Christmas is upon many at present.

People are willing to embrace of the fizz and excitement associated with Santa, but these same people are not always willing to embrace any benefits that may come from God, Mother Mary, Joseph or the Bible.

No, there not be a photo shot with Santa in a store or an ability to tell children about Santa coming on Christmas eve and leaving presents under a Christmas tree covered in decorations.

But what about the benefits coming from God? Many have not looked into or discovered these, because they see Christmas only from a commercial perspective, where it is all about buying presents and gifts to give to someone else.

The stories from the Bible,alongside other things God may be able to provide, seem to have little value to some.

But how to people know what God has to offer if they have not given him a try?

At present In Australia, it's estimated that 45 per cent of people will experience a mental health condition in their lifetime and in any one year, around 1 million Australian adults have depression, and over 2 million have anxiety.

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-facts

So it's quite clear the Christmas gifts aren't working and Santa isn't making a difference.

Dear Nathan,

It is normal for people to not be ready for God.
The majority of people are only interested in what this world has to offer, which itself is a step up from depression.
And that is OK, that is how it is meant to be, that is their current evolutionary step, it takes time, many lifetimes and many disappointments, for the inclination towards God to develop.

Would you feel sad why babies are so small and dependent, why don't they hurry to be grown ups already?
Let babies have Santa for now - they will eventually grow, by the grace of God, just give them the time.
And by the grace of God, rest assured that we will all eventually come to know Him and what He has to offer.

When it comes to Christmas there are a few myths, in fact a lot of myths, really it's all a myth. The jolly old man in the red suit was invented by the 'Coca Cola' company in the 1890's as a marketing ploy for their soft drink. The company colours of red and white fitted in well with Xmas. Image if their drink had been their other obnoxious brew 'Fanta' we would be stuck with the jolly orange man, and we all know who he is! Dangerous Doctor Donald. Who would want a visit from DDD at Xmas, or at any other time of the year for that matter. Santa was loosely based on Kris Kringle, this pagan mythical Nordic dude who liked to give gifts to little children, in today's PC KK would have been locked as being a pedo, and he had absolutely nothing to do with fizzy soft drink. Possibly there is a connection between the 'Coca Cola' company and the nativity story, it seems the 4th wiseman had a 6 pack of 'Coke' for the young Jesus, but he got the wrong bus and he didn't make it into town on time, well you know the story, it wasn't until the 1890's that the 'Coca Cola' company were able to correct the record.

Paul,
How dare you !!
Bringing reality to the worship of Santa is not good form.

Bringing reality to the worship of Santa is not good form.
Is Mise,
That is a typical example of missing the point ! Think about it, when children were exposed to such believes they developed their imagination. This imagination made them thi nk of great inventions. Now, since such imaginations are literally banned, such children are denied developing their potential & we ended up with the mindless, indoctrinated beyond their comprehension morons.
Imagination is one of the fundamental building blocks for a healthy mentality.
All we have today are mental cases !

I am not a 'Christmasy' person myself, but I respect what it stands for. I'm sure many of the young do not even know what Christmas represents, as people have been turning away from Christianity for more than one generation.

Christianity doesn’t just pop up in December each year. It is woven into Western culture. The culture we have enjoyed and benefited from would not have existed without Christianity. We should be very concerned about the ignorance of, and rejection of, Christianity itself, not what people do or don't do on one day of the year

Christmas is full of shiny things
That sparkle, gleam and glow
These holiday pleasures "dazzle us"
And yet,
Deep down, we know ...

That Christmas has its special gifts
Our year round joy depends
On the cherished people in our lives
OUR FAMILY, and friends! "

cont'd ...

Wishing ALL of you
A Great Day
And an exceptional year
Filled with kind deeds,
Love in your hearts,
Respect for each other.
May your beliefs light up
your lives and those of others!

Peace and Joy and Good Health to ALL!

This was written a few decades ago:

Where had the year so quickly flown?
A thought echoed in a reflection of a glass ball

The fragrance of pine
The shimmer of tinsel
Small packages nicely wrapped
For giving once a year

A Festive Season here again
Time for celebration
With family and friends
Broken promises renewed

What promise for the future?
The answer out of reach
In its place a quiet reality
The toll of church bells in the still night air

A birth proclaimed
A song took form
Sounds of voices breaking the silence
Joy and Peace to all on earth
At least this once a year.

CHRISTMAS ought to remind us to care for the weak, the lost and the poor and sick, though it is not a one of event it is a life given for others. In Christmas we remember the birth of Christ who amid suffering and conflict God revealed a true character to shine light into our World. He gave his life for others, both in his life and death.

The commercial opportunists and power moguls have perverted it for self-interest. It should be about the reflection of the inner character of each of us - the life that reflects the character of God.

Individual,

<<Think about it, when children were exposed to such believes (beliefs) they developed their imagination.>>

Regarding Santa: "It’s a lie. It degrades your parental trustworthiness, it encourages credulity, it does not encourage imagination (in terms of children and Santa), and it’s equivalent to bribing your kids for good behavior."

From David Kyle Johnson Ph.D - The Santa Claus Lie Debate.

To everyone,

The Santa myth or lie (whatever term you use), is unfortunately being passed onto future generations, regardless of the implications, the long term damage to people and the benefits of providing them with something else which has a relation to Christmas and people's lives, lets say God for example.

I agree credulity should not be encouraged (a tendency to be too ready to believe that something is real or true) and people should learn, grow and develop - but it doesn't mean it should come from Santa, it can come from elsewhere and from a range of areas. This can include books, story telling, nature play, dreams, learning, and discovery.

Parents need to stop putting out this Santa lie, that Santa is real and that there are lots of benefits that come from Santa being in existence. He is to my knowledge not real and should be put out as a story or fairy tale and nothing else or not at all.

God though is another question, something Atheists and others have not been able to prove - so I'll sit on the fence on that one and say to parents out there, why not give him a try, just to see how it all works.

A few light thoughts about this time of year:

Santa Claus has the right idea.
Visit people only once a year.

Santa wears a red suit. Must be a communist.
He has long hair and a beard. Must be a pacifist.
And what's that he's smoking in his pipe?

This holiday season, no matter what your religion is,
please take a moment to reflect on why it's better
than all the others.

A really mean act is to give a small child
a practical gift.

Hi there NATHAN J...

Personally I don't have any truck with people who believe or disbelieve in God. Whether it's Christmas, Easter, or any other time, it's their business entirely.

On the question of the existence of God, most of my young life I was a casual believer, and a Christian. Then I joined the Oz Military and was soon sent away to fight in a war we had no right in prosecuting. I very soon learned the sorrowful truth concerning his (Gods) existence.

I have incontrovertible proof of his non-existence. For any God who claimed to love us, who idly stood by, and who would allow us paltry human beings to slaughter, bring down such havoc and misery upon one another, must be mightily misguided, downright ill-advised or labouring under some sort of defect of the mind.

But at times like Christmas, Easter and other notable times in the Christian Calendar I believe we should live and let live irrespective of our personal beliefs. Therefore I see nothing wrong in bringing children some well deserved happiness, in an increasingly tough ol' world, if all that is needed is to celebrate a myth.

I was talking to the Easter Bunny and he told me Santa was all crap! When I can confirm that with the Tooth Fairy, I'll let you know for sure.

The woeful lack of imagination in the modern generations has given us the internet.
Long may their imaginations thus stagnate.

o sung wu,

I would like to believe that the Christian God exists but, in my lifetime, I haven't had any experience or feelings that indicate that he does. Like you, I don't differentiate between dogmatic believers or non-believers.

However, any "war we had no right in prosecuting" is fairly and squarely down to mortals, and I'm not sure what God - if he exists - could do about it. Neither am I sure that he would want to interfere. The advice about what happens if we don't live a Christian life has been around for 2,000 years. All the bad things that happen are down to us humans.

God or no God, Jesus Christ was real, and I believe that if we had all abided by his teachings, life and society would be much better than it is today.

Most kids when they discover the truth about Santa
realize it's part of growing up and any emotional
upset is extremely short-lived. It does no harm in
letting kids have a fantasy. We indulge them in
reading Harry Potter books, dressing them up for
Halloween, taking them to see "Frozen" we're always
inviting children into fantasy worlds. It stimulates
imagination and creativity.

Anybody remember the film - "Miracle on 34th Street?"
It still works today.

Dear O Sung Wu,

I can understand your feelings about God and
questioning His existence after what you
must have seen and experienced in war.
For me having gone through several difficult
times health-wise - made me turn to God and
as a result brought me calmness and peace.
I would have found having to cope without God
in my life very difficult during those times.

I guess each of us deals with things in different
ways.

Dear Nathan,

«God though is another question, something Atheists and others have not been able to prove»

Well both the Atheists and the others you mentioned assume in error that God must be SOMETHING. There are no grounds to believe so and even the Bible nowhere suggests that God were a THING. That idea of God being a thing, is unfound and born of human limited imagination: no wonder that those who look for something to call "God", fail to find "it"...

And being SOMETHING, one expects it to exist, unlike for example Santa who is something, but does not exist.
Once it is understood that God is not a SOMETHING, this question of His "existence" or otherwise falls and turns to be meaningless nonsense.

And who anyway would want to worship anything that exists (that, by definition would constitute idolatry)?
A bucket exists all right - so would you try to compare your God with a bucket?

Hope this helps!

Hi there TTBN...

As you say, the existence of Jesus Christ is a historical fact, but whether he's the Son of God, well, I wouldn't know? To say he is; is an admission that one believes in God's existence. Conversely I suppose if one says he's not, well that's another way of saying God exists? Am I wrong TTBN? I dunno mate?

But I agree with you absolutely, as a retired copperr; If human kind was to follow the teachings of the New Testament, or Jesus's teachings to be more specific, the human race would be in far better shape than it is today I believe. Still what would I know? I hope you and yours have a really great Christmas, and a healthy 2022.

Faith is like asking if you are the cells of your body - in a physically created sense - yes. But every cell of your body is exchanged every 21 years. If you understand that you are the character and actions performed in your body, you are closer to who you are. All that protein, oxygen, and liquid etc that you have consumed to make up your body has been other living creatures before you. So, you can only claim your living amd impact on this life is you. God exists in the same realm as God is the source of life and being. We can only find Him in repentance and forgiveness for how we fail. God is spirit.

Congratulations, Josephus,

«Faith is like asking if you are the cells of your body - in a physically created sense - yes. But every cell of your body is exchanged every 21 years. If you understand that you are the character and actions performed in your body, you are closer to who you are.»

Discovering this is an important milestone in your spiritual progress.

There is further to go.

«So, you can only claim your living amd impact on this life is you»

For now, but keep contemplating, there are still wonders to discover.
Me telling you who or what you are would be of no use, you need to find it out yourself.

«God exists in the same realm as God is the source of life and being.»

Yes. An analogy would be our dreams.

When you sleep and dream, you, the dreamer, are the source of your dreams.
You do not exist in your dream: the dream-character that you call "me" is only your distorted projection. Should someone in your dream claim that "there is a Dreamer who dreams all this", they could well be considered mad. Other dream-characters would state that no such Dreamer exists and demand: "show me your Dreamer, if you can"...

«We can only find Him in repentance and forgiveness for how we fail.»

Very true. We can only find God with a pure heart. Repentance and Forgiveness help us to purify our hearts.

This may shock some, and I don't mean to disrespect Jesus Christ, who was a great man of history, and a great teacher. The true founder of modern universal Christianity was Soul of Tarsus who is better known as Paul the Apostle, The nativity is only found in the Gospel of Luke, Luke was a close associate of Paul, and there is every likelihood he was the ghost writer for Paul's Gospel. More than half of the New Testament is the work of Paul. Jesus was born in Nazareth, but there were good reasons for Paul to move his birth place to the town of David, Bethlehem, as it was foretold the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Without Paul Christany would have failed, as the James brother of Jesus sect in Jerusalem did fail.

o sung wu,

All might be revealed sooner than we think. It seems that the 'expert' opinions of those chuntering on about people living longer have come to nothing, and this has been the case since 2010. We can't take anything for granted. Merry Christmas.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem as they went there from Nazareth to be with family for the Roman census.

emotional upset is extremely short-lived ..
Foxy,
My experience has always been a good laugh when kids realised that there was no Santa. Goes to show the difference in mentality in our circles !

talking to the Easter Bunny
Paul1405,
Yeah, the Rainbow Serpent & all those creatures that change into rocks or something else would probably have some answers as well.

Indigenous Australia has a rich and unique
belief system centred on the Dreamtime, when
the world was new and fantastic creatures
roamed the land. These include Bunjil the Eagle,
who stopped the sea from rising with his spear.

Tiddalik the Frog, who drank all the water
everywhere, but spat it up after an eel made him laugh.
Aboriginal beliefs feature many such animal spirits,
demonstrating their close affinity with the country
they inhabit and the respect for the wildlife that
sustains them.

Of course, as might be expected, these are fairly
naive and primitive beliefs, and it wasn't until the
arrival of white settlers that Aboriginal Australians
began to adopt proper religions based on more
sophisticated concepts such as pregnant virgins and
snakes promoting fruit-based diets (Adam and Eve).

Nevertheless, even without all the benefits and
technology and diseases of European settlement,
Australian Indigenous people lived fairly contented lives
for many thousands of years, having little contact
with the rest of the world and therefore missing out on
much of the war, genocide and plague that makes history so
much fun.

Some of the major events that the first Australians
never had the chance to enjoy include:

The Hundred Years' War

The Sack of Rome

The murder of Thomas Becket

The Black Death

The world premiere of Titus Andronicus

The time Caligula made his horse a senator

Braveheart

So it can fairly be said that though the Aboriginal
people may have believed themselves to be having a
pretty fun time, they were in danger of becoming
the wallflowers of the modern world, condemned to
miss out on the exciting adventures that the Native
Americans had been having since white men arrived
to give their humdrum lives a bit of spice.

Some Indigenous Australians did worry about this,
standing on the shore late at night, gazing out to
sea, wondering if they would ever know what it was
like to be massacred.

cont'd ...

cont'd ...

"Somewhere out there," they would murmur to
themselves, "is a place where dreams come true.
A place where anyone can be abducted and forcibly
converted to a foreign religion, if they believe
in themselves enough. And someday, they would
swear, "I too will know that feeling."

But that was all about to end. Australia was ready
to enter the modern world, with all its wonders.
"Life in the great southern land would never be the
same.

You can read more in Ben Pobjie's " Error Australis:
The reality recap of Australian History."

Foxy,
Just imagine a chilly night & no clothes or a broken limb or an infection on a hot day etc.
The only dreaming then was about a warm place to sleep or a cool place to rest & wishing the flies would go away !
Imagine that & being left behind by your mob because you were a burden !

individual,

You're imagining things from your limited white-man's
perspective. It's best not to comment until you learn
more about the Indigenous people and their culture.
And with so many different tribes and customs - that
is not going to be easy.

Ever heard of possum skin cloaks
of bush medicine?

possum skin cloaks
of bush medicine?
Foxy,
You forgot the Aeroguard !

individual,

No. It's only needed by white people who
are plump and juicy and thereby provide tasty meals
for insects.

Sandalwood is far more effective as an
insect repellant - which our Indigenous
people used.

Foxy,
You come across as if you're trying to score a job in the guilt industry !

individual,

Score a job in the guilt industry?

You flatter me.

"Every man is guilty of all the good
he did not do."
(Voltaire).

I wasn't aware that I was making you feel guilty.

However, if guilt leads to change then it can be useful
since it is then no longer guilt but the beginning of
knowledge. Yet all too often guilt is just another
name for impotence. It becomes a device to protect
ignorance and the continuation of things the way they are,
the ultimate protection of changelessness.

PBJ, there was no Roman census in Judea around 1AD. That's Biblical bs. Don't knock Paul, all Paul's are good blokes.

While Santa is not mentioned in the bible, the point of Xmas is to celebrate family even for an atheist like me and even for some of my Jewish friends.

As for Aboriginals Xmas is there to be enjoyed or ignored if they wish.

Other things aboriginals missed out on is written language, maths, all sciences, medicine, civilisation, agriculture, etc.

What many of them experienced was frequent wars, cannibalism, infanticide etc. and the hardships of a nomadic existence.

"Every man is guilty of all the good
he did not do."
(Voltaire).
Foxy,
Voltaire was the kind of dreamer you look up to ? I bet he never did a day's work to feed himself !

SM, how can you "miss out" on things you have never known or experienced? Did 19th century Europeans miss out on TV for example. Did pre-colonial Aboriginal people miss out on two world wars. Are we missing out on inter-galactic travel, or the wonders of "Ecocentraism" and all its fantastic benefit for mankind.

Did pre-colonial Aboriginal people miss out on two world wars.
Paul1405,
they had more than enough tribal fighting & other miserable conditions to make up !
Imagine their joy at their first cold beer or hot cuppa.
Then, the joy of getting fed & housed without having to put in any effort.
Of course I'm talking about the smart ones not the watered-down white clowns of late.

Christmas celebrates the birth of Christ. Easter recognises his crucxifiction (Good Friday) and his resurrection (Sunday). Most of the rest is bumf, particularly in countries like Australia, where people have been turning their backs on Christianity for 50 years. For them its time off, presents, feasting and getting pissed, which can lead to lots of nastiness in lots of families.

Indy, what drives you to HATE Aboriginal people so. You are a blow in, and Australia gave you everything, free housing, well paid work, then a pension for life, free of the sh!t hole you came from. Is it envy or greed that motivates you? Maybe both!

Why don't you tell us about that sh!t hole you came from, and the reasons you left.

To to those who go way off the discussion topic all I can say to you is "I wish you a merry Christmas and a happy new year".

I would also suggest developing a new years resolution or two, one being, to stay focussed on discussion topics on the On Line Opinion website for 2022 and beyond.

Ha ha,
Paul1405,
Typical, you always get nasty & resort to baseless character assassination when you're caught out.
I'm living in Aborigine country, do you ? I bet you're one of those useless bureaudroids milling around high rise flats pretending to be a friend of the indigenous. Bull ! Why then aren't you out in the communities working in infrastructure to keep everything going instead of calling those who do, racists !
You don't move a finger to help make life better for those who need help, you're only crawling with those lilly-white conrete jungle indigenous & stir them up against decent folk.
Have you actually ever worked in a remote community & were abused for thanks by those you crawl with ? Or, aren't you interested in working & living in indigenous communities because the pay is not what you get for being useless in the suburbs ?
Most hypocrites are like that.

Indy, you are clueless when it comes to aboriginal people. 80% live in urban and regional centres, not as you would have it in remote communities 12%. Western Sydney has the largest population, and in my work I spoke with aboriginal people almost daily in the inner burbs of Sydney. I responded to your sick attack on aboriginal people. It was the Whiteman's alcohol that has destroyed thousands of aboriginal lives.

How about filling us in on that sh!t hole you crawled out of to come to Australia.I bet it improved when you left.

Paul1405,
I hear Madagascar is in better shape since you departed !

Paul1405,
Is calling people racist your only alternative when you have no answer, it certainly looks like it !
I imagine you'd call your own mother racist if she disagreed with your insipid mentality !

Indy, you attack pre-colonial aboriginal people as living in "miserable conditions" without any evidence, then go on to say they must have enjoyed the whiteman's alcohol, a poison inflicted on aboriginals by the European. If anyone were living in miserable conditions it was the majority of Europeans. You denigrate aboriginal people on the Forum at every oppertunity. When I call your racism out you get all defensive. I suggest you came to Australia after living in miserable conditions yourself, but you won't say, you emigrated to escape a sh!t hole created by your "tribe", and that's understandable.

You most likely don't see yourself as a racists, which many racists don't. If I constantly attacked Jews in the negative way you attack aboriginals then it would be fair to say I am racists against Jews.

Paul1405,
Deceit & twisting truth are your trade mark ! When did I ever attack indigenous people?
If you're too stupid or too integrity-devoid that you call telling facts racism than you'd be better off going to an indigenous community & strut your stuff there. Buy a return ticket because you'll need it in less than a week !

Indy, we are all living on aboriginal country, what makes you special. Where's the evidence that pre-colonial aboriginals were living in "miserable conditions". I'll agree post colonization many aboriginals were living in miserable conditions, but that was thanks to the European.

I say your tribe turned your home into a sh!t hole with miserable living conditions, and that caused you to flee to Australia. Can't deny it, so think of your own circumstance before bucketing on others.

Nathan,

It is frustrating when some posters veer right of your topic, just so they can carry on pointless arguments among themselves. I say 'pointless' because nobody has ever changed his/her mind since I have been on OLO, and that's pretty close to the time it started. People don't change their core beliefs. All the back and forth, the citing of references that prove nothing except that somebody else thinks the same way as the querulous poster thinks - often where they got their idea in the first place - is a waste of time and effort.

How on earth your subject 'Santa yes, but no to God' was twisted around to Australian aborigines I can't even begin to imagine.

I often disagree with you, but I'm with you on this. Not that it will make any difference of course.

Hi Nathan,

Discussions do often wonder off on a tangent.
In this discussion the talk centred on myths
and mythology beginning with Santa, going on to
the Easter Bunny, and Individual raising the
topic of The Rainbow Serpent and Aboriginal
beliefs and thus explanations were given.
All of these topics were inter-related.
And made for a broader discussion.

In future though if you want to limit your
discussion to your set of beliefs only then
perhaps you should make that quite clear in
your opening post.

Dear Ttbn,

Thank you for your last comment.

It is indeed frustrating that, having once or twice posted on a thread, the topic changes and we are forced to follow that new nonsense, wasting our time just in case, perhaps someone replied to our old post here.

I am now officially out of here, so if anyone likes to reply to my posts, then please do so on some future new thread.

Paul1405,
You're not interested in bettering society by speaking up, your only interest is disrupting unity.
I know I've said it before but you're not worth replying to any longer !
I agree with Nathan & ttbn, we're way off the subject.
Go & argue with yourself & call yourself racist so you never get bored !

individual,

When you guys continue to provoke
you will get a reaction. But then
that's what you thrive on.

Criticizing someone for faults you also
possess - is a case of -pot, kettle, black.
And it was you who brought up the
Rainbow Serpent in this discussion.

Indy, you were the first to stir up a hornets nest about aboriginal people on this thread, then you complain about being off the topic. What a Wally!

Paul,

I see you still don't let facts get in the way of your bigoted ideology.

Just about every culture in the world had developed alcohol with "whites" being a tiny minority. Whites are not responsible for the indigenous peoples' inability to control themselves.

SM, not so, Aboriginal, Polynesian, Melanesians Maori people in our part of the world even Native Americans, did not develop alcohol. It was introduced by the European with devastating effect, mostly introduced with ulterior motive in mind, like stealing land. Unfortunately that doesn't suit your narrative, that all the ills that beset indigenous people's are down to a failure on their part.

Paul,

The Japanese, Chinese, Hawaii (Polynesian), pre-Columbian America, the 100s of different tribes of Africa all developed alcohol.

Look it up. There are only a few isolated cultures that didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_alcoholic_drinks

Alcohol was made in Australia by the colonists for their own consumption not to corrupt the indigenous. The ills of the Aboriginals are not all entirely self-inflicted but many are.

SM,

Why do you attempt to underscore the malicious use of alcohol by the European to subjugate native people. I have a book on Native Americans, in a 19th century recipe for 'fire water' commonly produced to "trade" with the Indians. It contained such nasties as turpentine and saltpetre, deadly stuff.

In Australia's case the early European colony was awash with cheap spirit, and it was used to "trade" with the natives. The big 3 evils of the European; disease, the gun and alcohol, all tools used to disposes native people.

BTW, alcohol consumption which had been introduced by Cook in 1778 was illegal in Hawaii for the common people until King Kamehameha III lifted the ban in the 1830's at the insistence of European settlers.

It's odd that people who are always singing the the praises of non-white people, and condemning whites for corrupting those wonderful, innocent natives are also willing to say that their favourites have no will power or intelligence to say no. Whitey just handed out grog, and darkie was too stupid realise that the stuff went straight to his brain, and in a short time, he lost control. You only need the experience once to get the message. Who's to blame when whitey himself loses control? Alcohol is non-discriminatory. It affects everyone the same way. I think much of the waffle we see here comes from alcohol. Some of the rubbish could surely not come from a sober mind.

Paul,

Given the litany of dangerous food additives in recent years incl glycol in alcohol in Bali, melanin in Milk in China etc, most of these deadly additives are made for profit. So one "recipe" in one book in the US is hardly proof that this was a consistent policy or even vaguely relevant to Aus.

Epic Fail.

SM,

Read any half decent history book on Native Americans, and it will tell you that from earliest times Europeans, such as fur traders and others, extensively used alcohol as trade with the Indians. Likewise in Australia and elsewhere, Europeans used alcohol as an insidious weapon to exploit the native population. I don't expect you or others who think like you would want to believe that, as it don't suit your distorted narrative of European colonisation and dispossession.

Did have the pleasure of accompanying the wife to a talk here in Brisbane, before covid, given by a Native American chap from the Navajo Nation, he said he was 85 years old, he was on a lecture tour speaking on indigenous matters. Interesting that a common thread for all indigenous people where extensive European colonization has taken place is dispossession, once displaced alcoholism becomes a major problem in native communities.

In NZ one of the reasons some Maori chiefs were in favour of a treaty with the British was to try and put a stop to the devastating effects European alcohol was having on the native population. The settlement of Russell in the Bay Of Islands was known as the hell hole of the Pacific.

Paul,

I have read a reasonable amount on native Indians and while their treatment by new Americans was terrible, I have yet to find anything that attributes the fall of the native population in any degree to alcohol.

As your speaker said, it was after they were dispossessed that alcohol became a problem.

SM, alcohol does not alone cause the total destruction of communities, but it certainty not a positive. In the slums of London in the 19th century alcoholism was rampant, gin shops, sly grog was everywhere.

Paul,

That alcohol can be a destructive force is not in debate, whether it was systematically used to dispossess aboriginal tribes of their land is what you have claimed and completely failed to demonstrate.

Alcohol ravaged all societies including those of the colonists.