There was talk on National Radio about youth crime escalating again since the COVID restriction were lifted.
To me, this is the most crystal clear evidence to-date that a National Service is not only desperately needed, there is simply no alternative to such a service.
Education is failing abysmally & individual Rights are fertile ground for worsening this trend.
Our Law makers need to have their seats put on fire & their thoughts diverted from Superannuation to the state of our society, crime rates in particular. Unless the present generation puts instilling common sense & a sense of responsibility before their "individual rights" & towards the common good we might actually be better off to invite China to manage this Nation.
Without discipline & a focus on discipline a Nation is not a free Nation !

You have a good point Indyvidual. Kudos

Indy,

You favour the "blow torch" approach, a nation service is not the answer. What is needed is early intervention to stop the progression of children from early juvenile detention to adult prison, caused by antisocial and criminal behaviour at an early age, and then on going. A child needs a rewarding pathway in life, and no quick fix national service late in adolescence is going to achieve that. Early intervention is not only cost effective as a process of realignment, but it is effective in preventing recidivism when early behaviour indicates failure is taking place.

There are many factors that drive children in the wrong direction in life, a poor home environment, social conflict in an unhealthy environment , lack of proper parenting, failure of education, lack of opportunity, many things that need to be addressed to reset a child in life's right direction.

Since the Covid restrictions were lifted. These little thugs put a hold on their activities because of Covid restrictions? I don’t think so.

Has anyone ever heard military authorities - or any authorities paid to see to the running of the country - call for 'national service' to solve crime and bad behaviour?

Punishment is what these little bastards need, and they are not getting it, thanks to our weak courts.

National service is about 'service' and honour; not about punishing scumbags, who should be locked up.

We have boot camps now. How many of these criminals are sentenced to take part in them?

Yes ttbn, rather than wasting our time electing politicians, we should be electing all judges & magistrates. Perhaps if they had to stand for reelection every 4 years or so, they would give sentences more in line with what the paying public want.

Of course most of them have been practicing lawyers, so perhaps have more sympathy with those who have been their clients in the past than the long suffering public.

Meanwhile jails should be places where no one ever wants to go, rather than holiday camps for thugs.

Hasbeen,

I believe that they elect judges in the US, where sentencing is more realistic.

A recent example of the unsuitably of Australian judges for their positions occurred here in SA, where a male, drunk and drugged, killed a young boy while driving a jetski on the Murray. He got a lousy two years. Even then the female judge said, pathetically, said that she 'had no choice but to send him to jail'.

In the past, the Crown Prosecutor would have appealed, often winning. Now, those time serving bureaucrats are too gutless to do their jobs as well.

Then, of course, we have the politicians who should be doing something, but are not.

Dear Indyvidual,

«there is simply no alternative to such a service.»

Castration!

Even chop off other limbs as that would still be relatively kinder to the victims¹.

«Without discipline & a focus on discipline a Nation is not a free Nation !»

Well and good - I would like to see free people, not free nations, in fact there should ideally not be any nations to begin with.
If I ever wanted to suffer a nation, terrorising both young and old, then I could just as well invite China to take over - they are quite good at it!

---
¹ the question remains, though, whether it would also be sufficiently stimulating and satisfying for the tormentor who started this thread

Hasbeen said- Yes ttbn, rather than wasting our time electing politicians, we should be electing all judges & magistrates. Perhaps if they had to stand for reelection every 4 years or so, they would give sentences more in line with what the paying public want.

Answer- I've never been a fan of the idea of voting for state court judges as in the American uncontested system but I have to admit it sounds like it may produce better judges and legal decisions than we have in Australia now- but I'd have to investigate how judges are appointed in Australia.

I suppose the same could be done in consideration of the chief of police and other senior bureaucratic positions.

http://www.kcet.org/news-community/ballot-brief/when-and-why-we-vote-for-judges

It appears that judges in Australia are appointed by the juresdictions government and have tenure. Perhaps the tenure system is an issue at Universities too and the cause of a loss of touch with the traditions (and fashions) of the electorate and become more a self serving echo chamber. At times the electorates fashions perhaps do need to be managed. And tenure at times probably stops official roles from becoming corrupted by foreign nations- as well as attracting better people- in theory. I suppose in universities the attraction of the multi-billion dollar foreign student industry is always going to corrupt other considerations. Attributed to Lenin- "capitalists will sell communists the rope to hang them with". I suppose the rope in this case is immigration under the guise of selling education! Neither free trade nor free culture is good- freedom must be balanced with responsibility!

I suspect that the knowledgeable feel that the whole Australian governing structure needs to be reviewed but who would control the review- probably the wrong people??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Australia

Thanks for raising this interesting issue Hasbeen- Kudos.

Indy wants his own version of Hitler Youth. There are many Old Farts who would support that idea, considering they would not have to take part themselves. Now my idea of a "Seniors National Service" they are not so keen on, for the obvious reasons. In my SNS there would be a special OLO Patoon with Indy up front, ttbn, Hassy, CM, Issy in the ranks and mhaze bring up the rear.

Punishment is what these little bastards need,
ttbn,
That's what the service is for the young brats. For the decent young it's an experience they'll cherish & build their life on !

Paul1405,
Your kind of mentality is what caused the desperate need for more discipline, respect & diligence in the first place so, please refrain from offering advise, you don't have any !

indy,
From where do you get the delusion that the decent young would regard national service more favourably? Do you imagine that having done no wrong would somehow make them LESS resentful of the government taking away their freedom?

Hi Aidan,

We had National Service during the Vietnam War, Indy missed out, but when he became eligible for military service, surprise, surprise, he didn't join up. I think he was like that toe rag Little Johnny who was all for the war, but when he came eligible, well, pissed off to London. Then there was 'Pig Iron' Bob, the founder of the Liberal Party, who was aged between 19 and 23 during WWI, All for the War, King and Country and all that patriotic BS. Although 90% of males that age volunteered, 'Pig Iron' Bob failed to do so.

One thing about Menzies, in 1938 he returned from a two week trip to Germany with glowing reports about the virtues of Nazism, but he was disappointed he hadn't been able to meet the Fuhrer's personally. Can't have everything in life you want.

government taking away their freedom?
Aidan,
Wrong way of looking at it ! 12-18 months of serving the nation is not 'taking away freedom', it's doing one's part for the privilege of living in a reasonably safe Nation !
The gimme, gimme mentality that's kept Paul1405 alive is not supported by those who put in the effort !

Indy,
Your post would make more sense if your first exclamation mark were a colon!

Who are you to tell the younger generation that their way of looking at it is wrong?

>12-18 months of serving the nation is not 'taking away freedom'
So you're saying it should be voluntary?
Or are you just lying?

>it's doing one's part for the privilege of living in a reasonably safe Nation !
Paying taxes fulfils that function less intrusively.

"Punishment is what these little bastards need"

A lot of people in my neck of the woods are upset today.
This event occurred about 10 minutes away from where I live, and a 5 minute walk from where close friends live.
- I'm told he got 6 and a half years and will serve 4 and a half.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-08/hit-and-run-pregnant-couple-alexandra-hills-brisbane-leadbetter/101135384

- Outrageous -

Paying taxes fulfils that function less intrusively.
Aidan,
Your comment highlights the problems to perfection !

Hi AC,

As a "local" myself to the Alexandra Hills area of Brisbane, about 15km away, I was "shocked" with what I perceived as the leniency of that sentence in that particular case, maybe it needs further examination.

But I'm not in favour of hanging kids for stealing a lollipop, as it appears some on the forum are. This Indy idea, and he's put it up on the forum for years, Youth National Service, its full of spit and venom for young people from an out of touch old men.

BTW Indy; If SERVICE is such a wonderful idea, why didn't YOU do it when you had the opportunity?

why didn't YOU do it when you had the opportunity?
Paul1405,
Those who paid the costs for the rest of us to live in relative safety & undeserved comfort must be turning in their graves with regret when reading your posts !

Indy,

You always dodge that question as to why YOU avoided any kind of National Service for the country. At one time, you were 35 or under, an Australian citizen, physically fit I assume. You could have marched down to that army recruitment office, and joined up, doing your bit for Australia, but YOU chose not to, WHY NOT? Simple question.

Hi Paul,
"As a 'local' myself to the Alexandra Hills area of Brisbane, about 15km away, I was "shocked" with what I perceived as the leniency of that sentence in that particular case, maybe it needs further examination."
I live down at Vicky Point.

Watching the news today, there's a lot of things going on that raise an eyebrow.

Bullets fired into Gold Coast police beat
http://www.9news.com.au/national/queensland-bullets-fired-into-gold-coast-police-beat/9858199b-5ec8-42c4-ad35-f8ff7b3e54e1

Gold Coast family 'lucky' to be alive after bullet flies through their car in random shooting
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-08/coolangatta-car-shooting-random-lucky-couple-police-gold-coast/101134996

Gold Coast siege ends as police arrest two men after 20-hour standoff
http://www.9news.com.au/national/police-siege-locks-down-nerang-gold-coast/e1b5fd2d-490d-47d0-b576-ca7ebb0f7412

- And that's on top of the weak sentence given to the 17yo that ran that couple and their unborn child down.

[Cont.]

I grew up a little bit of a dysfunctional kid.
As a teenager I had no respect for authority.
I've been arrested for doing the wrong thing a few times in my life.
Smoking weed, drink-driving (I very rarely drink and don't smoke weed at all anymore) and a few other things I'm not going to share.
I even went to jail once, but it was for non-payment of fines.
On that occasion I did 11 weeks in a low security correctional facility to pay back $2200 in fines, and it was in my mid 20's - back around 1999.

I want to say that I don't know what the solution to all this is, but I do understand cause and effect.

I can tell you some of these kids will brag over whose got the biggest rap sheets as though it gives them clout.
They don't care about anything, and they know how to work the system.
They'll have their youth justice workers come in and say they had bad childhoods, subjected to whatever at home as kids, say they deeply regret their actions and the next day they are high-fiving their mates in Juvey, when they get a light sentence.

It seems that the path of this current human-rights agenda has become so slanted that they care more about the rights of the perpetrators than they do the victims.

I can't help thinking that the law has to REALLY make them sorry, before things will ever change, like maybe things were better years ago when the cops took them up a backstreet dished out a little bit of street justice of their own.

You know - he gets to the police station, with 6 cracked ribs, 2 back eyes, a broken nose, and kicked in the knee from the side so that they can never walk properly again, cops say, "He fell over"

- The type of punishment, where even to themselves in private they WISH TO GOD that they had never done what they did.

[Cont.]
I know its sounds bad, but you know what?
I know that more innocent people are going to be harmed by this slap-on-the-wrist mentality towards don't-give-a-shite adolescents who think it gives them more clout with their other don't-give-a-shite mates.

I just don't see things changing, and think things will only get worse.
Maybe they should go back to convict days with leg irons and hard labour, I don't know what the answer is.

On the other end of the scale, this 20 hour 'seige' with 2 people in Nerang last night and this morning.
- People forced to sleep in their cars and not go home, because they cut off their ankle bracelets...

It's ridiculous, people should at least go to a hotel and send the cops the bill if the cops can't deal with these situations.
They was no mention on the news of either of them being armed, so looking people out of accessing their own homes for such petty things seems just as outrageous as the light sentences for manslaughter.
I don't care if your a kid and you decide to steal a car and drive around off your face and you kill 2 people and a baby.

Going back to the first issue -
- Assuming he's been in trouble with police before;
12 months for stealing the car, another 12 months for dangerous
driving another 12months for doing it drunk or on drugs 10 years each for killing the couple and another 5 for the unborn baby.
If sentences were harsher, their might actually be less people in jail.
And some kind of hard labour as well.

I messed up and the above comment and it reads a little wrong
This:
"Going back to the first issue -"
- was meant to be before this
"I don't care if your a kid and you decide to steal a car and drive around off your face and you kill 2 people and a baby."
- not after it.

I had my car side window smashed in a few days ago & left the car doors ajar but nothing appears to be missing. the owners of the other cars broken into said the little craps were "only" looking for change & cigarettes.
That was my fitfh car broken into with the least damage. Three of the others were a write-off from Bush-bashing & another simply disappeared.
No-one can convince me that several months in a bush camp pulling weeds & knocking off cane toads with a spray of Dettol wouldn't give these parent-forgotten kids better ideas for life !
Any damage these little craps cause should need to be paid for by the parents as they more often than not have far healthier Bank accounts than I'll ever see !
Lazy parents are exploiting the morons in authority & we're stuck withe the little darlings.
Paul1405 always asks for evidence of others having served in a national service well, he should volunteer to pick up the tab for the folly of his role as a useless bureaudroid letting the young crims off every time !

So young guys would be divided into three, more or less equal, groups:

Those who can afford to flee the country before turning 18;
those who would commit suicide to escape the camps;
and the roughies who like that sort of things, who see it as fun, who would use the opportunity to gang and embark together from these camps on raid excursions, looting, raping, breaking, burning, harrassing and injuring.

These will be the remaining young generation in Australia to do all the work as the rest of us get too old: poor human quality and much fewer in numbers.

You will have lots of blood on your hands, Indyvidual, but besides that, who will nurse you when you are too old and can no longer take care of yourself? I hope you die painfully of bed-sores because there is nobody left to change your soiled sheets and turn you over.

Yuytsu,
What wharped mentality you have !

Are Paul1405,Yuyutsu & Aidan et al really the future thinkers ?
Nothing short of terrifying and, they're the ones calling Putin a Dictator ?
Are they products of modern Australian University learning ?

Hey indyvidual,

"I had my car side window smashed in a few days ago & left the car doors ajar but nothing appears to be missing. the owners of the other cars broken into said the little craps were "only" looking for change & cigarettes."

And see there you have it.

When I was pretty young, maybe grade 6, I lived near a golf course.
I'd swim across a stagnant moat to get on the course and then fish golf balls out by feeling around for them with my toes in the mud to find them, take them back home to clean them up and then head down to the gold course car park to sell them back to the golfers, but there was a level of danger, like the potential of being hit in the head with a golf ball danger. Not sure mum knew how dangerous it actually was. we'd have to hide under the little wooden bridges when golfers were teeing off and walking through with their golf buggies, lest we'd risk being hit or they'd dob us in and/or the coursey would come after us.
$10 or so was good money for a 11 year old back in 1984 and I felt like a little entrepreneur.
By the next year or so I started smoking, Peter Jackson 15's - 87 cents, buy them over the counter at Coles aged 12.
They didn't ask for ID back then.

The cheapest price of smokes now is about $25
How else do poor kids from homes with single mums get that money without stealing?
Any of you seen any lemonade stands lately?
- I'm not defending them for breaking into cars just pointing out the problem.
Once you start stealing, you keep stealing.
It only gets worse.

I don't know all the details about the crimes mentioned in this thread, but I very much doubt longer sentences would help. Those who commit those crimes don't think they'll be caught (and in the case of manslaughter, don't think they'll kill or even injure anyone else), so the sentences won't have much of a deterrent effect.

And (Armchair) even if they receive no punishment at all, those who commit manslaughter are likely to WISH TO GOD that they had never done what they did. But if there's police brutality, the people quickly get the idea that the police are their enemy. It's very highly counterproductive.

We need to foster genuine respect rather than relying on fear for everything.
____________________________________________________________________________

Yuyutsu,
There'd be a lot more than three groups, and the number resorting to suicide (though significant) would be far less than you think - many more would resentfully endure it. There would also be those who go on the run, and those who mutiny.

____________________________________________________________________________

Indy,
Paul's too old for me to regard him as a future thinker. I'm not sure about Yuyutsu.

As for me, I did study Civil Engineering in an Australian university in the 21st century, so I suppose I could be classified as a product of modern Australian University learning, although I'm pretty sure I had the thinking skills you lack even before I went to Uni.

But I really don't understand what has made you so mentally feeble that you're terrified of what I say!
Is it because you fear admitting you're wrong? I notice you consistently fail to properly engage with criticism of what you say, and instead resort to platitudes and ad hominems.

Aidan,
University & associated jargon fall way, way short of making you a thinker ! It's obvious that you've convinced yourself as being a thinker, alas.
Civil engineers ? Ha,ha very funny ! I have had my fair share of dealings with them. It might be worthwhile for you not to forget (not my words) that it was amateurs who built the Ark & experts who built the TITANIC !
For some deluded reason University has indoctrinated simple people to believe that they're just so valuable to society. Wrong and, proven wrong countless times !

Dear Aidan,

«Paul's too old for me to regard him as a future thinker. I'm not sure about Yuyutsu.»

I have no idea what a "future thinker" means: I was already thinking independently by the age of 1, I continue to think at present, and by God's willing and grace, my thinking capacity will be retained for many years to come.

Hi Aiden,

"Paul's too old for me to regard him as a future thinker."

That can be taken two ways. One, that Paul at 69 is too old to be capable of embracing thought in the here and now that would be of benefit to tomorrow's Australia. Or, two, Paul is simply now of an age that he is physically not going to be around in the future to be part of the future Australia, I favour the latter. I have always considered myself a progressive thinker, and readily embrace chance, when change is necessary for the good. I can still be of benefit, in affecting future thinking, in a small way with respect to discussion of ideas and attitudes with say my grandchildren, and the formulation in their young minds about how they will approach tomorrow, and their thinking into the future. I can actively support younger future progressive thinkers today, as in my help in a very small way to get young people elected to parliament where they can start to make a difference. I have high hopes for Stephan Bates, the now federal member for the seat of Brisbane. I am proud of senator Mehreen Faruqi, my friendship and the positive roll Mehreen is playing in improving Australia through her work in the Senate, I wish we had ten more like here, sorry we Greens have.

A guy like ttbn in his eighties is a regressive thinker, that's not because of his age, he would have been a regressive thinker all his life.

For all his great and noble ideals of a National Service for young people, all Indy can come up with is he would have them killing TOADS for a year or two! My grandaughter should put aside he great ideas for her future and go and kill toads. I have previously passed on my granddaughters opinion of Indy's National Service, it wasn't pleasant.

Indy assumes that as it was "young people" who vandalised his car, then all young people need to be penalised in some way and his boot camp nonsense will teach them a lesson.

Indy answer the question; When given the opportunity to participate in some form of National Service, ie, military service, YOU BLOODY SHIRKED IT. What a hypocrite!

Hi AC,

I'm down by The Bay, km away, great place to live, we spend every morning, almost, down there as the sun comes up.

Re, the Alex Hills deaths, I understand there is going to be an appeal of the sentence given for the manslaughter of Matthew Field, Kate Leadbetter along with the death of their unborn child. I don't know the facts in detail, but there seems to be general community outrage at the sentence handed down. In fairness, a detailed explanation is warranted. I don't see this in terms of winners and losers, just losers allround.

Just on juvie, some friends run a thing called "Sails" for young kids to get out on The Bay with experienced blokes and do some sailing. Its voluntary and there is no cost involved, everything supplied. They tell me most of the kids really enjoy the experience and want more. I was asked; "Do you want to join Sails", I said what are you selling? Not sales, sails. I don't have the time at the moment.

Hi Paul,
Ah yeah, I was down at the new Woolies this morning, it's pretty good now the newly opened Reddy Bay shops and I don't mind the Chinese from across the road.
I see they've got the circus tent all set up next to the pub at the moment.
I was almost thinking about taking my girlfriend and her 7year old daughter along.

Maybe I want a bit far with my earlier rant about dishing out some serious punishment to some of these adolescents, I just know that more people are going to end up harmed if we keep going down this path, something needs to change.
- I did make the point that I don't know what the solution to some of these kids is.

It's not a bad place around here, becoming more and more built up over the last few years.
It's probably better for older couples / empty nesters,
And maybe it's not so much as great for younger people.
- But it could be a whole lot worse.
There's not a great deal of things for younger people to do.
Sailing sounds like an idea that's about as good as anything.
If it gets them out doing something positive it's a step in the right direction.

And as Aiden mentioned, maybe it might foster some genuine respect.
It's good that there's no cost involved, with everything supplied.
- And that someone cares enough to try and put the young ones on a batter path.

If being silly were to be made a criminal offence, Paul1405 would receive several life sentences without parole !

Indy,
I don't get your reference to jargon. Is there something I've said you don't understand? If so, tell me and I can explain it.

Designing ships is not considered part of civil engineering (despite IK Brunel having designed three). It's marine engineering, which is usually classified as a subset of mechanical engineering. There are some marine/civil overlaps, but they generally relate to things like the design of ports rather than the ships themselves.

The main purpose of studying engineering is so we can know what works and what doesn't, and why. Were ship design left to those who hadn't studied engineering, a lot more ships would sink!

I was already able to think, but seeing the wrong infrastructure getting built made me want to study civil engineering to change that. Why do you assume it not to be valuable to society?

The US method of electing Public Prosecutors, local town sheriffs and even coroners is a social disaster. Candidates are typical poorly qualified and depend on populism rather than ability.

Their legal system is therefore based on the number of successful prosecutions rather than administering justice and has resulted in a huge prison population (the highest in the world) and an abundance of false convictions with severe limitations for appeal.

Indy,

Are you still working on an answer to the question, why YOU didn't perform NATIONAL SERVICE yourself when you had the opportunity. Very simple question.

Now TOADS, when my SENIORS NATIONAL SERVICE comes into vogue, harvesting of TOADS will be a top priority, our old folk must be fed! Indy do you have any TOAD recipes? I have a couple of delicious ones for road kill, I'm sure TOADS can be substituted satisfactorily, "waste not, want not", I say!

My granddaughters plan (A) involves her finishing high school, and then studying sports medicine, something she is doing one day a week now at school. Then the girl wants to spend time in Japan working and learning in her chosen field. Her plan (B) is killing TOADS at Indy's place for two years. Indy, don't you think plan (B) is the far better option?

I don't get your reference to jargon.
Aidan,
i know you don't get it, we expect that from you ! Once you do get it you'll write differently !

Paul1405,
sadly, you're beyond any hope of ever seeing sense !

Time to ignore you again for a while.

Hey Paul1405,
I heard Kate Leadbetter's Dad was down at the Red Shop in Alex Hills today where that incident happened to oppose the 6 year jail term,
- apparently they've gotten 26000 signatures in just a few hours.

Hi AC,

I believe the Queensland Attorney-General Shannon Fentiman is reviewing the outcome, and an appeal is possible next week. No matter how bad the circumstance are, and in this case they are horrendously bad, the rule of law must prevail. I'm not sure in this case if it happened, but I believe in such cases the presiding magistrate should be required to give a detailed explanation as to the reasons for the sentence imposed.

For those morons who fail to understand the seriousness of Cane toads, take a moment to think & then perhaps read about the impact of these toads on the environment. If you then still think this a frivolous affair then I'm afraid you really are as insipid as most of us here have suspected for years now !
Bush camps for young people would be an adventure they'd treasure for life. It'd expose them to socialising which is all but dead now in the suburbs. Imagine their pride to know that they're actually smarter than their parents ?

Hi Paul1405,
I'm glad they're taking another look at it.
A lot of people in the community aren't happy about it.
He was never named in the newspapers, but on facebook he was named and his father was too.
From what I remember seeing on facebook myself the whole family were grubs,
- and maybe that's what he used as a defense;
Poor upbringing or something, who knows.

- But those couple didn't deserve that especially after he was videoed driving around the streets like a maniac running other cars off the road prior to the incident.

My friend went there and signed it.
FYI, I found out it's not called the Red Shop anymore.
It's called the 'Do Drop In'.
And they have really good food apparently.
It's good to support the small businesses instead of the fast food chains.

Kudos Indyvidual-

National Service- Most people that do basic training admit that they learned a lot about things and it was a valuable experience.
Do you think we could introduce some basic training style training within the school system- similar to the Army Cadet's- I'm sure that the "Maoist march through the institutions four pillar types" would be upset by it.

Armchair Critic-

If people get away with little things they'll graduate to big things. But the Communists Tabula Rasa controlling hiring and firing within bureaucracy the whole system is corrupt- we need to start with the bureaucracy and work outwards from the centre

As far as Engineering goes- until the 1900's Engineering was learned on the job- mainly on steam engines. In recent times since the 1980's it's been recognised that many engineers don't have enough time in the laboratory doing practical tasks. Aiden is correct in saying that engineers are given a broad tuition across engineering disciplines in the first 1-2 years. Sadly many engineering graduates don't go on to engineering careers in Australia. It's not enough to train skillful people- Australia needs the infrastructure to make use of their skills for both the benefit of Australia and themselves.

In older times sons followed the trade of their fathers- this perhaps ensures that the nation is stable in a sense- a doesn't have- so called shortages- of skills.

Hey Canem Malum,
"If people get away with little things they'll graduate to big things."
Yeah that's true, people tend to stick with what they know or what they think works for them.

'Tabula Rasa' - Had to look that one up, I didn't know what it meant.
Interestingly I learned a Russian term myself the other day, 'maskirovka'

I haven't gotten around to looking at Marxism/Leninism in depth yet.
- But I have come across a few things, I'm planning on looking at more.

Recently I've been looking at western state sponsored media censorship in regards to so called 'Russian disinformation'; and after looking at Fabian Socialists, and global elite from the Bilderberg group in mind...
http://fabiansociety.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/hello-world/
I came across this below from KGB propaganda expert Yuri Bezmenov.
KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's warning to America
http://youtu.be/bX3EZCVj2XA
In it he mentioned the term 'Communist Conspiracy' which kind-of pricked my ears up, as I'd heard that somewhere before, and it was here:
http://books.google.com.au/books/about/None_Dare_Call_It_Conspiracy.html?id=uFjaoAEACAAJ
NDCC is an admirable job of amassing information to prove that communism is socialism and socialism (a plot to enslave the world) is not a movement of the downtrodden but a scheme supported and directed by the wealthiest of people. If enough Americans read and act upon NDCC, they really can save the Republic from the conspirators-whose plans for the destruction of our country are galloping fast toward completion.

Seems to me that if anyone leader knew about this stuff, it would be Putin,
- But the USSR's gone and it's the globalists running the show now.

- I'll probably poke my nose around a bit of this stuff, when I get time.

I think the rapport between Trump and Putin says a lot as to his philosophy- that's not to say that Putin can be trusted but says that perhaps the issues are more complex than perception.

Putin as the embodiment of the Russian intelligence community knows the state of play more than most- if he hasn't been compromised by the "hall of mirrors"- and knows what's at stake- remember the Russian intelligence community killed Trotsky- the poster boy of modern socialism. At times communist countries have been at odds- for example in Vietnam.

Tabula Rasa "blank slate" was a key discussion point of Fyodor Dostoevsky- Jordon Peterson talks about him more than anyone else from memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demons_(Dostoevsky_novel)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idiot

Aside- the concept of Tabula Rasa comes up in a few contexts in philosophy- Schopenhauer advocated hermit-ism, Buddhism talks about idealism and humanity blinding us to reality. Schopenhauer was one of the great group of three German thinkers/ philosophers- Nietzsche, Goethe, Schopenhauer. Goethe attended Schopenhauer's mothers intellectual "salon".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_philosophy

Yuri Bezmenov is good value- he eventually left America in disgust at "Bernay's consumer culture" the culture of emotion.

Also interesting...
http://www.rbth.com/history/334691-inside-mitrokhin-archive-spy-ussr-kgb

Thanks ttbn for the information on "maskirovka".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa

"Tabula rasa (/ˈtæbjələ ˈrɑːsə, -zə, ˈreɪ-/; "blank slate") is the theory that individuals are born without built-in mental content, and therefore all knowledge comes from experience or perception. Epistemological proponents of tabula rasa disagree with the doctrine of innatism, which holds that the mind is born already in possession of certain knowledge. Proponents of the tabula rasa theory also favour the "nurture" side of the nature versus nurture debate when it comes to aspects of one's personality, social and emotional behaviour, knowledge, and sapience. "

Also applies to society.

Hey Canem Malum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy
Tolstoy also seems to have been a favorite of the elites

To Armchair Critic- I'm not a literary expert but it's my understanding that- Yes Tolstoy was a liberal- War and Peace, Anna Karinina are both considered liberal works. He lived after the ground breaking events of the French Revolution in Greater Europe and the first generation of Liberalism followed by the second generation of Nihilism that followed up until the Paris Commune of the 1860's.

Dostoevsky said that the elite children of the French Revolution were Liberals but their children attended elite universities and became Nihilists and considered their parents generation to be weaklings holding onto the corrupt vestiges of patriarchy and monarchy. Perhaps similar to ancient Greece they were the victims of Sophists- Diogene's might be interesting reading here.

(Diogene's as I understand was an antagonist of the rebel Socrates- an ancient form of traditionalist. But rebel's become conservatives once they obtain power.)

Similar movements were occurring across Europe including Britain at the time and corresponded with the Industrial Revolution and the rise of the middle class. The assassination of Russia's Nicholas II was attributed to the increased availability of handguns due to the revolution in manufacturing technology through interchangeable parts developed in France. It's an example of military technology leading as agricultural mechanization had still to evolve in the 1910's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchangeable_parts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor%C3%A9_Blanc

So it appears that it wasn't the corrupt hierarchy that led into the world war's but the technology of industrialism- man's nature has always had issues- but he was never able to act on their nature until industrial capacity became available.

You could argue that female's in Western culture have always pushed their men out the door to work in the fields or fight in wars- under pains of social exclusion- it seems to be female instinct- female nature has issues.

Amazing, how a cut and paste from Wikipedia can appear to make one look like a world genius, another Einstein in fact, so true in your case CM. I bet you even have the same hairstyle as old Albert.

Armchair Critic said-
Hey Canem Malum, "If people get away with little things they'll graduate to big things." Yeah that's true, people tend to stick with what they know or what they think works for them.

Answer- I'm not sure if I was completely clear. If people act dangerously on the road or in public (a form of "acting out") and the police or people in general don't hold them responsible for their actions. Then they will graduate to bigger things- they will "act out" in bigger and bigger ways. The main point of acting out as I understand is to be noticed for negative things because they have become anti-social. They aren't rewarded for the positive things or if they are going to be bad anyway they may as well be good at it. There is also the "activist" mentality. The adoption of mental states can have valid reasons. As are the mental states of the legal profession that interact with them and the community at large. All of these mental states even the ones of the legal profession can also be pathological.

Sadly in the case of the death of "Kate Leadbetter" no one reigned in the suspected offender.

Some communities enforce standards- to me a small amount of loss of freedom is a small price to pay to avoid the tragic case of the Leadbtter's. If the suspected offender was kicked out of the church picnic for spitting in the tea pot that surely would have satisfied their need to rebel and a few more productive people would be still alive- surely a better outcome- even for the suspected offender.

"If people get away with little things they'll graduate to big things."
Armchair Critic,
That is of course the career path of criminal minds. Somewhat more apt would be "the more illegal activity people can get away with, the more they'll engage in illegal activity" !
Well, what a big surprise that is to our educated policy makers !
Any village idiot will foretell with absolute accuracy & without a multi-million Dollar "study" that the absence of punishment is fodder for criminal activity.
The question here is how to counter this growing trend. Unfortunately, the incompetents in authority are either too weak or simply too stupid to even try to address the problem of discipline, respect & sense of responsibility. Of course, there are criminal minds in authority also & they'll put up hurdles on any path to prevention of problems.
I think compensation to be paid to victims of petty crimes by the culprits/parents would provide a solid foundation to bring about change. National Service would very quickly become supported as it would take potential perpetrators off the scene for starters.
Making parents responsible for minor damages at first would then bring about support for giving parents & teachers more authority in discipling troublesome children & telling the "experts" to 'butt out' would also gather momentum !

At least you're trying to come up with a way to prevent these deaths from occurring again.

Many deliberate tragedies would not have happened if the the people had not been let down by those who get handsome salaries for supposedly 'helping' people in distress !
The one & only reason why such people in authority perpetually fail in their duties is that they're not required to prove their suitability for the position by inapt bureaucrats.

I think whilst juvenile crime is a problem in our society;
Society has much bigger problems than just juvenile crime.
And I'm not sure there's any going back, our whole societies have become complete subverted with divide and conquer mentality on every level, and it's likely been done not for liberal values but intentionally.

I've said some conspiratorial and outlandish-like things in the past, but it's all getting real now.

Democracy may have been good in design and inception, but it's been weaponised against us all.
What happens when unelected beaurecrats conspire to keep us all poor, keep us all stupid, and keep us all divided against each other to gain more power unto themselves?

Just read this morning that Russia and China are moving closer together.
http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/china-vows-support-for-russia-drawing-us-ire/news-story/8ac7bc9c300fc7c313b66307673200e4
http://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/xi-tells-putin-s-ukraine-invasion-legitimate-20220616-p5au2o.html

I think this endless battle between the left and right is stupid and it's not going to get us anywhere.
(endless passing the baton, to continually shift the goalposts for the benefit of outside forces)
Libtards completely incapable of thinking rationally, no matter what information is presented to them.
And just as a battle between left and right is stupid, a battle between the east and west is even more destructive.
Our country is more or less caught in the middle between east and west more than any other.

The whole world is crisis which might just be exactly what others have planned,
- Right down to people arguing over ever topic imaginable right at their dinner tables.

The WEF had it planned all along, and it's getting worse | Redacted with Clayton Morris
http://youtu.be/8lvFuX2LXkg

The second part of that video above isn't worth watching.
It's just another step towards total enslavement.
I've read the plan for RFID goes much further than that.
I told you all ages ago, it's about total dominance over every aspect of our lives.
Total enslavement of society.

http://www.theorganicprepper.com/wef-track-rfid-tags/
http://www.9news.com.au/national/customers-unaware-kmart-and-bunnings-are-capturing-their-faceprint/8c67ef77-fbcd-451d-8e98-2af1f2439389

Even before the Bilderberg meetings first convened in 1954, they've had this all planned out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Warburg
"He gained some notice in a February 17, 1950, appearance before the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations in which he said, "We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest."

Erdogan was once quoted as saying, "Democracy is like a tram. You ride it until you arrive at your destination, then you step off."
- None of this is going to end well.

Juvenile crime isn't just a problem in and of itself

- It's not a cause, it's a symptom,
Of a very sick society in crisis, by design.

Armchair Critic said-

I think this endless battle between the left and right is stupid and it's not going to get us anywhere (endless passing the baton, to continually shift the goalposts for the benefit of outside forces)
Libtards completely incapable of thinking rationally, no matter what information is presented to them. And just as a battle between left and right is stupid, a battle between the east and west is even more destructive. Our country is more or less caught in the middle between east and west more than any other.

Answer-

With the greatest of respect Armchair Critic. There are situations that cannot be negotiated away. In negotiation theory they talk about BATNA. In that case you must make a stand on your principles and walk away from the negotiation. My understanding of your position is that you are a "moderate" you believe that "the truth lies somewhere in the middle"- but that isn't always true. This is a principle that appears to be used in the legal profession- but for those that are aware additional opportunities present themselves- if you present something so extreme that it's ridiculous- people still feel obliged to work from moderate principles. I suggest that you read up on the Overton Window if you haven't already- and try to understand what it means for moderatism. It's been said that Communists move the acceptable dialogue to the left in order to move the moderate centrists to get a political majority- hijacking the negotiation and forcing a compromise. This is the fallacy of moderatism

There are a number of cases- for example in council meetings- where extremist tactics are used to hijack the meeting- feminism, gay-ism, multiculturalism, etc are used as an excuse. There are counter tactics that can be used.

When one of the parties isn't negotiating in good faith then the negotiation needs to be re-evaluated. I believe that it's potentially feasible to negotiate with women- but not with communists- communists only believe in power- the only way to beat them is to dominate them- essentially by the truth- but the path to the truth often requires expenditure. In negotiation there are a number of strategies that can be used to sway the outcome in your favour.

One of the problems with the Libertarian Free Trade philosophy is that according to Ayn Rand's discussion- Libertarian's don't try to tell the people what to believe- effectively ceding ground to those Socialists that do. Ayn Rand sees productivity as defining life sustainability- and says that people are valuable to society according to their productivity. The producers can only produce if the people of the community value their products.

Ayn Rand's Model of Libertarianism is based on some assumptions that are not always true...

1. it is assumed that producers do not use their production and their influence to stop competitors from entering the market

The devils always in the detail.

In principle much what you say has merit in my view- but...

The battle between the left and right "is" the battle between the East and West in many ways.

But the left isn't really left and the right isn't really right- it's always about power.

The battle is stupid but not to stand up for our principles would be more stupid.

Dear Canem Malum,

«Ayn Rand's Model of Libertarianism is based on some assumptions that are not always true...»

Ayn Rand is more of a capitalist than a libertarian.
I cannot blame this girl who was traumatised by the Soviet oppression, but her ideology is more of an emotional reaction rather than a consistent system of philosophy.

A capitalist wants state(s) to protect their wealth, to provide safe trade-routes, to prevent the mob from raiding and looting their stores, to protect their personal assets when their companies crash - but when asked in return to pay taxes and comply with regulations, they cry that their freedom is compromised.

A libertarian in contrast, does not expect any free gifts, only wants to be left alone or with the people they freely choose to associate with.

I remember a leading figure in the libertarian movement said "the libertarian movement wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Ayn Rand".

My understanding of Libertarianism is that it essentially means "Free Trade"- Ayn Rand's philosophy was Objectivism. Capitalism- seems to me to be similar to Libertarianism- but I'm interested in hearing Yuyutsu's perspective.

But the point I was trying to make is Ayn Rand said in Atlas Shrugged- through the character of John Galt and others "we don't try to tell people what they should believe"- and "you shouldn't sell to people that don't believe in the same philosophy that you do". I've heard similar comments from those with Business Ideology and it seems to be a prevalent paradigm in the business community.

Dear Canem Malum,

«My understanding of Libertarianism is that it essentially means "Free Trade"»

Free Trade is a small part of Libertarianism: if you are free to do what you like (so long as you do not hurt others), then trade is just one of the many activities that you are free to do (or not to do, or to do differently).

But if your trade is truly free, then you cannot expect government to unconditionally protect whatever you do to trade, even more so to protect you for free! Some capitalists and self-defined "libertarians" forget that side of the equation.

In theory, democratic countries say "we don't try to tell people what they should believe", but many of them, including Australia, instead try to SELL people what they should believe - only a single-letter difference! Other regimes, and that is not any better, say: "you are free to believe whatever you like, so long as you DO as I tell you".

Allowing business people to lead the world is a great tragedy which creates much havoc. They may be very good at business, but it does not qualify them as wise leaders.

Yuyutsu-

What follows is my understanding of the landscape-

Some of what you are referring to seems to be Liberalism- which basically means freedom- although Libertarianism is sort of "Right Liberalism"- some times they refer to it as "Free Trade".

The other type of Liberalism is Left Liberalism or Free Society.

University of Notre Dame- Patrick Deneen explains it as above- but he may have dumbed it down for the ABC Audience in the Podcast.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/the-death-of-liberalism/9380788

John Locke (1660's) as you may be aware is considered the father of Liberalism but others such as John Stuart Mill in his book Liberty contributed to the Liberalism paradigm. JSM seemingly invented the concept of negative freedom- that you mentioned (freedom so long as you don't infringe on the freedom of others). Most people seem to only get to halfway of JSM's Liberty because he raises the issue that "everything affects everyone" and therefore negative freedom doesn't work and so there needs to be at least some aspect of Aristotle's positive virtue based freedom from Nicomachean Ethics.

Pretty much all politics from the Left and the Right are Liberal philosophies using the principle of negative freedom but the Left seems to focus on "individual social mobility" whereas the Right seems to focus on "wealth creation" along the lines of Adam Smith.

The US is based loosely on the principles of John Locke- I believe that Thomas Jefferson studied Locke. Locke presented a vision of "man living in nature" as his vision of freedom- free from the arbitrary constructs of society.

Traditionalists see these arbitrary constructs and positive virtue as valuable- and stand somewhat outside the Liberal construct that pervades "modern" politics- though they understand that within sandbox constraints they are useful tools.

Yuyutsu said- Allowing business people to lead the world is a great tragedy which creates much havoc. They may be very good at business, but it does not qualify them as wise leaders.

Answer- I might address this point more at a later time. Ayn Rand essentially believes the elevation of society that comes from letting the producers produce cures other evils. I would disagree- but I think if pushed Ayn Rand would disagree too.

CM,

This is an opinion forum, maybe you should try expressing your own opinions, instead of quoting the likes of Arsethrottle and Confusion along with a host of others, using what they say to put your argument across ad nauseam, don't you have anything interesting to say yourself. No ones interested to read your "cut and paste" jobs. Haven't you noticed no one ever replies.

Dear Canem Malum,

The differentiation between "Left" and "Right", today anyway, is essentially about economic management.

I do not have an economic theory because I never cared about it too much, so I bow out and leave that aspect of the discussion to those interested: I am only concerned about freedom, that which you call "negative", I know no other - almost...¹

More precisely, my concern is to avoid violence as much as I can, including by being part of a social body (i.e. a state) that violently takes away the freedom of others without their consent.

We can wish for many other things besides freedom, so many "nice to have"s, nothing wrong about them and while some of them can indirectly also help one to protect their [negative] freedom, calling these wishes [positive] "freedom" is a misuse of that word. It is misleading.

---
¹ I said "almost" because there is also the absolute final liberation from all limitations of Nature, not just from the impositions of other humans. Buddhism calls it "Enlightenment", Christianity calls it "Union with God" and Hinduism calls it "Moksha". Either way, this is when the spirit is no longer encumbered by the delusional identification with nature or any elements therein (such as a human body). But unlike "positive freedom", this Freedom is of the spirit and does not necessarily provide the liberated/enlightened human with any extra physical/social resources.

Jimmy Dore says both the left and the right are the same.
Both sides blame each other for what goes wrong and nothing ever changes.

U.S. Begs Russia To Boost Fertilizer & Grain Exports
http://youtu.be/DlOvzlIbMKA

Armchair Critic said- "Jimmy Dore says both the left and the right are the same."

Answer- Yes I agree with them somewhat- although there are Traditionalists within the so called Right most are "right liberals" or "free traders". Patrick Deneen says the same too.

Thanks for your perspective Yuyutsu.

Dear Canem Malum,

«Most people seem to only get to halfway of JSM's Liberty because he raises the issue that "everything affects everyone" and therefore negative freedom doesn't work»

Yes, this is exactly where reduction in population is required, as we discussed on the other thread.

Yuyutsu said-

Dear Canem Malum, «Most people seem to only get to halfway of JSM's Liberty because he raises the issue that "everything affects everyone" and therefore negative freedom doesn't work»

Yes, this is exactly where reduction in population is required, as we discussed on the other thread.

Answer- If we can agree that reduction in population is required then we have a chance of working together between cultures to create a safer world. Not jumping the gun- the details still need to be resolved as what that means. If the parties negotiate in good faith then hopefully things will work out.

The other thread-

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9828#335172

or

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9828#335110

On a slightly different topic the freeloader effect has recently been embodied in interesting ways in China's recent treatment of multilateral agreements- and perhaps indicates that agreements need to be geared in bilateral terms.

Why are people who commit heinous crimes being protected?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-22/man-tracks-attempted-honour-killing-victim/101174180

Is there any reason why the entire family in this case shouldn't be names and shamed?

"Police charged one of the 14-year-olds with a string of offences, including unlawful use of a motor vehicle, burglary, assault occasioning bodily harm, and property offences."

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/teenage-joyrider-dies-in-brisbane-hospital-another-still-critical-20220622-p5avmp.html

If the car was stolen, then why weren't all kids charged with unlawful use of a motor vehicle?

Armchair,
>Is there any reason why the entire family in this case shouldn't be names and shamed?
Sub judice.
Until the trial the details are withheld to avoid prejudicing the jury.

Hi AC,

I don't think naming and shaming is greatly effective in crime prevention, as the named really don't have any shame to start with. The commercial TV in Brisbane spends a lot of 6 o'clock news time highlighting these juvie criminal shock stories. Obviously they do it to boost rating as the public likes to be horrified in their lounge rooms.

There was a set too outside our place at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, of all times, a couple of days ago. Two motorbike riders, known to each other were racing in the busy street, so said a neighbour who was out the front at the time. There was a big bang and one lost it, seemed not hurt, but the bike was a mess. Next thing the two are into it, obviously blaming each other for what happened. My wife was on the phone, the one whose bike was totaled; "DON'T call the cops...Don't take a video". Well the cops were called but never turned up. Instead after about a half hour a towie was there and the smashed bike went on that. They were flash bikes, maybe they had just got them, the riders were in their 20's. Could have easily killed someone,but where were the coppers.