Journalist and Christian, Greg Sheridan, referring to the Andrew Thorburn/Essendon football club injustice and probable breach of discrimination law, believes that the "grave moment" in Australian cultural history indicates that it is "almost Illegal" to be an orthodox Christian.

Dan Andrews gets a serve for his branding of Christian beliefs as 'hatred' and 'bigotry'. Pope Francis is a hater and a bigot then, according to Andrews, who claims that he is a Catholic who sends his children to a Catholic school.

Then there is the Essendon president, Dave Barham, admitting that it is "against the law" to enquire about a job applicant's religious affiliations, but, "as soon as we saw them, we acted".

We are told Thorburn resigned of his own free will, but it seems that Essendon "acted" in the matter.

Thorburn probably doesn't need the money, but he stands to make a motza out of Essendon if he chooses to in court.

Another to get a serve was the leader of the 'opposition', who pronounced that "that pastor's" words (not Thorburn's) were "abhorrent". Christian values and teaching are abhorrent to Dutton. Dutton says very little for a man in his position about anything, so we don’t know what he thinks about similar comments from imams, rabbis or Hindu priests along the same lines.

Whether or not the hostility towards Christianity in Australia continues to increase without pause, as the the hysterical love-in surrounding homosexuality, abortion 'rights' transgenderism, and the other isms continues to increase - also without pause - remains to be seen. But Christians need to prepare for the worst.

Christians should prepare for the worst because their religion is the most persecuted in the world. Overseas, Christians are tortured and killed. In Australia, intolerance is increasing, and who knows what will happen next in a country shedding Christianity hand over fist.

Non-Christians don't have to believe that homosexuals will go to Hell: if they don’t believe in Christianity, they don't beIieve in Hell either, so there is nothing to worry about. Homosexuals themselves don't believe it or they would change their ways. As a non-Bible Christian, I don’t believe it either.

What I do believe in is freedom of speech and thought, unlike the anti-Christian bigots who expect Christians to stop speaking and thinking about two thousand years of Christianity, the basis of entire Western culture, just because it’s 'old fashioned'; 'times have changed', and other tripe. And, of course, the cowards know that Christians will not react violently like others they won't say boo about.

In the meantime, the young Muslim lady who would not play in a 'pride' jersey is doing the same thing a second time. Good on her. Lucky for her that she is not a Christian.

How Long before Christianity is illegal?

A conversation of religious freedoms is an
important conversation to have however it is not one
that should be hijacked by inflammatory rhetoric.

Lets make things quite clear that in Australia
Christians are not persecuted. They have the freedom
to gather and worship freely. To meet in public places.
To join the army, to teach, vote, and even be Prime Minister.

Christians own and run vast institutions. They are still the
largest affiliation in the country (52% according to the 2016
census). These facts are hardly the signs of a persecuted
group.

Christianity will continue to remain legal in this country
even though the Christian community as a whole is responsible
for a huge amount of damage done in the name of religious belief.
They should be sorry - not crying persecution.

It is insulting to the men, women and children who have been hurt
by the church because of their sexuality or gender. Or by sexual abuse.

This is an important conversation for us to have. We need to
think about the kind of country we want to have in terms of
religious freedom, tolerance and genuine diversity.
But please let us leave the rhetorical hyperbole at home.

ttbn,
Non-Christians who believe in Hell, include Muslims, Jews and Hindus among others.; so it is not only Christians who believe in hell, in fact how can a follower of Christ not believe in Hell?

cont'd ...

My apologies I forgot to add the following link
which presents the full perspective:

http://theconversation.com/christians-in-australia-are-not-persecuted-and-it-is-insulting-to-argue-they-are-96351#

Is Mise

So? I mean non-Christians who have no faith; and the post is about the growing contempt for Christians and the expectation that they should renounce their beliefs - something that is not expected from any other religions.

Do you have any comments on that?

"But Christians need to prepare for the worst."

This is only a test, a rite of purification and Christians should rather prepare for the best, as in this wonderful aria by Bach,
"Christen müssen auf der Erden" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NsWscJiiNE

Translation (from http://www.vmii.org/bwv-44-sie-werden-euch-in-den-bann-tun/3-christen-muessen-auf-der-erden):

"Christians must be true disciples of Christ on earth. They wait for Him at all times, until they happily undergo martyrdom, exile, and bitter pain."

ttbn,
There are/have been plenty of non-ChrIstian religions as well as Christian off-shoots that have been asked to change their beliefs and/or practices.

Perhaps the following link may clarify some things
regarding the Thorburn case:

http://news.com.au/sport/afl/essendon-ceo-andrew-thorburn-isnt-a-victim-he-made-a-choice/news-story/176f9668bb88cf9c161add85a673e5f2

Is Mise

Yes, that's right; but not by self-hating white ants who have grown up enjoying the benefits that Christianity has provided. They attack only their own.

Thought the Dodo had gone extinct, but it seems to be alive and well and posting misinformation on OLO, as usual.

Apparently, there are 4 mortal sins:

1 being Christian,
2 being Male,
3 being white,
4 being conservative.

For example, Shorten was not charged with rape even though the evidence against him was no less than that against Mr Lehrmann who is on trial for the rape of Brittany Higgins.

BH has been caught out so often in her testimony that if she told me the time I would check it.

What an absolute beat up from a couple of the usual moronic suspects.

We now have over a third of our school age children in private religious based education settings, one of if not the highest rates in the Western world.

The school chaplaincy project installed by a far right Catholic PM still exists in most of our school both public and private.

Faith based hospitals make up a large percentage of the private sector which make up over half our hospitals in this country receiving billions of taxpayer funds.

We elected a clap happy fundamentalist Christian as PM.

And yet here we are with a conga line of 'victims' saying how persecuted Christians are in this country all the while screaming for even more rights to persecute and deny employment to others of differing sexuality.

Enough already.

SR,

So Christian churches set up top-notch schools and hospitals that cost the taxpayer less than public schools and hospitals. What monsters!!

If you'd read the thread or anything on the issue, Thorburn has never discriminated against anyone. Who's the moron now?

Speaking of Higgins, SM, the jury is made of 10 women and 2 men. We know what that's about, but the 10 might be from among the majority of women able to think for themselves, and not under the thumb of Marxist feminists, who anger those women as much as they do vilified men.

"What an absolute beat up from a couple of the usual moronic suspects", bellows SteeleRedux.

You would think such a towering intellect would recognise hyperbole (in relation to Christianity becoming illegal).

Nobody, including Greg Sheridan, said that Christians are physically persecuted in this country, as they are in some countries; but they are certainly vilified by the likes of SteeleRedux and others of his sort.

Christian schools, hospitals etc? Even haters and Christophobes appreciate education and healthcare care superior to the Marxist government rubbish. But even then, parents go crook if their little sebastians are taught that there are two sexes, and abortion and homosexuality are wrong. Bloody hypocrites.

Morrison might have been clap-happy, but he was and is no Christian; besides, Australians, no matter their views on Christianity, do not choose the Prime Minister.

As for Christians "persecuting" people with "differing sexuality", the persecution from which this discussion arose was by sporting organisations, leftist politicians, and the likes of SR objecting to Christians actually expressing opinions that were mainstream only a short while ago, and which are still held by other religions, including Islam, which SR and clones don't have the balls to criticise.

We need to look at some facts. Whether Andrew
Thornburn holds strong views on homosexuality
and abortion is irrelevant.

Essendon is a valuable
and a highly recognizable brand and it can't afford
to be tarnished by any views that are deemed offensive
by a big chunk of its fan base and the broader community.

This entire controversy could have been avoided had the
club done its homework.

Anyone who followed the Royal
Commission into financial services will remember
that under Thorburn's watch the NAB bank badly mistreated
customers charging them (some dead) $650 million in
advisory services that weren't provided.

Thorburn was specifically singled out by Commissioner
Kenneth Hayne for not appreciating the gravity of his bank's
misdeeds.

The over-charging was a failure on the moral front as well as
the financial one. It showed that Thorburn and NAB were more
focus on profits more than customer outcomes and turned a
blind-eye to the odious behaviour of some arms of the
business.

In his final year at NAB Thorburn earned $4.3 million in 2018
as he exited the bank. He also received a payment of
$1,041.449 for a half-year notice period he wasn't required
to work. Plus he received a million dollar golden handshake.

Andrew Thorburn was looking to revive his public profile.
He had the choice of staying with his church or starting
a new career at Essendon. Essendon offered him a choice.
Either Essendon or the Church not both. Thorburn chose
the church over starting a career at Essendon.

It is a choice that should be respected.

This is supposed guilt by association by another person or business. In fact, Thorburn gave funds to the Pride Games while a member of NAB.

Foxy,

Once again you are trying to muddy the waters with tons of irrelevant waffle. I am sure that Essendon did a far more thorough review of Thorburn than your 5-minute google search.

Your timeline is also wrong. Thorburn had already been appointed by Essendon with a signed contract that did not exclude him from working with the church. The issue only arose when some snowflake dredged up some posts from church members from over a decade ago long before Thorburn even joined the church.

Contractually Essendon had no right to demand that he relinquish his position at the church, and in forcing him to resign they put themselves in a very dangerous legal position. Not only have they made their names mud, but if Thorburn decides to sue, they could be in the hole for a chunk of cash.

SM,

I am surprised that a person of your status is still taking any notice of the 'irrelevant waffler' and Google-slave. You might recall that I suggested ignoring the left-wing drone some time ago. I was called a halfwit by the waffler at the time, but I haven't taken any notice of her arrogant and silly second-hand rants since. Give it a go.

shadowminister,

You whined: “Once again you are trying to muddy the waters with tons of irrelevant waffle.”

Irrelevant waffle? Don't be an idiot. Whoops, too late.

There were two matters raised about Thorburn and his suitability for lead the Essendon football club, his record at the NAB and his chairmanship of a fringe church.

The fact that you have chosen to get your knickers in a knot over the second does not make the first irrelevant at all. Rather it is a significant part of the issues both Essendon membership and the wider AFL community had with him.

The fact that the club was prepared to forgive his sins while at the helm of the NAB and give him an out, not forcing him to leave the church but just resign his chairmanship, was pretty forgiving in the end.

But he made his own choice which was completely and utterly up to him.

SteeleRedux jumps on his white steed to protect the waffler. Say anything about one of the Three Stooges, and at least one of the others jumps in to compound their nonsense. It's usually Paul the Green, who seems to have run out of puff lately.

ttbn,

Don't be jealous. Perhaps you need to ask why no
one is jumping to defend your consistent toxic waffle?
Nah. probably - very few are even reading it. I find it
entertaining. But keep
on barking - some one is sure to come forward to your
defense. And you'll be getting Kudos before you know it!
(hee, hee).

I see SR comment that Thorburn was a chairmanship of a fringe church.
Nonsense: He was a member of an Anglican Church which is no fringe, Church. SR exposes again his bigotry toward mainstream Christians.

"against main stream Christians" and other religions, plus the most significant Christian, the Pope, who might be a lefty, but he sticks to Christian teaching.

Unfortunately, the Marxists, including the Albanese government and many in the opposition are interested only in spin and politics. They see power in division, and the plebs cower before them.

Josephus,

A couple of things that should be noted.

1) The City on a Hill's website front page
does not mention the Anglican Church.

2) The City on a Hill is much more conservative than
the mainstream Anglican Church.

Many Anglican would be quite shocked to think that
the City on a Hill was part of the Anglican diocese.

3) The City on a Hill's leadership structure lists
groups of directors including Thorburn - which resembles
a board, whereas Anglican Churches have Parish Councils.

I would be very surprised if any Anglican Church leader
would speak out in the way that the members of the City
on a Hill church's do.

To call The City on a Hill a fringe church is correct.
It's views are far more extreme than those of the Anglican Church.

John Roskam of the IPA writes that, "what the AFL does today is what the government and society does tomorrow".

The country and public life has changed quickly. A decade of diversity and tolerance slogans has actually made Australia less diverse and less tolerant. Australia is becoming "less recognisable by the day", Roskam believes. Too right it has, and getting worse!

People are now expected to adhere to the "prevailing culture and political orthodoxy"; they cannot even remain neutral. They have to profess the loud mobthink.

Anyone wanting to work or play for Essendon - or any other AFL club - will have to "hold and espouse" the AFL view of abortion and marriage.

SR,

Don't be such a moron.

When the issue of the church was raised Thorburn had already been appointed as the CEO of Essendon. His involvement with the church had not been an issue when he was appointed but became one when someone read a decade-old post by a church member (not the official line of the church) long before Thorburn had anything to do with the church.

The demand that T give up his chairmanship of the church was not reasonable and very unlikely to have any legal basis.

The Essendon Club has explained that:

"We have no problems with anyone's faith."

Thorburn's Church's views on social issues and
inclusion had not been the issue for the club.
But holding the leadership position of the Church
was deemed untenable if Thorburn was to be CEO
of Essendon.

The club did not ask Thorburn to resign. The club gave
Thorburn a choice between the two roles.

Thorburn's church's views had not been an issue for the club
but that holding the leadership position of the Church was
deemed untenable if he was to be CEO of Essendon.

Thorburn chose his Church over Essendon. The choice was
entirely op to him. And he made it.

Anglican Doctrine on marriage and right to life. The Church on the Hill uphold traditional Anglican and Catholic doctrine on these matters.

http://anglicancompass.com/what-do-anglicans-believe/

The Anglican tradition emphasizes that marriage is a life-long commitment and that the couple can expect to be blessed by the gift of children. Anglicans believe that in the marriage service God joins a man and a woman in physical and spiritual union.

http://anglicancompass.com/why-are-anglicans-pro-life/

The Scriptures Teach Us to Be Pro-Life
People often say that abortion isn’t mentioned in the Bible. But the command to protect and honor Life is implicit in every word of Scripture.

First, we need to understand that the value of human life is based in our creation by God and in our redemption through Jesus. “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were bought at a price. Therefore, honor God with your body.” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). Our lives have value not because they are ours but because they are His! For this reason, we must live our lives giving glory to God and living in His statues. In this way, Scripture firmly contradicts the “my body, my choice” mantra of abortion supporters.

Foxy,

I am worried about the glib and facile manner in which you rush to judgement. There is nothing on their website that indicates that they are in any manner "extreme". Your facetious judgement is based on a couple of members from a decade ago when Juliar Gillard refused to legislate same-sex marriage.

I can pretty much guarantee that there will be members that hold more conservative views in the Anglican, the Catholic, presbyterian etc, and even more so in every Muslim Mosque.

I personally am an atheist, but am worried by the bigotry and intolerance of the left whingers on this site.

Dear Josephus,

Mate, you clomp on in here making definitive claims without checking these things yourself.

Certainly 5 of their churches are nominally licenced as Authorised Anglican Congregations and in following Christ “We seek to do this in the Anglican tradition working with and in concert with Anglican Dioceses where applicable and possible.”

As the same page states:

Those serving in governance roles at City on a Hill must:
“Demonstrate character consistent with 1 Timothy 3: 8-13.”

What does 1 Timothy 3: 8-13 say?

Males only in leadership positions I'm afraid which is why you only see male faces on the page.

This is hardly the current Anglican position is it.

So yes they are a fringe bunch of Churches that Thorburn leads.

The Pope said their is no physical place, Hell. Hell is the state after death of not being with God. Well, that's the latest interprtation. Christians change with the wind.

shadowminister,

Again - you don't seem to know the facts:
And you're making yourself look silly.

1) Former NAB Chief Executive Andrew Thornburn
did NOT declare to Essendon that the Church he chaired
held controversial views that might be a concern for the
Bombers before he was hired as their Chief Executive.

2) The City on a Hill Church that Thorburn chaired and
now continues to chair has many sermons that linked
abortion rates to the Holocaust and urges same-sex attracted
people to remain celibate during Thorburn's period as a
candidate for the Chief Executive role.

3) The Club gave Thorburn a choice between those roles.

4) Thorburn's Church's views on social issues and
inclusion had NOT been the issue for the Club. But that
holding the leadership position of the church was deemed
untenable if he was to be CEO of Essendon.

shadowminister,

The whole point regarding Thorburn is as many articles
on the web point out that he sought simultaneously to
be the public spokesperson for 2 sets of values that
are directly opposed and can't be reconciled.

Thorburn was wrong when he claimed that he couldn't
hold a leadership position in our society. Nobody was
suggesting that. He wouldn't for example be out of
place in the leadership ranks of the Liberal Party.
He could be PM or Governor General on recent precedents.

He just couldn't be CEO of a football club that
thinks being LGBTQI is something to be celebrated,
not survived. No goal. No foul.

ttbn,

Talking about irrelevant waffles?

You'll find that waffles are the only thing
that will make so many people wake up early.

Talking about Google drones?

Google now owns the "largest residential drone
delivery service in the world." It's operating
in Queensland and it's delivery thus far includes -
10,000 cups of coffee. 2,700 sushi rolls.
1,000 loaves of bread. and 1,200 "hot roasted chooks."

Talking about left-wing drones?

Nah. Many people are not for left-wing, or right-wing.
They're for the whole drone!

Talking about second-hand rants?

I think I speak for many on the forum when I say -
I'm an original. And awesome!

BTW: Anything in literature, including memory,
is second-hand!

You're welcome!

I am a total atheist, never attended a church.
My kids never attended a church, not even to get married.

However all my grand kids either attended or are attending church based schools, because we all wanted them to get a decent education, no longer possible in our lefty controlled public schools.

Dear Hasbeen,

What a load of twaddle.

Public schools are struggling because of the neolibersl cancer which has seen selfishness ingrained into our society like the kind you are so aptly displaying.

The sense of collectively contributing to educate Australian kids has gone up in smoke with the surge in private schools. Disruptive and high needs kids are foisted on an underfunded public system while billions of dollars of Federal funding goes to private schools. As the adage goes 80% of our teacher's time is spent managing 20% of the children. A third of the schools delivering problem kids into the public system has taken its toll on teacher wellbeing and student outcomes.

Finland has just 2% of its students in private schools while here it is around 35%. Yet it is one of the more socially and economically progressive counties in the world. Or in you language leftist.

So what has neoliberalism and the push for privates schools accomplished in this country? Unlike Finland with world class achievement ratings of its students our rankings continue to slide. But what it has allowed is the ability to continue to lower taxes on big business and multinationals here. It means high income earners get lower taxes too without there being much public outcry.

People like you have been sold a pup. You somehow believe that lower taxes and stripping away the funding for a robust world class public education system like Finland is somehow going to make you a little bit better off. That is what you have been told and you have lapped it up.

I could call you a traitor to our once egaltiarian Australian values but ultimately you are just a product of an ideology which has poisoned our media, made the rich richer, and greater deepening divisions in our society, all roundly applauded by your ignorant self.

Public schools are struggling because of poorly educated teachers and communist teachers' unions intent on politically brainwashing children and scaring them witless about climate change, sexual perversions and all things the Left loves.

More singing from the lefty hymn book SR!

I was a great supporter of state schools, I got a great education at a couple. My wife & I established & ran a school text book hire scheme for our local high school P&C for 15 years, that saved parents about 50% of the costs, & put $170,000 a year into the school, which cost us about 10 hours a week each.

While helping my kids with their math 3 & physics I could see a dramatic drop in the curriculum. This is I'm sure has been because the teachers hired were not up to even doing the subjects, let alone teach them. We had one Chinese lady teaching higher math that no one could understand a word she said, & an Indian lady who could not have passed a junior math exam.

We have a friend, ex teacher, running remedial math courses for university students & even TAFE tradie course students who find the very high achiever passes were not an adequate foundation for further studies. This is not because of disruptive students, but lousy teachers.

We have found much better teachers in private schools, particularly church schools. It is a considerable cost for many sending their kids to these school, that they don't undertake lightly, but they are almost forced to do it by the deteriorating standard of state schools, to get their kids an adequate education.

The ability of Australians (or any other western nation for that matter) to unite together is no longer possible.

Our nations are now far too polarised for the citizens to ever unite under any one issue ever again.

AC

You are right. Australia and our way of life has changed beyond recognition.

Since 2016, twice as many student teachers have failed compulsory tests after 5 opportunities to get them right. The maths and English tests are Year 9 school level.

Aspiring teachers in Australia cannot reach perform at Year 9 level.

Those running Christianity need to pull their fingers out if they don't want it to become irrelevant. The leaders themselves need to read the Bible occasionally for reference !
By far the biggest moral threat to Australian society are the drug abusers & shirkers of responsibility & general useless bogans encouraged by the exploiters of opportunism !

Dear Hasbeen,

Rubbish old cock.

The reason why good teachers end up in private school is not only conditions but the fact that the burden of disruptive children is foisted on the public system.

Your side of politics have systematically eroded public education. And you in your ideological hatred drummed up by Murdoch media and their ilk have you singing from the big business handbook and being prepared to throw the public system on the scrap heap.

Just look at some of the actions of your hero Campbell Newman.

"CAMPBELL Newman is being accused of launching "an attack on state schools" and setting up "a Government for the elite" by providing 75 per cent of a capital funding injection to the Independent and Catholic sectors.

A decision to hand 75 per cent of $115 million in extra capital funding to Catholic and Independent schools over the next four years has been slammed as "outrageous", "bizarre" and "unfair" by the Queensland Teachers' Union.""
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/campbell-newman-accused-of-attack-on-state-schools-with-capital-funding-boost-for-independent-and-catholic-sectors-/news-story/2d4b84b5197d3132b3518b8418d081a4

Yet you applauded him with great gusto.

“What is needed is to get Campbell Newman to take charge of the whole sector.” Hasbeen 2015

"Actually Foxy my sweet, Queenslanders are quite happy with Newman & company." Hasbeen 2014

"If Newman is a prototype for federal that will be a massive improvement." Hasbeen 2013

So don't sit there and tell me you were a great supporter of the public system while at the same time lauding one of the conga line of LNP economic rationalists who were determine to fatally weaken the sector. In their dream world 80% all our children would be in private education with just the 'great unwashed' having to be educated in government schools.

That is your vision too.

Traitorous is too kind a word.

Foxy,

You have it wrong. The sermon to which you were referring was in 2013 well before Thorburn took up the chairmanship.

Secondly, expecting any candidate to give a complete chronicle of any organisation to which they belong is unheard of, and an utterly idiotic suggestion of yours. If he were the chairman of the hell's angels, it would be different.

At that point, Thornburn was the Chairman of Essendon. He was stood down because of his association with the church and a decade-old sermon.

As I said, any IR barrister would be salivating at the case.

SR,

Once again you have cocked it up.

1 Timothy 3: 8-13 (a text from 1611 king James bible) refers to the expected conduct and deportment of senior figures in the church which centuries ago only men were appointed to. Only a woke fwit would deliberately misread this as claiming that this applies only to men in the modern day.

More modern bibles have revised this so as not to upset snowflakes.

shadowminister,

Thorburn was not stood down. He was given a choice.
He made his choice.

"More modern bibles have revised this so as not to upset snowflakes."

So is it really God's word, or is it just Man's word?
- Regurgitated half-truths edited by man to suit the sensibilities of said modern snowflakes?

Christians don't have a monopoly on righteousness anyway, they're just as much sinners as the non-Christians.
- The difference is that more than others they should know this, but instead they usually just become arrogant-holier-than-thou-sinners.

And in the bigger scheme of things, the fact that they know this probably makes them arguably worse people than the non-Christians.

The Census shows that Australians are becoming less
religious. It shows a shift away from religion by
citizens who were traditionally Christian.

There are increases in religions like Hinduism which
we're told has grown more than 55% in Australia since
2016 as our communities diversify.

The Christian church has found itself out of step
with changing social attitudes towards social values
on issues like divorce, abortion and same-sex marriage.

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

When it comes to Catholic views about homosexuality
in general, a global survey conducted in 2019 paints
a mixed picture. The survey covered 34 countries.
In the Americas the majority of Catholics said society
should be accepting of homosexuality.

This was the case in Canada, where nine in 10 Catholics
(87%) took this view. This was the case in Argentina (80%),
in the US (76%), Mexico (72%) and Brazil (71%), Spain (91%),
Australia (81%), Philippines (80%), and South Africa (62%).

In Eastern Europe the responses were weaker. Hungary, the
Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Lithuania said homosexuality
should be accepted. However in Lithuania 27% of Catholics
did not respond.

The position of the Pope appears not as straight forward as
it once was. When asked about gay priests the Pope replied:

"If they accept the Lord and have goodwill, who am I to
judge them?"

Foxy says, "The Christian church has found itself out of step
with changing social attitudes towards social values
on issues like divorce, abortion and same-sex marriage".

Christianity is not based on current social behaviours, It, is based in the principles of a wholesome society and the original meaning of the text of the Scriptures. Fact is God does not change his mind on human behaviour. God loves the sinner but desires to save a sinner from the error of their ways. Christians are taught to love a sinner unconditionally and reconcile them to God. God hates divorce, the murder of innocent life, and same sex marriage. Such a society has destructive values, those values are held by people who oppose God.

Christian is NOT supposed the be in step with society. Society would be in a better shape it were to get back in step with Christianity.

I guess it is impossible for political animals such as SR, Paul & to some extent Foxy to understand that many of us don't have "side of politics" as SR puts it. We simply follow the talent rather than the hymn book.

The reason the good teachers are leaving state schools at least in Queensland is because of the failed system. One friend of ours, a biology teacher was pushed into teaching junior math. He was told by the head one November he would be teaching senior math the next year.

He told the head he couldn't even do it, let alone teach it. He was told by the head he was sure he could muddle through. He quit.

When we were doing the text book scheme, just over half the head of department were too damn lazy to get off their fattening butts to give us the information of what different/new text books their subject would require in the new year in time to allow us to order them in to be ready for the start of the year.

After a couple of years of this, & complaints that books weren't available when required, we took to sending emails to these lazy bums, & keeping on file just how often & how late in the year we were still chasing the required information. We became as unpopular with the lazy ones when the head took them to task, as we were popular with the enthusiastic ones.

We had a long association with that school, longer than any teaching staff, & saw them warts & all. Only half of them were worth employing.

"The reason the good teachers are leaving state schools at least in Queensland is because of the failed system."

- Many were forced out for refusing the jibby-jabby.

Dear Foxy,

You wrote me on the twin thread to this ("The compelling need for a Federal Religious Discrimination Act") that:
«I have nothing more to say on the subject.»

This is fine by me, but apart from the subject, you told me earlier that:
«I don't understand your logic.»,
thus I asked you what part exactly it is that you did not understand, so this is a reminder that you still did not inform me.

I posted this here because I did not want to waste my precious daily quota of posts on the other thread on such procedural matters.

Life is best lived with reason.

Religion should never be illegal.
However, it might well, of necessity, be superseded.

Almost everyone has a personal 'life-philosophy'.
An understanding of what he is, and where he is.
We call this a belief system?

Religious persons have a philosophy based on an adult 'fairy-story'.
They are listeners, and don't need to think about much except the story itself.
This leads some of them to act blindly.
And the things they do can be extremely harmful to others.

A very few persons will wander through life in a kind of blissful ignorance.
This is an approach which works well for animals too. ^_^
I am quite sure animals don't follow an organised religion.
Have you ever seen them arriving, in orderly fashion, at the hollow tree in the dell, for a sunday 'service'.
Do they even have calendars?

Sensible people base their ideas about life on truthful concepts.
Theirs is a thinking approach.
They try, constantly, to understand all the pieces of life, and juggle these in to a logical pattern.
They observe and question, and never 'panel-beat' facts to fit a story.
This orderly approach is both logical and rewarding.
Understanding brings with it the ability to accept happenings which are less than favourable.

Ipso Fatso, well that was a lot of waffle, and you do not understand what real Christian faith is about. Primarily it is about living in community and accepting the character expressed by God. It is not a fairy story as you claim, it has been the basis of human character and law for thousands of years, something which you do not seem to understand.

"A very few persons will wander through life in a kind of blissful ignorance", says Ipso Fatso. He is one of them.

Hi Yuyutsu,

I have answered your question on the twin thread.
But here it is again for you:

I stated that I didn't understand your logic because you said that:

"The club is prejudiced, intolerant, and has no spine."
"And this is a good reason for the club's supporters and
spectators to forsake the club in droves."

To me that makes no sense when the club is welcoming and
inclusive and does not link abortion rates to the Holocaust
or consider LGBTQI people an abomination.

Hi IF,

Christians in Australia are not persecuted.
They have the freedom to gather and worship
freely, to meet in public places, join the
army, teach, vote, and be PM.

They own and run vast institutions. They are
still the largest affiliation in the country
according to the 2016 census. These are hardly
the signs of a persecuted group.

It is an important conversation to be had - but
it becomes difficult when it gets bogged down
in rhetorical hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric.

As a whole the Christian community is responsible
for a huge amount of damage done in the name of
religious belief. It is insulting to be crying
persecution to the thousands around the world
who face actual daily persecution because of
their religion or ethnicity. It is hurtful to the
men, women, and children who have been demonized
by the church because of their sexuality or gender.

And yet the history is that cultural or government
shifts or outright attempts at extermination of
religion have not always succeeded. Consider
China, Russia, N. Korea, Albania, Yugoslavia and
their underground churches that have and are
flourishing in those areas.

It's a shame that we humans can't learn to live
peacefully side by side and live and let live.

Hi Foxy,
I think everybody has the right (and even an obligation to themselves) to stand up for what they believe in and their best interests.
The second we all stop doing that, someone else will try to walk all over us.

Whilst some of your criticisms hold merit, that in itself doesn't necessary mean churchgoers of today are responsible for what the church has done in the past.

The west seems to have this 'One size fits all' attitude to controlling everything on the planet, and not everybody agrees.

"If you don't do it our way, then we are going to do everything possible to demonise you"
Where's the tolerance now?

There is no real unity, there is no real equality, there is no real tolerance.
- And there never will be, so why all the fuss?

If you are going and oppose the churches views, then why do you even bother going there?

It's pathetic.
It's like complaining about whats on tv, but not giving any consideration to the fact that 'You can watch something else if you want'.

It seems as though the world is saying to the churches 'You must change'.
It's kind of weak in a way.
Try telling other religions they must change.
Try telling Muslims that they must embrace homosexuality in their mosques.
What response do you think you will get?

Market forces dictate that if these religions aren't giving the people good bang for their buck, they will become irrelevant anyway.

Me personally, I don't think... if fact I'm sure,
- That no religions have all the answers.
If any one of them did, the world wouldn't be like this.

Hi AC,

We have seen Australia change from being an almost
Christian country to one where just 44% practice
Christianity. This shows a shift away from
religion by citizens. The church has found itself
out of step with changing social attitudes towards
social values on issues like divorce, abortion,
same sex marriage and so on.

Confusing persecution with marginalisation or
disagreement is insulting to the thousands around the
world who face actual daily persecution because of their
religion or ethnicity. It is insulting to the men,
women, and children who have been hurt by the church because
of their sexuality or gender.

Religion has much to say - sorry for - instead of
screaming persecution. As stated earlier - Christian in
Australia are not persecuted. They have the freedom to
gather and worship freely, to meet in public places,
join the army, teach, vote, and be PM. They own and run vast
institutions. These are hardly the signs of a persecuted
group. Yet they do preach division and disunity from
the pulpit. And this is why people are leaving.

"The church has found itself
out of step with changing social attitudes towards
social values on issues like divorce, abortion,
same sex marriage and so on."

Yeah, so what?
That's for them to deal with.

Confusing persecution with marginalisation or
disagreement is insulting to the thousands around the
world who face actual daily persecution because of their
religion or ethnicity.

Are you saying that because other religious people are crapped on worse than these people that they have no right to complain or defend their own interests?

Hmmm... seems like a flimsy argument.

Its like saying that women who get bashed by their partners shouldn't complain because other women get murdered by their partners.
Maybe the women getting bashed should just shut-up and be grateful?

"It is insulting to the men,
women, and children who have been hurt by the church because
of their sexuality or gender."

makes no sense.

Your gay, you know your gay and you know the church isn't fond of it.
That's been their way for thousands of years, but suddenly some gay people say 'your hurting us'.

"This isn't the Mardi Gras, it's a church you idiots."

Do you think that gay people don't dislike christians just as much as christians dislike gays?

If you respect that people have a right to religion, then you have to also accept their religious views and beliefs which are inseparable.

Otherwise you have to ban all religions, and bulldoze all places of worship.

You can't have freedom of religion but then try to impose and dictate to all religions what their beliefs should be, it just doesn't work.

[Cont.]
And if you are going to ban religions and discriminate against them, then why stop there?
Why not ban gay places as well, to be fair.

http://www.squirt.org/au/new-south-wales/sydney/cruising/bathhouse-sauna/sydney-city-steam
This is a clean, modern facility, with an electric sexual vibe. Facilities include a spa, a steam room, a sauna, two cinema spaces, various fantasy rooms, and a fully licensed bar with free Internet, where you will find boys picking up other boys online. Ironic, we know! if you are looking for buff, beefy gym types, you will find them here too, especially during the busy lunch periods. Two douche rooms (one is $6 with kit provided, the other is free (BYO kit)), two slings (one public, one private), Fourth floor: Licensed bar (open on busy days), internet lounge, cinema, "chill out" room, TV lounge, reading lounge. Third Floor: Maze, glory holes, dark room, two slings (one private one public), cubicles, mirror room. Second floor: Suckatorium (8 booths), porn lounge, douche rooms, disabled toilet, maze and more cubicles. First floor: showers, sauna, steam room, hot tub, lockers and entrance. Street level - stairwell or lift access.

- Head on down to the suckatorium and the douching room where you belong?
'wtf are you even doing at church?'
The church frowns even on lust and many Christians think sex is only for the purpose of procreation.

Seems to me gays just want to cause shite.
If your interested in religion, go get a bible.
No-one says gays can't read it, it's their choice.
The Christians aren't forcing gays at the barrel of a gun.
- Both sides should be more tolerant of the others views.

Wheres your tolerance now?

There's no law that says Christians must respect gay peoples views, any more than there is a law which states that gays must respect Christian's views.

People are individuals and have their own opinions, feelings, and preferences.

Hi AC,

It's good that you respect people as individuals with
rights. I assume that includes not only religious
people but everybody? Otherwise your arguments would
be very one-sided.

Australia has to decide what kind of community it wants
to be in terms of religious tolerance, freedom, and
genuine diversity.

Sports were developed to create friendly conflict between localities and were non-religious and included people of all religions. The emphasis on social ostracization of people of religion has diminished the universal nature of sport. This happened to Israel Folau, Manly Club and now Essendon, and in women's sport with the inclusion of transgender males. Accepting social norms is a Marxist agenda to destroy family and people of faith.

Foxy says, "To me that makes no sense when the club is welcoming and
inclusive and does not link abortion rates to the Holocaust
or consider LGBTQI people an abomination."

What nonsense! The Club excludes a person who attends a Church that mentioned the comparison. In fact, more children have lost their lives through surgical abortion [murder], than persons in the Holocaust. Yet very few are speaking out against this butchering of the innocent.

Hey Foxy,
Look the bottom line is this, 'human beings will never agree'.
There's 8 billion people on the planet, and I don't think you will find 2 people that completely agree with each other on every single topic.
That's the reality of the world we live in.

- And disagreement is actually the foundation of our democratic nations.

Gays / Christians, I've really got no dog in this fight.
- I'm not gay and I'm not religious.

But no-one can control what others think or do.
We need to at least accept the reality of the world we live in.

Gays don't control how Christians think and act,
And Christians don't control how gays think and act.
- But we all share the same planet.

Can we expect Australian sporting Christophobes to boycott the 2022 FIFA World Cup in Qatar next month? Plenty of religious 'bigotry' for them to get their teeth into:

No alcohol; no homosexuality; no immodesty; no profanity; no loud music, and no dating. No exceptions.

Or is it just Christian values and teachings that bothers them.

We are a secular nation with a Constitution that
upholds the separation of church and state.

This doesn't mean that you can't join any radical
cult that you fancy and still be a foot club CEO
or member of parliament. But it does mean that where
your views are out of step with the views of the
club, organisation, or society you inhabit, that club
, organisation, or state can choose to either dispense
with your services or give you a choice.

Thanks ttbn for this thread.

CM

Good to find you are still around.

foxy, SPORTING CLUBS DO NOT TEACH RELIGIOUS VALUES, to exclude persons because of their personal social or religious views from their employment when it does not impinge on their employment is discrimination. To discriminate for employment in sport on a person's religion, or sexual preference is the sign of a Totalitarian State.

A Christian society does not enforce any individual to believe or discriminate against a person's beliefs, the only discrimination is if employed in teaching and living the values they teach.

The freedoms we have enjoyed under a Christian society are being eroded by people who lord it over other's beliefs and enforce a totalitarian society.

Hi Josephus,

I guess we can only speak from our own experiences.
I have heard hatred preached from the pulpit. I have
heard religious people expressing hate speech towards
those whose views disagree with theirs. I have seen
teachers lose their jobs, and the lists go on.
Religion has a lot to answer. And saying it does not happen
is simply wrong. Instead of screaming persecution - they
should be saying - sorry.

BTW: I was raised a Catholic - however due to my experiences
I am not a practising one. I cannot support a church that
does not practice what Jesus taught.

Josephus

The AFL, sporting organisations in general, have no business preaching anything. Their expertise is sport, not religion or politics.

I have no interest in sport, but I do know many sports fans who are cheesed off with virtue-signalling sporting bodies to the point that they are cancelling their memberships of clubs. The slogan 'go woke go broke' might not apply to just businesses, but to sports organisations too.

And in the NSW Upper House the Green termites want the Lord’s Prayer omitted from the opening proceedings but not, of course, the Aboriginal invocation.

Apologies to termites which are useful little fellows.

Sporting organisations have every right to be welcoming
and inclusive to all of their fan base, members, spectators,
and to stand up for their values. The same as anyone else.

In our secular society, parliaments should reflect secularism, therefore there is no place for religious devotion within parliamentary chamber. There was a "Prayer Room" provided for the conservative side of politics in the Federal Parliament, where they freely fornicated with male and female prostitutes, while others prayed over them waiting their turn. What more do you want Issy? A shooting gallery and dirt track in parliament complete with wild elephants and 4WD's for 'Elephant' Bob and 'Meany' Bob from Shooters and Hooters to shoot and hoon around in, and generally go wild. Enough is enough!

Foxy, I would not take much notice of your definition of "hatred", because under your definition it makes you a hypocrite to claim the Church disapproves of some behaviours. Though you may be talking about the Roman Catholic Church of which in many cases is not Christian in fact, but in fact an ancient Roman State Church.

Josephus,

I have no control over what you believe. I know
what I witnessed. And it dealt with more than
just one church both here in Australia and
in Los Angeles. Very narrow minded people during
those times. Unfortunately they affected so many
and not in good ways.

Herr Goebbels,

Losing your firearms and license really got to you.

Foxy,

How about giving an example of this hate speech within Catholicism that you talk about.

The Anglican Church in Australia is in trouble, and I suspect they are not the only denomination suffering viability stress, brought on by ageing and diminishing congregations in the majority of parishes, adding to their lack of relevance in the wider community. The new break away fundo conservative Anglicans with their anti gay marriage stance are threatening the viability of Anglicanism itself in Australia. It won't be a case of outlawing Christianity, but a case of Christianity destroying itself, with splits over outdated and farcical claptrap only hastening its demise.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/18/first-diocese-of-australias-breakaway-anglican-church-officially-launched

A couple of practical comments:
Faith is believing something is true, purely because someone you 'trust' tells you it is true.
If that person has first-hand knowledge of the thing he is describing, then accepting its veracity might be ok.
But when the person making the statement cannot possibly have any personal knowledge of the subject, then he could be making it up as he goes along.
It becomes incumbent upon you to be politely critical, and not to be led around by your nose.
In some cases, you might be curious enough to seek guidance from alternate sources.

Also, with respect, I remind you that expressing an opinion is not an invitation to a prolonged debate.
When contributors have access to many separately offered opinions, they are able to reach some form of mutual consensus.
They learn from each other.
But in any case, trading 'trash-talk' is not productive.
Even if it does allow a person to 'let off steam', and, just for a moment, give him a brief and erroneous feeling of being 'in control'.

"I remind you that expressing an opinion is not an invitation to a prolonged debate", says Ipso Fatso.

There is no debate here; but you cannot express an opinion and expect silence. Nor is there ever any "consensus" on OLO. The same few people have been banging on with the same opinions for years. It is a way for people with no power to have a say anonymously. Nobody changes his or her mind. There is no 'debate', just disagreement and criticism, sometimes nasty and arrogant; most of it pointless, unchanging.

We all have our reasons for being here, and lectures on what should be or not be, particularly from a Johnny Come Lately, are not appreciated.

Hi IF,

I've been part of this forum for decades. And people
still surprise me at times. What I like are the variety
of views expressed. What I don't like are the personal
attacks that often come through and don't achieve
anything productive. But that's to be expected on a
public forum such as this one. It's not true that people
don't change their minds at times. They have and do.
And whether we like to admit it - often opinions can make
you do more research and see things from a different
perspective.

Banjo Paterson, David F., and many others have that effect on me.

O Sung Wu, who's views are often different to mine is so
civil and decent - he's made me think many times. Even
shadowminister has surprised me as has mhaze - who often makes
me research further.

Paul makes me laugh out loud at times. And Armchair Critic's
research takes me into an entire different world.

One thing's for sure. It is never boring. Each and every
poster - has something to say - and each makes the forum an
interesting place in which to post. I can honestly say that I
do look forward to reading the posts - even though I will
yell at the computer screen at times (joke).

Of course Steele is in a class by himself. And Maverick is a
welcome addition. And so are you IF! Your light shines
brightly - as does that of Yuyutsu. And Is Mise - certainly keeps
us all on our toes. Indyvidual is a challenge and Josephus means
well. I'm sure that I've left many out - but everyone on this
forum has something to offer. That's why so many of us are
still here and we keep coming back.

There are clear cases where people have been persecuted for their beliefs. Folau for one, the Bishop in Tasmania, and now Thorburn even though he has done nothing wrong.

Foxy's answer is that because this level of persecution is much lower than the Christians in other areas that this makes it OK.

shadowminister,

Please don't put words into my mouth.

I think each case has to be looked at in its context.
And that goes for the actions of religious organizations
as well. As someone stated - One Size does not fit all.
And there are after all different circumstances involved
in each case.

Foxy,
Waiting for a response.

Issy,

While you wait for Foxy's response, maybe you can post that LIST of GREENS you claimed are Liars.

MY LIST of Shooters and Hooters who have an IQ which is TLA!

FAT BOB
TWO BOB
ELEPHANT BOB
MEANY BOB
BOB A JOB
and
BOB THE BLOB!

Me thinks you are all those above mentioned BOB's.... but incognito!

AND! they all tell lies as well!

Your Forum Friend
Paul Horatio Gobbles....get it right.

Herr Goebbles,
Which one of your guns do you miss the most? Welcome

In the last couple of days I've seen a carton showing people queuing at a food truck waiting to be served, with two lions standing a short way off. One lion says to the other, "I hear Christians are back on the menu".

That reminds me of another joke.

A Christian guy named Bill saw an add online for a
Christian horse for sale. He answered the add and
thought he'd check it out. It was a lovely horse
and according to the owner very easy to ride.

The owner told Bill get on the horse and when you
want him to move just say the words - "Praise the
Lord!" and he'll go forward. When you want him to stop
just say - "Amen!" and he'll stop.

Bill got on the horse - and said - "Praise the Lord,"
and sure enough the horse began to move. Bill kept
saying "Praise the Lord," and the horse got into a
trot. Bill suddenly noticed the edge of a cliff
coming up as the horse galloped towards it. Bill
yelled at the top of his lungs - "AMEN!" and
the horse stopped just in time.

"Praise the Lord!" Bill exclaimed.

Is Mise,

You surprised me by asking me to give give you
an example of hate speech within Catholicism.
I would have thought that you being a Catholic
would not need any explanation. You would have
experienced it for yourself.

Most of us Catholics - growing up in Australia have
experienced the hard-line, anachronistic views
given in sermons by uneducated priests on
homosexuality, abortion, contraception, euthanasia,
same sex marriage, and even on non-believers - who
would go to hell. Rhetoric such as "intrinsic moral evils,"
"fags," "oddballs," "mentally disordered," "murderers,"
were quite common.

Using rhetoric such as this - the law may regard as
vilification today. Attacks on certain groups from the
pulpit were common.

As I grew older and my experiences through education and
travel - were broadened I questioned the church's
hostility toward LGBTQI identity. I could not understand
this attitude against gays when many priests are gay.

The church is losing many followers because of its attacks.
People's faith in God remains strong but their belief in
the institutional churches has been severely shaken
especially since the sexual abuse scandals have been exposed.

The churches have forfeited their right for people's support
until they clean up their own backyards. Churches are facing
a crisis of trust. Yet governments continue to exempt them
from almost all rates and taxes, and tip billions of dollars
annually into their vast network of schools, hospitals, health,
employment, and welfare agencies.

Fairfax media tells us that in Victoria - the wealth of the
Catholic church amounts to over $9 billion. Australia wide its
more than $30 billion. Rivalling the Westfield organization.

Secular Australia is now openly hostile to its Christian roots. I wonder what they intend to replace it with.

Christianity is the fundamental base of our society, and why that society has prevailed.

Even atheist Douglas Murray has written;

"We are all Christians whether we like it or not. Where the hell do people think human rights came from? These are things that exist on the embers of Christian thought".

Is Mise,

We know of people where religion was beaten into them with
a leather strap or in my case - a cane in school. Where you
had to recite the Catechism exactly as written and were not
allowed to question anything. Many of these people today -
no longer trust the church they grew up in. And who can blame
them?

Paul,

You forgot Brown eye Bob of the gangreens.

Foxy,
I have attended Mass over 3,000 times, in many countries and in four different languages that I understood very well and never once did I hear hatred preached.
You frequently bring up the subject but never give any instances.
So I must conclude, that for your own purposes you are guilding the lily.

Is Mise,

Perhaps now you just may understand (although I doubt it)
why it took me so long to respond to you.

{Secular Australia is now openly hostile to its Christian roots. I wonder what they intend to replace it with.}

It is not so much replacing as returning.
Returning to truth which predates any religion.
The natural world got along very well before man evolved?

Religion developed as a way to control the masses.
It is a kind of catalyst.
Those who devised it were clever, and meant well.
Nowadays, they don't mind that it pays well too.

It helps in life to understand what you are.
It helps also to understand what it means to live in a democracy.
It helps to compare our lot with those who live under a religious dictatorship.
Anyone want a one-way ticket to any of those 'hot-spots'?

Foxy
Still waiting for a meaningful response, i.e. time and place etc.

I suspect though that your anti-Catholic rants are nothing but fantasy.

Is Mise,

I replied to you in good faith of what I had experienced
growing up. Whether you believe me or not is not my
problem. I know what I experienced. And as does my husband
who was raised by the Christian Brothers here in Melbourne.
Seeing as you're not really interested in what we have
to share - any further discussions with you would be
pointless. And no - it's not because we don't have anything
further to share - it's because sharing it with you would
be a waste of our time. You can go and wank off with someone else
for your amusement.

Foxy,
Obviously you can’t substantiate your claims, so revel in your lying fantasising.

Is Mise,

I can't help it if you don't like my honesty.

You need to sit down in a big bath tub of water
because your pants are on fire.

Before you call yourself a Christian, Muslim,
Buddhist, Hindu, or anything else. Learn to be
a human first.

Foxy.
If you don’t like being called a liar then don’t call others liars.

Is Mise,

I don't call others liars.

You do.

Foxy,
Cast your mind back to when I posted on “Weary” Dunlop keeping his pistols right through his captivity by the Japanese, you said that I was lying, you followed, subserviently, the equally scurrilous post of the forum’s premier liar.Herr Goebbels.

This was despite the fact that I’d given references to his being armed with the pistols early in his captivity.
You not only called me a liar you besmirched the memory of s very brave Australian.

Hi Issy,

You have never offered a scintilla of evidence that I have lied about anything. Yes like you, I may be guilty of exaggerating the truth at times, but never lying! Besides, why are you dragging me into your little stoush with Foxy? I never said Mr Dunlop didn't carry a couple of car tyres around with him during the war!

BTW, get it right that's Mr Paul Horatio Gobbles not Paul Joseph Goebbles, different bloke. Joe Goebbles was your first cousin, you used to write his speeches and put on his bets, you said so yourself!

Herr Goebbels,
Now you are lying about your lying.
You still haven’t told us which of your guns you miss the most.

Is Mise,

Sir Weary Dunlop was a very close friend and someone
who meant a great deal to our family and the Lithuanian
Community. You have crossed the line here. I shall not
argue with you on this subject.

As for this particular discussion? You asked me to give an
example of hate speech within Catholicism. I replied to
the best of my abilities what I had experienced growing up
in this country as a child. You called me a liar because
my experiences did not agree with yours.

I do not lie. I simply said what I had experienced. The
hard-line, anachronistic views that were espoused on
homosexuality, and other subjects. That were part and
parcel of the church during those times. These views were
well known and experienced here in Australia. Films were
even made on the subjects - "The Devil's Playground," comes
to mind. And plays were also seen here in Melbourne on
the "Christian Brothers," performed by theatre companies.

Anyway, I'm done inter-acting with you.

Think whatever you like of me - frankly you can stick your views
where the sun doesn't shine. I've now added you to the list of -
"to be ignored morons."

By not acting on a religious freedom bill before the election, the Morrison government gave Labor a leg up. The Thorburn case has seen religious leaders (yesterday) pushing the Albanese government to do something in the way of protection for religious beliefs which are legal in our society. Labor has many 'religious seats' to think about.

Foxy so you don’t deny calling me a liar and that your statement that you never called anyone a liar is erroneous.
So you now claim to have been a friend of “Weary” Dunlop, probably another invention.
You never ever gave xample of hate speach from the pulpit as you claimed, was that another lie?

Trash talk can be entertaining, but it clouds any real discussion.
Overall, the conversation is beginning to sound like a lot of children squabbling.
Please be the adults you are, and pay more attention to the subject matter?
Get yourself in the right mood for the fast approaching xmas season?
Demonstrate a bit of understanding and goodwill?
I know you can.

In this case, I agree with Ipso Fatso:

"Oveerall, the conversation is beginning to sound like a lot of children squabbling."

There are some posters - 3 or 4 - who use any thread at all to get attention and display their psychological problems and their lack of ability to know when to 'let it go'. Most of their drivel has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject.

ttbn,
True, but OLO has no general discussion forum unlike more modern sites, so we must post where we can.
Foxy’s ducking and weaving has lit up more than one thread.

When asked to explain in their own words the main reasons
for leaving Catholicism many former Catholics cite a
disagreement with the Catholic church's behaviour on
so many religious and moral issues.

Many have found the Church full of self-importance,
arrogance, lack of empathy, excessive moralizing, and
a tendency to confuse it's own narrow-image of God - which
is the reasons young Catholics find the Church irrelevant to
their lives.

Even Pope Francis has spoken about the "sourpuss" syndrome -
being acidic, combative, legalistic, pompous, and biting.
Resulting in driving hope out of people instead of putting joy
into them.

Many critics have said that what is needed is an antidote
to a rigid and narrow understanding of what it means to be
Catholic. They point out that what is needed is a church
capable pf love and compassion instead of being domineering
and authoritarian. A church with a mandate to love everything
and everyone. Unfortunately this is not the way many in
its heirarchy see things - hence the decline in its numbers.
And this will continue unless the church makes changes.
The sexual abuse scandals also don't help.

We have Archbishop Julian Porteous and the Australian Bishops
Conference being investigated during the same-sex marriage
debate on their publication of the booklet - "Don't mess
with marriage,"which was distributed to about 12,000 Tasmanian
families whose children attend Catholic schools. The booklet
states that same sex partners fo not deserve recognition,
that same-sex attracted people are not "whole," and the
children of same sex partners are not "healthy."

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

Prof. Bonnie Thurston wrote the following poem:

"Unable to see verdant forests
for mangled ecclesial trees
Most of my companions
Have abandoned the church
Not rats, but certainly escapees
From a rusty old ship
With a treasure in her hold
Undiminished by its often ugly
Always precarious commanders
To the sailors who remain
Not confident, but at least
Hopeful she isn't going down
Who still stoke old boilers
And swab slimy decks
St Benedict offers counsel
Be prudent in your cleaning
In scraping off the rust
Don't break the fragile vessel
Appreciating mature beauty
Long faithful seaworthiness
Old sailors, like astrolabes
Still chart direction by the stars
Their night watches taught them
The sun will rise from the sea
They show their shipmates how
To be held in a crumbling conveyance
By the foundling love in her hold."

"My biggest regrets in life -
being too damn nice. Apologizing
when I didn't do anything wrong
and lastly making unworthy people
part of my day." That's a good quote!

My faith in God remains strong but my
belief in the institutional Church
has been severely shaken - as it has for
so many Catholics.

However, I still hope that under the right
leadership things can change for the better.

Foxy
Just an example of hate preached, as you claimed.

Is Mise

I'm not sure that I follow.

What do you call "general discussion"? You can discuss anything you want on OLO by starting a thread. I am not familiar with "more modern sites". How are those sites better for arguing with idiots who remain pigheaded idiots unable to answer your quite reasonable questions? And, why don't you switch to one of these sites where anything goes.

At the moment, I am questioning whether it is worth starting a thread here if a couple of posts are a response to the subject, then the rest gradually decline into disagreements and arguments on other matters totally irrelevant to the subject of the thread, like the one going on between two people now on stuff that most posters are not interested in.

Finally, you know what that poor woman is like, yet you keep provoking her, knowing full well how wound up she is and how unlikely she is to stop.

ttbn,
On modern sites one can start a general discussion without needing approval, if there is no interest then it dies.
More modern sites also have archives where one can access past topics without having to glance through thousands of posts..
OLO is prehistoric in this regard.

Is Mise

OLO, like the subject of this thread - Christianity - is not compulsory; you don't have to use it; you can always go to one of those ' modern' sites you don’t name.

It is reasonable for threads to be approved: it might be why we don’t get real nutters and abusive posters, just some irritating ones, and not many of those.

We can say pretty much what we like, short of foul language and abuse. As for trawling through archives, I couldn't think of anything more boring - about as much fun as two posters pointlessly arguing the toss over nothing but their own egos

ttbn,
I like Christianity and OLO, that’s why I put up with their faults
As just about every site on the Net is more modern than OLO a list would be virtually endless, no matter how fast one recorded the tail end would keep getting away.

I think we need to go back to basics.
Nothing which happens is inherently good or bad, right or wrong.
A change is just something which happens.
It can be a material change or an intellectual change.
We perceive these as 'good' or otherwise, from how they affect us.

Sometimes they are caused by naturally occurring movement, which results from temperature difference.
Sometimes they are initiated by man himself, as he strives to gain some advantage.
These happenings, or changes, usually have a mixture of desirable and less desirable effects.
This is because any change is normally part of a series of changes, which are not all the same.
As the adage says: 'tis an ill wind which blows no good'.

The effect change has will vary with the passing of time.
What seems bad today might turn our to be not so bad tomorrow.
I am reminded here of the man who lost his job at the 'trade centre', and wasn't at work when disaster struck.
That short term disadvantage no doubt saved his life.
And people who miss a 'flight', which is subsequently involved in disaster and loss of life.
Once again, a disadvantage which becomes an advantage?

The above ideas about change are basic concepts, which seem, unaccountably, to be 'religiously' ignored by some.
I suggest it might be wise to do some basic thinking.
It might bring ideas about life in to clearer focus?
It might then become possible to be more accepting and tolerant of the behaviour of others?
And that intellectual change would be an advantage to all?
At least in the short term?

Hi Issy

How's the flood situation out your way, the Namoi River is heading into flood will that affect you. Hope all are safe and well, and things turn out okay.

Sir Paul Horatio Gobbles esq.
KFC MG BMW TNT

Thought I'd give meself a few titles and letters, adds a bit of class you know.

CM, Good to find you are still around.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 15 October 2022 10:24:52 AM

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9941#339276

Sorry ttbn- been a little busy- my contributions tend to go in waves. Hope you're well.

Have we answered this question?
The short answer is never.
Because law cannot control thinking.
It does attempt to control a person's actions in public areas, and so some extent in private ones.
This is done to minimise deliberate harm or affront to citizens.
We should all be able live in a peaceful manner.

Forms of dress which denote religious attitude are disallowed in some places.
This is wise.
Dress can be colourful, original, and even flamboyant, but it should not create a particular division.
Similarly, religious ideas should not be disseminated in public places.
They can be a serious affront to many people.
Such 'advertising' should be disallowed?

Education is giving people a better understanding of life and reality.
So logic is leading people towards truth.
I note religious schooling is under scrutiny too.
People are beginning to think about the wisdom of these things.
So there is a trend away from religious ideas.
This movement might be slow, but we have taken the first positive steps.

Ipso Facto,
“Dress . . .should not create a particular division”

You’re right, we must do away with all uniforms, from school uniforms and scouts and guides to police, military, fire brigades ans ambulance and emergency services etc.

What wonderful chaos we could create at a major fire!!

I thought it was obvious I was talking about voluntarily worn outfits, not those needed for indentification.
Or used to ensure equality.
If that wasn't clear before, it certainly should be now.
Sometimes we need to read between the lines to see the true intent of the words.
QED

There were times in the past where religion reached in to many aspects of personal life.
I well remember visiting a hospital, and filling out some form of information sheet.
The young woman in charge was very insistent that I include a religious denomination.
A doctor had to come and set the matter right, or I might still be there at loggerheads with her.
And those who were born as other than strictly male or female, were ostracized, and still are, by religious attitude.
Time for religion to 'pull its head in' and stop interfering in the personal life of the wider population.
We are not their subjects.

In the past church and state was one in the same, offending against state law was severely punished, as was offending against religious dogma punished, often under the penalty of death. Today look at fundamentalist Islamic countries, Afghanistan and Iran they are two where religious law carries as much weight as secular law, see the consequences.

Dear Paul,

«offending against state law was severely punished, as was offending against religious dogma punished,»
»Afghanistan and Iran they are two where religious law carries as much weight as secular law»

Part of the problem is that people believe them - and now you seem to believe them too...

So they claim, "this dogma is religious dogma", "this law is religious dogma", etc. - they can claim anything they like, but why should you buy into that nonsense? Do you really think that their dogmas are divine wisdom or that their laws were handed down by God?

We must be clear in our intent when trying to pass information.
Religious ideas, such as , “Honour thy father and thy mother”. ‘Thou shalt not kill “
‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours goods” are religious ideas inmost religions” and obviously have no place in open society, they should be kept private.