I thought it might be interesting to get views
on what's happening with Putin and the Ukraine
and how others see the situation there.

Here's a link from the BBC that might help start
this discussion:

http://bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

How does this affect us?

Putin just wants peace,

A little piece of Georgia,
A little piece of Ukraine...

Two things:

* security for his homeland
* recognition of Russia as a great power.

Oh and he wants to achieve those things while the West is being run by the greatest pack of morons since Chamberlain/Daladier.

Putin has frequently bemoaned the "loss" 0f
the former Soviet occupied countries now
independent - Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Belarus, Georgia, and Ukraine, after the
Soviet Union collapsed. Of course he wants to
rebuild the Russian sphere of influence in
Eastern Europe. And equally he wants to show
to the West (and to his people) that Russia is
still a super-power.

I watched the breaking news on television and our
Prime Minister's speech of the actions that Australia
plans to take regarding the situation in the Ukraine
and how Australia plans to support its allies in
standing up to thugs and bullies like Putin - which
Australians have always done and will continue to do.

There are many Ukrainians in Australia who are rightly
concerned about their fellow countrymen, their families,
and friends, in the Ukraine. And rightly so. Sanctions
will be placed on Russia. Putin has to learn that he
cannot simply go in and take over sovereign neighbours
at his whim. The free people of the world will not allow
this to happen.

What Putin doesn't want is Ukraine joining NATO.

We shouldn't be affected at all. Morrison said no troops, but today there were murmurings about what America might ask for. All media yap so far. Our concern is China, not Russia; and there is no reason for any Western country which has lived by democratic means to waste time, money and lives on countries that have not lived by the same rules.

If I was an American, whose country could be involved, I would be with Tucker Carlson in asking why Biden is so interested in the Ukraine border, but totally disinterested in America’s own southern border.

Incidentally, I think that Putin is as insane as Xi Jinping, who refers to Putin as his "most intimate friend". Yuck!

I also hope that sense prevails, and I believe Xi might not actually be supporting an attack on a 'sovereign country', because Xi is a bit jittery about China's sovereignty. Could be all talk off course. Fingers crossed. The sovereignty bit could bode well for the China/Australian relationship. We might get to stick with jaw jaw, not war war.

Here's a few key points from an article given in
the link below.

1) Russia has sent troops into eastern Ukraine.
Our government is now considering a range of visa
options for those people who might want to flee
any future conflict. There are many Ukrainians living
in Australia.

2) The Prime Minister Scott Morrison has said that
Australia will be in " lock-step" with other nations
imposing sanctions on Russia.

Australia needs to support its allies. China is eyeing
Australia and for our safety we will need the support
of our allies.

http://abc.net.au/news/2022-02-22/scott-morrison-russia-troops-eastern-ukraine/100850254

Australians have always stood up to thugs and bullies.
Hopefully they always will.

I've got to confess that listening to our Prime
Minister - I felt proud of his logic in standing
up to a bully like Putin who will use any pretense
to occupy the now independent sovereign countries
and rebuild Russian sphere of influence in
Eastern Europe and demonstrate to the West and to
Russians that they are still a super power.

Hopefully he will not be allowed to succeed.

Australia will immediately begin placing sanctions on Russian individuals and key entities in relation to the Ukrainian invasion.

The government will also amend the existing sanction regime on Crimea and Sevastopol to include the so-called independent republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

ttbn,

Thanks for that.

The Canberra Times gives the latest news on
Australian diplomats evacuating from Ukraine:

http://canberratimes.com.au/story/7629960/australian-diplomats-evacuate-from-ukraine/?cs=14231

Never the less, the so far announced actions are just really playing
with Russia. It is a shame that they have not disabled Russia's access
to the Swift System.
If they did that to buy or sell anything would mean that Russians would
have to carry suitcases full of bank notes or gold bars and travel the
world with them to make or receive payments.
Their merchant freighters and aircraft could not buy fuel unless they
had the local currency or US dollars.
No foreign aircraft could land in Russian territory unless they had cash.
There might be contracts in telecommunications that would fail without
access to the Swift system. What else would fall over ?
Now that the FBI has cracked open the Bit coin system they could not
rely on the block chain system to transfer money, the Yanks would just
confiscate it.
I believe the above is accurate. I mentioned this to an ex banker
friend and he just sucked in his breath through his teeth.

Interesting bit of information Bazz.

It will take a while to process it.

Sorry Bazz that's not the way SWIFT works.

Sure, if the US moved to remove Russian banks from the SWIFT system, it would make life more difficult for them. Equally, it would make life more difficult for those buying stuff from Russia eg Germany buying Putin's natural gas.

But the idea of them being forced to operate in cash is wrong. They would just have to find outside banks who'd do the transactions for them. Some Chinese banks have already indicated they'd like that business.




All this talk of sanctions doing this and sanctions doing that is so much gumpf. They, sanctions, did precisely nothing when Putin took Crimea. They did nothing when he attacked Georgia. It'll do nothing now because Biden and the kiddies in charge haven't got the balls or inclination to do what needs to be done.

Mike Pompeo spelled it out yesterday. The US should immediately restart all its fracking facilities and pipelines. It should work to close-down the Russian pipelines. It should accelerate the export of fossil fuels to Europe so that Europe wouldn't be dependent on Putin. It should push the price of oil back down to $50 where it was when the adults were in charge. That would be truly devastating for Russia. You know, all the things Trump was doing and the current dill in the White House stopped. But they won't do that because they are owned by the climate cult.

Ponder this. During three of the last four presidencies, Putin has felt empowered enough to make territorial grabs. I'll leave you to work out the odd man out of that sorry bunch.

Russia & China have strong leaders, let's hope America finds one too before long !
The World can not afford only two World powers !

"When Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014, rebels backed by President Putin seized big swathes of the east and they have fought Ukraine's army ever since."

Would any of you know-it-alls like to please prove on a basis of merit these accusations of 'invasion'?

Crimea’s return to the Russian Federation was completed in strict compliance with international law as a result of the free expression of will by the residents of the peninsula, when over 96 per cent of the people voted for reunification with Russia.

Crimea Votes Overwhelmingly to Join Russia
http://youtu.be/95-QItX3I5A
This is from the Wall Street Journal,
Who's lying? Can't both be right

Why is that some kind of Jedi mind trick?
Is this the level of global politics now?

We all watched the news 8 years ago.
What are you trying to do just tell lies like no-one on the planet was actually watching the TV or news reports?
When did Russia invade? LIES

So much lies and bs hardly even know where to start with that BBC article.

If they get the 'invade' part wrong, well not much point even bothering trying to set things straight because it would make no difference anyway.
You people talking 'invasion' as opposed to 'right to self-determination' have already lost all sense of yourselves anyway.

Par for the course in 2022

I want you all to tell me how any of this makes sense?

Lets ask some hard questions, shall we?

Those of you who support our 'western democracy' and wish to wage war against these so-called 'autocratic' regimes, Russia, China, North Korea..
The West has run out of easy targets to pick on.
Still struggling with Syria, Iran and Venezuela.

Now it wants to wage war against nuclear powers and permanent members of the UN security council?

How do you all think its going to go?
Who here wants to go to war against Russia and China?
Are you willing to risk the potential outcome of a war against Russia and China for the sake of your beliefs?

If the West wants to wage war against autocratic regimes, then how is it planning to do this?

Should we just declare WWIII now, or should we just keep up with the coloured revolutions?

The West started this, deals were in place and the US went back on all those deals.

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University

The US started this new arms race when it broke the terms of the INF treaty in 2010 putting Tomahawk missiles in Poland and Romania.
http://archive.mid.ru/en/web/guest/foreign_policy/news/-/asset_publisher/cKNonkJE02Bw/content/id/1428135

"In February 2007, the United States started formal negotiations with Poland and the Czech Republic concerning construction of missile shield installations in those countries for a Ground-Based Midcourse Defense System. However, in April 2007 the Washington Post reported that 57% of Poles opposed the plan. -

Mhaze, I did what I should have done before I wrote that post and
looked it up.
Still depending on where the Swift computer is located, if a government
made it illegal to handle message traffic for Russian banks etc then
it would require a lot of work to setup alternative arrangements.
Even if the Chinese stepped in it has to end up somewhere and that
could be made illegal.
More messy than I envisured but would make things difficult.

- Russia threatened to place short-range nuclear missiles on its borders with NATO, if the United States went ahead with plans to deploy 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar in the Czech Republic. In April 2007, then-President Putin warned of a new Cold War if the Americans deployed the shield in Central Europe. Putin also said that Russia was prepared to abandon its obligations under the Nuclear Forces Treaty of 1987 with the United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_missile_defense_complex_in_Poland

Since then we've seen NATO expansion, and breaking of the INF treaty, Western coloured revolution in Ukraine
(we can look at the facts there if you like)

What happens when Russia and China accept that war is already being waged against them in this 'war against autocratic regimes', and that they're already justified in a response to Western aggression?

They might attack the West themselves in open warfare first.

Our Western nation lack the moral imperative to fight a war like that.
Look at the world we live in.

China and Russia might not be perfect, but they do care about their own people first; Russia cares about Russians, China cares about the Chinese, where our nation has become so diluted with globalist ideas and full of immigrants that our troops aren't even sure what we're fighting for, and that's why they kill themselves.

We care more about gays and immigrants.

Western nations have been polarised by the exact system we claim to support.
In a 2 horse race, there can only be 2 sides.
The nationalist side (Yes white male)
And the immigrant side.

The democrats take power by combining all the minority groups into one group, big enough to dislodge and ostricise the nationalist, and PMs are installed in our western countries after they've done the globalist course at the WEF.

We don't have democracy and we don't decide anything at all in our country anymore.
Now your all keen to start WWIII over some sense of moral values?
Who here wants a war with Russia and China?
Because maybe if we push hard enough, we just might get one.

Mikhail Gorbachev once stated:

"Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about
all you hear about Glasnost and Perestroika and
and democracy in the coming years.
They are primarily for outward consumption. There
will be no significant internal changes in the
Soviet Union other than for cosmetic purposes.
Our purpose is to disarm the Americans and let
them fall asleep."

The old methods that the Soviet Union applied
in the past did not work. The former occupied
Soviet republics voted with their feet and the
Soviet Union collapsed. Putin is now trying to
re-instate the past.
It's not going to work. Times have changed.

Good points ttbn- the quote about Gorbachev was also interesting.
The only ones that will look after the integrity of Anglo-British communities are us Anglo-British- otherwise we will lose our territories our culture our very genetic heritage. Thanks for standing up for us ttbn- Kudos.

We can stand in solidarity with other cultures that want to protect their culture and territories from dissolution.

"Australia will immediately begin placing sanctions on Russian individuals and key entities in relation to the Ukrainian invasion.

The government will also amend the existing sanction regime on Crimea and Sevastopol to include the so-called independent republics of Donetsk and Luhansk."

Invasion? (Rolls eyes)
If there is one, then it hasn't actually happened yet.
Tank crews and troops have already rolled in hours ago, I've seen the footage.

Donetsk and Luhansk declared themselves independent republics in 2014.
And Putin didn't just recognise the areas the separatists currently hold.
He recognised and accepted into Russia the ENTIRE Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

- So now we have this issue where the Ukrainians are actually occupying Russia, (in what was the former Ukraine prior to 2014)
And Putin may just decide he needs the Ukrainians to get out.

He can send tanks into the Ukrainian held areas of Donetsk and Luhansk, and I'm starting to think he may well do so yet.

I probably would to get it done, not just half-done.
But Ukraine has Javelins now though, so some Russian tank crews are likely going to cop it if he does so.

This is the 'invasion':
Putin accepting into Russia the entire Donestsk and Luhansk regions which claimed independence in 2014,
INCLUDING parts that Ukrainians currently occupy.

Will Putin now move to tell Ukraine they have 72 hours to get out?

It could get messy you know.
The West including US, Europe and other Western nations, including us have given military support to Ukraine.

If Putin sends the tanks in to secure the rest of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, Ukrainians are going to defend it using weapons given by US, Europe and the West, which will automatically put US, Europe and the West into a state of war with Russia.

There was a reminder this morning of the Australian connection with Ukraine via the shooting down of Flight MH17. Someone got away with that, too.

I listened to the Prime Minister this morning
and the sanctions that are going to be imposed
on the Russians. He's right - there has to be
consequences on the behaviour of Putin and his
regime. There is no excuse for the invasion
of a sovereign country. The feeble excuse that
they are going in as "peace-keepers," just does
not wash.

The free countries of the world need to stand together
on this and not stand or tolerate this illegal
behaviour.

Putin and his cohorts need to back off!

Foxy wrote:

"The free countries of the world need to stand together
on this and not stand or tolerate this illegal
behaviour."

Let's not confuse things and adopt Cold War rhetoric. The US will accept support from any nation regardless of how free it is. Biden has called for a conference of the democratic nations and has included Duterte's Philippines in his invitation. Duterte is no more a democrat or for freedom than Putin.

I think Putin should be curbed, and those nations that think Putin's Russia should be curbed should stand together whether or not they are free countries.

Pro Russian rebels have controlled the
east Ukrainian region since 2014.

US President Joe Biden stated:

"To put it simply: Russia just announced that it is
carving out a big chunk of Ukraine. Who in the Lord's
name does Putin think gives him the right to declare
new so-called countries on territory that belonged to
his neighbours. This is a flagrant violation of
international law and demands a firm response from
the international community."

The Canberra Times has more:

http://canberratimes.com.au/story/7631999/australia-joins-us-europe-in-imposing-sanctions-on-russia/

I think Putin should be curbed,
davidf,
I don't know Putin thinks nor would I ever claim to know what goes through his mind but from what I have witnessed my guess is he simply doesn't want to see Russia descending into another America or West.
I also think that if Russia weakens any more, World peace for want of a better description may be a thing of the past.
We need more than two Super Powers to keep things in check. Would Ukraine be able to fill that gap ? Not if they're desiring to be Western !

"There was a reminder this morning of the Australian connection with Ukraine via the shooting down of Flight MH17. Someone got away with that, too."

I've never been convinced that Pro-Russian separatists even did it.

I used to watch this youtube channel George Webb where he dug right into things.
Something that came out at the time which normal at-home news watchers never saw was a report and photos of a Ukrainian-owned fighter jet which took off armed and came back with 1 missile missing, at the exact time the Malaysian flight came down.

The interesting thing about the Malaysian airlines flight, is that the colours on the tail make it look very much like PUTIN'S plane.

Now, I'm not saying I know what happened, because I don't, I wasn't there.

But if there's truth to the info about the fighter jet, then it certainly seems possible to me the Ukrainians tried to take down Putin's plane and messed up, taking down the Malaysian flight instead by accident.

the colours on the tail make it look very much like PUTIN'S plane.
Armchair Critic,
That's the most plausible I've read thus far ! It'd be interesting to see if Putin's plane was airborne at that time.

Hey Individual,
Yes I believe it was airborne and in the vicinity at the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I know it's true for a fact, both sides might be willing to lie in a situation where they might be considered responsible for bringing a passenger jet down, but it's possible that's what actually happened.

The news would never bring this stuff to your attention.
They don't investigate, they just report what others are already saying.
This is especially true when there's a narrative to keep or a crisis that can be exploited.

Armchair Critic,
I looked up President Putin's plane on Google & it shows a 4-engined aircraft but I'm pretty sure it's possible that he also has a large twin engine one at his disposal. MH17 was a 777.

David F., mentioned the rhetoric of the Cold War.
I recall Madeleine Albright former US Secretary
of State saying words to the effect that

"The goal of a Europe - whole, free, and at peace
remains as vital today as it did during the cold war."

Putin's actions have brought together the policy makers
and experts from around the globe for a timely decision
of how to achieve that goal for the 21st century.

Ah, yes, dear Madeline Albright. Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it".....wins Presidential Medal of Freedom from Obama.

davidf wrote :"Biden has called for a conference of the democratic nations and has included Duterte's Philippines in his invitation. Duterte is no more a democrat or for freedom than Putin."

I think he's also invited Trudeau. Seems anyone can go.

______________________________________________________________________

I mentioned earlier the obviously unwanted fact that during 3 of the last 4 presidencies, Putin had grabbed territory. Only Trump kept him in check.

This explains further... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMJ_wKnRfD8&t=296s

Overnight Ukraine's foreign minister lamented another president's betrayal. In 1994 Clinton had persuaded Ukraine to give up its nukes based on US security guarantees. Which of course are now useless.

This fact also explains why no other nations (eg North Korea, Iran, Israel) will ever surrender their nukes.

____________________________________________________________________

Part of the problem with Ukraine as to why it was never accepted into NATO is its rank corruption and lack of democracy. That corruption has many causes and beneficiaries but some of those causes and beneficiaries were Western leaders. eg the Biden family....
http://strategypage.com/on_point/20220216161357.aspx

Look at thr reports and videos including putins speech talking about terrorism while himself being a Cheif of terrorism to civillians in Ukraine.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10545641/Putins-gives-chilling-warning-West-early-morning-TV-broadcast.h

Foxy (successfully!!) copied a quote from Gorby....

"Gentlemen, comrades, do not be concerned about all you hear about Glasnost and Perestroika and and democracy in the coming years. They are primarily for outward consumption."

Historians and those versed in reading politics know that you rarely rely on what politicians say but rather what they do. Gorbachev, in this quote, was talking to party members who were concerned about their loss of power and prestige and he was trying to alleviate their fears. He was also lying to them. Anyone with any knowledge of the period knows that perestroika and, especially, glasnost had a massive effect on Russia.

By chance I was in Moscow the week Gorbachev took over. And I visited Moscow, St Petersburg (called Leningrad back then) and various regional areas (primarily Zagorsk) every 9 months or so for the next 5 years. My own experience, together with other histories, shows that, while perestroika failed to kick start the economy, glasnost had a severe effect of revealing to Russians how badly they'd been lied to over the decades. This weakened the state and hastened the end.

Without glasnost, the USSR might have plodded along for another decade or two. Along-side the pressure exerted by Reagan (and to a lesser extent Thatcher), glasnost was real and one of the major causes for the fall of the Soviet Union.

Why not suggest Western Australia become an independent Nation or Texas or Florida etc become independent Nations ?
How much support would our PM or the US president give to that idea ?

Dear Foxy,

There is much ado about protecting the borders of Ukraine from violation. Very little attention has been given to the origin of those borders. There is a nation state called Ukraine. There are a people called Ukrainians. They are not the same although they are both Slavs. The borders of the national entity called Ukraine were drawn by the USSR with little or no attention to the ethnic composition of the people within those borders. Ukraine was just an administrative unit within the Soviet. When the United Nations was formed the USSR was reluctant to join. To induce the USSR to join the USSR was given three votes in the General Assembly. Stalin designated Ukraine, Belorussia and the rest of the Soviet to hold those three votes. Like many ethnic groups the Ukrainians are scattered throughout Europe mainly in eastern Europe. The mother of my three children is a descendant of Ukrainians who lived in the easternmost part of what was Czechoslovakia. In Ukraine itself there is a mixture of ethnic Russians, ethnic Ukrainians as well as other ethnic groups. Ukraine became an independent nation when the Soviet broke up.

There are reports that the Russian forces are entering Ukraine with lists of dissidents and gays to be executed. I doubt the truth of those reports. However, they may be true. However, what is true is that the borders of Ukraine are just the borders of an administrative unit of what used to be the USSR. There is nothing sacred about them.

This is taken from Time magazine:

"Putin knows that the West has never really held
him really accountable for his past actions. Since
2008, he's invaded Georgia, taken Crimea, occupied
Eastern Ukraine, bombed hospitals in Syria, shot
down a passenger plane, and hacked governments and
businesses around the world."

"The West's response? A few sanctions, removed from
the G - 8, and the expulsion of a handful of
diplomats."

"The West's weakness has given Putin the feeling that
he can do whatever he wants with hardly any meaningful
consequences. The West now appears stuck between
further appeasement or a possible military confrontation,
for which there is absolutely no appetite."

"Since taking power Putin has stolen an enormous amount
from the Russian state, from businesses, from private
Russian citizens... He is estimated to be the richest
man in the world and since 2000 has stolen at least
$200 billion for himself, and possibly much more.
Putin does not hold any of this money in his own name..."

Time magazine suggests how the West can stop Putin.
The West should hit Putin where
it would hurt Putin the most. Go after his money.
An interesting idea.

There's more at the following link:

http://time.com/6143645/how-to-stop-putin-invastion-ukraine/

It's worth a read.

Dear David F.,

Ukraine is an independent country and any incursion into
an independent country is an invasion no matter what
the population mix may be. However, the majority -
77% of those who live in Ukraine identify as ethnically
Ukrainian while 17% as Russian.

I did read a comment that the Ukrain was established by a
Prince dgfhgdsky in the 16th century.
Might be worth a bit of search time.

Here is another link that explains why Ukraine
is important to America and its allies. Why it
matters what happens there and why we all should be
concerned:

http://thehill.com/opinion/national-security-584646-whats-at-risk-in-ukraine-and-why-it-matters-to-america-and-its

Sorry here it is again:

http://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/584646-whats-at-risk-in-ukraine-and-why-it-matters-to-america-and-its-allies

Dear Foxy,

Of course you are right. No nation should casually invade another nation regardless of the way in which the nation’s borders were established. However, it can lend an insight if we read history written by someone with different allegiances and background from ours.

I am reading “Revolutions”. It is a book containing short pieces about 24 revolutions. The bit about the Haitian Revolution was written by Bayyinah Bello, a Haitian history professor. She dismisses the American Revolution.

“By contrast, [with the slave revolutions] what is called the American Revolution is not a true revolution. This battle between Eurochristian cousins in Britain and on the eastern seaboard of North America to determine who would get a greater percentage of the wealth generated by the abuse and humiliation imposed upon enslaved non-whites was no revolution, but a family feud that paid little attention to questions of justice, human rights or freedom. Before, during and after this family feud, Eurochristians in the Americas and Europe stuck to the same mentality: I must have it all; any inhumane behaviour is justifiable; non-white peoples are sub-human.”

Of course she has lumped all whites together as many whites lump all blacks together. In the early history of European colonization there were those who thought the way non-whites were treated was wrong. Bartolomé de Las Casas (c. 1484–July 18, 1566) protested the treatment of indigenous people as did Roger Williams (c.21 December 1603—between 27 January and 15 March 1683) who also opposed slavery.

However, it reminded me of my feelings toward Davy Crockett when I was a teenager. Disney glorified Crockett and the struggle at the Alamo. However, when I read a history written by a Mexican I found that the Mexicans abolished slavery in 1829. Many Americans who came to Texas wanted to keep slaves, and their war of independence from Mexico had as its cause, the same cause as Texas seceding from the US to join the Confederacy, the preservation of slavery.

http://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/584646-whats-at-risk-in-ukraine-and-why-it-matters-to-america-and-its

Foxy do you type out the links yourself?
If so you really should learn to cut and paste.

The reason your first link was wrong was because you mistakenly used a hyphen instead of a forward slash in the url in-between 'security' and '584646'

I hate those 'Here's what you need to know / Here's what you need to think' articles.
I find those opinion pieces contemptuous, treating people like 5 years olds.
I don't care about opinions pieces, I'm only interested in facts.
News are supposed to be journalists and investigate.
The forum is about peoples opinions, news should stick to the facts and stop trying to manipulate opinions on things.

"Time magazine suggests how the West can stop Putin.
The West should hit Putin where
it would hurt Putin the most. Go after his money.
An interesting idea.

There's more at the following link:

http://time.com/6143645/how-to-stop-putin-invastion-ukraine/

It's worth a read."

I read it....its rubbish. Utterly unresearched and devoid of any concrete evidence. Basically what it says is that if you turn Putin into a pauper, he'll be more compliant. Even if it were possible to get at Putin's wealth (spoiler alert - its not) the second western leaders did it, all their nefarious doings would also be exposed. At least then we'd find out about all of the Biden family's corruption. That's why it'll never happen.

"Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I’ll show you a crook."
Harry S. Truman

Biden has done nothing with his life outside politics. He started off poor and is now a multi-millionaire. QED

Armchair, I have been trying to get Foxy to use Tinyurl.com for years
all to no avail.

Anyway the the Ming admiral Zhèng Hé 郑和
sailed an enormous fleet into South Asia in the 15th century.
I read a lot about the expedition many years ago and there is evidence
that they reached Brazil. Chinese style works for repair and cleaning
ships hulls were found larger than for any European ships of the time.
There have been no reports of any of the fleet reaching Australia.
However I would not put it past Xi Jing to make up a story that the
fleet did reach Australia and claimed the country.
After all if it works for Putin ----

Hi Bazz,
I think you tried on several occasions to get me to use it as well.
Occasionally I will, but only if the address is extra long.

Funny you mentioned cleaning ships hulls -
I watched this documentary a few weeks back about Trinidad.
How wooden sailing ships would need corking from woodworm in warmer waters, and they would use this huge source of tar/asphalt which they found there to make the ships watertight.

As for China making up a story to claim Australia, well all politicians seem adept at fibs so nothings new.
Even the news is about 50% truth / 50% lies these days.

Anyway, here's that documentary if you ever need something to watch.

The Real Story Of The Caribbean Oil Empire | Oil And Gas Pioneers | Timeline
http://youtu.be/CbAW5LOgLw0

The first causality of war is truth. Look at all the conflicting truths we have in this discussion. There is no easy solution to what is now a complex problem. All I know is innocent lives will be sacrificed on both sides in the name of truth, and what is right.

Here is the truth:

http://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/584646-whats-at-risk-in-ukraine-and-why-it-matters-to-america-and-its

Poor Ukraine.

Missiles envelop Kyiv, Kharkiv.
This is just the beginning. Russians have captured the
Chernobyl nuclear plant.

" Bozhe, dopomozhy nam."
( God help us).

It is horrible, and nothing we can say can make it better.

Thank you David F.,

It is horrible.

And nothing we can say can make it better.

However, the former US President Donald Trump is
saying a great deal. And it's frightening.
Donald Trump has described Putin's actions as
"very savvy" and a "genius" move. By sending in
"the strongest peace force I've ever seen to the area."

And this from a possible future US President?

Perhaps if Trump loses the next US election he
expects Putin to save him? Either that or more
realistically - Trump probably has vast investments
in Russia that he is protecting and the reasons he's
grovelling to Putin. That would make sense.

As I said elsewhere, Foxy has utterly misunderstood Trump's meaning. Saying a move is savvy or genius isn't the same as saying you support it. Unfortunately that seems to elude poor old Foxy.

Never fear, our fearless PM has announced a fresh round of sanctions or Russia,
Putin is trembling and will soon see the error of his ways.

I think I've seen one of the few useful comments from Paul1405- I probably just haven't been looking closely enough. Kudos

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9766#330913

The Chinese and the Russians have been probing the west for a while- like flashers at the train station.

But it's interesting to consider that parts of the West are on the side of the Chinese- delicious hall of mirrors.

I found this interesting. It might even be accurate.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/vladimir-putins-revisionist-history-of-russia-and-ukraine

Foxy,

Your sources only report on half of the issue:

"Trump lauded the move in an interview on the conservative radio program The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, calling Putin "a guy who's very savvy."

The ex-president claimed Putin would have never thought to invade while he was president, blasting Biden for what he called “no response” sanctions, though Trump did not suggest what punishments he thought Russia should receive."

Essentially, he was pointing out the feeble response by Biden to the Russians.

Praising or making excuses for dictators when
a conflict that could destabilize Europe is
happening seems like odd behaviour from people
that are supposed to be pro democracy. Russia's
attack on the Ukraine is a global crisis and an
assult on democracy.

Former US President Donald Trump has opted not to root
for democracy. Instead he praised Russian President
Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine as "very savvy."
"Oh that's wonderful." "genius" and "How smart is that?"
How smart is that? Russian aggression likely to result
in the deaths of many - not many people would consider that
so smart.

But then former president Trump took the Russian President's
word over US intelligence agencies at the 2018 Summit
with Putin in Helsinki.

The people of the Ukraine deserve to have people in a
country like ours and the countries of our allies
united in support of Ukraine. It's a shame that some
Trump supporters on this forum still try to excuse
the behaviour of Russia or the actions of former US
President Trump with words like - " you misunderstood,"

"It may not always be clear where the right side of history
is, but in this case and in this moment - it's clearer than
crystal where it's not!"
(Rex Huppke).

Hmmm, there's a thought;
Whisper could be used to see if MH17 was in the vicinity of Putin's
aircraft, just as MH370 has been tracked.
Trouble is I think you would need a time & place to start tracking.

For those not in the know wspr has a waterfall display and a disturbance
or interference shows a defect in the smoothness.
I have not used it myself but I might look for the software.
It is available.

Foxy,

I never claimed that you "misunderstood" rather that you misrepresented.

You berate Trump based on a partial quote which does not represent what he meant at all.

Putin outmanoeuvred Biden just as the Taliban did. Biden has essentially given Putin the green light.

Foxy,

Do you truly not understand that recognising Putin's move as being clever isn't the same as supporting that move? Or is it just the latest case of your inability to admit error when its as plain as the nose on your face?

At first, I did not believe this was a religious war but if you look a picture in - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10550271/I-target-number-one-Zelensky-says-Russian-kill-squads-inside-Kyiv-searching-him.html?ito=push-notification&ci=n-O3zHduPp&cri=WGuofV2QtA&si=25232452&xi=d81fc6b2-3ef9-4105-aa77-25522ec1101c&ai=10550271 You will find the Chechen selected military involved in Muslim prayers in the Forest of Ukraine, before seeking out individual Ukraineians to kill.

Hi individual,
"I looked up President Putin's plane on Google & it shows a 4-engined aircraft but I'm pretty sure it's possible that he also has a large twin engine one at his disposal. MH17 was a 777."

Yes that kind of throws a spanner in the works of that argument.
If you're close enough to see the planes colours surely you would recognise the difference in number of engines as well, one would think.
But Putins plane was in the vicinity at the time, I'm fairly certain of this - both were flying over Ukraine, heading into southern Russian airspace.

Kudos Bazz on the Whisper tech- still working on the modus operandi- but the hardware looks simple enough.

Presumably the Whisper/ MLS raw location data from MH370 is stored somewhere on amateur radio systems and can be used to determine the flight path. Perhaps a needle/ haystack search.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WSPR_(amateur_radio_software)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System

PS- There was that popular book about the Chinese 15th century fleet "1423" from memory but there was reference to them being flat bottomed ill suited to Ocean voyages. Though you may know something I don't. The dust cover advised the Chinese expedition prompted Marco Polo's expedition along the Silk Road later the same century

>>"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down your weapons and surrender to avoid bloodshed and unnecessary victims. Otherwise you will be bombed."

"Russian warship, go f- yourself," came the reply.

Anton Herashchenko, an adviser to the interior minister, said Russia then began strikes.<<

http://tinyurl.com/mssyxyv4
Brave or Foolish?
Maybe both.

Probably wont be too long before Putin's elite tank army gets into Kiev.
http://tinyurl.com/ysbjunfp

Calem, As I said I have not used WSPR or even looked into it.
I know roughly how it works.
From the callsigns the location of the stations can be found on
qrz.com therefore the path is defined as a Great Circle path.
The point along the trace where the disturbance occurs gives the
distance from the transmitter.
There must have been some software written that given a known starting
point and time it searches the database for signals for that time
that has a disturbance at the correct distance from the transmitter
and a receiver on the Great Circle Path.
Quite a trick, I am sure. I suspect that it has not been written by
someone known to us, as I am fairly certain I would have heard about it.
With MH370 the time of the last beacon transmission and location
was known accurately so that would have been the starting point for
the tracking program.
As transmissions ceased the program would have had to search the database for another transmission to use.
Very tricky indeed.

The Soviet Regime was a blood-stained machine
Which murdered millions as simply routine
Might is Right was their slogan of choice
Dissenting cries did not have a voice

Putin like Stalin are two of a kind
Yet some in the West to this are still blind
Putin like Stalin will take what he wants
He will kill and destroy those who fight in response

The world can't allow this rampage of terror
Not protecting Ukraine would be a huge error
The world must link hands as others have done
Bring down from within for this to be won

Russians must show they won't tolerate
Going back to the past, to fear and hate
Russians must say, 'We want peace not war'
And proclaim very loudly that war they abhor

The draconian systems must not return
There are lessons there from which we can learn
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Only then can we in this world relax

Just heard on News Radio a warning to the West from a Ukrainian academic. Putin could attack any country. While the West has been fussing over climate change, identify politics, perverts and critical race theory, Russian has been preparing for conflict. We need to grow up and pull our fingers out.

Thanks Bazz for your explanation- yes I considered the call signs- the wave amplitude/ direction- etc- I suspect that commercial aircraft don't use amateur radio codes- it sounds as it the scientist that suggested this search strategy had a plan- perhaps using the Mechanical Turk service to convert the meta-data to electronic form.

To understand how Whisper works probably requires a bit more effort on my part. Amateur radio is pretty cool- but the term amateur really does a disservice to them.

I was reading Foxy's poem and was thinking about the syllabic nature of poetry- not an expert myself- but I found the following links that might be useful-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabic_verse

http://askinglot.com/do-syllables-matter-in-poetry

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/meter.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry#Forms

All that is required for evil to triumph is simply for good men to do nothing.

Biden's incompetence in Afghanistan and his weakness in failing to support Ukraine militarily is why Putin felt empowered to invade Ukraine.

Biden's approval rating is now at 40.8% and is tracking Trump's. The sooner this loser goes to an old age home the better.

The forums Trumpsters, aka Putinites, are having great difficulty justifying Putin's military invasion of Ukraine, and the murder of innocent people. I was heartened to see young Russians on the streets of Moscow protesting this invasion. Hope for a cease fire and a diplomatic resolution, before more blood is spilt, be it Ukrainian or Russian.

mhaze,

You asked me to understand Trump's recognition of Putin?

Here's my reply:

Donald Trump thinks that Putin is great
That Putin's smart, he's savvy, and also his mate
Trump has fallen into Putin's trap of honey
Which Putin's set up with the lure of money
The lure of investment in Russia provides
A greedy Yankee where his money can hide
It's not about politics, no siree bob,
It's about the money honey, and how much Trump can lob

Putin is not concerned for the people of Ukraine he calls them Nazi drug addidtcs and gays. He is eyeing the mineral wealth and agricultural wealth and port facilities of Ukraine. He will murder all who resist to get his hands on the territory. He considers the area part of the USSR and Russia not to be lost to NATO and the West.

http://www.azomining.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=47

Ukraine is currently home to more than 20,000 deposits of over 200 different types of minerals. These minerals include graphite, granite, coal, manganese, uranium, oil, natural gas, sulfur, rock and potassium salts, and nickel reserves. Iron and other ores are also found in several regions of Ukraine. Donbas, with an area of over 50,000 km2, is recognized as the coal base of Ukraine. Over 5% of the world’s iron ore reserves are found in Ukraine.

Ukraine has flourishing porcelain, metallurgical, and chemical industries that produce ceramics and building materials. It also has abundant resources of semiprecious and precious stones.

Ukraine is home to about 5% of the world’s mineral reserves. Globally, the country ranks fourth in the production of rutile, and fifth in the production of titanium sponge. It is also one of the world’s top four producers of gallium.

Ukraine has rich deposits of brimstone and mineral wax, extractions of potassium and rock salts have been carried out for centuries. Additionally, the Nikopol basin in Ukraine has the world’s largest manganese-ore fields. Natural gas and oil are concentrated at the Black Sea Coast-Crimea oil and gas-bearing regions and Dnipro-Donets.

The most critical metals produced in Ukraine include aluminum, iron, manganese, and titanium.

Putin is convinced that the West is in sharp decline and that the time for a new autocratic world order has arrived.

Putin is as Trump suggested smart enough to know that no one can stop
him because he is seen as a determined autocrat with nuclear weapons
in his kit bag.
The US cannot send troops there because he would say "I made the first strike".
I think he would use nukes at the first excuse.
I would hope he has been examined even remotely because he seems to be
disconnected from everything but his objective.
They will have to remove Russia from Swift no matter what effect it
has on Germany. The US and the ME and Australia have offered to send Natgas to Europe.

We need someone close to him he trusts, maybe a woman to take him out and also his war-mongering Generals.

Hello anyone home? [rolls eyes]

Russia Is United States’ Top Source Of Imported Gasoline
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenroberts/2022/02/24/russia-is-united-states-top-source-of-imported-gasoline/?sh=7dfeb301b184

They won't stop buying it, they just want everyone else to stop buying it.
OMG this world is completely retarded

Go on, impose the sanctions.

Lets see the price at the pump double (if it's not high already) and see how much everyone cares about a stupid war on the other side of the planet that has nothing to do with us.

When the price of EVERTHING goes up.

It'll do more damage to Europe, the US and everyone else - guaranteed.
- And I'm sure Russia factored the sanctions into their planning already.

Doesn't really matter anyway they're making heaps more off the higher oil and gas prices anyway,
Higher prices have already paid for Nordstream 2, before a drop ever gets delivered.

And I know something that is close to the heart of every mature Australian.
It's something they never ever stop talking about.

The price of petrol.
Which comes equal first place with the weather.

You oldies are about to shoot yourselves in the foot BIG TIME.
Whinging about the price of petrol is something you'll be busy with in the coming months.
Well don't whinge, you all begged for this.

What does Putin want?

A buffer between Russia and NATO and with the Ukraine being courted by/courting NATO, away goes the buffer.
NATO and the BIG West have been pushing Putin, now he’s shoving back.

Foxy,

Now you're just ranting with your latest fact free conspiracy theory.

I see Biden's approval rating sinking even further.

Approval ratings of rulers are momentary blips. When the Nazis were winning great victories Hitler's approval ratings were sky-high in Germany. What matters is the worth of what a ruler has and hasn't done not his or her approval rating.

Hi Foxy,

As I've said many times on the Forum I am a pacifist, and I always believe diplomacy is a far better pathway to solving national differences than war ever is. That's not to say I support aggression, I don't. Russia probably has some legitimate beefs concerning NATO/American build up on its boarders, who wants nuclear missiles pointed at them. Regardless of that Russia is wrong in invading Ukraine. The Ukrainians have every right to defend themselves from Russian aggression.

History tells us that military treaties, rather than making for a more peaceful world do the exact opposite, NATO is no exception. One of the problems I have with America is not only do they want to act as the world's "policeman", they also want to be the world's arbitrator of what's acceptable (to them) and what's not, what's right (to them) and what's not. When the cop tells you what the law will be, you have a serious problem, and that's how America acts in the world today.

I would trust Putin as far as I could throw him, I do trust Biden more.

Dear Paul,

I've had little sleep last night - tossing and turning
over what's happening in Ukraine. It's horrible.
A nightmare. It brings back memories of my youth and
the stories my parents told me. The horrific bombings,
the fleeing, the terror and searching for safety.

My heart goes out to the Ukrainian people both in the
Ukraine and here in Australia.

Hi Foxy and Issy,

I totally agree, it is the innocent people who suffer in war, people who have no say in decision making, no control over events. Trust in those you don't know is a big ask.

News my way, my right eye was done Wednesday, out the same day, doc looked on Thursday, said ok, no driving, come back next Wednesday, keep using the drops. I want to see some improvement before I let him poke the left eye.

Here in Brisbane, rain, rain and more rain, I'd say 400mm plus in 3 days on us, rain gauge useless, local roads flooded. Those near the Brisbane River getting flooded this morning on the high tide.

Hope Hassy is okay on the (lack of) Sunshine Coast, even if I want to turn him into cannon fodder, ha, ha.

Paul,
Should be OK, I’ve got 20/20 vision in the right eye now and the plastic insert lens shouldn’t deterioate.

Dear Paul,

Glad to hear that things went well.

My husband and I are due for our eye tests soon.

We're having our booster COVID shots on Monday
afternoon.

My younger brother rang me yesterday. He and his wife
are planning a trip to see us in Victoria in a couple
of weeks. Neither him nor his wife are vaccinated.
They're firmly anti-vaccers. And I don't know how to
tell him that we don't want to see him.

Am I wrong?

Hi Issy,

Got a bit of a shadow on the right side of the eye. Not sure if its from the work, or its from the eyelid. If its not gone by Wednesday I'll be telling him. I wear the dark glasses as told, but the nite patch is useless, falls off.

One thing that I am thankful for. I have not heard of anyone calling for prayers to deal with the rain or Ukraine.

I see that Putin's rapid strike is being bogged down and the hundreds of shoulder-launched anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles are destroying dozens of Russian tanks, helicopters and aircraft, and the pictures of dead Russian soldiers splayed on the ground are having an effect on the Russian people.

This is working so well that the US and Germany are shipping 1000s more missiles designed for guerilla warfare to the Ukrainians. Combined with freezing and confiscating Russian assets and cutting their banks' ability to trade this will soon become a nightmare similar to that Russia had in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

According to the News, the Ukrainian Government is offering arms to civilians if they wish to fight, now there’s a thought for any other country that may face invasion.
But the time to act is before the invasion.

Think Switzerland.

Hi Issy,

I didn't know the Ukrainians were armless, how do they play their ukes? If the Ruskies drink enough vodka they could be legless. I seen some Ukrainians filling bottles to throw at the Ruskies this morning, but will it work? Look at the price of vodka at the pump here, over 2 bucks a litre, and that's not even the good stuff!

We will do everything in our power to save the Ukrainians, but will Australians be prepared to go as far as paying 2 bucks, a litre, just to see the Ukrainians throwing the stuff at the Russians.

Foxy wrote:
"You asked me to understand Trump's recognition of Putin?

Here's my reply:

Donald Trump thinks that Putin is great...."

Well he didn't. He just didn't. You're making it up. He said Putin's move in recognising the independence of the Donbass was clever. Anyone with a reading level above year 8 knows that's not the same thing as saying the man is great.

Unfortunately, despite being utter rubbish, that was the most accurate part of Foxy's fantasy-land post.

Oh dear!!

Hilariously, Foxy thinks that for Trump its all about money when we know, as a matter of fact, that the Biden family have received bribes from Russia. But somehow Foxy never notices those facts.

Incidentally, while Trump rightly saw the recognition of the DonBass as a clever realpolitik move, he's also called the full-on invasion a major mistake.

" I have not heard of anyone calling for prayers"

If you only listen to atheists you only hear atheists....
http://www.wlwt.com/article/gov-dewine-announces-day-of-prayer-for-ukraine-orders-halt-to-state-purchase-and-sale-of-russian-vodka/39242432

and hundreds of other examples.

Things continue to go poorly for the Russian military. Certainly, the Ukrainians are mounting a defence that is surprising the Russians as well as the so-called experts in the west.

Kiev, according to Russian planning, would have already fallen by now and a puppet government would be forming. But that’s not happening. Its now reported that the Russian supply lines are straining under the delay with fuel and replacement armaments being in short supply. Even more surprisingly, its now confirmed that the Ukrainians have hit military targets in Russia and that the Turks have closed the Dardanelles to Russian shipping. Russia has mistakenly (?) hit shipping belonging to Japan and Turkey.

Russian attempts to secure airports near Kiev to allow for the quick movement of troops, have failed. It’s reported that several planes of elite troops have been downed and troops who did manage to land have been isolated. Its clear Russia has failed to achieve air superiority over Kiev.

The US has offered to evacuate Zelensky, but he refused…” I need ammunition, not a ride”. The guy’s reputation grows daily.

The west continues to flounder under equivocal leadership. SWIFT bans are on then off. Biden now admits that the sanctions were never going to deter Putin from invasion, having said the opposite a week ago. The legacy media pretend not to notice. (A US survey shows 62% of voters think Putin wouldn’t have done this against Trump - the legacy media pretend otherwise).

Other interesting developments:
Protests increase in Russia itself.
Marco Rubio hints at an undisclosed health problem with Putin
Anger grows over Chinese duplicity in giving US intelligence to Russia and the US’s foolishness in trusting China with that intelligence in the first place.
Elon Musk, friend of freedom, has repurposed Starlink over Ukraine and is gifting receivers to stop Russians from cutting Ukraine’s internet

mhaze,

You don't like my opinion on Trump?

Well okay.

Grab a chair and wait for me to care.

Didn't care yesterday.
Don't give a sh** today
Probably won't give a f... tomorrow
As to what you think.

Dear mhaze,

It is true. There are people calling for prayers, and I have not heard of them. I really am not interested in listening to those that rely on nonsense. Natural happenings have natural causes. Rain falls because of climatic conditions. Climatic conditions are the result of natural actions including the acts of humans. People in churches on all sides which have churches pray for the success of the armies of their respective countries. As far as I know no war or atmospheric disturbance has been affected by prayer.

One thing we agree on is that Zelensky is acting in the way a leader should act. He is a contrast to the head of Afghanistan who bugged out and left others to take the brunt of the Taliban.

For many people this is all about right and wrong. Does Russia have the right to invade based on the view that Ukraine is an existential threat? Does Ukraine have the right to side with potential enemies of Russia? Self-determination v. national viability? And so on in myriad forms.

But in the end, none of that is critical. This, like all international issues, is all about realpolitik… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

I’ve previously discussed this in relation to the Melian Debate from 416BC… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos#The_Melian_Dialogue

Whether Putin has the right to invade is largely beside the point. He could and he did and all his claims to justify it are just fluff for his supporter’s consumption. Equally claims by Ukraine’s backers about rights and justice are beside the point as missiles strike apartment blocks.

Putin only understands power. He wants to make his state powerful both for prestige and safety. Powerful states are less likely to suffer assault than the unpowerful. The unpowerful states talk justice but, in reality, want protection from the powerful and/or to be left unmolested by the powerful. As the Athenians said… “"the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must".

The invasion occurred because Putin calculated that he could achieve his aims more easily and more quickly by force than by diplomacy. In the end, that is because he had calculated that the west, in its current configuration, was unlikely to do much to stop him. In that he’s been proven right. OTOH, he surely didn’t count on the resistance from Ukraine. The more they resist the more possible it becomes that elements in the west will be stirred to increase their help.

In realpolitik terms, the west is trying to show that aggression is costly in the hope that the lesson will be learned by others. When the US was strong, that was clear. But with the failures in Iraq and the debacle in Kabul, the idea that aggressors will pay a price is lost.

Meanwhile China, which also only thinks in realpolitik terms, looks on with interest.

Sorry Foxy, constantly, desperately saying how little you care just shows how much you care.

mhaze,

Grab that chair.

" As far as I know no war or atmospheric disturbance has been affected by prayer."

Tell that to Jericho. <grin>

"One thing we agree on is that Zelensky is acting in the way a leader should act. He is a contrast to the head of Afghanistan who bugged out ..."

Or the PM of Canada.... http://twitter.com/ajzeigler/status/1497572492118007812

Hi David,

A word, and a small offering to Tawhirimatea, god of the weather, including rain, and Tumatauenga, god of war, may be in order. Its good to deal with a specialist, rather than a GP at these times to get results. Although I must say Tawhirimatea is not doing a great job in our neck of the woods at the moment. I just heard a clap of thunder, and its raining again, could it be the displeasure of Tawhirimatea?

It all could have been so different !
Imagine that Yeltsin had appointed a true democrat as Prime Minister.
Russia might have close relations with western Europe.
Trade could have benefited both east & west because their combined
GDP would be very large.
NATO would have withered on the vine, or Russia might even have joined NATO.
Then Russia would have support for when China claims Vladivostok.
China has not forgotten the eastern areas. They recently blamed the
poor maps of early times.

Let me make a prediction:
Russia will withdraw into itself and a few local satellites.
China may give up on Taiwan or come to understanding with it.
China will take the opportunity to reestablish its historical claim
to most of Siberia. Russia will oppose and ask for help from the west.

Most of us will not be here to see this.

The Atlantic has characterized Putin's reactions
thus far as "unhinged." And they say they are
reminiscent of "the worst Soviet-era propaganda
in which white is black and the aggressor is a victim."

They point out that Putin "proclaimed the independence
of Donetsk and Luhansk regions in eastern Ukraine held by
Kremlin-backed rebels. That he's negated Ukraine's
sovereignty, culture, and identity. He's discredited Ukraine's
government as an illegitimate junta and blamed the country's
turning away from Moscow as orchestrated by the West."

The Atlantic advises that the West should not follow in
British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's footsteps
of appeasement from the 1930s. In the hope that Putin's
ambitions is limited to only Europe.

They feel that "ultimately it is the international liberal
order and its norms that he's after."

A frightening scenario.

Hi Bazz,

My prediction is that Putin will be removed
from office and will disappear.

Wishful thinking I guess.

Putin believes he is on a religious crusade to reinstate the old USSR and cleanse the area of drug additcs, nazi and gays, and he sent in a Muslim Chechen strike force of several humdred to capture and kill photographed Ukraine Government leaders cosying up to NATO.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10555871/Kyiv-comes-huge-aerial-artillery-bombardment-leaving-pulsing-glow-sk

As it is reported that 56 Russian tanks carrying this strike force was obliterated by the Ukrainian army. see photos

What does Trump think of the invasion according to the "Daily Mail",
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10555685/Trump-blasts-Biden-Putins-invasion-Ukraine.html

Trump said he was 'praying for the proud people of Ukraine' and expressed admiration for Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, calling him a 'brave man.'

'God bless them, they are indeed brave, as everyone understand this horrific disaster would never have happened if our election had not been rigged and if I was president.

Trump said he liked Zelensky 'because during that ridiculous impeachment waste of time the president of Ukraine said, "He did nothing wrong."'

Trump's first impeachment involved a call the ex-president made to the Ukrainian leader in July 2019. The president was accused of holding up military aid to Ukraine to push Zelensky to announce investigations into Joe and Hunter Biden.

'I was with Putin a lot, I spent a lot of time with him, 'It's a good thing to get along with people the ex-president protested.

'It would have been so easy for me to stop this travesty from happening,' Trump continued. 'He understood me, he understood I didn't play games.'

Much of Trump's one term in office was consumed by the FBI's investigation into Russian meddling in the 2020 election - and whether there was coordination with the Trump campaign.

The ex-president knocked Biden for being 'grossly incompetent' and poked fun at Biden's threat of sanctions, saying Putin's been getting sanctioned for the past 25 years.

Like several other CPAC speakers, Trump compared Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the U.S.'s own border crisis.

'Ukraine is a catastrophic disaster, but [it's] really interesting that so many Democrat politicians in Washington seem to be rushing to microphones to declare, "Ukraine's borders are sacred, we feel for Ukraine ... Ukraine's sovereignty must be protected at all costs,"' he noted. 'Even though they're destroying our own borders and our own sovereignty.'

'The Biden administration has spent months obsessing about how to stop an invasion of a country thousands of miles away,' Trump said. 'I believe americanss deserve a president who will stop an invasion of our country.

What the world needs to be reminded of is:

The USSR was a blood-stained regime
In which millions were murdered as a daily routine
Might is Right was their slogan of choice
Dissenting cries were not given a voice

History has written of the many disposed
The frozen infernos have now been exposed
Putin and Stalin are two of a kind
Yet some in the West to this are still blind

Putin like Stalin will take what he wants
He will kill and destroy those who fight in response
The world can't allow this rampage of terror
Not protecting Ukraine would be a huge error

First the Ukraine, then Romania
Followed by Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania
Do we want the USSR re-instated
Ruling Eastern Europe unabated?

The world must unite and be fully aware
That this is a battle that we all need to share
Putin must be stopped in his tracks
Otherwise no sovereign nation can truly relax

When I heard the body count of 150 people the day after the invasion- it doesn't seem that the Russian's are acting extremely aggressively- given that they have 200+ thousand soldiers in the Ukraine. From those casualties I expect that there hasn't been much resistance by the Ukrainians and much aggression from the Russian's.

Less than an Indian pile up.

Though maybe due to the communications shutdowns and the speed of the invasion the numbers are underestimated.

I'd be interested what Is Mise or O Sung Wu thoughts are on this

"The Atlantic and the Liberal Order"- If Putin is against the Liberal order I have to agree with him- whether I agree with his methods that's another thing- but who cares what The (apparently Socialist) Atlantic says anyway.

Here is a list of Russian Business Billionaires.

http://www.businessinsider.com/meet-10-oligarchs-hit-by-ukraine-russia-conflict-sanctions-putin-2022-2?utm_campaign=sf-bi-main&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&r=AU&IR=T#8-andrey-sergeyevich-puchkov-a-high-ranking-executive-at-vtb-bank-russias-second-largest-financial-institution-puchkov-also-has-stakes-in-two-moscow-based-real-estate-companies-18

A number of serious mistakes were made.

The west couldn't believe that Putin would be that stupid, and Putin thought that this would be a quick war and that the west would essentially do nothing as when it invaded Crimea.

That the US has a feeble President doesn't mean that others can't make things happen. Russian banks have their assets frozen and are cut off from the main international transactions system.

Putin has painted himself into a corner.

I am enjoying Youtube videos of Russians getting creamed by drones, stinger and javelin missiles. The 2 to 4 day planned lightning strike has been bogged down, Tanks etc are running out of fuel and supply convoys are being destroyed. There are 200+ Russian prisoners and apparently a division in Russia that has refused to be deployed.

The Ruble has fallen 30%, there is a run on the banks and suddenly Putin wants to negotiate.

Shadowminister wrote: "I am enjoying Youtube videos of Russians getting creamed by drones, stinger and javelin missiles."

Most of the Russian soldiers in Ukraine are conscripts who probably didn't feel they had a choice. I can only feel sadness for the killed and wounded whatever side they are on. Although I am no fan of Lenin when he said, "A bayonet is a weapon with a worker at both ends." he was almost right. Any weapon has a human being at both ends.

No war has all good people on one side and all bad people on the other.

‘Any weapon has a human being at both ends”

Not when the ones on the receiving end are animals.

Dear Is Mise,

You got me.

What does Putin want? Huge gas reserves in Ukraine terrorties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE

Hey Canem Malum,
"When I heard the body count of 150 people the day after the invasion- it doesn't seem that the Russian's are acting extremely aggressively- given that they have 200+ thousand soldiers in the Ukraine. From those casualties I expect that there hasn't been much resistance by the Ukrainians and much aggression from the Russian's."

Both sides are lying.
It doesn't do much for fighting morale if you hear that thousands of your countrymen are dead.
It's not a pretend war, it's a real one.
I think there's a whole lot more dead on both sides than either side is willing to admit.

On the Russian side you've got young 20 year olds in tanks who thought they were going for training exercises, and mothers at home wondering if they will see their sons again.
Sadly, many will not.

On the Ukrainian side they're asking citizens to stand in the firing line, and to put their wifes and kids lives in harms way to protect the leadership of the junta.
It's an ugly mess, and I fear this is only just the beginning.

Foxy,
What do you have to say about the arming of civilians?

>>Overall, it appears that nearly everywhere, in many regions of the world where the United States brought its law and order, this created bloody, non-healing wounds and the curse of international terrorism and extremism. I have only mentioned the most glaring but far from only examples of disregard for international law.

This array includes promises not to expand NATO eastwards even by an inch. To reiterate: they have deceived us, or, to put it simply, they have played us. Sure, one often hears that politics is a dirty business. It could be, but it shouldn’t be as dirty as it is now, not to such an extent. This type of con-artist behaviour is contrary not only to the principles of international relations but also and above all to the generally accepted norms of morality and ethics. Where is justice and truth here? Just lies and hypocrisy all around.

Incidentally, US politicians, political scientists and journalists write and say that a veritable “empire of lies” has been created inside the United States in recent years. It is hard to disagree with this – it is really so. But one should not be modest about it: the United States is still a great country and a system-forming power. All its satellites not only humbly and obediently say yes to and parrot it at the slightest pretext but also imitate its behaviour and enthusiastically accept the rules it is offering them. Therefore, one can say with good reason and confidence that the whole so-called Western bloc formed by the United States in its own image and likeness is, in its entirety, the very same “empire of lies.”<<

- Part of Vlad Putin's speech

[Cont.]
You probably won't hear any of the above info in our media, do you know why?
- Because Russian points of view is more or less banned.
http://www.rt.com/russia/550700-australia-suspends-rt-broadcast/

They will call others dictators for banning free press, but they do the same things themselves right here, they ban people coming here to hold events just because they have opinions that don't parrot the narrative.

They banned Novak Djokovic because they thought he might embolden anti-vax sentiment, like its a crime to have ones own opinion.

I blame the left for all this. Social justice.
That the kind of justice one demands when no laws are broken.
Leftism is Authoritarianism.

They need to look in the mirror because they became the exact thing they claimed to oppose.

I think Putin may have miss-stepped though, invading the whole of Ukraine instead of just defending Donbass and Luhansk.
I understand why he did it, the West keep pushing, and ignoring and dissmissing his nations security concerns, but I also understand how the world will see it too.
I think it may gave gotten his situation more attention if he'd just cut energy supplies to Europe.

Asymmetrical warfare may have been better than open warfare.
He'd have had more leverage if he took away the thing Europe and the West needs and paid more at the pump and with inflation in the short term.
It may have left room for some kind of discussions.

Open warfare may soon take us to a point of no return.
- If we're not there already.

Now Belarus is joining the war and preparing to send troops in.
Soon the West may move to do the same in sore reciprocal fashion, including imposing a no-fly zone in eastern Ukraine.

Once this happens - we'll have US planes shooting at Russian;
- Then Putin might go for the nuclear option; it won't take much to take that step, if he already thinks he's past a point of no return.

I think he's likely to use nukes before he sees Russia destroyed by the West twice, I honestly do.
- And I think the Chinese as an autocratic nation also in the US's crosshairs will line up on Putin's side.

The world may look back on this years from now as the issue that started it all.
But history is written by the victors, as for whatever they teach the young ones years from now - only some of it will be true, the parts that suit them.

Dear Armchair Critic,

History is not written by the victors but by the more literate. The Mongols had amazing tactics and conquered the largest land area of any empire yet known. However, they were mostly illiterate and devoid of scholars so it is mainly French sources that describe the Mongols since the French wrote the history of that era. General Grant had a lower casualty rate among his troops than did Lee and bested him in most of their encounters. However, a school of southern historians dominated academia after the Civil War and promoted the Lost Cause Myth and the genius of Lee.

Interesting that India abstained from supporting the US proposed UN Security Council resolution condemning the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I understand why China would abstain, as for the UAE don't care, but India.

Any expert opinions on that one?

David f,

Now that Russian forces are indiscriminately shelling areas how do you feel about the "good" Russians?

The only reason Putin is holding negotiations is because of the terrible damage done to the invasion force and the Russian economy.

The quick victory that Putin wanted has decayed into one of attrition where the Ukrainians now have access to an almost unlimited supply of high tech weapons and Russia is losing tanks, vehicles, planes and helicopters that it cannot replace in the short term.

India is supplying humanitarian assistance to Ukraine.

I heard one comment on BBC that the reason India abstained in the vote
was because they get most of their armaments from Russia and do not
want to compromise that supply.

Dear shadowminister,

What army a person happens to be in is generally a matter of where they are born. You really don't get it. Most soldiers serve because they don't have much choice in the matter.

Hitler's army did terrible things. However, the Germans who served in that army had little choice. There were few heroes like Franz Jägerstätter. He refused to serve and was beheaded by the Nazis.

I was a soldier in the US army in WW2 and think the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were crimes. Am I guilty of those crimes because I was a soldier in that army? I wasn't consulted. Neither are the Russian soldiers in Ukraine whose army is doing indiscriminate shelling

David,

Dropping nukes on Japan was not legally a war crime and attributed as being one of the major factors that forced Japan to surrender that probably saved a further 3-4 million casualties.

On the other hand, Russia is using thermobaric and cluster munitions against civilian targets that are clearly war crimes today. The Russian army is, therefore, a legitimate target and any soldier involved may not directly commit the war crimes but is certainly enabling them.

On the tactical front, it is pleasing to see that the javelin and stinger missiles have had a critical impact by limiting Russian air superiority to a narrow corridor with jets and attack helicopters flying at a low level out of this area being shot down, and vehicles straying any distance from the road being destroyed.

This is making logistics and resupply of a massive army extremely difficult and the 60km traffic jam of Russian vehicles has largely come to a halt.

The taking of the Kyiv will involve all their men and vehicles exposed to rocket and machine-gun fire with massive casualties.

War crimes? The supposed war criminal has to be defeated and judged by the victor. Just who is going to defeat Putin and judge him?

Dear Shadowminister,

You still don't understand. I do not approve of the actions of Putin or the Russian government. I feel sorrow for the Russian soldiers who are not there of their own choosing and who are caught up in a war not of their own making. Like most soldiers they are where they are because they were sent there and felt they had no alternative but to go.

I see no point in discussing this further as we are talking past each other.

Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes because dropping them on sparsely or virtually uninhabited country, such as Fujiyama, would have demonstrated the potential for destruction of cities quite vividly, they were used on cities primarily to see what the effect would be on humans and buildings; Nagasaki was a quick follow up experiment in case the war ended before the testing was complete.

As for the saving of potential casualties, this could have been achieved by not invading Japan, a complete blockade of the country would have brought Japan to surrender. No one was going to help them.

Dropping two atomic bombs on Japan was not a war crime because the perpetrators were victorious. The war criminals were the Japanese and the Germans because they lost. They were convicted at Nuremberg.

Putin will never be convicted of war crimes because the West will never take him on and beat him; so it's nonsense to even talk about war crimes.

The best the demented leader of the West can do is call Putin a bully. But Putin is not a bully.

Putin is a lunatic, who won't be beaten by the US or NATO, but "somehow … because of history", according to the other lunatic, Biden. By "wonderous mabic".

David,

The only way that Putin is going to stop the conflict is if his armies suffer significant losses in men and materiel. Seeing the Russian soldiers, tanks, aircraft that are deliberately killing civilians being destroyed is far better than seeing the bodies of children killed by them.

IM,

Prior to the atomic bombing, the US had firebombed just about every city killing 110 000 on the first day in Tokyo alone and millions by the time the first A-bomb was dropped. It was clear that Japan cared little about its civilians, even the devastation of the A-bomb didn't convince them, but the second finally did the trick.

Thanks for your feedback Armchair Critic. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. You've made some interesting points as have others.

Hey, Foxy,
What do you think about armed Ukrainian civilians being given weapons with which to fight the Russians?

It has been revealed Russia is holding $9 billion in Australian government bonds. Friedbrain refused to rule out non payment of interest to the Russians. Could it be Morrison will be looking for future Russian finance to bail him out.

SM, war crimes are war crimes, see you are again quoting from the Yankee play book.

shadowminister wrote:

"Prior to the atomic bombing, the US had firebombed just about every city killing 110 000 on the first day in Tokyo alone and millions by the time the first A-bomb was dropped. It was clear that Japan cared little about its civilians, even the devastation of the A-bomb didn't convince them, but the second finally did the trick."

It was also clear that the US cared little about civilians since it was the US that was dropping the bombs

The dropping of atomic bombs on the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were two of the worse war crimes in history. The fact they were carried out by the so called "good guys" with some lame excuse, was no more justification than if the Americans had no excuse.

These attacks by America on civilians, gives all future use of atomic weapons by nuclear armed nations against non-combatants some kind of perverted justification.

Well said, Paul.

Ignorant, sentimental, virtue-signalling claptrap.

I have been to Hiroshima. It was an eerie, unpleasant experience. If the Americans hadn't carried out the sickening task, the ensuing experience for Australia would have been a lot worse than eerie and sickening. Two bombs had to be dropped before the fanatics gave in.

Japan is our good ally. My wife and I have a Japanese daughter. You bozos don't know what you are talking about.

ttbn,
As you know so much about Japan, do you not think that an atomic bomb on the sacred mountain, Fujiyama, would not have impresses the Japanese?

There was absolutely no need to invade Japan, as I said earlier, Japan could have been starved into submission by blockade, but there’s no military glory in blockades so that was out.
Iwo Jima is a good example, it could have been bypassed and blockaded but no glory, so more Americans lost their lives for nothing more than the staged raising of the Stars and Stripes in the famous picture (taken a day or so after victory and after the original raising of said flag).

Hi Issy, you know more about war than I do, having fought in one yourself. What surprises me is in the 77 years since Hiroshima no one has targeted another Hiroshima somewhere in the world.

If as Russia claims, all they want is for Ukraine to declare itself neutral, no EU and no NATO, then that seems to be a legitimate bargaining point. Then can Putin and the West be trusted to keep their word, that's the $64 question.

Paul,
Inflation has wiped out the $64 question.

Wonder what it is today?

Any guesses?

"The Ukrainian crisis is a wake-up call for the woke. For decades, the West’s cosseted elite lived like Peter Pan, the boy who wouldn’t grow up. They didn’t want to make policy as if ‘solemn things’ like economics, energy, or defence were real. They spent their lives flitting between UN conferences in Neverland pretending anything was possible if only enough people believed in climate change."

Australia must strengthen its capacity to ensure sea lanes stay open. It cannot wait decades to build nuclear-powered submarines, it needs to buy them now and develop the capacity to maintain them. It also needs to rapidly increase its onshore fuel storage and refining capacity and it cannot allow coal-fired power stations to shut down early.

Ukrzaliznytsia joint-stock company provided the Armed Forces of Ukraine with 20 refrigerated rail cars for the removal of the bodies of the killed Russian invaders.
The company announced this in a statement, Ukrainian News Agency reports.

"Ukrzaliznytsia was tasked with sending 20 wagons to take out the killed of the Russian army from the Fastiv, Odesa-Zastava, Podilsk, Merefa, Zaporizhia stations. The carrying capacity of one refrigerated wagon is 50 tons, that is, we can take out 10,000 killed of Russian soldiers of occupying army," the statement says.

According to the statement, at present the wagons are already at the stations waiting for full loading.

Ukrzaliznytsia is also developing regulations for the movement of such trains at a sanitary distance from other trains and settlements.

"These wagons will be used exclusively for the transportation of the killed invaders of the Russian army. The killed Ukrainian soldiers are evacuated by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, without the use of the rolling stock of Ukrzaliznytsia," the statement says.

As Ukrainian News Agency reported, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy claims that during the week of the war, the Ukrainian military killed almost 9,000 Russian soldiers.

Russian Media tell a different story.
http://time.com/6151572/russian-media-ukraine-coverage/

Hey Paul1405
"The dropping of atomic bombs on the civilian populations of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were two of the worse war crimes in history. The fact they were carried out by the so called "good guys" with some lame excuse, was no more justification than if the Americans had no excuse.

As I understand it, Japan were already on the ropes anyway.
WWII wouldn't have gone on for much longer, but they dropped those atomic bombs anyway just because they could.

Hey Josephus
You could probably just as easily change all of those statements critical of Russia and apply them directly to the West instead, and it would be just as valid.

"While some opposition publications attempt to counter the narrative, mainstream Australian news outlets have largely fallen into line—even if the results are unlikely to fool discerning Aussie readers who have been exposed to years of propaganda. The resulting stories are as striking for what they omit as what they actually publish..."

Pauliar,

What Part of Russia dictating Ukraine's foreign policy is "legitimate"

I suppose for you the murdering of 1000s of Ukrainian women and children is OK.

SM,

America seems to have no problem dictating foreign policy for the rest of the world. Australia is trying to alter China's foreign policy in the Pacific. Russia might have some legitimate concerns if Yankee nukes are pointed et them from Ukraine. Ultimately that is what the world's biggest bully boy want to do, point nuclear missiles at everyone else.

Western democracy is just rule by western monetary policy

World Bank outlines $700m in planned loans in call with Zelenskyy

World Bank president David Malpass has told Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy the bank is working on loan programs worth about $700 million for Ukraine that will be disbursed by the end of March.

- He might need a bit more than 700m by the end of March.
Alternatively he might not have much of Ukraine left to worry about.

Something not mentioned is the fact that, after the Cold War, Americans promised Gorbachev they would not expand Nato if he’d let the Wall come down. They did anyway. Just one of the things Putin might think "justifies" his actions.

NATO was no threat to Russia as two member States already border Russia.
Myths examined in the article here.
The idea is a furfy presented by Russian sympathisers.
http://twitter.com/DanCrenshawTX/status/1497272170954776580?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1497272170954776580%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.canberradeclaration.org.au%2F2022%2F03%2F04%2Fsix-questionable-myths-about-the-russia-ukraine-crisis%2F

Putin has had his Black Belt in teakwando revoked. Cited is their Moto "Peace is more precious than Triumph."

Citing its motto “Peace is More Precious than Triumph” along with its "values of respect and tolerance," World Taekwondo announced on Monday it decided to withdraw the honorary black belt from Putin.

Examining Putins motives - He sees Russia as a failed and weak nation currently and wants to reclaim the old USSR and make it a World Power again competing with the West and China on the World Stage. Ukraine is rich in minerals, oil, gas, iron ore and coal and would enhance Russia's wealth. He does not see Ukraine becoming part of NATO as that isolates him as weak. He does not care for the people of Ukraine they are collatral.

"Americans promised Gorbachev they would not expand Nato if he’d let the Wall come down. "

That's false. Even Gorbachev confirms there were no such promises made or sought because at the time the only issue on the table was East Germany. Gorbachev sought promises that NATO troops wouldn't be put in East Germany and the US agreed.

There were no promises made to Russia because there was no country called Russia at the time. No one was concerned about NATO expanding into Poland etc because, at the time, Poland et al were still part of the Warsaw Pact and no one foresaw any change in that.

Putin uses this made up story to justify his expansionism and tooooo many people fall for it.

Speaking of promises, Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders if Ukraine gave up its nukes - which it did. How come no one expects Russia to keep its promises?

Western Australian, Rocco Locaicono, takes the opportunity to highlight Scott Morrison’s hypocrisy in 'Morrison: tough talk on Putin, feeble on freedom.'

While Morrison calls Putin a "thug" and pontificates on "authoritarian autocratic regimes " and the difference in "Western liberal democracies and others who want to support the rule of law", his words are in direct contrast to those he has used in relation to freedom and the rule of law in Australia.

For example, on several occasions, the Prime Minister has eviscerated the presumption of innocence, the cornerstone of Australia’s criminal justice system:

He has commented on the case of Brittany Higgins, who alleges she was raped in Parliament House. He has apologised to her, uncritically assuming the truth of her story. In doing so, he has jeopardised the trial of the accused.

Morrison prejudged Cardinal George Pell.

Morrison prejudged Australian SAS soldiers

Morrison has repeatedly backed over the past two years Daniel Andrew's de facto martial law over the state of Victoria, verbally encouraging Andrews to install "harsh penalties" for breaches of draconian laws.

Morrison has openly encouraged the lunatic, Mark McGowan.

Morrison made his disregard for freedoms clear in 2017 with his infamous statement that "Free speech doesn’t create one job, doesn’t open one business, doesn’t give anyone one extra hour. It doesn’t make housing more affordable or energy more affordable."

In 2019, the Institute of Public Affairs argued that "381 separate provisions had breached our fundamental rights during Morrison’s rule.

Dr. Loiacono, a Senior Lecturer at Curtin University Law School, writes that people like Putin are emboldened by the fact that they know that while Western leaders like Scott Morrison "talk about freedom, they don’t really believe in it, and consequently will probably never lift a finger to defend it".

ttbn, good argument on your opinion, but not factual.

Pauliar,

Your comparison with the US is bollocks again. The only direct comparison would be if the US invaded Canada. Ukraine had no weapons aimed at Russia nor threatened them in any way.

Russia's invasion into the Ukraine was entirely unprovoked. Whatever affection there was between the two countries has now been destroyed with the war crimes Russia is committing. There are now 40 million Ukrainians that hate Russia and are prepared to fight on bitterly.

Every day Russia is losing aircraft, helicopters, tanks, vehicles and men to the meat grinder.

SM,

I was making a point about America's foreign policy, Ukraine is yet another pawn being played in the geopolitical game of chess that America is playing with the rest of the world, Australia included. Do you think the Americans give a rats about the people of Ukraine, they don't care about their own people, let alone Ukrainians. The military/industrial complex that is the US seeks world domination, and look out, those who would oppose them.

Having said that Russia was wrong in invading Ukraine. In an attempt to push back against the US puppet NATO, Russia has inflicted great harm on the Ukrainians. Putin for his part wants to return to some past time of a great Russian empire. Such an ambition can only finish badly for all concerned.

Russia has another dilemma, Its weapons are overwhelmingly from the Soviet era and about 96% of its tanks helicopters and aircraft being used were built prior to 1980, while still very effective in combat are completely vulnerable to the modern missiles and cannot be replaced easily.

Note that the GDP of Russia today is about 50% bigger than that of Australia and when:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eg7_G1rhVA

The cost of a modern replacement is about $100m and the Russians have in 10 days lost about 40. Do the maths. This doesn't include the aircraft, the tanks, personnel carriers etc that have been largely sitting ducks that with the rains the mud keeps the vehicles on the road leaving the countryside in the control of the Ukrainians.

Considering that nearly everything that comes out of Putin's mouth is a lie from not having any intention to invade to targeting military targets only, only a moron would take his word.

If Putin wants to stop his neighbours from joining NATO, he has done exactly the opposite.

Josephus,

Everything said about Morrison is fact. You are just a rusted-on Liberal voter in denial of the facts.

Had Donald Trump still been US president, Ukraine would not have been invaded. The US under the current poor confused fool is no threat to anyone, nor is it any help to anyone. The appalling spur of the moment desertion of Afghanistan, with billions of dollars worth of equipment and military know how (for China) was the the last straw. Communist China has now seen enough to get ready to take Taiwan any time it chooses - if it so chooses - with probably the only resistance coming from the Taiwanese themselves. The "experts" have decided that Australia cannot defend itself, so we can't afford to get involved, particularly as we don’t even recognise Taiwan, any more than the US does. And, I don’t any longer believe that Australia can rely on the US to help protect us from China; nor do I believe that we can rely on Morrison and his progressive pansies.

Pauliar,

What paranoid BS. Are you off your meds again?

SM,

As sucker bait who can't think for himself, you are easily deluded by American propaganda. Since WWII America has murdered millions around the world using the phony pretext of delivering so called "freedom and democracy", which has been shown to be a complete lie. The true American objective is world domination.

In 1961 Eisenhower warned the world of the danger of the American Military/Industrial Complex and the havoc it would bring should it be allowed to continue unchecked, uUnfortunately that has been the sad reality. Millions of dupes like you have been easily led in the wrong direction.

As for whose in the White House, be it a sex crazed perverted imbecile, your choice, or a dottering old fool, it don't matter as long as they toe the line, and follow instructions.

Definitely off your meds.

The 'Usful Idiot' can say nothing, cannot dispute the facts, Eisenhower, Military/Industrial Complex, millions dead in American wars of aggression, Muppets in the White House.

The only reference to the arbitrary rejection of my comment that NATO agreed not to expand towards Russia is, "Gorbachev apparently said in 2014 that 'the topic of NATO expansion was not discussed in 1990, and it wasn’t brought up in all those years.”

OK if you believe Gorbachev; not much use as proof.

In the meantime, while the West is barking from the sidelines, and Biden, after fleeing Afghanistan with ignominy, preoccupied with climate change and feminising his military, and with Europe dependent on Russian oil and gas, Putin picked a good time.

And, what answer would a referendum to see how many Americans, Brits, Australians, Germans would risk war with Russia to save Ukraine’s independence come up with? About the same as when the likes of Biden, Morrison etc start barking about Taiwan. Not many.

The useless idiot liar cannot prove any of the BS he spouts. Are millions dead really? have you been smoking your socks?

To give some perspective, Russia in 10 days has lost many more aircraft, helicopters, tanks and vehicles than the entire Australian army/airforce. The west has supplied Ukraine with many 1000s of anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles and with an attrition rate of about 5% of aircraft a week, this is not a war that Russia can prosecute for long.

In the background, the Russian economy is only 50% larger than Australia's and shortly to shrink considerably. Russia has only orders for 30% of the oil it produces even at a huge discount and with the war crimes Russia is committing countries are moving to ban the import of Russian oil. And if it continues much longer the US is likely to impose secondary sanctions i.e. black listing banks that buy Russian oil.

The shadow of nuclear weapons has been cast over those nations wanting
to assist another country under threat by an invader.
If the invader does not have nuclear weapons countries can exercise
their conscience and come to the aid of the attacked country.

What a pity that what can be a good deed is so compromised.
Think how the Poles must feel, just over the line and they cannot
even clear the approaches to Poland of Russians.
However this ends up, Sweden and Finland will join NATO and eventually
Ukraine will join, they will not forget.

“Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart, whoever wants it back has no brain”? - Putin

This isn't about restoring the USSR but about keeping NATO away from the Russian border by ensuring Ukraine remains as a non-NATO buffer state.This conflict has been going on since 2014 but nobody seemed to care until recently.

As for this not happening under Trump, Trump was preparing to remove American soldiers from Germany and, according to Roger Stone and other sources, was planning for the US to exit NATO during his second term.
This would have severely weakened NATO and Putin gambled that things would stay much the same in a post-Trump world.

Meanwhile Trump and many Republicans continue to support Putin as some sort of genius but remember that Trump was financially bailed out by Russian oligarchs when the banks wouldn't touch him so "he owes them".

'Useful Idiot' you need to get your head out of the Murdoch Gutter Press and learn from the real world. Since WWII 12 million people have perished in American wars of aggression.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/

Putin is a Christian, he was baptized into the Orthodox Church as an infant . There is no doubt about Putins belief in God, often making godly references during speeches.. Putin attends church during holidays, he went as far as having his baptismal cross blessed at the Lord's Tomb in Israel, he has a street in Bethlehem named after him. Putin has done much to restore the Russian Orthodox Church to a prominent position in Russian society.

Heck Putin might be more religious than Biden. God save our souls!

Since 1776 America has been at war 93% of the time. It is by far the most aggressive nation on Earth, other nations are right to fear them. Every year of the 21st century America has been involved in a foreign war. America has fought wars on every contingent except Antarctica, the penguins should be careful, America will be done there shortly delivering their wholesome brand of " freedom and democracy" to the poor birds at the point of a gun.

Paul1405 wrote:

Since 1776 America has been at war 93% of the time. It is by far the most aggressive nation on Earth, other nations are right to fear them. Every year of the 21st century America has been involved in a foreign war. America has fought wars on every contingent except Antarctica, the penguins should be careful, America will be done there shortly delivering their wholesome brand of " freedom and democracy" to the poor birds at the point of a gun.

His words remind one of Smedley Butler. Major General Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed "Maverick Marine",[1] was a senior United States Marine Corps officer who fought in the Philippine–American War, the Boxer Rebellion, the Mexican Revolution and World War I. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, and Central America; the Caribbean during the Banana Wars; and France in World War I. Butler was, at the time of his death, the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. By the end of his career, Butler had received 16 medals, five for heroism. He is one of 19 men to receive the Medal of Honor twice, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal (along with Wendell Neville and David Porter) and the Medal of Honor, and the only Marine to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

In his book “War is a Racket” Butler says essentially the same things that Paul1405 said.

Butler’s bio can be found at Smedley Butler - Wikipedia.

His book can be read at War Is A Racket : Major General Smedley Butler : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

A Butler quote:

"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses."

The First Casualty Of War Is The Truth
http://tinyurl.com/mvnr79vr

I've been trying to tell you all about Ukraine for years.
I tried telling you all the US stages revolutions and overthrows.
You all should watch the 3 minute video above;
Apparently info was taken from Oliver Stones documentary 'Ukraine on Fire'
- I have the movie, but never got around to watching it.

Dear Paul1405,

The US has been and is an imperialist power. However, from colonial times the US has been a source of opposing traditions. Sometimes these tradition have influenced things for the better.

One of the sources of these opposing traditions is Roger Williams.

Roger Williams (c.21 December 1603—between 27 January and 15 March 1683) was a Puritan minister, theologian, and author who founded Providence Plantations, which became the Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations and later the U.S. State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, now the State of Rhode Island. He was a staunch advocate for religious freedom, separation of church and state, and fair dealings with Native Americans.

Williams was expelled by the Puritan leaders from the Massachusetts Bay Colony and established Providence Plantations in 1636 as a refuge offering what he termed "liberty of conscience." In 1638, he founded the First Baptist Church in America, in Providence. Williams studied the indigenous languages of New England and published the first book-length study of a native North American language in English

The US also had an anti-imperialist League in reaction to its imperialism.

On June 15, 1898, the Anti-imperialist league formed to fight U.S. annexation of the Philippines, citing a variety of reasons ranging from the economic to the legal to the racial to the moral. It included among its members such notables as Andrew Carnegie, Mark Twain, William James, David Starr Jordan, and Samuel Gompers with George S. Boutwell, former secretary of the Treasury and Massachusetts, as its president. Following the signing of the Treaty of Paris, the league began to decline and eventually disappeared.

Although the Anti-imperialist League disappeared its spirit remained and appeared in the League of Nations and the United Nations, international organizations set up with the goal of settling international disputes by peaceful means.

With the development of nuclear weapons it is urgent to settle international disputes by peaceful means.

At this time the main danger of conflict leading to a nuclear exchange is in the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.

Hi David,

Thanks for that.

Its my belief that treaties such as ANZUS serve the purpose of the powerful United States over the interests of the subservient, Australia and NZ. The history of military treatises has been to promote war, rather than diminish the possibility.

I am not a complete pacifist, I realise the necessity of an Australian home defence capability. The reality is no matter what Australia's military capability is its always going to be limited, as it is for most countries. In my view we would be better served by taking a non aligned stance in world affairs, rather than relying on a military treaty.

David,

Your wide definition that since the US annexed the Philipines 130 years ago makes it still an imperialist power would make just about every country in the world imperialist from the Zulus, the Aztecs, the Russians, the Chinese, the Egyptians etc.

Secondly, the claim that the US has been at war for 93% of its existence is to stretch the definition of war to include minor skirmishes such as the blocking of a communist take over in Grenada in 1983 that lasted a few days. The real figure is about 24%.

What troubles me is that it seems that you and Pauliar are trying to blame the West for Putin's imperialist attack on Ukraine. Until now the West and NATO have never seriously considered initiating military action against Russia, and most countries that were never considering joining NATO are starting to move that way and existing NATO states are arming themselves to the teeth.

While on paper Russia has a massive military force, the reality is that most of its hardware is 40 years old and poorly maintained. Russia has deployed 95% of its standing army in Ukraine and is facing a well trained Ukrainian force that is armed to the teeth with weapons that make close combat costly. It is estimated that Russia has already lost about 4000 soldiers including many senior leaders and 10% of its vehicles in less than 2 weeks. An extended war will wipe out any capability for Russia to fight beyond its borders.

The US military is deployed in over 150 foreign countries, with more than 170,000 personnel involved.

American imperialism is alive and well in all parts of the world. The "good old days" of British style colonalism useing direct military force to murder and enslave the local inhabitants, along with gunboat diplomacy has been somewhat replaced by economic and political coercion to get "the American way".

True SM, if you remove all the American wars with non whites, that's the non-humans in your eyes, you will come up with a figure of 24%.

Perhaps we should all remember this poem, attributed to
Martin Niemoller, a German Lutheran pastor, who was
initially a supporter of Hitler, but as he witnessed the
events in Hitler's Germany he began to strongly oppose
Hitler's regime. He was imprisoned twice and narrowly
escaped execution to survive the war and in 1950 published
the poem below:

"First they came for the Socialists and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists and I did not speak
out because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because
I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me."

In just these lines of verse it encapsulates the reason the
whole world should strongly protest the invasion of Ukraine.

https://www.tikkun.org/the-u-s-hypocrisy-on-ukraine/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=d8139b84-e62f-4e69-bdfa-6027b63dd242

points out the hypocrisy in the US condemnation of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

from the article:

"For example, President Joe Biden has correctly asserted that “nations have a right to sovereignty and territorial integrity.” The United States, however, has been the only government in the world to formally recognize Israel’s illegal annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights and Morocco’s annexation of the entire nation of Western Sahara, both seized by force in defiance of the United Nations."

Pauliar,

I am challenging the maths not the morals.

Welcome back Foxy,

I like that poem, and I agree with its sentiments. The problem is, how do you voice your oppersition in a non-violent way when those that promote bigotry, racism and hate are intent on violence to get their way.

Shonky, to get to your 24%, should I count the Mexicans as Aryan or Non-Aryan?

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the welcome back.

My husband and I have been struck with this awful
flu over the past weeks. We're just slowly getting over it.
Both of us feel so lethargic - very little energy.

I'm not sure what anyone can do regarding the Ukraine.
I think that everything that can be done is being done.
Nobody wants a nuclear war.

I feel that regarding Putin - perhaps it has to be an internal
solution to stop him. If the sanctions hit the pockets of
the oligarchs they may do something more drastic.

Sanctions are the only way for us to go. That and of course
protests.

Welcome back. Foxy, how are you with those civilians being encouraged to take up firearms in the Ukraine?

Is Mise,

Ukraine's President signed a law allowing civilians
to use weapons during wartime to protect their country.
They have been allowed to use weapons against persons
who carry out armed aggression.

Bettina Arndt, the blokes' friend, wants to know: "How come the life of (a young) father is considered expendable whilst most fit, capable Ukrainian women are being hastily shipped off, out of harm’s way?"

She wants to know where the feminists' demand for "equal treatment of women" has gone when males 18-60 only are forced to stay and defend Ukraine.

Apart from the 32,000 women in the Ukraine military, there are 17, 000 million other women of military age; some of whom, it must be said, are staying behind to help, voluntarily.

There is a case for women with very young children leaving - but even then, there would be plenty of people over 60 who could take children to safety. Children were separated from their parents during the London blitz.

Then, as Ms. Arndt points out, there are "all those forty-something single women past childbearing age that we watched scrambling to get on crowded trains leaving Ukraine".

I hope none of them are given refugee visas here. If they won't fight for their own country, they won't fight for ours.

Foxy,

I know all that but do you agree that giving firearms to civilians is the right thing to do?
Just (for once) please answer the question.

Is Mise,

I am not under any obligation to answer any of your
questions.

It should be clear that Ukrainians will fight
with whatever weapons they can - be it molotov cocktails
or pitchforks. They will defend their country against an
armed aggressor. Firearms are not much protection against
Russian missiles and military might, but so far, people
power is Ukraine's best defence.

Pauliar,

What do you consider war, maybe a heated Twitter exchange?

You are the greatest racist on this site and the only one to bring it up.

Hi Issy,

Desperate times call for desperate measures!

Remember every Frenchman was a member of the Resistance in ....... 1946.

My ex-father-in-law, now 88 said he was in the Hitler Youth, said it was the Boy Scout's with guns. Before they could get him to defend the Fatherland he took off. And I thought he had no brains, he got that right.

When you were in Korea throwing chocolates at children, did any of the kiddies throw Mollie's in your direction. Desperate times.

Paul,
If I ignore you, be assured it’s nothing personal.

Foxy,
Do give us your valued opinion on civilians being given guns to fight aggressors..

Or do you feel that painted in corner looming?

Ahh, ttbn you have touched on a fundamental of the human species.
It is for men to protect the women and children as they encapsulate the future.
If the women stay, then the men while dealing with the enemy will be
worrying about what is happening with their women and children.
When it really comes to the crunch as in Ukraine thats when woke goes
out the window with all the other trendy rubbish.
When the army enlistment people see a trans woman, do you think they
will let him go with the women ?
All that rubbish is then seen for what it is, just nonsense.

And as a similar threat from China looms over us, it’s time that we started to train a huge army of riflemen so that when the time comes our people will be trained and armed.
No mucking about at the last minute.
General conscription and part time training from 18 t0 60 and at least one day a month at the range.

Is Mise, then for those 61 & over training for operations like the
resistance in France in ww2.

Riflemen. What about riflewomen.

China has just threatened any country that offers military help to Taiwan.

Is Mise- Even if Foxy won't support your position in this case I do- I support the winding back of gun restriction policies- so that more Australian's take up gun ownership. This will mean more gun deaths but it's always a balance between risks- in this case the risk of China and it's ideological siblings such as Socialism and progressivism. Even though I'm not a gun owner myself. Someone recently told me about the Owen SMG that was made by Lysacht Newcastle- I thought that the Sten was an interesting device but apparently there was competition with the apparently simpler Owen. A bit concerning about the dicky selector though.

ttbn,
Riflewomen are fine, if they have the physical shape that allows them to hug the ground and not have their posteriors up for targets.
Put simply most women are not built to be infantry but they do fine in house to house fighting and in running battles.
Nancy Wake was a fine example of a fighting woman, she once killed a German soldier with her bare hands.

Canem Malem,
The Owen was considered by many to have been one of the best sun-machine guns of WWIi, if not the best, it was not a copy of the Sten but a unique design.
The Australian version of the Sten was the Austen, and it proved to be unpopular with the troops and from the end of the war until they were destroyed they were held in storage as reserve weapons.
The Sten was commonly known as the “Stench gun”.
The Owen continued in service until around the late 1960s then the majority of them were destroyed.
Australia at the moment has very few reserve firearms.
I’d bet that there are more firearms in civilian ownership than Government.

The role of the Sten in the French Underground due to it's compact breakdown is interesting- but can understand the stench. The location of the mag on the Owen seems problematic- perhaps the stock is superfluous too- quite heavy 5kg and 800mm. Sounds like there was issues with standardization/ interchangeability of the rounds- and the production started towards the end of the war. Very different to modern SMG's such as the MP5/ Styr Carbine.

Ah, the good old years of 1939-45, some of the Forum lads are going to be very disappointed when the clock ticks over to 1946.

Canem Malum,

The location of the magazine on top was one of the Owen’s great points, gravity assists the feed of the rounds and downward ejection means that the bloke next to you doesn’t get hit with hot cases; not only that but it enables the user to get closer to the ground, side and underneath mags are not as effective in this regard.
The stock is very necessary as it affords a great degree of control when firing from the hip and greater accuracy with aimed shots.
Although the standard accurate range is often given as 50 yards, aimed shots from the shoulder are easy at 100 yards.
One of my tricks, as an armourer, was to riddle a standard man size target at 400 yards much to the amazement of onlookers; but I had lots and lots of practice

400 yards wow- Given the documented range is 200 that's impressive- I would have thought that was difficult given the side sight- being an armourer/ gunsmith has it's advantages. At that distance a person would be 2.5mm/ 1/8". I suppose urban warfare means fighting at closer range. Bullpup weapons like the Austyr carbine as you know keeping the weight closer to the body giving better mechanical advantage from the shoulder- but yes getting close to the ground and ejections are a good point- doesn't mean that bottom/ side mounted mags can't eject downwards I suppose if they're designed that way- the reliability would be an advantage. I suppose the straight mag is better than the staggered design too- even though it's longer. The Sten would probably give an even better ground profile given the lack of grips and the side mag- I wonder if the side mag causes a twisting feeling- but you'd probably get used to it. I guess reloading and aiming after reloading would be easier from a prone position than underneath mags even more so for bullpups.

The Owens A£8/ US$24 manufacture cost and wholely Australian design also impressive.

And Issy the MAN TARGET must have been rather amazed as well..... Did you supply the band-aids, or did the poor slob have to bring his own?

Perfect weapon for the little fellas show and tell at kindy. Such joy, I gotta get meself one of those pop guns!

Jesus, Ukranie has a lot of women, 17,000 million according to ttbn. Bettina, stuff her in a cannon and firer her at the Russians, meeting her they'll soon give up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_Arndt

Heinz Wolfgang Arndt was born in Breslau, Germany, in 1915, the eldest son of Fritz Georg Arndt (1885-1969) and Julia (née Heimann). Arndt gained two degrees at Oxford and taught at the London School of Economics and University of Manchester before settling in Australia in 1946. While studying in England, he married his wife Ruth (nee Strohsahl) with whom he later lived in Canberra until her death in 2001. In 1950, Arndt took up a chairmanship in economics at the then Canberra University College. He became head of the department at the Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies (RSPAS) at the Australian National University (ANU) in 1963. He held this position until retiring in 1980. One of his main activities as head of the department was his establishment and management of the Indonesia Project which sponsors research on the Indonesian economy.[2] As part of his activities with the Indonesia Project he established the academic journal Bulletin of Indonesian Economic Studies (BIES).[3]

Arndt died in a car crash in Canberra in May 2002.[4] He was on his way to attend the funeral of his close friend Sir Leslie Melville, at which he was to deliver a eulogy.[5]

Foxy,
Does the originator of a topic not have an implied obligation to respond to queries relevant to said topic?
Good manners certainly requires it.

Putin's actions suggest he's nowhere near ready for
a ceasefire. Ukrainian President Zelensky has warned that
it is only a matter of time before Russian missiles fall
on NATO territory. He has renewed his call for the
alliance to close the skies over his country.

The risk of a wider conflict appears to be deepening.
Both sides appear far apart in principle. Ukraine demands
the withdrawal of Russian troops. Moscow is calling on
NATO to pull back from former states in Eastern Europe.
This is less likely now given Russia's treatment of the
Ukraine.

Things are not looking good.

Why can't Putin be removed?

Why are Russians putting up with this leader?

Surely someone could end this with Putin's removal?

Let's be clear. Although the war on Ukraine is a horrible travesty, Ukraine is not without sin. There was ample opportunity for them to avoid having their cities razed and and their citizens killed. Whatever deal could have been done, nothing could be as bad as what is happening now. But no, the Ukrainian leader, as pigheaded and gungho as Putin is, chose war.

I wonder if ordinary Ukrainians were consulted.

And, all you armchair warriors, with your ridiculous suggestions, should think about how you would like to be involved in a shooting war yourselves. Because that is what is coming if the West doesn't shut up. And, we don't have any land borders to scuttle across to get away.

This article suggests that a way should be provided for Putin to get out of the situation.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/03/west-save-putin-russia-ukraine/627051/

"The question for world leaders is how to ensure the Russian president is defeated while nevertheless providing him with a route out of the crisis."

Paul,

That's right. Rubbish Bettina Arndt, and reinforce the sex warriors' hypocritical demands for equality for women without any of the obligations. Leave the men to get killed, just like the able-bodied Ukrainian women pissing off to safety.

Things which are inviolable and constant are truth and logic.
One cannot change the these, however much one wants to.
Look back in history, and there are many who tried, but inevitably failed.
Unfortunately, they left behind them a trail of death and destruction.
But they failed, so truth survived, and lives on.

The grab for Ukraine is not logical, it is personal.
As usual in such situations, a blind eye is being turned to the suffering of the people under attack.
I feel strongly for those who are too young to defend themselves.
The children are being exposed to far too much horror.
The parents must be distressed, being unable to protect them.

Whilst most of the rest of the world decries this outrage, there is little they can do directly.
They must fight the aggression by peaceful means.
This is a slow process, but over time will succeed?
A possible scenario is that cooler heads in Russia will intervene.
But not immediately.
So everyone watches and waits whilst the conflict rolls on.

It has been said that it is an ill wind which blows no good.
So something good must come out of this?
Which is small comfort to those in the firing line.

Foxy,
No one will remove Putin and for the same reasons that no one removed Stalin.

By now it is pretty clear that Putin's objective was always to invade and subjugate Ukraine. That Ukraine could have avoided this is pure bollocks.

Of course Ukraine could have avoided what it is going through now. There is always a choice. There was ample time to make a choice during the huffing and and puffing stage.

If we look back to the territories "liberated" by
the Bolsheviks during the October revolution. To the
captive nations occupied by the Red Army during World War II,
and in the lands won by military force or "wars of liberation"
in Asia, Africa, the Far East, and the Caribbean. - what's
happening in Ukraine should be understandable.

The territories "liberated" by the Bolsheviks during the October revolution were different perhaps than the territories "liberated" by
Alexander The Great. In the case of Alexander the Persian's had been testing the defences of Greece and Macedonia for a while- so perhaps they saw their actions as justifiable self defence.

Sadly the gains of Alexander and the Romans were decimated when the Chinese invaded Europe and then the Slavs opportunistically occupied the created vacuum from memory. mhaze please feel free to correct me on this.

http://www.quora.com/How-did-Slavs-manage-to-conquer-the-biggest-part-of-Europe?share=1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe

In the spirit of Aristotle's Politics perhaps liberation by principles is better than liberation by war- but they are both in the game book.

If Putin is being honest then he wanted a buffer between Russia and NATO (but is anybody honest- enlightened self interest seems to apply here- Machiavelli had an opinion on this). This implies that he wouldn't have gone into The Ukraine if NATO hadn't- but possibly this is tied up with the larger battle between China and the West.

Sorry I may have gotten confused with the Plague of Justinian- and the Slavs occupying this vacuum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_migrations_to_the_Balkans

Dear Foxy,

During the Civil War in Russia the alternative to being 'liberated' by the Reds was to be subjected to the Whites. A better alternative as my father was able to find was to remove himself from Russia entirely. He got to Japan where he was just another blue-eyed, red-haired European unlike Russia where he was a Zhid.

During WW2 the choice was between Stalin and Hitler for those who had the opportunity to make a choice. Many were simply eliminated by the Nazis. I worked with a man who was saved by the Russians because his father was anticommunist. When Poland was divided between the Germans and the Russians at the beginning of the war people in the Russian zone were given a choice. Accept Soviet citizenship, and you can stay in your homes. Otherwse you will be deported. Naparstek's father was anticommunist and refused Soviet citizenship. As a result the family was deported to Murmansk where Abe told me he spent a fairly pleasant childhood. Those Jews who accepted Soviet citizenship were eliminated by the Nazis when they moved east.

Foxy,
What’s happening today in the Ukraine is understandable, ]particularly in terms of personal ambition, power and greed.
——
True the war could have been avoided, just as in 1939 Chamberlin could have given in to Hitler or Australia could have given in to the Japanese.
The UN could have ignored the Communist invasion of South Korea and all these would have been history changers and your keyboards would be much larger.

History muddles everything. For instance the Slavic races have long
had a dislike of those from the west and the south.
The clue to this is in their racial name Slavs, the countries of slaves.
The Balkans, Ukraine and Russia were a major source of slaves in the
Arabic and Roman worlds.
Blondes especially were prized because of the price obtainable.
Such is racial memory.

The following link explains why Russia has invaded Ukraine
and what does Putin want?

http://bbc.com/news/world-europe-56720589

It is worth a read.

Putin himself best knows what he wants and why he invaded Ukraine. Nobody, including the BBC asked him; but people who know history and Russia have given several reasons that you don't want listen to.

A former KGB operative Putin has stated that
the collapse of the Soviet Union was one of
the greatest disasters of modern history.

He's made it quite clear that he does not regard
Ukraine as a "real country" nor Ukrainians as
separate people.

His desire is to return his country to the
so-called "glory days" of Soviet Union Superpower.

The Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly in 1991
in a democratic referendum to leave the Soviet Union
and become independent.

It is understandable why a parasite like Putin wants
the Ukraine. Ukraine is a minerals-rich vast land of
fertile fields and as Ukraine has moved more towards
the West and has tried to step out of Russia's sphere
of influence - Putin has sought to draw it back.

This crisis and conflict will not end until Putin
leaves the Kremlin and Russia finally decides whether
it will build a modern nation state or whether it will
continue to seek an empire.

Foxy said- "The Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly in 1991 in a democratic referendum to leave the Soviet Union and become independent. It is understandable why a parasite like Putin wants the Ukraine. Ukraine is a minerals-rich vast land of fertile fields and as Ukraine has moved more towards the West and has tried to step out of Russia's sphere of influence - Putin has sought to draw it back."

Answer- I expect that everything that Foxy said could equally apply to Lincoln in the US Civil War.

The South wanted to recede from the Union but Lincoln used the absolutist policy of Afro-American emancipation to justify a power grab. Perhaps he later regretted this policy as indicated by some of his later announcements. Ironic that at this time a Confederate sympathizer assassinated Lincoln- perhaps this was a "controlled opposition"/ "false flag" operation perhaps it was just a timing issue.

PS- Thanks Bazz for the information on the Slavs/ slaves and the fact that blonds were also enslaved as part of the early slave trade. Kudos.

So I suppose "white guilt can be absolved" due to most cultures participating in the slave trade. This is also true of racism and bigotry- everyone is bigoted- to say less is bigoted- and it's necessary for survival- at any rate we need to look after our own culture not try to interfere with other cultures sovereignty and engaging in cultural appropriation and engineering. Science should be used to inform the people not dictate to them. Humans have been doing terrible things to each other for millions of years- I don't expect this will change soon- those that believe this are perhaps naive or manipulators or both. We should try to hope for the best but prepare for the worst- good fences make good neighbours

CM,
You can’t be serious.
What mineral wealth did the Confederate States have?
Their shortage in iron alone helped in their defeat.
The Confederates fired the first shots that officially started the war when Fort Sumpter was attacked.
It wasn’t until 1863 that the proclamation to free the slaves was announced.
Lincoln and Putin are comparable only as opposits.

Mineral wealth? But fertile fields- probably. Although they did find "oil" later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_presidential_election

The 1860 Republican National Convention in Chicago nominated Lincoln, a moderate former one-term Whig Representative from Illinois. Its platform promised not to interfere with slavery in the South but opposed extension of slavery into the territories. The 1860 Democratic National Convention adjourned in Charleston, South Carolina, without agreeing on a nominee, but a second convention in Baltimore, Maryland, nominated Illinois Senator Stephen A. Douglas. Douglas's support for the concept of popular sovereignty, which called for each territory's settlers to decide locally on the status of slavery, alienated many radical pro-slavery Southern Democrats, who wanted the territories, and perhaps other lands, open to slavery. With President Buchanan's support, Southern Democrats held their own convention, nominating Vice President John C. Breckinridge of Kentucky. The 1860 Constitutional Union Convention nominated a ticket led by former Tennessee Senator John Bell.

Lincoln's main opponent in the North was Douglas, who won the popular vote in two states, Missouri and New Jersey. In the South, Bell won three states and Breckinridge swept the remaining 11. Lincoln's election motivated seven Southern states, all voting for Breckinridge, to secede before the inauguration and the secession of four more, including two that voted for Bell, after Lincoln mobilized Federal troops to protect Federal property and coerce the seven initially seceding states. The election was the first of six consecutive Republican victories.

It's interesting that in 1850 there were 23,191,876 people in the US (not sure if slaves were included) and the same size as Australia (but more arable). Farm mechanization didn't appear till the 20th century from my limited research. In the 1850's it appears that without slavery the view was that labour supplies would be the limiting factor to growth- and a sudden change in (labour/slave) policy would disadvantage investments in agriculture which was actually reducing food prices and suffering- even slaves would be disadvantaged- the US was a big exporter- so changes in the labour supply would effect world food prices.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h980.html
http://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3783

I wonder what the African's in Africa were doing to increase the availability of food in the 1850's- I suspect that the Afro-American's were doing much better. Even white peasant's had it pretty bad in the 1850's without mass manufacturing- especially in Britain's climate. Perhaps by investment, work, planning, thinking Britain was able to grow despite it's weaknesses in the 1600-1700's by founding colonies in climates favourable to growing crops on a larger scale.

All very interesting, but it’s got nowt to do with Lincoln being like Putin..

Canem, in the 1850 they were just climbing out of the Little Ice Age and Europe had had about 50 years of hard cold times.
Crop yields I imaging would have started increasing.
I wonder where one would find info on crop yields for 1700 to 1900 ?

Simply put the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an
attack on democracy, the rule of law, and the values
that we have stood for throughout our history.

It is important to remember that Ukraine was recognised
as an independent state by Russia more than 30 years ago.
The Charter of Paris, signed in Nov. 1990 by the US, Russia,
and 30 European countries established essential principles
for a post Cold War era based on international law and
global norms.

Russia, the US and Great Britain guaranteed
the sovereignty and territorial integrity of
Ukraine in 1995 in the Budapest
Memorandum.

Moscow has no more legal basis to insist on any portion of the
territory of Ukraine than Germany has the right to demand the
return of Alsace and Lorraine from France.

If the West accepts Russian claims - it will not only undermine
the sovereignty of all countries but it will also invite other
nations (China) to seek territory through military force.

Let us not forget that in September 1938, Neville Chamberlain,
Great Britain's PM at the time, returned from a summit with
Adolf Hitler in Munich. The German dictator had demanded that
portions of Czechoslovakia become part of The Third Reich.

Chamberlain acceded to Hitler's demands. Upon his return to
Great Britain Chamberlain proclaimed "peace for our time."
When in fact Chamberlain's policy of appeasement resulted in
the catastrophe of WwII.

The leaders of communist China are watching how the US and
its allies react as Beijing considers its demands to control
Taiwan and the South China Sea.

Putin has been quite frank about his ultimate goals and they
extend way beyond the border of Eastern Ukraine. This conflict
may seem geographically distant to some people but its
consequences could have ripple effects that extend far beyond
Eastern Europe. We must recognize that this conflict will
seriously affect us all.

Foxy,
Neville Chamberlain fooled Hitler and bought more time for the rearmament that was going on in Britain under his leadership, without Chamberlain’s actions WWII may have started earlier and with a different result.
It was Chamberlin who declared war on Germany in defence of Poland and he was the wartime PM for seven months and then served in the war cabinet till his death some months later.

Is Mise,

http://newstatesman.com/culture/history/2022/01/why-neville-chamberlain-will-forever-be-discredited-by-his-policy-of-appeasement

Foxy,
Interesting link; what cannot be doubted is thar Britain’s most successful fighter planes were developed during Chamberlain’s time.
It stretches the imagination to think that Chamberlain did not foresee war as inevitable and that he did not prepare for it.
Many British firms were preparing for war by 1937 and this is shewn by their rapid transition from peace to war.

A good example is Alvis who built aero engines and other parts for aircraft and supplied their 4.3 litre engine for armoured cars ( Alvis enthusiasts used to visit the Western desert in the 1950s and ‘60s to get spare engines).

Is Mise said "All very interesting, but it’s got nowt to do with Lincoln being like Putin.."

Answer- With respect Is Mise. I see it differently or perhaps more holistically. You could look at this situation in a number of ways depending on how you slice and dice the situation. Perhaps others agree perhaps not.

Putin's situation- Foxy said- "The Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly in 1991 in a democratic referendum to leave the Soviet Union and become independent." (But Putin is not letting them be independent. Because he perhaps believes that the buffer agreement takes precedence.)

Lincoln's situation- Lincoln felt that the will of the people in the south to separate from the US was irrelevant and considered that the nation took precedence.

The information provided previously about the 1860's election was supposed to indicate that the North and South enmity started well before Fort Sumpter.

Iron isn't the only required resource for the economy- but critical in conflict- Rhett Butler referred to this in "Gone With The Wind" saying the south had fewer canons (and smaller). Industrialism came late to agriculture and so was labour intensive as I understand but the north probably had more manufacturing (could be wrong) which requires more technology and less but more expensive labour and is usually accompanied by better financing. The better manufacturing capability probably was advantageous to the prosecution of the war. This is an example of asymmetry in conflict and business economics (Ohmae talks about this). But as I said there are a multitude of perspectives here- some producing contradictory conclusions.

Your comments about Neville Chamberlain seem reasonable to me.

Thanks Bazz for the information. Kudos.

What does Putin want - Now?

At this point, I think that Putin desperately wants to dig himself out of the deep hole that he is in.

His army has been stopped in its tracks and is being smashed every day with morgues in Belarus overflowing with Russian war dead.
He has lost hundreds of tanks and armoured vehicles and scores of aircraft.
He is isolated and branded a war criminal,
His economy is in the toilet,
His mate Xi who has announced a friendship without limits has done nothing beyond rhetoric after the US left him in no doubt that China would face consequences if it tried to break the sanctions.

shadowminister,

Fingers crossed that you're right.