In WW2 Germany pounded Stalingrad into rubble and then tried to take the city. The problem they then faced is that it was difficult to move vehicles through this rubble and made 1000s of perfect sniper nests which nullified all their previous advantages and gave the advantage to the defenders eventually costing the German army about 500 000 men.

In Mariupol, the Russians have committed massive resources with limited success over 4 weeks, and finally capturing the city will require door to door fighting against an entrenched and well-equipped and highly motivated force that will make the Russians pay heavily for every inch while the Ukrainian army is disrupting their supply lines from the north.

The massacre of innocent civilians by Russians in Bucha is likely to infuriate the Ukrainians and motivate the west to supply heavier weapons and more sanctions.

War results in death and destruction.
So all wars have that in common.
The details vary of course.
But there will be many similarities.
Mariupol could well be one such.

In any society there are many who resort to physical violence to settle difference.
This behaviour is instinctive, and part of our 'survival kit'.
It is usually a spontaneous reaction to perceived danger or disadvantage.
But a premeditated, and carefully thought out, attack on some one or some group, is not in this category.
It stems instead from a desire to harm people and take their goods from them.
War can be seen as theft on a grand scale?

We can only base our opinion on what we read.
If we do that, Russia is clearly the aggressor.
It is trying to use 'war' to take Ukraine away from Ukrainians.
It is attempting to steal by force.

I think the peoples of the world can no longer ignore what happens in other places.
To some extent we need to forget boundaries, and react as one to common problems.
The warming of our world, for example, can only contained by combined effort.

I think war is another common problem.
Countries should move against one of their number who disrupts orderly living?
It needs to be a combined effort to make this happen?
And must be done as peacefully as possible?
There can always be 'bullies', in positions of power, who will initiate hostility.
And these bullies must always meet a solid wall of resistance.

Is Mariupol becoming the Stalingrad for Russia?

The Soviet Union inflicted a catastropic defeat
on the Germany Army in and around Stalingrad
during WWII.

However in Mariupol - the military engagement is
still on going. Ukraine has not been defeated.
Of course Mariupol would be a strategic prize for
Russia. For Ukraine it is a symbol of resistance.

Losing Mariupol would be a potentially heavy
psychological blow that would dent Ukrainian morale.
We can only hope that Putin will be deposed by
internal sources sooner rather than later.

And if war comes to our shores, how do we resist/

Hi Issy, let us fight against war, and when successful war will not come to our shores.

Hi Foxy, the terrible loss of life and the utter destruction, how can anyone in their right mind justify war. I am appalled at the Ukrainians and Russians being killed in this bloody senseless war. It must stop now.

The Russian forces have bravely run away from Kyiv leaving behind not only hundreds of destroyed tanks and other vehicles and dead Russians but evidence of Russian brutal treatment of the civilians under their occupation. After the news of the Russians murdering civilians, the army in Mariupol is not going to surrender.

It is now becoming apparent that Russia's vehicles and munitions are being severely depleted and its standing army has suffered appalling losses all of which are difficult to replace. The question is whether Putin will go all in and declare a nationwide mobilisation. If he does his propaganda that all is going well will start to fall apart.

Paul,
And if not successful in stopping war, what do we do when it comes to our shores?

Paul,

That was a somewhat pointless post. No one wants this war other than Putin, and the only way that Putin is likely to stop the war is either if he occupies the whole of Ukraine or if his army is soundly defeated.

As for the justification, Russia has no justification whatsoever, however, given the extensive atrocities committed by the Russian forces, the Ukrainians are more than Justified in defending themselves.

As Putin has been clear on his ambition to not only occupy Ukraine but the Baltic states etc, my view is that

You cannot argue with a madman. Ukraine is only the first
step in Putin's goal to re-instate the USSR and rule Eastern
Europe. He's always stated openly that the collapse of
the USSR was a tragedy and should not have happened. To
him winning at all costs is his goal. For that reason -
Putin needs to be deposed - sooner rather than later.
It's the only way this war can be stopped.

continued..

My view is that if the Ukrainians backed with modern weapons inflict enough damage to Putin's army, it won't be in any condition to launch any more wars for a few decades.

shadowminister,

Fingers-crossed that you are right.

No takers on what we’d do if invaded ?
And remember we have no land borders for friendly nations to slip us some of the needful.

Is Mise- Nukes or Dirty Bombs are the only way for Australia to fight China as far as I can tell. But I agree with you that if war comes to you- you have to fight.

Machiavelli in The Prince from memory said that warfare is only delayed to the enemies advantage- the implication being that we shouldn't wait for it to come.

Sadly the reason that China can threaten is essentially from irresponsible population growth- Australia with more constrained responsible population growth is more vulnerable- in such a universe it seems that life is paradoxically doomed to destroy itself. The China situation indicates that a good nation that treats it's population well isn't necessarily a stable one. It's a Hollywood myth that bad things happen to bad people- Bromide politics- Brave New World.

Hopefully we can think our way out- rather than fight our way out- I don't like our chances- paraphrasing Thomas Wayne- "people fall down so they can get up". Maybe this too is procrastination.

Hi Issy,

When all peacful means fail, you take up arms and move to the next step of failure. As a pacifist I see war as the ultimate point of failure. War begins long before the first shot is fired.

Now a little hypo for you;

If you were a young bloke in the Russian Army today, Pr Issyski 3rd class, and you were ordered to invade Ukrainian and kill civilians with Gen Cmski's dirty bombs, what would you do, simply follow orders, or take some other course of action?

Paul,
Follow orders of course, because I’d be a thoroughly indoctrinated good little Russian soldier.

Dear Paul and Is Mise,

«If you were a young bloke in the Russian Army today, Pr Issyski 3rd class, and you were ordered to invade Ukrainian and kill civilians with Gen Cmski's dirty bombs, what would you do, simply follow orders, or take some other course of action?»

«Follow orders of course, because I’d be a thoroughly indoctrinated good little Russian soldier.»

We all like to believe that we would face such difficult tests better, and pray that we would should the need arise. I can only relate to what I actually did in similar circumstances, though I only give myself partial marks for it and wish I had the courage to do more at the time:

One thing I definitely DID NOT, was to allow myself to be indoctrinated as a good little soldier and while I obeyed orders out of fear, I never sided with these orders. My resolution, and fortunately I never had the opportunity to test my resolve, was that should I be ordered to shoot others, I would deliberately "miss" my targets and if no other option remained available then I would instead shoot back at my commanders. In effect, I did only the minimum, kept myself aback as best I could and so I managed to extract myself from combat role into kitchen duties - even an army has to eat... it then reached a point when they were shooting all around me, but I just remained alone in the kitchen tent and shakingly continued to wash the dishes.

As we were withdrawing in a long convoy, I was on the kitchen truck, kitchen equipment in the back and us three in the cabin. As we passed, on one side-window, the cook and the driver made dirty gestures to the local civilians while on other window, I blew them air-kisses.

There's little doubt which side Paul1405 is fighting on- when the war starts he should be interned at an appropriate location in the desert somewhere where he can't do any harm.

mhaze....
I think we all noticed errors like those you have pointed out so wisely.
Provided these errors don't degrade, seriously, the ideas and thrust of the article overall, readers tend to 'gloss' over such faults?
They 'read between the lines' as it were.
The same with spelling errors, and/or words missed out.
Articles I read in other places on line are rife with such 'omissions'.
Relatively well known journalists are prone to these failings.
Thank you for enumerating those you have drawn to our attention.

yuyutsu,
An army marches and fights on its stomach, you did well to keep the fighters fit and able to kill the enemy.

Some Russian soldiers just surrendered and others refusing orders of seniors just run them down. Russia lost five Captains in the confllict, some taken by Ukrainian snipers.

I think that you may mean Generals, they’d have lost lots of Captains.

Dear Is Mise,

There is no glory and no merit, on earth or in heaven, for doing anything, not even the otherwise most meritorious and worthwhile of endeavours, out of fear and compulsion.

yuyutsu,
And yet you contemplated murdering your Senior Officers and fellow citizens just because you didn’t want to fight; I’m getting the complete picture.

Issy, do you totally agree with the military strategist and commander Sun Tzu? Seems he never lost a battle.

Paul,
Though I’ve studied him, I don’t completely agree with him.
But then his time was probably 2,500 years ago so his writings cannot take account of modern warfare or modern thought.

Still some very interesting concepts.

Dear Is Mise,

«And yet you contemplated murdering your Senior Officers»

No, I didn't think there would be any around, only junior officers and only those who would obstruct my escape route.

«and fellow citizens»

And while the former was speculation, this suggestion is an entire fabrication.

«just because you didn’t want to fight; I’m getting the complete picture.»

The complete picture is that politicians on both sides instruct their minions to grab all 18-year old children (or in some countries, only those of them whose parents cannot afford to pay a hefty ransom), forcibly if needed, give them guns and command them to kill the ones opposite.

Killing the minions is relatively not as bad as killing the innocent children opposite who are just like me.

Obviously if I could get away without killing anyone, then that would be the best and that's indeed what I managed to do, through the kitchen.

yuyutsu ,
Your officers were your fellow citizens.
Obviously you condone murder if it is to your advantage and being a cook is a very important part of the overall efficiency of any army, so you did your bit to help kill your country’s enemies.
You can do as much self-delusion as you like but it won’t alter the fact that you contributed to the killing.

Dear Is Mise,

«Your officers were your fellow citizens.»

In the army, "citizen" denotes a free person, and "citizenship" denotes the life after once freed from the army. Although one is a citizen on paper, one's biggest dream is to become a citizen truly.

Technical citizenship is a very weak and irrelevant link - I had more in common with my fellows the children on the other side than with my tormentors.

On your other question, I never denied that Mea Culpa.
The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
How longer do you still want to torment my conscience?
Would you also like me to kneel down and take my pants off so you can strike my bottom?
- Because I think you must be enjoying it!

Of course I’m enjoying it and I’ll get even more enjoyment when you tell us what you propose to do about not living in a country that allows conscription.
You said in a previous thread that you could not live in a country that allowed conscription, well Australia allows conscription;.

Ball’s in your court.

I have no further need to discuss anything with sadists.

Good for you Yuyutsu. I must admit to having less curiosity about your cooking or Is mise's personality than I have about the status of the Ukranian military. Given that it now appears that genocide is the policy of the invading Russian army, my hope is that the Ukranians will soon find themselves in possession of sufficient military hardware to expel the murdering fascists.

The curiosity of olo posters I do have is whether Bronwyn and Mox still believe Putin's propaganda? Even in media controlled Russia many are becoming aware of the atrocities being committed in Ukraine.

yuyutsu,

Hoist on your own peterd, well that’s not really an act of war.

Dear Fester,

SLAVA UKRAINI!

Keep telling you this whole this was engineered by the United States

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-cias-destabilization-program-undermining-and-nazifying-ukraine-since-1953-covert-support-of-neo-nazi-entities/5502473

There has not been a war since 1776 that the United States has not had a hand in. Why should Ukraine be any different.

You might use the same reasoning to blame the USA for WWII, but that could be a hard sell. Putin seems intent on a large scale attack, so it will end quickly. The deliberate murder of tens of thousands of civilians beats the USA by a long margin.

Fester,

The United States killed or permanently injured up to 400,000 civilians with chemical weapons during the Vietnam War. Have you forgotten that?

American use of chemical weapons in Vietnam, also resulted in 2,000,000 people suffering from illnesses caused by exposure, and half a million babies born with birth defects. The United States are up there with the worse of them.

The USA was not fighting to take away the land from the Vietnamese as Russia is doing to Ukraine.

"The USA was not fighting to take away the land from the Vietnamese"

Jose', was that their justification for killing millions? Give me the BS and tell me what they were fighting for?

My brother-in-law served two years in Vietnam, and they were not shooting civillians or using chemicals on civillians. Agent Orange was a deforestation chemical to expose Vietcong hideouts in the forests.

Josephus,

The US Senate subcommittee estimated the number of civilian
casualitires because of the war including deaths. The numbers
ran in the millions. Ever heard of the My Lai massacre?

As for Agent Orange. The Red Cross estimates 3 million
Vietnamese have been affected by Agent Orange including at
least 150,000 children born with serious birth defects.

We have friends who also served in Vietnam. One of which
received compensation from his exposure to Agent Orange.
He ended up dying from srious health problems.

A company of American soldiers brutally killed most of the people—women, children and old men—in the village of My Lai on March 16, 1968. More than 500 people were slaughtered in the My Lai massacre, including young girls and women who were raped and mutilated before being killed.

"The USA was not fighting to take away the land from the Vietnamese"

Sure Jose' the Vietnamese were not the Native Americans, Hawaiians or the Inuit people.

The Americans used Napalm against civilians in Vietnam.

The My Lai massacre was a War crime and recognised as such and platoon leader William Calley, was given the full blame for the entire My Lai Massacre.Ultimately, a U.S. Army helicopter pilot named Hugh Thompson Jr. put an end to the killings. After helplessly watching the carnage from above and attempting to rescue the wounded, he landed his helicopter directly in the line of fire, all but daring his brothers in arms to shoot through him if they were going to keep the slaughter going.

It was not official USA policy to injure civillians as it is Putins policy to rape and murder or remove 100,000 Ukrainians from their homes to Syberia. 10,000 children are missing from Ukraine believed to have been taken to Russia.

Josephus,

What a load of bollocks.

http://bbc.com/news/world-asia-23427726

Foxy, I recognise you stand by Russia is justified to massacre citizens because your claim USA also massacred citizens from an unspecified journalist claim that it was common practise by USA.

Josephus,

Actually you seem to not understand much of anything.

I think the difference is that the US military, as a servant of US citizens, has to answer to them and represent their values. Consequently it seeks to maintain high ethical standards and answers for its conduct.

Putin's military needs only answer to Putin and represents his values. Hence chemical weapons, rape, murder, and destruction of civilian infrastructure constitutes the modus operandi of the Russian military and pervades its command structure. The Russian military routinely denies its criminal conduct, and Russian citizens, if they are able to get any gruesome truths, are either jailed or killed if they raise concerns.

Military intervention is always clumsy and brutal in my opinion, but it is clear that the conduct of the Russian military is no different from the Nazis. They need to be defeated and thrown out of Ukraine.

Fester,

Hear, hear!

It is so sad Foxy. I had naively hoped that the horrors of the conflict would quickly prompt its end, but ordinary Russians wield no power.