Most of us take pride in our tolerance and acceptance.
But is it justified?

Listening to people who've experienced prejudice shows
that perhaps - we have a long way to go in our society
in terms of tolerance. Suppressing certain opinions because
we're not comfortable with them through attempted slurs,
labelling, and shaming, is degrading.

People hold different values for a variety of reasons.
On this discussion forum and in our society in general,
people hail from a myriad of backgrounds, ethnicities,
and family structures. As a result they also usually
think differently. We should not make the assumption
that we all grew up in the same bubble.

We should be celebrating diversity of thought in the same
way we can celebrate all other forms of diversity.

Sharing unique experiences and offering varying viewpoints
can only strengthen a community more.

Who would want only one homogeneous school, university,
or discussion forum where nobody questions and everyone
accepts one ideology?

Apparently some do and we have a long way to go in terms of
tolerance in our society.

Surely through accepting and debating from an equal standing
we can do much better and learn even more than we already do.
We can - Progressives and Conservatives alike stand to
benefit.

Discuss.

Dear Foxy,

«we have a long way to go in our society
in terms of tolerance.»

There will always be more tolerant and less tolerant people around because being tolerant or otherwise is not a societal thing, but a feature of one's personal/spiritual journey.

We all start off as extremely tolerant because we are naive and apathetic. As we develop a strong independent "identity" we then turn to be intolerant to that which opposes it, then finally as we expand and realise that all is God, that there is nothing but God, thus nothing happens against His will, we become tolerant again.

Tolerance! That's rich, coming from a person who nags anyone who holds views different from hers, and keeps nagging as long as they keep posting. When she runs out of waffle, she deems anyone who stands up to her to be 'toxic' 'little', and only worthy of being ignored. She thinks everything that is said is directed at her, even when it isn't, and she thinks that the rest of us are quivering in anticipation of her latest pronouncements. Intolerant, and intolerable.

Hi Foxy,
I think it depends on the context.
- There's pro's and con's to everything.

What if I started a thread to match yours equally based on 'intolerance'?
We could easily compile a huge list of things that we refuse to tolerate.

And tolerance isn't the only virtue, we've all got google at our fingertips.
- All I have to do is type in virtues, and I get a whole list:

Acceptance Assertiveness Authenticity Beauty Caring Cleanliness
Commitment Compassion Confidence Consideration Contentment
Cooperation Courage Creativity Detachment Determination Dignity
Encouragement Enthusiasm Ethical Excellence Fairness Faith
Flexibility Forgiveness Friendliness Generosity Gentleness
Graciousness Gratitude Harmonious Helpfulness Honesty Honor
Hope Humility Idealism Integrity Imaginative Joyfulness Justice
Kindness Love Loyalty Moderation Modesty Optimistic Orderliness
Passionate Patience Peace Perseverance Preparedness Purposefulness
Reliability Respect Responsibility Reverence Self-discipline
Service Sincerity Tact Temperate Tenacious Thankfulness Tolerance
Trust Truthfulness Understanding Unity Visionary Wisdom Wonder

And just as I gave an example of 'intolerance' being the opposite of 'tolerance'
- Maybe we should look at virtues AND what seems to be the opposite of them.

- Virtue Signalling -

'The action or practice of publicly expressing opinions or sentiments intended to demonstrate one's good character or the moral correctness of one's position on a particular issue.'
"It's noticeable how often virtue signalling consists of saying you hate things."

It seems to me that people these days are just as much opposed to virtues or good values
- As they are for them.

Everyone seems to compete in a battle for moral superiority,
- and at the same time - no-one likes being told.

"Sharing unique experiences and offering varying viewpoints
can only strengthen a community more."

Yes I agree. Whenever I hear someone tell us that the Nazis were right to target the Jews, I marvel at how that "varying viewpoint" as to the past, has "strengthened" our community.

"Who would want only one homogeneous school, university,
or discussion forum where nobody questions and everyone
accepts one ideology?"

I think there's a false binary there. Its not one or the other. It is possible to be intolerant of SOME 'diversity' without opposing all diverse views.

It is up to each one of us to decide what we will or will not tolerate; not anyone else - particularly a person who, just a short while ago, demonstrated her own intolerance.

If we all stuck to opining on a subject presented, and not on the opinions of those we disagree with, things would much more pleasant.

The UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon's message for
International Day to be observed on 16th November 2018
stated:

" We are living through a global transition. New centres
of power and economic dynamism are emerging. Technology is
connecting us ever more closely, and cross-cultural exchanges
are deepening every day - but this does not mean there is
more understanding. Societies are more diverse but intolerance
is on the rise in too many places."

"Across the globe, nations and communities face profound and
enduring economic, social and environmental challenges.
Poverty, hunger, and disease remain at unacceptable levels.
Natural disasters are a constant reminder of human vulnerability.
Conflict and inter-community tensions persist across the globe.
Millions face the daily threat of violence and displacement."

" There are no individual solutions to these multi-faceted
and inter-related challenges. We can only advance as a
community of nations and cultures drawing on human solidarity
and recognizing that we share a common destiny. That is why
tolerance is so important."

Tolerance of course can and must be learned. We as individuals
need to teach our children how to behave. Of course tolerance
has its limits and it can't tolerate what is itself
actively intolerant. Most of us can't get so tolerant that
we tolerate intolerance.

But we can nurture tolerance by promoting cultural understanding
and respect (from Parliament to the playground).

We can tackle growing inequality and reject social exclusion
based on gender, disabilities, sexual orientation, and
cultural and ethnic or religious background.

And as the Secretary-General tells us:

"Tolerance is the strongest foundation for peace
and reconciliation."

"Anger, hatred, and intolerance is like a fisherman's hook.
It is very important for us to ensure that we are not caught by it."
(Dalai Lama).

You can be tolerant of another's beliefs, practices,
and habits, without necessarily sharing or accepting
them. Of course providing they aren't breaking the
law or doing harm to others.

"I have learned silence from the talkative,
tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from
the unkind."
(Kahlil Gibran).

I hate to tell you this Foxy,
- But it's all just feel-good crap.

"We can only advance as a community of nations and cultures drawing on human solidarity and recognizing that we share a common destiny."

- People don't share a common destiny, it's a fantasy.

Do you think people like Zelensky and Putin share the same common destiny as the ones they wish to fight and die for what it is that Zelensky and Putin believe and want?

Of course not, it's a fantasy.
People that say that crap are not in touch with reality.
Things are never equal, and never will be, no matter how much others try to make it so.

What about kids from broken or toxic homes with bad selfish parents,
- as opposed to people who come from non-broken homes and good supportive family.

It's like drawing straws, just being born.
How do you make things equal?

What about people who are born with physical disabilities and illness as opposed to those born without physical disabilities or illness?

What about people that are simply born good looking as opposed to people that are just born ugly?

Things can never be equal, no matter how much you hope or wish or try to make it so.
Equality sounds good, but it really is just a fantasy.
Like Harry Potter, or Bewitched or I dream of Jeannie.
And until such time as all these feel-good do-gooders accept this very simple reality;
- All you're doing is entertaining a fantasy world that NO-ONE actually lives in;

A FANTASY WORLD THAT NEVER WAS, AND NEVER WILL BE.

Everyone is different.

The best of us will still have some poor qualities within them.
And the worst of us probably somewhere have some good qualities.

Just watch, when it happens it will be
Ggglllooowwwbbbaaalll Waaaarrrmmmiiinnnggg !

Hi Armchair Critic,

When life seems hard, the courageous don't just
give up or lie down and accept defeat; instead,
they are all the more determined to struggle for
a better future.

Dear Critic,

«People don't share a common destiny, it's a fantasy.»

They do share, only each might hope for something else.

Some people sit at the adults table making the choices
Whilst the rest of us sit at the kiddies table living with those choices

Intolerance is good.

When I was a child, growing up in suburban Sydney we could always tell where the members of the Loyal Orange Lodge and their supporters lived.
We’d be selling raffle tickets and wearing our Marist School uniforms and they’d greet us with “ Git outa here ya dirty little Taig” (derogatory term for Catholic).

Builds character.

Opinions are like gods.

There are many around and some are very interesting but in the end you only believe in yours.

They are also a source of intolerance but there's always a chance yours is the wrong one.

I firmly believe that there is every reason to address
and oppose intolerance and to try to promote tolerance.

Intolerance appears to be commonplace worldwide.
There are nearly daily reports of intolerance towards
refugees and immigrants, people from different religious
and ethnic groups and against people who hold ideologically
differing viewpoints.

The pursuit of tolerance is important for social cohesion.
Therefore in our increasingly diverse societies there is
every reason to address and oppose intolerance and to try to
promote tolerance.

Talking about tolerance?

Lets discuss our contributions to this forum.

They haven't all reeked of tolerant and adult behaviour.
We have all had our undesirable moments. Myself
included. We've all lowered the bar at times in
discussions by responding - (sometimes to being provoked),
other times simply to viewpoints that did not agree with
ours. Intolerance is nothing new.

People have prejudicial intolerance based on rigidity,
closemindedness and antipathy towards a group of people
or single individuals. People have deliberate intolerance
which involves specific beliefs or practices that are
considered to violate moral principles and values.
And of course there is intolerance of viewpoint diversity.

Personally, I've been called an old cow, a wicked witch, that
awful woman, a communist, and a Marxist. I've been told that
I am not Australian, that I should go back to the country of
my parents and that not only do I hate Australia but that
Australia would be a better place without me.

My opinion has been described as "yuck." No matter what
topic I raise for discussion it's "stupid" and "crap."
When I raised the subject of a republic - I was told I'm
anti-British and anti - Monarchy. When I brought up the
history of colonialism in this country I was told I was
re-writing history. And the list goes on.

Undoubtedly more will be added from these proponents of
"free speech," as I continue to dare to express an opinion
or raise a topic that doesn't sit well with them. And if I dare to
respond back - I will be the one to blame. Even now in daring to
bring up the subject of "The importance of Tolerance."

Well gentlemen - I'm not going anywhere. I'm here to stay.
And I shall continue to voice my views despite your objections.
Or perhaps because of them.

I was raised to not rock the boat.
to always smile and take it no matter what.
To fit in. However, being on this forum -
I've found to try not to take ourselves too
seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom.

Is Mise,

You said that intolerance is good and that it
builds character.

What kind of character?

Often it builds bullies and causes mental health
issues for many.

A resilient character.

Foxy,
Would you tolerate junkies living in your house?
Would you tolerate a bus driver who drinks on the job?
Would you tolerate a pedophile babysitting your kids?
Would you tolerate driving a car with the wheel nuts not tightened properly?

I keep telling you there's pro's and con's to everything.
There's valid arguments to intolerance that hold merit too;
- If you simply allow your mind to look outside the box.

Armchair Critic,

I stated earlier that tolerance has limits.
It can't tolerate what is itself actively
intolerant - and that includes the things
you've just mentioned ranging from breaking
the laws to causing harm to others.

Such as being intolerant of Marxism and its fellow travellers who seek to place the World under an intolerant system, likewise for Islam.

Is Mise,

In the practice of tolerance, one's enemy
is the best teacher.
(Dalai Lama).

Wishing you kind teachers and gentle lessons.

Namaste.

Not all forms of intolerance are the same.

We have prejudicial intolerance based on rigidity,
closemindedness and antipathy towards a group of
people as well as individuals. We have the disapproval
of group beliefs or practices and we have deliberate
intolerance, which involves interfering with specific
beliefs or practices that are considered to violate
moral principles and values.

As stated earlier - intolerance is not new - but current
events suggest we live in especially intolerant times.
Across many countries people are intolerant of migrants,
refugees, and various minority groups along with
the cultural and religious practices they engage in.

Further more there is intolerance of viewpoint diversity.
Therefore in our increasingly diverse societies there is
every reason to address and oppose intolerance and to
try to promote tolerance - providing of course that
activities do not break the rule of law or do harm to
others.

Of course this is not an easy thing to do but we do at
least have to try if we want to have social cohesion.

Tolerance is the only thing that will enable people
belonging to different religions, having different
viewpoints and values - to live as good neighbours.

Foxy reminds me of Orwell's book 1984-

Foxy seemingly advocates our torture and calls it love-
Foxy seemingly advocates austerity and calls it plenty-
Foxy seemingly goes to war against culture and calls it peace-
Foxy seemingly uses the propaganda of communism to control thought and calls it information.

The four ministries of 1984- Love, Plenty, Peace, Information- similar to Mao's five pillars of the long march through the institutions.
As they say- 1984 wasn't an instruction manual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institutions

http://www.conservapedia.com/Long_March_through_the_institutions

Canem Malum,

Why?

It seems to me that, often, calls for tolerance toward other views is an attempt to stop people pointing out that obviously ignorant or uninformed views are ignorant and uninformed views.

An opinion that isn't open to and capable of being challenged isn't worth hearing.

mhaze,

I totally agree with you providing that it's
done in a civil and respectful manner. But
we have to be careful and try to avoid
personal attacks and ones that simply are
untrue and hurtful.

For example when I raised the subject of a
republic Canem Malum accused me of wanting to
kill the British people and plow fields with
their bodies - and worse.

We have to consider our intentions and the harm
that our words cause - especially on a public
forum such as this one when dealing ananymously
with people we really don't know.

Of course there's no perfect way to respond to someone's
rudeness and hurtful comments. Often just walking away is
the best thing to do.

It's one thing in challenging an opinion but
quite another in making it personal and attacking a
person you don't know.

We must keep in mind that the vast majority of
modern mainstream people, be they Christians, Jews,
Muslims, or whatever their beliefs, with normal family
and social relationships and an at least partially
rational view of how the world works are not extremists.
Or for want of a better word - fundamentalists.

Extremists or fundamentalists are a tiny minority.
And of whatever faith, a psychologist would be likely to
declare them to be of unsound mind.

On this forum posters hail from a myriad of backgrounds,
ethnicities, and family structures. They also think
differently. However through accepting differences and
debating without personal attacks we can all stand to benefit.
But for some this appears to be an impossibility.
Which is unfortunate because it spoils it for the rest.

Foxy,
Islam is controlled by extremists and it breeds extremists,, witness the terrorist plots and acts, including at least two callous murders.that have occurred.

I have no tolerance for Islam or any other ideology that wants to take over my country.

Exactly Is Mise

Is Mise,

None of us should tolerant anything that goes against
our rule of law or does harm to others. I've already
made that quite clear - and you have no argument from
me. However, we do need to be careful regarding Islam
and any other religion. Not to tar everyone with the
same brush.

Today we might have very serious concerns with the
fundamentalist fringe of Islam - just as we do with the
fundamentalist fringes of Christianity - but the vast
majority of modern Mainstream Muslims, Christians, Jews
are not card-carrying fundamentalists as I've explained
earlier. The latter are a tiny minority. Of whatever
faith, a psychologist would likely describe them to be of
unsound mind.

Foxy,

Obviously your understanding of the political entity that is Islam is seriously flawed.

If in a Christian nation the government creates laws against Christianity- is this genocide?

Is Mise,

I don't think any of us are really fully
qualified to discuss Islam in any great depth.
None of us are experts on that subject.

As for genocide?

Genocide according to definitions found on the web -
is an internationally recognized crime where acts are
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in
part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

It's understood by most to be the greatest crime against
humanity.

Some of the genocides include:

The Soviet-man made famine of Ukraine (1932-33)

The Nazis tried to eradicate the Jewish population - 1940s

Rwanda where an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus
died in 1994.

Bosnia - the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica.

Indonesian invasion of East Timor (1975).

The Khmer Rouge killings in Cambodia (1970s).

The Rohingya people fleeing Myanmar.

The Uighur people in Xinjiang.

And the lists continue including the murders committed by Stalin
in the Soviet occupied countries.

Foxy,
I majored in Religious Studies at Uni, I studied Islam for three years, my best friend in India is a Muslim and I have commanded Muslim troops and when in India I see and associate with a lot of Muslim people.
My wife’s best friend is a Muslim (a follower of the Aga Khan) .
We eat almost exclusively at Muslim eateries because they cook beef and mutton and goat.
I am adept at eating with my left hand across my body so that it doesn’t touch food.

I think that I have an understanding of Islam and I agree with my Muslim best mate that the Australian Government were idiots for inviting Muslims into this country and he really knows his own people.

Hey Foxy,
"The Uighur people in Xinjiang."
You're a victim of western propaganda on that one.

US Coerces UN Human Rights Chief Following Xinjiang China Visit
http://youtu.be/vtA_dKjb4F0

Foxy said-

"Genocide according to definitions found on the web -
is an internationally recognized crime where acts are
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in
part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group."

Answer- Yes that sounds like the definition of genocide I'm aware of. I believe that forcing SSM and gay politics on Christian Churches is a form of genocide

Foxy,

Strangely tolerance seems to be more a feature of conservatives than so call progressives. The treatment of Israel Folau is a prime example.

Hey shadowminister,
I might add that without any doubt, conservatives support free speech but progressives think no other speech should be permitted except theirs.

Historically it's been the progressives that are intolerant, the ones who move to ban speech they don't like with cancel culture, however after Novak Djokovic was deported because of his vaccine stance, and the Australian government argued that allowing him to stay in the country would embolden those with anti-vaccine sentiments, I have to say the right's become just as bad.

Is Mise,

Thank You for sharing some of your background and
knowledge with us. Your knowledge of Islam is
undoubtedly greater than mine - I have not studied
that topic in any great detail.

However, having said that, I think that as a person
with normal family and social relationships and
having a rational view of the world as well as
knowing how Islam works - you should be able to
acknowledge that the vast majority of modern
mainstream people, be they Muslims, Christians, Jews,
or any other religious group are not "card-carrying"
fundamentalists or extremists.

To generalize about the religion of Islam - that
1.5 billion people practice worldwide - and coming
from different countries. having different cultures,
and languages - and dumping them all into the one
box - to me is not rational or logical.

Not all Christians or Jews practice their religions in
exactly the same way. You don't seem to allow for
individual differences. Perhaps you and your friends
have their own prejudices?

Just a thought.

Foxy,
Of course I’m prejudiced in regard to Islam, but you can’t compare it to Christianity or Judaism, they are religions but Islam is a political movement with religious overtones.

All Islam can be tarred with the same brush, with very few exceptions, when the fundamentalists say ‘kneel’ they all kneel.
Where are the dissidents in Islam?
Where are those calling for homosexual rights within Islam?
We have heard plenty calling for Sharia law in Australia; where are the Muslims who openly oppose it?
There are those that do so, but not publicly because such opposition could get them killed.

There's a massive difference between tolerance & letting people of selfish character getting away with their antics because it helps one's career !

Is Mise,

Islam has a wide and varied history in Australia going
back decades. There are major organisations and minor
groups and organisations in this country living peacefully
alongside other religions.

Not every Muslim in Australia is a card carrying fundamentalist
or extremist. It is wrong to lump them all together into the
one box.

The Australian Federation of Islamic Councils has spoken
out on many occasions against extremists. As have other Muslim
groups.

There are extremists in every religion.

But I'm at a loss as to why Islam in particular should bother
you so much.

Talking about tolerance?

Many believe that teaching our children about
tolerance is the best gift that a parent can give them.
Children should not grow up with feelings of hate and
suspicion. Children who do grow up with hate and
jealousy of others turn into unhappy people and
children who are forced to believe certain opinions
will develop into people who aren't free or independent
thinkers.

If children experience love and tolerance they will be able to
grow up and lead a happy and peaceful life.

"The best teachers are those who show you where to look,
but don't tell you what to see."

Foxy,
Islam bothers me because it is a fifth column in our Nation.
Its aim is world domination and that is fundamental to all of Islam.

Who was the last Muslim that you know of who criticised or called for a change in the Koran?

Thanks Is Mise I tend to agree with your view here over that of Foxy- that seems to want to "continuously paper over your comments" so that you aren't heard- and changing the intent of your comments.

"Foxy wallpapering"

Canem Malum,

I'll match my "wall papering" with yours any day on this
forum. You're a master of it or a psychologist would
declare you of unsound mind. Not sure which.

BTW:

I don't really like wall papers.

Prefer natural features.

Wall papering is an old antiquated remnant.

Is Mise,

For someone who claims to know so much about Islam
why are you asking me "Who was the last Muslim
that you know who criticized or called for change
in the Koran?"

Don't you know?

Apart from Salman Rushdie?

Try - Irshad Manji and her book - "The Trouble with Islam:
A Wake-Up Call For Honesty and Change."

Also there's more at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wkik/Criticism_of_Islam#

My apologies - another typo.

Here's the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Islam#