I have a new debit card, the second in 6 months. Why, because I had to used my car on line for the second time, acquiring medical supplies, denied to me by our government, from India. These companies do not accept PayPal. To say I will never forgive the current government, or the opposition in lockstep with them, in denying us our choice in medication, is putting it mildly.

I have a new A/C with debit card for internet payments which will always have nothing to take, & is only for grocery shopping.

However to my current frustration. I have a number of monthly & annual repeating expenses, which the companies claim payment having first offered me the chance to cancel. I have been contacting these companies to give them the new card number. All I ask is a human with an Australian accent on the other end of the phone line, but getting past the computer answering thing is almost impossible with many.

I have now changed the insurance provider of my shopping trolley, who's computer virtually demanded I use their web site. The wait time was between 32 & 52 minutes if I wanted a human. I am having this frustration because I put my card details on line, & most definitely will never do it again.

I am about to change my internet provider as their system is so opaque it is brick wall like, & if you wait the 23 minutes you get an Indian accent so thick that it is impossible to decipher through my tinnitus.

When they make it so hard to give them money, imagine how impossible it would be to get any service with a problem.

My new internet provider will be the company who recently advised their call center is in Australia, & I am looking for other companies who don't demand I do business with a computer, via the net.

I reckon there is a killing to be made by companies who go back to having a lady on their phone switch, & enough staff to take calls quickly.

What is the actual problem Hassy, you want to buy drugs from India, but someone won't let you, why not try to get your drugs direct from Columbia.

And you want a sweet little Aussie dolly bird to answer the phone when you ring. Good oh.

Hasbeen,
The Govt really should work on getting things back to these shores. The real problem however, are Australians so greedy that Govt is literally forced to out-source overseas. Unrealistic high wage & salary costs in return for insanity-laden bureaucracy & super greedy share holders are the cause.
A national Service scheme would reverse the greed trend a great deal as it would gradually introduce a society mentality based on less greed.

I have never had any problems with online shopping, cards - anything. Use only sites with the padlock symbol, and within Australia only.

My internet provider is moving its call centre offshore to gawd-knows-where, but I could not understand the locals any way: people with Australian accents do not seem to want to work in call centres.

If I want to contact them, I always do so by email, and request 'no phone calls please, I am deaf', which I am, but anyone could do same.

The worst offender with cards in my circle is Telstra. Telstra offer the most reliable technical service for remote areas, but the most abysmal administrative service.

Their administrative staff have a combined IQ of between ten and twenty; exacerbated with language difficulties.

When my payments disappear, as they too often do, I find it much easier to deal with the bank. The bank have a much more sophisticated administration.
Following the money trail of lost payments always stops at the bank, and I can usually convince them to stump up for the loss, which I consider to be a nice part of their service.

Dan

It must be internet/phone companies Dan. I had little problem with the tech side of Westnet, before they were bought by iiNet, but the admin of both of them has always been dreadful.

Hasbeen

The other innovation I’ve been driven into by successive disasters, ie hacking and straight forward theft of funds, is the need to abandon credit cards entirely and replace them with debit cards.
After failing to convince the bank of the need to reduce over the top credit limits, I gave them up in frustration.
But I think you indicated that you have done that too. That’s an essential innovation.

I also had trouble with pay pal, but they were effective in remedying the rare problems.

The broken camels back prompting me to abandon credit cards, was the result of giving the card numbers to an overseas supplier of music.

During that final of all transactions, I was plundered for the cost of two plane tickets from Los Angeles to London which took six weeks for the fraudulent transaction to be refunded from the bank.

Don’t feel alone on this one.

Dan

Hasbeen.

This is an aside to topic, but I post this link for comment since you’ve mentioned in the past flying experience.

This video involves two Russian mig jets performing an indefinite vertical stall at ground level.

Worth watching. I’d be interested in your comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Cgxy7N-V0

Dan

Diver Dan : I believe you will find that it's computer graphics and that the video is from a remote control flight simulator on a home computer.

diver dan,
I cannot believe you believe this to be real footage although there is footage out there of real planes doing that.

We prefer not to do online banking.

We've been scammed in the past - people
claiming to be from Telstra are the worst.
We prefer face-to-face contact when shopping
or "click and collect."

And we definitely don't deal with overseas
purchases.

I was forced overseas Foxy, by our wonderful government effectively outlawing the most successful treatment for covid, Ivermectin, & the Ziverdo kits the the Indian province of Uttar Pradesh used to effectively wipe the virus out of it's 220 million population. Indian pharmaceutical companies don't accept PayPal. Dan it was my debit card that was hacked twice, each time I used it on the net. I tried a separate A/C with the same bank, but they would not, [said they couldn't] totally separate the A/Cs. Finally have an eftpos A/C with another bank, into which I only transfer money when required.

No Dan, not possible, even with the latest computer control. There is a section of the remote control aircraft flying population who actually specialise in flying that way, but they do it with models with extremely large control surfaces, & large slow revving propeller power giving sufficient prop wash over those control surfaces.

A jet would have to have swiveling nozzles to be able to even take off vertically. This was never achieved, even with Harrier technology, which required multiple outlets to effect control.

Dear Hassie,

Seems like you know what you're doing and have things
under control rather well.

Take care.

Individual.

Ah ha…but it all point to “ Liebestod” me thinks. A song sung over dead bodies…

Dan

One of the reasons we pay so much more for drugs here than overseas is due to our "Free Trade Agreement" with the USA.

One of the conditions of that deal was to extend the Pharmaceutical patent length of various suppliers by a number of years and guarantee the USA sole distribution rights, making it illegal to import certain drugs.

Another strange example was the USA/Canada trade deal that guaranteed USA the ability to compete with the local Canadian postal service. However the local service was so cheap and efficient that the USA companies couldn't compete effectively. As a result the Canadians had to raise the cost of their own service in order for the Americans to be able to undercut them.

due to our "Free Trade Agreement"
rache,
Which means the massive crowd of manipulating middlemen/women/others who maggot off the blood, sweat & tears of third World workers including children.
They import cheap & sell to us at immorally inflated prices. Their Taxes here help fund the largely non-productive middle class.
This symbiosis is the core of just about all our problems in our society ! This is most likely one of the key reasons for no local enterprise which would reduce the profit margin but would really benefit our economy !
These manipulators don't give a damn about our society fracturing left, right & centre.
That's why a National Service is desperately needed to save some human decency !

Despite the romantic fantasies, compulsory National Service is no solution to existing social problems in the 21st century.

Nowadays young people who choose to maximise their potential may go to University but will come out with a huge debt before they can even consider home ownership or start a family and are hugely disadvantaged, unlike the previous generations.

Forcing disaffected youth with limited hope for the future into involuntary service while putting their lives on hold, training them to kill with their bare hands and then turning them back out onto the streets?

rache.

I agree with your view on where Australian society is in reality, at this point in time.
And the last thing young Australians need, is to be fodder for another losing American war; especially another totally unnecessary European war.

My position on OLO has always been to identify the arrogance and disconnect of views from the over comfortable: All too often, old plonkers living out their twilight years under a gum tree.

Dan.

Hi rache,

As long as our friend keeps calling for a National Service for young people, that's my grandchildren, I'm going to keep calling for a Seniors National Service, because that includes our friend. He is unclear on what he would have young people doing, sometimes it only non-military activity, other times its the opposite. I'm clear on what participants in my SNS would be doing, breaking rocks for five bob a day! Gotta laugh.

compulsory National Service is no solution to existing social problems in the 21st century.

rache,
What do you base this assertion on when there hasn't been a National Service for 50 years ?
Look at countries that do have this service & look at their young people & compare them with the ones here.
The drug addiction problem is one good indicator & general mentality another ! They all have one thing in common, people who strive to build their society not ruin it !
Also, are you so affected by drugs that you can't distinguish between a National Service & a military service ?
I sincerely hope you're part of an extremely small minority.

Indy,

My granddaughter, now 16, has ambitions to one day travel and study overseas, particularly in Japan. She has dreams that some Old Fart like you would destroy given your vindictiveness towards young people, the "drug addicted" you refer to. Fortunately your national service is just another brain fart, that will never come to anything. On the other hand my Seniors National Service, where YOU will be out there breaking rocks has great potential!

the "drug addicted" you refer to
Paul1405,
May I suggest you Google Drug addiction in order of % in the World.
Tell your grand daughter not to worry about responsible old farts but be extremely wary of the ones like her insipid grandfather who helped create the progressive regress in our society !
The one who has no clue what the terms "work, responsibility, harmony, respect & integrity allude to !

My Pravastatin and Cartia tablet addiction doesn't prevent me from seeing past the fact that national service equals military service as soon as conflict breaks out.

National Service has always been available for those interested but compulsory military national service is known as Conscription, which is what you are promoting.

I'm also yet to see any statistics about comparative youth crime and drug addiction rates between countries with such schemes and I doubt that forcing people into service against their will be of social benefit, no matter how good that makes you feel.

forcing people into service against their will be of social benefit,
rache,
I don't see any benefit in forcing taxpayers to waste their contributions against their will on drug abusers & other useless !
I do see huge benefits in reducing the number of drug abusers & hoodlums by not having them roaming the streets & stealing & causing costly damage etc. How ? Being asleep in a camp or dormitory they can't do that & that'd save much of our Tax Dollars.
I suppose you don't see any benefits in that ?

In Vietnam, most of the conscripts were zonked out on illicit drugs, trying to forget the terrible unjust war they were in. On their return conscripts were denied medical treatment for their physical and mental illnesses, many became social misfits, dependent on a life of welfare.

Individual, why when you had the opportunity, you did not enlist, to serve your new found country. You could have enlisted up to the age of 35. We'd stuff you in a cannon, for cannon fodder! Think of the glory.

Why can't our Old Farts buy drugs on 'Pay Pal' direct from Columbia. After all they will tell you they are Sovereign Citizens, with inalienable rights to be zonked out whenever thy choose to be, and that's often.

The sadism expressed by some members on this thread knows no bounds.
Who ever imagined that senior members of the Australian community might advocate for kidnapping all 18-year old children from their parents' homes, then locking these innocent souls up for no other crime than being born, then torture them including by commanding them to act contrary to their conscience.

Such is the mind of Mr. Putin, but if Australians also think this way, then we are in no better shape the Russia. Actually in such case we might as well invite China to take over.

Suppose that sinister plan was to come to fruition, then immediately every youth with half a brain or more, would leave Australia before they turn 18, take up studies in foreign universities and likely find their partner and career there as well, never to return to this bloody place.

Following this brain-drain, the only young to remain here would be the handicapped that would be exempt from service on medical grounds, and no-good low-life drug-addicted idiots who would fill up military prisons, tent-cities stretching to the horizon, for a wide range of disciplinary infringements.

kidnapping all 18-year old children from their parents' homes, then locking these innocent souls up for no other crime than being born,
Yuyutsu,
Ever heard of pulling your weight ? 18 year old children ? Are you for real ? 18 year olds are not children ! They're young adults who, without guidance into life end up being of no use to society & themselves ! And, no 18 year old is innocent !
I just hope you're not a parent !
Tell me, do you go & see Foxy on weekends & read warm'n fozzy poems to Paul1405 & SteeleRedux & convince yourselves of your invaluable contribution to society ?

I don't know what national service and drugs have to do with Hasbeen's online shopping problems, but national service is not popular, and it is unlikely to ever be so.

The 18 year old males-only conscription ceased in 1959 because the army didn't have the personnel and funds that had to be diverted from operational matters; neither did they want to be bothered trying to train people who didn't want to be trained but who were pressganged. It would have been akin to trying to herd cats.

I imagine the attitude of the ADF would be the same today. I have never seen or heard the military brass calling for conscription.

My personal attitude is - I never had to do it, thankfully, and I do not expect anyone else to do it. In time of war, maybe, but given the changes in the type of modern warfare and weaponry, even since the Vietnam war, it is doubtful that unwilling and unprofessional warriors would be anything but a hindrance. And assumptions that conscription will 'build character' and 'straighten out' young people is a load of bullshite. Resentment and more hatred of authority is more likely.

We need to concentrate on the best people and the best equipment to defend our country, not wasting money and resources on the misguided belief that our defence forces exist to 'make men (or women)' out of young ratbags - the very worst sort you want behind a gun.

An I really the only one who realises that individual's idea is civil conscription, not military. It is not a bad idea.

Most kids go off to uni, or some other training with very little idea of what they are doing, or want to do. I went off to uni with my GMH scholarship to study mechanical engineering with no real idea of where it would lead. On my one day a week at the Pagewood factory I was assigned to a team designing door locks & handles. Essential stuff, but not exactly riveting for a 17 year old.

In my second year I was moved up to designing inner door pressings & tools. I ran away to sea, joining the navy to be trained as a pilot. When I came back I finished my engineering, as it was too much trouble & far too expensive in those days when you paid for your education, to start all over again.

When I started motor racing, I was taught to build racing engines by an amateur, a tax accountant in his day job, another trapped by his early training choice.

I don't think it would do any of todays kids any harm to spend a year clearing excess fire fuel, or rubber vine & prickly acacia from national parks. Say 6 months planning & logistics, & 6 months pick & shovel would give them an idea of the world from other than a school desk.

Any petals who think they are too good to get their hands dirty are certainly not worth wasting tens of thousands on putting through some pretend uni course such as Womens or Media studies, so they can get a job pen pushing in some totally useless government office.

ttbn,
It is not about war for crying out loud ! It's about ability to be trained for capability or vice versa.
The ability to develop a mentality of one for all & all for one. Developing a sense of responsibility & harmony in your society and, when done so as early as possible people will be more considerate instead of when not exposed to such guidance.
If one has to accept that one's efforts are to be shared with others then one must also be entitled to get a share from the efforts of others. Is that such an incomprehensible idea ?
If I'm paying taxes all my life than I expect dividends for my contributions in my old age.
A National Service scheme could take on apprenticeship training etc., sort of a more serious TAFE that could gradually offer small business & employment opportunities. Would it not be wiser to have basic trained people than Centrelink frequent flyer points ?

ttbn,
Are you feeling OK? You've just written something I entirely agree with!

_______________________________________________________________________

Hasbeen,
>Most kids go off to uni, or some other training with very little idea of what they are doing, or want to do

Assuming for the sake of argument that this is true, you still run into some obvious problems:
Firstly, what about the minority who have decided what they want to do?
Secondly, what about those who, despite not yet knowing what they want to do, have already narrowed it down by identifying some things they definitely don't want to do?

>Any petals who think they are too good to get their hands dirty are certainly not worth wasting
>tens of thousands on putting through some pretend uni course such as Womens or Media studies,
>so they can get a job pen pushing in some totally useless government office.

You seem to be imagining it's a form of snobbery, but I think it's far more likely that they're simply not suited to that form of work. The idea that it's anything to do with how good they think they are is profoundly unAustralian.

And the courses you mention are not pretend at all. AIUI Media Studies is useful for increasing the effectiveness of communication. And Womens Studies helps to understand, and hence address, the problems that limit the participation of women in the workforce. I'd expect most graduates of those programs to work in marketing and HR respectively, mostly in the private sector, but I can see how they'd be useful in the public sector too.

Individual

So you want all this because you paid taxes. You have exposed yourself as a socialist, wanting the government to assume the responsibilities of parents - the people who should have instilled into their children the values you demand. Up to now, I thought that you wanted less political interference in people's lives, not more.

Do you really think that a political class that is too timid to introduce working for the dole - no work, no money - is going to introduce something as draconian as conscription, civil or military? Voters simply would not stand for their little darlings being made to do something they don't wish to do.

You are two generations too late to be talking guff about conscription, national service, or whatever you want to call it. It's all downhill from here. The world we have known is on the way out, and the people you think should be rounded up and forced to do what you think they should do, do not exist; nor do the people who would make them do what you want.

Of course, you might be around long enough to see socialism with 'Chinese characteristics' putting your theories into action.

«Any petals who think they are too good to get their hands dirty are certainly not worth wasting...»

This is not socialism - it is Machoism, including the idea that men must be rough, hardened and never cry - the very ideology of twin-petal Vladimir Putin.

While humans could adopt that attitude from their ape ancestors, ideas that were designed to suit survival in the very different world of 1-3 million years ago, fortunately very few Australians still subscribe to these primitive ideas.

people you think should be rounded up and forced to do what you think they should do, do not exist;
ttbn,
Are you suggesting Centrelink & unemployment benefits are not provided to people who choose not to be serious about seeking employment, the people I'm suggesting should be engaged ?
I did not say I expect Govt to parent them, I expect Govt to provide the opportunities for people to find employment or at least get them ready for employment asap. We are already swamped with 'educated' people who aren't competent enough to be gainfully employed because bureaucrats just as incompetent fail to provide the economic & social environment that goes with a supposedly fairly equal opportunity society.
A National Service is not as prison-like as you et al attempt to portray it as. A National Service is a gateway to a healthier mentality for young people than what many of the present useless & incompetent elders are cursed with.
A national Service is where young people can socialise without having to run the gauntlet of people of their parents' age stalking & exploiting them to part with their money !
Real socialising not the kind where they have to rely on advertising telling them they're having a good time !
I would like to see young people more socially & mentally apt than you & many posters here, myself included !

Asked the granddaughter tonight what she thought of finishing school next year, when she will turn 18 in 2024. Instead of going to collage, she can go to enforced "boot camp". No tripping off to Japan to broaden her arisen, experiencing culture and diversity, oh no, its bully beef and baked beans in the Individuals compulsory national service for you! She asked; "What would I be doing?".....I said; "Breaking rocks".

Indy, I don't think my granddaughter thinks much of your national service idea. She called you a CRETIN, she said to tell you, "GET A LIFE!" She's reading what I've written........ No my darling I can't write that, I'll be banned from the Forum,..... no that's not a good thing!

Paul1405,
Once your poor (by you) misguided granddaughter realises that I have never suggested that gainfully employed young people should have a gap year National Service experience she'll agree with my proposal, provided she has more sense than you which shouldn't be hard to achieve.
My proposal is for unemployed, homeless & those wishing to join the Public Service !
I'm not holding my breath waiting for you et al to get the gist !

Paul, as ridiculously out of touch as Individual is, even he isn't proposing breaking rocks!

_____________________________________________________________

Individual, do you understand what opportunity is?
Government should indeedbe providing opportunities, But forcing young people to do what the government wants them to do instead of what they want to do isn't creating opportunities, it's DESTROYING opportunities.

And you seriously think that being stuck where you don't want to be, with people you don't want to be with, counts as real socialising?

Hi Aidan,

The "breaking rocks" was a witticism, but then again given Indy's morbid dislike of public servants he may well demand any one wishing to join break rocks to get in. I want the homeless in homes, I want the unemployed, employed, not stigmatised and victimised, as they would be with this nonsense.

So Indy those wishing to be police officers, nurses, paramedics, fire officers, army personnel etc, would be doing your NATIONAL SERVICE, after all they are all PUBLIC SERVICE positions.

How about you spell out some details, the where's and what's of your idea. Instead of the vindictive nonsense directed towards those you dislike.

Paul1405 & Aidan,
I don't believe it's possible for you to ever to get the gist of National Service but should you ever accidentally come somewhere near it, you'll find that it's not at about "Govt wants you to do" !
It's to offer young people a first step towards being better people than you could ever hope to be !
Get rewarded for their efforts, be respected by others & look forward to the future, unlike your miserable just being there at others' expense !

Paul,
The trouble with your witticisms is they invariably lack wit. And in the case of the "breaking rocks" one it was detracting from the point you were trying to make. It was a lazy stereotype, quite similar to the usual idiots claiming the Greens want to stop mining iron ore.

___________________________________________________________________________

Individual,
National service is BY DEFINITION about "Govt wants you to do" !

National service is BY DEFINITION about "Govt wants you to do" !
Aidan,
Only in your mind ! Ask people who care !

individual,

You are flogging a dead horse. You are on a hiding to nothing. Conscription is anathema to the Australian population. What do you mean by "better people" who would be turned out by some totalitarian national service scheme?

How many generations do you have contact with?

I have two middle-aged daughters; two grandchildren in their mid-30s, and a batch a bunch of teenage great grandchildren. And, their 'values' are not the same as mine. I don't who the people who "care" that you want people to ask are, but it is the up and coming generations that YOU should be asking how they feel.

Values are established by the age of 5. These values come from parents. Nothing, including some compulsory kibbutz-like imposition will change that. Life changes with each generation. We have had our turn. Now, new generations must sink or swim on their own; and, soon enough, they will be moaning about young people.

These values come from parents.
ttbn,
Good, you're getting close to see where the problems are & why a National Service is needed desperately !
That great & perfect society we're now was created by the parents of today's young people.
Young people deserve better than perpetuating their selfish parents' poor & regressive mentality.
Some young actually show an improved mentality in comparison to their parents.
Mark my words, there will be a National Service scheme before the present young become grandparents !

Individual,
>Only in your mind !
No, not only in my mind, but also in the minds of many others.
But if we are wrong, why are you merely contradicting me rather than explaining exactly why I am wrong and what the correct definition is?

>Ask people who care !
What do you think it means to care?

It looks very much to me like you're trying to impose your uncaring vision on the younger generation because of your unshakable delusion that it would solve society's problems and somehow make them better people. Fortunately most of the population regard your ideas as lunatic fringe.

Society is far from perfect, but what you propose would be nothing more than an impediment to fixing it.

Aidan,
It's very clear to me that you've been reared by very selfish people surrounding you hence your inability to see decency in a few for the good of many. Pity really !

Hi Aidan,

This idea of a National Service is put forward without any attached information as to how it would operate. I did ask for detail, but Indy is vague on content.

My granddaughter selfishly wants to direct her own life, and not be dictated to by a government scheme or anyone else. She did ask me; "What would I be doing?" In reality I can't say, Indy has never provided detail. Flippantly I said "I don't know, breaking rocks."

Aidan, how would you have answered that question, given your granddaughter is by now incensed with the whole idea.

Individual,
It may be clear to you that pink elephants are getting in the way of everyone else seeing what you regard as obvious, but to the rest of us there's a more rational explanation.

If it's clear to you that I was reared by very selfish people, that is because you are deluded - and I rather resent the aspersions that you're casting on my parents!

And while your writing clarity leaves a lot to be desired, I'm pretty sure my "inability to see decency in a few for the good of many" is also a product of your imagination.

Attack is not the best defence, though I suppose your resorting to it is understandable when a proper logical defence would expose the flaws in your reasoning and assumptions.

_____________________________________________

Paul,
Indy did mention weed control.

Paul,
Sorry, just checked and found you're right - it was Hasbeen, not Indy, who mentioned weed control.

Hi Aidan,

Wahine, is doing very well, now in Year 11 studying for the HSC, also doing a course in Sports Medicine once a week. A very good athlete, gym and training several times a week, plus study, she has been picked in a number of rep teams, has a full book. I said next year would you try for school captain, all girls Catholic school, said; "Probably, but I would rather be sports captain." I asked why Japan, and she gave a very detailed and mature answer.

Weed control, Jesus, that make breaking rocks positively appealing.

The unfortunate who don't come from a cultural background are missing out on thinking ahead !
Foresight is also in the lacking department !

That's meaningless drivel, Indiy, since everyone has a cultural background even if it isn't recognised.
Many of us think ahead. You don't seem to understand that foresight doesn't mean what you see when you're wearing blinkers!

____________________________________________________________________

Paul,
In answer to your earlier question, I suppose the thing to do would have been to turn it around, and ask her what it would have to involve to be worth doing.

(Not that I'd expect it to get a positive response, of course)

everyone has a cultural background
Aidan,
That's another debate but I'll leave it till someone starts a thread on it !

A funny story, a bit closer to the topic. One morning in 2009 I went down to my 98 year old mothers granny flat, separated from my home by a carport. She had a habit of turning on a radiator in the sitting room to warm the place when she first got up, then turning on the air conditioner when the place got too hot.

I usually went down early, turned things off, opened a couple of windows, & made her some cereal & a cup of tea.

This morning she was talking quite crabbily to someone on the phone. The conversation seemed strange, so I asked her for the phone. She handed it to me, complaining the silly girl wouldn't listen to a thing she said.

Little wonder, she was arguing with a computer, which wanted her to press buttons to get to the right department. Our first home phone was a nicely polished wooden box on the wall. You wound a handle, which caused a light at the town switch to light, & a nice young lady would ask you what number you wanted to be connected to. Little wonder mum did not expect a black box to talk to her.

Hasbeen,
Yeah, our brilliant devoid of foresight scientists developing all this technology rave on about AI (artificial intelligence) but in reality a huge component of their efforts resulted in AS (artificial stupidity) such as the computers your poor old Mum was caught up with.
There really is nothing "intelligent" about the automated customer service in Telstra for example or any of the Govt "Hotlines" that only infuriate people & wastes their time.

Hassy,

Having a nicely polished wooden box on the wall, is preferable to being in a a nicely polished wooden box on the floor.

Yes Paul, I'll pay that one.

Only someone who had an empty or a miserable life, who had nothing and no one dear, doesn't mind being torn away from all they had before and sent away in the company of strangers and their strange ways.

Apparently such people don't mind forcing the same on others, including those who do have a life.

Shall we look into Putin's childhood?

http://acestoohigh.com/2022/03/02/how-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all/

Yuyutsu

You’ve gotta stop this. Over the years, I’ve given you more credit than most for a brain, but on this subject your lost.

They all practice the art learned over the course of more than a thousand years, to sack, plunder and rape.
You should be thankful the slave markets have closed down or there’d be a glut of Ukrainians ATM.

This is the simple question to ask for clarity; who has the greater right to install a puppet ruler, the US or Russia?
There it’s as simple as that: Now sleep tight, it’ll all work itself out as it has over the past thousand years.

Dan

Dear Dan,

«You’ve gotta stop this.»

Sorry, but that was not clear enough:
What is "this" that I am supposed to stop?

The Ukraine atrocities? For sure if I can.
Computer takeover? Yes, I am passionate about stopping it.
Or otherwise, I await your clarification.

You also asked: "who has the greater right to install a puppet ruler, the US or Russia?", and clearly nobody has such a right, but perhaps I may understand your question better once you clarify your first statement.

BTW, my last post did not stand by itself but was connected to my earlier posts, thus its subject was not Vladimir Putin in person, but rather someone else on this forum whose attitudes towards others are remarkably similar.

Yuyutsu

I’ve been around you for a long time on OLO. You are one of the more sensitive poor souls here, which is balancing: But you did reference Putin’s childhood into your passivisic (my conjugation), argument against conscription.

I didn’t get the impression from individuals post he was advocating for collective violence; it was more an idea to improve our society by introducing youth regimentation with national service: which as the name implies, serving our communities in a positive way; something akin to Boy Scouts in uniform. There is merit in his suggestion. So I was following your posts.

My exasperated response “You’ve got a stop this Yuyutsu“ was directed to your pacifist dogmatism.
You’ve got to stop this, means (I think), you need to take an a look at aggression in a more positive light.

The idea of National service is to capture natural youthful aggression and channel it into positive directions of character building, for our societies sake. It has merit.

Putin’s youthful captives, shown as captives by Ukrainian forces, crying on video is not unusual in battle. There is seldom anything to laugh at! Those Russian boys will learn from their transgression from the macho in the moment.
National service tends to do that too, but in a controlled manner. It’s a good character building discovery for our youth.

The uncomfortable truth of life is that we delude ourselves into believing our ability to control our own environment. We are all captive to the system. There is always somebody above us in rank, pulling the strings and making us dance to off tune music.

National service serves as a medium for our youth to learn the art of taking orders passively. That’s my idea of passive aggressive as an art form; a good reliable worker follows orders, it must be learned!

Enough for now.

Dan.

DD, my x-father-in-law was in the Hitler Youth. It also was presented as being like the Boy Scouts, lots of fun, until they stuck a rifle in his hands around 1945, and told him to shoot Russians, not so much fun, that's when he took off like shot.

Dear Dan,

«But you did reference Putin’s childhood into your passivisic (my conjugation), argument against conscription.»

I was just wondering, how can anyone be so cruel, so insensitive without even being aware of it. Putin is presently a well-known example.

Perhaps you question the degree of cruelty and insensitivity in the act of conscription, but I have no such questions because I am a victim of it myself. It is my deepest wish, which I would be happy to die for, that no one else will ever again have to experience that.

«I didn’t get the impression from individuals post he was advocating for collective violence»

Possibly he is so thick-skinned that he does not realise the violence and the suffering of those affected, but then reading of the reports from Bucha, some don't even get the violence of pulling people's tongues out.

«it was more an idea to improve our society by introducing youth regimentation»

There is a tradition telling that when a stranger came to the Biblical city of Sodom, he was put in a given bed. If he was too tall, his legs were shortened. If he was too short, his limbs were stretched to fit.

This is how I read "regimentation".

You have read your Bible, so surely you know that God was not too happy with that state of affairs.

«My exasperated response “You’ve got a stop this Yuyutsu“ was directed to your pacifist dogmatism.»

A pacifist dogmatist tries to stop others from fighting (sometimes even using violence themselves for that non-violence purpose). I am not like that. While it is not in my own nature, I will not stop those whose natural propensities are to fight from fighting, so long as they do so honourably.

«you need to take an a look at aggression in a more positive light.»

You mean clapping and cheering the Russian soldiers as they march in to torture and rape civilians?

[continued...]

[...continued]

«The idea of National service is to capture natural youthful aggression and channel it into positive directions of character building.»

While breaking the spirits of those who have no aggression to begin with or whose aggression has already been directed into useful projects, who are happy, cheerful, positive, friendly, polite, productive and devout, whose character is already built or in the process of being built in their present positive environment? By violently tearing them away from good company and forcing them to live and rot in the company of riff-raff instead?

«Those Russian boys will learn from their transgression from the macho in the moment.»

Transgression? They didn't even know where they were taken!

«We are all captive to the system. There is always somebody above us in rank, pulling the strings and making us dance to off tune music.»

Have you forgotten that One who is always above all ranks and all tyrants, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, whose Justice always prevails?

"Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
...
He upholds the cause of the oppressed and gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets prisoners free,
the Lord gives sight to the blind, the Lord lifts up those who are bowed down, the Lord loves the righteous.
The Lord watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked."
[Psalm 146:3-4,7-9]

Yuyutsu

To clarify my statement referencing Russian Boys.

Here is a reality. All boys, Hitler included if you will, begin life from their Mothers womb.

*… The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun, says the Preacher…*

Why do we ascribe right and wrong to any particular action? You are not a fatalist Yuyutsu. Why do you consider your views as anymore worthwhile than those of others?

Dan.

Dear Dan,

«All boys, Hitler included if you will, begin life from their Mothers womb.»

Thank you for clarifying.

«Why do we ascribe right and wrong to any particular action?»

That's called being human...

I would need to provide at least two different answers to your question, one for believers another for those who don't.

For believers:

Certain actions are beloved of God, thus attract His blessings, so we call them "right". Other actions are hated by God, thus attract His rage, so we call them "wrong".

For advanced believers:

Certain actions help to purify our hearts and minds, making them more ready to accept God, so we call them "right". Other actions contaminate our hearts and minds, thus draw us away from God, so we call them "wrong".

For non-believers:

We humans, with the exception of the wisest, are too attached to strong preferences, liking this, hating that. As a result, our joys are short-lived and instead we suffer when our preferences are not met.

A Saint, a holy man, the Wise, or however else you like to call him, doesn't do so, but accepts everything equally as God's gift¹ - shine or rain, illness or health, pleasure or pain, fame or ill-fame, etc.: that makes them always happy and never suffer.

So since the majority of us are not saints and depend on particular conditions for our happiness, and since the conditions we experience depend on our former actions, we call those actions "right" which are likely to maximise favourable conditions for as many people and we call those actions "wrong" that would maximise unfavourable conditions and suffering.

«Why do you consider your views as anymore worthwhile than those of others?»

Only because I was fortunate to have had relatively more opportunity and time than most others to study and contemplate.

---

¹ Note that this does not speak of God's existence or anything similar which a non-believer cannot accept, but only of the mental attitude taken by the wise/holy man.

Yuyutsu

«All boys, Hitler included if you will, begin life from their Mothers womb“

Further meaning:

All boys are boys, irrespective of who’s side of the fence they belong..
That’s the real equality view!

Extension of that meaning:

All boys feel the same pain when shot. It ain’t nice!

Conclusion:

Our Government which raises rainbow flags through all its institutions, is incorrect to pick sides between the US viz Ukraine, (which is wrong in this instance), and Russia, IMO.

Russia simply wants the return of its natural territory. Afterall, isn’t our government hell bent on giving the entirety of Australia back to the Aboriginals, and that with a “sorry” as a prefix?

(And frankly, with your preaching on these pages over the years, I’m astonished that you choose any side in this issue Yuyutsu)!

Dan.

Dear Dan,

«All boys feel the same pain when shot. It ain’t nice!»

Not at all. No two boys and no two shots are the same.
Besides, when they die, some go to hell others go to heaven, surely not the same pain, right?

«(And frankly, with your preaching on these pages over the years, I’m astonished that you choose any side in this issue Yuyutsu)!»

Do I want Australia to be bombed, destroyed, enslaved, run over by a dictatorship?

I don't, and therefore I should be thankful to God that we are not in the front line, that Ukrainians are suffering the brunt of the Russian-Chinese attacks rather than us. Should Ukraine fall, next goes Taiwan, possibly also Japan, but next it is us, Australia. We should not only pray that the war is stopped in its tracks in Ukraine, before China sees Russia winning and concludes that it could also win from a brutal war, but also actively help Ukrainians to win in whatever way we can - even though most casualties are currently in Ukraine, this war is no less ours than theirs!

Yuyutsu

Seems your in a state of panic from a perceived threat of invasion from China.
They’ll be no resistance from Australia, since it’s a fore gone conclusion from past observations, our Political establishment will sell the Country for a tidy sum and move themselves off shore: Evidence, the method they will use is right in front of our eyes in the Solomon Islands.

The most important purchase is the influence of Politicians. It’s painfully obvious that battle is pretty well complete; just some mopping up to do.

Also seems to me, this state of panic is a conclusion you have drawn from what is a trade war which our politicians picked.
Suddenly, there is a similar sense of panic among them that their greed has a sting in both ends.

But, if your lucky, as the new Empire swallows up the South Pacific (probably without a shot being fired), you will find a comfort zone of sorts, living along the creek and river banks once inhabited by Aboriginals who were similarly swallowed up by the expanding British Empire, (now defunct).

How history repeats!

Dan.

Dear Dan,

I have faith that evil will eventually be stopped.

The question is just the number of casualties and whether it be stopped on the shores of the Dnieper, or of the Torres Strait. I prefer the former and that is what to good signs indicate - but we must also give our hand to the brave defenders on the front.