"Of the world’s 7,000 languages, it is estimated 50% to 90% will no longer be spoken in the next 50 to 100 years. The majority under threat are languages spoken by Indigenous peoples around the world: one is lost every two weeks.

One of the world’s fastest rates of language loss is in Australia. Indigenous languages in Australia comprise only 2% of languages spoken in the world but represent 9% of the world’s critically endangered languages.

More than 250 Indigenous languages and over 750 dialects were originally spoken. However, as some experts estimate, only 40 languages are still spoken, with just 12 being learned by children.

First Nations educator Jacquie Hunter, who contributed to this article, has worked at One Arm Point Remote Community School in Ardiyooloon in Australia’s northwest for 17 years. She told us “kids know words, but not sentences” of their Bardi language. She estimates within the next few years, “we won’t have any more fluent speakers around to teach us those full sentences in our language”."

The questions are whether these languages can be saved, and is it actually worth the effort.

The history of our indigenous people is a sad one.
They were forbidden to speak their own languages
for so long. It's no wonder that they have, and
are dying. We have advanced in this country where
today many languages are spoken and the "speak
English" on buses, train, and trams, is not longer
as prevalent. Our children today learn all sorts of
languages as well as English.

Of course it is worth learning an indigenous language.
It will teach students about our shared history.
It will teach something about our original Australian
culture and worldview. It will allow and encourage
students to develop respect for diversity and for
understanding of cultural difference.

It will bridge the gap from both sides. It will also
empower Aboriginal people because students will begin to
see things from the original Australian cultural
perspective.

Definitely worth the effort.

In a country where young people are barely literate in the only official language, English, talk of keeping or reviving Stone Age languages that weren't even written down is complete BS, and just another political ploy of the lunatic left. There is no place for such nonsense. All efforts should be made to ensure that people are competent in English - including those people in remote communities who will be doomed to stay isolated because they can communicate only in some ancient, unwritten language that 97% of the population do not understand, and do not care about.

I suspect at best the indigenous Australian will end up with a version of Australian pidgin. I lived in the NT for a few years in the 60s and watched the changes taking place. I did spend some time in TPNG as well where Pidgin was the common language. Over the years I have lived in a few locations with reasonably large Indigenous populations and have observed the changes up to where we are now. What next and where the solutions lie is but a guess as nothing to date has appeared to be successful in the long term not only in language but in virtually all aspects of common ground. Time may be the only true solution and large lumps of it. We are still a young country with an evolving history and a high level of immigration which will make for changes as yet unknown. It will be a very different Australia to what we know now. SD

The only way that Aboriginal languages will survive is if native speakers pass the language on to the children and if Aboriginals who don’t have a language, learn and speak speak one.

There is no good reason why the most numerous Indigenous language shouldn’t be a school subject and learning a language, no matter which one, the intellectual benefits are the same, the practical benefits can be different, French is always going to be of more practical use than, say, Lallans or the similar Doric.

My wife is fluent in the Maori language, a speaker, a teacher and a writer of language. When she started school (a rural school with 95% Maori children) in the 1950's with little to no English, pakeha teachers tried to prevent Maori children speaking the native language, smacking was what they employed as a deterrent. Even names were changed, on her first day an English name was pinned on her, and she was told; "that is your new name from now on". Today my wife has two names, her English name, and her real Maori name.

Today things are different in NZ, all children are taught "te reo Maori" in schools. The language is doing fine, with many speakers including young people. Its great that the wife and niece can use modern technology 'FaceTime', and chat to each other in their "stone age" language.

On a purely clinical note languages survive when people use them for daily communication. When a native speaker has no one to talk to then his knowledge of the language and idioms evaporate.

In New Zealand, there has been a push to introduce all school children to the Maori language including a few months in Junior school. Recently the greens here proposed that Maori be taught as a 2nd language at all high schools. This was quickly dispelled when the numbers showed that there weren't enough people fluent in Maori to allocate one teacher per school and that by separating fluent Maori speakers from each other would only hasten its demise.

The main reason that most people chose other languages to study such as French, German, Italian, Chinese, etc is that they will get some use out of knowing the language.

The extinction of these languages may be slowed but not stopped.

Sadly we do not have the advantage of compactness in Oz with the Indigenous population spread over vast areas. Getting children to attend school is an issue in itself in more remote locations. Indigenous folk across the board must want to do this, it will never happen if it is just confined to isolated pockets, it will become of academic interest at best. I am not a doomsayer but having visited and seen so many abortive efforts to establish something that was seen to be good over many years it is hard to see how teaching a common language to such disparate groups will work any better. It may have some hope in the cities. Worth a try. Take it easy. SD

I remember how I used to complain to my parents
when they forced me to learn the Lithuanian
language. However it helped me when I went to Uni
and during my class in phonetics the lecturer asked
if anyone spoke Lithuanian? I put up my hand. It was
an educational experience for me and I learned the
importance of languages.

http://lithuaniatribune.com/facts-about-the-lithuanian-language/#

shadowminister,

Thank you for starting this topic for discussion.
It brings back so many memories.

I remember when we were forced to read the epic poem,
"Beowulf," and how at first I found it extremely difficult.
Eventually I found that reading Beowulf gave me insight into
how literature evolved from the Middle Ages.

"Beowulf helped
scholars trace the evolution of the English language as well as
study the norms and traditions of the Anglo-Saxons in the
Medieval period. It gives a glimpse of England's history and
the earliest form of literature of the people of England."

Wouldn't it be great if we also could form a better understanding
with the norms and traditions of our Indigenous people through
language.

Any language that doesn't have words for alcohol and welfare payment, is obviously going to be rejected by a certain segment of the so-called First-nations people.

And who introduced the alcohol and welfare payments to
our First Nations people.

Shame on you.

"And who introduced the alcohol and welfare payments to
our First Nations people."

Do you mean the words or the products? :)

mhaze,

I thought your said their language didn't have those words.
Again - doing your usual Houdini.

"For Indigenous people, languages not only identify
their origin and membership of a community. They also
carry the ethical values of their ancestors - the
indigenous knowledge systems that make them one with
the land and are crucial to their survival and to the
hopes and aspirations of their youth."

http://education.sa.gov.au/aboriginal-language-schools-offering-program#

Most information passed down verbally is subject to error, go through one or more generations and the error increases and instead of history we have folklore.
This also applies to the written word unless it is highly protected especially when it comes to translation. Nothing wrong with this, it is normal in the general scheme of things.
Go back a thousand years or more and any oral history is in all probability way off the original telling.
More guess and by golly than anything else.
This is not confined to any one group but is pretty much the norm.
Some politicians about the world appear to have reduced this to a matter of days.
SD

Kei te mohio ki te korero Maori? If my wife says that to me I can understand what she is saying, but can't say it myself as its not spoken the same way as in English, loose translation "Can you speak Maori"

And who introduced the alcohol and welfare payments to
our First Nations people.
Foxy,
Don't you remember the wails of discrimination from the do-gooders & indigenous when the indigenous weren't permitted in Pubs ? Don't you remember when the indigenous & ignorant do-gooders wailed to no end about not enough welfare ?
I know quite a number of indigenous who are actually in favour of dry communities but you do-gooders outnumber them yet when the wheels come off you start that same old discrimination bleating !
What is being done when a non-indigenous makes an idiot of himself when drunk ? They get locked up, no wails of discrimination there yet when an indigenous is in the same situation the silly & the stupid gang up on the Police !

On language: if you could ger all of your ancestors lined up for 1,000 years and you spoke to your parents and they to theirs etc each generation could converse with ease yet if you could go back the 1,000 years you’d have great difficulty in understanding a few words and their meaning may well have changed.
I studied early English at Uni. and it was a foreign language.

I wonder, by what marvellous process Indigenous languages have remained so pure?

Old English as spoken by the Anglo-Saxons sounds like Modern English spoken by a drunken Scotsman.

Languages & dialects must be kept going but we also need one World language that keeps evolving with new times & technology.
English has become the World language & it will include more & more words from other languages as time goes on !
The less obstacles to communication the better societies will turn out !

Indyvidual,
If you could magically create a one world language tomorrow and get rid of the rest, twenty years later there’d be a dozen new languages.
My grandsons already speak a variation of English that I sometimes find hard to follow.

Foxy,

Have you learnt an indigenous language?

On the South Island in New Zealand, we have quite a few Māori working with us and very few of them are fluent in Māori.

Of the non-Māori kiwis, most of them know a few words and phrases but could not string a full sentence together.

I don't see Maori surviving this century.

SM,

Not sure who these Māori people of the South Island of Aotearoa you are referring to, a new mysterious race with a strange language, and an even stranger alphabet, I assume they are only known to you. Maybe your painful GOUT is still causing you grief, as you recommended to yourself, cut down on the sauce!

"I don't see Maori surviving this century."

My wife laughed at that one, she tells me her people, her language, and her culture has never been stronger amongst both young and old since the Pakeha first invaded about 220 years ago. In the Bay Of Islands, where she is from, and the Maori population is the largest per capita, larger than in the Waikato, her iwi Nagapuhi accounts for about 140,000 in a World population of over 1,000,000 Maori, both language and culture remain vibrant. The over 700 marae which are the centres for Maori culture and physical practice of traditions are well patronised and in constant use, unlike Christian churches which are closing at an alarming rate due to lack of viability.

SM, check out the new muti-million dollar marae being built in Sydney Australia by Maori people, with their own money. It includes a cultural centre for Maori, and all their indigenous and other brothers and sisters of the world to freely use and enjoy.

How do you celebrate your culture? Macca's and a box on your own on a Saturday night, I suspect.

I've come across an interesting article which I've
given below that is worth a read. The jist of it
seems to be that by teaching the young, and investing
in resources, in teachers, in schools running their
own programs - the preservation of languages is possible.

There's more at the following:

http://mz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/406971/te-reo-maori-language

Here's the link again:

http://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/406971/te-reo-maori-language-at-threat-of-extinction-academics#

Morning Foxy.
No matter what we put in place to conserve language it will always find its own way. If it remains static it will die or cease to be in general use except in some exceptional circumstances maybe. It is the better for this as if it was not so we would still be grunting, howling and making unusual sounds to make ourselves understood. Though a club could be of some assistance to get ones point of view across. Shaggy Dog.

Hi SD,

Yes, we've certainly come a long way and as we've seen
languages have changed and adapted over time. Their
study links us to the past and how people lived and
is well worth doing. Here's a short history of the
old stone age:

http://shorthistory.org/prehistory/language-and-spiritual-culture-in-old-stone-age/

Knowledge of a minority language can be helpful in odd ways.
My eldest son came back to Australia from Ireland where he’d lived from the age of ten.
He was about 22 and first up sought a job.
He applied to a construction firm and when the boss heard his accent he spoke to him in Irish, son replied in the language and he got the job, he says it was probably because the boss could practice his Irish.
The boss was German and had studied Irish Gaelic at Uni in Germany.

Paul,

I see your dementia is still bothering you.

I was talking about Language, not culture which is a difference that most children could see.

The statistics which were discussed on TVNZ ch1 (the equivalent of the ABC here who were talking about preserving the Maori language) are that 15% of the population (750 000) consider themselves of Maori descent about 5% (250 000) can hold a very basic conversation and about 1% (50 000) converse fluently and regularly most of whom are middle-aged to elderly.

Sensible people would trust NZ government statistics over the wishful thinking of a senile old woman.

George II, at the age of 60, was the last British sovereign to fight alongside his soldiers, at the Battle of Dettingen in 1743 in Germany, against the French. George III was a "farmer" couldn't understand why the Americans wanted to leave the empire.

Apparently Maori use is growing in New Zealand however
the journey of a bilingual society has a long way to go.
But at least the people are trying.

http://theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/12/as-maori-use-grows-in-new-zealand-the-challenge-is-to-match-deeds-to-wrods

Again another typo.

Here's the link again:

http://theguardian.com/world/sep/12/as-maori-use-grows-in-new-zealand-the-challenge-is-to-match-deeds-to-words

Foxy,
An interesting read.
Changes in language over such a long period would be expected but the advent of modern communication is really ringing the changes with some of these changes sweeping across the world virtually overnight.
My own turn of phrase is a tad anachronistic having spent too much of my life in out of the way places where conversation was often the only form of entertainment.
I still enjoy listening to a good yarn, truthful or not. I have been known to tell a yarn or two myself where the truth was treated with quite some disdain. Take it easy. SD

Dear SD,

I firmly believe that the present is linked to the past.
That people need to be proud of their ancestry and to
support their communities. Which I've done both personally, professionally , by championing their causes, and
financially where I can.

I grew up in Sydney but I've got roots in the country as well.
Stories are in my DNA and the importance of culture.

Onya Foxy.
I have had some writing published and am currently working on a collection of short stories mostly collected in my wanderings both in Oz and overseas. Keeps me off the streets and out of trouble. Take it easy. SD

Hi Foxy,

I would rather take notice of a 73 year old (today) woman who is in tune with her culture and people, than a gout ridden alcoholic, something in a lucid moment he admitted to on the forum. Unfortunately the bloke also has an unhealthy obsession with perverts and paedophiles, constantly mentioning such deviant behaviour in his postings.

Foxy.
My kids grew up with indigenous friends. These kids stayed over, came away with us, no big deal. They were just kids. We obviously knew their parents. All have made their way as adults as far as I know.
I am no dreamer as I have seen the down side as well as I have worked and lived in locations where there are or have been real social problems which at this time are far from being solved. I have no answers as folk far cleverer than me do not appear to be having a great deal of success.
I did way back have some federal funding to spend on training TPNG indigenous people when I lived there. Interesting time to say the least.
Take it easy. SD

Dear SD,

I've met all sorts of people both through work and travel.
I take people as I find them. I've been spat on in a black
neighbourhood in Los Angeles but I've also had help from
a black police officer when I was having car problems there. So
It takes all kinds, I guess. I have been lucky in my life
thus far. I'm still a work in progress and I've still got
much to learn. This forum has taught me a great deal.

Foxy,
Yes , pretty much the same as you, taking folk as I find them. I would not have survived without the help of folk of far different ethnicity to myself.
Take it easy. SD

twenty years later there’d be a dozen new languages.
is Mise,
What do you expect from our "educated" who have to invent new words for the same old meaning simply to justify their being there ! Saturation educated but still too stupid to see the damage they cause for down the line !
Ever since this parasitic integrity-devoid elite has wormed its way into the political circles the progress of decency has been deliberately reversed by them !
Hard to say why they're doing this, I can only put it down to stupidity & greed !
is it any wonder the good ones are leaving in troves ?

The sooner people recognise and value the fact that these languages are part of the heritage of our country and worth preserving, even pushed to flourish where possible, the better.

I knew a Greek chap many years ago who attended a local Greek School as a child where he was taught the language.

When he eventually travelled to Greece on holiday he was surprised to find the locals "talked like savages" and not in the refined styled he was taught.

As for incorporating indigenous culture, I often admire New Zealanders for incorporating various cultural crossovers. Here all we have done is use aboriginal words to name real estate, just as the USA has done with their native heritage.

I forgot to include this trivia about local dialects.
"Talk like a pirate day" has just passed but the well-known pirate accent is in fact how English is spoken in the English West Country.

The actor who was to play Long John Silver in the first movie realised the character was in fact originally a farmer from that region so he simply spoke in that way.

Hi rache and Steele,

My wife when taking to another Maori can instantly recognise who has learnt the language from childhood, and who has learnt it through school. Also many speak with an Englishfied version where some words are made to sound more English than Maori. For example the word for the colour pink is "mawhero", but some will say "pinko", The wife says the only "pinko" in the Maori language is ME, there are many other examples. You are right Steele, language is heritage. As I pointed out earlier, when my wife first started school, in a Maori school, it was a school offence to speak the native language or even to have a indigenous name. Reminds me of the novel 'Roots"..."WHAT IS YOUR NAME"...." KUNTA KINTA...."NO ITS NOT, ITS TOBY", except her teachers didn't use a whip, they smacked the legs of a frightened 5 year old with their hand or ruler. And we think other races are savages.

My wife was shocked when visiting Hawaii, and speaking to a couple of the locals (very hard to find) at the total lack of real culture, the flowered shirts and hula dancers are not the real culture. One soon discovers it was the loss of land by the Hawaiians that led to a total reliance on the white man and the destruction of local language and culture.

Good morning all.
I feel it is too late to try and introduce any of the indigenous languages as an alternative useable language.
Our large migrant intake to date and in the future will dictate the course of language more so than any other factor.
I can recall in my younger years wandering about Oz when it was none too hard to pick where or what state someone came from. Not so these days.
Oz as she is spoken today is a work in progress and has little chance of being forced into a language desired by a few be that to the good or to the detriment of our history.
Some would call that progress others would disagree.
I think the former will win the day.
Take it easy.
SD

I see a lot of vague waffle about the "value" of indigenous languages, mostly from people who have never bothered to learn a second language, let alone an indigenous one.

The base value of any language is to be able to communicate and transact with others. If the vast majority of people that one meets have no understanding of this language and there is little to no literature in the language, the value of the language to the speaker is almost zero and the only motivation for keeping the language on life support is guilt.

SM,

I'm sure you learned German so you could understand the Fuhrer's rantings and ravings. Lets cut to the chase, your real motive for this topic is not to see the loss of indigenous language, but the decline and ultimate disappearance of indigenous people.

If Paul1405 is anything to go by, the sooner some language jargon disappears the better for mankind !
Imagine a language that doesn't have the word Racist ! Paul would have nothing left but count to the next hand-change all day long !

Indy,

As long as a yarpie such as you, continues to post on this Forum, I have unlimited opportunities to refer to RACISTS.

From the one you call; "A Concrete Jungle Bunny".

Pauliar,

You are the biggest Nazi here, however, I couldn't accuse you of learning a second language as you are too stupid to even grasp English.

I remember getting my first job as a uni student during
the summer holidays at David Jones in Sydney. And hearing
comments like "Doesn't she speak beautifully."
My promotion was very quick in that department store. From
making milkshakes in their cafeteria, I was moved to
the designer clothing floor and luxury items. I was also
offered a permanent job.

And all that came as a result of my English mistress at
high school who insisted that we enunciate every single
word and not take short-cuts in our language.

I owe her a great deal to this day. The funny thing is
when I speak in Lithuanian to visitors from Lithuania,
their dialects vary - and some of them I can't understand
a word they say. Especially those from the "Lowlands."
Still I am grateful, that I know more than one language.

Learning other languages and cultures - if one is able to do
is a gift that should be valued. It certainly has made a
big difference in my life. And it is something I would wish
for our children and grandchildren. It's a way of broadening
one's horizons and perceptions.

Hi Paul,

How do you say hello in maori?

Is it Kia ora?

Hi Foxy,

"kia ora" is a Maori general greeting like "bulla" in Fijian, or "hello" in English.

If I see you in the morning I should say; "ata marie" good morning,
in the afternoon "kia pai to ahiahia" at night "kia pai to po" and when we part say; "ka kite" see you, or add "ano" for see you again.

Thank you Paul.

I'll now try to practice.

We're thinking of a trip to NZ next year.

Hi Foxy,

We will be in NZ from next Tuesday for a couple of weeks. Our first trip since 2019. Covid put restrictions on travel, Catch up with whanau (extended family), wife has two sisters and one brother up north, so a catch up with them is absolutely necessary, as is visiting several urupa (cemetery) to pay respects to those passed. The rest is a holiday in the form of a country music festival at the isolated community of Opononi, only about 600 people, yes the wife has relos living there as well, then a wedding down south in Hamilton. Any luck, we'll get out to the Waipoua Forest and visit the god Tane Mahuta, who dwells within a 2,000 year old giant kauri tree, about 30 minutes walk into the forest. Nothing like meeting a real life living god. Although the wife is a practising Christian, she always says a little prayer to Tangaroa for safe travel, and to Ranginui (Sky Father) for protection whilst away, before the aeroplane takes off. She says it all helps, I don't know.

Dear Paul,

My gran was a Russian Orthodox Christian. Yet
whenever there was a violent storm and it thundered.
She'd walk around the house sprinkling holy water
in each room. She also believed it helped.

"Rarity is the precursor to extinction."
Darwin

People from minority languages usually want their children to learn the metropolitan language, or English, rather than be painted into a corner by only knowing their traditional language, or learning it at the sacrifice of more valuable skills.

Such languages can only be kept alive by government funding of what is ultimately a vain exercise - Canute-like thrashing at the waves.

With someone else's money of course. Take that out of the equation, and the value of the attempt somehow magically disappears.

Even where the state does fund attempts to keep moribund languages alive - such as in Ireland, Wales, and Bali - they die anyway.

It takes time, effort, commitment and desire to learn any language. Why would anyone want to learn the language of a minority that they're not going to be able to use in life?

Extinction and speciation are part of evolution, and two sides of the same coin. While we are witnessing old languages die out, we are also witnessing the cross-fertilisation, hybridisation, and creation of new languages from existing ones, especially English.

Darwin, btw, met a parrot in South America that was the last living being that spoke a word of a language extinct of human speech.

A policy for the palliative care of a moribund language should be called Darwin's Parrot.

Paulnazi,

I assume that you are going to visit your ex-neighbour and chum Brendon Tarrant that you miss so much?

But you're making assumptions without all
the facts, and that's not a sign of intelligence.
Poor thing - you're obviously missing Paul.
Need someone to talk to?

Dear Cumberland,

You write:

"Such languages can only be kept alive by government funding of what is ultimately a vain exercise - Canute-like thrashing at the waves.

With someone else's money of course. Take that out of the equation, and the value of the attempt somehow magically disappears."

Sure, and I'm sure you will join with me in calling for any private or otherwise school which receives any government funding to cease teaching Latin immediately.

foxy,

Why on earth would I want the village idiot?

SteeleRedux

Yes you're right, government funding of education cannot be justified and should be completely abolished and for that matter, the production of ideology generally.

Dear Cuberland,

Rather inane way of avoiding the question. How about an answer.

SteeleRedux

I don't accept your premises. Why should I? You yourself are arguing that they don't make sense.

I'm not opposed in principle to these languages being saved.
- But what sort of expense are we talking about to save them?

How much did Perrotet want to charge taxpayers just for putting the indigenous flag up on the Sydney Harbour Bridge?
- wasn't that 25 million if I recall?

I'm not supporting a government funded black-hole or bottomless pit.

Before we embark on a 'Do I support this YES or NO question'
- How about you lay out the fine print BEFORE you seek the consensus,
Instead of attempting to gain a consensus first for a plan that has yet to be laid out.

You see if they gain the consensus first, they get a free pass for a blank cheque after they've already gained the consensus.
- That's a bureaucratic screw-job.

So what now?
- simply label anyone who has questions or concerns as racist people who's opinions don't matter, push the issue on the general public on an emotional level about indigenous rights in a way that no-one can easily disagree without being accused of racism, add a few screams of racism and burning Aussie flags at the tent embassy...
- then work through the finer details in regards to snouts in the trough business (like pirates dividing up each mans share of the treasure) once you've already gotten the thumbs up.

Smells like BS.
It's more like a carefully organised grift than an actual plan at this stage.

Show me what I'm signing up to in the fine print first before you seek my support / whilst also emotionally blackmailing me with the woke moral outrage.

What the plan, and how much does it cost to get the result you want?

Finally is it even practical to do so, it's one thing to state 'save' these languages, like you assume that people will keep using them over other languages.
I support the languages being documented as much as is possible, but I'm not sure they can actually be 'saved'.

http://phys.org/news/2022-07-brink-indigenous-languages-australiacould-schools.html

Dear Cumerland,

Rubbish.

You raised a specific point which I replied to with an admittedly partially rhetorical question but one that was quite open to you to reply to. Instead you have obfuscated with a general remark about public monies going to education, one that is utterly dystopia of course, but used in this instance to avoid the point.

Let's try this then. Do you think the classical languages are worth saving or not?

>Do you think the classical languages are worth saving or not?

I'm in favour of anyone saving whatever languages they want, provided its to their own cost and benefit.

I study Latin on my own coin because there are many benefits to learning Latin that do not justify me expending the same costs on learning Gaelic or Balinese or Pitjanjajara, or Aranda, or Gamilroi.

You are avoiding the point with your dystopian rubbish. You're trying to obfuscate - (Wheee! This leftist argumentation style is easy!) - I say you are trying to obfuscate the issue which is whether indigenous or classical languages are worth saving, NOT whether it should be funded by government.

It is not for me to just obediently swallow your smuggled-in premise. You need to give reasons for it, not just personal abuse.

If you're saying that governments should not be funding the teaching of Latin by private schools, you're saying governments are not competent to decide whether it's worth saving at that cost.

If you're saying that governments should be funding it, you're begging the question, in your reasonless presumption that other people should be forced to fund your mere opinion.

And you're studying Pitjanjajara are you?

"I'm in favour of anyone saving whatever languages they want, provided its to their own cost and benefit."

I'm willing to allow the government to throw a little bit of money at it, as it has to do with the culture and history of our nation, which should be documented or preserved if it can be.

But I'm not going to give support to a plan that has yet to be formulated, and a subsequent blank cheque to bureaucrats etc. afterwards.

Fine print.
1 How will you 'save' these languages, what outcome precisely do you hope to achieve?
2. What is the plan for achieving this outcome, is it a fair and reasonable plan?
3. What is the estimated cost of implementing this plan, and achieving the intended outcome/s?

Come back to me when you have this info, alternatively, if you don't want to provide the info, then don't bother coming to me or expecting any kind of decision until I have the requested details.

Hi AC,

Australia has just done $2 billion as our part in dispatching Queenie. As for $25 mill for a flag, that's small beer for government, they'd spend that on drinkies at Parliament House on a Friday afternoon.

shadowminister,

You're right.

Of course none of us have to worry about a village
idiot when you're here.

Language is essential to the experience of culture
as a means of communicating values and beliefs and
customs. Language has an important function and
fosters feelings of group identity and solidarity.
This is so for people everywhere.

As languages disappear, cultures die. The world becomes
a less interesting place. But more importantly, we also
sacrifice raw knowledge and the intellectual achievements
of millennia.

It is our loss.

It is a matter of practical need.
Do we need dozens of languages in the world?
No! Best to have just one?
But we are stuck with many.
Which keeps interpreters busy.
But only the main language used by a whole country should be 'saved'?
The less languages we have, the better?
It makes communication so much easier.

I was waiting for some idiot to compare the aboriginal languages to Latin and SR did not disappoint.

Latin is not studied to speak, but rather enables one to read the texts from 1000s of years of civilization that built much of the foundation on which we live today wrt to language, law, etc. None of which local indigenous languages can provide.

I'm not fluent in any Indigenous language so I
can't really make judgements about them.
I know that Papa was raised by the Jesuits and
he knew Latin very well.

I looked up some of the dead languages and I saw
Latin, Coptic, Biblical Hebrew, Sanskrit, Akkadian
and Sumerian listed.

Language death wipes out not just languages
but generations of unique history and culture.
Do we really want to see long lists giving us
hundreds of dead languages?

Hopefully - most of us would prefer to see the
re-vitalization of languages.

Foxy,

I agree I put the village idiot in his place, but then you are always there to back him up. What's the female for idiot?

On the other hand, new languages are forming around us all the time.

Unlike Latin which has been remarkably stable over the centuries, English has changed quickly as comparison of the same text over the last six centuries will show. Chaucer was only about 160 years before Shakespeare. And look at the change since then - even in our own times.

When I was a kid in the 60s, I lived in Papua. 'Pigeon English' or Tok Pijin as it is known now, originated in communications between Europeans and natives. Shorn of grammatical inflections it was simple but liable to ambiguity and confusion. Since then it has become the market language between natives speaking different local languages, and a national language of government. Three generations have grown up speaking Pijin as their mother tongue. These have given it a range of grammatical inflections lacking in the original pijin. This shows the process of rapid language evolution.

Also in our time, languages across the world have adopted many words from English. The French even had a government body trying to stop this process, and promulgate new words to replace Franglish expressions like "le weekend" and "le parking". But it was all in vain.

Policies to either stop language development or resuscitate moribund languages show a fundamental misunderstanding, or misrepresentation, of what language is and where it comes from.

Notice that the only people willing to contend that dying indigenous languages are "worth saving" are those with either a vested interest, or those who don't intend to actually learn them themselves, indifferent to the cost they expect to shuck off onto others.

Typical of the gubbas to come up with this kinda shite.

Cumberland,
I lived in Rabaul and Moresby for a time in the 60s. My previous locations had been Alice Springs and Darwin. A bit of a change. Interesting times.
Take it easy.
SD

An aside on Latin, which is dead but won’t lay down.

Many years ago, the late Prof. Ian Jack, of Sydney Uni, went to a Latinist conference in Paris.
There were Latinists from all over the world and they quickly found that although they could all speak very good Latin few of them could hold a conversation, all their accents and pronunciations were different.
Those who knew Church Latin did better, but that was not much help, so the conference was held in French.
They were however able to pass notes to each other in fluent Latin.

Talking about language experiences?

I remember a few decades back - my husband was waiting to be
seen by a doctor in a public hospital and this elderly nurse
came up to him with her notebook, glanced at his surname and
slowly asked - "Do you need an interpreter?" To which my
husband replied in his Oxford English - "Why doesn't the
doctor speak English?"

Have times changed?

Not sure. Papa could speak several languages. The most
illogical one he found to be was English.

I was told that I'd never finish high school because I was
bi-lingual. I ended up being not only in the top of the
school - but finished uni as well. And my languages
were an asset not a hinderance. Go figure.

I also found that languages made a big difference when
travelling to other countries. But of course we can only
speak from our own experiences - broad or limited as they
may be.

Foxy,
Indeed having more than one language can be very helpful, politeness turns to friendliness when one speaks to people in their own language.
I have found this particularly so in France and India ; in the Gaelic speaking areas of Ireland one enters a whole new world.
Some surprises can come up too; I was in the Museum in what was then Bombay, when I heard some women behind me speaking fluent French, I turned around and to my surprise they were all Indians and wearing saris.
We got talking and they came from the former French colony of Pondicherry, French was their second language

Is Mise,

Learning a new language can have some hilarious
aspects to it. I remember a friend of mum's
lending me her copy of "They're a Weird Mob,"
John O'Grady wrote under the name - Nino Culotta.

I read it on the train on my way to work in Sydney
and couldn't stop laughing.

It struck home because my own family members used
to occasionally get their English words mixed up.
Mum once asked in a department store for a skirt
for her husband. She meant a shirt.

Then my aunt left a note for her delivery man to
" put the package on your backside." She meant
around the back of the house - on the back verandah
because she wasn't going to be home that day. She didn't
want the package to be left on the front porch.

Well the package was not delivered. She had to trace it.
The delivery man took the note the wrong way.

Foxy,
In the same vein, a friend, recently arrived from Germany was passing the green grocers when she glanced in the window and saw something that puzzled her, so in she went and asked why the red berries in the window were labelled ‘black’, that’s because they’re green was the reply.

One of her favourite funnies was ‘ that’s expensive venison, darling’ —- ‘that’s dear deer, dear’.

Is Mise,

I'm glad I know sign language.
It's pretty handy.

Foxy,

Cultures blossom and then die all the time whether the language continues or not. English culture today bears no resemblance to that experienced by Chaucer. Roman culture was particularly brutal and bears no resemblance to Italian culture today. The same goes for Greek, Persian etc. At best the literature gives a snapshot of culture at the time and Latin, Sanskrit etc texts are like fossils of a cultural past pointing to evolution as do prehistoric fossils of animals from a bygone epoch

And your point is?

There are about 500 different Aboriginal peoples in
Australia each with their own language and territory
and usually made up of a large number of separate clans.
The study of their history and survival is interesting.

Foxy,

Interesting for whom?

shadowminister,

Thank you for asking - "Interesting for whom?"

There's curators, educators, teachers, students,
researchers, archaeologists, historians, and
anyone interested in Indigenous cultural knowledge.

There's a wealth of information to be found in
libraries and museums that can be accessed.
Museums hold collections of scientific specimens
and cultural objects that may amaze you.

You're welcome.

Foxy,

I'm glad that you acknowledge that cultures evolve over time. This demolishes your earlier claim that aboriginal culture has persisted unchanged for over 60 000 years.

Secondly, while language is useful in maintaining cultural roots it is not essential and preserving culture while it is evolving is an oxymoron.

Finally, the number of people that take a serious interest in the anthropology of the many different tribes is really a handful of people. Take you for example, how many of the 500 aboriginal languages have you ever attempted to learn?

If the aboriginal languages are to continue to exist it needs to be driven by the aboriginals themselves.

Good to see Bunnings ads in Maori language with English subs on the general TV in Auckland. Maori TV channel very popular here, good programs.

Didn't realise how cold NZ is until arriving yesterday 17 tops and windy. 4hr drive today up north, lots of Maori speakers up there.

Paul,

Did you pop in to see your mate, Brendon Tarrant?

shadowminister,

The following link may clarify things for you:

http://amnesty.org.au/eight-facts-about-indigenous-people-in-australia/

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are the proud
keepers of arguably the oldest continuous culture on the
planet. This heritage spans many different communities, each
with its own unique mixture of cultures, customs and languages.

Before the European invasion in 1788 there were more that 250
Indigenous nations, each with several clans. Things changed
drastically for our Indigenous peoples with the invasion
of the Europeans. The link gives a brief summary. And as I keep
stating - a visit to libraries and or museums will educate
you further on this subject.

Foxy,

What invasion? No one stormed the beaches and shot at anyone.

I thought you knew English?

shadowminister,

You seem to have a lot of questions about the history
of this country. Hence my suggestion that you actually
do a bit of research to become better informed.

You were probably taught that the Empire was marvellous.
And of course you don't like facing the truth of our
colonial past and that's part of the problem. You don't want to
be re-educated about the British long history of exploitation and cruelty.

You've probably always thought of England as the best country
in the world. Well it wasn't/isn't. It was cruel and greedu
and unjust. Much like the rest of the world and the aftermath
of Empire has given rise to the hateful legacy of racism.

I'll be happy to discuss things further with you when and if, you
get better informed. Until any further discussion is pointless.

Just like writing with a broken pen is pointless (smile).

Having great time at Waiotemarama, what a great place. Maori culture all aroind us. Rain but all good, seen 1 kiwi in the wild.³

Hi Paul,

Glad to hear from you.

It must be wonderful to get away from things for a while
and escape to a different universe. Make the most of your time.

Foxy,

The mouth breather that wrote the article said: "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are the proud keepers of arguably the oldest continuous culture on the planet. Our heritage spans many different communities, each with its own unique mixture of cultures, customs and languages."

Any moron can spot the contradiction. Either there is one continuous culture or the many cultures and languages of the 250 odd tribes etc.

One can either study the real history of Australia or the politically sanitised version being spread by woke snowflakes which bear no relation to the truth.

Hi Foxy,

Had a great time in NZ, (1300 Km in 2 weeks) from the time in the wilds of 'Opononi' up North, to time spent in the Waikato District around Rotorua, and attending a Maori wedding down there. A catch up with whanau (extended family), to doing some trekking about, and a little drinking in the cosy pub, where several of our fabulous nieces work, that was a time and a half, don't know how many jugs the publican put on for the "family from Australia", too many me thinks. Of course there was the obligatory visits to several urupa's (cemeteries) in the hills to pay respects to whanau passed on, family and ancestors are very important to Maori people including my wife.

Its always an opportunity for me to experience the real culture of Maori people, good and bad, not the sanitised tourist version one gets in places like Roto, the men doing the haka, and the girls dancing with their poi's. One of the positives was to see my 73 year old wife (Nanna) having a korero (talk) in fluent Maori to our 5 year old identical twin girls (moko's), actually our grand nieces girls.

Hi Paul,

So good to read something positive for a change on
this forum. I saw a tee-shirt recently that had on it:

"That's what I do
I Read Books
Learn Languages and Cultures
And I Know Things!"

Following local government elections in Aotearoa, Maori candidates had resounding victories in several locations. Not the least one of our young brigade, Moko Tepania, was elected as the first Maori Mayor of the predominantly Maori district of the Far North Council. At 31 Moko will lead, also for the first time, a predominantly Maori council.

The Village Nazi with his wishful thinking should look no further than across the ditch to see indigenous folk leading the way in self determination and now in the field of community leadership of Maori and Pakeha alike. I would have thought that on his pilgrimage to the site of the mass killings of Brenton Tarrant the lad would have picked up on that shift, seems not.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/moko-tepania-makes-history-as-far-norths-new-mayor/USCE7WXADC5MKQ4MWEJV7L2RAA/

Paulnazi,

So you went to worship your mate, Brenton Tarrant. The term village Nazi suits you well.

Nah SM,

You know who is the Village Nazi, the extreme far right Forum Fascists with a belief that all indigenous people and others of colour have no rights. You said yourself you went to Christchurch to visit the holy grail where the deeds of Brenton Tarrant were carried out. Do you now claim otherwise, or was it one of your lies?

PaulNazi,

You were Brenton's neighbour and advisor on how good communists kill ethnic minorities.