What does ANZAC Day mean to you? What are you remembering? For me its a 5 o'clock trip to the local Dawn Service, a mix of young and old, who I'm sure think differently from each other about the day. For me a time to remind myself of the futility of war, not that I should need greatly reminding of that fact, as useless wars are still taking place all over the globe today. Remembering ALL who scarified their lives, yes not just those who fought on our "good" side, but those who were the "enemy" then as well. Our 16 year old granddaughter and family will be around for dinner tonight, I must ask what she thinks of Anzac Day.

Anzac Day has always been a public expression of
gratitude and reflection that still resonates today
with both the young and the elderly. We can see that
from the thousands of people in Australia and New Zealand
who gather to pay their respects. The dawn ceremonies
are especially moving.

It's a time at which we reflect on the many different meanings
of war. And tomorrow let us all say a prayer for Ukraine and
her people.

I spent a few hours last night reading about The Second Battle of GAZA.
One of many battles with which my Great Grandfather took part in as a Lighthorseman.
In this battle he earned the Distinguished Service Order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Gaza

Major Dudley Wallace Arabin Smith, 1st Australian Light Horse Regt.

For conspicious gallantry in action during the second battle of GAZA on the 19th April, 1917. This squadron leader, commanding the vanguard of the advance guard of his Division, occupied BAIKET EL SANA. This position he held throughout the morning with his squadron under heavy fire. When the position was reinforced just before the enemy launched their determined counter attack this officer was placed in command of the left flank of the position. By his great coolness and daring he handled a most difficult situation when the enemy advanced through the crops to within 300 yards of the position and broke up the enemy attack.
Recommended for D.S.O.

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1562678

http://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1068798/document/5517397.PDF

At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
Lest we forget.

Thanks Foxy and AC

A moving local Dawn Service, despite the Brisbane rain, a small price to pay. Took particular note of those attending, many young folk and families, good to see.

What does the 16 year old granddaughter think of ANZAC Day; A time to remember what people did for Australia in the past. She can't understand why there are wars. Today she can't understand why the people in Ukrainian are having their homes destroyed for no reason. She is frighten that Russia could use atomic bombs. Thinks Australia should take as many refugees as possible. I recall the other uncle sayings things like;

My Granduncle Jim was at Gallipoli, not on the 25th, but later in June as a reinforcement. He lasted less than a week, when a piece of shrapnel hit him in the private parts. Seems that was a blessing in disguise, patched up he was sent to the Western Front where rather than put in the line, was transferred to the Messenger Unit, luckily he survived the war. Uncle survived to become a grumpy old man, who worked for about 50 in the box factory, making wooden fruit boxes.

Then there was Uncle Frank who "fought" in New Guinea, not with a gun but with a pair of scissors, he was a barber in Port Moresby. A very jolly chap he would say when torturing us kids with haircuts; "They also served, those who stood and cut"...he also claimed he once cut General MacArthur's hair ( the little fact that Gen MacArthur was never in NG, didn't seem to faze Uncle). His brother said; "Frank, they should have let you lose on the Japanese, you would have defeated them in a day with haircuts, but torture is against the Geneva Convention." I liked my old uncles.

ps Uncle also said; "Frank if you cut MacArthur's hair, he would have had you taken out the next morning and shot!"

My wife's contribution to the day. Said to post this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuYZRdlDKY4

Dear Paul,

Thank You for this thread and for sharing things with us.
And Thanks to Armchair Critic as well for sharing his
family story.
Your grand-daughter conveys a message that is clear
and insightful regarding war. Also Thank your wife for choosing
that video for us to see. Today is a time of rememberance
and reflection. Hearing "The Last Post" still gives me
goose-bumps. I always say a prayer.

Ukrainian are having their homes destroyed for no reason.
Paul1405,
I'd like you to sit down with your grand daughter & explain to her that that invasion as horrible as it is, is not happening for 'no reason'.
There is a reason, it's just that only the Russian Govt supports it.
Just because the Ukrainians & the rest of the World don't approve of it doesn't make it an incident for 'no reason'.

individual,

There is always a reason for evil to
try to triumph. Look at history and all the attempts
at empire building around the world. Most have eventually
failed. Lets hope this happens in the case of Russia
and the Ukraine.

The only ones here supporting Putin are members of Palmer's Party, and the Handson ding-bats are very quiet on the subject as well. Palmer has had candidates resign in protest at the lack of support for Putin.

Indy, the grand daughter was speaking of the senseless acts of war.

Dear Paul,

I just watched the Dawn Service at Gallipoli.
What an incredible experience. Very moving.
It gives one hope when a former enemy like Turkey
can take such good care of a Memorial for their
previous enemies. When we can all come together
in such a meaningful way - it gives one hope for
the future.

grand daughter was speaking of the senseless acts of war.
Paul1405,
There's nothing senseless about defending yourself but taunting someone until they hit out at you & then you cry senseless war is indeed senseless !
As usual it's always the people who had no say in the leading up to a confrontation who suffer the consequences.
That's why I believe in good, sensible un-indoctrinated education by sensible un-indoctrinated tutors whom the Left has banished from the classrooms several decades ago !
I wonder how much longer the World has to suffer before these anarchists acquire enough sense to stop bleating their insidious ideology !

Ignorance is an enemy even to its owner.
Knowledge is a friend even to its hater.

Foxy,
precisely !

I think this year's ANZAC day was underlined by the horrors we are witnessing in Ukraine.

It's a reminder that all war is terrible, whether it's in Ukraine, the Baltic States or the Middle East and it's always the innocent who suffer.

My parents were refugees who saw out the last part of WW2 as prisoners in forced labour camps in Germany and they taught me that war is the very worst thing that people can do to each other. There is absolutely nothing "glorious" about it.

For me it's also a time of sadness and some suppressed anger, knowing that politicians are always willing to sacrifice one generation on behalf of another and I'm yet to see one lead the troops into battle. Smedley Butler was brave enough to speak truthfully about it almost 90 years ago it but in the end, nothing has changed.

"I think this year's ANZAC day was underlined by the horrors we are witnessing in Ukraine."

Thanks rache, very true.

Unfortunately, there are many other wars in the world as well, where the innocent victims are suffering in silence, all but forgotten. The Ukrainians are "like us", and their land is of vital importance to the US and Europe in the geopolitical game, thus the nightly coverage on the 6 o'clock news, and the anger of people like Morrison and Biden.

It was the tee-vee camera, and not the gun that defeated the Americans in Vietnam. The scene of that young Cambodian (born in Vietnam) girl Phan Thi Kim Phuc, burnt naked from American napalm, running away in terror and pain, with the camera rolling. That few seconds of film, did more to defeat America than all the bombs the North could throw at them. It helped make patriotic Americans question, AND WE'RE THE GOOD GUYS!

"There's nothing senseless about defending yourself" I agree Indy, these folk and not defending themselves, but are non combatants the victims of war. My grand daughter is correct when she says that she can't understand why there are wars.

You then see fit to jump into some political diatribe about "lefties".

"That's why I (individual) believe in good, sensible un-indoctrinated education by sensible un-indoctrinated tutors whom the Left has banished from the classrooms several decades ago!" No, you believe in education by those who think like you, with very much a pro war stance.

Show me a war that Australia has been involved in that Conservative politicians, and their supporters like you, have not been gung-ho about from the outset. BTW; you have never explained why you never did militarism for Australia when up to the age of 35 you could have enlisted in the Australian Army. You must be another 'Pig Iron' Bob Menzies, all for war, but not willing to fight yourself, members of the 'White Feather Brigade'.

Paul1405,
Wars are not started by the defender, they're started by the antagonist. Anarchists are the antagonists. People such as yourself who taunt & taunt the society that feeds you.

all war is terrible, whether it's in Ukraine,
cache,
US & NATO will come down hard on Putin or so they've been saying since before the invasion of Ukraine.
Just give them another few Billion Dollars !

Dear Paul,

You may remember this offering from poet - Kevin Gilbert:

"Should tears be asked to change their form
Sobs to syncopate?
Why should the easy words of love
Be polished hard to hate?
Can hearts be asked to change their beat,
Distort love-truths for rhymes?
My subtle pen, for all its tricks
Must tell the truth sometimes
Forget the rules of poetry!
Byt the great stars above
I am ME, black opal!
Soft with lights of love."

While watching the moving dawn ceremony on television
filmed from Gallipoli - it hit home that if former enemies
can come together and unite in such a moving way - there is
still hope left on this planet of ours for love to triumph
over hatred.

Remember freedom is worth fighting for, or we will become slaves.

I hereby express an opposing point of view.
My opinion is that anzac day should cease.
I cannot see that it serves any useful purpose.
All the pomp and ceremony of dawn services is really just that: pomp and ceremony?
And it all glorifies war, which is not good.

Both world wars were a long time ago.
How long should we continue to 'remember' those who took part?
Just how far back in history need we go with our devotions?
And recent skirmishes: do we really need to dwell on them so much?
Having said that, I am profoundly grateful to the men and women who fight to protect us in any war.

They front up, and do what is necessary.
That, to me, is profoundly selfless of them.
I have known many who did not return.
I am saddened by the loss of those good men and women.
But that is a private matter.

I still see no need to remember them publicly, as is done on a yearly basis.
Continuing with a tradition, purely for tradition's sake, seems pointless.
Memories of those lost belong to their families and personal friends?
Not to the population at large?
So anzac services should cease forthwith?

Hi Ipso Fatso,

Australia is not the only country around the
world that has a national memorial day for its
fallen. Armistice Day, Rememberance Day is
also marked by countries like the UK, France,
Belgium, Netherlands, Norway, Germany to name
just a few.

I think it is important to honour those who made
the ultimate sacrifice for their countries.
Have you ever stood in silence and watched the sun rise at a
dawn service - in the cold? It is very powerful.
And it really sends a clear and insightful message to all
who attend. Some things are worth remembering if only to
try to ensure that they don't happen again.

Foxy,
When it comes to war poems I think Wilfred Owen's ironic "Dulce et Decorum Est" sums it up pretty well when it describes the reality of war versus the limits of patriotism and propaganda.

However Buffy Sainte-Marie's song "The Universal Soldier" puts responsibility for war on the individual, regardless of the demands of rulers.

In the end, war is simply about resources which translates as being about profit.
When there's a financial advantage elsewhere that's better than trade, things "happen". The businesses follow the money and the soldiers follow the flag.

I mentioned Smedley Butler earlier and in the end he saw his actions as a soldier being just a paid gangster doing work for businessmen. Although a bit dated, his original thesis still applies -
https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Is it really "sweet and fitting to die for one's country” or do they die for the bottom line on a balance sheet?.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1518708161846202368

Rache said- "war is simply about resources which translates as being about profit"

Answer- If war is about resources- it still doesn't necessarily imply it's about profit- it could be about survival.

Dear rache,

I remember the anthology I did at uni as part of
my English Lit. studies. I chose anti-war poems.
I still remember the one by Stephen Vincent Benet:

Oh, where are you coming from, soldier, gaunt soldier,
With weapons beyond any reach of my mind,
With weapons so deadly the world must grow older
And die in its tracks, if it does not turn kind?

It's even more relevant today.

In war, each side fights for a different reason?

The aggressor is hellbent on theft.
He wants what isn't his.
The catalyst for his war can simply be greed.

The Aggressed fights to prevent that theft.
His life and livelihood come under threat.
So he is fighting for his survival, and to retain his possessions.

The incentive for war comes from which side of the line you are on?

Ipso Fatso said- "In war, each side fights for a different reason? The aggressor is hellbent on theft. He wants what isn't his.
The catalyst for his war can simply be greed. The Aggressed fights to prevent that theft. His life and livelihood come under threat. So he is fighting for his survival, and to retain his possessions. The incentive for war comes from which side of the line you are on?"

Answer- I think Ipso Fatso is assuming that the aggressor and the aggressed can't be the same in/ out group. That both sides might be the aggressor. But at least he recognises perspective.

They used to say "it takes two to tango"- this seems to have been swept under the carpet as backward old thinking by those that have set themselves up as the star chamber of morals.

" Two men looked out from prison bars.
One saw the mud, the other saw stars."

(Dale Carnegie).

Foxy,
One crapped himself & the other was on drugs !

individual,

We're not talking about colonial times or the
Northern Territory incarceration of our Indigenous
People.

Dear Foxy,

No I think individual was talking about Morrison in the first instance and Albo in his university years in the second.

Dear Steele,

Can't argue with his logic.