Australia has an immediate need for 200,000 skilled workers (conservative estimate) in the trades (tradies). For far too long Australian employers and governments have neglected basic skills training through the apprenticeship system. The trades were always the poor relation when it came to the development of skilled workers. Australia preferred to focus on university and collage qualifications, which are also important, but should not be to the detriment of the practical trades, they to are vital in any workforce for national development. A heavy reliance on skilled immigrants as an easier and cheaper way of obtaining tradespeople is no longer viable on its own. Covid and restricted immigration has shown that to be true.

The Morrison government announced yesterday $365 million to support an extra 35,000 trade apprenticeships, is welcome news. A lot more is needed if Australia is going to have any chance of meeting its future needs for skilled trade workers through the home grown apprenticeship system, combined with some skilled migration.

Again, blaming Govt for what unions & their greedy members have created !

Indy, you have never experienced gainful employment in your life, so say yourself, still living off government welfare. To simply spout your philosophical ignorance about unions is typical. In my 20 years working directly in manufacturing industry I can say it was the unions that insisted apprentices be employed and trained, when many employers were against such things.

Dear paul1450,

I have a Vietnamese friend who came out as a refugee. He is a trained doctor but has worked night shift in a meat production and packaging plant for 8 years as a labourer in Australia.

I caught up with him a few weeks ago. His brother in law is coming out with his family as a skilled migrant. In Vietnam he is an engineer in a factory producing tech items.

He is coming out to take up a abattoir worker position in FNQ. His skills? 6 weeks training at the migration firm's "school" and a certificate. The cost to him and his family for the entire package is over $200,000 Australian dollars.

So what is in it for him? A virtually assured pathway to Australian citizenship.

What is in it for the company in Australia? They get a tied and very compliant worker for 5 years. They also enjoy lower taxes because they do not have to contribute to the education of the worker that they would if he were Australian.

The return to skilled migration rates will of course drive up unemployment in Australia and keep wages growth stagnant. As Mathias Cormann said low wage growth is a 'deliberate design feature of our economic architecture'.

It really is a scam perpetrated by the likes of Gina to the detriment of many ordinary Australians.

individual,
It was not the workers and unionists that shut Cockatoo Island Dockyard but the Labor Government in Canberra. They canceled the lease on the island thus effectively shutting the company down; and put 4,800 people out of work and killed one of the country’s finest apprentice training programmes.
The tenders were open for the building of the Collins class submarines and Cockatoo were specifically banned from tendering even though the Company was world renowned for its work on submarines and had successfully repaired and maintained Australia’s subs for decades.
Submarine repair was transferred to Western Australia as a boost to Kim Beasleys electoral chances.

it was always the unions that caused disruption & loss of jobs just to pander to their greedy & mostly unproductive members who rode on the blue collar workers' backs.
The blue collar workers hardly ever received wages reflecting their effort. The white collar crowd who became the middle class courtesy of unions gained the most for the least effort.
Even now during the pandemic & devastating floods, some are already vying for salary increases. What they should go for are salary reduction to make workers wages more equal.

Hi Issy,

There hasn't been a Labor government in Canberra since Gough got the chop in 75. We've only had impersonators.

Hi Steele,

In more than 20 years of working in manufacturing I found many of the reffos some of the best skilled workers one could meet. Germans, Greeks, Italians and Eastern Europeans, good blokes who knew their trade, even if they didn't know English all that well.

Nothing wrong with the majority of post war migrants to Australia, hard working battlers, looking for a better life for their families and themselves, that was the vast majority, as it is for the majority of refugees today.

Dear Indy, you are so wide of the mark, its obvious you have no experience of work since you arrived in Aussie in 68. Standing in line at 'Centerstink' to have a bitch about your aged welfare payment cannot be classified as work! Nor can sitting in Gods Waiting Room, with schooner in hand, bashing the butts on the latest linked jackpot machine be considered work as well! What do you classify gainful employment to be? Centrestink, or Gods Waiting Room.

Not all strikes are caused by the workers.
It was not uncommon at the dockyard to be told, confidentially, by someone on the staff that we’d be “on the grass” today or tomorrow.
The Company got two days extra on a contract for every day lost by industrial stoppages, so, when there was a definite hold up looming on parts supply or a favoured contractor was behind with needed work, then one of the foremen would get his orders and would start to upset a worker who was likely to fly off the handle.
The worker, always in a submarine would be moved from a job that he’d just settled down on (and getting settled often meant crawling into a very cramped space abd having the necessary tools handed to you etc.)
Just settled in and along would come the foreman and shift him to a new job. Ditto, repeato.
Worker tells the foreman what to do to himself.
Foreman has the worker sacked for profane and unseemly language.
Worker goes to his Union rep, meeting called.
On strike till the man is reinstated; next day or the one following, all parties appear before the Commissioner who rules (as always) “…normal dockside language” orders reinstatement and back to work tomorrow.
Workers lose three or four days pay, company catches up and gets a bonus six or eight days on the contract.
All mates again and a bit of overtime, everyones happy—-till the next time.

Why use local workers when we can import them already trained from overseas and at cheaper rates while also starving TAFE of funding?
Why hire (and train) full-time workers when you can have a casualised workforce?
Why manufacture locally when you can do it off-shore and increase profit?

That's not the fault of unions but of greedy employers backed up by government. Even large corporations prefer to keep their money off-shore to minimise tax which then shifts the tax burden to others and studies have shown that the cut in penalty rates for hospitality workers failed to produce more jobs "as intended".(surprise, surprise).

Paul1405 - the greatest period of economic growth in our history was the post-WW2 period which relied on the influx of immigrant workers. It was a period when workers were well-paid and the economy boomed due to their increased spending.

Issy, I always knew you were a "comrade in arms" - Garden Island a stronghold of unionism in Sydney, back in the day.

I never liked Bob Hawke, he was a sellout and a show pony, did the workers no favours. Keating, was little better, been a professional politician all his life, knows nothing else.

rache; "the greatest period of economic growth in our history was the post-WW2 period", agree, but it was also a period of lost opportunity, when the conservative Menzies government allowed multi-nationals to dictate their own terms for investment in Australia.

"the greatest period of economic growth in our history was the post-WW2 period"
Paul1405,
Yes, due yo mainly European migrant work ethics !

That was true for 99% of migrants. There there were the 1% who got the cash, house and a well paid cushy job. In no time they were on government welfare for life, these days most of that 1% are on old aged welfare, bleating about the failure of government to shout them schooners down at God's Waiting Room.

Paul,
Funny you should mention Bob Hawke, he was the main sell-out over Cockatoo Island and we’ve always blamed him for the rest of the Union movement not only not openly supporting the workers on the Island but for also ignoring the strike.
The Government wanted to sell Cockatoo Island for development and a large kickback to the favoured few, the Union organizers got the local tribe involved and Aboriginal Title stymied that little racket.
Many of the men never worked at their trades again, age was against them and they were not familiar with modern production methods, the shipyard, dealing as it did in very heavy industry used different methods to modern industry in general.
As an example we inspectors sometimes used wooden callipers to measure large diametres ; callipers 6 feet and more in length.
In all my years at the dockyard the vast majority of stoppages could have been avoided if the management hadn’t been intent on causing trouble.

For evidence of an imported (skilled) workforce , one only needs to look at the Snowy Mountains Hydro Electric Scheme, many of those individuals employed on that project were very skilled back in their mother country.

O sung wu,
Nice to hear from you.
I remember as a youth on the NSWGovt. Rlys. the migrants coming as workers.
Among those allocated to Enfield Locomotive Depot was a skilled surgeon, he was sent as a shed labourer but when the unofficial interpreter (ex-pow) had a yarn to him he went to the District Loco. Engineer who moved the migrant to an office job and unofficial assistant to the first aid bloke.

Hi there IS MISE...

Yes, we weren't very skilled at identifying well qualified individuals to professionally enrich our workforce back in the day? There again, nothing's changed much? When I was still working a colleague of mine who harboured a fascinating and expert competency in rebirthing methods of stolen M/V saw an invitation in the 'US Police Chief Magazine' for qualified police to attend an advanced investigative seminar in the United States specifically addressing the topic of rebirthing.

Yup, he applied, was knocked back because his brain dead boss didn't want him to possess superior knowledge to him. But to conceal the real reason, and, to appear like he was giving him a true 'junket' he instead sent him on a vehicular homicide seminar. Which had virtually no practical application in his duties in Scientific Branch. Go figure?

Issy and o sung wu, funny you should say that, my old doctor for 35 years, now dead, was a surgeon from Hungary, worked on the Snowy Mountains Scheme, until he could do "night school" and become a GP here.

Great old bloke, told me how he operated on German soldiers near the end of the war, and for some the end of their life, on his own, as a 2nd year trainee with a cleaner for a nurse. Said he learned quick in those days.

Just on Hawke, Uncle Jim was a Postal Workers Union official, told the story how in his words "Hawke came in on the grouter" and sold the postal workers out, after a 6 week strike they had reach an amicable agreement, and were ready to settle. Hawke took over at the death, and that was the end of that, the workers got nothing, Hawke got all the glory.

The place is full of highly skilled in doing nothing useful for very handsome salaries & hundreds of thousands who do their mundane but important work like clockwork but they don't get recognised with awards & wages that are merely a fraction of the pay of the afore-mentioned salary earners.
Salaries need to come down so wages become more competitive. Remuneration must more closely reflect performance & merit.
Being tattooed & adorned with nose-rings like cattle & useful for nothing is not what our tax Dollars should be wasted on !

Paul1405

My experience of those days was that immigrants were more motivated and tended to work harder than the locals plus their cultures were more family oriented and cooperative - helping each other to succeed.

That usually resulted in them owning homes faster than the locals and thereby earning a level of distrust and resentment from the locals through jealousy. It was the same for each wave of Asian immigrants that followed. Welfare was likely more attractive to existing citizens.

Back in the early seventies I knew a German immigrant who was previously a Professor of Mathematics at a German University but now worked here as a steelworker. All record of his qualifications and supporting documentation were destroyed during the war. When I suggested he attend the local University and try to have his status restored he said he had to feed his family and financially could not afford that option. I found it disappointing but he was simply happy to be here and have a second chance at life.

Hi rache,

Spot on, there was a lot of jealousy among Anglo Australians towards migrants in the 1960's that I can recall. The cry of "The wogs have got all the houses" was common. Southern European migrants were willing to take any job, and work hard to build a better life for themselves and their families, and many succeeded. Today Australia is a far more prosperous country thanks to post war immigration.

rache,,
I knew a PhD who actually was a Doctor of Philosophy and he worked as a welder.
He was a very proficient welder and was usually employed on jobs that had to be perfect, such as large pressure vessels and the like.
I asked him once what philosophy had taught him and he replied that it had taught him to be happy as a welder; he really was happy welding and said that it gave him great personal satisfaction to be doing useful work.

This is not a hard equation.

Less migration has led to more Australians in work and until a short while ago a halt in the slide of stagnant wages.

To return to the levels of pre-pandemic immigration will be a return to higher unemployment and depressed wages.

Why aren't we having that conversation? Even the ABC is touting a return to high immigration levels.

The idea that it fuels economic growth therefore lower unemployment should be denounced largely as a myth. It demonstrably doesn't as the last few years has shown.

We know wages haven't kept up with the cost of living expenses. Instead of prompting businesses to return wages to just compensation and to be paying the kind of tax amounts that would better fund upskilling of Australians we are hearing the clarion call for supercharging immigration once again.

prompting businesses to return wages to just compensation ..
SteeleRedux,
That's the stalemate we're experiencing now ! Very poor educational standards equal very poor mentality & poorly trained people not capable of performing satisfactorily to warrant employing them !

There were many New Australians employed on the Hydro Scheme, often in a manual capacity, who in their home countries were professional men and women (trained Nurses/Midwives) who because of their lack of english or national origins were destined to, metaphorically speaking, swing a pick & shovel until their real skills emerged.

A small Coffee Shoppe where I had my mandatory two doses of morning caffeine, together with a glance through the Oz Newspaper was managed by an Egyptian Bloke and his wife. He was a Veterinary Surgeon and she a Chartered Accountant (Chartered in the UK).

I always have & still wonder about the real reason overseas qualifications aren't recognised here despite their quite often overwhelming expertise & professionalism to the ones here.
Professional jealousy ?

Ok, try this one for size; Called several engineering shops to ask for a small 500 mm long steel plate with 5 holes (15mm). Every one of these "Engineering" shops advised "we can only sell you the flat bar by a metre & you'll need to get the holes done at the laser shop.
I must be getting old because when I worked in engineering shops we simply took a flat bar, cut off 500 mm & drilled the holes. Job done !
I was told that I'd need to arrange for a courier to take the plate from the engineering shops to the Laser cutters ?
Can anyone see why things are not good anymore ? Soon, when you take your car for service you'll hire a qualified driver to take your car to a servo to pump up the tyres after the service is done.
Talk about skilled workers, does anyone think imported workers would be so stupid ?

More fear of competition by powerful organisations I would think individual.

The Snowy employment of migrants raised some annoyance in the bush out that way o sung wu. The income achieved by those migrants was much higher than most skilled or unskilled labour in the bush, & the locals could not get a look in at those jobs.

I'll tell you where our skilled workers are today Paul, they are doing the better paid unskilled work available. A highly skilled mechanic mate of mine recently tried to get out of the workshop of the large trucking company he had been with for a while, & into the drivers seat of one of their trucks. When he was told he was too valuable in the workshop, his suggestion they should pay him at least the same money they paid drivers was rejected he quit. He is now driving for a new company, on better money.

When a tradesman gets paid way less than a semi skilled wharf laborer, why the hell would our kids bother with an apprenticeship, & the low money for 4 years, if there was no pay off at the finish.

I suggest you blame the Arbitration Commission for the problem, & the power of the unions. Both have caused huge discrepancies in the pay rates for most of Australia, causing the shortage of trades people. I guess supply & demand will ultimately fix this, but it is going to get worse before it improves.

We should be training our own people not going overseas for skills. There is a crisis in youth unemployment in many locations. Managerialism as Burnham said is a big part of the problem- you need a piece of paper for everything- rather than learning on the job.

The claimed skills shortage is an excuse to replace British Australian's- both major parties want to do they for their own reasons for cultural nihilism and for lower wages. At least there are some Traditionalists within the Coalition Liberal Nationals. The claim that Australian's won't buy Australian companies is an excuse to sell to foreigners- but the real reason is because they want a higher price and they believe they can achieve this by manipulating the market

Indy, you don't know much; You asked for flat bar, 500 mm long, no width, no thickness, black or gal, hole centres, edge distance. Back in the day, if you were a good bloke, that would be a "foreign order" job. In your case I'd get it done for you, by the first year apprentice.

BTW, do you want the Sharpe edges taken off?

Yuppy Uni certificating has hijacked common sense which was the foundation for all directions of life chosen.
Insufficient Intellect smothered intelligence by sheer numbers & so, the decline of Western society was set for snow-balling & this opened the welcome gates for corruption. The major part of corruption was the ever lowering standard of education which resulted in incompetence & under-performance to such a degree that out-sourcing was the only option to maintain some sort of economy !
Now, we're copping the frivolous mentality of those in charge over the years since the Goaf who set the stage for all the nonsense.

Dar Hasbeen,

The TWU is indeed one of the most powerful unions going around and have secured their members half way decent wages.

Are you suggesting they should be brought back to the mechanics level so blokes like your mate aren't tempted to leave or should the mechanics seek affiliation with a strong union to ensure they get paid decently?

Why is this the fault of the unions?

Why is this the fault of the unions?
SteeleRedux,
Because they pushed wages above the productivity level. They demanded that some workers had to be paid more than they brought in to cover the cost of their employment. Unions did a very valuable job in the early days but once decent pays were established they didn't stop demanding more.
Unions can't comprehend that if worker gets paid more than what they employer can sell the goods/services for then you arrive at imbalance. Then, as wages rise, prices rise, then wages must rise again & so on.
The only way to achieve a balance that makes local enterprise competitive is to freeze/reduce salaries of people that cost more to keep on the payroll than what they provide in return for the employer. After all, the workers wouldn't accept to have to pay more than they earn either !

I suggest we should have a system that rewards those with the skill & training, rather than those who can or are willing to do the most financial damage to their employer. Obviously no mechanic, no running trucks for drivers to drive.

Drivers can be trained cheaply & quickly, Truck mechanics take long apprenticeships, plus years on the job training, & should be suitably rewarded.

In your favored system it is the bullies that do best

I recall a couple of years ago when a Queensland company was charging around $5,000 each to train people to drive those huge mining trucks with the aim of them getting jobs in Western Australia.

However when they finished their course and applied for those jobs the mining company told them they would be hiring drivers from overseas because they could pay them a lower rate.

Likewise those overseas phone call centres in Mumbai and the Phillipines have displaced local workers for the same reason. A Telstra employee who was responsible for paying those accounts told me in order for outsourcing to be viable the overseas wages cost needs to be at less than 50 percent of the local rate and those overseas phone operators are generally ex-university students.

How is it possible to compete with that sort of wage difference?

.. most financial damage to their employer.
Hasbeen,
That's the one thing I fail to understand the unions mentality when they call strikes. They always punish the workers with loss of income for a few Dollars wage increase instead of causing less profit for those employers who can afford a little more.d to pay. Many small businesses can't afford more but they could if Govt were to reduce permit fees & other over-the-top charges.
Look at Rego in for example. Or Council rates etc. Strike by not paying them instead of preventing workers from earning a wage. It's not as if we didn't pay excessive tax on everything we have to buy.
Reward those who provide goods & services we all need instead of those who have nothing but a certificate from some University & no other skill nor ability to benefit society !

Indy,

Get rid of old age welfare for the totally non productive, and introduce a productive Seniors National Service. Save $25 billion in payments to start with. There are plenty of people 70 and over capable of breaking rocks! What are you like on a sledge hammer?

Paul1405,
Just because you're incapable of pulling your weight you now expect those who paid for your upbringing to do what you should be engaged in ?
I'll never forgive the Goaf for building the nest that breeds the likes of you !

individual,
When I was last in Britain it still had dinosaur unions, wanting to be paid according to the damage they could do rather than the productivity they could bring. And I've heard it said that many Australian unions were like that before the accord.

But I'm puzzled as to why you think they're still like that. Wasn't the BLF our last true dinosaur union? Dare to struggle, dare to win, but eventually they lost everything - and it was a Labor government that forced them to disband!

Since the early '90s the emphasis has been very much on productivity improvements, and that higher pay is the reward for delivering those improvements. Australia is a high pay, high productivity country. Our businesses are, in general, highly profitable. We shouldn't resort to protectionism to save the ones that aren't, and nor should we resort to failing to pay good wages.

If ever we become uncompetitive as a nation, the markets will adjust the value of our dollar down until we are competitive again. But there's little danger of that at the moment. Yes, some businesses will fail because of high costs,, but that's necessary to make room for more.

Hi there Individual...

Do you recall what the unions 'proudly' did during the war in South Vietnam - They wouldn't load the supply Ship, HMAS Jeparit that was scheduled to convey parcels of food, gifts and other personal mail to the diggers fighting in Country?

For every honest and virtuous member of a union, there are those among them who would seek to cause industrial mayhem, fear and enmity amongst the rank and file. It's for this reason, some unions possess too much industrial muscle, accordingly, they can never be trusted.

Wasn't the BLF our last true dinosaur union?
Aidan,
These terrorists are out of the picture now but we have a very selfish Public Service union denying this nation's coffers to be refilled. Already they're on about pay rises right in the middle of the great difficulties of the pandemic, fires & floods.
Yes, aged care needs more funding but not for higher pay, for more people working in that sector.
I can't help thinking that senior bureaucrat salaries are simply excessive in the extreme & should be reduced & have the lower wage earners get a little more & it would be their spending power that would boost the local economy because they'd spend their money here instead of spending it on frivolous overseas holidays & overseas goods etc. as is the habit of the generous Govt superannuation recipients.

o sung wu,
When that happened I didn't understand English & probably wasn't even in the country or only just.
I remember when the Goaf (a portmanteau word as you'd have gathered by now) wormed his way in by abolishing the one opportunity to retain discipline, respect & general decency among future generations.
We're now experiencing his & his outfit's legacy !
The unions would have had to play a part in this but I'd like someone to tell us if this was or wasn't the case.
Those pro "Democracy" minorities who are not happy with majority vote are a direct result of these policies !

Hi there INDIVIDUAL...I understand my friend, anyhow it was all such a long time ago now. And beside, these old memories are best left forgotten, and should be consigned to history otherwise far too much enmity is left unresolved or remains in doubt.

521 Australians died needlessly, along with millions of Vietnamese, Americans and others, in a bloody unjust war, is there such a thing as a just war, I know of none. History has not judged the aggressors in Vietnam kindly. To remember is to learn from such mistakes, to forget is to relive those mistakes.

521 Australians died needlessly,
Paul1405,
Considering that they were sacrificed so that undeserving drug abusing no-hopers & characters such as yourself can now live in comfort & security without any personal effort whatsoever which are a result of others dying for us, then yes, their lives were wasted.
I'm thankful that there are others with a sense of compassion & appreciate the sufferings & efforts of those who built what this ungrateful crowd now condemns because of some misguided brainwashed ideology.

Ideology indoctrinated people don't give it a second thought that they live in comfort today by what past peoples' efforts have created.
Today's efforts will be the base of the future. Think what's in store when you observe the goings-on now !
By all means, those who call themselves Australian, go & spend your money overseas but don't be surprised at the contents of the coffers when you decide to return with all your money spent & not having contributed while you were away !
The people who filled the coffers in the past are now dying off from old age & there aren't many to take their place ! You can only sell so much to China before they've bought everything you have to sell.
Your skills won't be worth anything if you based them on ideology !

On ABC TV right now, this bloke was waffling on about wages not going up despite an increase in demand for workers ??
Why on Earth should wages go up just because there are more jobs available ??
It's this idiocy from the unions that ruins everything economy related !

individual: "Ideology indoctrinated people don't give it a second thought that they live in comfort today by what past peoples' efforts have created. "

With this kind of statement and similar others you've made previously it seems that you are under the delusion that the wealth of our society is the mostly the result of the present retired generation. This is utter rubbish!

The reality is that the standard of living and the level of the country's infrastructure development that we currently have is mainly the result of those CURRENTLY working. And its been then way at any given point of time for a very long time.

This is because the population expands exponentially, the economy expands exponentially, science and technology increases exponentially and productivity per hour of human input increases exponentially. And when you combine this with the fact that typically the most productive years for a member of society is between the mid twenty's to their early fifties*. The result is that the contribution to society by those are have retired is *relatively* rapidly diminishing. Ie., the older a retired cohort of the population is the less of the percentage of the current wealth of the country they have created.

A perfect example of this is buildings: the majority of the population of Australia lives in buildings built (or extensively renovated) by people who are not elderly retirees but by younger folk.

Another example is the very computing device that you a reading this post on: the majority of the technology and engineering behind it is mostly the result of those still currently working.

-- continued below --

-- from above--

I challenge you, look around where you are and take note of the percentage of stuff that still exists that has been made by the elderly. There is usually not much to be found. Even things like roads in older suburbs don't qualify- because any existing old road would have has been redesigned/reshaped/resurfaced many times by now.

For myself, I retired at 40 and haven't produced anything for about 7 years now**. And with every passing year the things I've done become less and less relevant and their impact is rapidly diminishing. Many things have even disappeared completely and have been replaced by new stuff.

In short, elderly people who've been out of the workforce for a while, eg. most of those who regularly comment here, have contributed comparatively little to the current wealth of society. The current working generation owes very little to these people!

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*:Typically, it takes about 25 years for some to become a major contributor then it peaks in their 40's and then they become less useful due to ageing. By the time people are 65 and retiring their productivity is no where near what their maximum potential was (or could have been in the right circumstances).
**:I'm a still an active investor though- so this contributing to the economy but not directly by producing physical goods/services.

Wages go up when employers are competing for the available employees, It's just the old supply-and-demand rule.

The real reason the government always tries to keep a pool of around 4% unemployed is in order to keep wages down and the main reason for our reduced wage growth over the years is because the unions have been weakened and prevented from representing workers in many areas.
Productivity and profits have not been fairly shared.

Also, some people are reluctant to sell their labour too cheaply. For example the recent cuts in penalty rates for workers in the hospitality industry failed to create more jobs in that area (surprise surprise!) and it seems many are no longer prepared to be "the working poor".

'Pig Iron' Bob, the founder of the LIBERAL PARTY, believed 10% unemployed was an acceptable number to keep workers under control. The old bastard also believed "the working woman" was an untapped cheap labour resource to exploit, that would boost profits and suppress wages. He also believed migrants were nothing more than "factory fodder" to be used for the purpose of exploitation.

I see nothing has changed with the LIBERAL PARTY, suppress wagers, exploit women and bring in cheap labour.

Pauliar,

I suppose you have some proof of this? I believe you are just lying and making up stuff again. The pedogreens are the ones trying to put everyone out of work.

Historical facts shonky, historical facts, just like its a fact Julius Caesar tried to invade Britain. All I say about the NAZI admirer 'Pig Iron' Bob, founder of the LIBERAL PARTY is true. There are several publications you can read that verify those facts, but not your regular Murdoch Gutter Press.

The conundrum of the individual, being philosophically opposed to welfare, and a myriad of other people and things, how does one justify ones own largesse from the tax payer, in the form of an Aged Pension, and at the same time not appearing to be a hypocrite of the undeserving type? Simple, place YOUR aged welfare into another category, in fact don't refer to it as welfare at all. Create a myth that your Aged Pension is simply recompense for your non-existent contributions to a non-existent pension fund. Failing that, just claim it is your rightful return for past payment of pensions, paid to others by you, when you were on Centerlink benefits.

thinkabit & Paul1405,
So, all these work being done now by the people in the workforce now is possible due to what ?
Due to the the now old people who invested in the infrastructure that enabled the present folk to keep building without having to build the base first just many of my generation built on what our elders provided & their elders before them. And, so the show works !
Will you forfeit your Superannuation/pension when you're no longer productive ? My bet is not because you paid for it up front just like we & those before us did.
I really wished there was a requirement for a license to vote when I think of how you people think !

Individual, I suspect that you don't understand exponential growth. Exponentials are tricky and not at all intuitive!

Let me try to demonstrate the power of exponential growth:

If someone is elderly, say a 75 year old aged pensioner, then that means that most likely they haven't, on balance, made a positive contribution to society's production for the last 25 years or more. Because, as I said in my previous post, productivity peaks for most in their 40's. From there it's a fast falling downward path and once 65 and retired it drops precipitously. In fact for many (at a guess including you) personal productivity becomes negative once retired because they cost the economy more than they produce.

Now, if you look at a population chart, 25 years ago Australia's population was about 18.4 million but today it is 25.9 million. That's a 71% increase!

And if you look at a GDP chart, 25 years ago the economy was about 435 billion$US while today it is about 1350 billion $US*. That's more than a 300% increase!!

So for the 25 years that the elderly candidate above has been overall non-productive the working population has supported them (along with others eg: the young, their compatriot old folk, the incapacitated, etc.) while building all the infrastructure required for a 71% increase in population (and that's a population today that demands higher living standards than 25 years ago) and at the same time more than tripling the GDP.

That's why it's correct to say that the older a retired cohort is the less they have contributed to the current wealth of Australia as a percentage of the total. Basically, the wealth of the country is mainly due to those CURRENTLY working due to exponential growth.

-- continued below --

-- from above --

Again, I challenge you. Look around your house: how many of its contents are decades old? Go for a drive: how much of the public and private infrastructure that you see is decades old (and if it was originally built decades ago- how long since its last major overhaul/renovation). The truth is that not much of the man-made world that currently surrounds us was created by the elderly.

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By-the-way: Unless something goes catastrophically wrong, I've way too much wealth to receive a pension when I'm 65 (there probably won't be an aged pension in its current form anyway by then). And also, because I'm wealthy with a delicious yearly investments derived income, I'm severely penalised for making contributions to my super. My retirement is funded by my personal investments and not a pension/super.

---

*:admittedly, these figures are not inflation adjusted and unfortunately not $AUD- I had a quick look but couldn't find inflation adjusted $AUD figures.

shadowminister wrote " I believe you are just lying and making up stuff again. "

Of course, what Paul wrote about Menzies is utter rubbish but its not fair to say he's lying. He truly believes it. Over the years I've met many an ex-Marxist who believe things that are historical rubbish. What happens is that they get told these fables in their youth and, being used to just believing what their Marxist gurus tell them, they accept it without the need to verify.

Then later in life they regurgitate it as fact, just as Paul does in these pages. I've explained to him in the past that the pig-iron Bob assertions are rubbish. I've even shown him the evidence for that. In one ear, out the other.

So he says rubbish like Menzies "believed 10% unemployed was an acceptable number to keep workers under control." If I was to point out to him, as an example, that, in his 1962 budget speech, he said that his main aim was "to maintain full employment of man-power and resources" Paul would be unimpressed. Such truths elude people like Paul, who will both ignore and dismiss said truths.

So he's not lying. He's just delusional.

Dear o sung wu,

To be fair it should be noted that besides “parcels of food, gifts and other personal mail to the diggers fighting in Country” it also carried heavy military equipment including Centurian tanks.

And it seems navy personnel were pretty good at standing up for themselves regarding wages too. When the ship was crewed by a combined civilian and RAN contingent the naval blokes found out the civilian crew were getting a small 'war bonus' when they were in the war zone itself. The RAN crew kicked up a thorough stink and it was only resolved by the navy promising to pay the difference into the RAN Relief Trust Fund.

It seems Australians were a lot more inclined to seek collective wage justice back then. It seems we are far more compliant with mediocre offerings now to various roles now.

This doesn't of course include our police unions which are among the most powerful in the country.

Back in the early 90's police unions started affiliating themselves with the ACTU and became notably more militant securing payrises for their members well above what the ordinary worker was receiving.

“Already during the past 12 months, the various State-based police associations have secured large pay rises for their members through a strategy of greater national coordination of their wage campaigns and shrewd "working"of the centralised wagefixing system.
While most of the unionised workforce received last year the 2.5 per cent general wage rise handed down by the Industrial Relations Commission, police officers were granted special additional pay rises ranging from 5 to 26 per cent.”
http://www.afr.com/politics/police-unions-on-the-brink-of-tough-tactics-nation-wide-19920117-k4qv9

Push back from the union has been a feature ever since for instance in 2011 continuing industrial action by the NSW police force cost the taxpayers 11 million dollars.

I am assuming you would have been a beneficiary of this largess to some extent. Having benefited from such a strong union I'm interested in your view which industrial actions are acceptable and which are not?

Hi there INDIVIDUAL...

Those 521 souls who perished in Country was bad enough - but it's almost incalculable the precise number of those Vietnam Vets who've died by their own hand since?

Accordingly, we should never forget, whether a war is justified or otherwise. If a soldier of any structured military force fails to respond to the wishes of his political masters who are engaged in some warlike activity, and is sent to prosecute that war by his political masters, he must surely go. To do otherwise is tantamount to a treasonable offence.

This is a fact that most consciences objector's conveniently forget.

o sung wu,

"Do you recall what the unions 'proudly' did during the war in South Vietnam - They wouldn't load the supply Ship, HMAS Jeparit that was scheduled to convey parcels of food, gifts and other personal mail to the diggers fighting in Country?"

That wasn't the first time they did it either. Between September 1939 and June 1941, Russia and Germany were allies. The maritime unions in Australia were controlled by communists controlled by Russia and were therefore opposed to the war. Consequently they delayed and sabotaged the loading of ships being sent to support the Australian forces in Africa and Europe. This continued until Hitler invaded Russia to whom the union leaders were really aligned. Then they demanded that more stuff be loaded and sent.

They were patriots....just not Australian patriots.

mhaze, evidence of 'Pig Iron' Bob's love of Hitler;

"History will label Hitler as one of the great men of the century" - Robert Menzies, Perth Mirror June 1939.

Menzies had spent 2 weeks in NAZI Germany, disappointed he didn't get to meet his beloved Fuhrer, but returned with glowing praise for the achievements of Fascism.

BS mhaze, Australian maritime unions opposed the loading of pig iron bound for Japan. 'Pig Iron' Bob was demanding Japan get the much needed iron to make bombs to drop on the hapless Chinese.

Mhaze,

For Pauliar to believe what he posts he would have to be so delusional that he would be drooling and shouting at trees.

Pauliar is a liar and fraud. There is no evidence to any of his claims about Menzies as he has never been able to provide a jot of evidence. And I have looked through historical records and there is no mention of it anywhere.

However, this level of lying is typical of the pedogreens.

mhaze, in 1962 like Morrison today, Menzies was facing defeat due to his economic mismanagement. He needed to "soft soap" workers to gain votes. Look at his record pre-war and up to 1941.

shonky, nothing to say about the Menzies quote above. For years the LIBERAL PARTY has sanitised history as far as their beloved 'Pig Iron' Bob is concerned.

Shonky, you call "Googling" looking through historical records, what a joke. Tell us what books and publications have you read on Menzies, I have read several, some favourable, some not so. Just this year I read David Kemps favourable account of Menzies.

Paul,

Your historic knowledge really is atrocious, isn't it. For example, you write..."in 1962 like Morrison today, Menzies was facing defeat...". But the election was held in 1961. It was already over. Menzies won. The 1962 budget was about fulfilling the promises made in the election (something else that would confuse you). And part of that fulfillment was aiming for full employment whereas you claim (without evidence) that he wanted 10% unemployment - a claim that you aren't prepared to defend, will now drop, but repeat in a year or three, when you think you can get away with it.

No attempt to defend the unions working on behalf of the German war machine in 1939-1941? Good idea because its indefensible.

As to the pig iron issue, as I've previously tried to educate you on, pig iron isn't used in munitions. And Menzies wasn't working to sell it to Japan which was legal. He was Attorney-General and was working to ensure that the legal contract was fulfilled. I'd also try to explain to you how cutting Japan off from needed imports, as the unions and dills like yourself wanted, was one of the causes of the Pacific War. But I suspect it'd go over your head.

Yes Menzies did express some admiration for what Hitler had done with the economy. If you read (well not you, but someone interested int the truth)...if you read the full quote, you'll see he was praising Hitler's achievements as regards the economy. As did Chamberlain, Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin, Curtin, Chifley and Caldwell along with millions of others. Menzies also criticised Hitler's anti-Semitism. If you were more versed in history you'd see that its possible to admire the achievements of even evil men, without approving of their aims or methods. That's the adult way of viewing the world.

Oops! After I posted yesterday I noticed a mistake in my calculations. I couldn't correct it till today due to the four comment limit.

The population has increased by about 30% not 70% in the last 25 years.

However, this doesn't negate my argument, because it's the increase in production that really matters. The GDP figure I gave is correct and the point that because it has grown exponentially the current working population contribute more to the wealth of society than the elderly did is still valid. The other important fact that is still valid is that most physical public or private assets (such as a road or a house) made decades ago would have deteriorated by now if they hadn't received regular maintenance/renovation/upgrades by the current working population.

So overall my case is still stands even though I gave the wrong population figure.

Dear mhaze,
You really do have to stop relying on thoroughly discredited pieces from old Quadrant editions as tenuous at best evidence for the made-up or overhyped rubbish you keep foisting upon us.

In the early 1940’s over 50% of the Australian workforce was unionised with Communists in many leadership positions.

There were disputes across all industries during the war but those at the docks pale into insignificance compared to the Hunter coal region. There miners went against their leadership and went of strike repeatedly for better conditions.

The Communist leadership of Australia’s unions stepped up, particularly when Curtin came to power in 1941, seeking to have members enlist. The leader of the Seamans Union E.V.Elliott, who was a leading member of the Communist Party, joined Curtin’s wartime Maritime Industry Commission which set out to ensure the smooth running of the sector.

What people like yourself seem quick to ignore is the hundreds of Merchant Navy workers who lost their lives operating mainly undefended civilian shipping around Australia’s coastlines during the war. These were members of the Communist led union so derided by the hard right of this country.

Perhaps at the next ANZAC parade some of your ilk at least acknowledge their contribution and sacrifice.

thinkabit,

Again, without diminishing your central point, there is a problem with your GDP numbers in that they are not adjusted for inflation. Therefore a lot of the increase you mention isn't because of increased productivity or production, nor is it reflective of improved living standards.

In fact, real GDP (ie GDP adjusted for the effects of inflation) increased by approximately 40% in the 25 yr period you're discussing. (I say approximately since the exact increase depends on the inflation rate you use).

SR,

Well since I didn't mention Quadrant as a source, (and by the way, it isn't) quite why you'd go there is a mystery. And since we were taking about the maritime unions and their efforts to sabotage Australian forces in the MENA regions, quite why you'd bring up the coal miners is a mystery.

Well actually its not a mystery. Its standard operating procedures for SR. When you can't argue with my points, change the subject and tell me how wrong I was about things I never mentioned. Dill.

But the funniest (or saddest) part of your post is that you start defending the maritime unions by referring to what they did after Hitler invaded Russia. That rather was my point which, if you look up, you'll see going over your head. While Hitler and Stalin were allies, the communist controlled maritime unions opposed the war and actively sought to sabotage the war effort. But once the nation to which their true allegiance lay (Russia) was threatened they were completely on board with the war and admonished the government for not doing more to help mother Russia. So rabbiting on about what the unions did after June 1941 misses the point. I was talking about what they did from Sept 39 to June 41.

Do try to keep up

Thinkabit,
The railway roadbeds are much the same as they were in the latter half of the 19C, likewise the basic structure of many roads.

Dear mhaze,

You are a riot son, I'll give you that.

No matter how often you repeat lines like these: "the communist controlled maritime unions opposed the war and actively sought to sabotage the war effort" they don't magically become evidence.

I quoted figures and used specific examples while all you have done is ponce on in running off Quadrant speaking points without anything to back them up.

What if anything do you have that will substantiate a single thing you have put in this thread?

SR,

Well again, I haven't mentioned Quadrant as a source. But don't let mere facts deter you...you never have before. You say "I quoted figures and used specific examples" and that's true. But they were facts and figures that weren't the slightest bit pertinent to what I said.

As to my knowledge on this, well its been known for many a decade. I first came across it from a series of articles in the National Times around 1980 or so. They were critiquing a sanitised history of the WWF. Then there is the more nuanced history written by Margo Beasley (?) in the 1990's. I'm not aware anything in Quadrant on the issue but if you have links, then show 'em. I'd be interested.

I fully understand that you and your ilk would want to rewrite history to hide what was a shameful period. But that rarely works. BTW are you disputing that the Australian communists were opposed to the war while Hitler and Stalin were allies?

> "The railway roadbeds are much the same as they were in the latter half of the 19C"

No they're not! Each state railway has a continual program of line maintenance. And part of that is ballast tamping to reshape/restore the profile of the beds. These are the sorts of machines that they do this with these days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamping_machine (this use to be done manually). Sometimes they add more ballast or even completely replace the ballast with new material.
For example, the main QLD line from Brisbane to Cairns use to be on wooden sleepers with spikes to hold the rail. These have been replaced now with concrete sleepers and a sort of clip like piece that grips the rails. I can remember from when I was younger, near the station where I use to live, watching the work crew substantially reshaping the bed when they replaced the sleepers.

> "likewise the basic structure of many roads." -
There are very very few roads from the 19C (1800's) that today would resemble anything like they were when originally built. Road building techniques are vastly different now than from the 1800's and also the minimum standards have increased incredibly. But even most main roads from the last century (1900's) have changed substantially during the last 100 years.
Take for example the Bruce Hwy, which is the main highway in QLD north from Brisbane along the cost. Again when I was a kid, it dropped down to a single lane hwy not that far North of Brisbane. Now it is three lanes all the way to Caboolture (soon to be all the way to the Sunshine Coast) and two lanes to Gympie. The road itself has been moved in places to dodge some towns and to straighten it. Not to mention that the quality and sophistication of the engineering has improved dramatically.

In the above: "And part of that is ballast tamping to reshape/restore the profile of the beds. "

I should have also included mentioning a ballast regulator machine.

Had an uncle who worked as a "fettler" on the NSW Western Line between Mullion Creek and Stewart Town in the days of steam. Bloody hard work, he nearly got killed once by a train, not uncommon.

Many people denounce the critical skill levels of today yet less than a handful are prepared to work on improving the mentality needed for the future.
There are highly skilled people who are instrumental in keeping the cogs of the workings of this Nation oiled. Sadly though, their contributions are either taken for granted & even ridiculed by those living off the former.
There are enough brains but without the right mentality !

Hey thinkabit, isn't it great the kids have finished the Sydney Harbor Bridge, that should give a boost to the productivity of the whole of Sydney.

Hang on a bit, it was my grand father, not the kids who worked on it, & much other infrastructure which w=enabled our growth.

Dear mhaze,

Well this is a bit rich from you: “Well again, I haven't mentioned Quadrant as a source. But don't let mere facts deter you...you never have before.”

But then you go on to say I do provide them but they aren’t in line with what you want to talk about.

The union movement was opposed to war because it was going to be a conflict among Imperialist nations which would likely see the common man again fodder for the cannon.

They were also avowedly anti-fascist, something Menzies was not, nor were a large part of the British upper class.

The Unions had Menzies measure and when he tried union bashing legislation in the 50s they certainly reminded him of it.

Mr. P. L. Troy, secretary of the Docks, Rivers and Harbor Workers' Union

"The legislation is typically fascist. It is designed to take away Communist leadership from the struggle of the Australian people for a better life.

"Mr. Menzies' characterising of Australian Communists as traitors will not deceive working people. I would offer the comparison of my own history with his.

"Like thousands of other Communists. I volunteered for service in World War II. Mr Menzies resigned his commission in the University Rifles to keep out of World War I.

"No Communists were tried as war criminals in all the ex-enemy lands where trials were held, but many of the disciples of Mr. Menzies' former friends, Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo, were found guilty and have since been sent into oblivion."

And what an apologist he was. This from him in 1937:

"It was ridiculous to claim that a country like Italy did not understand liberty. Mussolini and his Black Shirts took office not for tyranny but to purify a Government."

The outbreak of war in the Pacific, failed to deter 'Pig Iron' Bob's plans for appeasement of the Japanese. Menzies championed the idea of a "Brisbane Line" whereby Australia would cede Northern Australia to the Japanese. Many believed the plan would result in a Japanese puppet government in Canberra, Menzies may have seen himself as the Vidkun Quisling style Prime Minister of this new Australian State.

Just as Menzies was pro war in 1914/18 he failed to volunteer to fight in that war, although over 80% of eligible Australian males did so. John Howard a strident admirer of Menzies, did likewise during the Vietnam War, support the war, but fail to fight it!

SR,

Still trying to change the subject I see. Still trying to insinuate that my information comes from something you found in Quadrant I see. Oh well standard SR there.....make comic errors and double down. Prefer to look the clown than admit error.

My point was very specific. That between September 1939 and June 1941 the WWF deliberately sought to disrupt the war effort by sabotaging the loading of supply ships for Diggers fighting in the MENA region and that they did that because the WWF leadership were controlled by Moscow which was, at that time, allied to Hitler. Further that this showed that the communist union leaders were more concerned about obeying Moscow than helping fellow Australians.

Now I get that you and poor deluded Paul, unable to argue against what is established fact, but desperately wanting to hide this despicable period in union history, want to change the subject to...well anything other than that.

This period was not something western communists want to remember. There's the story of Peter Seegar, who spent 1940-41 demanding that Roosevelt stay out of the war, even issuing albums with anti-war songs. Unfortunately for him, the album was released in May 1941 and Hitler invaded in June 1941. At that point the US communists demanded Roosevelt get into the war. The album was recalled and as many copies as possible destroyed - memory-holed. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_for_John_Doe)

It is thought that the famous scene in Orwelll's 1984 where the crowd suddenly start chanting vilification at Eastasia having previously been denouncing Eurasia, comes from this period. Communists in most western countries went from denouncing the war to demanding at greater war effort virtually overnight. None of them had their own countries interest at heart. The welfare of Russia was their only concern.

No wonder you want to change the subject.

Dear mhaze,

You specifically claimed that the unions were “working on behalf of the German war machine in 1939-1941”.

What rubbish.

All you have done is double down on discredited pieces in circulation, many written around the time of the Patricks Waterfront Dispute to attack unions.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-12-11/stanley-australias-secret-and-unhistorical-war/5960090

Given you are so reluctant to provide evidence of any description it is most likely because it would tip your hand.

So I’m going to give you another opportunity to support your fresh claim that: “That between September 1939 and June 1941 the WWF deliberately sought to disrupt the war effort by sabotaging the loading of supply ships for Diggers fighting in the MENA region and that they did that because the WWF leadership were controlled by Moscow which was, at that time, allied to Hitler.”

As to Australian’s supporting the war during those early years many simply did not. Menzies had hoped that many of those serving with Australia’s Militias would have fleshed out the AIF ranks but he only managed to raise a single division, the 6th thus the push for conscription.

This was in a large part not only because of a reticence of the men but also because of the reluctance of Militia commanders to release soldiers and equipment.

Many Australians were also rightly concerned about sending men and materials half way around the world when the looming threat of Japan was real and present.

Were those commanders and the Australians who did not want to see the defense of the country degraded also: “working on behalf of the German war machine in 1939-1941”?

Unsubstantiated, preposterous revisionist, hogwash for you yet again. Stump up old boy or give it a rest.

mhaze- Perhaps if we are involved in a conflict with China we may be in a similar situation as to WWII and the Vietnam War- we should be aware of likely Communist subversives now so that they can be managed in the future. Though we need to be aware that the Communists will try to use Communist conflict with the authorities to cause wider dissent within the community. It's sad that there are home grown people that aren't loyal to their own communities.

Pauliar,

Once again you are lying through your teeth. The "Brisbane line" was not an attempt to appease the Japanese, rather it was a military strategy to fight the Japanese based on the capability of the relatively tiny Aus population at the time.

SR,

Although the news of the atrocities committed by the communists wasn't widely known in the 1930s, by the 1950s it had become clear that communism was a murderous system at least as bad as fascism.

Menzie's actions were aimed at the toxic communist aligned movements primarily in the unions and while he had little success the Australian Communist party started falling apart after 1956 when the brutal invasion of Hungary opened everyone's eyes to the true colour of communism .

SM,

You write: "Menzie's actions were aimed at the toxic communist aligned movements primarily in the unions"

The obvious retort is the union's response was aimed at toxic undemocratic laws attempted to be instituted by a fascist inspired, fascist admiring, fascist apologist who Australians rightly turfed as leader during the war given his fascist tendencies.

His words in a letter to his sister are pretty telling:

"The Germans may be pulling down the Churches, but they have erected the State, with Hitler at its head, into the sort of religion which produces a spiritual exaltation that one cannot but admire and some small portion of which would do no harm among our own somewhat irresponsible population."

That Australians were far more comfortable with a left leaning government during the war than one led by Menzies shows they had a sense of what this bloke was about.

SR,

I've already told you where I got the information about the WWF sabotaging shipments to the Diggers in the MENA warfronts.

What I find most extraordinary is that you find this surprising. The control of the CPA by the Comintern is the 1940s is hardly controversial except, its seems, to those who are blissfully ignorant of the issue.

Try this... http://vuir.vu.edu.au/32983/1/The%20Comintern,%20The%20Communist%20Party%20of%20Australia%20and%20Illegality%20-%20Robert%20Bozinovski.pdf

In terms of the specific issue of the WWF's sabotage, I've pointed you to the places I recall learning of this way back when ie articles in the National Times as well as the book by Margo Beasley "Wharfies: A History of the Waterside Workers' Federation of Australia".

There may be stuff on the WWW but I'm not aware of it.

Again,are you disputing that the Australian communists were opposed to the war while Hitler and Stalin were allies? And if they were opposed to the war, why do you find it surprising that the WWF would act on that position?

Just screaming "I don't want it to be true" isn't the way adults think.

SR,

What unadulterated drivel. Given that from when the Nazis took control of Germany, the German economy had gone through a spectacular boom compared to the rest of the world and the dark side of Nazism wasn't yet apparent, Germany at that point got the admiration of many people most of whom had no love for fascism.

Likewise given the 18m killed in WW1 the policy of appeasement was accepted by pretty much every world government who were reluctant to start WW2. All this time the politically motivated mass slaughter of nearly 20m Russians by the communist party was happily underway.

By the 1950s it was clear that the communists were at least as bad as the Nazis ever were, and the WWF being run by communists was just as odious as if they were run by Nazis.

Hasbeen, the Sydney Harbour Bridge is actually a perfect example that supports the point I'm making.

I think you may misunderstand what it is that I'm saying so I'll try to explain it again:

My point is that the *current* working population, is the cohort that is responsible for more wealth/production in our society than any other cohort.

This actually applies pretty much at any point of time for a very long time previously. And it also applies to most societies, especially those free market based, that haven't suffered from cataclysmic events such as a scorched earth war or plagues or etc. The main reason for this is because of exponential growth in factors such as population, production efficiencies, technology and scientific knowledge, etc.

Let's examine the Sydney Harbour Bridge as an example:
A bridge was first seriously proposed way back at the turn of the 20 century. At that time the only publicly accessible way across the harbours was by ferry, which I'm guessing would have been slow, low capacity, steam powered ferries. After a few decades of typical governmental stuffing around and a world war the bridge was finally opened in 1932. This event was a tremendous improvement over the ferries and greatly contributed to Sydney's productivity and wealth. This is an example of the current working population at the time greatly increasing the nation's wealth/productivity at that time.

However, the story doesn't stop here. Because close to a hundred year's since has past and we need to examine what's happened in the meantime.

Well long story short: the bridge as been properly maintained and is in good nick. That is, considerable resources are spent maintaining it so this means that the original input from those who built it is a continually diminishing fraction of the overall input into the bridge- ie: with each passing day less of the current wealth generated by the bridge can be attributed to the original builders due to maintenance costs.

-- continued below --

-- from above --

But not only that, since it was originally built it has been rejigged/upgraded: the trams line have been replaced with a couple more car lanes and also a bike lane has been added on the side. This improvement has increased the utility of the bridge- but you can't attribute this to the original builders- it gets attributed to the generation at the time that made the improvement. Then some time after this is it was altered and improved again; a tidal flow system was introduced which has increased daily usage. So once more we attribute this increase in utility and its subsequent production boost to those who implemented it- not the original builders.

There's still even more to note: because since the initial boost in total harbour crossings when the bridge opened another major harbour crossing boost has arrived- the Sydney Harbour Tunnel!! And in addition to this, it should be noted that the bridge didn't replace the ferries, the ferries are still there. Today they're faster, higher capacity, efficient diesel boats and can transit more people across the harbour per day than the ferries of 1932.

So overall, over the whole life of the coat hanger: Compared to its initial potential at its opening, its relative contribution to the wealth derived from all harbour crossings (bridge or otherwise) has continually decreased.

And this is typical of pretty much any asset built by previous generations- the relative contribution of the original asset to society's wealth continually decreases as time passes. So consequently, it's a fact that the percentage of wealth/production that can be attributed to a previous generation eventually pales into insignificance when compared to that of the latest generation. This is quite an obvious fact! Even a child could tell you that the productivity and production due to the efforts of the population years ago is undeniably significantly less than that of today's population. But for some reason, that I don't understand, people like individual just don't seem to get this.

Clearly in the Menzies letter to his sister, it shows him having an admiration for Faschism, even believing it could benefit Australia if introduced.

Yes I can just imagine 'Pig Iron' Bob kneeling at the feet of Tojo as the lacky PM of a Japanese Australian state.

SM, if things had come to pass, you would be speaking Jaoanese with your mate mhaze. Most likely both of you would have minor jobs in the Dept of Human Control. Being loyal party members and all.

Thinkabit- You made a good point but it's still wrong in my view. It's orders of magnitude harder to build things than maintain them- the distortions of currency over time is a source confusion. Accountants understand cost but not value.

Thanks TAB,

Once understanding what you say about public assets and how wealth is produced by them over time, one can see the value of the necessity for on going investment in those assets to produce wealth today.

Some years back I read a small book on Sydney Harbour. I believe the first public system of harbour crossing was by way of row boat, payment of a shilling to the boatsman. Allowing for inflation a shilling was a lot of money, and many drowned trying to swim. Later a horse drawn punt operated, so carts could be transported across.

My 'Old Man' was in attendance on the opening day in 1932. Always a Langite he was involved in more than the one brawl with the fascist New Guard.

Pauliar,

Why are you such a lying troll? Menzies never implied that he wanted to implement fascism, and if that's what you get from his letter to his sister then you are an idiot.

Fortunately, the Australian Communist party fell apart when the horrors of communism became apparent

Got a quote yesterday for steel bar the cost of which was $22. To drill 5 holes into it & galvanise it came to $470,-
What skills are required to make this job so criminally expensive ??

thinkabit,

The problem with your thesis is that it's all based around physical goods. But generations bequeath more than just 'stuff' and infrastructure.

For example, the previous generation bequeathed an education to the current 'productive' generation. Indeed a good deal of what this generation achieves is due to the education provided them by their ancestors. Whatismore, it could be said that the previous generation invested in the generation of the current one and that the productivity of the current is, at least partially, a return on that investment.

No generation operates in a vacuum. They all rely on the societal bequest of the ancestors. They inherited a free and capitalistic society which facilitates their productivity.

The current elderly generation could have been much more productive in their productive years had they not made investments in their kid's and grandkid's future. They are simply getting pay-back for that earlier investment.

They are simply getting pay-back for that earlier investment.
mhaze,
Ready yourself from Flak from Paul1405 who views the investments of previous generations as invalid !

SM,

You write: “the dark side of Nazism wasn't yet apparent”
What? Are you mad? This is a brief timeline of Germany under Hitler.

1933
January 30 Appointed Chancellor of Germany

March 22 Dachau concentration camp opens

April 7 Laws for Reestablishment of the Civil Service barred Jews from holding civil service, university, and state positions

April 26 Gestapo established

May 10 Public burning of books written by Jews, political dissidents, and others not approved by the state

1934
August 2 Hitler proclaims himself Führer und Reichskanzler (Leader and Reich Chancellor). Armed forces must now swear allegiance to him

1935
September 15 "Nuremberg Laws": anti-Jewish racial laws enacted; Jews no longer considered German citizens; Jews could not marry Aryans; nor could they fly the German flag

November 15 Germany defines a "Jew": anyone with three Jewish grandparents; someone with two Jewish grandparents who identifies as a Jew

1936
March 3 Jewish doctors barred from practicing medicine in German institutions

July Sachsenhausen concentration camp opens

1937
July 15 Buchenwald concentration camp opens

1938
April 26 Mandatory registration of all property held by Jews inside the Reich

October 28 17,000 Polish Jews living in Germany expelled; Poles refused to admit them; 8,000 are stranded in the frontier village of Zbaszyn

November 9-10 Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass): anti-Jewish pogrom in Germany, Austria, and the Sudetenland; 200 synagogues destroyed; 7,500 Jewish shops looted; 30,000 male Jews sent to concentration camps (Dachau, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen)

November 12 Decree forcing all Jews to transfer retail businesses to Aryan hands

November 15 All Jewish pupils expelled from German schools

December 12 One billion Marks fine levied against German Jews for the destruction of property during Kristallnacht

These weren't hidden from the world as you seem to be contending.

Cont..

Cont...

On the same day the 12th of December Menzies delivers a speech in a church in Sydney as reported in the Tribune:

Quote

The Federal Attorney-General (Mr. Menzies) pleaded yesterday for friendship with the Reich.

"I am making a risky plea for under standing with this country, since I know it will all be misrepresented."
...

"I thought myself it was a great thing for Germany to have arms. How childish to think 70,000,000 people could remain unarmed in a ring of armed countries."

Mr. Menzies said that the Runciman report on Czechoslovakia stated that annexation by Germany would be a solution of the Sudeten problem.
"What we should realise is that it was a dispute with two sides.

"Yet during the Czech crisis otherwise honest, intelligent people said that there was bound to be a war with Germany so we should have it now and get it over.

"If that fatalistic view had pre vailed then, there would have been the war of 1938-41.
...

"Real peace can never be secured by force— by this idea of preventing some vague future war by having a dark and dreadful one now.

"The only peace war can produce is the peace of exhaustion and death.

"We must get inside the minds of the Germans.

"They are important people. "We must get away from this cheap idea of saying that anything Germany does Is wrong."

End quote

In just 9 month the inevitable, which was evident to all but the fascist apologist Menzies, England was at war with Germany, the same country Menzies thought it was "great to have arms".

Case closed.

Dear mhaze,

You had said: "As to my knowledge on this, well its been known for many a decade. I first came across it from a series of articles in the National Times around 1980 or so. They were critiquing a sanitised history of the WWF. Then there is the more nuanced history written by Margo Beasley (?) in the 1990's."

That is hardly evidence is it. A memory you had from over 40 years ago and a book you have read but can't provide a single supporting quote from. Compared to what I have provided you have a long way to go. Any chance of something tangible that can be interrogated? Probably unlikely but I can ask.

if you don't have skills you can't survive in your life
scottroger,
Don't confuse some bureaudroid's approval of someone's correct ticking of a multiple choice questionnaire as skill.
Skill is not what someone approves, skill is to do a job in a manner that covers your cost of employment & leaves a customer satisfied.
Joining an organisation that protects undeserved remuneration is not a skill. That's parasitism !
It also causes the massive inequalities that have brought our local industries to their knees.
It also brought us to the point where people are asked to literally spend more for less & even less than what they earn themselves. This brought us to the situation where housing is now unaffordable for the class that still produces but the rewards are hijacked & stolen by the "qualified" !

Labor MP Eddie Ward, who in a speech in 1944 called Menzies a “posturing individual with the scowl of Mussolini, the bombast of Hitler and the physical proportions of Goering”

Paul1405,
Only a supreme village idiot would expect a Labor mutt to say anything complimentary about a Conservative.

SR,

Yes I get it. If the evidence isn't delivered all tied up in a neat bow for you to access from your keyboard, then you pretend it doesn't exist. I've told you where to find the evidence....I can do no more.

I've also provided you with evidence all tied up in a neat bow showing that the Communist Party of Australia were completely controlled by Moscow and therefore were opposed to the war effort against Germany in 1939- June 41. But since you don't want that to be true, its also ignored.

So again, SR, ,are you disputing that the Australian communists were opposed to the war while Hitler and Stalin were allies? And if they were opposed to the war, why do you find it surprising that the WWF would act on that position?

SR displays his 'L's yet again....

"In just 9 month the inevitable, which was evident to all but the fascist apologist Menzies"

Well that's just rubbish, utter rubbish. One of the major errors those not versed in historic study make is to assume that the people in the past had perfect knowledge of the future. We know that war broke out in Sept 39, so, according to the decrepit thinking, the people in 1938 should have known it also.

The fact is that in December 1938, the majority of the western leadership thought that war had been completely averted. Sure, there were some, like Churchill, who saw it differently. But Chamberlain had only recently decamped from Munich with his "peace in our time"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SetNFqcayeA

Note the words in that clip..."one man saved us from the greatest war of all".

All that changed in March 1939 when Hitler took the rump Czechoslovakia but was in the future in December 1938. It seems that concept escapes many.

Menzies was only expressing the views of most of the western leadership in 1938. You would do well to read Churchill's eulogy speech in parliament upon Chamberlain's death. Its one of the great speeches of the 20th century which boils down to recognising him as a good man deceived by bad events. But Menzies, in the future, was to vex the left for two wonderful decades, and as such they, the left, will hate him for any reason, including failure to foresee the future.

It would also do SR et al good to look into the attitude of the ALP leadership in this period. They were isolationist and even more supportive of the thinking behind Munich. But alas, these are unwanted facts so SR will ignore them.

Again, Menzies' views expressed in 1937-1939 were completely mainstream. There were dissenters from those views, even in his own party, but for the most part world leaders admired what Germany had done economically and also sympathised with the efforts to reverse Versailles and reunite the separated German groups in Czechoslovakia and elsewhere. That changed in March 1939.

SR,

Quite contrary to your assertion most people and politicians were worried about a war starting, but few were certain that war was inevitable. You should watch the recent film "the edge of war" about exactly this period and it should outline some of the issues.

For example, after years of neglect, the allies' armies were far from ready and needed time to mobilize etc.

Next time don't make such a rookie error.

Individual- If you want to shape/ cut/ drill steel bar- often a neighbour or friend will have a drill press or organisations such as the Men's Shed movement have access to equipment and expertise and they'll let you use it. Some small fabrication businesses will do things on the cheap if you have a good relationship with them- and you bring coffee money- $5- $10- they often have surprisingly good equipment- of course getting exactly what you want requires some subtlety. Even Bunnings will cut to size for a small fee. Many people find that in the end getting your own tools from Gumtree (40 years ago people used The Trading Post which still exists) or similar and then reselling them when you've finished with them is the easiest solution.
I agree that often building something requires an inordinate effort in this supposedly modern age- but it is geared around mass rather than customized production. I'd do something like create a jig using wood that you can test and use it to create the metal piece- if this level of accuracy is required.

People such as Is Mise and Hasbeen will have extemporaneous skill in metal work I assume.

If you don't think that laser cutting is necessary it may not be- sometimes you need to think about why they are saying that

The way Indy slags off workers, he'd be lucky to pick up a greasy bit of rag for free himself. But having said that, back in the day I would have no problem with his little "foreign order", it would be ready for Indy to pick up this arvo. A lot of workshops might not have 15mm, a more common size is 16mm or 5/8".

BTW a decent 15mm HSS drill bit is worth about $50. Cheap sh!t for $20.

Well it seems we have a tweedle deluded and tweedle dumb act.

Come on you two, you are both on a hiding to nothing on this.

In 1938 there was some doubt about Germany's capacity to wage war but little doubt about their intent.

"Germany is in no shape at
all to wage a major, prolonged war.
The German generals have no illu-
sions about it.
That is why they, or some of them,
have been thinking, in terms of the
“blitzkrieg—the “lightning war”—
staking everything on the attempt to
gain victory by one smashing blow;
a knook-out ln the first round.
This idea is to combine an over-
whelming air offensive against big
cities with an irresistible thrust by
mechanised troops before the enemy's
defence consolidates.
And then a, quick peace before any-
body else, joins in.
It is a tempting vision. But—there
are many buts.
The air action must really over-
whelm; the assault must really be ir-
resistible. If there is any miscalcu-
lation, any breakdown, if the first
punch, for whatever reason, falls to
connect, why then—certain disaster.
And the technique of the blitzkrieg
is supremely difficult;
It necessitates the highest standards
of efficiency throughout the whole
army—a perfect machine moving
without hitch at top speed."
The Labour Daily Sept 1938

But according to you clowns Australian's were none the wiser about Hitler's intentions.

In a direct counter to the danger clearly articulated by the left in Australia Menzies was basically giving the green light for the taking of parts of Czechoslovakia saying there were two sides to the story, celebrating Germany re-arming itself, and writing to his sister about his deep admiration for Hitler's cult status

Some small fabrication businesses will do things on the cheap
Canem Malum,
I called (7) seven steel fabricators in Cairns, Townsville & Mareeba & none of them could do the job. Didn't have that size steel bar, one was willing to sell by the metre but the others only sell a length, none of them could supply the steel, drill the holes & get it to the galvanising shop.
My Drill press motor burned out so I thought I'd just get an engineering shop to make it up.
I'm getting one made in Sydney & sent to Nth Qld for less than half the cost !

Individual- Yes I had to get some metalwork done some time back- and yes I rang quite a few places. 15 mm hole quite large- sounds like the drilling could be a job for a plasma torch- they used to do it using a oxy kit and a metal cone apparently. Many people might just drill many holes and bastard file it- but a fair bit of work for thick plate- and 5 holes.

Have you tried these guys (I expect they're the first ones you tried) they say they do custom lengths and holes and they have a presence in Cairns and Townsville.

http://www.sqsteel.com.au/contact/
http://www.sqsteel.com.au/steel-supplier-products/steel-plate/

Anyway looks like you are getting it from Sydney.

Ebay also sells odd sized mild steel plate but you've got the shipping.

I wasn't sure about the full dimensions

SR,

Now you are just lying. No one has claimed that "Australians were none the wiser about Hitler's intentions". You are the moron insisting that everyone else knew that war was inevitable. The final act of appeasement was the transfer of the majority of German Sudetenland to Germany from Czechoslovakia.

The reality is that Chamberlain and Menzies both knew that war was a likely outcome but believed that it would be negligent not to try as far as possible to avoid the conflict that killed between 35 and 50 million people.

Secondly, your claim that Menzies was a fascist apologist is an outright lie which the letter to his sister does not support.

SR demonstrates that he understands the period in the same way as my budgie understand nuclear fusion. It was well known at that time that the German war machine was being designed around a Blitzkrieg strategy. German generals had, after all, written books and articles on it as had the more farsighted British thinkers like Liddell-Hart and Fuller. So SR's newspaper quote is hardly unique.

But he claims that it shows that people knew of Germany's intent while in fact it doesn't mention intent at all.

Again, SR makes the rookie mistake of thinking the people of 1938 had knowledge of 1939. They didn't and most believed peace was still possible. Any even rudimentary understanding of the period would make that clear.

_____________________________________________________________

Whenever SR offers a quote without a link, you can be 100% sure its because he's hiding something in the quote. 100% sure.

Here's some other parts of the article he uses....

"The German army and the German people are not to-day in any condition to fight any major, war, “llghtnlng” or otherwise, without probability of defeat and collapse."

"So, for the time being, anyhow, the blitzkrieg is off, for the simple reason that the German army is not capable of executing it. "

So poor old SR, desperate to find something to back up his daffy notions, selectively quotes from an article that utterly refutes his daffy notions.

This, by the way, is the article SR hide....

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/236396694?searchTerm=Germany%20is%20in%20no%20shape

When your main aim is to try to cover your previous errors, inevitably you make more errors. When your main aim is to try to hide your previous foolishness, inevitably you end up looking more foolish.

Dear mhaze,

Well that got a laugh.

Firstly whenever anyone directly quotes as I do (and you don't) it is extremely simple exercise to look up the article or site, something you just illustrated. There was of course no attempt to hide anything.

I quoted the article as saying "Germany is in no shape at
all to wage a major, prolonged war."

Which was only repeated in the sentences you claim I had left out to confused the issue.

"The German army and the German people are not to-day in any condition to fight any major, war, “lightning” or otherwise, without probability of defeat and collapse." "So, for the time being, anyhow, the blitzkrieg is off, for the simple reason that the German army is not capable of executing it."

I culled some repetition and because your arguments have been shredded you are trying to make the case these refuted my argument. Absolute rot.

And all this coming from a bloke whose only offerings to substantiate his assertions was some dimly remembered National Times articles from decades ago and a book you can't provide a singe quote from.

You really are a piece of work aren't you. Grow up.

BTW even SM seems not to be buying what you are selling: "The reality is that Chamberlain and Menzies both knew that war was a likely outcome".

Well again SR, I'd point out that neither the article nor your selective quoting from it suggest anything about German intentions and most certainly nothing about their intentions in the then near future. Indeed when you look at the parts that you selectively skipped, it's clear that the author is saying the opposite of what you insinuated - ie that the Germans were unable to fight any type of war and had no intention of doing so. Whereas you insinuated through selective quoting that they were ready to fight a blitzkrieg war.

As I said, when you try to hide your foolishness, it just makes you look more foolish.

Funny that your defence for trying to distort the quote is that anyone prepared to investigate will easily be able to discover the distortion. "Yes, your honour, I did hide the knife. But that doesn't mean anything because anyone prepared to comb through the bush would have easily found it".

I'm not going to spend any more time of you on this issue since you've now painted yourself into a corner and aren't prepared to even think about admitting error. But the fact is that in Sept 38, the vast majority of western leadership were of the view that war had been averted for the foreseeable future and possibly for good. Your claim that war was inevitable in 1939 and that it was evident to all but a few, is hopelessly wrong and doesn't stand up to even a rudimentary understanding of history or that period. That the best you could come up with to support your argument is an article that also says that war was unlikely due to German unpreparedness, demonstrates just how wrong you are on this.

Dear mhaze,

Oh so now you are going to pick up your bat and ball and sulk off?

What a tosser as they say in the classics.

As to your claim the article is saying there was “no intention” of Germany going to war look at your own bloody quote from it, (with my emphasis):

“So, FOR THE TIME BEING, anyhow, the blitzkrieg is off, for the simple reason that the German army is not capable of executing it. "

And this was suppose to support your position and not mine? What idiocy.

Finally I took a passage from the article rather than reproduce the whole 600 plus words. It was a continuous piece, not snippets of a bunch of quotes. That is perfectly acceptable and the fact that you are attempting to make a diversionary song and dance about it shows just how desperate you are. To frame it as selective is just inane.

This is far more than you ever supply to backup your own arguments.

Really mate you need to give it a rest, you're not even making sense anymore.

Perhaps SteeleRedux is a bit of a classic...

Dear Canem Malum,

Nothing like a little snipe from the sidelines to brighten your day huh?

In case you are unfamiliar with the meaning of tosser it usually refers to someone who talks up big but doesn't deliver.

Why it so aptly applies to mhaze in this instance was because he deliver nothing in defence of his position even though he so stridently put it.

Part of it will be because one of his idols in Menzies was shown to have been a prolific defender of both Hitler and Mussolini and revealed a propensity for totalitarianism.

On the subject of skilled workers, imagine if the bulk of Public Service bureaucrats were to be Govt supporting instead of Labor supporting. Imagine the state of the economy & this Nation in general if all the political bias of these people was focussed on the incumbent administration !
That's why I am such a strong advocate for a National Service so that only those with some sense of responsibility & integrity can join the Public service.
It can simply not be argued that a term of NS would not be beneficial for all living here.

So Indy can we count you in for Seniors National Service? Me thinks not.

Paul1405,
Yes, but can we count on yours ?