hell
do you believe as mr dorkins postulaytes..that life came from..alians..[if so where did their living come from..[how were they begot?

you have been decieved..
[if you believed..god would have proven/his reality..in..every second..of your life..
call//god..the sum total..of all..[E}.=.energy..[ie..mass/light/space/time]..

you are my proof..of god
so/what=your proof of no god?

OUG, if God was the creator of the world, where did God come from, or who was God's creator. Something has to come from something, perhaps you can enlighten me, because most people enjoy this life, they want to continue enjoyment after death. So some person invented the saying "if you believe in me (God) you shall have everlasting life" then everybody seemed to be happy and joyous, except some that questioned that God is an imagination of the mind only, like children with Father Christmas.

i have replied more fully..because it feels like a troll/off topic

but..in good-faith..it begins here
but coonludes at link

see link at bottom..

i write it hoping..that..the incongruity..of it
is pointed/out..[explaining..questions..gives me different guidance]

but..i..dont judge my guides
only..writing..what they say..now
the previous..[at/link]..is much more reliable

use your freewill..if it sounds wrong
ask..your own..guides to advise..they reply instantly

so expect immediate reply
[by synchronicity]..it was noted a few times
[in writing this..which continues
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040#178185

Ojnab,<<..OUG,..if God was the creator..of the world,
where did God come from,..or who was God's creator.>>

WE..=energy
god=energy

effectively...collectively..we..could be...*said..to/have been
gods 'creator'..COLLECTIVELY..[in unity]..not ever individually

AND>.thus is/not creation..
fulfillment..'of men'..'E'..[or/rather SPIRITS..of men]
but not as men..pro-claim..[as in..god concept/made-up/by man]

think..of it..much..like our own/body..90%..of us is water
but most of our dna..belongs to..the OTHER/life forms/micro-beasts.. moulds bacteria..etc..virus/dna/..[the organic/biota]..Sustaining.. the living..of our mortal;..body..its living..

so too..like our specialist/biota..are each..of our
individual/UNIQUE/life-specialties that together/animate..the collective good.

god=E[energy/ie mc2..
[you know..E=MC2..[its science/albert einstein]
E=cannot be created..nor destroyed..thus E..ALLWAYS..was..[see eternal][E=eternal/E=energy..[E=MASS times the speed/of light/times the speed of light]..thats how it would be replied..by math

by the bigbang..we are all E..[energy]

and E=god..[science yet again..theorizes]..that 14.400.[million].. years ago..that the universe..began expanding]..this..likely occurred..when satan..[and half of the angels..left heaven]

anyhow yadda/yadda..long story short
god is eternal..he is the collective...sum total..of all the E
that may..or may not have manifested..by his creation..

with a big bang

500 more words at link
so im not trolling..off the topic

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040#178185

AJ Phillips, Jon J.

The following hadith with commentary will help us put the issue in context

<<The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “We Prophets are like that: our pain is multiplied so our rewards will be multiplied.” [Ahmad]

The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said this when he was suffering from a fever much higher than what normally afflicts people and the Sahabah were surprised by this.

In general though, this is true for all sincere believers, that their greater hardship is made a cause for their greater reward in the Hereafter.

A man found a cocoon of a butterfly. One day a small opening appeared. He sat and watched the butterfly for several hours as it struggled to force its body through that little hole.

Then it seemed to stop making any progress. It appeared as if it had gotten as far as it could, and it could go no further.

So the man decided to help the butterfly. He took a pair of scissors and snipped off the remaining bit of the cocoon. The butterfly then emerged easily. But it had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings.

The man continued to watch the butterfly expecting that, at any moment, its wings would enlarge and expand to be able to support the body, which would contract in time.

Neither happened! In fact, the butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings. It never was able to fly.

What the man, in his kindness and haste, did not understand was that the restricting cocoon and the struggle required for the butterfly to get through the tiny opening were Allah’s way of forcing fluid from the body of the butterfly into its wings so that it would be ready for flight once it achieved its freedom from the cocoon.

Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our lives. If Allah allowed us to go through our lives without any difficulties it would cripple us and we would never be able to fly!>>

cont....

cont...

The example of the butterfly in the Hadith commentary illustrates that we cannot know what is good and what is evil without knowing the context. Is it evil to amputate someone’s hand? The answer will depend on the context. If it is to prevent the spread of gangrene to the rest of the body, then it is a mercy!

So how does one judge what is good and what is evil? As a Muslim I rely on the Qur’aan, the Prophet and those learned scholars whose only thought is of their friendship with God.

How does an atheist interpret what is good and what is evil?

Let me venture an opinion. For an atheist there is no Hereafter. Whatever purpose they choose for themselves, if they have one at all, is of this life, the only life they recognise. So when they see a mother separated from her child they declare it an evil. when they see the slaughter and destruction, they declare it an evil. They say either God is either unable to prevent the evil or unwilling to do so; that God is either not the all-powerful or not the all-merciful.

Its seems to me that the atheist is here conveniently neglecting two things about the “God Hypothesis”. The first is a distinction between our purpose and existence in this world and our purpose and existence in the next, the Hereafter. Compared to the Hereafter, our existence in this world is not even a blimp. Yet when the atheist sees a sacrifice in this world they will only look for the benefit in this world. For an atheist there is no Hereafter.

For example, for the atheist allowing a tyrant such as Gaddafi to remain in power for so long is rewarding evil while relegating a pious Muslim to poverty devoid of wealth and power is a sure sign that there can be no all-powerful or all-merciful God.

cont...

cont..

Nevertheless, an atheist cannot deny the Hereafter as part and parcel of the "God Hypothesis". In this context these events can be easily reconciled with a God that is All-Merciful and All-Powerful. Gaddafi’s gaining and retaining power corrupted him, while denying the pious person power saved him from a similar fate. An atheist might say "So what? In the end Gaddifi got all the money and girls and the other guy got nothing despite all his piety". This is what one would expect from someone who neglects to consider the Hereafter as an integral part of the God Hypothesis (as it undeniably is).

To understand this more fully, one needs to recognise a second aspect of the “God Hypothesis" that atheist seem to be ignorant of or ignore. Compare the apparent durability of our possessions and our environment, the universe and so on with the fleeting, ephemeral nature of our actions, our intentions and indeed the manner in which we experience these actions and everything that is around us. Again the atheist cannot deny the Hereafter as an integral part of the “God Hypothesis” (at least from a Muslims perspective) and that in the eyes of the believer it is the later that persists and is everlasting.
How a Muslim experiences this world is his key to success in the Hereafter.

Returning to the main point, the atheist critique of the “God Hypothesis” is flawed. It fails to recognise that it includes the Hereafter and does not comprehend the nature of success under the hypothesis.

Prophet said: “How amazing is the case of the believer; there is good for him in everything, and this characteristic is exclusively for him alone. If he experiences something pleasant, he is thankful, and that is good for him; and if he comes across some diversity, he is patient, and that is good for him.”

salaams

Typo in the last quote: "diversity" should read "adversity" :-)

'Something has to come from something, '

Ojnab

tell that to the god deniers who use their blind faith to support the big bang theory.

greatfull..quote..<<.and if he comes..across some diversity,
he..is patient,..and that is good for him.”>>

god..loves our differences
our own face..our own finger prints
our own eye-sign..our own dna..smell/taste..obligations..etc etc

our differences..do..need..patience
till we REAL-ize..we share more in common..than difference

same god..same joy

<<..Typo in the last quote: "diversity"
should read "adversity" :-)..>>..

yep..that too
its all..good
thank-you..for the insights

god did send men-kind..so many..messengers
..for the insights..[that the only true enemy..is ignorance..itself]

and any..ignorance..is simply a..lack/of fact

salaams

may peace be...realized..upon all..man's..many messengers

grateful..your parable..reminds me of others
like that..of the lost/sheep..and the hungry wiseman..

there..was one..who wast..2de born..[as seems reasonable
the first..born..received..the fathers duty..thus did cain..inherit
the..land/fixtures[ie he grew the grain]..tended..the fathers fields

the second..borne..lets call..him able..was thus made keeper..of the fungibles..[he was given..one..femail..lamb..[anyhow..the first born..was arrivved at..and the keeper of the fixtures..reaped..of the grain.

crushed and burnt..the seed..and duly offered his tender offerings before god..who looked at the feted mess..and wast not pleased..he said..i made the seed/grow..i bought the rain..i made the sun/to shine[you took living seeds..murder/them..now present their defiled desecrated corpse.]

anyhow the keepers of the fungibles..presented..the fat..of a beloved lamb[the fat revealed..him to be a good Shepard]..and we all..know how that ended..[but..itell the wrong tale.

anyhow..in..time....another..second/born,..son/
too got his inheritance..of a single..lamb..in time he had grown..his one..into many[lets say..100]..anyhow..one day..one goes missing [strangely..it was the very first]..not..unusually..he went looking for it..[someone..asks why]

well..firstly..it was..the eldest..the mother..of the 100
but so much..more..yes..able..was Sheppard..but he learned his art..from..the one..but more..she was the ever present..if she was missing..there must be a real..problem..but there is yet more..she KNEW..the safe places..knew the best grass..knew the best water..she was in partnership..tending the second borns flock.

anyhow..[next story[...the wise-man..was wandering..to..and fro
he wast hungry..so he asked god..for food..god..sent..an eagle..to..snatch..a fish/dropped it at the holy-mans feet

the holy man..didnt want..to kill to eat..so returned..it to its water..and it lived..and god was pleased..[why..he was pleased..lays in the parrable..of the 100 small fish..and one large]

one day a fisher/man..found 100small fish..and one large...in..his nets..the man..took 50 of the small..and returned..the big one and 50 little..back intothe waters..[why]..is simple to reveal.

see the big fish..was a Sheppard..[protector fish]..it kept other big fish..away..from the little ones..made..the sea safe.,,for its young..

had the fisher..taken..it..the 100..would soon..become fish-food..as another big fish came..into..the unprotected area..and ate the lot..

anyhow..in trible society..the discoverer..of aa resource..may lawfully claim..half..the other half belongs to other finders..no matter how many finders..there is always..half..is.left remaining..
[it respects god..and other..moral?..[respect/duty...the things we do..affect other.]

Grateful,

'Context' is an old apologetic pulled by Christians too, and it doesn't work.

<<In general though, this is true for all sincere believers, that their greater hardship is made a cause for their greater reward in the Hereafter.>>

So here we have this supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing being, and this is the best system he could come up with?

<<Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our lives. If Allah allowed us to go through our lives without any difficulties it would cripple us and we would never be able to fly!>>

The same could be achieved without the suffering had this god done a better job from the beginning. In fact, why would Allah bother with any of this anymore given how much he's clearly muffed it from the very beginning? There's no reason we couldn't all be taken up to heaven now as perfect beings. What do the lessons in this life prove if we’re going to be perfect beings when we enter heaven anyway? There’s no reason this unnecessary step unless Allah wants to watch a few trip-up between now and the end, and suffer eternal torment for it.

<<The example of the butterfly in the Hadith commentary illustrates that we cannot know what is good and what is evil without knowing the context. Is it evil to amputate someone’s hand? The answer will depend on the context.>>

So in what context is owning another human being okay? The Qur'an and the Bible endorse slavery without specifically condemning it. In fact they even contain a guide on how you can treat your slaves (Not a jot or tittle, Christians. Not a jot or tittle…).

Moreover, in what context is it alright to stand there, arms folded, and allow nine million children under the age of five to die every year when you have the power to stop it? By the time you finish reading my post, several children will have died in terror and agony. In what context is this alright? How will their experience turn them into butterflies?

Continued…

…Continued

<<How does an atheist interpret what is good and what is evil?>>

By using the same faculties Muslims and Christians use when determining which parts of their holy books to ignore or explain away because they’re immoral, only we just cut out the unnecessary additional step of trying to make our morality fit with texts written by people who still thought the earth was flat. Do you really think that the Israelites got to Mount Sinai thinking that rape, theft and murder were acceptable forms of behaviour? There aren’t many in the western world who actually get their morality from the Qur’an (or Bible, for that matter) and those who do are blowing themselves up.

<<Returning to the main point, the atheist critique of the “God Hypothesis” is flawed. It fails to recognise that it includes the Hereafter and does not comprehend the nature of success under the hypothesis.>>

No. It simply recognises that the sadomasochistic style of suffering, that we see in the Abrahamic religions, would be unnecessary if a god existed; that the suffering would be the result of a god who had failed; and that a god who allows us to endure the suffering that its own failures cause - without ever asking us if we even want to be a part of his celestial dictatorship to begin with - is either impotent or evil. No acknowledgement of a hereafter is needed.

yes your right..aj..god dont need sufferance
but it seems men..do..thats why they NEED to be here/now
till..they wake up..to..that..one..simple fact.

<<..There's no reason we couldn't all be taken up to heaven now as perfect beings...>>

doy..you realise..what all..them..insane suffering fools would turn..heaven..into

think..oh..son..of of/man

<<>.What do the lessons in this life prove..>>

they dont prove anything..the validate
wether we are ready..tolove.grace/mercy[byfirst giving..it]

or reject god..and good
and get a chance to repent..[sort..themselves/out]..in.that default/place..of darkness..[because some are insane enough..to../reject..the love/light/mercy/grace..thus they created..for them-selves..their own..personal/ hell

[hell..isnt eternal
merely..infernal..[internal]

<<if we’re going to be perfect beings when we enter heaven anyway?>>

yes..in/time..we all.shall..see the light
[but..it takes..some/longer than..others[judus
for example..spent 1900 years..in..hell][jesus only 3 days]

and then..suddenly..we get iyt..we..realize..
love of other..begets more love..but hate..of other..begets hate/fear begets fear..etc

grace begets grace..mercy begets mercy

god..would agree..<<There’s no reason this unnecessary step..>>

but alas...menare toodumb torecognize a good offer*

..this sentence alone..would..[for ezam-le]..keep/you out of heaven..<<unless Allah wants to watch a few trip-up between now and the end, and suffer eternal torment for it>>

its cause of thoughts like that..we need earthy..incarnation
then hell..to..work/off the earthy dross

this classic/redemptive..free/book
explains..it's various/steps,,via a..biography
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

oh..and the reason..for all/them..dead kids
mate you wouldnt send a dog..down..to..earth..if you didnt need to

why keep/them..in/this material/hell..longer than..needed
had they..stayed any longer they would retard..their spiritual growth/curve.

you are allowing death..to appear a bad.thing
material..death..is a blessing..it means you served your time*

the same payment[wage][graCE/ETERNAL]..
REGARDLESS OF HOW LONG YOU WERE INCARNATE...

[sorry..didnt..intend to..yell]

death..dont..mean dead

my..final/re-edit..of post..extracted..from..lamb-island thread

Everyone who has ever tried..to use prayer..to request something,
has experienced.what appears to be failure...This is not only true in connection with..specific things which/might be harmful,..at/this time/place.. but..also in connection..with requests which are strictly..in line with this/course.

The latter, in particular, might be incorrectly interpreted as “proof” that the course/does not mean what it says.

[But you must remember.that the course does state,..and does..say..REPEATEDLY,..that its purpose..of acim..is..that..the suns..of greatness..[in/other]..ESCAPE FROM FEAR.

Let us suppose, then,..that what your request/of the Holy Spirit..IS what you really/want,...but..that YOU ARE STILL AFRAID OF IT. Should this be the case, your ATTAINMENT..of it..would no longer BE..what you want,..even if IT is...[for god..to create..it would mean..REALLY..making that hurtful..real.

gods not going..to create hurtful/illusions
This accounts for.,.the why of how..CERTAIN/'SPECIFIC FORMS of healing..are not achieved,..[even though the STATE of healing IS..assured..once the illusions drop/from our heart.]

It..frequently happens..that an individual asks/for
physical healing,..because he is fearful OF..BODILY HARM...However, at the same time,..if he WERE healed physically,..the threat tohis thought-system ..would be considerably MORE fearful..[to him]..than its physical/EXPRESSION.

In this case,..he is not really asking..for RELEASE from fear,
but for the..removal of a symptom..WHICH HE HAS..accorded reality..to..[personally/SELECTED.]

This request is,..therefore,
NOT for/any true healing at all.
[recall/healing..is simply correction..of error]

[error cannot heal error]

The Bible emphasizes..that ALL prayers are answered,
and this..must be..regarded..as true,..[if no/effort is wasted...is the truism]..

The very fact..that one has asked..the Holy Spirit for ANYTHING,..will
ensure a response...But it is..*equally certain..that no response, given..[by the Holy Spirit,].will..EVER be one which would INCREASE fear.

It is even possible..that His answer..
was not..heard [by the questioner]..at all.

It is IM-possible,..however, that...any question..will be lost.
There are many answers..which..you have already received,.but have NOT YET HEARD.

I..[jesus]..assure you ..that they are waiting
for you...It is indeed true..i..reassure you..that no effort is wasted.

jesus/continues..page202
http://miraclevision.com/acim/urtext/acim-urtext-2003-upe-ready-edition.pdf

AJ Philips
You say:
<<'Context' is an old apologetic pulled by Christians too, and it doesn't work.>>

I not sure what to make of your statement that I'm "pulling" an "old apologetic". Can you elaborate on what it is that you think doesn't work and why?

Wow. Really, grateful?

<<I not sure what to make of your statement that I'm "pulling" an "old apologetic". Can you elaborate on what it is that you think doesn't work and why?>>

I just posted a few hundred words explaining precisely that.

The 'context' argument is a classic argument frequently used by Christians to explain-away the fact that (mainly) Deuteronomy and Leviticus contain some dreadful laws and condone some awful things. An amusing video by a popular counter-apologist, making fun of the Christian use of it, can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o. As a Muslim, I think you'll appreciate it.

As for elaborating on why it doesn't work. I'm not sure what more I could say. The problem of evil is two-fold: on the one hand, evil things happening to people and your god allows them too (and for no good reason too, by the way); on the other hand, we have a god who is apparently evil in the sense that he allows so many to live and die in such horrifying terror and agony that it would embarrass the most psychopathic killer.

Perhaps if you tried to answer the questions I posed to you in my last post - even just to yourself - you would see why your arguments don't work. So, again, I ask you: in what context is slavery okay?

context..of..couirse is vital[the vidio]..begins..with/many..nice things..from the new testiment..that bought..THE NEW law..[love god by loving other]..

why ya think jesus came for..bur..to clean/up..the muddle
of the mosaic/laws..even jews couldnt follow..[written/by an egyptian..'adoptive royal']..who simply repeated..as if law..what he no doubt..learned..from egyptians..

regardless..JESUS..did come..did deliver the NEW/law
but the new law,,couldn't fit into..the old whine skins

jews..take the law..RATHER..seriously..they SPECIFICALLY..rate
their leaders..toughly[areal sharron..still lies in a coma..for example..[why]..simply..for trying to make peace][their tough/ enough..on all..BUT ESPECIALLY..upon the priests..[FOR WHO THIS specific/LAW=[levi..21;..was..L.A.W...law[levi=the priest/law.

[to whom..much was given..MUCH was to be expected]

as for the proverbs thing..[gods law is a shield
what else you expect]..these were tough timee

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=proverbs+30

AJ Philips,

Before responding to your posts can i ask that you be upfront about your sources in regard to the teachings of Islam. Where does this stuff come from? Are your sources reliable and impartial? Do you think they have they done their homework?

In regard to slavery, can i also ask what is your understanding of the nature of slavery? Are you saying that Islam encourages slavery?

As for the following statement:
<<As for elaborating on why it doesn't work. I'm not sure what more I could say. The problem of evil is two-fold: on the one hand, evil things happening to people and your god allows them too (and for no good reason too, by the way); on the other hand, we have a god who is apparently evil in the sense that he allows so many to live and die in such horrifying terror and agony that it would embarrass the most psychopathic killer.>>

I guess what you are saying is that: 'I don't believe in God in part because if there were a God then He would be allowing evil things to happen to people for no good reason.'

I'd respond by asking, IF there were a God how would you know that He was allowing evil to occur FOR NO GOOD REASON?

I don't dispute that evil things are happening to people. But for no good reason? Don't you mean for no good reason that YOU CAN SEE. The fact that you cann't discern a "good reason" doesn't mean there isn't one!

Furthermore, if God commits an evil does that imply that He is evil? Of course not. The parable of the butterfly or the amputated hand shows that one can intend good through an evil act. If the choice is between amputating the hand or allowing the gangrene to spread then the one who left the hand intact would be the evil one.

cont....

cont..

Finally, you asserted in your earlier post that God had stuffed things up because He created an imperfect world and somehow compounds the problem but not preventing evil. According to Islam, there is no imperfection, all is as it should. We are perfectly human::

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahih Muslim (2687)]

AJ, nothing you have said so far has come remotely close to undermining the coherence of Islam's teachings.

salaams

sorry about the previous rough post[i got visitors]

anyhow..aj..the bible was clearly..written..by process of rev-elation..
[as man..evolved..a concept..and bedded it into..their heart.. gradually..as we evolved..we got higher revelation..

you..will/note..the evolution..of the wisdom..of our father..bit byy bit..AFTER..the tree of knowledge..in..the garden[recall..abraham.. loved god so much..he heard/the demons..[ergo/ego]..calling on him to sacrifice..his son..[but thankfully..his heart softened..enough..to hear the angels..and conceived..the scapegoat..

then..mosus/noah/jonah/soloman/issia jesus mahamoud..[chrishna/luther/swedenberg...mary/baker-eddie..wesley/george fox..ENDLESS..is the many messengers..SENT..of god..to evolve the spirits..of mankind..to where..we now..

NOW..we can sit side by side with those listening..to devils...[and yet KNOW..for a certainty..they are as helpless to change our faith..as we could possibly..have in changing thyne.

see that..if god had kept us..[without the temptation.]..inthe garden
we would be like the indignant..[native],,still living by whim..of sun/wind.. thunder..and the many other..powers we accorded god hood to..since tiime was begun..

i see it as a progressive revelation..that reveals the miracle
of course 'my'..messenger said..he is the last one..[and there will be no othe..but..god must be fair..angels AS MUCH AS..demons..IN-spired..our IN-spiritation..into word.

i can read..the words..and KNOW..that voice..THE SAME voices..that inspired..the original..still reverberate.,.through-out time..but evenmore..the auther...now..ADDS..to the mind-meld..

[BUT..is limited..to the life programing..of my life..
as to/how far..our minds..can SYNCHRONIZE,..to[with]..that which i can comprehend..at this stage..of our spirit evolution..

[for example.. helen ..[who recorded jesus words..in the acim.. couldn't grasp..much...of/the technical..psychology..of the writings thus bill was needed..to complete that stage..of the revelation..in the later transcripts

much like swedenberg..got completely..immersed..by/his revelation
but later writers have waded through this encyclopedic ocean..and grasped wonderful insights..[i will add too./.that..evenif it hurts..ginn..of the highest-station..alone..revvealed..some of the best bits of the holy texts

ALL..the holy texts
because god must be fair..to both sides
its IMPORTANT..as its vital[key]..to validate it was by/of mens freewill..not of gods will.

the ego..here is key
[ego is..herd/or beast reactive-mind]
that..IS..the angelic as..,much/as the demonic..[yet we think..its us]

god loves the good..we all become..and there is the rub
greater good..needs a great evil..to..overcome
[see great evil..allows for higher good...
in ending it*..

[charity..is a result..of the[inner-]..urge to minimize
sufferance]but necessarily..sufferance proceeds relief

and..there is/the crux..where we stand today
the next step..[how to..unify..thiest/atheist]..without loosing the ESSENTIAL/qualities..of EITHER*[together..we reveal..the/greater good[god]

who..[dorkins*..and*..the/pope?]

some people..take things as signs
like recall the ice-man[grand inquizitor].?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl11.htm
then but a few signs
[thus be carefull..for what you pray for

'Iceland model: How to deal with bankers
should be standard for whole world'
http://xrepublic.tv/node/6566

Iceland Jails Former Bank Bosses
http://sorendreier.com/iceland-jails-former-bank-bosses/

http://investmentwatchblog.com/snowburst-5-to-6-feet-of-snow-in-upstate-new-york/

they say..a picture=1001..words

In Turkey, goats (still alive) coated with ICE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OW9jlnCjM8&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OW9jlnCjM8&feature=player_embedded

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/gorecicle.jpg
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/snow1.jpg

http://www.visibleorigami.com/2013/12/love-and-fear-and-heart-of-populace.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/12/andrew-p-napolitano/a-conspiracy-so-vast%E2%80%A8/

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/12/bankers-arrested-civil-war-averted.html

>>Ojnab,..<<..Please OUG can you write so we can all understand what you are saying,>>

clearly..not..<<

How do you know if you've never tried?

Cheers,

Tony

Hi Grateful,

<<Are you saying that Islam encourages slavery?>>

FYI


KUWAIT CITY // Salwa al Mutairi, a former parliamentary candidate, said in a video posted on You Tube last month that sex slaves should be legal and prisoners from war-torn countries, such as Chechnya, would make suitable concubines.

Ms al Mutairi said she asked Saudi muftis what the Islamic ruling was on owning sex slaves while on a trip to Mecca because she had a male colleague who was "young and something of a womaniser".

The mufti told her it is not haram, or forbidden, she said. "The context must be that of a Muslim nation conquering a non-Muslim nation, so these jawari have to be prisoners of war."

Jariya is an Arabic term meaning "concubine" or "sex slave". The plural of the word is jawari.

Ms al Mutairi said free women must be married with a contract but, with concubines, "the man just buys her and that's it. That's enough to serve as marriage".

The ruling was confirmed by "specialised people of the faith" in Kuwait, she said. "They said, 'That's right, the only solution for a decent man who has the means, who is overpowered by desire and who does not want to commit fornication, is to acquire jawari'."

Offices could be opened to run the sex trade in the same way recruitment agencies provide domestic labourers, Ms al Mutairi suggested.

"One of the countries where [I see this trade is possible] is Chechnya. The country is at war with another state, so there are some captives for sure. I say go and buy those captives, they might just die of hunger over there. I say go and buy them and sell them to merchants here in Kuwait who may otherwise commit a sin."

"I don't see anything wrong with it, nothing at all," she said, adding that the caliph Haroun al Rashid had one wife and more than 2,000 concubines in his possession when he died.

"SO THERE'S NO SHAME IN IT AND IT IS NOT HARAM, OUR SHARIA LAW ALLOWS IT," she said.
http://www.thenational.ae/world/middle-east/men-should-have-sex-slaves-says-female-kuwaiti-politicia

cheers tony..
sorry i was unclear..[to closed..minds]

but lets fix special agent provocateurs first

S.p-qr..mate..some/of you..follow talmudic law..]
yet others follow shhhharea..[thats much like the..zion/athiest..law]

yopurmasters..hjave the same thing
BUT noone talks about that either

the godless have no conscience
besides..blackmailing our leaders..[with kids]

anyhow..lets judge them..later.

lets see..
what laws..do settlers..
in..dark/places..[inothers lands/with duel passorts
diplomatic immunity..etc..[what HOLY text..do they..live under?

talmudic [sic*].law?

http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
quotations;..from the Soncino Edition
of the Talmud,(Book]

SANHEDRIN,..55b-55a:.."What is meant by this?...

Rab said:..Pederasty with a child
below nine years of age..is not deemed
as pederasty..with a child above that.

(footnotes)"..The reference is to..
the passive..'subject'/..*victim..of sodomy

UNDER NINE

now lets..go younger

YEBAMOTH,60b..*...Rabbi.Ramanos who conducted an/inquiry..and..'found'..in it

the daughter of a..'proselyte'..
who was under..the age of three years[and one day]...,

and Rabbi declared her/eligible*
to live with a priest."

(footnotes)"..A proselyte..under the age of three years
and one day may...be married by a priest...

*And was married..to a priest.

(i.e.,permitted to continue/to live with her'husband'."]

[not gods mozaic..law..like in./.the bible

(Book)

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp%3Fdiscussion%3D3071%26page%3D0&sa=U&ei=Mk6eUp36Ks2ZlQWzn4D4DA&ved=0CBgQFjAJ

Child sacrifice..was practised in ancient times..as offering to the Ammonite god Molech..a worship of natural fertility..*which was forbidden*by the laws of Israel. See Leviticus 18:21; 20:1 - 5; 1Kings 11:7; 2 Kings 1717; 21:6; 27:10; Jeremiah 32:35; Ezekiel 16:21.

[is/this..what the settlers,,[under..THE ATHEIST[secular]..star..are doing..in the deserts..of/the..lampstand..[the/fox/in..the hen-house?]

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2994&page=0

tell me...ever heard..of the/clean hands doctrine?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15664&page=0

anyhow tony
was that 'clear' enough?

grateful,

You appear to be in desperate search for some wriggle room.

<<Before responding to your posts can i ask that you be upfront about your sources in regard to the teachings of Islam.>>

You are merely shifting the goal posts here. I have said nothing about Islam per se and nor do I need to. You claimed that your god is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent - the problem of evil follows from that. Even if you could demonstrate that Islam, the Qur'an and every Muslim were absolutely opposed to slavery, it still wouldn't matter. Slavery still exists and so does the problem of evil until you remove at least one of the omni’s above, but then you have the problem of a god who is not really a god. As Epicurus said:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Your butterfly parable doesn’t work because it ignores the fact that an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its goals, or could skip the suffering part altogether. It is the equivalent of excusing a parent who locks their child up under the stairs and tortures them as a method of helping them to grow as a person.

Inflicting evil, or allowing it to happen when it could be prevented, is evil no matter who inflicts or allows it, and your appeal to the mysteriousness and incomprehensible infinite wisdom of Allah doesn’t get you around this. This is how I can know that Allah permits evil for no good reason, because there is never a good reason to permit it. Your amputation analogy doesn’t work for the same reasons.

Continued…

…Continued

<<I guess what you are saying is that: 'I don't believe in God in part because if there were a God then He would be allowing evil things to happen to people for no good reason.'>>

That’s one of many reasons. The main reason, though, is because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.

<<…you asserted in your earlier post that God had stuffed things up because He created an imperfect world and somehow compounds the problem but not preventing evil. According to Islam, there is no imperfection, all is as it should. We are perfectly human>>

This is a tautology and a paradox. It sounds poetic, but is essentially meaningless. In other words, we are ‘perfectly imperfect’. How can one possibly be ‘imperfectly imperfect’?

<<Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahih Muslim (2687)]>>

This reminds me of my daughter, when she was 18 months, who’d spill her drink so she could say, “Uh oh!”, or hit the dog so she could cuddle him better. Basically, it’s saying that Allah is an egotistical megalomaniac who has the maturity of a toddler.

You make excuses for your god doing and allowing things that you yourself would never dream of doing, or tolerating others doing, by simply appealing to the incomprehensible. Yet despite this incomprehensibility, you are quite happy attribute the good to your god: if Allah helps someone find their keys because they preyed, then Allah is good; but when he allows millions to die in terror and agony every year, he’s just mysterious. It’s utter madness.

"Religion allows sane people, in the millions, to believe what only a crazy person could believe alone." - Sam Harris

OUG, "the Godless have no conscious", they have far more conscious than any person who is writing rubbish like yourself.Religion is a curse on the world as it is and the stupid rules and regulations they make are absolutley ridiculous, Religion in India forbids eating Garlic, Jehova Witness, do not take someone elses blood, SDA, don't play competitive sport, Catholics not allowed to practise contraception, Muslims,women are second rate beings, and the list goes on and on.
We Atheist's do not have the hang ups that all religious people have and are far more loving and caring than any church going person, we would prefer the world to be rid of relgious wars, concocted by religious cranks.
What I would like you to do is physically show me a soul, spirit etc, then I will start to believe what is written in all of those man made religious books.

OUG,

<<the godless have no conscience>>

Alas poor OUG, we are all Godless.

But there has always been some among us who have been wont to mistaken the shadows cast by the camp fire as the movement of spirits. Such shadows, however, have only ever been reflections of ourselves. Which is why all gods projected by such seers are flawed version of ourselves -- And your own Church of Latter Day Essenes is no exception.

There are truly more things in in heaven and earth, dear OUG, than were every dreamt of in your philosophy
______________________________

AJ Philips

Great post.

I also agree with your brilliant post AJ Philips, it is very well written, wished I could do likewise.

onager..CLEVER..quote..mining
but mate..had you read..further..you would see..that/you
and special./agent.provocateur[qr]..or sap..for short..

have distracted away..from the REAL..reason..for..the words..[child abuse.. specifically..tamudic facilitated..sodomy

[of ANY child..UNDER..9years[and a day]..old

Child sacrifice..was practiced in ancient times..AS..MUCH..as today*> ..as offering..to..*Molech.. the Ammonite diety..[or mad]..for short]

a worship of natural.*fertility..*which was*..*SPECIFICALLY forbidden.. *by the laws..of Israel..[under/the..noahtide..laws.. of..my tribe..of levi]..and many/other god creeds..besides.

See Leviticus 18:21; 20:..1-5;
1Kings 11:7;..2 Kings 17:17; 21:6; 27:10;

Jeremiah 32:35; Ezekiel 16:21...

AND EVEN..the GOSPEL..see matthew..23*[all]..5;14-48..james..2/3/4

ANYHOW..lets..vent a little
then quote..the quote..you.and sap[qr]..
are/trolling..[DISTRACTING},..others AWAY*..from..

PLEASE..NOTE*..AND RESPOND*

what laws..do settlers..
in..dark/places..[in..others lands/with duel passports
diplomatic immunity..etc..LIVING..under the talmud..law..in deserts..[unseen]

[what HOLY text..do they..live under?
talmudic [sic*].law?

http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm
some..quotations;..from the Soncino Edition
of/the Talmud,(Book]

SANHEDRIN,..55b-55a:..
"What is meant by this?...

Rab said:..Pederasty with a child//below nine years of age..is not deemed/..as pederasty..with a child above that.

(footnotes)"..The reference is to..
the passive..'subject'/..[I SAY..*victim}..*..of sodomy

SOD..you bloke..its ok..too ignore
sodomy..upon..little..ones..*UNDER NINE.!

YOU..LOT..[the..seemingly..GODLESS]..defending the indefensible
by Detraction..just like..you..AND S.A.P[qr]....are doing here/now..[sic*]

BUT>>IT GEtS EVEN WORSE*
full..[not..just..the MINED/quote..continues

<<now lets..go EBEN..younger

YEBAMOTH,60b..*...Rabbi.Ramanos who conducted an/inquiry..and..'found'..in it..the*..daughter of a..'proselyte'..
who was.,,*under..the age*of three years..[and one day]...,

and.Rabbi declared her/eligible*..to live/with a priest."

(footnotes)"..A proselyte..under*..the age of three years
and one..day may...be..*married by a priest...

*And..*was married..to a priest.

(i.e.,permitted..to continue/to live..with her*..*'husband'."]

[DO..YU0..[pair..of useful/idiots..[godless fools]..NOT GET>..IT..?

satan..is putting the spin..[DETRACTive/spin]..into..your every mindless..even pathetic..mined/quote/post..[but as..the koran says..those god wishes to./..destroy..he first makes insane]

whether..or not.thats..true..i dont..want/to know.
[i couldn't..believe..it..till today*..AND..YOUR CLEVER AJ..three-way..may..have driven..confirmation..of it away*]

[only..it wernt god..its satan...[AND/..HIS..useful/idiots..[no offense..intended..[but who reads..my posts/let..alone understands them..anyway...right]

CERTAINLY..not you pair
jesus..knows..god..loves..you..anyhow..sadly..so/do..i.

I've come along to this discussion rather late
in the piece, however I read the author's article
with great interest and the comments that followed.

Isn't there enough hatred in the world?
Isn't there enough despair? Don't you get the feeling
that something is fundamentally wrong at times?
It isn't just the mess we see on our TV screens at
night, the wats, the gangs, the violence or the drugs.

I can fully understand the author's wish to look inward.
And I can understand what he is trying to do and I wish
him well. The antidote to what is fundamentally wrong is
the cultivation of what is fundamentally right.

cont'd ...

My apologies for the typo.
It should be the wars, not the wats.

<<Isn't there enough hatred in the world?
Isn't there enough despair? Don't you get the feeling
that something is fundamentally wrong at times?
It isn't just the mess we see on our TV screens at
night, the wats, the gangs, the violence or the drugs>>

Ah yes...why can't we all just get along?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPMmC0UAnj0

SPQR, I am please that you used that article about a former Kuwaiti parliamentarian because it exemplifies the hypocrisy of many atheists. On the one hand, they claim that their disbelief is evidence-based. On the other hand, they readily betray an ignorance of the beliefs thy are critical of.

AJ for example, is concerned not to disclose his own sources in regard to the teachings of Islam and yet he is prepared to say the main reason for his disbelief is “because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.”

And what sort of evidence do atheist look for? Well in the case of SPQR its a former Kuwaiti parliamentarian who claims to have received endorsement from mufitis to start up a business in sex slaves. What an incredibility scientific approach. No wonder AJ is keen to side-step the issue ... an issue he raised in the first place.

For those who are interested in the evidence SPQR failed to find in his 'impartial and thorough investigation' of the issue, i give you the following:

The Prophet said:
"Whosoever kills his slave: he shall be killed. Whosoever imprisons his slave and starves him, he shall be imprisoned and starved himself, and whosoever castrates his slave shall himself be castrated."

The Prophet said:
"Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them."

The Prophet said:
"Not one of you should [when introducing someone] say “This is my slave”, “This is my concubine”. He should call them “my daughter” or “my son” or “my brother”. "

cont..

cont....

Furthermore, Islam encouraged most forcefully their emancipation

Abu Hurayra said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said to me, 'If anyone frees a Muslim slave, for every limb of his, Allah will free one of his own limbs from the Fire until he is set free by his setting free of the slave."

For details there is a long essay by a true scholar responding to the the question: “How is it that Islam, a religion inspired by God for the good of humanity, allows slavery?” :http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=712&CATE=115

Finally, rulings in regard to the emancipation of slaves that protect their property, kin and ensure they are not left destitute : http://spl.qibla.com/Hadith/H0001P0038.aspx

However, this is not the evidence that fits the narrative that SPQR prefers so it is ignored. Instead, we are offered the “fatwa” of a former Kuwait parliamentarian steeped in ignorance.

grateful

the 'prophet ' also had many wives including a very young one.

SPQR & Onjab,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm humbled by them.

grateful,

<<On the one hand, [atheists] claim that their disbelief is evidence-based. On the other hand, they readily betray an ignorance of the beliefs thy are critical of.>>

The claim of theists that atheists reject as unsupported by the evidence, is the claim that a god or gods exist. Belief or disbelief of any other claims that follow this claim are either on hold until the original claim can be supported, or are rejected because they depend on the existence of that god being demonstrated.

If, on the other hand, you are suggesting that the evidence of your god's existence is hidden in the details of Islam or the Qur'an, or that it can be found cumulatively after having studied Islamic teachings in-depth, then either your supposedly omniscient and omnipotent god is somehow a lousy communicator, or he is not very interested in reaching so many of us anyway, in which case why should we bother?

<<AJ for example, is concerned not to disclose his own sources in regard to the teachings of Islam...>>

Oh, but I did. My source was you. It was your claim about the god of Islam that I was responding to. I have "sidestepped" nothing.

<<...and yet he is prepared to say the main reason for his disbelief is “because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.”>>

It is not the job of atheists to run around looking for evidence of gods in the face of no prima facie evidence. Nor should they have to study every religion in-depth. Does your rejection of the other 4000 or so gods that you don't believe in result from having studied them all?

<<And what sort of evidence do atheist look for?>>

I don't know what evidence would convince me of the existence of a god. It would be arrogant of me to assume that I knew. What I do know, however, is that if a god did exist, then they'd know what it would take to convince me of their existence.

I feel a little bleak ...

Most here I suspect, recognise and admire the Dali Lama. He acts from the principles of a religion few here I would hazard believe.

Everald Compton is a good man endeavouring to achieve something worthy.

Fethullah Gullen is a good man endeavouring to achieve something worthy.

Does it matter what their religion is if they identify and assume the best parts of it?

We witness and criticise, as we should, truly ghastly representatives of religion. Conversely we should recognise good men of their faith, irrespective of whether we believe in any god.

Perhaps it would be better if religion was not mentioned, but "unfortunately" this is the credential both these good men fly. But it is also a necessary credential in their work for interfaith dialogue.

Whatever we think of religion, Interfaith dialogue is vitally important in today's world of contesting, even violently conflicting religious belief systems

AJ Philips, you write,

<<“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Your butterfly parable doesn’t work because it ignores the fact that an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its GOALS, or could skip the suffering part altogether. It is the equivalent of excusing a parent who locks their child up under the stairs and tortures them as a method of helping them to grow as a person.>>

You are right in that the issue is not so much what Islam’s position is on an issue such as slavery but its existence. But your argument collapses as soon as one asks: What goals? What goals would you have God seeking?

In other words, the validity of your statement that “an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its GOALS” can not be evaluated until we know what you mean by the goals that God is supposed to be achieving. In other words, we cannot discuss whether there is any better way ...a “better system” as you put it…, until we have a clear understanding of what the objective or purpose of our existence is supposed to be under the “God hypothesis”.

cont..
AJ,

While you ponder this question, lets consider what you mean when you say the “main reason" for your disbelief " is because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.”

How do you treat the evidence? In response to my statement that “according to Islam, there is no imperfection, all is as it should. We are perfectly human”, you state:

<<This is a tautology and a paradox. It sounds poetic, but is essentially meaningless. In other words, we are ‘perfectly imperfect’. How can one possibly be ‘imperfectly imperfect’?>>

Of course i didn’t say we are “perfectly imperfect”. I said we are “perfectly human”. You shamelessly change my wording to suit your own argument. This is dishonest. So much for the impartial scientific approach of an atheist.

The shallowness of your argument is also betrayed by your resort to childish Dawkinesque diatribe towards the end of your post (or is it inspired by Sam Harris?). Yet, you evidently have your admirers, including your muck-raking mate SPQR for whom your approach is a noble example of atheist critique. Let’s stick to rational, honest and mature discourse.

i see no..reason..to/rethink..or repost..my reply..to..one..of the more thoughtful..atheists..[aj]..here..[plus..the ass...and/the sap][who/i..MUST..thank..specifically][their pushing..helped..me/re-think]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786#274098

who..to/be fair..arnt,,dumb..only deceived
[im also pleased..that danielle..posted..a great post..at this thread

i especially..need to thank..the author..for the topic
and am gratefull..to..his namesake..[and foxie..[dearest]..of all]..i hope..your TWO..operation's..goes well..[my/belle]

it..is clear..that some..neurons..in my/brain..[thus gods brain]..
and gods brain..includes your 'brains'..collectively..we know everything..there is to/be known[both..in fiction..and reality]

now..none..of you/know..me..and at best we only know things about you..because..the opportunity..to communicate..but briefly..happen..as we went along our life path..like a smell/neuron..briefly..joining with a...taste neuron..[like lsd]

some..really believe..to know..the reason..for life=nothing..
this is because in/their role..of life..they didnt..live it[thus some know..the joys of parenting..[others the misery]

[why this is so..is because thats..not their reason..for being..[some parts of gods/brain..are simply there..for amusement..others there to think..yet others there run the heart..and nothing else..others to dream..somehow..i got the ..dirty end..of the stick.. [him most rejected/see issiah]

baring the grandchildren..[for example]..2..who love me true
the rest of the world[including my children..and life partner..have rejected..me..completely]..but i..know by my life..they too will reject..me..[in time]

for example..only last night..i was told off..by the eldest
for 'stealing'..'their;..food..[maybe..in total[over the last 6 months]..of 4 spoons..of butter..a cup..of milk..8packrets of crisps..and about 28 briskets/lollies/sweets

they have mortgaged..my house..[over spend credit they havnt got]and now..live here rent free..but do pay utilities/rates..yet individually..they are good nice people[but lately..they have been gossiping..about their father[to many people..plus..in laws..who/have never met,me]..[maybe even online..but especially each other/..but i have been too busy trying to save the world..to worry about it..for a second..

till..last night..when it became clear..[and the grandaughter neuron
connected but briefly..with the grandfather neuron]..and i saw the light][i say it now..because..in/time..it will inevitably come-out..because my story..my life..like yours..*is no secret..to spirit

collectively..we are god finding out about..god
that is what..this neuron..KNOWS..[not]..BECAUSE..it isnt a literate part of gods mind..that..NEEDS..to know..but others are]..but the others are too busy..gossiping..about what the other neurons are doing..

[now much of the gossip..is imagined]..and
god being omnipresent..has all this ILLUSORY junk..in front/of mind..too..[were i more clever..i could fictionalize/rationalize/instead of internalize..BUT the lies..run globally..[for god]

life..is just gods way..of sorting the good/use-full/living loving[light]..from the bad..[illusions/delusions hates/wasted effort..darkness..etc]..god..shall/make..pearl..from..even this miserable lie..f..

these atheist..parts of every brain..dont care about the 'big picture'..their there simply..to do their..'thing'..and that,,is it

[they dont reason..they simply do as..they know[thats all.THEIR ,meant..to know]

mere automons..they are simply..adjoining..neurons..not being.,..in their looop..its like any group..[of specialists]..each simply doing..what god created them to be.

so why waste any thought..on it
why waste emotion..on nuthinness..why fight wars on nothing..

im..so over..the lot..of it..[its]..only..knowing death has no fix
and..in fact would make things far worse..because of the many neurons..that all ready know..who would simply join me in complete deletion..[if that were possable]..fortuitously..it isnt gods will[none can escape..not even..by death

and thats what..it is that really frightens..EVEN..the most cl;ever of you[if you could be honest about it]..its thy greatness you fear

but..god sends me his comforting neurons
but if these are delusion//please TELL..ME the PROOF*
i know god is real..and you art god..pleasse PROOVE..god is my delusion

please PROVE..death..ends this hell
and i will bother you no longer..JUST PROVE GOD DONT EZIST..im gone..[in a second]..

this hell could end?..PLEASE PROVE IT??

please..i cant bear the pain/burden..any..longer
im sick..of the lies..JUST THE FACTS MAAM..just the F'ACTS.

Hi Grateful,

<<re: Salwa al Mutairi --and sex slaves>>

What this illustrates is that your New Age --liberal reading of the Quran is very much a minority position. In fact, I would go as far as to say that what you practice is not Islam but Gratefulism.

It also illustrates is the chameleonic nature of Islam. If is in a minority position like currently in Oz you'll most often hear/see espoused a soft version of Islam . But when it is in a dominant position then its leaders will suddenly wake-up that:
-- the sex slavery of infidels is OK
-- Outlawing other places of worship is Ok.
--and a little later in the piece, (not peace!), killing infidels is OK

I noted your cheerpicking effort
1) One shouldn't imprison or starve slaves
2)One shouldn't overworked slaves
3)And one should call them brother or daughter

BUT WHAT YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN IS WHERE ISLAM OUTLAWS SLAVERY!

Here's some teachings you overlooked:
1) "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty." [Quran:33:50]

Note the words "WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN AS BOOTY"!

2) "Narrated Kuraib:the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, 'Do you know, O Allah's Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?' He said, 'Have you really?' She replied in the affirmative. He said, 'You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.'
[BUKHARI'S HADITH - Vol. 3-#765]

Here a woman frees a slave girl, but Muhammad says that she would have gotten more (heavenly) reward if she had given the slave one of her uncles, thus keeping the slave in slavery.

3) "Ibn Umar reported the prophet as saying: "If a slave marries without the permission of his master, his marriage is null and void." [ABU DAWUD'S HADITH #2074]

Cheers!

grateful,

If we’re going to have a productive discussion, then you’re really going to have keep track of where we’re at a lot better than this.

<<But your argument collapses as soon as one asks: What goals?>>

Um, the goals you mentioned:

"Sometimes struggles are exactly what we need in our lives. If Allah allowed us to go through our lives without any difficulties it would cripple us and we would never be able to fly!" (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820#273955)

I assumed the bit about flying was in reference to becoming better people (hence the, “…tortures them as a method of helping them to grow as a person”, in my analogy). If not, then please clarify.

Either way, though, my argument still doesn’t collapse because (as I pointed out before, in not-so-many-words) by insisting that we cannot know the mind of Allah, you are committing the special pleading fallacy and are ‘having your cake and eating it too’ by simultaneously assuming that you can know his mind enough to attribute the good to him. You change your story when it suits you. That’s not how a rational mind works.

<<In other words, the validity of your statement that “an omnipotent and omniscient god should be able to devise a better system to achieve its GOALS” can not be evaluated until we know what you mean by the goals that God is supposed to be achieving.>>

Bzzzt!

Furthermore, you conveniently overlook my second point: that Allah could skip this infliction of evil upon us (or his apparent indifference to it) by just taking the ones he wants with him up to heaven now, and doing away with those he already knows won’t get there. Being omniscient, Allah already knows everything that’s going to happen anyway, so letting it play out is both pointless and cruel. And as I pointed out previously, if we’re going to be made perfect when we go to heaven anyway, then there is no point in any of the turning-into-butterflies that we do here on earth.

Continued…

…Continued

<<…lets consider what you mean when you say the “main reason" for your disbelief " is because there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the existence of a god.” … How do you treat the evidence?>>

I’ll get to your ‘exhibit A’ in a moment, but it’s worth pointing out here that even if you could bring into question my treatment of evidence, it still wouldn’t negate any lack of evidence on your behalf. This is a red herring.

<<Of course i didn’t say we are “perfectly imperfect”. I said we are “perfectly human”. You shamelessly change my wording to suit your own argument. This is dishonest.>>

Let’s go back a bit then, shall we.

We were talking about the imperfection of our world - which is meaningless in this context without reference to the imperfection of humans. Apparently understanding this, you reply by saying that there is no imperfection according to Islam because everything (imperfect as it is) is the way it was intended to be, and that we are “perfectly human“. (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820#274012). In other words, nothing is imperfect because Allah wanted it to be imperfect, and humans are perfectly imperfect.By ignoring the context (ironically) and focusing only on what we had *literally* said, you have created a strawman argument. You quote-mined. Now THAT is dishonest.

<<The shallowness of your argument is also betrayed by your resort to childish Dawkinesque diatribe towards the end of your post … Let’s stick to rational, honest and mature discourse.>>

Until you can demonstrate why my final comments were a “diatribe” that was “childish” and something that I needed to “resort” to (implying vacuousness on my behalf), this is nothing but an ad hominem attack.

Let's get this straight, grateful: you claim to want rational, honest and mature discussion, yet so far, you are the only one who has resorted to dishonesty (by suggesting that I was sidestepping earlier, and now - ironically - accusing me of dishonesty) and an assortment of logical fallacies, including ‘goal post shifting’, ‘special pleading’, and now the ‘red herring’, the strawman, and the ad hominem.

Hmmm…

sap
your reply is here
aj..yours is there too

and the ass..you too
[its ten..hours..till..i can reply..any further..

..on..this thread
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786#274128

of course..the lamb-island thread..remain available
[im..over explaining]..for now...[im..gutted][by the recent/ignorance's revealed..by good people..[mine..not yours]

then there is..the joy..threat
but their at earlier posts

im..not into new topic's..[even..though..i..know just saying that..there is one with my name onit]

last but by no means least..im not grateful*
but gratefull..know..im..grateful..too

bless you my other..[s]
looks like the great southlands..[nor the cyber realm]..dont get..the message

so im..going to.do..a jonah
[run away hide play old music/..LOUD*]
debating whether to..go walkabout..but im resisting the spirit/urgings

yours joshua*nine

anyhow..have a new LINK*..for you[..the inside scoop?]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786&page=0#274098

anyhow..i..know you dont follow links
so..i will re-post..the EARLIER link..info*

enjoy..please write something..call..me mad...anything
i..notified govt..of this day...in....1996..[their ready..if you are!

but lets examine
<<..1)..One shouldn't imprison..or starve slaves>>

nor workers/nor beasts..nor...servants/nor...parents..
nor*god..nor..your children/your-old..infirm..nor imbecile..
nor..beast..THAT>>YE DID,..to/the..least/was done..to the most

[got..it*now...?..[indeed..DO NOT>>ABUSE*..ANY BODY]

not/even criminals..imf-fidels..nor/the godless..bwankers..or the soft-dic/press..THEY ALL*..have their uses..BUT ALL..*ARE sustained..to live..OF*..GOD HIMSELF..

GET THAT?
[that YOU..do/to..the least..ye do..to
him

..DO YOU HEAR ME..*debt-slave*
peasant..soon..to/be serf?

glory hound's?...you
slave..*to porn/sex booze/-drugs ego/race/creed/righteousness..godlessness?

<<..2)One shouldn't..[have[..overworked*slaves.>>be they..THY*wife..nor husband..[in..holy-day..or serving other
while..they feast/pray/play/pay..no child..nor debt slave..[nor hookers..nor blogger's..nor serfs

NO_ONE..not/even..each..other*

AM..I..being..CLEAR HEAR?

<<3)And one..should..*call them brother..or daughter>>

*HUGE_KEY*
read-on*..[cut from end

3)..<<."If a slave marries..without the permission/of his master,
his marriage is null and void."..[ABU DAWUD'S HADITH #2074]>>

OK..THERE YOU GO..recall..great*full..SAYING..to you
you SHALL..not*say SLAVE..[where did/that word.,come from?

Here's some..teachings you overlooked:
1) "Prophet,"{is one who..receives/revelation..
FROM outside sources..ie from herd-mind..[ego]..from demons
as much as angels..*SO MUCH DEPENDS..ON..y'OUR THOUGHTS..[more of the SAME thinking..shall come]

dowries=respecting,,the value..of the loss
a high dowry..indicates..YOU FEEL..they are worth..MORE*

[i feel your loss..and respect..the gift of myne[and thyne]..its old school/stuff..[we used to/do it/too]..but heck..i wouldnt give you two cents for,,far..too many..of you

[but..THANKFULLY;.to god your BEYOND values]

MANY XTIANS LOOT>>war booty."
at least the muslims..can find the CAUSE..of the error

<<[Quran:33:50]..Note the words.."WHOM GOD..HAS/GIVEN AS BOOTY"!>>

im..sure its an error/of men..[translation..SOME-how]..not the messenger

<2)..edited]..He said, 'You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl)..to one of your maternal uncles.'
[BUKHARI'S HADITH - Vol. 3-#765]..>>

ie gifted..the treasure..as booty..[in..lue of respectful dowry]
ass jesus would have said/it..its better TO SERVE OTHER*[not your self]..

but clearly..the MESS-ANGER..has been misheard..if you take him to/.say anything else..[islam..means peace/justice/grace/mercy]

hint hint
jesus told me..the same thing..yet..if your..being a jackass
or simply..serving the masters agenda..i call..a spade a spade..
not a brrr-other..[even..if..JESUS himself said..the SAME*..re the money/changing thieves

THE POOR you will have with/you*..ALWAYS*

BUT WHAT..YOU HAVEN'T..SHOWN IS..WHERE..present..[western/REALITY OUTLAWS SLAVERY...by works!

your being..enslaved..UNDER DEBT*/to..DEBT..as we speak

Cheers!
yushi-nine

Why We Are Afraid, A 1400 Year Secret, by Dr Bill Warner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Qpy0mXg8Y

I think slight correction is due, grateful.

In reading your question, "How do you treat the evidence?, I had apparently missed the all important "the" in that question, and subsequently, had responded as if you were bringing my treatment of evidence in general into question. I would be embarrassed about this blunder had it not been for the fact that, in making such a mistake, I was being generous by giving you more credit than you were actually due.

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the teachings and tenets of Islam are not evidence for it. They are simply claims, and unsubstantiated claims at that. Whether or not we are "perfectly human" is not evidence of anything.

To think that the doctrine of your faith is also evidence for it is painfully circular.

Amazingly, you don't seem to understand what evidence is. Nor, therefore, would I expect that you could possibly appreciate the extent of evidence that would be required to demonstrate such a grand claim as the existence of a god. Forget anecdotal and testimonial evidence, we'd be talking a large and objectively determinable set of facts that only align with your belief.

Dear Grateful,

Late to this thread, I have just read your posts and thoroughly enjoyed reading how you bravely defend Islam - and if this isn't Islam but Gratefulism, so much the better because nobody can follow the exact same religious path anyway: strictly speaking, the only Muslim ever to live was Prophet Muhammad, peace-be-upon-him.

The so-called "problem of evil" doesn't exist, but only arise from improper use of language:

Yes, people have difficulty with pain and suffering, but that doesn't make pain evil, nor is pleasure necessarily good.
Only God is truly good [Mark 10:18] and there is no need or reason for God to conduct the world on the basis of the prejudices of humans.

Islam, as it is commonly understood (but please correct me if I'm wrong), is superior than atheism because it takes a longer-term approach, beyond the constraints of one's current life-time.

Yet, Islam still seems (to lay people like myself) to base its theology on longer-term reward-and-punishment, where reward for doing good corresponds to the human concept of pleasure and punishment for doing evil corresponds to the human concept of pain and suffering.

While that is quantitatively better then atheism, I fail to see the qualitative advantage:

Isn't heaven nothing but a larger-scale temptation and isn't hell nothing but a larger-scale place of purification? Then shouldn't we all say that hell is better than heaven?!

Eagerly awaiting your answers.

Under One Mullah,

This is in response to the parts of your post that I could translate:

1)<< but lets examine....One shouldn't imprison..or starve slaves...
nor workers/nor beasts..nor...servants/nor...parents..
nor*god..nor..your children/your-old..infirm..nor imbecile..
nor..beast..THAT>>YE DID,..to/the..least/was done..to the most
[got..it*now...?..[indeed..DO NOT>>ABUSE*..ANY BODY]
not/even criminals..imf-fidels..nor/the godless..bwankers..or the soft-dic>>

No. You haven't "got it" --the sacred writings of Islam say nothing like that. That's more like Deepak Chopra or Shirley MacLaine.

2) <<..<<."If a slave marries..without the permission/of his master,
his marriage is null and void."..[ABU DAWUD'S HADITH #2074]>>
OK..THERE YOU GO..recall..great*full..SAYING..to you
you SHALL..not*say SLAVE.>>

NO. It does not follow that because there were SOME --SOME --standards on how one should treat slaves that slavery didn't exist, or that other inhuman treatments were not meted out to slaves.

Next you will be inferring that because Islam talks of all humans being brothers or sisters there was no concept of infidel or dhimmi.

3) <<.Outlawing other places of worship is Ok..killing infidels is OK...the ,media told me so*>>

One question: how many legal churches are there is Saudi Arabia?

Read your posts is like piecing together one of those ancient scrolls which has fragmented and from which a lot of the segments appear to be missing. I've studied Mandarin, Japanese and Thai but none of them come close to your level of indecipherable.So unless you can communicate in something resembling standard English I am going to ignore your posts --I haven't got that much time to spend on translation.

_______________________________

Grateful appears to have gone to ground. The comments on this thread being too challenging to/for his cherished beliefs.

Yuyutsu,

I don’t know if you’ve been reading my comments on this thread (your comments to grateful would be pretty meaningless and clumsy if you hadn’t), but if you have, then this is a gross misrepresentation and oversimplification of what I have been saying:

<<The so-called "problem of evil" doesn't exist ... Yes, people have difficulty with pain and suffering, but that doesn't make pain evil, nor is pleasure necessarily good.>>

This does nothing to get grateful around the problem of evil; nor does it prove that the problem of evil doesn’t exist.

<<Only God is truly good [Mark 10:18] and there is no need or reason for God to conduct the world on the basis of the prejudices of humans.>>

And this simply commits the same logical fallacies, holds the same double standards, and displays the same cognitive dissonance as grateful’s comments do when he excuses his god for doing and allowing that which he would never do or allow himself.

Dear AJ Philips,

<<This does nothing to get grateful around the problem of evil;>>

I am not a Muslim and I sincerely want to learn about the Muslim view over this question - shall we allow Grateful to explain it in his/her way rather than mine?

<<nor does it prove that the problem of evil doesn’t exist>>

Obviously it was not my intention to prove anything, only to ask a question - "what makes your pleasures good and your pains evil?"

If you ask for my personal view, the artificial "problem of evil" only arises from the Abrahamic expectation for God to do the bidding of humans (who were "made in his image") and operate according to their feeble standards, likes and dislikes.

<<And this simply commits the same logical fallacies>>

That could only be a fallacy had God been doing anything, but as I mentioned already on various other threads, God does not exist hence He doesn't 'do' anything. While the naive notion of God existing and doing things is often useful, helping many people to come closer to Him, it does not represent objective reality.

<<holds the same double standards>>

I see nothing wrong about holding separate standards for men and for God.
In fact, not caring about political-correctness, I see nothing wrong even about holding separate standards for different men of different abilities.
So long as you believe (or otherwise perceive) that pain is evil, you should not inflict pain on others.

<<and displays the same cognitive dissonance>>

That's the healthiest cognitive dissonance I know. Why should we believe that our pleasures are good and our pains are evil? We have been indoctrinated like that by our genes as well as by our early education by parents who themselves were indoctrinated by their genes. Without some healthy dissonance, how will we ever escape this cult?

runner..said..<<..Isn't heaven nothing but..a larger-scale temptation and..
isn't hell nothing..but a larger-scale..place of purification?>>

its..never..going to/be that simple.

hell..is where we go..to do..those things church..and state
say we cant do..[say..]..those deadly sins..that are the deal- breaker..to giving love/grace/mercy[light]..to other..

[even those rejecting the light]
hells..or earthly..false perceptions..of what the were taught..we desired..[instead of the light/truth/love/grace mercy..etc].

<<Then shouldn't we all say..that hell is better..than heaven?!>>

yes..at the mid..levels..there isnt much difference
[where..the obvious*....sins have been left behind..yet..we..not ready..to forgive or believe...or stop doing those more 'unique'..yet kinky 'barely-sins'..like we think.[in the next life..to think..it is to do it]

<<This is in response[edited]:

1)edited..[indeed..DO NOT>>ABUSE*..ANY BODY]
not/even criminals..imf-infidels..nor/the godless..banker-canker's..or the soft-dic>>..

QUOTE..<<the sacred writings of Islam..say nothing like that.>>

SORRY>..MY BROTHER..but..MAHMOUD..[pbuh]..WAS the LAST*..messanger
BUT..that dont mean the..others teachings..are..to be forgotten.

if YOU ask me about/slaves..i reply you about slaves.

BUT..that dont ignore..OTHER forms OF servitude..
[like a debt-slave..or forced labor..by the state..[or a slave to/alcohol..or a SLAVE to sex..OR a slave..to anything..that removes..freewill.]

2)<<."If a slave marries..without the permission/.EDITED>>

MY..reply..<<OK..THERE YOU GO..
recall..grateful..SAYING..to you..you SHALL..not*say SLAVE.>>

YOU..<<NO...It does not follow that..because there were SOME..>>

see previous posts my beloved brother
there still..are MILLIONS briton alone..has tens/of THOUSANDS

YOU<<--SOME --standards on how one should treat slaves that slavery didn't exist, or that other inhuman treatments were not meted out to slaves...>>

yes then..the captain..RULED..over his ship..hard[to preserve the cargo]/../BUT today..we ARE all..under maritime law..and still DEBT slaves..and DRUGGIE serfs get punished]..only now we are many..ADDICTED thus enslaved..by govt

evil..isnt a problem..the poor have nothing
only the rich need fear evil

AJ/said<<.grateful’s comments do...excuses his god for doing and allowing..that which he would never do or allow himself.>>

yes..he is right..[its that..golden..rule
an..unsatisfied stomach..deafens the minds ear

give them what they LOVE wanting
and they get sick..of it..only then will..they YEARN..for better

but then..left them..have their fun*
let the kids sort themselves out..daddy KNOWS..
its all.going to turn out better..that way*..but first
we must learn the difference..between gods house and this dunny..
that..some materialists THINK..is hell on earth..[or rather soon will]

if we dont..get*..our chrissy present*
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786&page=0#274098

Yuyutsu,

The part of your post that I was addressing was not asking any questions.

<<…I sincerely want to learn about the Muslim view over this question - shall we allow Grateful to explain it in his/her way rather than mine?>>

It was making specific claims.

<<Obviously it was not my intention to prove anything…>>

Oh, “prove”, “provide support for” - whatever you want to call it - why else would you follow a statement (i.e. “The so-called "problem of evil" doesn't exist”) with a justification for that statement?

<<…only to ask a question - "what makes your pleasures good and your pains evil?">>

Then I would suggest that you frame your questions in the format of a question; particularly if they immediately follow a statement that they are going to co-incidentally look like a justification for.

<<…the artificial "problem of evil" only arises from the Abrahamic expectation for God to do the bidding of humans (who were "made in his image") and operate according to their feeble standards, likes and dislikes.>>

Well, my comments WERE directed towards a person who is defending the Abrahamic god.

<<That could only be a fallacy had God been doing anything, but as I mentioned already on various other threads, God does not exist hence He doesn't 'do' anything.>>

Well then, when you have finally moved beyond this default position of yours, and your notion of God has progressed to something that actually requires you to think and allows others to get a toehold on, then come back to me. In the meantime, the rest of us will wait for you to catch up.

<<I see nothing wrong about holding separate standards for men and for God.>>

Then, in light of this discussion, if you still hold that view when your theological position progresses to something that can be discussed, you are an immoral person.

<<Why should we believe that our pleasures are good and our pains are evil?>>

Why would you continue down this line when I have already told you that it is a misrepresentation and oversimplification of what I had said?

aj/quote..<<.you are an immoral person.>>

even..out of context.thats harsh..aj

in response to..what?

<<..I see nothing wrong about holding
separate standards for men and for God.>>

NEITHER..do i
why..shouldn't we EXPECT>>MORE..[the ideal]..from god?

[who knows all..COMPARED..to us his creation..but mere fleas..to the great dog..[read god]..[my father..knows no offense is intended... unlike mere men that would judge other]..

TO WHOM MUCH..IS GIVEN
sure..MUCH BETTER..is..only..[UNIQUELY}..to*BE EXPECTED.

but why do you..avoid the expose..MAHMOUD said dont say slave..say brother/sister..[he must be..measured/by his own measure]..re any use of that slave word.[re point 3..so conveniently..ignored

its indicative of status..ie some are slaves..to working/religion/atheist-izm...yet..others slaves to drugs..or addiction..to sex..YET others SLAVES to..debtors..[enslaved..by govt/busines/marriage/kids and banks]

OUG,

Please don’t quote me out-of-context. There were two very important conditions in that statement of mine.

<<even..out of context.thats harsh..aj>>

What do you mean “even”? Out of-context it would have been downright rude.

Anyone who attributes an edict to some other being, in order to excuse it from evil acts, is an immoral person. It’s that simple. There is nothing harsh in pointing that out.

The reason I made such a statement so boldly and unabashedly is because I don’t think that Yuyutsu, or even grateful, truly believe that evil acts are excusable just because they are committed by a god. They simply use mental gymnastics to avoid addressing the conundrum.

<<NEITHER..do I [see something wrong in holding separate standards for men and for God] why..shouldn't we EXPECT>>MORE..[the ideal]..from god?>>

We should, and that only strengthens my point. But I haven’t even needed to go there.

However, that’s not what we were talking about and if it was what Yuyutsu was implying, then he/she was merely slipping in a red herring.

>>Yes, people have difficulty with pain and suffering, but that doesn't make pain evil<<

No, it doesn't. But what would you call somebody who willingly and with malice aforethought inflicts pain and suffering on other people? A bit of cvnt? A jolly nice chap? God?

Pain and suffering aren't evil: a child who touches a hot stove will suffer but they will learn from their suffering and not touch it again. But an God that deliberately inflicts pain and suffering on their 'children' in order to 'teach them a lesson' sounds like the sort of abusive parent that will hold a child's hand against a hot stove to demonstrate their love. On reflection, probably more than just a bit of a cvnt. And a bit unhinged by most people's metric.

Cheers,

Tony

What is the nature of god? By definition, god is unknowable. God may be nature with a capital N. The term god surely is archaic and belongs in the past.

Sir Roger Penrose, one of the great minds of this century, developed the theory of Quantum Consciousness ... that the nature of consciousness is a quantum process.

Penrose is internationally renowned for his scientific work in mathematical physics, particularly his contributions to general relativity and cosmology.

He was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of London in 1972. Stephen Hawking and Penrose were jointly awarded the Eddington Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society, He was awarded the Royal Society Royal Medal. Along with Stephen Hawking, he was awarded the prestigious Wolf Foundation Prize for Physics in 1988. ...

His other awards - the Dirac Medal and Prize of the British Institute of Physics, the Albert Einstein Medal, the Naylor Prize of the London Mathematical Society, the De Morgan Medal for his wide and original contributions to mathematical physics. He served as President of the International Society on General Relativity and Gravitation ... and his not insignificant credentials go on ...

Penrose work on General Relativity led to an understanding of black holes. He developed the Twistor Theory

Penrose does not hold to any religious doctrine, and refers to himself as an atheist. In the film A Brief History of Time, he said, "I think I would say that the universe has a purpose, it's not somehow just there by chance ... some people, I think, take the view that the universe is just there and it runs along – it's a bit like it just sort of computes, and we happen somehow by accident to find ourselves in this thing. But I don't think that's a very fruitful or helpful way of looking at the universe, I think that there is something much deeper about it."Penrose is a Distinguished Supporter of the British Humanist Association.
(see wiki)

Dear Tony,

Would you call a mentally-ill parent who holds their child's hand against a hot stove "evil"? No.
Would you call tsunamis or falling rocks "evil"? No.
Would you call animals "evil"? There's a slight controversy, but most would say 'No'.

This indicates that evil is a property of the mind. No mind - no evil!

Although there were primitive sightings of mind in some animals, the mind is essentially a human appendage. The mind is centred around its core, the ego: that inflated notion of the importance of one's body, existing separately from all others.

This idea of God having an ego/mind like us, made in the image of man along with all man's faults and appendages, is crazy.

If you agree with me that God has no mind, then you must agree that God cannot be evil.

In contrast with the ego-centred mind, capable of evil because it sets us apart, goodness is defined as that which brings us together, so we realise our underlying common-ground rather than care for maintaining our boundaries. Our underlying common-ground being God, a corollary is that goodness is closeness-to-God.

Psalm 92 says: "It is good to give thanks to the Lord, to make music to your name O most high".
In other words, the psalm claims that giving thanks and making music are methods of coming closer to God, thus closer to all others and shedding off our ego/mind and its evil potential.

Dear AJ Philips,

Should that be your wish, I may be able to help you discard me as an immoral person.
In fact, I gave you a whale-sized clue in my last post, but you failed to take advantage.

God aside, I wrote in support of having different standards for different people, implying that those who no-longer perceive pain as evil are no-longer obliged to refrain from inflicting pain on others.

Of course, in order to cease perceiving pain as evil, one would need to get rid of their ego/mind, which is also the main obstacle to being with God, thus one would likely be doing God's will.

The discussions on OLO for or against a God has been interesting, I do applaud the writers on either side for their beliefs or non beliefs, being an Atheist myself I have one opinion there is no such thing as a God, I knew nothing before I came and will know nothing after I go, I do not expect to be in some sort of spirit form for billions of years, to believe that a person was born 2013 years ago to save my sins, who has never ever reappeared and never will , does not make any sense to myself, one could go on for ever on this subject with no final conclusion, nobody knows and we will never know the answer. There is no escape from death which treats us all as equals, rich or poor, and we just end up as a non existed being except to our immediate family.

ojnab..<<..to believe..[jesus]..to save my sins,>>

i agree..[jesus..like god..dosnt see the sinner..as much.as he..sees a child..of the father...[in..our fathers image..]..where..he says see..me..see my father..he is saying..father WOULD be..doing as you seeme/doing]..healing/teaching/living/loving..forgiving/mediating..etc

<<..who/never ever reappeared..>>
1966..he revvealed..this
http://miraclevision.com/acim/urtext/acim-urtext-2003-upe-ready-edition.pdf

<<one could..go/on..for-ever..on this/subject..with no final conclusion,>>

yes..absolutly..true..BUT for good reason[if the father..was here
we NOT NE OF US..could deney..doing whateveer..he says]..BUT god dont want..mindless slaves..WHAT*..he wants..[as jesus revealed]..by..the words.."SEE/that..ye see/me do..YOU WILL..do greater"

as he said..as..recently..as 1966

<<..no escape from death..>>
we died..many/times..as our SPIRITS/evolved..up/to..human/incarnation
from..microscopic..through beastfauna/flora incarnation[some say even by..via mineral's..quartz etc

what i love..is the infinite..excuse..for learning..EVERYthing..just/by..getting..to know..all god is.[or isnt]

danielle..<<..What is..the..nature of god?>>

love/life/logic..sustained..by his light
he thus=supreme/cause..his nature/naturally
is reflected..by..that best..revealed..by his creations

<<..God may be nature with a capital N.>>
yes..butnot nature alone..[eg..we are nature..yet are not..'god'
buit just as an artist,,has their..own/style..unique/teqnique

so too..i see the/hand of god..in his creation
[AND better..even..if no god..i still found excuse
to..learn amassing..the infinite things..about..what..i saw is/remains..amazing..[an..endless/variety][and then..the promise..of infinite other worlds..'out there'..infinite ways..of being..it seems no matter where we look..there is life.[ie ENERGY/changing state]

<<..The term god..surely is archaic..and belongs in the past>>

no..its a learning aid..to help grasp..the concept
right..up to..the 'acim'..[linked]...that reveals...god..the holy spirit/jesus..are one..but so..too/are we ALL..[in essence..we all are E[energy]=god..collectivly..all e..i..call the holy spirit[is infinite..plus omnipresent[energy..IS..everywhere]

the holy spirit..[E]..flows through..
all living.[see aura]..now..life..begets..life

[e/begets/e]
you are god..see?

by..willing..to know..all..we..know..
that all..is what..the holy-spirit...is..
[ie/energy]..[E}..is everything.

light=[e][energy]
god is..energy[E}..you are energy[E}
jesus..is energy[e]..the universe=[e]..

[E]=[e]

your flesh=[energy]..[e]
..your muscles..move/by electrical..impulse..[energy][e]
your brain=[e]..even your thoughts..can/be recorded..because we measure..the emitted energy..[e]..god/the universe/and..EVERYTHING=[E}

its not complicated..[try to..escape..energy..is imposable
just framing..the thought=energy..changing state..just seeing=energy/changing state[from..photons..into nerve-impulse[e]..into neurons[e]..into..our brain[e]..etc

via brain..into the cloud-mind..[the first level..
we could mistake..as god..but..even/this energy..sink=god too=ENERGY..the collective..holy-spirit=ALL energy..[in all states]

see how a thought..lights your mind[the thought=[e]
its all energy..changing state..[the thoughts..that were you[when/your body=[e]..transitions..into its next energy form
[our soul]..BUT still..ALL animated..by the holy spirit/flux/flow[e]

think..like a holographic plate..[..if they break]..EACH..busted..BIT...yet..retains..a..full..image[e]

or think..of it like electricity[e]..flowing through your computer
if the power stops..[if e goes]..the computer dont go.[if the holy spirit..stopped..'being..the E..now where would thayt be

science says pre big bang..ALL..the mass of the uni-verse[e]..fitted within..a dot/the size of a fullstop[.]..that then began expanding..as energy..yet again changed state

mass=e
speed/velocity=e
EVERY*thing=ENERGY[e]

music=energy
light=energy
lightening=e
clouds=e
sun=e

merde=e
tres-e
you=e
me=e
i=e

i am=e
thats it..plenty...of energy..
but little will..[yet..a different/form..of energy]/..[e]..

anti..energy=delusion
energy goes like osmosis...[from where there is much..to where there is little]..chemical re-action=e..changing state

death=SELF AWARE..energy changing state

oh come on..for gods sake
say something

i picked..this forum..because
you atheists..are SURE*..of your agnosticism

shred me to bits..come on danelle..we know each other..fight
[as for the other's..[my guides are using the swartzmegger voice..gurly girls?

has the first author even replied?
i..have some questions

anyhow athiest..dont do like dick/dorkins dun..when he lost the evolution/debate..refute the false-gods..im with you..[100%..next year]

with god on..your side..the religious fools got nuthin..but empty words..[by their works stand they are..revealed]..what would jesus do..what would mahamoud say..please notice..as the lies fade away..

"Since the dawn of time, millions have been killed by those who claimed to have acted in God's name, but the truth is that every single death has been the unjustifiable action of a violent person." So wrote the author who must be deranged.

What has followed his nonsensical article is a gigantic deluge of theo-waffle which signifies absolutely nothing.

People, acting in the name or names of their god or gods, have been slaughtering others, hacking them with swords, stabbing them with spears, penetrating them with arrows, pouring boiling oil on them, firing huge rocks at them, smashing them with clubs, crushing them with elephants, riding over them with chariots, you name it, the religious will do it and have done it since the dawn of time.

Everyone must have seen the U.S. marines holding a prayer service before they go out to kill as many of the 'enemy' as possible. Afterwards, the prayerful can urinate upon their kills if that is their thing!

The notion of god needs to be dead, buried and cremated! It makes humans crazy!

OUG, Atheists are peace loving people, not like yourself who wants to create a WAR of words on Online opinion, war seems to be, whether in battle or on OLO to be in every religious persons mind, kill them, get rid of them, parasites, you name it, the good old religioous are right out there in front to condemn every one, propped up by books that were written centuries ago with no truth in them what so ever.
Join us Atheists OUG and find the peace you are looking for, you will never find it in the Bible

David G.

You are absolutely correct.

However, if they didn't do it in the name of god, they would be doing it in the name of some other ...

"In the name of god" may be the excuse, but most often it isn't the real reason.

'runner..said..<<..Isn't heaven nothing but..a larger-scale temptation and..
isn't hell nothing..but a larger-scale..place of purification?>> '

oug

I did. That is really news to me.

Dear David,

I agree with Danielle.

That people pretend to be religious, or are themselves deluded that they are, just because they pay lip-service to God in their prayers before going out to war, doesn't imply that they are religious indeed and is no ground to attack religion itself, only those hypocrites.

Dear Ojnab,

<<Atheists are peace loving people>>

Go tell that to Mao and Stalin.

Dear Runner,

<<Isn't heaven nothing but a larger-scale temptation and isn't hell nothing but a larger-scale place of purification>>

It was I who wrote so, then OUG attributed it by mistake to you.

I do hope, though, that you would agree with me that the goal of religion is to attain God, rather than to have a pleasant time in heaven and avoid the pains of hell.

Yuyutsu,

So are you saying that anyone who can eliminate their mind and ego (whatever that means) is morally justified in inflicting evil?

[Remember, I’m not just talking about pain here, and if you are, then we’re wasting our time. However, I'd still be interested in your response with a clarification of what you are encompassing in your use of the word "pain".]

<<That people pretend to be religious … doesn't imply that they are religious>>

That’s not what Danielle was saying at all.

And this is the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy, too, by the way.

Danielle,

<<However, if they didn't do it in the name of god, they would be doing it in the name of some other.>>

This is the old, "It's not religion that's to blame, it's people", argument that so many theists use. Myself included, when I was a theist.

It’s convenient that theists are so quick attribute charitable works to religion, yet as soon as we spot negative effects, religion’s just an excuse that could easily be replaced by anything else. By doing this, theists commit similar fallacies to those that grateful committed in being so quick to attribute only the good to his god.

It’s important to remember that the actions of many religious extremists would be unintelligible without religion. Lack of education and poverty are often blamed instead, yet those so often committing the worst acts are the more educated and wealthy (e.g. 9/11 hijackers).

The Abrahamic religions tear people down and then build them back up again (c.f. Amazing Grace) with themselves at the centre of what makes that person feel good about themselves. It becomes a part of their identity in a way that nothing else could. To brush-off the unique effects that religion has on people, by claiming that just any ol’ belief or condition could take its place to justify bad deeds, is naive to say the least.

The best non-religious parallel to religion one could find - and one for which there is nothing within atheism to support - would be communism. However, communism is more of a pseudo-religion. Just look at North Korea for example; the last Stalinist country left: their president is a dead man that must be worshipped (his descendants were and are only heads of the communist party and the military); Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il are said to have had miraculous births; it has a trinity of sorts; there is round-the-clock-surveillance; and they have their own form of ‘original sin’ in which prison sentences may span over generations.

But at least with North Korea you can get out by dying.

david..what you say is undeniable..true..men done it
and danielle..is right too..if there/is..no god..[even..if we/are god]

so..how do/we fix this
[is there..an atheist..'anti-christ'..that..helps destroy..the vermin..in..the temple..[do atheists/hold..the father guilty..of the works..of the son?

i..can prove..for/you..there is..NO..'god'
would that help?

i can/prove the majority..of christians..really believe
jesus.is god..[i can..refute this/but so..too..*you]

do/we..close the..unholy temples[or all/of them]
would we..have too swear/lies true..on..the bible?

i..have so..many questions
im..over govt watching..me surf the web..and..my/following links..
so can we avoid..AUTHORITY..like/that and indicate..where i..can get these answers..[normally i would/do it..myself..but my computer..has picked up a bug]..and i prefer..a wrong answer..[but..in your own word..than..some authoritative..'quote'..i appreciate..your honesty

oj..<<>>..OUG,..Atheists..are peace/loving people,..not
like..yourself..who wants.to create..a WAR..*of words<<..

i...agree..but mate...im..now..on YOUR side

i..KNOW..there is no..god..i spent..over 24 years reading/THEIR..holy texts..i rekon..i know..what they..really are saying..[collectively} is more..re..that..theW*holy spirit..[ie every*thing=..E]..

*but no..abrahamic vengeful/disciplin-arian..patriarch..who hates sex..and harm-lees fun..[that..some]..would call..god..[BUT.. IS/not*...the holy spirit]..

if..their god=one..their wrong..
[that..they would..call god..is..a place
/a location..[her name is ana]

just/the true name.reveals she has ego..[thus..cannot..'be'.god]..i got the info..of the 7th/himself..[her name..means alpha/negative alpha..but she=the sun[e]..the holy spirit..is channeled..through..all the suns

so..if ana..=god..the.sky is full..[of gods]
regardless anna..did set up life./.on..this realm..but she is just one..of many..'gods]..[heck..we ARE ALL*DESTINED..to..become suns of the holly spirit]..we each..will indeed..have our OWN..let there 'be..light[e]..moment..so 'god'..is far from..one..and far from unique..

we have christians..[so/what..would an anti-christ 'do]
i make war..[with words]..[even..*sacred/words..[s/words][sharp*s-words]

//<<war seems to be,..whether in battle..or on OLO
to be..in every religious persons mind,..kill them,>>

hangon..i -thought i was with..them
ass..i..knoow there is no..'god///[kill the head...the body dies
[but they lead innocents..NO..KILLING..the god..[of life on earth],, [ana]..sustains..life..she wont take it..[ever]

<<>propped up..by books/that were written
centuries ago..with no truth..in them what so ever...>>

sorry your wrong there
im not into..book0burning..THESE BO0KS..ARE HOLY
they were written..[largly]..by man-kinds best minds..their preservation..[across time]..is an act..of supreme..love..worthy..of true suns..of the holy spirit[E]..

im..not looking for peace
i..just want/to..end war

<<..you will..never find it..in the Bible>>..

thats the problem
i did..[plus many..other holy texts..besides..
together they reveal..the true picture..[a messenger was sent..to..every nation]..but....they NEEDED..a certain..god../.but who=they?

im..not into..witch-hunts
i cant..be led easilly..and refuse to..lead..sheep..or men.

Some historians posit that the Crusades was not about infidels, but was due to European war- lords killing each other, and a means to divert this to a unified cause. This type of politics has a long history and it is often not religious.

I don't understand why atheists are so angry about people who believe in a god. Surely, if they are people of good-will, and their faith is a both a guide and consolation, what really is the issue? As long as these people don't try and force or coerce their beliefs upon others, then there is no problem.

Apart from any intellectual difference, what does it matter what others believe if it does not effect one, nor damage society. We all have differing beliefs about a wide range of matters, in fact, I would hazard a guess that not many of us are on the entire same page.

I just don't understand the anger. Could someone explain this ... please ...?

Danielle, humans are tribal/herd creatures. They find it upsetting when other humans think differently to them.

Problem is that a belief in god or gods brings with it certain rules, edicts, and rewards/punishments. This creates divisions and, all too often, people are on entirely different pages. Different pages lead to conflicts!

Either we want to live in a world based upon reality or we want to go on believing in fairy tales.

Perhaps it's time we grew up!

David G,

"Problem is that a belief in god or gods brings with it certain rules, edicts, and rewards/punishments. This creates divisions and, all too often, people are on entirely different pages. Different pages lead to conflicts!"

Absolutely! But when the beliefs of others are benign particularly as to wider society, and if their belief is of benefit to them, then ...

People look in many places for guidance in their lives. Look at the plethora of self-help books, a plethora which still grows.

I suspect that many become disenchanted with religion, becoming atheists. I suspect some atheists convert to religion. Neither should be condemned.

Ah, "fairy tales" unfortunately these come in so, so many hues. Some are ideologic with a belief system that is deliberately murderous for those that don't believe. Other "fairy tales" are driven by the media. There is a catalogue of "fairy tales" in every aspect of our lives.

It is a very wise person who isn't seduced by some "fairy tale" during their life. It is a very wise person who understands the need to research, analyse, and come to a sober conclusion. But not all know this, nor are so motivated, nor even have the ability.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that when a practice, wherever it is found, damages or diminishes the practitioner and/or the wider society, it has to be exposed, confronted and condemned. I am not an adherent of political correctness, especially when there are elephants thumping round the room.

Danielle,

<<I don't understand why atheists are so angry about people who believe in a god>>
I don't see "anger" --where do you see the anger?

What I think you might be seeing is frustration, and I think frustration would be perfectly understandable under the circumstances.

Grateful presents himself as the champion of reason but when his arguments are exposed as illogical he scurries off --no doubt to pop-up again on another thread, on another day, in the same disguise.

SPQR,

Perhaps, it is as you say, frustration.

But it is always a fruitless task to argue with someone committed to a religion. Religion, by its nature is not logical to those who have no similar belief system. From what I see, there is no meeting point, no point of agreement, no matter how small, from which to engage in debate.

Well Danielle, it's like this, when Muslims like Tamerlane and his horde slaughtered 17 million people in about 40 years you get a sense of why Europeans,Jews, Indian Hindus, Asian Buddhists and secular folk all over might have historical "issues" with orientals.
Did anyone even watch the video I posted earlier? Danielle the Crusades came about because Europe was being hammered by constant Islamic Jihad, Crusading comprised about 20 or so major battles, the Muslims on the other hand made 540 full scale assaults on Europe in 1,000 years. Let's put that in context, that's like Australia with a population of 22 million (same as Europe in the early middle ages) fighting the battle of Passchendaele every two years, add to that the estimates that Islamic raiders took an estimated 3 million Europeans as slaves in 1,000 years and you get an idea why any European, Hindu or Buddhist who's done even a little reading on the subject has ice in their veins when the subject of religious tolerance comes up.
Islam means scorched earth and slavery, that's why the hostility towards Muslims and why secularists,Jews,Hindus, Buddhists and Christians can all get along for the most part.
Ever wondered why even though they took millions of Africans as slaves there are no African populations in the Islamic heartlands? Simples, they castrated or killed all the males so they couldn't reproduce, that's Islam's take on slavery.Perhaps we won't, some people aren't good with gory details.
According to some scholars there have only been 12 years out of the last 1400 without Jihad, look at present day Thailand, the Phillipines and Burma, there's a religious problem in the world all right, it's called Islam.
I guess too that in the seventh century there were refugees trickling, then pouring into Byzantium with bloodcurdling stories of the coming apocalypse of the Jihad and bearing marks of torture on their bodies. So too would there have been people saying "Well Mohammed and his followers are only men, we can reason with them and anyway there's plenty of room for all in Byzantium!"

Danielle,

Directly or indirectly, religious belief always effects others and damages society to one degree or another.

<<Apart from any intellectual difference, what does it matter what others believe if it does not effect one, nor damage society.>>

I answer this in-depth over the following three responses: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5547#151500, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5547#151561, http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10496#178700.

Long story short, there is no such thing as a completely benign belief. We don't live in a vacuum. Our beliefs inform our actions and our actions have consequences. Even the most private religious belief can have negative effects, because when we believe something for bad reasons, we then run the risk of holding other beliefs for bad reasons; other beliefs that may have more detrimental effects.

We should always make an effort to have as many true beliefs as possible and eliminate as many false ones as we can. But when we hold a lack of evidence up as a virtue (i.e. faith), it makes doing that really hard.

<<But it is always a fruitless task to argue with someone committed to a religion.>>

This isn't always the case. The deconversion section of Dawkins' website has hundreds of stories of people seeing reason. The Atheist Community of Austin has, through their show, helped literally thousands around the world escape the irrationality of religious belief. I, myself, have even helped a couple of people break free from it. You'd be surprised how often it happens.

Dear AJ Philips,

<<So are you saying that anyone who can eliminate their mind and ego (whatever that means) is morally justified in inflicting evil?>>

I am saying that one who eliminated their mind and ego CANNOT do evil.

To begin with, because evil is a property of the mind, one without a mind cannot do evil.
Further, without a grain of selfishness, one has no motive to do evil: the motive to do evil, or even think evil, is fear, which comes out of selfishness.
Further, without the clouding obstacle of selfishness, one is free to act according to their true nature - which is goodness and love.

We rarely encounter people who completely eradicated their mind and ego, whom in whatever they do have no selfish intention: but a few such people exist and existed in history. It is indeed difficult to imagine this state unless you had the fortune to meet one of them as I did. Yet to get some idea, try to remember those in your life who, though imperfectly, were most selfless, full of love, compassion and forgiveness.

Now there's no guarantee that you will like/accept what they do. It's still possible (though unlikely) that you wouldn't approve of their actions, even consider them "evil", but then it would only be your own prejudice.

Morality is extremely important because it is the main tool for losing one's ego. Yet, please understand that those who already lost their ego, no longer require the aid of morality. Nevertheless, chances are that they will keep upholding morality, both out of habit and because they compassionately understand that it helps others who still have an ego, to get rid of it.

So far I held back the theological dimension. If you don't feel like discussing God, then please ignore the following:

The ego/mind is the main obstacle to God, so one who got rid of it is either very close to God or even united with Him, having realised their true identity as God. Thus, such a person will by all their actions only do God's will.

Dear Danielle,

You've hit the nail on its head:

"I would hazard a guess that not many of us are on the entire same page."

Then you ask: "I just don't understand the anger."

Apparently, some people are angry that others are not on the same page as themselves. Apparently some people would have liked everyone else to cooperate with them on their pet projects, such as building a human society, then become very frustrated when it doesn't happen (because others are on a different page).

AJ Philips has a valid point when claiming that "We don't live in vacuum", that "Directly or indirectly, religious belief always effects others and damages society to one degree or another.": One has only two arms, two legs, one head and 24 hours/day. If these are devoted to projects other than society-building, then society indirectly suffers.

But that is not specific to religion: the same old conflict occurs when some say, "We have serious business to attend to" while others who are not on the same page sing "Let's go fly a kite". Flying kites obsessively, though not a religion, has similar detrimental effects on society as any religion.

Similarly, the cult of society-building is detrimental to religion.
Some people who consider themselves religious get angry about it, but anger does not serve religion, only forbearance.

The idea as if the purpose of life is to develop a human society, which some take so seriously, is as irrational as the idea that the purpose of life is to fly kites.

Those who build a society know that their society will only last for some centuries.
Those who fly kites know that their kites will fall within an hour or so.
Those who pursue religion either know, but at least hope, that while their efforts may take more than a lifetime, their result is everlasting.
Now what's more rational?!

While we are not all on the same page, we are all on the same book: "The long and winding road to God". Religious people are simply further ahead on that book.

Thank for your response Yututsu. It was an interesting read and when you have evidence for any of it, I'll be interested to hear more.

As for your response to Danielle: you have once again downplayed my point by skipping straight to your, "But that is not specific to religion...", point without addressing the more serious consequences - in which I had both implied in my post, and specifically mentioned in the posts that I linked to - that ARE specific to religion.

That you said what you said in a post to someone other than myself doesn't make it any less deceitful and only comes across as an attempt to slip a rebuttal in through the backdoor in the hope that I won't notice what you've done.

aj..what you call 'rebutal'..is only..the beast mind[herd mind][ego]
or as the religious would call..angels[if good]..demons if bad.

heaven/hell are formed,,[or rather informed]..as much as creating/destroying..mostly..they seek simply companionship..[affirmastion..of herd mind..

[with/like mind..[or for like reason..thus..you get self seeing affirmation..[like say the ecumenical council..are they here to empower..or strastify..them/us

[birds of a feather..flock..together...but herd mind can be as few as two..[as jesus said..where ever two..or more are gat-herd..[in my name]..there am..i

i put it rather clumsy..but as a picture=1001..words
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf
[see the picture..on page 2o..then the pictture onpage..19
but the text begins at 18]
[6+6+6]=18

Yuyutsu,

<<but anger does not serve religion, only forbearance>>

So perhaps we need to write to the Syrian "moderates" and tell they just need to show greater forbearance.

http://www.mail.com/int/news/world/2530106-syria-militants-opposition-activists.html#.1258-stage-set3-4

Dear AJ-Philips,

Sorry I couldn't address all your points properly: I'm really struggling with the 350-word limit. I'm only allowed this and one-more post later-today, then I must wait-till-Sunday, so sorry I must pick-and-choose what-I-believe-is the-essence-of-your-vast-references:

<<When energy and time is wasted doing this, rather than devoting full time and energy to actually preventing or fixing a problem, then it is potentially causing harm.>>

As I just wrote: "One has only two arms, two legs, one head and 24 hours/day". What you are asking is that others devote these to solving YOUR problems.

<<<<The point that I was trying to make was - "Live and let live.">>

Of course! But there are some who are riding roughshod over our rights, security and wellbeing, and all with the passive support of the billions of their fellow travelers.

Where do we draw the line?>>

I draw the line at taking away your freedom to sin.
I don't support riding roughshod over other's rights.
I support "Live and let live".
I wonder whether you do the same?

<<With religion being perhaps the biggest wall,>>

So here you claim yourself that there are also other "walls that separate us", besides religion.
What you fail to see (and I can't blame you for that) is that religion is not a wall, only the pretence-of-religion.

<<The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live.>>

Mankind will not live forever. Religion will.
Everything gravitates towards returning to its origin and essence - God,
so mankind too exists only for the purpose of practising religion
(however, religion need not always be explicit or accompanied by belief).

<<If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest.>>

Yes, but religion isn't a social club. Those who go to church for social/political reasons are fooling themselves.

Dear SPQR,

Indeed, there are some despicable people who hide behind the veil of 'religion', desecrating God's name and bringing religion into disrepute. Their true motives are national/tribal, anything but religious.

Hi Yuyutsu,

<<Their true motives are national/tribal, anything but religious>>

Would to interested to know what filter you use to distinguish/separate national/tribal motivations from religious?

Yuyutsu, the all powerful Religious right are definately making sure that we will never ever have voluntary euthanasia, which is my right if I choose, they combine world wide to make sure that legislation does not get passed in various countries including Australia, is this being what they call Christian ethics,? I don't think so, denying me my right.

Don't be concerned, Ojnab.

This is the link!

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/dr-death-philip-nitschke-to-open-australias-first-euthanasia-clinic-in-gilberton-this-week/story-fni6uo1m-1226757890493

The idiots who want to run our lives and our deaths have been out-maneuvered by the good doctor.

The internet has set us free!

That’s not good enough, Yuyutsu.

<<Sorry I couldn't address all your points properly: I'm really struggling with the 350-word limit…>>

If you didn’t have the word allowance/ time to respond adequately, then you should have done us both the service of simply not responding at all. Moreover, you wasted at least 150 words beating up on a man made of straw with the ‘society-building’ tangent that you went off on. This catch-up now just looks like you’re trying to save face after having initially sidestepped my more pertinent points.

[Speaking of society-building, here is but one inspirational example of the prosperous effects that a lack of religion can have on impoverished communities: http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-12/ethiopian-village-has-gained-wealth-has-bred-hostility]

<<"One has only two arms, two legs, one head and 24 hours/day". What you are asking is that others devote these to solving YOUR problems.>>

They’re not MY problems. I have pointed people to objectively determinable problems facing religion that are insurmountable (as is apparent given the dishonesty and fallacies coming from the theistic quarters on this thread). So other than reading, little effort is required from others. I have asked no-one to go off and resolve anything.

<<I draw the line at taking away your freedom to sin … I wonder whether you do the same?>>

Please don’t suggest that I might try to force others to stop believing, given the chance. Irrationally can only be fought with evidence and reasoned argument.

<<What you fail to see … is that religion is not a wall, only the pretence-of-religion.>>

Either this is the No-true-Scotsman fallacy (yet again), or it makes the same mistakes I addressed in my first post to Danielle (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820#274298).

<<Religion will [live forever] … Everything gravitates towards returning to its origin and essence - God…>>

More unsubstantiated claims. You can’t just assert anything you want and expect that it’s going to advance your argument.

<<Yes, but religion isn't a social club.>>

No-one ever implied that it was.

<<Those who go to church for social/political reasons are fooling themselves.>>

The analogy doesn’t refer to anyone who does; nor does it depend on anyone doing so.

Dear SPQR,

Non-violence is the foundation of morality and morality is the foundation of religious practice. Therefore those who resort to violence are obviously not religious.

Dear Ojnab,

Sadly, it seems that there are some who call themselves "religious" and "Christian", but have forgotten the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Yes, a saint would probably not ask others to terminate his/her life even if s/he had terminal bowel-cancer; but a religious person aspires to become a saint, not order others to behave LIKE saints.

Dear AJ Philips,

So one cannot win: if I write as much as my quota allows, then I better not, but then I would be like Grateful who sadly disappeared and "gone to ground".

I really came here to ask him some questions about Islam and I'm disappointed he never replied. It was never my intention to enter a full discussion with you, how less so to prove anything, yet you insist.

My time is limited. As you ask me questions, I answer as much as my word-limit allows, but I really don't owe you proofs - I'm not being paid for that and the time it takes adversely affects my other duties in life.

Essentially, because I am religious you treat me as a criminal, the enemy of society - guilty until proven innocent. You are asking me to guess what out of a heap of old posts are your "more pertinent points", then you can criticise me if I didn't guess correctly. You relentlessly place me in the same basket as your stereotype religious person ("bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and sheer ignorance"), then others ask me why I deny them the right to abort or euthanase, which I never did.

So let me tell you straight: I have not come here to this world to either work with you or against you. It is you who are upset that I'm not interested in the same issues that interest you, such as building society and prosperity (that link didn't work).

So-long until Sunday, when I can address your points in order, one-by-one if you still wish.

Addressing euthanasia.

Jurisdictions where euthanasia or assisted suicide is legal include Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Washington, Oregon, Estonia, Albania and Montana (wiki)

The problem of euthanasia is that it can be abused. With a high % of elderly abused, it would be easy for family members to coerce them to adopt euthanasia. This would be tragic.

Australia does have the Living Will, NFR, and Palliative Care; the latter any person can access who is having treatment for serious illnesses. Additionally, doctors will-up pain killers for those suffering, even when this means that it hastens death.

When an elderly relative had dementia and suffered from bladder infections, the person who held his Medical Power of Attorney was contacted and asked whether he should be sent to hospital for treatment or put into palliative care. In palliative care the condition is not "treated", but the patient is made comfortable with all necessary medication until death ensues. The medication itself can hasten death quite considerably.

Re Nitschke, one of his "patients" had surgery for stomach cancer and experiencing the same symptoms as previously, opted for assisted suicide. The post-mortem revealed that there was no cancer, but scars (easy fixed) which caused the pain.

The fact that Nitschke is able to open a clinic indicates that those who want to go this route, are permitted to.

Personally, I do not believe involving others in suicide, but firmly believe in diy. Plenty successfully do so.

Whilst suicide may be regarded problematically by the religious, suicide as a crime comes down through common law - a suicide deprives the crown of a subject.

Perhaps what is really needed is for ethical debate as what constitutes "treatment", as opposed to "prolonging the dying process".

I am not a Christian, but have neighbours that are. They are average good people, they don't try to convert me, nor condemn me, nor in any way adversely affect me ... nor the wider community. Why should I condemn them, why should I try and rationalise them out of their beliefs? What will that achieve?

Is the subtext of this discussion, that all people who believe in a religion are morons, stupid and dangerous?

Those who seek Dawkins site, or are open to debate about religion, are those who are already doubting their beliefs.

Some years ago, a close friend who had been raised in a religion, but had deserted it very early on, came to me with the revelation that they had returned to the religion of their birth. After having had a turbulent life, with periods of therapy, this person was now serene and one could say, happy. As they were in the very early stages, I am sure that I could have rationalised them out of this new found faith. I seriously thought about it. However, realised that I could not offer anything better in its place. I had seen them as an atheist and unhappy. I let them discuss it without my making any judgement - which took a monumental lot of patience on my part. Recently they died and died happy, however misguided, in my opinion, they may have been.

For many ordinary people of good-will, religion serves a purpose.

Yes, extremists of any religion, indeed any ideology, any philosophy, are a menace. They should be confronted and their practices and belief systems laid bare.

But equally, we have to be sensitive to those gentle people who are not extremists, but benefit from their beliefs.

Not at all, Yuyutsu.

<<So one cannot win: if I write as much as my quota allows, then I better not, but then I would be like Grateful who sadly disappeared...>>

You simply attempt to address the most pertinent points first, before your word count is up, and don't conclude as if you've covered everything: "But that is not specific to religion..."

Please don't play dumb. Your response was not an earnest attempt to cram in what you could, but a deceptive blowing-off of what I had said by making out as if your rebuttal encompassed the entirety of my argument. You've been caught out. Wear it.

<<It was never my intention to enter a full discussion with you, how less so to prove anything, yet you insist.>>

If you are going to make extraordinary claims, then it is only common sense that you support them with some evidence and/or reasoning. Why would you not want to dignify your opinions with justifications?

<<I really don't owe you proofs...>>

If all you want to do is simply give me your take on things, then great. I'll duly note it. But if you offer it as if corrects what I've said, or as though I’m missing some vital piece of information, then yes, you do. Otherwise, I suggest that you start your responses with openers such as, "In my opinion...", "If you ask me...", "The way I see it...", in future rather than speaking in such a direct and matter-of-factly way.

<<Essentially, because I am religious you treat me as a criminal, the enemy of society guilty until proven innocent.>>

Please don't play the wounded deer. I have done nothing of the sort (although, you do at least bear the burden of proof at this point in time). If you are going to make such accusations, then it would be polite to back them up with something.

<<You are asking me to guess what out of a heap of old posts are your "more pertinent points", then you can criticise me if I didn't guess correctly.>>

Continued…

…Continued

Oh, come now. You had no troubles picking out the less pertinent and indirect consequences of religious belief when it suited you. Now suddenly it's all a mystery? Please...

<<You relentlessly place me in the same basket as your stereotype religious person ("bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and sheer ignorance")...>>

On the contrary, I have taken great pains not to. Those words were regarding religion in general, not you (however, your only response is the No-true-Scotsman fallacy).

<<...then others ask me why I deny them the right to abort or euthanase, which I never did.>>

Are you seriously blaming me for what others accuse you of?

<<It is you who are upset that I'm not interested in the same issues that interest you...>>

What gives you the impression that I'm upset? It was you who started the society-building talk. I was only talking about not wrecking it. I think it’s telling that theists (and theism’s defenders apparently) always see anger and upset in the tone of those with whom they disagree.

Here's that link: http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-12/ethiopian-village-has-gained-wealth-has-bred-hostility

<<…I can address your points in order, one-by-one if you still wish.>>

Sure, but please avoid fallacies, misrepresentations and wild, unsubstantiated claims.

Danielle,

Why do you have to put words in the mouths of others and assume the worst? You are clearly taking great pains to not understand those with whom you disagree.

<<Why should I condemn them, why should I try and rationalise them out of their beliefs?>>

You shouldn’t. That would be rude and pushy. This, however, is a debating sight.

<<Is the subtext of this discussion, that all people who believe in a religion are morons, stupid and dangerous?>>

No. Irrationality is not necessarily synonymous with stupidity. Not all religious people are dangerous either, but there are still negative effects.

Regarding your friend, I can only repeat what I said in one of the posts I linked you to: “If people can't find happiness without false promises and imaginary father figures, then that indicates a sickness in our societies, and masking it with make-believe doesn’t help anyone in the long run.”

Danielle,

>> Is the subtext of this discussion, that all people who believe in a religion are morons, stupid and dangerous? <<

This is obviously only a rhetoric question, however let me assure you that it is precisely because of tolerant atheists like you, that I - a Christian accused here of things like mental gymnastics by those who could not understand my position - occasionally follow or even take part in these discussions.

Perhaps it is not by accident that in your earlier post you referred to Roger Penrose, another tolerant atheist from whom I learned a lot. The Penrose-Hameroff Orch-OR theory of consciousness that you mention is indeed relevant since it is exactly in the nature of consciousness (which we still cannot understand) that the question of the spiritual dimension of reality (actual or imagined) enters.

George,

That was an unfair smear.

<<...let me assure you that it is precisely because of tolerant atheists like you, that I - a Christian accused here of things like mental gymnastics by those who could not understand my position - occasionally follow or even take part in these discussions.>>

Could you show me where I have displayed any intolerance for those who hold a theistic belief, in light of the arguments I have presented?

<<Perhaps it is not by accident that in your earlier post you referred to Roger Penrose, another tolerant atheist from whom I learned a lot. The Penrose-Hameroff Orch-OR theory of consciousness that you mention is indeed relevant since it is exactly in the nature of consciousness (which we still cannot understand) that the question of the spiritual dimension of reality (actual or imagined) enters.>>

This is an appeal-to-ignorance fallacy, and a God-of-the-gaps argument. The lack of information in a given area does not lend credence to unsubstantiated claims and ignores a third possibility.

I might add, too, that you have never been able to demonstrate why your thought processes, on this topic, do not constituent "mental gymnastics". Therefore, this amounts to nothing more than the appeal-to-emotion fallacy.

Why is it that only grateful and Yuyutsu have had the courage to address me directly on this thread.

My respect to them...

AJ Philips,

>>That was an unfair smear<<

Plese note that the post was addressed to Danielle, not to you; you were not mentioned or meant in that post. It certainly was not meant to restart many of our arguments that always end with my assurance that I did not want to convert you.

Whether or not she sees the post as a smear is up to Dannielle.

George,

I agree with you about Penrose, an extraordinary mind.

My uncle, an astro-physicist and card-carrying atheist, stated that he saw the divine in the perfection and beauty of a physics equation. I assumed he identified physics as the prime mover. Some would say physics is (his) god.

Because of this influence I am very intrigued with Penrose's physics' based Quantum Consciousness. None doubts that Penrose is one of the foremost scientists of the century. He is also Distinguished Supporter of the British Humanist Association.

Penrose stated:

"I think I would say that the universe has a purpose, it's not somehow just there by chance ... some people, I think, take the view that the universe is just there and it runs along – it's a bit like it just sort of computes, and we happen somehow by accident to find ourselves in this thing. But I don't think that's a very fruitful or helpful way of looking at the universe, I think that there is something much deeper about it."

Penrose may not be positing an anthropomorphic god, but his theses must be of interest to any thoughtful person.

AJ..FURTHER DELUSION..<<Why is it that only grateful and Yuyutsu have had the courage to address me directly on this thread.>>

why do you fear to..talk with..me?
i..have replied you..many times..and somehow you say..you cant comprehend..well sunshine..that clear lie reveals your own..weakness
your a thug..a bully..yet got a great mind..but your afraid to take me on

its as pathetic as you are
your not only ignorant..your wrong
and ONLY.by reading my replies..and trying to..destroy..what i have said..will..i reply further..[all.i see in.the latest postings from you is..no refuting of fact..by hard-playing of the man..not your assumed questions

pssss weak

LIST OUR QUESTIONS..repeat your questions
just your questions..or your delusions..or play with,me

its just..pss weak..if you..get answer..you SAY..you cant comprehend

SO..ASK..THE FREAKING tHING AGAIN..and again..and again
let the readers see how ignorant you are..with your silence

ask..and you will be replied
dont ask..and be revealed as..a bully boy ignoramus
[if you havnt squanderd away your posts..i expecrt reply

you and me
bully boy
here anytime your ready..i will/be saving my posts..for today..just for you..today..is aj day..[please note..silence will reveal more than..any question..you could conceive][dont ask me to change your mind..and im not into converting exceta into pearl]

if you got guts or nutts talk.
dont waste time goading back..i wont reply your pathetic goad..JUST QUESTIONS..not inferences

CLEAR*QUESTIONS
clear proofs..

put up or think..about what..your really afraid of..
isnt your pathetic-ness..but your passable greatness..bah*

this is why..toilets have lids..

Danielle,

Thanks for the interesting Penrose quote that I did not know of. One cannot expect a mathematical physicist to arrive at an “anthropomorphic god” as being behind the purpose Penrose is talking about just out of his/her physics. Those mathematical physicists (and others) who see a personal (or anthropomorphic if you like) God in this role do so for reasons other than mathematics or physics.

It was Penrose’s three worlds (physical, mathematical, mental) that inspired e.g. my article www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14464. One might speculatively postulate a fourth (spiritual or divine) world. Sometimes it is better to speak about three (eventually four) DIMENSIONS of one Reality rather than different worlds.

By the way, I recently found this link (http://www.closertotruth.com/video-profile/What-Things-Really-Exist-Roger-Penrose-/432 ), that you might be interested in listening to.

'It was Penrose’s three worlds (physical, mathematical, mental) that inspired e.g. my article www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14464. One might speculatively postulate a fourth (spiritual or divine)', says George!

I tried to think of a situation that combined all four and the best I could come up was successfully voiding bodily wastes known as number two!

Am I on the right track? Should I do my PhD? Would it be God's will?

no/aj.one question

from page..iii/intro

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

without devoting more space to these problems,..for those
who desire verifiable/evidence

let us turn to consider the
matter given in these pages.

The original plan of the work
as arranged by H. J. L. was as follows: —
The Astral plane —
(a) As seen by a bad man, viz. The Officer.
(b) As seen by an average man of the world, viz. W. A.

The Spirit plane, divided into —
(1) Hell, or the Realm of Unbelief, related by The Officer.
(2) The Realm of Half-Belief, related by H. J. L.
(3) The Realm of Belief lacking in Works, related by J. B.P.
(4) The Realm of Belief shown forth in Works, related by The Monk.

Owing to the enhanced cost of production due to the war,
it was found necessary to..reduce the book to a manageable size.

To do this we were reluctantly compelled to
publish only The Astral Plane, Hell, and the Realm of Half-Belief.

As these are set forth
in full, it will not be necessary to deal with them here,
but a few words may be devoted to..the two higher realms.

The Realm of Belief lacking in Works, as depicted by J. B. P., is much brighter than..the Realm of Half-Belief, the light being as the light in England at about 8 a.m. on a
summer’s day.

To this realm go all those whose faith was strong,
but narrow and rather bigoted, and..who failed, as many do, to act up fully to their beliefs.

In the lowest division of this realm...

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

AJ Phillips.

You have stated that beliefs no matter how benign affect people and wider society.

I couldn't agree more.

It is the ordinary mums and dads with simple belief systems, who contribute billions of dollars annually both in man hours and funds raised to disadvantaged groups. If it weren't for these people, the government would have to find this. Without their simple belief, these people might not bother. Also they are united under a strong common bond, which creates harmony of co-operation. People with a belief system share a particularly, unique bond. I believe all fair-minded people would agree.

You will undoubtedly respond that atheists can also do this. But there is no guarantee, certainly about the numbers who would do so. Additionally they would not have the bond, that people of the same religion have, a bond which works very well.

Another argument was that of those relying upon faith instead of doing something ... I had a catholic upbringing and a constant was "god helps those who help themselves; "do everything you can, and then trust in god".

You raised the issue of homeopathy, which as far as I know is not born out of a religious system. And yes, it is dangerous. But any fundamentalist belief system is ... whether it be religion, ideology , philosophy, and the other myriad areas of dottiness ... Most of which, atheism, with its concern about religion, would not counter.

Medical annals report that mostly those who have a belief system do better during treatment and have better prognoses than those that don't. This is especially so with cancer.

You state the reason some need religion to be happy, is due to a bad society. Many, many people who get some joy from their religion, are quite inured from the ills of society and indeed have fulfilled lives, but their religious belief gives their lives an added dimension.

cont ..

I am sorry Danniells but I disagree with nearly all of your last post, you have been brought up a Catholic and will always be one,I was brought up as a srict Methodist but saw the light in my later life that the Bible was all fairy tales, and Atheism was for me, you must understand if Atheists congregate then immediately is classed as an Atheist church, which we do not want, surprisingly I have a very religious sister in lawa who did nothing for my mother in her last years of life, she relied on the Atheist side of the family, likewise I live next door to Catholics but if the neighbours want help they come to the Atheists, which is us, Microsoft owner donates millions to charity the same as any religious person, we all donate where possible, if we also look at Obama & Bush, war mongering people, but bible bashers at the same time.
Daniells I am tired of this post as those who believe will always believe except those that see the light and change to Atheism or nothing, and I know quite a few clergy who have.
Keep also in mind that churches whether giving to charity or not, and many don't, receive tax free grants from the Government.
Yes!all people will give to charities and as a last say on this topic I would sooner the money spent by our Government on neceesary projects, rather than having two pampered and rich people coming out to Australia next year, we should get our priorities right.

Ojnab,

As you are a departed Methodist, I am a departed Catholic. From my earliest recollections I had problems with Catholicism, becoming strident as I grew older, until these were untenable; as was Christianity.

This was me. Obviously it doesn't extend to everyone.

However, whatever position I take, I endeavour to be even-handed and fair. No debate can be conducted without these principles.

Many of the most generous philanthropists follow a religion.

Microsoft donate to religious denominations.

AJ Phillips.

cont ...

Like you, I detest any religion which damages individuals or society in any way. But, at least here in Australia, there is very little fundamentalism or extremism. Religions as practiced here are gentle and benign. You mention condemnation of homosexuals, etc. etc. There are clerics prepared to wed homosexuals, and certainly stand up for their rights ...And the list goes on for every ill you contribute to religion ...

In addition, for every "negative" you see about religious beliefs, (ie about homosexuality) there are just as many atheist joe-blows who also condemn it, ... and perhaps act upon their dislike in undesirable ways ...

Perhaps I am fortunate, but non of my friends who maintain a religious belief - and I do rank friends among such - have ever disparaged homosexuals.

From my personal observation, among "believers" there are various shades of belief as there are various shades of theological knowledge. This makes an enormous difference to outcomes.

The biggest problem with atheists is that they risk throwing the baby out with the bath water and thus leave society in certain ways diminished.

It was Emile Durkheim, one of the first sociologists
to apply the perspective to religion in a systematic
way. His study, "The Elementary Forms of Religious Life,"
was first published in 1912 and has since become a classic.
Many of Durkheim's contemporaries saw religion as nothing
more than a primitive relic that would soon disappear in
the more sophisticated modern world. But Durkheim was
impressed by the fact that religion is universal in
human society, and he wondered why this should be so.
His answer was that religion has a vital function in
maintaining the social system as a whole.

Durkheim believed that the origins of religion were social,
not supernatural. He pointed out that whatever their
source, the rituals enacted in any religion enhance the
solidarity of the community as well as its faith.

Consider such rituals as Baptism, Bar Mitzvah, Weddings,
Sabbath services, Christmas Mass, and funerals.
Rituals like these serve to bring people together, to remind
them of their common group membership, to reaffirm
their traditional values, to maintain prohibitions and
taboos, to offer comfort in times of crisis, and in general to
help transmit the cultural heritage from one generation
to the next.

In fact, Durkheim argued, shared religious beliefs and
the rituals that go with them are so important that every
society needs a religion, or at least some belief system
that serves the same functions.

For many years it was widely felt that as science
progressively provided rational explanations for the
mysteries of the universe, religion would have less and
less of a role to play and would eventually disappear,
unmasked as nothing more than superstition. But there are
gaps in our understanding that science can never fill.
On the ultimately important questions - of the meaning
and purpose of life and the nature of morality.

Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny
the possibility of some higher power in the universe,
some supernatural, transcendental realm that lies
beyond the boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this
fundamental sense religion is probably here to stay.

Foxy,

Thank you for raising Emile Durkheim and adding those comments.

Very few sociologists would refute his thesis.

David G,

>> the best I could come up was successfully voiding bodily wastes<<

This sounds like a concise summary of your philosophy, whether or not intended as such. I am not sure if it enhances the intellectual level of these discussions but I am sure that most atheists are more sophisticated than this in expressing their views.

Foxy,

As usual, a good post. I don't want to add anything, only refer to a discussion about Durkheim that we already had here on http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4898&page=0#130797 and the sequel, for those interested.

George,

I guess we'll just have to write this one off as a bizarre co-incidence then.

<<Plese note that the post was addressed to Danielle, not to you; you were not mentioned or meant in that post.>>

But you could understand my confusion given that Danielle had just posted a comment suggesting that some here are intolerant (with a focus on me evident in her ‘conversion’ comment), just before you posted your comment.

<<It certainly was not meant to restart many of our arguments that always end with my assurance that I did not want to convert you.>>

Ah, yes!

And then I would remind you that that's not a concern of mine, and of the absurdity in suggesting that an atheist could actually be afraid of adopting a different position in the complete absence of any dogma.

Fun times!

Don't forget how productive our discussions were too, though. We’ve established so much! Last time it was the dishonesty of obscurantism, and I think the time before that, we confirmed that The Binding of Isaac is indeed an immoral story. This silliness of using quantum physics to shoehorn God into science came in there somewhere too.

<<Whether or not she sees the post as a smear is up to Dannielle.>>

Indeed. Though, I never presumed to know how Danielle perceived your comments, so I'm not sure what your point is here. Whether or not your comments actually were a smear, however, is more the point.

Danielle,

Thanks for the reply. Some very common arguments there.

I can’t possibly respond to all of that adequately in one hit. So, for starters, I’ll refer you to some articles that I found that regarding your points about charity that clear up some common myths and put what you’ve said into perspective:

http://atheism.about.com/b/2010/05/26/religious-charity-no-difference-in-blood-donations.htm
http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/03/24/comment-of-the-week-atheism-charity.htm
http://atheism.about.com/b/2013/12/12/religion-vs-social-ties-what-causes-more-charitable-giving.htm (This one addresses your point about health as well)

<<You have stated that beliefs no matter how benign affect people and wider society.>>

That’s only one part of the problem. What about the fact that most religions are immoral belief systems?

Continued…

…Continued

Take Christianity, for example: its notion of original sin is deeply immoral, and its solution to it (the absolving of wrong-doings through the sacrifice of another) is even worse. I don’t think we should ever turn a blind eye to immoral belief systems.

Have you considered, too, whether or not the benefits of no religion would far outweigh the absence of religious charities? Or if the need for charity would decline without religion? The Catholic Church does a lot in Africa, but had they promoted the liberation of women there instead of trying to control their reproductive organs through poisonous doctrines, then they’d alleviate poverty. The alleviation of poverty begins with the liberation of women so that they’re not chained by their husbands or by village custom to animal-like treatment of continuous pregnancies, early death and disease. The Catholic Church’s presence in Africa potentially exacerbates the problem.

Rather than listing a gazillion negatives that wouldn’t exist in the absence of religion (many of which most don’t even think of or realise), I’ll leave you here with statistics showing the strong correlation between religiosity and societal health:

http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.pdf
http://www.skepticmoney.com/tabular-relationship-of-religion-and-iq-poverty-murder-theft-divorce-giving-and-health/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdtwTeBPYQA

<<I had a catholic upbringing and a constant was "god helps those who help themselves; "do everything you can, and then trust in god".>>

The faith healing problem aside, I had a protestant upbringing and I cannot stress how tempted many are to skip to that last redundant bit.

<<...any fundamentalist belief system is ... whether it be religion, ideology , philosophy, and the other myriad areas of dottiness…>>

I already addressed this somewhat in my first post to you. To add to that, I’d point out that not many other beliefs systems have a doctrine that encourages so many of their adherents to bring about the end of the world, and destroy the planet in the belief that a messiah will return before that could happen.

<<…many people who get some joy from their religion, are quite inured from the ills of society and indeed have fulfilled lives, but their religious belief gives their lives an added dimension.>>

Continued…

…Continued

Yes, but that doesn’t really negate what I said.

What I’d also add, too, is that if people need to turn to false hope for comfort, then it is an indication that they are not being equipped with the tools to cope adequately, and having religion there as a crutch saps our motivation to do something about this and makes it easier to shelve the problems.

<<...at least here in Australia, there is very little fundamentalism or extremism.>>

Maybe, but cumulatively, they all still help to legitimise the extremists all over the world.

<<Religions as practiced here are gentle and benign.>>

Relatively, yeah. But even a lot of the moderates can cause damage through their good intentions (e.g. the strict teaching of abstinence, creationism, objection to stem cell research, stigmatising of women who have/seek abortions, the list goes on and on...).

<<You mention condemnation of homosexuals, etc. etc.>>

Yes, but these people are still very much a minority, and the list I provided was really only scratching the surface. There are entire books written on this stuff.

<<...for every "negative" you see about religious beliefs, (ie about homosexuality) there are just as many atheist joe-blows who also condemn it…>>

Ah, but religion makes a virtue of it and has a doctrine supporting it.

<<The biggest problem with atheists is that they risk throwing the baby out with the bath water and thus leave society in certain ways diminished.>>

Given what I’ve just said, I think that risk is pretty damn small.

<<Very few sociologists would refute [Durkheim's]thesis.>>

As someone who is currently studying some sociology subjects, I can assure you many would. Structural functionalism (Durkheim’s baby) is but one of 15 or so sociological perspectives from which to view religions. Try asking a Conflict Theorist, Feminist or a Weberian what they think of religion’s role in society and you’ll get a very different answer.

Dear AJ Philips,

First, thanks for the link:

It tells that in Awra Amba people are:
1) without-organised-religion; and
2) more prosperous than Christians/Muslims.

The causative-connection is weak, only that they work 7-days/week. So can and should people work without rest or time-for-hobbies?
Isn't it more-likely that it's the vision of Zumra Nuru that's responsible for the prosperity?
He declared himself that: "Everyone here dreams of becoming more prosperous — that's a big reason why our economy has grown faster than others".

Even if there was a causative connection, what about the woman who claimed that her community is spiritual and moral (in other words, religious)?

While digging in the pile-of-old-posts, I identified certain concerns about how, you-presumably-believe, religion is detrimental to others. It's quite-possible that these were not your most pertinent and it's quite-possible that I haven't identified all your concerns: wouldn't it be better then if you simply list your concerns clearly rather than send me off to search for them?

I've identified 5 concerns:

1. Diversion of resources.

I acknowledged that religion diverts resources away from social projects, even away from prosperity.
It was however important, I believe, to note that "that is not specific to religion", that flying kites also has the same effect.

2. That religion denies "Live and let live".

I explained that religion doesn't do so, only people who distort religion.

3. That religion separates us.

I tried to explain with a-limited-number-of-words that while religion may separate the religious from your activities-and-projects, it does not separate them in essence from YOU. I tried to provide an adequate-metaphysical-explanation, but-had-no-space.

4. That mankind cannot live unless religion dies.

I explained that mankind will not live this-way-or-the-other, yet that religion is indestructible because the scope of religion goes way beyond human affairs.

5. That religion is tied to "bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence and sheer ignorance".

I tried to explain (but failed bitterly due to word-count) that the social/political aspects of organised-religion have little to do with religion.

I see that you just addressed Danielle with further-points: Could you please let me know which are most pertinent?

Dear AJ Philips,

<<If you are going to make extraordinary claims, then it is only common sense that you support them with some evidence and/or reasoning. Why would you not want to dignify your opinions with justifications?>>

In the context, my original extraordinary claim was addressed to Grateful: I claimed that hell is better than heaven!
I provided reasoning, but had no reason to believe that Grateful would be interested in a proof.

Later, you asked me questions and I answered.
All I intended by answering was:

1) to be polite.
2) to prevent a false-impression that religion is harmful.
3) to prevent a false-impression that I have no answer or that my views are inconsistent.
4) to provide spiritual answers and assurance to those readers (including silent-readers and future-readers) of spiritual inclinations who read your claims and ask themselves: "indeed, isn't this a problem, how can this fit with what I learned so far?"
5) to provide alternatives to those religious people who as a result of atheist arguments can no longer continue with organised-religion.

For me and for modern religious people in general, objective proofs are of no value. The results we seek are subjective anyway, so we prefer to verify the truth of teachings and scripture by our own subjective experience.

While I don't like proofs, I use justifications occasionally - from scripture; from what I learned from others who are further ahead on the path to God than myself; and from my own direct experience.

Now suppose I was able to provide you with a proof: what could I possibly achieve by that?
Could I gain anything if you said to yourself: "Sh?t, the guy must be right, so I must now change my life into something I don't like"?
Would that truly make you love God, or would it achieve the opposite and make you feel trapped, then fear and hate Him instead?

As I wrote last week in http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15825&page=0#274009 , Woe unto those who require evidence to support their belief.

A J Phillips,

Like you I cannot address all the points raised. However, I will address a few ...

I agree absolutely with your comments regarding the RC church in Africa. But the RC church is not the only Christian church, others are more in tune with wider society.

Original Sin. I don't think the average Christian lies awake at night contemplating the nature of this. It is irrelevant.

" ... most religions are immoral belief systems? ..."

As the religious majority in Australia is Christian, we will discuss these.

The decalogue was an extraordinarily sophisticated list of laws, particularly for the period it was compiled - the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age - a period when other groups were hurling their babies into open fire pits. Whilst societies evolve and mores change, the basic concepts for the most part remain current . I don't think that many would deny that the person of Jesus had important things to impart.

" beliefs systems ... to bring about the end of the world ..."

We are not discussing fundamentalism but mainstream religion, as practiced in this country.

" ... cumulatively, they all still help to legitimise the extremists all over the world."

Perhaps you can provide an example. The reverse would be closer to the mark.

" But even a lot of the moderates can cause damage through their good intentions... strict teaching of abstinence, creationism, objection to stem cell research, stigmatising of wIomen who have/seek abortions, ..."

Exactly what damage ... ?

I have yet to meet a Christian who promotes abstinence. The RC church may, but most catholics don't endorse, nor follow this idea. Do other religious denominations promote abstinence, or is it just RC?

Creationism. This is a fundamentalist doctrine, not applicable to main stream religions here.

Stem cell research. Some religious groups did question it, as did some ethicists. This resulted in wide-spread debate - a very healthy sign in a society. Research continues unabated.
www.stemcellsaustralia.edu.au

cont ...

gee we are..a lot of 'night owls'..arnt we..
anyhow..i note danielle..is still replying..so..briefly

glad to see..aj..is back..sadly no greatefull..like others i was so hoping he would explain..things..for us..to open..us up on....the divisions..EVEN...of the messengers message..as i..understand it..its basically..one..believes ONLY..the messengers children..can speak..for the messenger

the other believe he was..talking to/all..saying all..can talk..
but like everything..else/of men..has become the derision..of that he TRIED..to.teach..us.

same jesus..he DIDNT COME..to/deliver a church
jesus didnt come..toform..a new religion[it was men..who/did it]
luther..SAW*..that the church..had become.too creeed/ritual..based

wesly..well wasnt the church/of england..simply the crown..not liking to/be told?[the mormans..wasnt that yet again[originally]..the quakers..rejection..of creed over god?

see aj..all your links indicate..to/me..is power grabs on/to ANY reigns/of power it can grab..surely..if god himself says its so..YOU..MUST OBEY..[if not we have our army..or mercinaries[even assasinating priests]

anyhow my respected anti'religion..brother..icant defend 'churches'..i cant defend creed/rite/ritual/ignorance..nor idiots seeking special/dispensation..powers..over others..[im here..just for god/doing what i presume..'jesus'..would be doing..were he still here[defending god]

the personal/living/omnipresent good god[not the vengeful man made god of religious extremists[should we judge ALL churches as equally..assisting..or hindering..the good?

jresus said..myne fathers kingdom..hast many rooms
ishowed ypu tthe rooms[but proper heaven=open plan[but first wee must see the toilet..is in the adjoining rooms.

aj..i know you must like in a big house[because only the comfortably off can even..think..of other[and you do]..so surely..you will comprehend..the parable..

a man cometh home..he leaves his shoes at the door[to/say..im home/and to keep the little wopman..WHO"S HOME..it reallyis ..happy]

anyhow..you enter via the hallway[although some enter via the kitchen/yet others via windows..but regardless you enter [die]..via the masters entrance..you take off..your mortal apparel..[hat/wig uniform/coat]..and hang them-in the closset..[aastral/realm].then..

then..you may proceed..to the bathroom..or toilet..to/wash-off the days[life-times]..dirt..often/there you..leave your stained garments behind you/unthinkingly..but then may proceed to the bed chambers/for a brief nap..or to/the kitchen..for some food..BUT..evebntualy..you end upingods sitting room[the dinning room]..where we ALLgot a seat..at our fathers table

thats what heaven/hell etc is allabout
im with you re the evil..DONE IN/THE NAME..of good
but god..is/the only good..god is only seen in good/good works..reveal god..[and i see no evil in your words..but sadly..no question either]

everyday-ajday
now if only we could all..be great-full*
[as can..only be revealed..by our works.]

hopefully..not by doing a runner/like grateful..dun.
yu..have dani welle..[you have done well]..and george..i..so hope we shall sit at lunch one fine ETERNAL-day..with aj..and be ever so gratefull*

ahhmen..sucha clever god..to give us
soooommuch..for so little..

ahhhh men

(cont ...)

AJ Phillips,

Whatever some religious denominations may claim about homosexuality (and some openly accept it) the laity makes its own mind up about it; indeed it does about many things religious.

A large proportion of homosexuals want church weddings, suggesting the degree of acceptance they feel. They obviously don't think they risk being chased by outraged church members.

Weber's fundamental thesis damned the Protestant work ethic as the genesis of Capitalism. The "Marxist" Conflict Theorists would see no value in religion. Feminists embrace different aspects of different theorists. In contrast to religious groups who accept gay marriage, notice the deafening silence by feminists - yet gay liberation was a priority with them. Possibly understandable ..."marriage is a male tool for female oppression." On the other hand, some female religious leaders are feminists.

The question begs. How would atheists eradicate religion?

Not many of the faithful would be amicable to being told that they need to stop believing in fairly tales and grow up. Forcing them to engage in debate ... ? Nah ...! Imprisoning parents who teach their children? That's a bit harsh!

The Communists tried it, and it flourished underground and Communists could be "persuasive".

For those who gain comfort from their religion, why would anyone want to destroy this, albeit replacing it with psychological counselling, which never has guarantees with it. What does it matter if their comfort and raison d'etre is from, as you say "fairy tales" - at least it is comfort.

Our lives are lived through fairy-tales, even atheists believe in fairy-tales. It is all a matter of perspective. Most areas of our life has some "fairy-tale" attached to it. A fairy-tale (I think you have) is that those who embrace religion, would be happier and better functioning in a prosaic world, devoid of any faith. If their fairytales hurt none other, then why ...? Apart from stating that they should "grow up" rid themselves of "fairy tales" ...

The Dalai Lama is greatly admired, a true "gown up" - but the living incarnation of "fairy-tale." What would you say to him?

J S Phillips,

Our breath-taking Western architecture, music, literature and the arts we have inherited, has as you would say, been born of the stuff of fairy-tales. I would think that any creative endeavour emerges from some fairy-tale in the mind of its creator.

I lived for many years in a multi-cultured, multi-racial, multi-religious country. The religious festivals - the colour, the food, the communal happiness and togetherness were wonderful. We all shared it irrespective of religion. How dreary life would be without celebrations which have at the heart, a further dimension, a belief system.

I am not ready for experiences, logically mapped out, predictable, devoid of "fairy-tales" ... and ultimately dreary and grey.

I believe (perhaps my fairy-tale) Foxy's comments to be completely sound. They certainly resonate with my experience and perceptions.

I leave it to others to provide ontological reasons for belief in their religion.

AJ Phillips,

I sincerely apologise for getting your initials wrong.

Danielle

<<I lived for many years in a multi-cultured, multi-racial, multi-religious country. The religious festivals - the colour, the food, the communal happiness and togetherness were wonderful>>

What country would that be?
I hope you are not talking(romanticizing) about Malaysia!

aj..spc..change of topic
maybe we can work together..here
[snowden/showdown/thread]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0

GOD..himself..has vindicated..ed*ward
he was the sign..of your times*

anyhow some other topics
i will be gratefull..for your help
please be ..ruthless..not truthless

a hungry child..canT..learn/thus cant earn..
thus becomes an..ignorant/willful..angry child
[like we see with..the darklord..2 de term/lame-duck..obomber

[thats why his WIFE..shall/be vp
plus two terms

thus..SHE..will..be the[vip/vp]
under yell*son..the anti bolchovic..[not homophobic]

govt is there..[at the muck gate]..at the right time..for those who cant learn..but the rich/fat master controller

[read inquizitor]..
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/wsl/wsl11.htm

must see...the light of day..any-day soon..[he folows the trailof betrayal..seeking the power-person..we present..them to him..not tellinghim..of the/one big stick..

matriacalroyalty
[he is oldd schoool..would he dainaa female form[or a better
more symbolical sharon..separately..we cant drive ,,their own..ignorance's away..but together we can create the position..where there canbe nomore inquizition

but we need the watchers eyes..to awake those who are man-kinds best hope[thus only leaders and their spouces[we must offer the messiah..the best voice[hence alex]..thenhe needs to get to me[the joker wild card]

i will have more to say..but feel
im -saying it all-ready..as only one with nuthiing at all..darte raise[eraise]..the call

but

why cast pearl before swine..[im awaiting a sign]
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0

why finish..revealing..that only..mens ignorance=concealing
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15820&page=0

i got....my own problems
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15840&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15844&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6153&page=0

and dont get me started ..on/the worlds problems
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15664&page=0

but we..keep our problems separate
just as we must join-our solutions..together

athiests here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6098&page=0#176065

dreamers here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

work here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152&page=0

pope stuff
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6119&page=0

in-flow[info]..here.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/node
here
http://xml.nfowars.net/Alex.rss
or just here[everywhere]..my guides will decide

but first men must decide is this mad man..or fool
imnot allowed to act..but fully permitted..to re-act..
ihave the spell..to awakenpeace..or reawakenhell..ijust need the rightmix..of alloof us of every blood kith/kin..and we shall hasve peace on earth..as it is in heaven

ort hell on earth..[the do nothing..option]..
but rubbish/in..rubbish out

give me correction..show me youdont care about the messenger..refine the message

no more messiahs
its all..or 0

Yes SPQR,

I lived in Malaysia for seven years from 1954 - 1960 during the Emergency.

Danielle,

Malayisia a place of <<multi-cultured, multi-racial, multi-religious ... communal happiness and togetherness...>>

You have got to be joking!

http://www.infowars.com/there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-safe-vaccine-and-there-never-will-be/

its gods will they killed my computer
listen to..sundays alexjones/show
http://xml.nfowars.net/Alex.rss

try getting involved with the snowden thread

SPQR,

When I was there they were a happy and gentle people ... apart for the communist emergency, which is a different issue.

THE NEW CHALLENGES OF POLITICAL ISLAM IN MALAYSIA, Working Paper No.154, June 2009, by Ahmad Fauzi Abdul Hamid (Universiti Sains Malaysia)

Abstract:
Long regarded as an embodiment of tolerant Islam peacefully co-existing with modernisation within a multi-ethnic and multi-religious society ... Rising occurrences of Islamist-related terrorist violence have been cited as evidence of surging Southeast Asian Muslim radicalism, to which Malaysia, the rarity of its Islam-related commotions notwithstanding, is held not be immune. Both foreign analysts and the Malaysian government have been inclined to situate such an obtrusive phenomenon within the context of the rising penetration into the country of doctrinal rigidity espoused by the Wahhabi-Salafi school of thought predominant in contemporary Middle East. Traditionally acting as recipients rather than generators of intellectual developments within the ummah, Malaysian Muslims, as part of the non-Arab Muslim periphery, are said to be susceptible to Middle Eastern-originated radicalism, as exemplified in interlocking transnational contacts and agendas sowed between increasingly globalised Islamist networks adept in exploiting latest trappings of modernity. ... It is argued that, belying the regime’s profession of a form of progressive Islam known as Islam Hadhari, Malaysia under Abdullah Ahmad Badawi’s Premiership has witnessed an abrupt escalation of inter-religious tension which not only threatens to disrupt communal harmony and nation-building, but also poses a security risk. The origins of such instability could arguably be located to political Islamism within the regime, in particular to its home-nurtured Islamic bureaucracy, which has become Islamist.

"... past orthodoxy ... posited Southeast Asian Islam as the quintessence of peaceful and tolerant Islam – an ‘Islam with a smiling face' which prioritised spiritualism over legalism (Wright-Neville 2004a: 27-29).

Malaysia's strategic trade/economic partner is the Middle East, and Islam of the ME is Political-Islam, radical Islam. I wouldn't recognise the place now.

Many Indonesians seeing the same problems arising there, condemn admitting teachers from Ryadah bringing not only a grim fundamentalist Islam, but also an un-culture.

im CHALLENGING..the free*association..law
on new years eve..at the south bank[i will be coming from the east/likely by train]..i will be wearing my true colours

my name will be under..my..biker name
[nightmare]..the signage holding on my colors..have symbolism
that will be tattooed upon my flesh..just in case they try..to take my colours..

the words on my patch..will include the words info wars/nightmare
one under god then 178808..i expect my death./.by police man
somewhere around 11;11 pm..[so my father advises]

its all..to try to link to..this
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6152#178808

anyhow war is over..if we want to
cheers..

its not gods will
its my promise..love you dani elle

following the petition..re gods will..do try to catch up
where..are we..in relation..to revelations..?

let it snow..[the sign/of the times]
http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-3.htm
what links the cold spell..in the north?

A Wanderer in the Sprit Lands, by Franchezzo
(A. Farnese), [1896], at sacred-texts.com
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

CHAPTER IX.--The Frozen Land--The Caverns of Slumber.
I was next sent to visit what will indeed seem a strange country to exist in the spirit world. The Land of Ice and Snow--the Frozen Land--in which lived all those who had been cold and selfishly calculating in their earthly lives.

Those who had crushed out and chilled and frozen from their own lives and the lives of others, all those warm sweet impulses and affections which make the life of heart and soul. Love had been so crushed and killed by them that its sun could not shine where they were, and only the frost of life remained.

Great statesmen were amongst those whom I saw dwelling in this land, but they were those who had not loved their country nor sought its good. Only their own ambitions, their own aggrandizement had been their aim, and to me they now appeared to dwell in great palaces of ice and on the lofty frozen pinnacles of their own ambitions.

Others more humble and in different paths in life I saw, but all alike were chilled and frozen by the awful coldness and barrenness of a life from which all warmth, all passion, was shut out.

I had learned the evils of an excess of emotion and of passion, now I saw the evils of their entire absence. Thank God this land had far fewer inhabitants than the other, for terrible as are the effects of mis-used love, they are not so hard to overcome as the absence of all the tender feelings of the human heart.

Yuyutsu & Danielle,

Sorry about the delay in reply. I was just going to let this go (given the time of year and the fact that I probably won’t even be able to answer it all in four posts), but the thought of doing so still seems wrong. It would be wrong of me to just leave remarks - that on the surface seem reasonable - to go unaddressed as if there were nothing more to say. Particularly on a topic that myself and others feel is one of the most important.

And besides, it just looks like evasiveness on my behalf; which would be particularly unfortunate given that I have addressed most the points made here several times before on OLO.

I’ll try to get back to you both in a week or so.

The author wrote: “I hold the view that religions are predominantly about a love that unites humanity and seek to share the resources of the world equitably. Thus, I believe in a God who does not punish non-believers.”
Everald, my understanding is that God is justice. He has forewarn us all of the fate of the non-believers. We have all been given the opportunity to know Allah experientially and being forewarned is forearmed. Our fate relies on the Mercy of our creature and our rank in the Hereafter upon our deeds in this life. The disbeliever chooses their fate, they seek nothing of the Hereafter, and so they attain nothing of the Hereafter. As for Hell, without it is a mercy for those who heed the warning and a source of justice, as this hadith with it accompanying story, illustrates.

A Sweeper Becomes a Millionaire

The Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “(Often it so happens that) for a certain believer, Allah ordains a high position that he cannot achieve by himself. So Allah afflicts him with some physical or material distress or grief from within his family, whereby he is granted the good fortune of being patient. Thus Allah raises him to the high station originally decreed for him.” [Abu Dawud]

An expatriate working as a street sweeper in Makkah saw his life change in a blink during Hajj season after his estranged brother sought to make amends for wronging him by returning his share of the family fortune.

The Bangladeshi man was sweeping Taneem Street in Makkah when an old man wearing the Ihram cloth of Hajj pilgrims crossed the busy road and embraced him warmly much to the perplexity of passersby. However, the sweeper returned the embrace, indicating his familiarity with the older man.

Cont ...

Cont ...

The embrace in fact was between two brothers who had not seen each other for more than five years in the aftermath of a bitter dispute over inheritance rights, Saudi news site Sabq reported. The two men were from a wealthy family in Bangladesh, but the older brother had refused to give his sibling his share of the inheritance estimated at 17 million Saudi Riyals in cash and several properties.

The older man even managed to have his younger brother sent to prison when he asked for his share. The younger brother, disappointed and dejected, opted to leave Bangladesh and work as a sweeper in the holy city of Makkah. As it turns out, the sweeper has become a millionaire in his home country.

He told the people who gathered around him and his brother that he had forgiven his brother who had apologised profusely for mistreating him and that he was ready to return home.

The older man said that he had been diagnosed with cancer and that he was not sure how long he would live. He had looked for his brother in several places to ask for his forgiveness and make amends for all the years of deprivation he had forced him to endure. He even offered financial rewards to whoever could help him locate his brother.

The younger brother said he was ready to forget the past and move forward with his new life. “I will always be kind to the poor and the needy,” he said. “I have learned a lot about deprivation and poverty in the last five years. I will always be fair with everyone after the years of injustice I lived through,” he said in Arabic, a language he learned during the time he spent sweeping the streets of Makkah.

Everald, the best explanation of God’s mercy that i have come across, that addresses the question of evil, is the following essay by Shaykh Nuh Ha Min Keller in reply to the question “What does Allah allow suffering and evil? What is evil?”:

http://untotheone.com/articles/qa/suffering-and-divine-wisdom/

I doubt you’ll find a much more comprehensive and coherent explanation.

salaams

greatfull..thank you for that real..life story
i..prefer the mosus/satan/revelation..it reveals very much
about both satan..and mosus...its mind opening

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_901_950/story_of_moses_and_the_guide.htm

A small but poignent reminder of what people do when they have no guidance or fear of being held accountable for their actions:

"The teenage victim was one of 130 people treated by St Vincent's Hospital emergency staff into the early hours of New Year's Day.

"He was only one of many who were knocked unconscious," he said.

"Every hour we had at least two patients who had been knocked unconscious. There was a particularly nasty attack on a lady who was punched to the ground and then kicked. It's not just violence, it's brutality."

Staff also treated a higher than average number of victims of domestic violence as well as people who had injured themselves as a result of intoxication. There were also three heart attack patients and, at 5am, someone who had accidentally walked into the path of a bus.

"It was one of the busiest New Year's Eves we have had in terms of patient numbers," he said. "It was extra busy in terms of the number of patients with head injuries and the number of people suffering alcohol-related injuries."

He said a heavy police presence mitigated the number of violent incidents, which were still unacceptably high.

"Without the police it would have been a lot worse but they can't be everywhere all the time," he said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/its-not-just-violence-its-brutality-new-years-eve-aggression-keeps-medics-busy-20140101-305m8.html#ixzz2p7IMTfeP"

A belief in the Hell-fire would prevent this behaviour and so for me this represents another example of the Mercy from our Creator. In contrast, how many "ethics classes" or police patrols would you need to prevent this sort of behaviour?

Dear Grateful,

<<A belief in the Hell-fire would prevent this behaviour>>

Very true indeed, but belief in Hell-fire also has its down-side and is therefore only appropriate for some people, generally for those who are only starting their journey on the religious path.

While I do not deny for a moment the efficacy of the religious instruction to SOME people that "God sends those who drink alcohol to hell", I must also point its drawbacks:

1. It is harder for someone who obeys God out of fear to turn around and come to love God, the object of his fear.

2. It promotes the materialistic idea as if hell is a bad thing which should be avoided while heaven is a good thing which should be desired. This is OK for beginners, but this kind of materialism needs to be overcome at a later stage, or else one might wander in the wilderness of materialism under the delusion that they are very religious.

3. Scripture, being finite in volume, cannot give answers to what the will of God is in each and every life situation. Surely, beginners on the path of religion should be given firm and clear instructions, but ultimately one needs to learn and develop their inner sensitivity to the will of God.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Thankyou for the thoughtful response. Its always good to meet a fellow-traveller, so to speak. I'm in no position to answer your question because it is a question that only someone with the appropriate training should be answering.Perhaps the following excerpt from the above-mentioned article will address some of the issues you raise:

" Fear and hope, in these successive stages, remain the two wings of the traveller, for those most in love with the Beloved remain the most fearful of offending Him and being expelled from His presence. As Abu Madyan said, “Presence with Him is paradise, and absence from Him is hell.” The possibility of punishment and suffering remains a spur on the way of spiritual attainment, even at its highest degrees, until the traveller has both feet in paradise, and can see for himself the triumph of the transformations Allah has thereby wrought in him."

Imagine a child who fears misbehaving because he has learned (the hard way) that his father will return home and give him spank. Think of this child as your "beginner". As he gets older and starts to benefit from the discipline, at school and by keeping himself out of trouble, his fear is not of getting spanked but of upsetting his father. why? He loves his father and does not want to do anything that will see his father turn away from him. This is my, albeit limp, understanding of “Presence with Him is paradise, and absence from Him is hell.”

cont..

cont..

Also your statement "God sends those who drink alcohol to hell", is not accurate. One can be a believer and drink alcohol. You disobey your lord and you are aware that you are disobeying your lord. I'd suggest such a person is going to be more open to a reform than someone who is not a believer. The reason is that he can find hope in his belief, such as the following hadith

The Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said, “Allah the Most High said, ‘I am as My servant thinks (expects) I am. I am with him when he mentions Me. If he mentions Me to himself, I mention him to Myself; and if he mentions Me in an assembly, I mention him in an assembly greater than it. If he draws near to Me a hand’s length, I draw near to him an arm’s length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.’”

and..

Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, "Allah, the Exalted, has said: `I will declare war against him who treats with hostility a pious worshipper of Mine. And the most beloved thing with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (voluntary prayers or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) until I love him, (so much so that) I become his hearing with which he hears, and his sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he strikes, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me something, I will surely give him, and if he seeks My Protection (refuge), I will surely protect him".

salaams

greatfull..thank you for that real..life story
i..prefer the mosus/satan/revelation..it reveals very much
about both satan..and mosus...its mind opening

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_901_950/story_of_moses_and_the_guide.htm

OUG,

Yes i agree. It really is a valuable lesson in humility in terms of our ever so limited knowledge and inability to judge what is just and unjust other than through the guidance that God has sent us. We simply are not in a position to do so on our own.

take care and salaams

Yuyutsi, you wrote:

"Scripture, being finite in volume, cannot give answers to what the will of God is in each and every life situation. Surely, beginners on the path of religion should be given firm and clear instructions, but ultimately one needs to learn and develop their inner sensitivity to the will of God."

Exactly, and we develop our "inner sensitivity to the will of God" through a process of cleansing our hearts of ills such as envy, backbiting, showing off, greed, grudges....and replacing them will good habits: love, kindness, generosity, self-sacrifice, ... However, as you indicate, Revelation teaches us to change bad habits and replace them with good habits, but it does not tell us how. So we need a trustworthy and knowledgeable teacher who can guide us. In Islam this is the role of sufi shaykh

"The transformation of the heart is not easy: bad habits are formed over time and the nafs (the self or ego or "me") deceives one in subtle ways. Islamic revelation teaches Muslims to change habits but it does not tell how. Therefore, we consult those who know, the scholars. To keep the company of a teacher and follow his example are teachings of the sunnah. Islamic knowledge is transferred from person to person, not just from writings. The nature of knowledge is concerned with the state of being not just knowing." http://untotheone.com/public/1998-virginia-suhba/

The follow online CD provides an introduction to the science of sufism:
http://untotheone.com/public/the-sufi-path-cd/
take care and salaams

[Deleted.Off-topic.]

[Deleted. Off-topic]

Thank you Grateful,

I listened to the CD of Sheikh Nuh and found it true religion of the first class, fitting perfectly with the teachings of all religions.

It is a pity that Muslims are commonly thought to be seeking heaven for sensual (or even sexual) pleasures, but are those real Muslims who do? As I understand from the lectures, this must be a feature of the Wahhabi sect rather than the original meaning of Islam. All established religions have been corrupted in some ways, but those who seek God shall always be able to find the source of live waters.

May peace and the grace of Allah be upon you.

gods will..is to do..our wILL
as wE evolve..ever furthER from one..and other,,the UNI-VERSE..expands[like a bALLoon expands]..

as the 'balloon expanded..we went from 'the deep'..[when all outer space..was like a huge water/TREACLE-like void/deep...from then..till this time THE DEEP became like water/like vacuum/space..following..The big bang inflation/expansion STAGE..IN THE CYCLE.

hOW TO EXPLAIN..THAT THE presure..that expands the big bang
is from the realms..of those departed[that as we drew EVER more appart/sepperate..more 'expantion..was nessitated..as god willed as we wiLLED[ROOm to move]

well THE THING..is..as we draw ever 'closer'..THE 'UNI-VERSE..BEGINS ITS Contraction stage..[now this can happen..gradualy..but moRE LIKELY..happeNS..with a bang[on the LAST DAY]

nOW NONE DARE CALL THE DAY..but the further..we move apart..
tHE FURTHER THE EVENTUAL..fall...THAT COMETH..SUDDENLY AND SOON*

by the signs of our times
we knOW BBUBBLES[inflated bubbles BURST..VERY FAST
so guys..draw closer..before even thiNKING ABOUT FURTHER DIVISION/by dire-version...

[feaR has had its day/
WE..all are equally..THE material/living mortal heirs[en-joined]
OF THE immortal ETERNAL OMNIPRESENT life sustaining presence..

all loving..who's light/lOVE LOGIC..sustains us
the living..of..our very lives..the most holy holy/spirit

[father for Short]

ps

SERVICE..BEFORE SERVITUde