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The Forum > General Discussion > How To Vote - Informal

How To Vote - Informal

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I have never intentionally voted informal in my life, believing it is a "duty" to have ones say as part of the democratic process. In Federal elections one must preference all candidates in order to cast a formal vote. In 95% of the electorates for the House of Representatives that means, regardless if you vote for a minor party or independent the vote ends up in the pile for one or the other of the big two, Labor or the Coalition, the two party preferred system. Considering the performance of the Coalition government since the last election, and given the mediocracy of the Labor opposition, I don't much fancy either forming a government. At the local level the LNP incumbent is lacking and I would rate his performance as ordinary, not knowing his Labor opponent I don't fancy either as my representative in Canberra. I may simply vote "1" for a minor party candidate, most likely Greens and nothing else, making my vote informal.

Is there anyone else who feels they should vote that way?
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 1:51:33 PM
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Paul1405 is suggesting that because it's in line with his insidious agenda. It's like with the Census, the insidious suggest not to bother ticking your religion but what that actually does is give the insidious power because they mark theirs.
Informal voting is actually worse than voting for the party one doesn't favour !
Informal voting is akin to treason ! People should not be permitted to promote it, they should be fined.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 5:31:08 PM
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Hi Paul,

I've never voted informally. I prefer to vote for the
party whose policies I like and think will benefit
me, and my family, and the country in general.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 6:44:34 PM
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individual

I’m incensed. My intelligence is insulted by your condemnation of informal voters.

I’m one. And it gives me a huge sense of power in the moment, tearing up a ballot paper.
It screams “ I am not responsible for the criminals at the top”.

Now..if it were voting with a bullet, I would not vote informal at all.

I long ago learned, bullets have much power: A piece of ridiculous voting paper is worthless under current conditions we quaintly call duopoly.

Also under the rule of bullets, we always get a much tougher and pragmatic leadership.
There is plenty of evidence for that one. ISIS for example. Now that is voting power, like it or not, it works!

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 7:00:11 PM
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diver dan,
I'm certain that you wouldn't be incensed if you read & digested again what I meant !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 11:18:31 PM
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Dear Paul,

I feel like you, the existing electoral-system is very wrong, but one ought to act rationally rather than based on emotions.

One way is to throw a coin to determine who goes last and who goes second-last.

A better way is to list the most important policies that matter to you personally, then go down that list until you find some difference between Tweedledum and Tweedledee, even if it is the 20th on your list, then vote accordingly.

Better still, since the policies that are most personally important to me are far from being on the parties' established agenda, I lobby both parties asking them whether they will enact my policy if I vote for them.

In my case, it is important for me to be able to pay for my COVID vaccines.

I already asked the Liberal government, but they outright refused to allow me to pay for my "free" vaccines.
Now I will lobby Labor: if they accept and provide me with a way to refund the tax-payer for my vaccines, then they will have the preferences of me and my friends.

I will let you know the outcome, so if you agree with me that those who so-wish ought to be able to pay for their own vaccines and Labor accepts it, then I hope you preference them too.

---

Dear Individual,

«Informal voting is akin to treason !»

Had that been the case, it would sound like a great opportunity!

I wouldn't condone Diver Dan's violent methods, but if I can help topple the regime by non-violent means, like Mahatma Gandhi, then I am all for it. But alas, I cannot see how voting informal can help: far better to vote formally for small anti-establishment parties.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 13 October 2021 11:48:19 PM
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Paul, WTF is wrong with you? Our electoral system is quite possibly the best in the world, so why do you want to waste your vote? Even if you see no policy difference between the government and opposition, you can still vote against the government to punish them for rorting (for example).
Posted by Aidan, Thursday, 14 October 2021 12:30:53 AM
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from the bottom up,

Aidan, WTF is wrong with me, nothing. Put simply I believe our voting system can be improved by allowing optional preferential voting. The voter should be give the option in federal elections, as in state elections, to choose a one only candidate, or a partial list of candidates, or the entire list in order of preference. What's wrong with that.

Yuyutsu, if paying for vaccination is the overriding consideration that determines your vote, then you should be able to vote only for candidates that support a "pay for vaccination" policy. The problem with the party system is although the local candidate may personally agree with you, he or she is bound by party policy.

Indy, there is no legal requirement to cast a formal vote, what is required is you must simply present and have your name "crossed off" and place the ballot paper in the box provided. Do that you have completed your obligation. You are given the opportunity to vote nothing more. How you exercise that opportunity is up to you.

DD, I'm a pacifist so I really can't go along with the bullet idea.

Foxy, again I am in the same boat as you, totally agree. The problem is I don't think at the moment the Coalition or Labor are up to the task of government, so why ultimately vote for either. Both the informal vote and minor party/independent vote has been growing at recent elections. I think there is a general dissatisfaction with the major parties. On the leadership for me Morrison is nothing more than a smoke and mirrors man, and Albanese is the worse Labor opposition leader since Arthur Calwell, Arthur was so bad someone tried to give him a DD style vote with a bullet.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 14 October 2021 5:11:51 AM
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I'm a pacifist
Paul1405,
If you're a pacifist then I'd qualify as a Saint !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 14 October 2021 6:35:52 AM
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individual

*… Informal voting is akin to treason ! People should not be permitted to promote it, they should be fined...*

What is there to misunderstand about your straightforward comment above?

You don’t accept any positives from voting informal. Seems to me the meaning behind what you were saying.

If that is your position, then I don’t agree with it; as I said in my reply.

There are worse things than voting informal, and thank the good Lord for ICAC.

Now the ICAC broom is sweeping away the criminals in SA parliament.
Can’t you see how your vote actually facilitates administrative crime.

The criminal activity at the Local Government level, is overseen by their State partners in crime.
For the minuscule worth of a vote, why not simply install the Mafia ( which I have no doubt are already imbedded), and remove the facades of the booth.

An informal vote is a protest against high level criminal activity, which is destroying the fabric of our once reliable and trustworthy Governments

Dan.

Dan
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 14 October 2021 7:27:52 AM
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Paul, that belief is one thing, but it doesn't justify throwing away your vote.

As for whether OPV would be better, maybe it would and maybe it wouldn't. But I expect it would adversely affect your favoured party most. Have you checked to see whether there are any significant differences in the Greens' vote at State and Federal level?
Posted by Aidan, Thursday, 14 October 2021 7:54:50 AM
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I like the Australian ballot. I do my best to find what the different candidates stand for and list them in order of preference. The candidate I put 1 rarely gets it. However, I think it is better than first past the post ballots. If I found no difference among the candidates I would vote informal. I have always found a difference.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 14 October 2021 8:33:59 AM
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Hi Paul,

It's going to be interesting what happens prior
to the next election and what policies are prioritized.
At the moment I think many voters are waiting before
deciding. As far as Labor is concerned - Shorten was
not popular and Albanese is more careful. He plays the
issues not the man, which is a positive trait. Scott
Morrison is still very much in the running. But he'd
better do more - miracles don't often happen twice.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 14 October 2021 9:05:06 AM
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Paul,
I generally agree with you but one small point, there is a legal obligation to actually vote, intentional informal voting is not legal but there is no way of catching an offender where the secret ballot applies; you’re safe.(*~*) (how’s that for improvisation?).
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 14 October 2021 9:59:21 AM
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Dear Paul,

«if paying for vaccination is the overriding consideration that determines your vote»

Vaccination is only the tip of the iceberg.

The moral issue is of turning everyone into thieves (and/or robbers) through accepting, or benefiting from tax-payer's money, taken, in part at least, against the owners' consent or by coercion. In fact, since government is in a huge debt, this is money yet to be robbed of future generations, before they were even born to be asked whether or not they consent.

In most cases this can be avoided: I do not apply for pensions, payments, refunds or subsidies; I pay doctors and for other medical tests and procedures directly in cash, never giving them my Medicare number; I also do not declare deductions and rebates on my tax-return to avoid a tax refund.

Having a "private" health insurance is a sore issue, because health funds pay only the gap, taking the rest from Medicare. I checked and found that they are legally obliged to do so even if I wish to pay the Medicare portion out of pocket, and also that Medicare would never accept its unwanted money back. I have therefore quit my Australian health insurance and instead took an international health insurance policy from an overseas company that is not bound by Australian law. It costs more and provides only for medical expenses in access of US$15,000 p.a., but it does provide me peace of mind.

COVID vaccines are an exception, because of their urgent importance and because currently the only legal way to obtain them is from government. We are not allowed to import them or even to travel overseas in order to get vaccinated there.

As such, I expect the decent thing would be to allow me to refund the supplier, government, for their vaccine and vaccination costs, but alas, the current government would not allow me. I'll still pay them anyway by inventing some extra "income" in my next tax-return, but I would like to do it legally and I'll vote for an alternative government which will allow me to do so.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 14 October 2021 1:43:48 PM
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Paul we agree at last, neither major deserves to be elected if only for their immigration policies. However I don't vote informal. As we are going to get one or other, I put the worst last.

At the top I choes the one I would vote for if we had first past the post, & vote for them. At least I direct my election payment to the party of my choice, which may just help them improve their chances, or even influence in the preference buying ballot that effects the majors policies to some extent.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 14 October 2021 3:46:50 PM
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If people elected to work with the Govt rather than go against it at every turn, much more transparency would result. Most the mismanagement doesn't actually come from the "Govt" as such. It comes from people working within the the bureaucracy of the Public Service who aren't doing what they were hired for. One senior MP told me that more than 90% of his time goes into chasing up on complaints from people about Public Servant bureaucrats.
If people want to cut wastage & make our society better than they should focus on the Public Service Union. There are many Public servants who perform & no criticism is towards them.
It's those who spend their working hours justifying their position & salary instead of doing their job who are the real problem for which Govt then gets the blame.
Posted by individual, Friday, 15 October 2021 2:09:57 AM
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Hi Indy,

In any large organisation be it public or private, you are going to get the whole range of people, from the competent to the incomperdent, and all those in between. The public service is no different to other large institutions I have worked for, incomperdence cased by both the bureaucratic nature of the organisation, right down to outright laziness and inability on the part of some employees.

Parliamentarians fall into the same category, as do ministers, some are extremely competent in their portfolio, others less so. Take one look at the Morrison ministry, some are "good at the job" others are incomperdent , and they are the ones targeted by the opposition.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 15 October 2021 5:19:16 AM
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Pauliar,

No one is fruity enough for the resident troll to vote for?
Posted by shadowminister, Friday, 15 October 2021 7:22:24 AM
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Paul1405,
Yes, but my point is that this symbiosis among too many bureaucrats needs the rest of us to put a stop to !
Posted by individual, Friday, 15 October 2021 7:29:56 AM
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shonkyminister, you are the forums resident troll, calling me and others paedophiles, see your deleted posts, its a subject you have a fixation with. Just as you are banging on in support of Archy Pell, he like a swag of similar turds, are your kinda of people. Other Forumites have expressed their concern as to what person you actually are.

I'm sure you have no problems casting a vote, given the likes of Bonking Barney, having sex with a young stall member, and Cry Baby Porter, accused of raping a 16 year old girl, to name but two, are at the top of the list of your preferred MP's.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 15 October 2021 8:41:59 AM
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Does anyone else like the new NSW Premier -
Dominic Perrottet? I think he's doing a great job thus far.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 15 October 2021 8:56:02 AM
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Crybaby Pauliar,

I have clearly stated that not all greens are paedophiles and most of the offence you have taken is due to your illiteracy.

On top of that, you have freely admitted to making stuff up to annoy people which is the definition of a troll. And finally, nearly everything you post is a deliberate lie.

You are a grub and a troll.
Posted by shadowminister, Friday, 15 October 2021 9:34:16 AM
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"You are a grub and a troll," he said
While sitting quietly in his bed
If only he'd take his blinkers off
Perhaps he'd find something else to scoff
If he'd only venture out he'd see
Sometimes its best to just let things be.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 15 October 2021 10:22:34 AM
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SM, you called a NSW Greens MP a paedophile by name, your post was delegated by the moderator 15/8/2021 (deleted defamatory) not the first time, as was the post that made a similar acquisition against me, after which you changed your nick to avoid suspension. Put that up on Facebook or Twitter you would have been prosecuted for what you are, a disgusting TROLL. We had a big storm in Brisbane, it washed a lot of turds down the drain, where are you now? Say no more.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 15 October 2021 11:30:58 AM
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accusation.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 15 October 2021 11:43:31 AM
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Foxy he is all for increasing migration above pre Covid rates.

He has to go.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 15 October 2021 3:15:40 PM
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Just saw this;

"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from people who produce nothing-When you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favours-When you see that people get richer by graft & pull than by work, & your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you-When you corruption being rewarded & honesty becoming a self-scarifice-You may know that your society is doomed"
Ayn Rand, 1957
Posted by individual, Friday, 15 October 2021 4:34:59 PM
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Pauliar, piece of crap.

You lie and defame people all the time and have the ethics of a sewer rat. I wonder if you learnt that in jail.
Posted by shadowminister, Saturday, 16 October 2021 3:54:21 AM
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SM, what, are you claiming you didn't have a post deleted 15/8/2021 for deformation? Am I lying? I won't repeat the name of the person you defamed by calling them a paedophile, his children may read it. I can't defame you, last time I checked you can't defame a sewer rat!
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 16 October 2021 5:50:24 AM
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Dear Hassie,

You said that the NSW Premier Dominic Perrottet
has to go because he's for increasing migration.

I think he's doing what he thinks is best for his
state and the nation. He wants to have a discussion
with the Prime Minister because as he explained:

"We're going to have a real discussion about catching
up. Some of those numbers that we've lost during this
pandemic."

Mr Perrottet was merely echoing calls from business
groups and aged care and hospital service providers who
say they are desperate for staff.

The Australian Financial Review points out that migration
is vital for business and the economy. But some people
don't like hearing the message. The facts is that
without skilled labour many of Australia's biggest
infrastructure and nation building projects will move
offshore.

Don't forget even before the pandemic we've had growing
skills shortages as our population ages and millions
head into retirement.

Perrottet's stance makes sense.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 16 October 2021 8:50:18 AM
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Pauliar are you a complete idiot.

No, I never had a post deleted for deformation.

Did you learn your spelling in jail? as you are a guttersnipe I can't defame you either. You are the scum of the earth and represent the idiot pedogreens to a Tee.
Posted by shadowminister, Saturday, 16 October 2021 11:20:55 AM
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SM,

This is you turkey!

[Deleted. Defamatory.]
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 15 August 2021 12:29:38 PM

You extreme Nazis carry on with crap like that.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 16 October 2021 6:13:00 PM
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Pauliar,

Here's you, you foul-mouthed, nazi, moronic piece of crap.

6/04/2021 9:04:18 AM [Deleted for obscenity].....
19/03/2019 6:26:39 AM [Deleted for defamation. Poster has been suspended for a month.].....
8/09/2018 9:55:40 PM [Deleted for abuse.].....
8/09/2018 5:03:05 PM [Deleted for abuse.].....
8/09/2018 4:15:54 PM [Deleted for abuse.].....
8/09/2018 3:03:11 PM [Deleted for abuse]...
12/09/2017 7:45:39 PM [Deleted for abuse.].....
27/07/2015 9:05:44 PM [Deleted for abuse.].....
1/01/2015 12:38:58 PM [Deleted for abuse.].....
1/01/2015 11:10:00 AM [Deleted for abuse.].....
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 17 October 2021 4:03:21 AM
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SM,

Are they all deletions of yours? You haven't supplied names attached.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 17 October 2021 5:03:06 AM
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Pauliar,

Suffering from amnesia are you. All these deletions are yours including the defamatory one.

Moron
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 17 October 2021 5:29:07 AM
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The most diplomatic way I can put this is that informal voting will give those whom we don't want to take over this Nation, the ability to do so !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 17 October 2021 7:23:10 AM
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shadow minister,

It appears that you really have too much time on
your hands if you can bother to go through someone's
posting record. All you had to do is walk away.
Still I guess that's what makes this forum interesting.
There's so much provocation and so many passionate
responses. However we all need to learn when to let go
And not over-step the line.
It's d one thing to say things in jest quite another
to overstep the line and become nasty. Sometimes quid pro
quo has a bad effect.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 October 2021 12:25:44 PM
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Hi Paul,

Walk away, please?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 October 2021 12:26:42 PM
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Foxy,

It took only about 2 mins to expose Pauliar as a nasty and hypocritical fraud. With all his nastiness and outright lies, it surprises me how frequently you leap to his defence.

I am perfectly happy to play nicely, but find it difficult to walk away from direct attacks.
Posted by shadowminister, Sunday, 17 October 2021 2:40:44 PM
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shadow minister,

You'll never know what the results could be until you
or Paul gives it a try.

The results may surprise you both.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 October 2021 5:31:09 PM
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Hi Foxy,

Yes, an anonymous hypocrite who rightly signs his post "Moron" should be ignored. Defends Pell on a legal point, but a couple of months back called a decent chap, known to me, a NSW Greens MP, a paedophile on this very forum. Oh! the moderator deleted it, how terrible. As it was said to me, we can't be bothered with far right anonymous names callers, on a non descript forum. I should do likewise.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 17 October 2021 7:11:00 PM
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Dear Paul,

I know it's hard to ignore personal attacks.
Words can and do hurt. However, when you know
that a person is out to provoke you it's best
to not give them a platform. They want you to respond.
As the old adage says - "Don't feed the trolls."
Anyway, I also know that this doesn't always work.
Sometimes you do have to respond. But Thanks for
listening. I'll have to learn to take my own advice.
(smile).
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 October 2021 8:53:47 PM
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cont'd ...

Dear Paul,

You might appreciate this. I found it on the web.
It's for people who tell you that you're not
"their cup of tea."

Well I don't drink tea
I drink COFFEE

SO

Shuh
Duh
Fuh
CUP!

I thought it funny.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 17 October 2021 9:00:02 PM
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Pauliar,

You are also anonymous, you are a troll that happy lies and defames people continuously. You are a twisted embittered old extremist nazi who can't string a coherent sentence together.

If you stop lying about me I will leave you alone.
Posted by shadowminister, Monday, 18 October 2021 2:10:19 AM
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Thanks Foxy, that's a good one.

Shonky, did you wake up in the middle of the night to post that. Monday, 18 October 2021 2:10:19 AM. I have never posted a lie about you, you are being delusional.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 18 October 2021 5:37:23 AM
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shadowminister, hence forth I shall extend to you the olive branch of Forum friendship. I shall not refer to your past peccadillos on the forum, nor will I refer to you in disparaging terms such as shonkyminister, nah from now on you are shadowminister or simply SM. Of course in return I expert the same courtesy. (figuratively) I invite you to sign the armistice at the 11th hour of the 11th day, of the 11th month in my railway carriage in the forest.

Peace be with you.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 18 October 2021 6:26:00 AM
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shadow minister,

You can't turn that offer down.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 18 October 2021 8:33:50 AM
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Back to the topic.

I've worked on several elections as an electoral officer and last time around as a supervisor at the count of a nearby electoral division.

You shouldn't assume that the idea of voting 1 and leaving everything else blank is a protest vote. The process is that all votes are initially scanned for legitimacy. That is the vote is checked that all boxes are filled. So if, for example, there are 5 candidates, all five boxes have to be filled 1 through 5. If not, the vote immediately goes into an informal pile. If you vote [1] Greens and then level the rest blank, the vote doesn't ever get allocated to the Greens. No one cares who the vote was for....its informal and that's all that matters.

There are no official figures about where informal votes appeared to be for. So its not a protest vote, its a non-vote.

Additionally, remember that most candidates get some reimbursement from the treasury for each vote they get. Each ELIGIBLE vote earns the party about $2.80. An informal vote is not counted in this.

So voting as Paul suggested in the opening post would actually penalise the Greens, which I personally think is a good thing but probably isn't Paul's aim.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 18 October 2021 8:40:04 AM
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BTW: The Liberals should dump the Nationals.
Many Liberal supporters that I've spoken to
recently are talking about withdrawing their
support after this latest head-butting. Barnaby
Joyce is looking really awful and imagine having
him ad Deputy PM? Get rid of the Nats!
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 18 October 2021 8:43:00 AM
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Dear mhaze,

Thanks for that. It should give voters something to
think about. I've never voted informally - I believe
in making my vote count. But those that are tempted
really should re-consider.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 18 October 2021 9:03:38 AM
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Dear Mhaze,

«There are no official figures about where informal votes appeared to be for.»

Right, no OFFICIAL figures of course, but there ARE figures, even if no human counts them, God sees to the heart!

I don't vote informal myself, but it can be a painful moral dilemma to think later on that "it was me who brought that evil person to power", even if you consider them to be the lesser evil, it was your hand which held the pen or pencil which brought on their ascent.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 18 October 2021 9:42:41 AM
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We'd have better Govt & better public services if Public Servants weren't allowed to vote !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 19 October 2021 9:51:15 PM
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Hi Yuyutsu,

Generally with a high informal vote the Labor vote is down. In England non compulsory voting conducted on a working day also impacts the Labour vote there, as does wet weather, and they have a lot of that. In the US non compulsory voting favours the Republicans. Australia introduced compulsory voting in 1924, the 1922 vote was at around 70%. Australia is one of the few countries that enforces compulsory voting. They say the big winner in American Presidential elections is the bloke no one votes for.

Hi Indy,

Do you also favour aged welfare folk being denied the vote. Yep, they'll be to busy digging ditches, and mending roads in our Seniors National Service, to worry about voting, remember our (new) motto; "TOTE THAT BARGE, LIFE THAT PALE" while you sing 'Old Man River' how inspiring, remember "Work sets you free".
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 20 October 2021 5:56:07 AM
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Do you also favour aged welfare folk being denied the vote.
Paul1405,
Yes, anyone who is paid from Public coffers ! Only those who actually produce goods & services i.e. wealth for the nation, should be voting !
If it weren't for so many overpaid & overrated goods/services, there'd be enough capital to distribute for Nation-building infrastructure. if people earn enough to pay for for goods & services, they'll pay for what they want/need. Presently, far too much funding is handed to irresponsible projects by irresponsible & negligent bureaucrats.
The whole psyche has to change if people want a better outcome.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 20 October 2021 6:33:29 AM
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Dear Paul,

I do not consider mandatory voting in terms of which party could win or lose as a result: forcing people to do things, making it a crime even to remain home in bed, is a shameful and unacceptable abuse. Mandatory voting is the young cousin of conscription.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 20 October 2021 12:37:24 PM
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forcing people to do things,
Yuyutsu,
Forcing is vastly different to reminding people to do their duty of cooperation !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 24 October 2021 7:14:42 AM
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Yuyutso,
People demand the right to be in this symbiosis called society but they don't believe in the responsibilities & restraints associated with it !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 24 October 2021 7:17:56 AM
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Dear Individual,

«Forcing is vastly different to reminding people to do their duty of cooperation !»

Right - just what China is telling the Uyghurs!

«People demand the right to be in this symbiosis called society»

"CALLED", this is the key word here!

Symbiosis between the wolf and the lamb.

The wolf deciding that their society includes the lamb, or for that matter any weaker creature in "their" valley - when had the lamb any choice over who should be their partners in society?

I prefer an honest lion over a cunning wolf who not only eats us but also tries to make mockery of our intelligence.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 24 October 2021 9:08:58 AM
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Yuyutsu,
The Wolf being greedy & the Lamb being greedy ! However, it's the lamb that bleats !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 24 October 2021 7:58:32 PM
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