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The Forum > General Discussion > 2500 years ago

2500 years ago

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Just to cover some of the points raised:

Was Athens a democracy? It depends on how you look at it and what criteria you want to use. If you say that it wasn’t as inclusive as our democracy (eg women has no say) and therefore it wasn’t a democracy, that’s one take. But by that standard, Whitlam wasn’t democratically elected since the 1972 vote excluded 18-21 yr olds. The word means rule by the demos ie the people, the citizenry. By that standard it was a democracy since all Athenian citizens had a say, or at least the right to a say in all decisions. By the standards of the time, where the entire planet was either a monarchy or ruled by ‘the few’, Athens was revolutionary.

Was it the first democracy? I’m agnostic on that. It’s possible others existed before it although I think the evidence is a long way from convincing and more a case of people thinking it exists because they want it to exist. Again, it was the first in Europe and, more importantly, one of the influences on those societies that created modern democracy. Not the main influence, mind you. That was Rome which heavily influenced the US founders. Hence words like ‘Senate’ . But the legacy the Athenian democracy bequeathed was the view that the people can and should control their own fate, and the legacy of 480BC is that a free people fighting for their freedom will prevail over those fighting for a ruler.
But the bequest of Athens is not its democracy which in the end failed. It’s the art, literature, architecture, philosophy, science, history. But most importantly, it’s the notion of the individual who has inherent purpose but who also has obligations to the state and society in general.
Might I also suggest a reading of Pericles’ Funeral Oration. A great speech in and of itself recorded by Thucydides. It is suggested it was the inspiration for Lincoln’s Gettysburg address:
http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/education/thucydides.html
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 8:54:22 AM
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Just because I find it interesting:

On or around 7 September 480BC, the Spartan king Leonidas and a relatively small army blocked the Persian advance at the narrow pass at Thermopylae.

Eventually they were betrayed by a Greek named Ephialtes (or maybe Epialtes) who showed the Persians a path around the blocked pass. The end result was the famous stand of the 300 Spartans and 700 Thespians.

Ephialtes was reviled at the time and his name became a by-word for traitor. But in one of those curious etymological quirks, it morphed over time and is now the Greek word for nightmare. So in a strange way his name lives on.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 9:06:44 AM
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mhaze,

Did you ever see the film - "300?"

I remember the film. Watching it with
very mixed feelings.

It certainly had an impact. From the
brutality, blood soaked scenes, showing thousands
of horrible deaths - which got very depressing.
To the bravery of the men.

It certainly was fascinating history. Made more so
as more is learned about that period .
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 9:43:12 AM
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In Nature’s God Matthew Stewart contends that the founding fathers of the United States were inspired by Lucretius and Spinoza.

Nature’s God - Matthew Stewart (mwstewart.com)

"The ideas that inspired them were neither British nor Christian but largely ancient, pagan, and continental: the fecund universe of the Roman poet and philosopher Lucretius, the potent (but nontranscendent) natural divinity of the Dutch heretic Benedict de Spinoza. Drawing deeply on the study of European philosophy, Matthew Stewart pursues a genealogy of the philosophical ideas from which America’s revolutionaries drew their inspiration, all scrupulously researched and documented and enlivened with storytelling of the highest order. Along the way, he uncovers the true meanings of “Nature’s God,” “self-evident,” and many other phrases crucial to our understanding of the American experiment but now widely misunderstood."
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 10:06:28 AM
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David f, has no idea of what a civilized society is, as he assumes it is based in ignorance if it upholds theistic values of humanity.
1. All persons are made in the image of God
2. love your neighbour as yourself
3. Give care and wish well of your enemy
4. Be at peace with all persons
5. Care for the weak, sick and innocent
6. Let every able bodied person serve family and society

These principles make for a strong society
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 10:11:06 AM
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The misunderstanding is God is Creator of all reality, and all reflects his genius. We do not worship nature but the Genius of the Creator.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 8 September 2021 10:16:56 AM
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