SBS and NITV is promoting the idea we should adopt aboriginal culture as our primary culture in Australia because it has survived foe 60,000 years unchanged. Most imigrants come from the Northern Hemisphere, from an evolving cultures that has given us the modern World. It has equally survived by evolution for a similat time, but we do not hear of the developments of these Cultures that make up Modern Australia developing over 60,000 years. Vague platitudes are used in the promotion to immagine we are aboriginals - this according to the promotion will make us genuine aboriginals and have affinity to country; even though we were born here and our ancestors have built Modern Australia. I cannot find one item from aboriginal culture that has contributed to my life as in 60,000 years they have merely learned to survive in the environment and act as hunter gatherers. Which my ancestors did 60,000 years ago..

Did they really say "unchanged"? Or did you add that assumption?
Culture is dynamic; it constantly changes!

Hi Nathan,

From what I've read - my understanding of what
is being asked of us differs from you're putting
forth. Perhaps I misunderstand you.

From what I can gather - NITV (National Indigenous
Television) as part of the
SBS network, on Sunday 12th December 2021 has asked
its audiences to re-think our identity as a nation.

They have invited Australians to have an honest
conversation about this country's past and work towards
a future which would be fuelled by all the vibrancy of
colours in Australia today, and under-pinned by years of
tradition, resilience and strength of our 1st Nations
people and cultures.

In other words - they want the
true story of our nation's history to be told and a
recognition of our First Nation's people and for us to
learn about their cultures and traditions.

I don't think they want to impose anything on anybody.
They simply are asking for better understanding and for
us to learn about who they are as a people.

And how many of us really know or can even come close to
saying that we are familiar with our Indigenous people?

Very few of us I dare say.

People supporting this request include -
Ernie Dingo, Adam Goodes, Osher Gunsberg, Jeff McMullen,
Archie Roach, Kerry O'Brien, Samantha Harris, Tim Minchin,
Adam HIll, to mention just a few.

I don't see the problem. Our country's history should
be told and it should include our Indigenous people.
Learning about them would only enrich us and our
identity as Australians. It would unite us as a nation
with the people and culture that was here before us.
And that's something that is long overdue.

cont'd ...

Oh dear. My apologies. I addressed my previous post to
Nathan. Excuse the typo and sorry Nathan.

It should have read -
"Hi Josephus..."

BTW : Are you an American? And are you against the
American Indian History being taught and acknowledged
in the US as well?

Just curious.

What a marvelous idea.

Just imagine adopting the customs and traditions of our first people.

We'd all be so much better off.

"SBS and NITV is promoting the idea we should adopt aboriginal culture as our primary culture in Australia because it has survived foe (sic) 60,000 years unchanged".

What a ridiculous idea, if it's true. It's hard to imagine even the left wankerati thinking that even aborigines themselves would want to do such a thing. Whereas Western culture was constantly evolving for the better, Aboriginal culture did not change at all over 60,000 years. They were still in the Stone Age when we arrived in 1788. I wonder what an intelligent woman like Jacinta Price would have to say about such rubbish. "Rubbish", probably. An insult to all Australians, but especially to modern, aboriginal- background Australians.

In 1788 Aboriginal society (for want of a more appropriate term) was probably the most misogynistic of the time and among the most misogynistic of all time.

In the Aboriginal world, women were slaves in all but name, able to be sold or gifted, and little more than property chattel.

I know that not all would agree, but I'm certainly in favour of adopting that culture. We would become the envy of the world. Only racists who want to denigrate the wonderful world of pre-Cook 'Australia' would dispute that.

This post coincides with a photograph and an article I saw today.

The photograph is of a group of Australian women of aboriginal descent holding up a placard saying: "STOP FAMILY VIOLENCE IT'S NOT IN OUR CULTURE".

But family violence, particularly against women, is part of Australian aboriginal culture.

"Virtually every white observer of aboriginal life in colonial Australia remarked on the shocking mistreatment of women almost invariably found in Aboriginal tribes throughout Australia", writes WD Rubenstein, ex Chair of History at Deakin University, in "The Mistreatment Of Women in Aboriginal Society". (References: George Chaplin, 'The Native Tribes of South Australia'; James Dawson, 'Australian Aborigines: The Languages and Customs of Several Tribes of Aborigines in the Western District of Victoria'; Tom Petrie, 'Reminiscences of Early Queensland'; George Taplin, 'The Narrinyeri: One Account of the Tribes of South Australian Aborigines'; H.E.A Myer, "Manners and Customs of the Aborigines Of the Encounter Bay Tribe, South Australia'.

Perhaps if the people at SBS did a bit more research - or any research - they might not have come up with such rot.

They might be right about the culture being unchanged for 60,000 years. We don't get too in the way of truth about aboriginal culture these days.

Dear Josephus,

There is much merit in your suggestion, but I rather take the best from both cultures and avoid the worsts.

One practical problem is, that aboriginal culture was only practiced with low-density population and has no chance of physically supporting the current population levels.

Western culture has made painful compromises just to allow a larger population to survive - while these ought to be undone, no sane culture can be achieved without first drastically lowering the population numbers.

" The first inhabitants of Australia were of course
the Aboriginal people who generations of Australians
remember from that one history class where the teacher
mentioned them."

"But the original inhabitants would not have thought
of themselves as "Australia," the 250 individual nations
that occupied the continent had yet to gain the wonderful
sense of national unity that white men brought to
Australia, along with other marvellous innovations such
as guns and smallpox."

"For many thousands of years, these people lived in
total ignorance of what they were missing out on, not
even knowing how deprived they were until their European
benefactors came along to teach and/ or kill them."

" When the First Fleet sailed into Sydney Cove in 1788,
... it was not Australia to which
they thought they had journeyed. It didn't much matter
what they called it, though, the Fleeters considered
themselves British, and the fact that they were on the
other side of the world would not stop them feeling that
way, or wearing completely inappropriate clothing for the
climate."

"In fact it took some time for the British and their
descendants in Australia to stop thinking of England as
"home." Some say the tendency only really died out when
Robert Menzies passed away in 1978 at the age of 6000."

"Australia - under any name - was viewed as an outpost of
the British Empire far beyond the point at which this
perception was literally true or even remotely reasonable."

"And yet somehow, the diverse peoples of the Indigenous
nations and the deluded white criminals of the
motherland ended up forming a single nation, this amazing
land we call Australia, which combines all the best of
its brutally cruel origins with the finest in
modern complacency and self-deception."

When did Australia truly begin and who
were the "first Australians?" - the people who invented
the idea of being Australian, and began the long, slow trek
towards discovering exactly what being an Australian means?
Get hold of the book - "Aussie Aussie Aussie" by Ben Pobjie.
It explains it all.

“Aussie Aussie Aussie”, one of Pobje’s funniest yet.

i had a few minutes this afternoon so decided to turn on NITV. There was a childrens program running, it presented aboriginal culture in shadows of spirits and sacred stones. I would denounce this as pagan superstition presented to children as normal aboriginal beliefs. Aboriginal cultural beliefs are based in superstition - and intelligent aboriginals would call them such. We are allowing superstition instead of fact to flow into the conciousness of children with such programs. Next we will be educating children that pointing the bone as a form of cursing someone we want to get rid of.

Our culture should teach "We forgive those that do evil to us; so that we might be forgiven. "

The opening post is absolute BS, put up by a forum racists with a well known anti-aboriginal bias. There is no; "promoting the idea we should adopt aboriginal culture as our primary culture in Australia because it has survived foe 60,000 years unchanged." by SBS or NITV or anyone else I am aware of, a couple of the "Usual Suspects" are seen to pile on in their racists fashion. Proud Boy Jose' back to America, back with the red necks where you belong.

THANKS FOXY FOR THE TRUTH TELLING!

Typical of Paul he fails to debate the SBS promotion of culture instead launches personal attacks. Obviously he defends this primitive cultre and is offended that others can debate its values.

I've had friends who rescued and raised the weaker twin babies that aboriginal mothers placed on ants nests to be eaten by ants in the NT. For many we have moved to a more humane killing method for the unwanted by a surgical method of disecting thenm apart in the womb.

Have we actually advanced from stone age behaviour?

PBJ,

Neither SBS or NITV are promoting culture in the way you portray. A 5 year old could understand what is being said, yet you do not, could that have anything to do with your racism, me thinks so. Like all your other negative aboriginal stories the ants nest may well be a lie, I don't know. As for my aboriginal ancestors no ants nest, no chopping up of babies, just hard working farmers, sorry to disappoint. As for debate, who wants to debate your lie, not me. Anyway Foxy has told the true story. I agreed, end of debate.

Dear Josephus,

Talking about superstitious beliefs?

Bwn Pobjie covers this topic very well.
He tells us that:

Indigenous Australians have a rich and unique belief
system centred on the Dreamtime, when the world was new and
fantastic creatures roamed the land. Their beliefs feature
many animal spirits, demonstrating their close affinity
with the country they inhabit and the respect for the
wildlife that sustains them.

Of course, as might be expected, these are fairly naive and
primitive beliefs, and it wasn't until the arrival of
white settlers that Aboriginal Australians began to adopt
proper religions based on more sophisticated concepts such as
pregnant virgins and snakes promoting fruit-based diets
(Adam and Eve).

Nevertheless, even without all the benefits and technology and
diseases of European settlement, Australia's Indigenous people
lived fairly contented lives for many thousands of years,
having little contact with the rest of the world and
therefore missing out on much of the war, genocide and
plagues that made history so much fun.

Because Australian Aboriginal culture is so old and intricately
connected to Country, it has a wealth of knowledge about
how to look after and service this land.

A lot of this information help us with contemporary problems:
fire management (bushfires), culinary recipes ( making bush
foods edible), plant wisdom (using native plants to replace
water hungry imports) and much more.

Aboriginal culture enriches the diversity of Australia's
society and provides deep links into ancient history and
offers different views of living in this country as well
as a wealth of stories, music, dance, art and craft.
Legacies living and worth preserving and learning from.

Dear Paul,

Bless you and enjoy your day.

Take care and stay safe.

The Aborigines have the creation story of the Rainbow Serpent. The Christian missionaries promoted the creation story in the Bible. Both creation stories are the product of primitive peoples trying to make sense of the world. To usher the Aborigines into the modern world it would be good to promote a scientific worldview and acknowledge that the Bible and the Rainbow Serpent are both products of pre-scientific minds.

There is beauty in both Genesis and the story of the Rainbow Serpent. However, neither is a good guide for understanding the modern world.

Actually it might be a good idea to encourage the formalisation of
aboriginal land management and food processes.
If as it seems we are committed to the green vision of energy and the
general green future design we will need aboriginal techniques to survive.
If there are enough young people who survive the coming madness we
might have enough cultural memory to rebuild better ! Ha !

We can always do better if we really try.

Shocking as it is there is still a lot of work to
be done -to
promote the social and cultural inclusion of Indigenous
Australians.

Western civilization has a strong presence in the history
curriculum. The Indigenous history also needs to be
included. It wasn't until 2011 that the National curriculum
implemented across Australia granted educators and
teachers chances to tackle the 50,000 year of Aboriginal
histories for the first time.

The innovation of the National History Curriculum provides
opportunities for the Reconciliation of the Aboriginal
histories and cultures and helps deconstruct the
stereotypes about Australia's history before the British
settlement in 1788.

In order for things to change we need deeper engagement,
respect, and acknowledgement for the 1st Australian's
achievements. If we continue to exclude people - we cannot
expect anything to change.

The sad facts are that new analysis from the Australian
National University ( ANU) shows that 75% of Australians
tested for unconscious bias hold a negative implicit or
unconscious bias against Indigenous Australians proving
" a solid invisible barrier that Indigenous people face
in society." This need to change and it can - through
education and inclusion of our Indigenous people.

PBJ

In 1629 John Dean aged 8 or 9 was the youngest person legally hanged in England. Although younger children were tortured to death as witchers, by good Christian folk like you. But no ants nest just all sorts of other instruments of torture! Do you good Christians stills beat children with straps and cairns?

Here is the NITV promotion.
"The campaign asks audiences to rethink our identity as a nation. Together, NITV invites Australians to have an honest conversation about this country’s past, and work towards a future fuelled by the vibrancy of cultures in Australia today, and underpinned by 60,000 years of tradition, resilience and strength of First Nations peoples and cultures.'
http://tvblackbox.com.au/page/2021/12/12/nitv-asks-audiences-to-reimagine-australia-as-it-unveils-new-brand/

It promotes aboriginal stories how they immagine their past and they want all cultures to accept them as part of how the World is to be viewed.

Dear Josephus,

Sounds fair enough.

We learned about other cultures at school (and are still
learning) why not include our own Indigenous
people in this education?

Thanks for bringing all this to our attention.

Well done.

listen to the aboriginal voices and grasp what they want, it is to do with identity with and adoption of 60,000 years of culture and history.
http://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/12/02/sasha-sarago-identity-and-decolonising

It is not accepting the diversity of multiculturalism, but promoting as the dominant culture because they own the land - other cultures in its view cannot feel the same about the land and do not have a 60,000 year link to this land. So the link to the land and the spirits become the focus of the cultural worship - animism.

Dear Josephus,

Go back an re-read the post you cited from the previous
link you gave us. Your interpretation does not quite
gel with what you've quoted to us.

There is nothing but God.

Thinking that God might have rivals, any competing entities, anything or anywhere where He could be absent, is so ridiculous.

Everything, whatever it seems to be, is in truth God. It is only due to our limited senses and minds that we perceive reality as independent objects with separate forms and names.

All qualities too, are but manifestations of the One and only God. Different qualities all emerge from God, yet God is not bound by any of them.

Since our minds are limited and impure, we cannot conceive God with our mind.
As much as we want to worship God and thank Him for all we are and all we have, we don't know how to do it. Rare indeed is the person who is able to worship God in total abstract without imagining Him having this quality or the other - the rest, the vast majority of us, need some object or the other to represent God for us and instill some sense of reality into our prayers.

For many in the West, God is represented by the Bible, by the cross, by the holy chalice, by the bread turned body-of-Christ, etc. Anything more tangible that gives our connection with God more sense of reality.
Nobody ever suggests that we pray to a book, that we worship a chalice of wine or a piece of bread, that we think of a cross-symbol to be God. These are only representations of God. Reinforced by the positive concentrated energy of generations of worshipers, they help us direct our attention away from the mundane and toward the Divine.

For others it could be the Kaaba in Mecca, or the Torah scroll: nobody ever suggests that God is a rock or a leather scroll.

[continued...]

[...continued]

So for aboriginals who live in nature, it is quite possible that certain animals remind them most of God, inspire them most to worship, most effective in directing their minds towards the Divine. For most of us it is hard to conceive how animals could inspire us toward God and elevate our thoughts, how animals could possibly entice anyone to be thankful to God for all He provides us with, but this is only because we live in cities, meet most animals only on screens and real animals perhaps only in zoos.

So it would be utterly silly and artificial to ask us to worship animals.
Rather, the call should be to come and live closer to nature, to smell the earth, to get out of cities, to shun excessive technology, etc.
Suppose we worship a cross, then make a wooden cross from local trees, cut roughly by our own hands rather than smoothly by machinery.

Then when we obtain food, by God's grace and not from supermarkets, when truly hungry and not overfed, we will more likely feel the urge to thank God for this food. After some generations, possibly (but not necessarily) our grand-grand-children might naturally associate the animals and plants they eat with God, and should that happen then let them worship God through that food. Nothing wrong with this if it happens naturally - for everything is God anyway!

Where can I read call about this 60,000 years of Indigenous culture?

Hi Foxy,

You're too kind, reading PBJ's opening post and having seen what is actually being presented, and given his forum record of racism, I say he purposely misrepresented the facts to put the boot into aboriginal people.

The same bloke posts this; "aboriginal mothers placed on ants nests to be eaten by ants" implying its indicative of aboriginal culture, the charmer ttbn adds; "Virtually every white observer of aboriginal life in colonial Australia remarked on the shocking mistreatment of women almost invariably found in Aboriginal tribes throughout Australia". These are the same murdering colonial savages bashed the heads off aboriginal babies with polo mallets, or cut the penis and balls off aboriginal men, just to watch them run around in agony until they bled to death! Raped and murdered aboriginal women.

Just down the road from me; Hannah Baxter and her three children died after the car they were in was set on fire by her estranged white man husband in the Brisbane suburb of Camp Hill. Hannah was taken to hospital in a critical condition but later died from her injuries, the children died at the scene. Is this White culture?

Foxy I have to stop, I might get angry.

Paul you are denying the cultural history of an aboriginal tribe in the Northern Territory, who practised offering the second twin to the Earth. My friends Missionaries took those abandoned children in and raised them. The same tribe when a man took a wife if she did not submit to his wishes, bashed her until she did. It was cultural. You have the gall to post an abusive case that has nothing to do with culture but is criminal and compare the two. Where in Australian is this behaviour accepted as culture.

The snake in the Genesis story refers to one who promotes deceptive religion, challenging the revelation of God - "do not believe what God says". Revealing the heart of man even today - deceived by lies

Dear Paul,

Don't despair. So many good people are supporting
what is being asked and most Australians do see
the need for deeper engagement and respect for
our 1st Australian's achievements. Acknowledging
their history and them will happen. I am quite
sure of that. The nay sayers will be left behind.
Take heart.

Hi Foxy,

I watched Erine Dingo's show on NITV tonight, btw a great episode on the town of Broome WA, they ran a couple of their "cultural inclusion" ads, how anyone could be upset by them is beyond me. I suppose our forum friends are, just as they are too busy tuned into the Fuhrer Channel on KKK TV watching re-runs of Joe Goebbles speeches with sub-titles. Gotta laugh.

Very few people in Oz today could survive a hunter gather life style, & that includes all but a few aboriginals as well. Take the guns, four wheel drives & out board powered tinnies of those who still practice a bit of the old ways, & they would not fare much better than us.

Years ago I knew a couple of old timers who had survived the depression mostly on what they could get out of the salt water estuary they lived on, but it was a very bare existence, only made possible with large fish traps that required modern steel to be available, & very few competing for what was available. Such traps are illegal today, they are too efficient.

I have seen the remnants of aboriginal stone fish traps on the tidal flat on Magnetic island. Those people would have lived well, if strong enough to defend their construction & catch. The owner of the small resort at West Point had duplicated the design in steel & wire, & found it very efficient. However there are not many places with sheltered water, & gently sloping beaches with big tides to suit such designs, & of course they are illegal today.

Personally the idea of wandering around naked throwing rocks & sticks at anything that moved, trying to catch something to eat tonight does not appeal. I'll stick to the supermarket & the odd home grown steer thanks.

Dear Josephus,

Christian superstition with its man-god, virgin birth and other nonsense is better than pagan superstition? Let everybody enjoy his or her superstition.

60000-year-old culture? What a load of bollocks.

All cultures evolve over time and without any written records the culture 300 years ago is unknown let alone 1000 or 60 000 years ago.

When you consider the decline of native art vis a vis the Bradshaw culture and the fact that some tribes actually 'forgot' how to make fire, we can say that, at least in some case, the native culture didn't evolve but rather devolved.

I've never understood this swooning over the fact or assertion that the aboriginal culture is [insert latest fantasy number] years old. Literally every other peoples on the planet managed to find ways to improve their lot and that of following generations. Australian natives alone failed to find ways to advance their culture and in many cases merely found ways to reduce their cultural output. In a more honest world, anthropologists would be studying so-called native culture to understand this phenomena. But in the currently charged arena, any anthropologist doing so would be committing career suicide

David f Your view is the superstition of the man god.

The fact is in Jesus we identify the true nature of God, His spirit reveals God. He lived life how the Creator intended - that is why he is spoken of as the Way, the Truth the Life. Read the story of Mary as a child at temple. As a young girl she was given the role as identified by Isaiah to give birth to a Deliverer; the zealots believed it was deliverance from Roman occupation. However he recognised his mission was for the World, a mission far greater than nationalism. His kingdom is not of this world's systems but for each individual in their relationship to God. the only way to deliver the World is by each individual accepting deliverance.

Not to worry. Even fewer people - around 7% - watch SBS than watch the ABC. I saw the ad for this dopey program last night while watching 'Red Election'. SBS is good for the sort of drama that used to be seen on the ABC. I turn off the sound when the multicultural, racist-left stuff interrupts.

Dear Josephus,

You don't recognise your beliefs as superstition. That is your blindness. A God that is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent doesn't need a sidekick like Jesus. There is no evidence at all that a God exists. You think you have the truth. So do believers in Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, tribal religions and all the other varieties of belief in a supernatural. There is no reason to put your beliefs above other beliefs. I think it is arrogant of you to do so. In my view the Christian superstition is simply one of many superstitions. Humanity may free itself from religious superstition. It may not. Almost 2,000 years ago humans invented Christianity. Since then humans have invented other religions. Seneca said, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful.

Dear David,

«Seneca said, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful.»

That may have been so in his times: today, religion is regarded by the common people as either superstition or a social club, by the wise as the purpose of life and by the rulers as dangerous competition.

«A God that is omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent doesn't need a sidekick like Jesus. There is no evidence at all that a God exists»

In fact, simple logic can demonstrate that God cannot exist.
But as the saying goes, one cannot serve two masters: it's either God or existence. The common people today value existence more than God, including even many who consider themselves religious and only cling to God because they [mistakenly] think that He exists.

Yet as far as we can tell, Jesus did exist, and by his wisdom and selfless example showed his disciples the path to God. Obviously God did not need him (or anyone or anything else for that matter), but people do, and if what we read about Jesus is correct, or even mostly correct, then he was very much needed in his time.

" Humanity may free itself from religious superstition.".

But it doesn't. As one religion is rejected it is replaced by another....

http://www.environment.gen.tr/religion-and-ecology/276-gaia-worship-the-new-pagan-religion.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_goddess

"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything."

mhaze: "Australian natives alone failed to find ways to advance their culture and in many cases merely found ways to reduce their cultural output. In a more honest world, anthropologists would be studying so-called native culture to understand this phenomena."

Personally, though not an anthropologist, I can offer a few plausible reasons why their societies never increased much in complexity (most of these reasons are due to the nature of the environment that they lived in):

-no native animal that you can easily domesticate and control in a herd (*1)
-no native grain that lends itself to be bred to produce bountiful harvests (grains are exceptionally useful foods because they can be stored and transported easily)
-no native animal suitable to be a beast of burden (or for draughting wagons- but they never got anywhere near the wagon stage so this talking of draughting is moot)
-with a few notable exceptions (eg:the Murray) lack of inland fresh water with a reliable steady supply of potable water and food (eg: fish)
-with a few notable exceptions, lack of navigable waterways to move themselves/materials/goods/food
-they never advanced their maths and logical reasoning to a level which advanced civilization needs nor did they progress much in the way of permanent record keeping (*2)

* 1): While you can train individual kangaroo's and they do move in mobs, they're nowhere near the same level of ease to manage as our domesticated animals. Our domesticed animals don't need to be handled/trained much to be manageable. For example, I own a rural investment property which my neighbour runs goats on, and it surprises me how even young little kids can be herded and managed. We humans can effortless highjack their natural herding behaviours and social dynamics to our advantage to control them.

-- continued below --

-- from above --

* 2): To be honest, the invention of maths/formal reasoning and record keeping is in a feedback loop with the progression of civilization- one helps the the other develop. So because the across most of the land mass of Australia (except on the coastal fringe and down south) they were hunter/gathers who never took the fist initial steps of permanent settlement there never needed much in the way of maths or records. Mathematicians and scribes are the ones that are most necessary for the advancement of civilization and the aboriginals didn't have any.

Lets take a brief look at the ways our Indigenous
Australians are making an enormous contribution to
life in Australia.

Firstly, in the field of language. There are hundreds
of words from our Indigenous origins. Names for our
flora and fauna (kangaroo, koala, billabong). Place
names (Bondi, Canberra, Parramatta). We can then move onto
sport where names like Evonne Goolagong, Lionel Rose,
Adam Goodes, Cathy Freeman, Ash Barty stand out. And
in the field of music we have - Yothu Yindi, Jimmy Little,
Archie Roach, Christine Anu, to name just a few.

In the fields of Art, Literature, theatre - (Bangarra
Dance Theatre), many names
spring to mind as they do with the tourism industry -
where Uluru, Kakadu, Arnhem Land, The Pinnacle Desert,
Flinders Ranges, Blue Mountains, and the list goes on.

We have contributions made in the fields of politics
(Neville Bonner, Ken Wyatt, Linda Burney, Nova Peris,
Pat Dodson, et al) and in television and film (Stan Grant,
Deborah Mailman, Ernie Dingo, and many more).

Indigenous Australian culture still influences Australian
society today and will continue to do so well into the
future of this country.

cont'd ...

I left out many names due to the posting word limit - but
these should have been included :

David Gulpilil, Jessica Mauboy, Miranda Tapsell,
Shareena Clanton to name a few more.

Thanks again Foxy, and there have been tens of thousands of aboriginal people who have contributed to Australia since white settlement in ordinary ways without recognition.

Dear Paul,

What's even worse is that despite discrimination and
exclusion thousands of our Indigenous people have
served in the Australian Defence Forces since 1860s
and possibly earlier. More than 1000 in the first World War
and more than 4,000 in the 2nd.

There is an Aboriginal War Memorial plaque in Canberra set up
NOT by the Australian government but by private citizens.

It is not in the spotlight and is not easy to find.

You can find the Aboriginal War Memorial Plaque in the
vicinity of the Australian War Memorial. A ten minute
walk away.

The Australian War Memorial is now committed to producing a
list which will be displayed in the new galleries.

Nothing more needs to be said.

Foxy: Why should the government commission a separate plaque for the aboriginals? The war memorial is about the Australian Defense Forces and its members who served in battle- it is for all members who served. In shouldn't be in the business about highlighting one group of soldiers over another just because of their genetic inheritance. If you start going down this route then surely you would have to have plaques for those who a left-handed, then another for those with freckles, and one for those with index fingers longer than ring fingers, etc.
Our soldiers/sailors/air personnel are remembered for their own actions and sacrifice not because of the their genetics.

Hi Foxy,
Aboriginal folk fought in whiteman's wars at a time, unlike left handed Australians they were not even considered to be citizens. Not even worthy of swimming in the same water hole as a whiteman.

Please stop pointing out any good in aboriginal people, its very upsetting to some of the Forum Old Farts, it doesn't fit their racists narrative. They will tell you ALL aboriginal people are drunken bumbs, who beat their women, and the women throw their babies on ants nests. WHAT A PATHETIC BUNCH OF LOOSERS SOME OF OUR OLD FARTS ARE!

In the United States some people object to the Black Lives Matter movement by saying all lives matter. However, blacks appear to be a special target of trigger happy police. The Black Lives Matter movement is necessary since many have the perception that black lives matter less than other lives. By the same token it is good to have a recognition of the special contribution that Aborigines have made since many think of Aborigines as not as worthy as other Australians.

I’d still like to read the 60,000 year old history.
Tell me where to find it,, someone; just a link or two will d o the trick.

thinkabit,

"I can offer a few plausible reasons why their societies never increased much in complexity"

All civilisations grew out of the domestication of plants. primarily grains like wheat, barley, rice, maize. Domesticated grains leads to surplus which then provides feed stock for animals that can now be domesticated. That extra food then leads to other surpluses and allows some members of society to devote their efforts to things other than growing food - things like pottery, metallurgy and weaving. It also leads to trade. Trade leads to the need to record transactions which leads to increasingly complex writing systems such as cuneiform and hieroglyphs.

So the starting point for the aboriginals would have been to domesticate some plant. It's claimed by apologists for that failed culture that no such plant exists. But that's rubbish. When you look at the wild plants that lead to, say, wheat they aren't inspiring. Imagine looking at a paspalum weed and thinking you could build a civilisation on it. Well that's effectively what the early Levantine farmers did. There are any number of candidates in Australia. One that is grown in many parts of Australia today is Lomandra. It creates enormous quantities of seed even without trying to use it as a crop and it self-seeds readily. The natives used it as bush-food but it never occured to them to cultivate it.

Equally livestock. Comparing Australian wild stock with current domesticated stock is invalid. Compare it with the undomesticated stock in Asia and Europe 12000 years ago. Do current wild boars look like candidates for domestication? Buffalo? Yet by getting a few head and breeding for tameness, domestic pigs and cattle were created. A couple of 1000 years devoted to, say smaller wallabies or wombats might achieve the same - assuming they had the surplus feedstock which they never did...see above.

Every nascent civilisation faced its own special series of problems yet found ways to get past those problems - except for one.

The thread is about luvvies wanting Australia to adopt bits and pieces of aboriginal culture.

Lauding aboriginals who adopted and succeeded at Australian/Western culture is either entirely beside the point or evidence against the SBS desires.

Dear Mhaze,

«I can offer a few plausible reasons why their societies never increased much in complexity»

But is complexity desirable?
Maybe they were just not interested?!

«Every nascent civilisation faced its own special series of problems yet found ways to get past those problems - except for one.»

You assume that aboriginals wanted to have a civilisation.
You further assume that whatever you perceive as problems, they too perceived as such.

«The thread is about luvvies wanting Australia to adopt bits and pieces of aboriginal culture.»

Yes and it is most impractical: we are not ready for it, we are too materialistic and also far too many.
Merely adopting aboriginal mannerisms, arts and languages without actually living independently in nature like they did, is inorganic and would produce nothing of value.
In fact, it would only increase the complexity of life, not reduce it.

«Lauding aboriginals who adopted and succeeded at Australian/Western culture is either entirely beside the point»

Indeed. They no longer follow the aboriginal way of life.

Hi Yuyutsu

This thread is not about "luvvies wanting Australia to adopt bits and pieces of aboriginal culture." as a racists like mhaze would say. No its about inclusion, appreciation and acceptance, something a bigoted racist cannot do. Seeing the ads, and reading the garbage put up by the forum haters, one can see why there is still a way to go before true equality is achieved in this country

That's good ol' Paul for ya. He can't mount anything even approaching a logical thought or thought-process. But in the low-evidence world he inhabits, calling someone racist, even without the slightest evidence, is considered a win and the height of logic.

what a berk.

Somehow poor ol' Paul thinks that lauding the achievements of people with some aboriginal blood in western culture proves how great aboriginal culture was. Yeah, I know....makes precisely no sense...but that's poor ol' Paul for ya.

mhaze,

"slightest evidence", the evidence is all over this forum with your anti- aboriginal posts. Provide evidence that "(the) luvvies wanting Australia to adopt bits and pieces of aboriginal culture."

The meaning of ADOPT; choose to take up, follow, or use.

Pointing out that aboriginal society was a stone-age culture, isn't racist....its factual.

Pointing out that aboriginal women were slaves in all but name and were treated as property, isn't racist....its factual.

Pointing out that aboriginal women suffer domestic violence at horrendous rates, isn't racist....its factual.

Pointing out that some aboriginals were cannibals , isn't racist....its factual.

Pointing out that aboriginal society was extremely warlike, isn't racist....its factual.

and so much more.

Turning your gaze elsewhere based on race so as to avoid offending said race is racist.

But poor ol' Paul won't understand that.

Actually Paul, I think it has taken me a while but I think that your
attitude is in fact racist.
It is always you who brings up racism as you have become the prominent racist.

Dear Paul,

The real beauty of this country lies not in trees, seas,
or cassowaries, but in the greatest resource that any
country can have: its people. For is not the story of
Australia the story of the Australian people?

One hopes so. The Australian people define Australia,
create it, represent it and make flesh the aspirations
our young, ambitious nation has had. Without people,
Australia would not be Australia. Every inhabitant adds
something to Australia, makes it more Australian than
it would otherwise be.

Ben Pobjie's book "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie" shows us
that great Australians over the course of history come
from a variety of fields and capacities. They've become
titans of business, legends of sport, giants of science,
colossi of philanthropy, and pigmies of politics.

Australians have led the world in myriad ways, and
weathering inspiring youth, saving lives, they have
done it in a peculiarly Australian way, with a swagger
and style that marks a person out as an inhabitant of
the scientifically determined greatest country on earth.

What we need to do - is acknowledge our history - our
full history and drink in the cool, refreshing inspiration
the former Australians devoted their lives to. Instead of
being selective in what our children are being taught at
school - they need to learn and be taught everything our
country's history entails.

Only then will we really be entitled to proclaim the
joyous cry: Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!

The fact is we can laud people like Yvonne ans Ashley for representing Australia in great sports achievements this is not racist. The fact is they are games we all play and they identify with life as we recognise. They are not competing in boomerang throwing or spearing wild animals. Though if they were doing it as a sport on the World stage we probably would praise their skills. It is not skin colour we are identifying it is the discipline of skills. They achieve theseskills by adopting accepting Western disciplines.

Aboriginals lived in a country of mud and glazing sand, of iron and coal of native fruits and grains but in 60,000 years they never developed any one of them as the evolution of Northern Hemisphere Nations; as they are now under Western agricultural advice contributing to the diet. It is aboriginals that are adopting Western culture to their lives - not the reverse.

They need to adopt the 60,000 years development of Western Nations, we do not need to now adopt a primitive culture and become aboriginals.

Dear Paul,

I've received an email from the Indigenous Law Centre.
(I've donated to them in the past) ) telling me that the
government has released (on Friday 17/12/2021) its
final report on the Indigenous Voice Co-Design process.

The Final Report runs to 272 pages and contains 7
recommendations - 4,5 and 8, are worth a read.

Anyway, here it is:

http://voice.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-12/indigenous-voice-co-design-process-final-report_0.pdf

Dear Josephus,

This is for you:

http://theconversation.com/aboriginal-people-how-to-misunderstand-their-science-23835

Foxy,
Interesting link and it well illustrates what a few years, compared to 60,000 years can achieve.
In 1788 they couldn’t write as they had no writing.
You are to be congratulated for illustrating so well how Indigennous people have advanced since Governor Philip set up the first British colony.

The last 20,000 years went rather quick. When I first arrived here Aboriginals of Australia had been here for 40,000 years.

Paul, "Seeing the ads, and reading the garbage put up by the forum haters, one can see why there is still a way to go before true equality is achieved in this country".

For once Paul is right about something. There will have to be a big reduction in the special handouts given to remote Aboriginal communities & individuals, before anything like equality can be achieved on this country.

Is Mise,

Don't you wonder how many of the British criminals
who settled Australia could write?

Hasbeen,

Don't you wonder how much of what you call "handouts"
actually reach where they're needed and who profits
the vast majority of the funds? After all it's still
a "White Man's Law" in this country. The Uluru Statement
was initially rejected.

Foxy,
No I don’t wonder at all about how many of the convicts could read and write, I simply look up the relevant records.
Don’t belittle the Aboriginal people they are very quick learners and early learnt the benefits of firearms over the traditional weapons.
They were also quick to adapt to new materials; there is, in the museum at Sydney Uni an exquisitely made spear head from a green glass bottle
Just as they were quick to adapt broken glass into circumcision knives, unfortunately for the initiates they have not adopted anaesthetics to go with the cutting.

Is Mise,

And who recorded the "relevant records?"

Interesting.

Foxy,
People who could read and write, obviously.

Is Mise,

You were the one to bring up the fact that Aboriginal
people could not write.

For your information - oral history is an integral part
of Indigenous culture and beliefs as its how creative
and culture stories such as those of The Dreaming,
history, accounts, traditional ecological knowledge and
language are passed on from generation to generation and
have been for thousands of years.

A great big raspberry to you!

Is Mise,

The majority of British criminals could not read or
write.

Foxy,
The majority of Australian Aboriginals could not read or write in 1788, in fact 100% of them.
They couldn’t do so for 60,000 years but the British brought with them the great gift of writing and reading…
Since those days our Indigenous brothers and sisters have benefited mightily, to the extent that thousands of them now live a European lifestyle and hav little or nothing to do with Aboriginal culture.
My own relations of Aboriginal descent identify as European as that is their dominant ancestral origin; having, for the most part, only one Aboriginal ancestor.

Foxy,
The link you posted was about astronomy, if you live under the stars, you will work out some patterns of behaviour of your environment after 60,000 years. We are not claiming they were unintelligent, but they did not develop any tools more than sharpened stones or sticks. They just learned where to find food in the environment and build funnell stone fish traps. Existence was about food and dreamtime.

Where is the Australian Stonehenge> When was it built? The Great Pyramid was built 5,000 years ago with precise astrological dimensions recording the sun movements and the circumference of the Earth, some cut blocks of stone have been raised over 300 feet and weigh 1,200 tones. Long before Galiao. We have developed beyond the history and knowledge of Egypt

Is this promotion wanting us to return to hunter gathering so that it does not destroy their land? This land in their view belongs to aboriginal tribes sanctioned by Local Councils- other cultures are invasers and have stolen their land.

Their message is vague and confusing! We want them to adopt our culture and become equal to us; not we become equal to their culture.

The claim is aboriginals had a sophisticated numerical system - this must be challenge as I had a young man from West Papua with degrees after his name from Indonesian university live with me for several months. His tribe only had words in their native language for one, two three and many. He developed a mathmatical language for his tribe and language to express all mathmatical complexities in a commercial World. He developed this while living and studying in Australia. At least his tribe farmed yams and pigs in the highlands and built housing shelters. His Grandfather was a cannabal - he could equally live off the environment catching elles and birds for food, his favourite was dog which they also raised.

It's important to understand the past to help us understand
the present. There are many Australian Indigeous people
still alive today who were:

1) Forcibly removed from their parents under government
policy.

2) Separated from their children.

3) Barred from towns after 6.00 pm.

4) Not allowed to be in public areas without permission.

5) Banned from schools and hospitals.

6) Forced to work in the homes or on properties of
non-Indigenous people and have their earnings permanently
withheld by the government.

And the list goes on.

Had it not been for oral traditions and people had stopped
sharing their stories and cultures - it all would have
been lost.

We need to stress the need to respect cultural diversity
and encourage people to understand each community is
distinct and unique. And there are valid reasons for
the current behaviour of many of our Indigenous people.

maze your total negativity towards aboriginal people in your pointing out post shows you to be a racists.

Actually Bazz it took me no time at all to realise you are a racists, just reading your bile was enough.

Thanks for the link Foxy, if Morrison has his way the Aboriginal voice to parliament will be more like a murmur than a voice.

Hi Foxy,

Totally off the subject, but who cares, great fund raising idea. Ask local businesses etc to create a Xmas tree display each, and display them all in the local hall. Have nightly viewings and folks buy a ticket to see the display. All the basic tree's are simmilar but it's how each one is decorated with lights etc that determines the winner who gets a very nice Xmas hamper. The hall is all decked out, Te said it looked fantastic, lots of trees etc, she did a couple of nights on duty from 6 to 9, and a good roll up of families with the kids. Going to raise several thousand in 10 nights.

Ps all have put in great efforts to make their tree stand out, some very innovative ideas to be had.

Dear Paul,

«This thread is not about "luvvies wanting Australia to adopt bits and pieces of aboriginal culture." as a racists like mhaze would say. No its about inclusion, appreciation and acceptance, something a bigoted racist cannot do. Seeing the ads, and reading the garbage put up by the forum haters, one can see why there is still a way to go before true equality is achieved in this country»

I apologize:
When I read the initial post by Josephus, I believed that he was inspired by something he saw on television to consider adopting the aboriginal culture. It was because I did not read his post all through to the end (due to an eye infection that made it hard for me to read, but that should not be an excuse).

I believed this thread to be a genuine discussion whether or not we ought to adopt the aboriginal culture (in full or in part). Had I understood that this was just part of some tired and endless sociopolitical conflict, which is of no interest to me, then I would never have commented on this thread.

Yuyutsu,
The sooner the Australian indigenous disassociate themselves from the likes of Paul1405 & yourself, the sooner they'll get to where they should already be !

AND have the affairs of the "concrete jungle bunnies" as you like to call people with aboriginal blood, run by a racists like YOU!

Paul whined "maze your total negativity towards aboriginal people in your pointing out post shows you to be a racists."

So pointing out that your swooning over all things aboriginal is based on fantasy is racist?

Poor ol' Paul can't actually find anything I've said that's racist but demands that we all stop looking at their society with an ear to the truth.

And as usual poor ol' Paul has nothing to support his evidence-free claims and so reverts to ad hominins.

Reading people's posts on this forum - there seems to be a
misunderstanding of what some think Indigenous people
want. Perhaps a bit more research would help before
posting? Just a thought.

maze, I can admit aboriginal people do plenty wrong, like all societies, that's understandable. What you do is stereotype all as doing the wrong thing, you can't see anything positive. That makes you a racists.

There are those who say it's a cultural thing for aboriginal men to bash women. There are those that do that, too many in fact, but its not culture its bad behavior. When its said the same thing happens too often in white society, according to some its not cultural at all but bad behavior. You want aboriginals in a bad light, so its cultural, but to put white people in a good light, its bad behavior.

Dear Paul,

Our education curriculum is so important. Textbooks
record the dominant understanding of our nation. In
colonial nations such as Australia foundation narratives
are fashioned to establish the legitimacy of the nation.

In Australia it seems as if this fashioning requires our
Indigenous peoples to be portrayed as primitive and
savage. Most people who've been educated in Australia
hold racial stereotypes of Indigenous society. We've imbibed
these stereotypes as part of our education. Resistance and
refusal to ask anything different supports these stereotypes
and leads to discriminatory attitudes which contribute
to and impact Indigenous Australians.

Shattering these stereotypes is crucial to improving the lives
of Indigenous Australians. Our textbooks need to do better.

"In 2014–15, Indigenous women were 32 times as likely to be hospitalised due to family violence as non-Indigenous women."

Yep, just bad behaviour. </sarc>

But aboriginal women can be sacrificed in the name of protecting the fantasies about aboriginal culture.

What an absurd remark.

As if domestic violence only exists in
Indigenous societies.

As an exercise in getting the facts of aboriginal culture watching the writings and presentation on NITV that depict australian aboriginal thougt and claims and their social exclusitivity from our society.

This helps in understanding if they are part of a society in which they are equal or seperate for which they have a prefernce to be different. Do they want to become part of Australia and blend into or a culture they want to isolate from?

Josephus,

Indigenous people of Australia want self-determination
within the existing nation. They want to have a say
and be able to advise on laws that specifically affect
them. They want to be acknowledged constitutionally
as being the first people of the Australian continent.
They never ceded their sovereignty. They want truth
telling of history. All reasonable requests.

THE TRUTH ABOUT ABORIGINAL CULTURE>
The treatment which women experience must be taken into account in considering the causes which lead to the extinction of the native tribes. Amongst them the woman is an absolute slave. She is treated with the greatest cruelty and indignity, has to do all laborious work, and to carry all the burthens [sic]. For the slightest offence or dereliction of duty, she is beaten with a waddyu or yam stick and not infrequently speared. The records of the Supreme Court in Adelaide furnish numberless instances of blacks being tried for murdering lubras. The woman’s life is of no account if her husband chooses to destroy it, and no one ever attempts to protect or take her part under any circumstances. In times of scarcity of food, she is the last to be fed, and the last considered in any way. That many die in consequence cannot be a matter of wonder…” — George Taplin, The Native Tribes of South Australia, 1878

“After marriage, the women are compelled to do all the hard work of erecting habitations, collecting fuel and water, carrying burdens, procuring roots and delicacies of various kinds, making baskets for cooking roots and other purposes, preparing food, and attending to the children. The only work men do, in times of peace, is to hunt for opossums and large animals of various kinds, and to make rugs and weapons.” – James Dawson, Australian Aborigines: The Language and Customs of Several Tribes of Aborigines in the Western District of Victoria, 1881.

“Cont

A great man, or ‘turrwan’, might have two or three or even four wives … They were useful in carrying burdens from one place to another. A woman, because she was a woman, always carried the heaviest load. A man took his tomahawk, his spear, and waddy, and that sort of thing; a woman humped along with the weighty kangaroo and ’possum skin coverings, the dillies with eatables, and sometimes also a heavy little piece of goods in the form of a child. At times, too, she would carry tea-tree bark on her back for the humpies [makeshift tents], while ever and anon as they travelled along the men enjoyed themselves hunting and looking for ‘sugar bags’ (native bees nests), etc.” — Tom Petrie’s Reminiscences of Early Queensland, 1904
Cont

“In 1849 I saw a battle where about 500 of the Narrinyeri met some 800 of the Wakanuwan, and it was very evident that if the conflict had not been stopped by the colonial authorities the Narrinyeri would have been signally defeated by their opponents. They bore a special enmity to [their opponents] because these latter had a propensity for stealing fat people and eating them. If a man had a fat wife, he was always particularly careful not to leave her unprotected, lest she might be seized by prowling cannibals.” — George Taplin, The Narrinyeri: An Account of the Tribes of South Australian Aborigines.

“The natives told me that some twenty years before I came to Port Macleay they first saw white men on horseback, and thought that the horses were their visitors’ mothers, because they carry them on their back! I have also heard that another tribe regarded the first pack-bullocks they saw as whitefellows’ wives, because they carried the luggage!” — Taplin, ibid., p. 68, footnote.

“If a man has several girls at his disposal he speedily obtains several wives who, however, very seldom agree well with each other, but are continually quarrelling, each endeavouring to be the favourite. The man, regarding them as mere slaves than in any other light, employs them in every possible way to his own advantage. They are obliged to get shellfish, roots, and eatable plants. If one [man] from another tribe should arrive having anything he desires to purchase, he perhaps makes a bargain to pay by letting him have one of his wives for a longer or shorter period.” — H.E.A. Meyer, Manners and Customs of the Aborigines of the Encounter Bay Tribe, South Australia, in Taplin, ibid., p. 191.)

"What an absurd remark."

The remark was from a government report based on actual hospital statistics. But, Foxy, if you don't want it to be true, then it isn't.

Vincent Lingiari was born in 1919, a member of the
Gurindji people of the Victoria River region of the
Northern Territory. Vincent's parents worked on the
Wave Hill cattle station, 600km south of Darwin, and
even further away from any actual city. It was a starkly
remote place in the middle of some of the world's most
inforgiving country, seemingly designed less to raise
cattle than to punish them for their sins.

At the time of Lingiari's birth, Wave Hill was owned by
William Vestey, the employer of Lingiari's parents, and
and later the boss of Vincent himself, when the boy was
put to work at the age of 12 at the Wave Hill stock
camps. Today it might seem appalling that a 12 year old
could be forced to work mustering cattle, but these
were different times, when child labour was a cherished
part of everyday life. As was institutionalised racism
and the belief that Aboriginal people were subhuman.

Forcing Aboriginal people to work for them was a
longstanding tradition for the Vesteys and the Wave Hill
station.

Like many Aboriginal nations, the Gurindji had found their
traditional way of life somewhat squeezed by white settlers.
The white settlers, of course, were only following their
own traditional way of life, that is, theft and genocide,
so it was a real clash of cultures.

The waterholes that Aboriginal tribes had depended on had
been fenced off by pastoralists or polluted by their cattle,
which also destroyed desert plants that were an important
resource for original inhabitants. Meanwhile white hunters shot
the the Aboriginal hunting dogs, and the kangaroos...

cont'd ...

Foxy,
I’d like to see you stop a 12 year old who has been raised on a cattle station from wanting to join the men in the mustering; your knowledge of bush life is somewhat wanting..
Also at twelve he is already a man or about to become one so to call his work ‘child labour’ is also shewing lack of knowledge of the subject.

The good ole boys are at it again.

mhaze, how about you look at whites who best fit the same broad socio-economic grouping as most disadvantaged aboriginal people fall into, a much higher proportion than in white society, and you will find they also have a very high rate of family violence. For you its black skin, and nothing else, ever thought family violence might be due to environmental factors more so that "culture".

PBJ, you accept the lying colonial propaganda that was used to justify mass genocide against aboriginal people. Nothing to say about the European cultural practice of cutting the genitals of aboriginal men just to watch them run around in agony until they died. Nothing to say about aboriginal children heads being bashed off with polo mallets in the name of sport.

call people with aboriginal blood
Paul1405,
What is Aboriginal blood ? Concrete jungle bunnies are Activist indoctrinated people milling among high rise flats, no matter what their complexion although most of the really light coloured ones try to call themselves Aboriginal.
They haven't been around 60,000 years !

cont'd ...

Meanwhile white hunters shot the Aboriginal hunting
dogs and the kangaroos that were a staple food for
the locals - kangaroos were a threat to the white
invaders because they competed with cattle for
grass and water, and were also symbolic of
natural grace and beauty, two things that the British
Empire had vowed to wipe off the face of the earth.

With their traditional food sources running short, the
Aboriginal communities came up with the eminently practical
idea of grabing a bit of British beef for themselves.

This seemed only fair since it was the cattle that had
decimated their society, but the whites, operating on
the tried and tested imperial principle of -
"when in doubt, shoot everyone," did not take kindly to the
people whose land they had stolen trying to stay alive.

And so the Gurindji found themselves forced to move to
the cattle stations and work as stockmen and servants, for
meagre rations.

Besides the almost heroically unjust pay grades,
Gurindji employees at Wave Hill were living in corrugated
iron humpies with no lighting, plumbimg, furniture or floors -
literally no floors.

"We were treated just like dogs. We were lucky to get
paid the 50 quid a month we were due, and we lived in tin
humpies you had to crawl in and out on your knees.
There was no running water. The food was bad - just flour,
tea, sugar and bits of beef like the head or feet of a bullock.
The Vesteys mob were bad men. They didn't care about
blackfellas...

That Vesteys didn't care about blackfellas certainly seemed
to be the case, although Vesteys would probably defend
themselves by pointing out that not caring about blackfellas
was a constitutional requirement of the time - along with not
caring about Asians, women, etc ...

There's much more detail in Ben Pobjie's book -
"Aussie Aussie Aussie."

It's a book that any proud Australian seeking to learn more
about the national heroes that make our own lives seem so
insignificant. (smile).

Dear Josephus,

Up to your usual nastiness I see. Oh well.

And you are quoting Dawson to boot.

Well here is another of his quotes.

"In recording my admiration of the general character of the aborigines, no attempt is made to palliate what may appear to us to be objectionable customs common to savages in nearly every part of the globe ; but it may be truly said of them, that, with the exception of the low estimate they naturally place on life, their moral character and modesty—all things considered—compare favourably with those of the most highly cultivated communities of Europe. People seeing only the miserable remnants to be met with about the white man’s grog-shop may be inclined to doubt this; but if these doubters were to be brought into close communication with the aborigines away from the means of intoxication and were to listen to their guileless conversation, their humour and wit, and their expressions of honour and affection for one another, those who are disposed to look upon them as scarcely human would be compelled to admit that in general intelligence, common sense, integrity, and the absence of anything repulsive in their conduct, they are at least equal, if not superior, to the general run of white men."

How does that fit your narrative?

I thought that we were discussing the aboriginal culture, not the aboriginal people - I seem to be mistaken so bye, everyone.

run by a racists..
Paul1405,
People such as yourself wouldn't even exist if weren't for those 'racists' as you like to call the folk that feed you !

Thanks Steele, well Josephus you claim not to be a racists yet at every opportunity your quote material that denigrates aboriginal people. A claimed Christian, but you have no Christian values at all.

Indy, you might be an Old Fart, but even I don't believe you're 60,000 years old. Back with the 'concrete jungle bunny' stuff. Now what are they; "Activist indoctrinated people milling among high rise flats, no matter what their complexion although most of the really light coloured ones try to call themselves Aboriginal. They haven't been around 60,000 years !". Hummmm, interesting concept, what is the significance of the high rise flats? Is that for jumping off when they don't get their way. So your idea of an aboriginal is they have to look like Truganini, and be 60,000 years old.

What you should do is go to Bunnings and pick up the Dulux colour chart. Go down to those high rise flats and do some colour comparisons on those Activist milling around; "Fella you not 'Midnight' you a lighter shade of 'Mission Brown'.. on ya way, you, you, ACTIVIST!"

SR and Paul If you read my comments, you will see I have never called aboriginals unintelligent. I have never condoned criminal behaviour by settlers. These acts are criminals not cultural in our society.

Christmas 1960 a mate and I shot a couple of kangaroos for the crowd gathered at 9 mile bore out of Alice that had come in from the Stations and they were short on food on Christmas day. We lived on an aboriginal settlement just north of Alice for 12 weeks during college break while building a childrens home and school for the local children to prevent them being taken from parents.

Dear Josephus,

You avoided the question and dived for a personal antidote instead.

I will ask it again, how does Dawson's account fit with the narrative you have repeatedly tried to run on this forum?

Keeping in mind the White culture at the time of settlement was utterly brutal. There are numerous accounts of Aborigines being absolutely horrified about the treatment of convicts for instance. This was all from a fully Christian nation Britain.

SR, What part of Dawsons reports are not how aboriginals lived before settlement?

See watkyn Tench for probably the first writing on Aboriginal women being beaten.

Poor ol' Paul wrote:" how about you look at whites who best fit the same broad socio-economic grouping as most disadvantaged aboriginal people fall into, a much higher proportion than in white society, and you will find they also have a very high rate of family violence."

Well I was going to ask for evidence of that claim. You know, evidence that if you look at just poor whites and compare them with poor aboriginals you'll find roughly equal numbers of domestic violence. Evidence that if you look at just urban whites and compare them with urban aboriginals you'll find roughly equal numbers of domestic violence.

But then I realised two things....(1) no such evidence exists and Poor ol' Paul had just made it up to try to reconcile the real world with his fantasies and (2) Poor ol' Paul doesn't know what the word 'evidence' means.

Poor ol' Paul wrote: "ever thought family violence might be due to environmental factors more so that "culture"."

Well yes it did. And then I looked at the evidence and realised that wasn't the case. I looked at the evidence from archaeologists who have found that over 30% of aboriginal female bones from all ancient periods show signs of head and limb injuries - a much higher percentage than male bones. And then I looked at evidence from early settlers who witnessed the massive misogyny against aboriginal women that was just part of their culture. And then I looked at evidence that aboriginal women were treated as mere property that could be gifted or sold. (and stories of gifted women refusing to return to their aboriginal owners but wanting to remain with their white 'husbands'). And then I looked at the actual statistics.

And from ALL the evidence (rather than the fantasies) I determined that it was cultural going back millennia.

And I wonder why some people can find oral history going back thousands of years reliable but can’t believe video footage a couple of years old?

That's an interesting question. Should Australians adopt a 60000 year oll culture? that means we would have to remove every modern thing from the Country. That also means that we would be back to as the Aboriginals were before the arrival of Whitie.

No clothes. (remember there were no clothes then) No houses, only temporary dwellings for the night. (Gunyas). No Cars. (we get to walk everywhere), No rifles (Pointy sticks & Throwie sticks) to catch food. No steel knives to cut up your kill. (just chuck it on the fire, guts & all.) No Boats Fishing rods or reels or lines. (Fish traps made of stone & sticks) No Phones. (Bull Roarers & yelling) No Matches or Cigarette lighters. (Twirlie sticks & blow gently) No shoes. (bare feet) No Welfare or Health care. (Well, there would be nothing to spend it on anyway.

But Wait, there’s more. We would get to adopt Aboriginal Law. If you screw up badly you get speared in the thigh. (throw some ashes on that for medication) If you really screw up then you get tossed out of the Tribe & if you try to come back you get killed. You get to do lots of Witchcraft.

Interesting debate. I look forward to you answer.

Jayb,

Nobody is asking us to adopt Indigenous culture and
get rid of our own. What is merely being asked is
the recognition of our First People, and the truth
telling of our full history. A plea for this is not
a big ask. It's a request not a demand. We are not
under any threat.

So far we've done that, twice, John Howard & Kevin Rudd. But it never seems to be enough for Redfern Aboriginals. Ay.

Jayb,

No, nothing has been done as was requested in
their Uluru Statement from the Heart.
Not yet.

cont'd ...

The Uluru Statement is a document Aboriginal people
from all over Australia agreed on. In it they express
that they are a sovereign people and what they want
all Australians to do is recognise and support this
sovereignty.

Aiden: Did they really say "unchanged"? Or did you add that assumption?
Culture is dynamic; it constantly changes!

Not Aboriginal Culture. That's why even the Chinese weren't interested in colonising Australia. Even though they Mapped it just south of the Kimberly's, around the Palmer River in Nth. Queensland & from the mouth of the mouth Murry to Lake Eyre, SA, to on to just north of Hughenden in Nth, Qld.

The first wave of invaders arrived somewhere between 80 to 60000 years ago from Sunda via India & the Indonesian archipelago & brought with them their culture of that time. The next wave was between 40 & 2000 years a from Taiwan, Vietnam, The Philippians & New Guinea bringing very little that was new, (Dingo's) Then the Last wave of invaders came via Sarawak Various Islands in that area & New Guinea to Arnamland & North Queensland. About 15 to 10000 years ago. The only new culture they brought with them was the polishing of the tips of Axe heads.

In some 80000 years very little change was made in Aboriginal Culture. Some, apart from the wearing of White mans Clothes, haven't changed.

It is true some things haven't changed:

http://bbc.com/news/world-australia-53436225

Dear Josephus,

Again you are dodging the question. It appears you are unable to address anything positive in reference to Australian Aboriginals. What do you think that would be?

That kind of deep aversion generally comes from a pretty dark place called racism. Why shouldn't we consider that a distinct possibility with you?

Would you like to try once more, what do you think of Dawson's comment and how does it fit with the narrative you have presented?

Foxy, Paul is making the statement that poor invaders are equally violent toward their wives as with poor aboriginals, so you two need to confer on what is fact. Violence toward women in our society is criminal.

If you worked in child welfare you would be removing children from the dirt camps of aboriginals and giving them a chance of a better life. In my earlier life I was involved for 12 weeks building a childrens home and school in an aboriginal tin settlement, so children could still be near their parents,but given an opportunity of a better life.

That they want to live like their ancestors because it does not destroy the environment. Part of the push is based on Climate Change Histeria because they did not destroy the land. I am having this push show up on my Facebook stream.

Josephus,

I have actually worked for the Department of Human
Services here in Melbourne and the Child Protection
Unit was next door to my office

SR, What is not historical factual in the quote I gave? Give the evidence.

Foxy, did you have to make decisions to remove children from their parents because of risk?

Dear Josephus,

Now trying to be vague. My goodness this is difficult for you isn't it. Lol.

Here is the quote again from the same book:

"In recording my admiration of the general character of the aborigines, no attempt is made to palliate what may appear to us to be objectionable customs common to savages in nearly every part of the globe ; but it may be truly said of them, that, with the exception of the low estimate they naturally place on life, their moral character and modesty—all things considered—compare favourably with those of the most highly cultivated communities of Europe. People seeing only the miserable remnants to be met with about the white man’s grog-shop may be inclined to doubt this; but if these doubters were to be brought into close communication with the aborigines away from the means of intoxication and were to listen to their guileless conversation, their humour and wit, and their expressions of honour and affection for one another, those who are disposed to look upon them as scarcely human would be compelled to admit that in general intelligence, common sense, integrity, and the absence of anything repulsive in their conduct, they are at least equal, if not superior, to the general run of white men."

Again how does this fit into the narrative you are trying to portray here? Do you accept what he has written or not?

First People, I wonder who the first people were?&#128515;

Yutsie: There is much merit in your suggestion, but I rather take the best from both cultures and avoid the worsts.

Please explain. Exactly what aspects of Aboriginal Culture would you like to adopt?

Foxy: Nobody is asking us to adopt Indigenous culture and get rid of our own.

Josephus: SBS and NITV is promoting the idea we should adopt aboriginal culture as our primary culture in Australia because it has survived foe 60,000 years unchanged.

Therefore SBS & NITV is. I guess at the request of Aboriginal People of Australia through "The Uluru Statement.”

Foxy: What is merely being asked is the recognition of our First People.

As I said before we’ve done that twice before &, apparently, it wasn’t good enough.

Foxy: and the truth telling of our full history.

Well Pascoe did that, & we all know how that went. After the initial “Woo Hoo” it was even rejected by Aboriginal people, except those that live by the “Redfern Code of Practice.”

Foxy: No, nothing has been done as was requested in their Uluru Statement from the Heart.

First, they asked for, Recognition They got it. Then they wanted us to say, Sorry. They got that. Now it’s a list of Requests. Fine they’ll get it. Next it will be something else, then something else then, ad infinitum. Where does it end. They are already given $6 billion a year, which siphoned off by the CEO of the various Aboriginal Organizations.

Anyway, this is a side track. The Question, or Statement was for White Australians to adopt a 60000 year old culture, Well, I’ve already supplied a detail of what that encompasses & you rejected it & went off on a tangent.

your idea of an aboriginal is they have to look like Truganini,
Paul1405,
So, what is your idea of an Aboriginal then ? Come to think of it, I'm an Aboriginal also, a caucasian one that is. So, I ask you this, what is your idea of an Australian Aboriginal then ?
Black, brown, brindle more white than caucasians, what ?
ABC/SBS shows glaringly whiter than my lilly-white butt ever was identifying as 'indigenous'. Is that in your opinion fair to real, proud Aborigines ? I don't think so when I listen to real Indigenous commenting on these pearly white fakes ! Are you one of them ? Judging by your lack of integrity I assume you are.

SR, who would you consider a savage by their culture? One who kills and eats human flesh - a cannibal? Because every tribe that ate human flesh was considered a savage if they were living in primitive situations.

The young man from West Papua who lived with me his grandfather a tribal head was a canibal toll he accepted Christ as his saviour, and his family had a cultural change. The young man I speak of had two degrees after his name, intellect does not define a person as a savage. However, primitive culture defines if a person is a savage. I met some aboriginal elders in the NT whose bush wisdom was highly skilled.

Excerpts from Howards & Rudds Speeches in Parliament.

Howard. I Reflect on past mistreatment & the Stolen Generation.
Because the time has come, well and truly come, for all peoples of our great country, for all citizens of our great commonwealth, for all Australians - those who are indigenous and those who are not - to come together to reconcile and together build a new future for our nation.
The nation is demanding of its political leadership to take us forward.

Decency, human decency, universal human decency, demands that the nation now step forward to right an historical wrong. That is what we are doing in this place today.

It is time to reconcile. It is time to recognise the injustices of the past. It is time to say sorry. It is time to move forward together.
To the stolen generations, I say the following: as Prime Minister of Australia, I am sorry.

On behalf of the parliament of Australia, I am sorry.

I offer you this apology without qualification.

We apologise for the hurt, the pain and suffering that we, the parliament, have caused you by the laws that previous parliaments have enacted.

We apologise for the indignity, the degradation and the humiliation these laws embodied.

Rudd: on their past mistreatment.

Prime Minister (Hon Kevin Rudd MP): "Mr Speaker, I move:
That today we honour the Indigenous peoples of this land, the oldest continuing cultures in human history.

We reflect on their past mistreatment.
We reflect in particular on the mistreatment of those who were Stolen Generations - this blemished chapter in our nation's history.
The time has now come for the nation to turn a new page in Australia's history by righting the wrongs of the past and so moving forward with confidence to the future.

We apologise for the laws and policies of successive Parliaments and governments that have inflicted profound grief, suffering and loss on these our fellow Australian

We the Parliament of Australia respectfully request that this apology be received in the spirit in which it is offered as part of the healing of the nation.
For the future we take heart; resolving that this new page in the history of our great continent can now be written.
Last year I made a commitment to the Australian people that if we formed the next government of the Commonwealth, we would in parliament say sorry to the stolen generations.

Today I honour that commitment.

Uluru Statement from the Heart.

Our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander tribes were the first sovereign Nations of the Australian continent and its adjacent islands, and possessed it under our own laws and customs.
With substantive constitutional change and structural reform, we believe this ancient sovereignty can shine through as a fuller expression of Australia’s nationhood.

We seek a Makarrata Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and First Nations and truth-telling about our history.

One has to remember that these very same people refused to recognise Torres Straight Islanders as part of Aboriginal Australia until Marbo happened, then, they suddenly became Long lost brothers.

As far as I can see what they are asking for has already happened, twice. How many more times has White Australia got to grovel to the Redfern Mob.

Indy: your idea of an aboriginal is they have to look like Truganini,

No, Truganini belongs to the Original inhabitants going back 80 to 60000 years. She was not of the same Race as the Later
Aboriginals. See The DNA difference Bottom corner of WA as well.

Josephus,

I note that SR keeps demanding that you respond to a quote he has which he thinks exonerates all aboriginals for all time, negating all other information that we have about the true nature of the pre-1788 stone age peoples.

You'll note that SR doesn't provide a URL for the quote he has and I can tell you from experience that when SR doesn't provide a link its because he's hiding something that doesn't suit his claims. Yes, I know....not the least ethical but very SR.

Here's the link. Read it and you'll see how SR has selectively quoted.....

http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2011/12/purposive-killing-infanticide-and.html

I find it more than a little amusing that we have all these good folk who preen themselves as being good humanitarians as regards the poor downtrodden natives, yet, when we point out the misery of aboriginal women perpetrated at the hands of the aboriginal men, they ignore the misery and hurry to defend and excuse the men.

It seems #metoo doesn't matter when it comes to the suffering of aboriginal women. They defend the rights of the males to practice their 60000 yr old culture on the bodies of the females.

That, apparently, is being anti-racist

mhaze, Europeans have carried out infanticide and euthanasia since the year dot. Unwanted babies were left at the church steps, or abandoned in the street. Old people left to starve to death. Abortions the modern way to deal with what's unwanted. Èuthanasia now being legalized has been common practice in hospitals for years. What culture hasn't practiced these things in one form or another. The Romans and Greeks garrotted the unwanted as did the Egyptians. Got anything new?

What culture hasn't practiced these things in one form or another.
Paul1405,
Yes, even the Aborigines had their way to leave the old & sick behind to die & early explores reported seeing unwanted babies being roasted just like it it happened in Russia during the revolution.

Paul is conceeding to some degree that primitive society destroys its weak and aged, no matter its intellect. That is why the Christian culture fights against this barbaric practise.

Mhaze the link you gave accurately expresses how I see the unchanged 60,000-year of aboriginal culture. I can see where those that support infantercide and euthenasia can align with ancient cultures using modern practises. Where big pharmacy companies are using healthy foetus to develop vaccines - so in a sense we are cannibalising human tissue to make us stronger against death. So, from the view of Christ's teachings are we just as primitive?

Aboriginal babies were killed if their mothers had too much to carry - women carried everything on walkabout - or if times were lean. Some of the babies would be eaten. In more recent times, babies and children were handed over to authorities if they weren't wanted, or couldn't be looked after. Then, some bright spark decided that they had been "stolen".

Paul,

You'll note that I didn't comment on the infanticide or euthanasia mentioned in the link. I agree this was standard operation procedure for all primitive peoples.

I was simply pointing out the ethics of SR in trying to hide said issues while attacking Josephus.

While infanticide or euthanasia were practiced by most (maybe all) primitive peoples, the massive misogyny and abuse perpetrated against aboriginal women was, if not unique, certainly unusual. Many primitive cultures treated their women as equals and revered. (http://archaeofeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Venus2.jpeg)

That misogyny was carried by this 'culture' into the modern world and is enabled by people who hurry to defend and excuse it. (no names mind you but I'm sure even you can work out to whom I refer)

During the Irish famine thousands of unwanted babies were abandoned to freeze to death. Modern god fearing Christian society.

Paul
Reference, please.

Dear Paul,

Talking about Ireland's abandoned babies?

Here's more on that:

http://irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/ireland-s-abandoned-babies-stories-of-unimaginable-fear-1.4134033

Very sad.

The babies in Ireland exposed to frigid winter, was this a regular cultural practise or the result of a famine?

There's a photo of a couple cooking children during the Russian revolution !
I wonder whom the Socialists blame for that dreadful time ?

Issy, I gave you a reference when you went for the job in the Pickle Factory. Not my fault if you don't know your pickles from ya onions.

On Irish babies, any good history book covering the Irish famine will tell you. I read one some years back.

PBJ, they ate human flesh in Eastern Europe towards the end of WWII. You guys have to dine out more. There are claims that some Japanese soldiers ate human flesh when starving, I don't know if that was true or not.

Yes we are all very sad at what happen 150 yrs ago in Ireland. But what's happen right now to aboriginal women...not so much. Suffering domestic violence hospitalisation at 35 times the rate of non-aboriginal women must be ignored in the interests of not condemning the men or the misogynist culture.

This, apparently, is being anti-racist! Go figure.

Off topic - re the Irish.

The majority of slaves in north America up until about 1700 were Irish, sold into servitude by the British. While there were also Negro slaves, they were much more valuable than Irish slaves and treated far better.

'From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade."

Can anyone point out anything of Aboriginal Culture from the past 60000 years that will benefit me today? list please.

list please.
Jayb,
Actually, any bit of Aborigine culture other than dancing would be interesting to know !

Jayb and individual,

Here's a list of just a few:

http://theculturetrip.com/pacific/australia/articles/11-ways-indigenous-australian-culture-still-influences-society/

Foxy,
You're well & truly sucked-in !

individual,

One day you're going to say that to the wrong person
who's really struggling and it's going to have
tragic results.

You suck and you need to fix that.

Inde: bit of Aborigine culture other than dancing would be interesting to know !

Go to any Night Club You can learn to dance there. Not much different from what we did as youngsters. Ay.

Foxy, in answer to your Link;

Language: Maybe, but only useful for the Uni inclined.

Sport: No Football, etc, is Modern Western. We could chuck Spears at one another. That's a 60000 year old Aboriginal Sport.

Music: No. The lot you see are using Modern Western type of Music. They only had Clickie Sticks & Blowie Sticks Not even Drums.

Theatre: No. What you see is Modern Western variety of Dance. Kicking up Dust & singing Ay yar, Ay yar naked & covered in white & red dirt & feathers wouldn't go over well at the opera House.

Art: No, Albert Namatjira used Western Techniques. D t Painting only goes back to 1926 to Rum Jungle where a Frenchman taught the Local Aboriginals the Matisse Technique. True Aboriginal Art is X-ray Art.

Literature: Is there anywhere I can read anything written by Aboriginal from 60000 to 1776. I'd like to read that.

Tourism: I don't think so. If you poked your head out of your own area without an invite you would most likely cop a spear.

Politics: Well, maybe, anything except Socialism & Communism could do better that the present lot of Politicians we have in Australia now-a-days.

TV: I'd like to see that. Wow! a 60000 year old Aboriginal
TV.

Education: Bush Education, That would be good for all the Lefties amongst us. Ay.

jayb,

There's so much to learn if only you had the
will, time, and an open mind.

You could learn about Aboriginal art, Indigenous
music of Australia, Aboriginal story telling
traditions, and so much more. However, I can see
that your mind is made up on these subjects so
there's no further point in discussing anything
further that seems to offend your conservative
ideology. Ay!

Foxy are you talking about their current development using modern products or their rock art and ancient bark art etc?

Foxy: You could learn about Aboriginal art, Indigenous music of Australia, Aboriginal story telling traditions, and so much more.

Aboriginal Music. Please elaborate? Apart from Clickity, Clickly , Click & Ooooh Waaaarrrrr Carrrrk, Carrrrk, Carrrrk, Woo..oop! Stomp, Stomp, Stomp, What other Genera are there?

As for Story telling. Yes, I agree, but there are some nice Children's books I've read. I've taken them all down to the Aboriginal Centre here where I live. They said, "These aren't our Stories." So I brought them back home with me. Yes, they were from the Cape.

Have you got anything better than that. So far you have failed to convince me that Customs & Traditions from 60000 years ago will be of any benefit to me.

Josephus,

That's the beauty of it all - Aboriginal art
techniques vary from artist to artist.
They are not one homogenous group. They are
made up of diverse cultural groups and
clans. It's a fascinating area of study.

Jayb,

Different tribes use various instruments in making
music which include boomerangs, clubs, hollow logs,
seed rattles, didgeridoos, decorated drums (made
from hollow logs and covered with reptile skin).
There's also good old fashioned singing, hand-clapping,
lap and thigh slapping, then there's the bellroarer,
and of course the gum leaf.

People have always made music no matter who they are.
But it's interesting to broaden one's outlook and
learn more about the ways in which they did it.
Especially about our Indigenous people. Of course
as I've stated previously - one has to be willing and
able to have an open mind to do just that. A closed
mind is just like a cloased book - just a piece of
wood. Ay!

One day you're going to say that to the wrong person
who's really struggling and it's going to have
tragic results.
Foxy,
So, that makes it wrong to speak from personal experience ? What you're saying is it's best to go along with the inventions of recent so as not to offend people who'd resort to violence when confronted by their own fables ?

Josephus goes on about the Christian culture. I mourn the results of Christianity.

I mourn the loss of history:

Much of human history is irreparably lost to us. In addition to the lost history by circumstances there is loss by design.

From "The History of Philosophy" by Grayling:

"There is a wall standing between us and the world of antiquity: the period of decline and fall of the Roman Empire and the rise to dominance of Christianity. Edward Gibbon connected the two phenomena, blaming the former on the latter. He is in significant part right. Remember that in 313 CE the Emperor Constantine gave Christianity legal status and protection by the Edict of Milan and not long afterwards, in 380 CE, the Emperor Theodosius I
decreed by the Edict of Thessalonica that Christianity was to be the
official religion of the Empire outlawing others. The change brought rapid results. From the fourth century of the Common Era (CE, formerly cited as AD) onwards a vast amount of the literature and material culture of antiquity was lost, a great deal of it purposefully destroyed. Christian zealots smashed statues and temples, defaced paintings and burned 'pagan' books, in an orgy of effacement of previous culture that lasted for several centuries. It has been estimated that as much as 90 per cent of the literature of antiquity perished in the onslaught. The Christians took the fallen stones of temples to build their churches, and over-wrote the manuscripts of the philosophers and poets with their scripture texts. It is hard to comprehend, still less to forgive, the immense loss of literature,
philosophy, history and general culture this represented. Moreover, at the time Christianity existed in a number of mutually hostile and competing versions, and the effort - eventually successful - to achieve a degree of consensus on a 'right' version required treating the others as heresies and aberrations requiring suppression, including violent suppression."

There are other examples of the deliberate destruction of the records of the past. Christianity is not the only culprit.

continued

continued

I mourn the loss of thinkers and scientists.

The murder of Hypatia, a woman who was the greatest mathematician, astronomer and mathematician of her time by a Christian mob in 415 AD, the burning at the stake of Servetus, a polymath who discovered pulmonary circulation and doubted the Trinity in 1553 AD, the burning at the stake of Giordano Bruno, a polymath who speculated that there are other solar systems and other worlds besides ours in 1600 and the murder of Vanini in 1619 are examples of the fate of such thinkers.
Vanini had a great mind. He saw the universe as governed by natural laws and humans and apes as having a common ancestry. His end was especially brutal.

In November 1618, he was arrested and, after a prolonged trial, was condemned to have his tongue cut out, to be strangled at the stake and to have his body burned to ashes. The sentence was executed on 9 February 1619.

I mourn the suffering and anguish of Jews.The Nazis didn’t invent Jew hatred. Centuries of Christian persecution preceded Nazism. Nazism exploited a feeling already endemic in the German psyche. The Holocaust was a culmination of Christian ideology.

I mourn the destruction of indigenous people and cultures by Christian imperialists and missionaries.

I mourn the loss of the ancient philosophies of stoicism, epicureanism and skepticism to be replaced by the superstition of Christianity.
I mourn the suffering and horrible deaths caused by the Inquisition.
A number of years ago I was in Lubeck, Germany during the Christmas season. In Lubeck are twin towers with a passageway from one to the other near the top. At the bottom of one of the towers is a torture museum exhibiting thumbscrews, rack, iron maiden and other instruments. As I gazed in horror and fascination the strains of the carol, “Stille Nacht, heilige Nacht” drifted in the window. Thinking of the Inquisition it seemed a very Christian moment to me.

continued

continued

I regard Christmas as a day of mourning. I am fascinated by Christianity and have read a bit of its history. One of the books I have read is a A History of Christianity by MacCulloch.

Diarmaid Ninian John MacCulloch ( born 31 October 1951) is an English historian and academic, specialising in ecclesiastical history and the history of Christianity. Since 1995, he has been a fellow of St Cross College, Oxford; he was formerly the senior tutor. Since 1997, he has been Professor of the History of the Church at the University of Oxford.

Though ordained a deacon in the Church of England, he declined ordination to the priesthood because of the church's attitude to homosexuality. In 2009 he encapsulated the evolution of his religious beliefs: "I was brought up in the presence of the Bible, and I remember with affection what it was like to hold a dogmatic position on the statements of Christian belief. I would now describe myself as a candid friend of Christianity." MacCulloch sits on the editorial board of the Journal of Ecclesiastical History.

2 quotes from his book:

I seek to give weight in these narratives to the tangled and often tragic story of the relations between Christianity and its mother-monotheism, Judaism, as well as with its mother-monotheistic younger cousin, Islam. For most of its existence, Christianity has been the most intolerant of world faiths, doing its best to eliminate all competitors, with Judaism a qualified exception, for which (thanks to some thoughts from Augustine of Hippo) it found space to serve its own theological and social purposes. P. 4

I still appreciate the seriousness which a religious mentality brings to the mystery and misery of human existence, and I appreciate the solemnity of religious liturgy as a way of confronting these problems. I live with the puzzle of wondering how something so apparently crazy can be so captivating to millions of other members of my species. P. 11

Merry Christmas is an oxymoron. May my fellow humans wake to the sheer evil of Christianity.

individual,

Don't worry about something beyond your comprehension.

Just sit back, relax, and be happy.

Foxy: hollow logs,seed rattles,decorated drums (made from hollow logs and covered with reptile skin).

Only on & around TI, Horn Island etc, not on the Mainland. Oh, we mustn't forget that TI's were not Aboriginals until "after" Marbo. They were shunned up until then. The Mainland Aboriginal Groups even partitioned the Government to consider them as part of the Culture of New Guinea.

Foxy: People have always made music no matter who they are.

Of course, but we are considering whether or not it would contribute to the Modern Westernised World. I think not.

Nice for displays etc, but that's all. One must also remember the "Smoking Ceremony" Which was invented by Erne Dingo in retaliation for the Kiwi Haka at a Rugby Game in Perth.

I have an open mind I also think, not just go along with the latest Red Fad, as you did defending Pascoe. Ay.

Foxy,
You're the one who hasn't a clue about anything outside the suburbs. As I said earlier, you're so sucked-in by the stories of people who have only one goal & that is to fill up the bandwagon at other's expense !
You're giving them the encouragement to do wrong !

Gentlemen,

I can't argue with your logic.
Bigotry is about being certain of
something you know nothing about.

Enjoy your evening.

Foxy: I can't argue with your logic. Bigotry is about being certain of
something you know nothing about. Enjoy your evening.

There is no Bigotry in truth. There is not one thing from 60000 years ago to 1776 that I could use in this Modern World.

It's the very reason the Chinese, Indonesians, Dutch or Portuguese wanted anything to do with Australia. Even the British only saw it as a dumping ground for Criminals because they lost the Americas.

Foxy,
there's a fundamental difference between culture & mere existence !

I see Davidf is on his usual rant, all his examples are of a National State Church - The Roman Catholic Church. It was they and their tributaries that tortured dissidents. The true followers of Christ had no part of the Roman Church and were equally tortured. They were an underground movement that influenced the reformation,

Dear Josephus,

You pick a scapegoat for your foul faith. You blame the Catholics. Nazi Germany was predominantly Protestant. Unfortunately, most Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, supported the Nazis. There were few Christians who opposed the Nazis. Among the few were Dietrich Bonheoffer, a Protestant, and Franz Jägerstätter, a Catholic. Colonial British North America had one Catholic colony, Maryland. Under Catholic rule there was freedom of religion. When Maryland became Protestant, Catholics were denied the vote. The evil in Christianity is endemic, neither Protestant nor Catholic. In my previous posts I mentioned some of the crimes of Christianity. Servetus was burned at the stake in Protestant Geneva. Luther, the founder of Protestant Lutheranism, made diatribes against the Jews which were printed verbatim in the Nazi newspapers. Jesus said in Matthew 7:3 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Listen to Jesus. Accept the responsibility for the crimes committed by your own religion. It has some good in it, but don’t excuse the evil by blaming Catholics.

Dear Josephus,

No Christian of any denomination is a true follower of Christ as he was not a Christian. He lived as a Jew and died as a Jew. If you want to be a true follower of Christ go to a rabbi and take steps to accept Christ's religion.

The Romans seen themselves as an advanced and cultured people, yet when the Barbarians conquered Rome they were shocked by many of the Roman practices taking place in the coliseum. Are we like the Romans?

If you want to be a good Christian also become a good Buddhist. Set yourself on the path of enlightenment. Buddha did not say there was no god(s), he just didn't see any relevance for god(s) in mans consciousness.

Are we like the Romans?
Paul1405,
No, a lot worse !

Enjoy your evening.
Foxy,
So, you're running out of links to cut & paste but that doesn't compensate for always falling for the BS of the various bandwagons !

individual,

I'll make it simpler for you:

When all is said and done, the diverse peoples of
the Indigenous nations and the deluded white
criminals of the motherland ended up forming a
single nation, this amazing land we call Australia,
which combines all the best of its brutally cruel
origins with the finest in modern complacency and
self-deception.

The lessons that our mighty figures of history have
to teach us are massive and enduring. Should we
wish to learn how to better serve our nation, how
to leave a legacy worthy of the term, there is no
difficulty: all we need do is look to the Australians
contained in our history books, and drink in the
cool, refreshing inspiration they devoted their lives
to pouring out for us.

Have fun learning about these people - Lets give them all
the joyous cry of "Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!"

There you go!

We don't need to argue - we simply need to read.
Onya!

David,
Of course Chtist was not a Christian because then He would have had to be one of his own followers.

The only way we can get anything of what the 'woke' think is valuable out of aboriginal 'culture' is if we reject and neglect all the facts about aboriginal 'culture' and deceive ourselves into believing all the Disney-fied fantasies about that woe begotten peoples. And we can see that quite a few in this group have travelled a long way down that path already.

We can swoon over aboriginal 'art' and convince ourselves it was important and ground-breaking. But that requires that we try not to notice that it was just like all the other art that backward peoples all over the world did and is most poor quality as compared to those other civilisations. We can swoon over stick figures and poor renditions of prey while trying to not notice that its highly reminiscent of what a 5 yr old would do to their bedroom wall once they get a new set of crayons.

Indeed the only aboriginal 'art' of any real consequence which shows true uniqueness of thought and technique is the so-called Bradshaw paintings. Hilariously, the culture that created these paintings is gone, which is a telling commentary on the claims of the longest culture malarkey. Equally the likelihood that they were replaced by more recent arrivals indicates genocide long before those nasty white people arrived.

Speaking of which we have quite infantile claims that war was essentially unknown to our aboriginal heroes ("therefore missing out on much of the war, genocide and plagues that made history so much fun.") when in fact, based on historic evidence and not Disney-fied fantasies, the proportion of aboriginals killed in warfare over the millennia was probably greater than for any other 'culture' - modern, ancient or stone-age. (one such example is here http://tghstrehlow.wordpress.com/1922/10/11/wednesday-the-eleventh-day-of-october-1922/ where a party of 60 or so ambush and destroy an entire tribe killing all except the infants who instead have the limbs broken and are left to die naturally).

Yes, there is much we can learn from aboriginal 'culture'. But only if we ignore the facts and fall for the fantasy.

mhaze: Yes, there is much we can learn from aboriginal 'culture'. But only if we ignore the facts and fall for the fantasy.

I agree entirely.

"Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!"
Foxy,
last time I heard a crowd attempting to shout that I thought that was filmed in the Middle East but then I saw that it was in a Sydney suburb.

Human beings, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal have lived for most of their existence in a pre-literate culture. Therefore we do not have a written record of most human history. However, great advantages have been made in recent years by the discoveries of archeology. A C Grayling in "Frontiers of Knowledge" has written of this history. Control of fire, domestication of animals, agriculture, art and tool-making were all developed by pre-literate people, and there is no written record of any of it. Some on this list have pointed that there is no written record of Aboriginal development for most of their existence. The same is true whichever tribe we came from.

individual,

AUSSIE! AUSSIE! AUSSIE! The legendary cry that we happy
products of the great southern land emit in order to inform
the world that not only are we Australian, and not only are we
present, but we are, above all, loud.

When we gather in large groups to bellow these three simple
words that are actually one simple word,
we are affirming our identity, and expressing our pride in
the country we call home.

But perhaps, when we express that pride, we fail to think
deeply about exactly why we feel it. What, after all, is
so great about Australia?

Is it the glittering beaches? The rugged outback? Do
we really express pride in our nation based only on the
natural wonders offered by the landmass?

Surely not. As Ben Pobjie tells us in his great read of
a book - "Aussie! Aussie! Aussie!" The real beauty of
this country lies not in trees, seas, or cassowaries, but
in the greatest resource that any country can have,
its people.

And that's a fact worth remembering.

Dear David F.,

Thank You. As always, you lift the tone of any
discussion.

Control of fire, domestication of animals, agriculture, art and tool-making were all developed by pre-literate people,
davidf,
True & sadly it is due to the over educated in bureaucracy that these sensible practises are no longer permitted & cause so much dreadful damage to environment & society !

That's true Foxy, David does lift the tone of any discussion. Then we have a dickens of a time getting it back down into the gutter where it belongs! Seriously, thanks David for your wisdom and knowledge, and you to Foxy, you are both a couple of roses amoung thorns. Ten bucks each should cover that endorsement, for twenty I'll lay it on thick, out to 350 words.

david f,

I've never really liked the term 'pre-literate culture' since it implies a culture that will become literate at some time in the (near?) future. But the fact is that in 1492 (the year Europeans started out on their 300 year world-discovery tour) the stone age peoples in Australia, north America and throughout the Pacific were no closer to gaining writing than they were 1000, 10000 or 60000 years earlier.

In a post I wrote earlier in this thread (it was totally ignored by those who prefer the Disneyfied world of kumbaya stone-age life) I pointed out that writing follows as a natural outgrowth of domestication of grains. Every civilisation that has domesticate grains (be it wheat in the Levantine and Egypt, rice in east Asia or maize in the Americas) fairly quickly developed some form of writing. Cuneiform in the levant, hieroglyphs in Egypt etc. Additionally as domestication of grains and animals increased the sophistication of society and trade, equally writing became more sophisticated. It is thought that the alphabet (an invention on a par with the wheel as among the most important in history) began in the region of Philistine and Judah to facilitate trade and the Greek alphabet which begat our's was most certain an outgrowth of trade.

Prior to the domestication of grain, the whole world was pre-historic. But those societies that gained writing became 'historic' in that they could record the present and the past for the benefit of the future. What you call pre-literate societies never gained that benefit and showed no indication of ever doing so.

In answer to the question of thread, those societies have nothing, absolutely nothing, to offer the modern world.

mhaze,

Do you really believe what you've just posted?

They say - "Silence is golden..."

But in your case:

"Duct tape is silver!"

suits better.

Foxy asked me if I "really believe what you've just posted?"

Answer....Yes. At least until someone with the historic knowledge and intellectual wherewithal to offer a compelling and historically accurate critique comes along.

Foxy, do you know anyone like that?

Clearly those who just say its not true because I don't want it to be true don't qualify. Sorry!

mhaze,

In history's epic sweep we find all the magical
elements that make humanity what it is. History
has it all. When we look into the past, we find
profound insights into the nature of the human race
only by looking at what has come before can we
understand who we are.

But history is more than a way to absolve oneself of
responsibility for the ills of one's own generation.
The past also provides a signpost to the future.
It is said that those who do not understand history
are doomed to repeat it.

It is not true that what you call primitive societies
have absolutely nothing to contribute. You have not
looked very far.

We live with billions of fellow human beings on a
small, warming planet. The cosmopolitan impulse that
draws on our common humanity is no longer a luxury.
It has become a necessity.

The Roman playwright Publius Terentius Afar aka Terence -
who was brought from Africa as a slave and became a
playwright said:

"Homo sum humani nihil a me alienum puto"
"I an human, I think nothing human alien to me."

Maya Angelou, American author and poet tells us that -
if we can internalize at least a portion of that, just
think what you can do about the positive.

If a human being dares to dream, to be a Nelson Mandela,
Mahatma Gandhi, or a Vincent Lingiari. If a human being
dares to be bigger than the condition into which he
or she was born - it means so can you. All you have to
do is stretch yourself so you can internalize. Visit a
museum, read up on the history of our Indigenous people,
stretch, stretch, stretch yourself and you too will
be able to internalize:

"Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto..."

mhaze,

There are plenty of historically accurate accounts
in our museums, libraries, and universities for
you to be able to learn about our Indigenous peoples
history in this country and the reasons for their
lack of so called "contribution" to our society.
Despite the odds they still manage to rise above
what's expected and continue to fight for their
rights:

http://welcometocountry.org/australias-brutal-treatment-of-aboriginal-people/

http://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/breaking-the-myth-of-peaceful-settlement/

cont'd ...

mhaze,

Another typo.

Here's the second link again:

http://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/busting-the-myth-of-peaceful-settlement/

Foxy, I still don't understand exactly can 60000 year old Customs, Traditions, Song & Dance & X-ray Art can teach anybody in the Modern World.

You mentioned Footballers, Dance Troupes & Writers, etc. These are not 60000 year old Aboriginal Customs & Traditions. they are Modern Western Arts, Customs & Traditions that Aboriginal people have learnt from the Modern Western World.

My only wish is that the more educated (in a Western Tradition) would take up a more Modern Western Way of life.

They can still hold onto their old Customs & Tradition on Holiday's like we do with Christmas, Easter, Dress up in a Kilt & go to the Highland Games on Burns Day or wear Green for Paddy's Day.

They could get naked & wear Coloured Dirt & Feathers on Aboriginal Day. I'd join them. You could Too. Ay.

Foxy,

I asked if you knew anyone who had the knowledge and intellectual wherewithal to offer a valid critique of my post.

Your following posts seem a long-winded way of answering "No".

In this entire thread no one has offered anything of any value that stone-age societies offer the modern world. That the best attempt was they gave us the word 'Canberra' pretty much summarises it.

I note there's not a word about my posts on the invention of writing and plant domestication.

BTW, lifting entire paragraphs from others work and trying to pretend they're yours is the exact opposite of knowledge and intellectual wherewithal. I won't embarrass you by being more specific.

Foxy,

The chant of Aussie, Aussie Aussie is hardly legendary as it traces its origin to a British football chant of the 1960s.

Is Mise,

Ben Pobjie has already explained that reference.
I only gave a small glimpse. I suggest you read the
entire book. It will make you laugh out loud.

Foxy: I suggest you read the entire book. It will make you laugh out loud.

As I did with Pascoe's "Dark Emu."

Foxy,
Small glimpse or no, it’s hardly legendary.

Seems that the first humans in England were there 800,000 years ago and the earliest hand writing dates from c.2,000 years ago, luck for the Aboriginal Australians that they got a headstart from the Poms.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE & A HAPPY NEW YEAR. I LOVE YOU ALL.

Thanks for all the entertainment through the year. I Hope were all still here to do it all again next year.

JB

Is Mise,

Australian Aborigines got quite a great deal from
the Poms. In settling Australia as Ben Pobjie points
out they got "Wide open spaces for criminals to die
in, trees to make boats with, a base from which to
have wars, all the kangaroos a man could ride - and
all completely uninhabited, unless you counted the
people who lived there, which in accordance with
the "Ignoring Natives Act of 1754," Britons did not."

"Indeed, the entire British Empire was founded on the
principle of not paying too much attention to anyone
who happened to be standing on a spot that a British
person wanted."

"As George III said, "Nobody ever got anywhere by not
assuming he owned everything he found." (Of course,
he also said, "I am a happy horse, gimme dem oats,"
but that was later on after he joined the grand
tradition of kings going absolutely badger-fiddling
nuts.)

As I said earlier - read the book. You'll love it.

_______________________________________________________

Jayb,

We love you too.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A SAFE, HEALTHY AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Dear mhaze,

We can ask, “What use is a baby?” Those who get excited and horrified by abortion may talk about the loss of a potential Einstein or Shakespeare. The reality is the baby will more likely grow up to be a no good bum. No good bums are much more plentiful than Shakespeares and Einsteins.

Anthropologists who study tribal cultures learn how tribal people meet the challenges of their society. Is this useful information? The challenges of their society are usually unlike the challenges of our society.

Just as we cannot tell what a baby will grow up to be we usually cannot tell what applicability the dynamics of a tribal society are to us.

However, I know of one example where the actions of a tribal culture affected the actions of a modern nation. When the British colonies of North American gained independence from their mother country the Articles of Confederation proved an inadequate means of keeping the new nation together. Shay’s rebellion and other conflicts were tearing the new nation apart. Things looked bad. However, there was a possible solution in emulating the actions of some American Indians.

Faced with the pressures of the French and English in Colonial North America five American Indian tribes (Senecas, Cayugas, Oneidas, Onondagas and Mohawks) formed the Iroquois confederation. Benjamin Franklin was an admirer of the Iroquois Confederation and saw that some of its principles were incorporated in the US Constitution. The US constitution has been the basic law of the nation for over two hundred years.

In Australia it is possible that the Aborigines with controlled burning have a thing or two to teach the Australian government about forest management.

Study of the actions of another culture helps us to look at our culture and question its practices. It may result in our challenging bad practices that we have accepted

david f says: "In Australia it is possible that the Aborigines with controlled burning have a thing or two to teach the Australian government about forest management."

Hmm, nope! The aboriginals' traditional understanding of controlled burning and its impacts on the environment is insignificant compared to what modern western science knows. For example, the aboriginals didn't know what carbon based molecules, Oxygen, CO2 and energy are (ie: the reactants and products of a forest fire), they don't know much energy for a given amount of fuel burnt is released, etc.
Also, their knowledge of the complexities of the environment in general is negligible when compared to modern western societies. For example, their knowledge didn't include anything at all about the microscopic species and these entities are absolutely crucial to a functioning environment. They had no idea, in quantitative terms, about the energy flows and nutrient flows throughout the environment. The knew nothing of the cellular biology and had zero knowledge of chemistry. The knew nothing of evolution.

Overall, modern western scientific knowledge has next to nothing to gain from traditional aboriginal knowledge. The sum total of the aboriginals' understanding about the world around them (ie: scientific knowledge) could be contained in just a few bookcases worth of books. Whereas we have rows and rows and rows of shelves of books in our libraries and there are hundreds of these libraries (devoted exclusively to science) around of the world.

the Aborigines with controlled burning have a thing or two to teach the Australian government about forest management.
davidf,!
Not the government, the bureaucrats who are all Uni educated & who work for the Government !

In regard to Aboriginal forest fire management I am wrong.

thinkabit & davidf,
I think you're both right. My view is that it is the logic & common & practical sense that plays the main role here. In that, the Aborigines definitely triumphed over the bureaucrats of late.
Yes, modern knowledge is great but much of it is pointless when there's no wisdom & in fact does even more harm than the wisdom of early man.
Is there really 60,000 years of 'culture' ? The presence of homo erectus does not automatically translate into culture.
Early man wouldn't have had the time to play, they would have been to busy feeding & defend themselves. So-called culture would not have made an appearance until much, much more recently. Many people confuse & make the mistake of calling basic existence culture.
There are animals that pic up a stick or a rock & sing & dance but is that culture ?
I think culture developed thousands of years after the emergence of mankind & has reached its peak a 100 years ago & now is in the declining stage !

Dear individual,

One of the meanings of the word, culture, is the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

Every society has culture in that sense.

Here is a link that also explains things rather
well:

http://welcomet0country.org/9-lessons-australia-learn-aboriginal-people/

It's worth a read.

Also as the final sentence tells us:

"It's also important to note that there are a lot more
than just 9 lessons that can be learned from our people;
there are thousands."

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

Cont'd ...

Darn - my eyesight.

Sorry for the typo - here's the link again:

http://welcometocountry.org/9-lessons-australia-learn-aboriginal-people/

Hi Foxy,

Sadly, for the Forum haters to admit there is value in Aboriginal culture, then they would be admitting there is value in Aboriginal people. Any such admission goes against their belief that all benefits of mankind, and they can only speak of material benefits, is the result of European superiority. This all plays into their narrative of justification for the genocide and brutalisation of indigenous people the world over.

I must sound harsh and unforgiving, my wife tells me I am, but that's how I feel. I say to her look at the crimes the Pakeha committed against your people? She will say, yes, we mustn't forget, but we must move on for a better life for the moko's and all the tamariki's (childern) of tomorrow. I do agree with that, but you can't have a future if you don't truly recognise the past.

I now hear Cricket Australia is adopting 60,000 years of aboriginal history whatever that means, they forget others in the team have an equal line of history. It is BS.

PBJ, not doubting what you hear, but can't find any such announcement on the official Cricket Australia website. I HEAR, your church is adopting the NAZI salute in place of the sign of the cross. We all all hear things.

Paul, it was on SEVEN news at 6pm Christmas night. Was does adopting 60,000 years of aboriginal culture mean?

Every society has culture in that sense.
davidf,
The way you describe the definition of culture makes it simply put, existence. I'd have thought culture is a result of customs not related to basic survival but activities for enjoyment !
The word culture is actually much misused & in many cases exploited for convenience for excuse.

PBJ, that might mean the Australian Mens T20 team wearing an indigenous designed shirt in a match in Adelaide. Recognition that the first Australian cricket team to your England over 150 years ago was an Aboriginal team. Most likely sent as a curiosity for the English more than anything, they acquitted yourselves quite well, and amused the English at the same time. Can you enlighten us please?

It is coming to the point of identifying our DNA and aligning ourselves with the cultures of that DNA major strands. Hitler believed that through evolution you could develop a master race. Fear and shame are driving this current ancient history push - who has the oldest unchanged History. It is a part of BLM agenda - when we need unity and not individual identity on race or culture. ALL MEN ARE BORN EQUAL. instead of all men must achieve equality and that is done by communism shaming the achievers and praising the low achievers.

Our country's history should
be told and it should include our Indigenous people.
Foxy,
It goes without saying that a Nation's history & it's indigenous is recorded & told. Such history must include atrocities, natural & man-made disasters & of course social upheaval.
It should not be filtered nor coloured-in nor should it become a tool for hypocrisy.
History is history good or bad but history it is. Those who disagree with parts of it will alway try to pervert it & vice versa & as we are witnessing now, selectively modify it !
What does all this mean ? It means that the history we read is not always history !

Josephus,

This is for you:

http://fromtheheart.com.au

Josephus,
All men are not born equal, nor are they all born with equal rights, they are born unequal and anything else is plain BS.
It may be said that they are all born with the right to seek equality but even that is doubtful.

Foxy,
As I said I’d rather play Patience than waste my time reading the garbled imaginings of a no much good comedian.

shaming the achievers and praising the low achievers.
Joesphus,
That's what's being pushed & exploited by Woke wannabe Dictators. A good, benevolent Dictator would reward effort & encourage effort for those who straggle.
In other words, work towards a common good instead of devoting so much effort to sabotage.

Is Mise,

I think you've got me mixed up with someone who
gives a shyte what you think.

Okay, Foxy. I've had a good look at you Link. Surprise, surprise, I agree with you that there are some things we can learn from 60000 year old Culture.

It would be no good for me or anyone, other than an Anthropologist. I watch a lot of History Channel etc. When the Anthropologists find the remains of, say post holes arranged in a circle & they find a number of these circles they can say with some certainty that there was a village there. etc. They know how the village & the buildings were constructed because, in Africa, some of the Native peoples are still living as they were 60000 years ago. (Wattle & Daub huts)

If they find a hollow bone with purposely cut hole They can say they made music. If they found flaked stone tools they can say they were reasonably advanced. If they found burials with grave good they were even more advanced, etc.

In Australia it's has been much harder. Very few purpose burials, very few basic Flaked Stone tools older than 20000 years, Dreamtime stories that relate to their Genesis. Much the same as Islanders, SE Asians, Indians, the Middle East & so on.

All this is only of interest to Anthropologists (& Me) but of very little use to 99.99% of the rest of us ordinary people. There is still nothing of value to improve us in this Modern World.

Foxy I
I haven’t got you confused with anybody, you’re the one that recommended the comedian’s book.

Dear Jayb,

If you're in the mood for reading there's a book
that I received for Christmas -
"Australia Reimagined: Towards a compassionate less anxious
society," by Hugh Mackay that may be of interest to you.

I'm looking forward to reading it. Apparently it's
a detailed analysis of this country today. I hope
that it does offer some practical suggestions on
the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

Is Mise,

What comedian's book are you talking about?

cont'd ...

Is Mise,

Is you're referring to the political satirist Ben Pobjie?
He's known for his writing in The Age, The Sydney Morning
Herald, and many other media outlets. He's written for
TV Shows, quite a few books, and the list goes.

I cited some extracts from some of his books and recommended
further reading for anyone interested in reading more.
The fact that you're not interested does not interest me.

Foxy: it's
a detailed analysis of this country today. I hope that it does offer some practical suggestions on the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

That book will be about what lies ahead, For all Australians. (Aboriginal & Whitie. I don't discriminate) It has nothing to do with the Culture of Aboriginals from 60000 to 1776.

As I said in my last Post anything that can be gleaned, at enormous effort, from the past 60000 years to 1776 is only of use to Anthropologists not to the Common Whitie.

Dear Jayb,

It's about inclusion. Learning about each other.
Setting positive examples for younger generations.
Not feeling negative and superior and only
adhering to a one-sided view of things. Like the
old adage tells us:

"Oh, you don't like being treated the way you treat
others? That must suck!"

I already include all peoples of all types in my life. Even all the women with serious Mental Problems around where I live (7 in all)

Inclusiveness is another Subject for discussion later. This is about whether we, as ordinary Australians, Academics excluded, can learn anything from the past 600000 years of Aboriginal Traditions & Culture.

Personally, I think not.

Paul et al,

"for the Forum haters to admit there is value in Aboriginal culture, then they would be admitting there is value in Aboriginal people."

The problem is that you all assume that anyone who doesn't swoon at all things aboriginal, must be racist. You'll never understand it, but in fact those who tailor their views based on race are indeed the racists. Its a benign form of racism but racism nonetheless.

By choosing to disbelieve or simply ignore things about aboriginal culture that are less than edifying indicates that you are embarrassed by those things and have decided to negate them in order to maintain a glowing view of that culture.

I've mentioned more times than I'd care to remember that aboriginal culture was extremely warlike with a very high proportion of their population dying in war each year. You (plural you) have never sought to challenge that truth, choosing instead to ignore it while maintaining the fantasy that the natives were peace-loving. Choosing to see a culture in ways that differ from the truth is (benign) racism.

I've talked of the aboriginal art and how unremarkable it is (except for the Bradshaw culture which was likely exterminated by that peace-loving culture). Again swooning over the rock art when it really is very so-so in comparison to other primitive cultures indicates a determination to elevate the culture while quietly ignoring its deficiencies. Again benign racism.

It was a culture that had and has little to offer others. Pretending to elevate them to the level of Europeans by pretending they were sedentary farmers, shows an understanding that the culture cannot stand alone on its real qualities.

Again, I've mentioned many times (again ignored by Paul et al) that wishing away the misogyny of aboriginal culture carries through to the present to the detriment of the current generation of aboriginal women, young girls and kids. Allowing that to continue in preference to addressing the truth of the culture, is the real racism.

mhaze, how can you be certain of your negative portrayal of aboriginal life pre 1788. Ever what it was, it was preferable to the mass extinction of the native population around Sydney Cove caused by Europeans, within 2 years of settlement.

Jayb, what is the significance of 1776? Are you a Septic Tank?

Hi Paul,

There's a wonderful Aboriginal Art 2022 Calendar
that is available for purchase from Australia Post
for $9.99.

I bought four copies as Christmas presents to send
overseas - to friends and relatives in London,
Germany, Los Angeles and Canada. I also bought several
for our family.

"Australian Indigenous artist Loretta Egan has provided
a colourful collection of traditional Aboriginal dot
paintings. Known as the oldest ongoing tradition of Art
in the world. It is practiced by numerous Indigenous
communities throughout Australia and perfectly exhibits
the cultural aspects of Australia's Indigenous Peoles."

"One of Loretta's paintings was presented to the Queen
on a visit to Perth. A year later, Loretta was approached
to do a special piece that would go on to be a part of an
Art Exhibition in London in which the guest of honour was
Her Majesty, the Queen of England..."

There's more at:

http://lorettaegansartwork.com

Foxy,
There is a public building in Sydney that has a display of Aboriginal art and among the dot paintings is one that was done with Taubman’s acryllic water based paint by the Europeans on the maintenance staff on a bit of scrap masonite, they hung it with the.others when they were putting them up and because no one, including Indigenous experts(?) noticed the forgery they were not game to remove it and it still hangs with the rest; the culprits have long since retired.

Remember the Indian bloke in. WA who got done for forging Aboriginal art and selling it?
Apparently he was quite good.

Is Mise,

There you go. The traditional Aboriginal dot
paintings have influenced others. Thanks for
confirming that. Unfortunately for them though
none of their works were presented to Royalty,
hung in Art Exhibitions, or sold out for
high amounts of money.

Issy.

Reference please

BTW, How did that last reference I did for you go? Did you get the job at the Pickle Factory? Don't tell me you're still a trainee frankfort skinner after 30 years.

BBTW, nice bottle of scotch from the kids in Sydney for Xmas, been good, haven't opened it. The kids here also gave me a bottle of OP Bundy Rum, it's got 2 drinks left, maybe only one, see how much ice I've got left, no one here likes rum, oh well!

MERRY CHRISTMAD!

Foxy,
Not only Aboriginals do traditional dot paintings and the “experts” can’t tell the fakes, some of which have been sold for high prices
Note that many traditional paintings are done with acrylic paint; see there’s a European benefit right off, no need for a bit of unhygienic blood letting to get a good binder.

Issy,

Without a reference we'll have to present you with another 'Pork Award'. What's that 200 for 2021. You're already a certainty for the 2021 'Gold Porky'.

Paul: Jayb, what is the significance of 1776? Are you a Septic Tank?

Fa Gawd sake someone enlighten him. I can't stop laughing. Failure of the School System.

Foxy: "Australian Indigenous artist Loretta Egan has provided a colourful collection of traditional Aboriginal dot paintings. Known as the oldest ongoing tradition of Art in the world.

Ay? Place: Rum Jungle, Arenamland.
Time: 1926.
Situation: Bored Frenchman whose favourite Painter was Matisse.
Cure: Teach local Aboriginal Aboriginal how to pain in Dots like Matisse.
Result: Aboriginal Dot Painting.

But, I've explained this to you some many time, Foxy. Have you got your ear's on this time? Or, are you just ignoring facts as you normally do.

Foxy: There you go. The traditional Aboriginal dot paintings have influenced others.

Jumped on the Bandwagon you mean.

Foxy: Unfortunately for them though none of their works were presented to Royalty,

Because they knew.

Foxy: sold out for high amounts of money.

Ha ha ha, Painting Snobs, fools. Ay.

Jayb, there is no significance to the year 1776 in an Australian context. Other than the the American colonies were at war with GB and not taking your ancestors anymore. Both the years 1770 and 1788 are of greater significance in the story of Australian colonisation. How about you enlighten me. Typical you had no answer so you try the old diversion trick, someone give him the answer.

The only aboriginal painter I would purchase is Albert Namatjira. He painted in the exact colour he saw, I've seen the same scenes and he captured them perfectly. He did not need dots to create his impressions.

BTW Jayb in the early years of the American War, 1776 and thereafter the British were winning, Washington's rag-tag army was getting its arse kicked, desertions were up, a shortage of supplies was causing starvation to set in. Of course you know all that, ha ha.

If a Frenchman showed Aboriginals how to paint with dots, that's good, one culture benefiting by learning from another. Europeans learned the art of noddle making from the Chinese.

Paul,
I’m not going to give up the blokes who crehated the fraud in the public collection of Aboriginal art, let the ‘experts’ find it.

Earlier I wrote: "You'll never understand it, but in fact those who tailor their views based on race are indeed the racists. Its a benign form of racism but racism nonetheless."

And by their replies they demonstrate it. Paul, Foxy et al think that being uniformly gullible about all things native means they aren't racist. But its the opposite. For example, tailoring your response to domestic violence based on the race of the perpetrator and victim, is obviously, or should be obviously, racist. But alas they'll never get it and most certainly won't admit it.

Just on the dot painting malarkey....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Bardon

There's plenty more about it, but I suspect Foxy et al aren't interested.

Hilariously, an art form invented 50 years ago is now considered by the woke as being deeply traditional and sacrosanct... http://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2019/03/14/ricky-gervais-fake-aboriginal-art-not-prop-its-cultural-theft1

Its invented and then claimed to be ancient. The whole welcome to country story is in the same league - recently invented then asserted to be ancient.

Of course, its not limited to the Australian Aboriginal. Recent invention of 'ancient' tradition happens all over the world. Tourist in Hawaii experience 'authentic' feasts and hula dance -both of which were invented for the tourists.

Amer-Indians lament the white destruction of their 'ancient' horse culture, forgetting the that there were no horses in north America before Columbus. The horse culture didn't exist until Spaniards introduced horses - but that is now ignored just like all the invented aboriginal 'culture'.

And recognising that, isn't racist. Pretending to ignore it, is.

True Aboriginal Art is uniquely connected to the
country of the artist. It's often comprised of
symbols that are uniquely tied to a particular
country or a particular language group's story.
It often communicates stories - sometimes of the
Dreaming that only specific people have permission
to use.

Forgery and fakes in Art have always existed and
have been a problem to the international art market.
Aboriginal Art is unique and ever so special they
embody the old adage - "Paintings can be forged
but not the feeling." And there's so much we
can learn if we're lucky enough to delve deeper.

There's more at the following link that explains
further:

http://kateowengallery.com/page/10-facts-About-Aboriginal-Art

Foxy,
What is true Aboriginal art?
Any links?

Paul1405: Both the years 1770 and 1788 are of greater significance in the story of Australian colonisation.

My apologies. 1788.

Declaring a people's culture as being worthless, is one step before declaring the people themselves as worthless, and open to extermination. Of course our forum racists will tell you they are no such thing, just pointing out the facts, all negative of course. The real racists are the "do gooders" who can't see the truth.

Foxy, dose this mob remind you of anyone? That mob took the same attitude towards others, a worthless culture, made up of less than worthless people, open to extermination.

Aboriginal artists have one thing to thank the Europeans for, acrylic paint and it comes in traditional colours or, if ones traditions are more modern it can be tinted.to your desired hue at the paint store.

Is Mise,

You asked about Aboriginal Art and a link?

I gave a link in my previous post.
However, here it is again:

http://kateowengallery.com/page/10-facts-About-Aboriginal-Art

_____________________________________________________________________

Dear Paul,

History is clear about the brutal treatment of our Indigenous
people by white settlers and how their population was
drastically reduced through violence, the introduction of
diseases, and the prevention of access to land that had
provided them with food and resources.

The introduction of alcohol to them was also a disaster.
Many Aboriginals were paid in alcohol or tobacco ( if their
wages weren't stolen) and white settlers also gave alcohol
to Aboriginal people to pay for sex. In the early 1800s
the white settlers found it amusing to ply Aboriginal men
with alcohol and encourage them to fight each other.

Knowing their sad history should make it even more incredible
in how patient and tolerant our First Nations people have
been and still are. We can learn so much from them and
their connections to the land and each other.

There's so much to learn, respect, and try to understand.

Of course the benign racism toward the aboriginals is generally harmless. If the anxiously gullible want to believe that dot art is an ancient form of expression it does no one any harm and creates a new industry. If the woke society wants to believe, in defiance of all historic knowledge, that aboriginal society practiced welcome-to-country ceremonies, then so what, it provides a few carpet-baggers with employment and gives those who buy into it, the warm inner glow of honouring what they think is highly significant ancient traditions - traditions going back a whole 50 years!!

After all, this whole thing is just a SBS marketing campaign to try to assert that they are relevant in modern society. While they'll rope in the gullible, no serious policy-maker is ever going to fall for the daft notion that aboriginal society has anything to offer modern education, for example. So a bit of woke marketing with no harm done.

But sometimes this benign racism as practiced by the likes of Paul and Foxy does have evil consequences. As I've mentioned many times before, domestic violence is rampant in the aboriginal community with native women 35 times more likely to be hospitalised due to DV than their non-native counter-parts. That is bad. What is worse is that the woke society turns a blind eye to this so as to not appear racist toward native men and not draw attention to the highly misogynistic nature of aboriginal 'culture'. When governments prepare anti-DV campaigns, aboriginals never feature. DV funds rarely go to stopping it in aboriginal communities. While there is strident efforts to re-educate urban white boys about misogyny, no such campaigns are aimed at their black counterparts.

So while the feel-good racism of the woke is generally harmless, for aboriginal women that isn't the case.

And still the 'Aboriginal uber alles' crowd avert their eyes.

There's a lot of talk about how aborigines were treated in the past - well before the time of anyone living today. But, all that is irrelevant to anyone connected to aboriginality now. All Australians have had opportunities provided by governments - nothing to do with individuals or their attitudes and opinions, apart from the fact that their taxes are paying for it. Some Australians, black and white, have decided not to avail themselves of those opportunities. That's a fact of life: certainly nothing that will be changed by a bunch of sanctimonious do-gooders and know alls who don't have to do anything but criticise and blame other people for a small section of society’s self-destruction through laziness, stupidity or lack of interest. If people would just shut up, mind their business and accept that most of these no hopers will continue to survive, happy in their own way, on a little bit of dole money, we wouldn't have to listen to boring bullshite about problems that will never be fixed.

The Biblical myths of creation in Genesis developed from the Stone Age culture of the ancient Hebrews. The Aboriginal myths of creation in Dreamtime developed from the Stone Age culture of the ancient Aborigines.

Both myths are beautiful, but they are products of primitive minds trying to make sense out of a world they inhabited but did not have the tools to understand. We can accept that both myths are beautiful stories that are no longer useful in understanding the world we live in. Christian missionaries were unreasonable in demanding that Aborigines accept the Biblical myths and Christian superstitions rather than their own.

Now we have the sciences of astronomy, paleontology, archeology and other disciplines based on scientific evidence. From those scientific disciplines we are pretty sure that the universe began 13.72 billion years ago, planet earth 4.5 billion years ago, life on planet earth 4 billion years ago, hominins 6 million years ago, Homo 2 million years ago, anatomically modern humans 300 kya (thousand years ago), behavourally modern humans 100 kya, settled agriculture 10 kya, cities 5 kya. Let us recognize that those Biblical and Aboriginal myths are Stone Age creations and move into the modern world together.

Talking of paintings, I recall when the Whitlam government purchased the Jackson Pollack work 'Blue Poles for $1.3m, the Old Farts were jumping up and down then, calling it worthless garbage. Like with so many of the Whitlam governments initiatives the Old Farts have been forced to eat their words as they collect their increased pension and flash their Medicare card for free medical.

We now have a new concept "benign racism" is that like having a benign tumor growing out of your arse.

Sad passing of Desmond Tutu in South Africa, a fighter all his life of "benign racism" .

Paul,
I’ve seen Blue Poles and I’ve seen better painting on the sides of sheds.

Issy,

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so they say, seen a few works of art that leave me cold.

Those guys who did the dot art, which I do like, its got a character all of its own, even if its only 5 minutes old. The wife went to an aboriginal art class in Sydney, just for interest and said the dot painting is hard to do, she preferred the straight bark painting, but again couldn't get that aboriginal style correct. Wife is good at flax weaving, learn from her granny starting at the age of 5, took her 10 years to learn the basics, granny started her on gathering the flax at first, hard work for a 5 year old.

Is Mise: I’ve seen Blue Poles and I’ve seen better painting on the sides of sheds.

I agree.

For the benifits of those reading Genesis Story, there has been a lot of misinformation of the understanding of the facts contained. There is only three times God creates not seven. !. Time space and matter [chemicals] 2. beginning of life. 3. The human mind and spirit to create [made in God's image].

All other developments happened by the nature of the already created chemicals and envirionment eg. Let the Earth bring forth. etc. Read the Hebrew not English translations.

Issy a funny one,

Some gallery had an abstract painting hanging for years. Then the artists himself paid a visit to said art gallery. Keen to impress, the officials took the artist to show him his great masterpiece, they swooned over it, telling him how magnificent it was, capturing ones true inner self etc etc. The artists said; "Yes, yes, quite so, but one question...WHY! is my great work hanging UPSIDE DOWN!.... "oh, sh!t, we don't know."

Last night I watched Chris Tarrant's journey of 1,000
miles across Japan. It was fascinating learning about
a very different culture and the Shinto religion.
He even met a celebrity station master - who happened
to be a cat.

Just goes to show the different belief systems that exist
in our very diverse world. Why do some of us insist on
everyone being exactly the same? Identical to us?
Not all religions are looking for converts - or to convert
others to their way of thinking.

Why can't we simply let people enjoy their identity and
culture, maintain and use their language, maintain their
kinship ties and in the case of our Indigenous people
why can't their maintain their distinctive spiritual
relationships with the land and waters in which they
have a connection?

Live and let live?

Yes, no more conflict, Listen, to Foxy you guys; instead allow ISIS to hold their views and practise their religion. Alllow Iran to carry our their religion. Just allow aboriginals to return to their pre 1770 life and beliefs. STOP TRYING TO INFLUENCE CHANGE! Foxy has the answer, listen - live and let live! Language is the curse that has caused conflict - stop communicating language!

Dear Josephus,

Didn't Jesus say to love your neighbour as
yourself?
for a self-proclaimed Christian you're not
very good at practicing what He taught.

david f: "Let us recognize that those Biblical and Aboriginal myths are Stone Age creations and move into the modern world together."

Well many cultures have moved into the modern world. What is proposed here is that we give equal adherence to the stone age myths as to the modern world beliefs.

________________________________________________________________

Paul wrote "We now have a new concept "benign racism".

Well Paul, its not a new concept. The term has been around for at least the last half-century. But its the type of concept that people like yourself and Foxy who practice it wouldn't recognise nor understand.

I find it fascinating that nobody here including the benign racists have even acknowledged the racism involved in turning a blind-eye to aboriginal domestic violence.

_____________________________________________________________________

Paul wrote:" Desmond Tutu in South Africa, a fighter all his life of "benign racism" ."

And another who practiced it. Check out his views and anti-Semitic attitudes.

___________________________________________________________________

Foxy asks: "Why can't we simply let people enjoy their identity and
culture,"

Well I don't think anyone here has objected to people practicing their own culture. But the original proposal was that one culture needed to subsume its practices to that of another (lesser) culture.

mhaze,

You're right - our Indigenous culture is
being asked to subsume its practices to
another culture which you suggest is
superior and that of our Indigenous people's
culture as being "lesser" or "inferior."

Therein lies the problem.

What is being asked by our Indigenous people
is that they be consulted and have a say
regarding any laws that specifically affect only them.

Surely that's a fair request?

cont'd ...

mhaze,

Surely all of us should be able to understand that
our First People today make up less than 3% of
our population and in our system of government that
makes it hard to have their voice heard. It makes it
hard to influence laws that are made about them in
Parliament.

It is vital that they have a real say in the laws,
policies, and programs that affect their rights.

I support the 1st Peoples recognition in our Constitution
and I support their request. It's way overdue.
It to me seems like a fair request that they are asking
for a voice which can give advice to parliament about
Indigenous issues.

This group would make sure that the parliament hears Indigenous
voices when they make laws, policies, and programs about
Indigenous people. This would help parliament
make better and more effective laws for the Indigenous people.

Foxy,
Thanks for the link but it’s mainly advertising; have you got a link to “Welcome to Country”?

The thread starts "SBS and NITV is promoting the idea we should adopt aboriginal culture as our primary culture in Australia"

Now that was probably an exaggeration of what SBS proposed but Foxy spent quite some time trying unsuccessfully to find something in aboriginal culture that might benefit the wider community.

Foxy, realising that her support for that daft notion has been comprehensively ridiculed, now tries to move the gaol posts by suggesting the real issue is giving a segment of society an outsized say in the nation's affairs.

Well that wasn't the original point and isn't what's been discussed. Still its Foxy 101 to change the subject when she's been debunked.

______________________________________________________

BTW Foxy, any thoughts on the disproportionate rates of DV in the aboriginal community?

Foxy, true love shares things and ideas that benefit your neighbour. Live and let live is a cop-out, instead of love and care. "He that knoweth to do good and does it not, has committed sin." To give concent to culture that treats women as slaves is a return to the Stone Ages.

Why does aboriginal culture want to superseed Western Culture in Australia? The only criterion claimed is that it is 60,000 years old, so in their mind it has superior value. It is all a vague promotion with no real guts or constitution. Tribal elders are dissapointed that their young are being educated in Western values and work disciplines and losing their Stone Age culture.

Much is to be gained for acknowledging Aboriginal history everywhere & Aborigine history is remarkable in its own right.
Inventing new descriptions helps no-one !

mhaze,

They're not asking for an outsized say in the nation's
affairs. Why are you still persisting with that.
You know full well that all they are asking is to have
a real say in the laws, policies, and programs that
affect them. They are asking for parliament to hear
Indigenous voices about Indigenous issues. Which would
help parliament make better and more effective laws for
Indigenous people.

Aborigines want a say in laws that only affect them. Sounds fair at first glance. However, would you want criminals to have a say in laws that only affect them. Laws are made for the good of the community even though they may only affect part of the community.

Foxy,
Sharia law for the Muslims?

mhaze,

You asked about DV in Indigenous communities.

There are various explanations as to why the
rates of domestic and family violence are more
prevalent in Indigenous communities.
Explanations offered include things like ongoing
trauma from the displacement of Indigenous people
from their traditional lands and kinship groups.

The removal of children from families.

Ongoing negative relationship between Indigenous
people and the criminal justice system - and the list
goes on.

There's also the low expectations that mainstream
society has for Indigenous Australians.

The high-rate of unemployment and poverty.

And finally - substance misuse - that all could
contribute. A very sad situation indeed for our first
people.

mhaze and Is Mise,

These links might help with further understanding:

http://fromtheheart.com.au

http://fromtheheart.com.au/why-does-the-voice-matter

Hi Foxy and David,

Foxy, what mhaze won't admit is DV is just as high in the white community at the same socio-economic level as the black community. His figures are distorted by the educated, well off who have very low levels of DV, and they are predominantly white. Its nothing to with aboriginal culture.

David, should all those sectional interest lobby groups influencing government decision making also be run out of Canberra? They certainly have a voice to government. Banks, big business etc etc.

PBJ, started the whole thread with his big lie, and the rednecks ran with it. It suited their narrative!

Dear Paul1405,

Aborigines should have the same right to lobby regarding laws that affect them as any other group in Australian society. They have that right now. What more is wanted?

Hi David,

I don't agree, I believe Aboriginal people are a unique part of Australian society, and as such should have a special voice to parliament, regarding laws only affecting them, unlike the voice big business or Rupert Murdoch etc has now. There is no suggestion First Australians should have veto power, or authority to make laws outside of parliament.

Dear Davif F.,

The Aboriginal people have a long history of
fighting and lobbying for their rights.
The following link explains this complex history:

http://abc.net.au/news/2018-07-04/complex-history-of-indigenous-and-non-indigenous-australia/9930944

Dear Paul,

You wrote:

“I don't agree, I believe Aboriginal people are a unique part of Australian society, and as such should have a special voice to parliament, regarding laws only affecting them, unlike the voice big business or Rupert Murdoch etc has now. There is no suggestion First Australians should have veto power, or authority to make laws outside of parliament.”

Since you write that “There is no suggestion First Australians should have veto power, or authority to make laws outside of parliament” what form would you give that special voice? To refer to the Aborigines as First Australians is rather a misnomer. The Aborigines inhabited a land area which later was called Australia. The First Australians were those people who were citizens of that land area at the time the land area was first known as Australia. The Aborigines had a society before Australia existed. To call them First Australians is to deny that. They were also excluded from Australian society at the time that the land area was first called Australia.

The Aborigines are a unique part of Australian society. Rupert Murdoch is also a unique part of Australian society. I feel that the influence of the Aborigines is more benign than the influence of Rupert Murdoch, but both are unique.

I believe the Aborigines should have the power to make laws outside of parliament. They should have the same power to make laws that affect them as Orthodox Jews have the power to make laws concerning what is kosher for those Jews who wish to follow those laws.

Since the land was taken from the Aborigines and many of them were murdered in the process I believe they should receive some recompense for that. They are not First Australians. They are a conquered people conquered by a society that later became Australia.

So we should have a special parliament-lite, membership of which would be restricted to one race. Only one race would be able to vote for it. Only one race would be allowed as members. It would only make laws or recommend laws about one race.

This is the very definition of racism. Sure its racism to supposedly benefit that one race, but racism nonetheless. Its that benign racism that has so bamboozled poor ol' Paul.

Forty years ago, Australia joined the world in opposing apartheid. Now the woke want to introduce it here.

________________________________________________________________

Paul/ Foxy assert without the slightest evidence that the high rates of DV against black women is due to poverty. Yet the DV industry itself asserts that it has nothing to do with wealth and that it occurs in all levels of society. That's why, when governments do anti-DV campaigns, it always targets white middle-class men.

But I understand how this works. If, today, you need it to be about poverty, then it is. And if, tomorrow, you need it to NOT be about poverty, then it isn't. The causes are what you need them to be right now. And these people will later claim to be the followers of the science.

Of course, its all about the politics. The welfare of the black women - well that needs to come a distant second to the politics of lauding the black men.

Black women have suffered overwhelming abuse at the hands of their men for millennia and white apologists are allowing that to continue.

Australua was always Australia, even before Matthew Flinders named it Australia, I see nothing wrong with a formal voice to parliament for the First Australians.

mhaze in your Joe Goebbels style purposely misrepresents what I say, both on an Aboriginal voice and the issue of DV. DV is never acceptable, be it from black or white. mhaze you being one of the haters, I don't believe you have any concern for black women, you see DV as a weapon you can use to bash Aboriginal people over the head with.

Laws are made for the good of the community
davidf,
Yes, it's the only way to think as a Nation ! Unfortunately, the Laws to deal with Law breakers aren't strict enough & the disciplinary actions are laughable !
Aborigines are already the most looked after group on the face of the planet yet they still want more on top of the highest lease payments in history !

Because we have in Parliament a lot of brainless activits who cannot develop laws that encompass all society. A healthy society does not work on Social activits it whorks on compassionate thinkers. It is better if the Government does not set laws to control private life and personal decisions. But we have Governments setting laws on social values and beliefs - these are religious values set by society.

What laws do aboriginals want exclusively for them?

Paul,
I agree that a formal voice in Parliament for the first Australians would be a good thing, but it’s a moot point as the first Australians died out millennia ago.
The latecomers will just have to be content with being ordinary citizens.

Paul accuses me of usign DV as " a weapon you can use to bash Aboriginal people over the head with". Strange choice of words given that half of aboriginal society is already being bashed over the head and have been for millennia.

Paul thinks I hate aboriginals because I don't swoon at all the falsehoods claimed for them by the woke. Paul fails to see that recognising current and past aboriginal society for what is was/is rather than what the apologists hope it is, isn't hate. In fact its the best way to improve the lot of the aboriginals.

What laws do aboriginals want exclusively for them?
Josephus,
The real Aborigines aren't asking for a lot, it's those who shamelessly exploit having a drop or two of Aborigine blood & who by large experienced a much better existence who are the demand mongers but don't actually spell out out a definitive compensation plan. They just want funding & keep bleating racism warranted or unwarranted. As long as they can be a thorn in the side of Europeans. I have yet to hear one of them calling the millions of non-Europeans here invaders !
The everyday decent Aborigines must be rather ashamed of these hypocritical exploiters.

Having stated the above I should also mention that I know more European Bogans than Aborigines !

Here's more information on an Indigenous voice to
Parliament:

http://abc.net.au/news/2021-12-17/indigenous-voice-to-parliament/100708186

Foxy,
Therewasno mention of the pay sales.

Foxy,
I’ll type that again (lol).
There was no mention of the pay scales.

Is Mise,

You can take up your inquiry here:

http://niaa.gov.au/who-we-are/contact-us#enquiries

Sadly, this subject will continue to be hotly debated & I only wish there was a less challenging way of discussing it.
The original question re 60,000 years of culture is in my opinion invalid as period of existence does not equal culture !
The Europeans claim thousands of years of culture yet observing many of today's European descendants are anything but cultured unless Bogans are considered cultured which I doubt !

As far as culture goes Give me a full blood Aborigine over a non-indigenous Okker moron any day !
Why decent Australians don't make an effort to weed out these useless drugged-to-the eyeballs
morons has got me stumped, it could easily be achieved with a national Service !

A group of aboriginal activits attempted to burn down the OLD Parliament House and caused extensive damage. Vidio shows them clapping and chanting "Let it burn". This is the culture we are supposed to respect.

This is the culture we are supposed to respect.
Josephus,
I'd imagine there weren't any Aborigines involved, only full-time morons who think they once saw an Aborigine !

Josephus,

The protesters are not associated with the Tent Embassy.
They were anti-vaccine campaigners who as some one explained:

"They had to burn the door down just to get the message
across."

The Tent Embassy has condemned the actions of the protesters
and has distanced itself from them. They also did not give
the protesters permission for the "mock burning ceremony."

Blaming our Indigenous people is simply wrong. The tent Embassy
had been there for weeks and if they wanted to burn down the
doors they could have done it at any time. They did not do it.
Their actions deserve our respect. And they certainly did not
condone the actions of these protesters.

PBJ, Let's condemn violence in any form for any cause, I do, and this is no exception. Will you now condemn the violent murderous thugs in Washington, 6th Jan 2021, people you are yet to condemn, and in fact claimed justification to a degree for their actions.

Well clearly the fire wasn't started by the tent protestors - it was started by other people who supported the tent protestors. But we can be sure it was started by aboriginals or people claiming to be aboriginal because if it were otherwise (eg Foxy's fictitious anti-vaxxers) then the media would be shouting it from the rafters. Instead they are trying hard to bury the story.

The ABC used all its usual tricks to hide the truth. It ran a long article which spent most of the time telling us who DIDN'T start the fire and avoiding, like the plague, any attempt to lay blame.

Well we can be certain it wasn't Tasmanian aboriginals because they'd forgotten how to make fire and they surely wouldn't culturally appropriate our Redheads, would they?

This is the place where the sainted Gough made his speech after being sacked in 1975. In that regard we can say..."Well may we say God save the queen....because nothing will save the aboriginal morons".

But I agree with Paul. This is directly analogous to Washing DC on 6/1. So we can assume it was an insurrectionist attempt to overthrow the constitution and all those involved should be locked up and the key thrown in Lake Burley Griffin.

Just one thing Paul. You wrote " the violent murderous thugs". The only person murdered was a protestor. Damn those pesky facts!!

Paul, you would have to be a halfwit! You gain no respect from me by calling PBJ. It indicates your poor character if you cannot address the person respectfully.

You select what violence you respect. If violence is used it indicates a case is lost by reasoning. You respect those that burn down businesses and Government buildings in the name of BLM, but selectively target the House of Parliament in the USA. You should know I do not support destruction a a form of protest. Which you see to condone on Australia's Institutions.

Snopes: "On Jan. 6, 2021, a pro-Trump mob overwhelmed law enforcement and breached the U.S. Capitol, leading to a delay in the certification of the 2020 presidential election and the evacuation of senators, representatives, staff, and journalists from both chambers of Congress. Officers drew their weapons and fired shots as rioters smashed through windows in an attempt to enter the House chamber. One woman was shot, and later died.

After order was restored to the Capitol, D.C. Police Chief Robert Conte held a news conference providing a first report on the day’s casualties. Four people, including the woman who was shot, had died. This number would rise to five by the week’s end.

“One adult female and two adult males appear to have suffered from separate medical emergencies, which resulted in their deaths,” Conte said."

I see Greens Senator Lidia Thorpe has been condemned from across the political spectrum after she tweeted a statement implicitly endorsing a fire that damaged the front of Old Parliament House. This is Paul's side of politicts.

According to articles in The Sydney Morning Herald and
other newspapers, as well as TV News channels -

"Protesters have been occupying the heritage building's
steps and forecourt over the past fortnight. They include
well-known influencers from the "freedom movement" who
oppose vaccine mandates and lockdowns, as well as people
claiming to be sovereign citizens who believe federal and
state governments are invalid."

We're told that:

"These behaviours do not represent the Aboriginal community
here and it doesn't reflect the vision and families that
have held the space at the Aboriginal Tent Embassy for
almost 50 years.