Water shortages on the forecast from now on, a crisis that appears to fade out of view because we just turn on a tap_we dont NEED to wait for the rain to fill up our tanks here in the city..., does it appear to others that this problem is being ignored_people are still wasting good fresh water without considering the urgency _that it is now time to look at the water use in our colleges/schools/homes/buisiness's with an eagle eye.. Does any_one notice that generally we are going on in the same way we did last year, as far as water conservation goes when does the big crunch come?

This FRESH water you're talking about is not even worth saving, it is pure poison to feed us,animals and vegies.It is criminal to medicate the population with a hormone precursers and teeth strenghteners not to forget an Altzheimers activator.
What must happen here in Australia:Fluoride decision makers must be taken to The International Court in The Haque to answer their crimes to humanity.(as will happen in the US: see http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/79326.php )
What the government is counting on is that the poison is numbing our brains so we won't resist, as happened in WW2 concentration camps in Germany and Russia.

effnc:"What must happen here in Australia:Fluoride decision makers must be taken to The International Court in The Haque to answer their crimes to humanity.(as will happen in the US: see http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/79326.php )
What the government is counting on is that the poison is numbing our brains so we won't resist, as happened in WW2 concentration camps in Germany and Russia."

Cripes.

I'll put this one down to the lunar eclipse as well.

The sad thing cj is that eftfnc is the chief adviser on water fluoridation in Queensland while obituaries are being written for fluoridation champions in other states. Take all those responsible for fluoridation who are still living to an international court by all means, but first let eftfnc and supporters pay for all pain, suffering and expense as a result of no fluoridation......

Why all this silliness about precious water anyhow. To me it's just a con by Malcolm and his pals to sell the output of desalination and recycling plants to a conditioned public (water costs of $3 to $4 per kilolitre are needed to make these schemes viable). Water tanks could foil them for a bit until mass immigration creates extreme supply problems, so expect hefty domestic catchment taxes to discourage any would be anarchists in the meantime.

CJ: 'I'll put this one down to the lunar eclipse as well.'

Ah,so you believe in organic farming by the moon as well...what a surprise:-)

Fester: Only an effen moron can think of an answer like yours.
I lived with fluoridated water for 21yrs and lost all my teeth because of it,then when Darwin got fluoridated in the early seventees (probably before your birthdate)I started to develop all imaginary health problems under the sun until I switched to pure spring water.So know what you talk about before any stupid answers and no I do not work for any water people.

YES ALL VERY INTERESTING
AND OUR WATER HERE IN ADELAIDE HAPPENS TO BE THE NASTIEST OF ALL , THER WAS EVEN A SONG WRITTEN ABOUT OUR TAP WATER DOWN HERE'CRAP ON THE TAP'
STILL, WITH SO LITTLE WATER ITS IMPORTANT WE USE IT SPARINGLY SO'S THAT WE CAN STILL USE WATER FOR ALL OF THE THINGS WE CHOOSE TO-BE IT SPARINGLY.
iM CURIOUS ABOUT THE FLOURIDATION DEBATE THOUGH, MY SISTER WHO'S PRETTY MUCH AN ENVIRONMENTALIST AND REASONABLY HEALTH INFORMED, BELIEVES THE FLOURIDATION OF WATER IS A GOOD THING, SHE HAS EVEN USED EXAMPLES OF YOUNG CHILDRENS TEETH TO PROVE EXAMPLES. mABYE YOUR TEETH DIDDNT GET ENOUGH FLOURIDE FROM AN EARLY AGE, I BELIEVE THIS IS WHEN THE MOST DAMAGE TO THE TEETH OCCURS.

There is probably a happy medium with fluoridisation of water. I grew up in the country so lived off rainwater. However when I ws young it was trendy to give flouride supplements to promote dental health, so I was given these. I have mild dental fluorosis as a result, and had my first filling when I was 28. My youngest sister wasnt given supplements (had gone out of fashion by then) - she has perfectly white and wonderfully straight teeth, but had had 11 fillings by the age of 11. She continually has dental problems associated with decay. I am not sure who is better off... Perhaps if levels were reduced from what is currently considered acceptable we might have a little more decay, but a reduction in the problems associated with fluoride.

Countrygal,

I was also given fluoride supplementation as a child (no fluorosis, fortunately) and I have had one filling in my 4+ decades of life. None of my children (ages 15 - 20) have any fillings (despite all being sweet-toothed) and I put this down to our encouraging them to drink fluoridated tapwater. Plus, good dental hygiene,of course.

eftfnc,

The fact that you say you "started to develop all imaginary health problems under the sun until I switched to pure spring water" pretty much sums up my thoughts on your experiences. The correlation between fluoridation and the loss of your teeth is also "imaginary", I would think.

To return to the topic, I agree with mariah that wasting water is still far too common, despite excellent progress being made in some cities. Brisbane springs to mind as a city that has made quite remarkable reductions in water usage.

Certainly, those of us who live in the bush find it hard to imagine how profligate some (mostly urban) people have been until very recently with respect to water.

Off-topic, but I've always been intrigued by the impassioned, often irrational opposition by many country people to the fluoridation of drinking water. I first encountered it from a League of Rights type I worked for on a farm in the early 1970s.

It's quite striking to note the number of people in our area who have obviously missing teeth. I suppose it's a combination of no dentists, no fluoride and poor diets, but I've always wondered why people are so anti-fluoride in rural areas, compared with city dwellers - among whom I haven't noticed an epidemic of cretinism.

CJ Morgan
not sure about the absence of cretinism in our cities, but is this in comparison to cretinism in the country? anyway i thought it was IODINE deficiency that caused cretinism? correct mr if im wrong.
back to water morgan you are spot on regarding city folk having no idea about the preciousness of it_except its starting to rise in cost ,wich is proberly the only way to manage city cretins. I lived 'bush' traveling anfd such around our country, one cant help but notice how DRY it really is , and how things have drastically changed since WHITE man arrived. I particularily feel for all the well meaning 1st settlers who had a go at the unattainable out in the sticks, passing all those humble homes with scant remains of once loved gardens is a reality bump regarding our arid land.
Well i really wanted to support your point regarding CITY folks use of water with two points.
1: International students who run water freely in share house arrangements as they get about their watery needs, they have no inkling of how we do it here.(i spent 10 months sharing as such 9n sydney with 9 others)
and
.. when my niece comes from Byron Bay to stay, she is shocked by the water waste in our city.The Byron is a very alternative minded region, and many communities do NOT have mains water.

eftfnc

Your attribution of your tooth loss goes against the evidence, which suggests a substantial reduction in tooth decay in populations with water fluoridation. I believe that people moving from fluoridated to unfluoridated areas also suffer spikes in dental decay.

But I dont blame you for condemning fluoride on a gut feeling. It is a powerful motivation, but something to be wary of in scientific testing. Hence things like double blind clinical trials and a reliance on objective measurements.

I wish gut feelings were more accurate, then people in unfluoridated areas would realise that the lack of this element in the water was responsible for over a third of their dental decay.

I wasn't serious when I suggested that you determine Queensland's water policy, but I suspect that similar methods of reasoning are used.

Good health!

The state of your teeth and the future growth, decay and problems that will occur is greatly attributed to genetics. Sorry to burst the bubble but you could have a town of 100 and every second person will give you their hell stories and what they believe contributed to their hell. The person next door will have white pristine teeth and have no idea why.

I was born in country further north than the compass goes. I had creek water and no flouride. My teeth have never been cheap to keep and I would be foolish not to believe that my ancestors diet, resulting evolution and genetics weren't partially responsible.

If we are a presently evolving species which can be proven, then maybe just maybe our bodies will evolve to deal with the world that is physically changing around us.

Water use is an important part of modern lifestyles, to reduce access to water is to reduce living standards. The goal of a modern society should be to increase the living standards of its people.

There is no real shortage of water on Earth, most of our surface is water. Water supply is ultimately an issue of energy supply to desalinate salt water.

With adequate energy there is no water supply issues in urban, coastal Australia.

The water supply issue come down to the cost of power generation, both tangible (economic) and non-tangible (environmental).

Tristan the issue should be not whether we have a finite or infinite supply of water but more to the point of should we abuse our usuage just because we can.

You are incorrect with your theories concerning water supply and population balance. If all 1st world countries developed desalinisation plants this would create more problems of sodium storage, more water usuage less oceans to cope with it. Oceans provide the ability of oxygen not trees, so if it was a free for all, our world would be stripped bare more quickly than the rate of depletion is now.

Why are people becoming so easily lured by taking each generation has to pay for the last ones mistakes. You take and what happens in 50 years time?

A couple of things come to mind here. Firstly, this old continent of ours is a very arid place. Most of the ever increasing population is concentrated in the 'green fringe' around our coastal areas. Continuing to pump more and more people into these areas is unsustainable in the long term.

Secondly, where does city water come from? It comes from streams generated in hills well outside the cities, but unlike many other countries, our rainfall is limited and we have a minimal river system, so the bigger our cities and major centers get, the less water for everybody. The Government's push to appease big business by allowing unfettered population expansion will eventually be to the detriment of all Australians.

Thirdly, I was led to believe that businesses, especially large ones, use up to 70% of available drinking water which is then flushed down the drain. Since most of this industry/business is centered in major towns and cities, maybe the "city waste" is really a reflection of poor industry standards, although through necessity, that is slowly changing.

Don't know how the subject turned to fluoridation, but I'm with Cardine on this one. My sister, mid 60's, has beautiful teeth. We grew up on a farm with tank water and plenty of milk. Myself.....teeth shot to hell by age four. Second teeth came through riddled with cavities. I couldn't eat anything cold, I couldn't chew peanuts and I wasn't allowed lollies. The difference is genetic! My sister and I had different fathers. Apparently, my sisters father also had excellent teeth.

Just for the record, I believe we should look beyond the dental issue in relation to fluoride. Shouldn't the issue be about big business disposing of it's waste into our drinking water? And if it's not, then how about the majority of people being represented by their Government? If most people don't want it, then why should they be forced to take drink medicated water? It's more about their elected representatives not doing their jobs, which is sadly becoming a fixture of Australian politics.

Value is determined by scarcity. There is no scarcity of water.

I don't think you appreciate the amount of water on Earth. It is a resource we are at no risk of depleting. It is a fully recyclable and renewable resource. The only place it could disappear to is into space and thats not happening.

There is an energy cost that will always generate scarcity and hence value of fresh water.

Why should value be artificially distorted on a resource that raises living standards? The price value and the use of water should reflect its scarcity, which is the cost of energy.

Efficiency of use is not to be disregarded, but the reality is that there is plenty more where it came from, and no scarcity exists aside from the costs of energy which should be sole determination of its value. (plus piping, desal construction, maintenance, admin etc costs)

Tristan, I don't know what planet you're living on, but on Earth the availability of both fresh water and energy are becoming increasingly scarce.

Yes, there's heaps of water in the oceans, but the energy costs of large scale desalination in environmental and economic terms are currently unsustainable - and all the available evidence suggests that this situation is going to get worse, not better.

Have you actually done any reading on this, or are you just talking through your arse?

thanks Cj M.
still it s all a grand argument
my thoughts are _sure there is alot of water and 2/3 of that is fetid or near to.
also would you throw your dinner to the chooks and eat the scraps
thats kind of what we are doing when we use any water other than grey to wash our clothes, water the garden and etc etc,we have to pretty much flouridate all of our water down south here if its going through miles of murky pipes as overnight etc when there is no flow things stew and id be scared to think of what might be happening then. Down south here we dont actually drink the tap water(we have home filtration) come down here and try it and youd know why,_ and yes its like gulping over chlorinated swimming pool water. That dosent mean we ought be flushing it down the loo or watering the lawn with it though_its been through one hell of a journey B4 we get it , down south here we need to be more careful than we are ,not JUST households, Factories, newspaper printers,etc,.
Any way to get of the subject a little , did any one see the waterless washing mashine at the Powerhouse Design Show last year? good idea except it probably uses alot of ENERGY? i dont know, does anyone know about waterless washing machines? washing uses alot of fresh water in our super civilised city here.

Droughts perpetuate droughts.Less evaporation from the ground creates less clouds meaning less rain. The more HEALTHY water we use for our gardens and trees the more green groundcover and "slow release" evaporation is establishing the cycle. So to use our medicated tapwater is medicating and killing our ground flora therefore killing ourselves in the long run because all life starts in the top 10cm of our topsoil.
As far as Fluoride (as a natural element) is concerned it is represented in almost all countries' natural waters.We do NOT have natural fluoride in our tapwater ADDED, it is coming straight from aluminium smelters and fertilizer production and is called fluorolisic acid amongs other fancy names.Factories cannot get rid of this poison by flushing down the drain like they used to.Do some research on this stuff,it is widely made available.
The old excuse of "it's in my/your genes" comes from big business avoiding litigation and should read instead:"The poison we make and let you have thru your food and drinks is altering your genes,anyone for a bite/drink?"

effnic
you sound informed, though im sure i have heard(somewhere) that flouride IS added to our water, that it is NO accident or waste by product.

Do you have any suggestions regarding new ideas to improve water use in our country.
New ideas ?
Do you thinkk reusing grey water for gardens and washing cars etc is a reasonable ,energy efficient option for Australians?

Just a thought after reading this thread and no intention of side tracking, but has anyone pondered that the de-salination plant in Sydney will de drawing water in close proximity (in relative terms) to the sewer outlets from the Sydney sewers?

Recycling waste effluent water would be sensible, if it could be done without using alot of ENERGY it’s probably a good idea, it would mean that we (humans) get to re-clean the waste water that we already dump into the coastline thus affecting /ruining the coastline.
At least that’s what I understand as being the truthful outcome of our effluent water that goes into the ocean; in any marine area it has a negative outcome, therefore the higher the population the more concern...
And, hey, are not many countries already recycling their waste' effluent' water? That IS ALOT of water every day consistently. Down here in S.A (Adelaide ,city) there has been debate about sending out the effluent waste to 'Malalla' for market gardens,(of course there would be some type of processing the 'product' waste so's that hygiene and science concerns are met. To me this makes a lot of sense as I have witnessed communities use their drop dunny holes to grow trees in, or and at least just feed the ground. Of course on a town and city scale this must be managed properly so that all health concerns are monitored scientifically.