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The Forum > General Discussion > Lets Talk About Racism. - what it is and how to spot it.

Lets Talk About Racism. - what it is and how to spot it.

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There are many people who wake up each day and
continue to experience racism in this country.

I thought it might be useful to have a conversation
about why this is, and for us all to find the
courage to have an honest conversation about this
and to see what we as individuals can do to stop it.

What is your understanding about what racism actually
is?
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 5 June 2021 1:13:02 PM
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A racist action is one where some individual or a group people does something to another person of group because of the "race"* (or better said "ethnic identity") of those others.
Eg: giving people who identify as being Aboriginal ABSTUDY but not people solely of European, Asian, African, etc descent is an instance of a racist action. Now whether someone considers this obviously racist action good or bad is a matter of their opinion.

*: technically the concept of "race" doesn't have a scientific basis. Biologist don't use the term. Instead of "race" it is probably better to use words like "ethnicity". Eg: some English people have historically referred to Germans (and vice-versa) as a different race, but in reality there is no genetic distinction that you can use to distinguish the two groups.
Posted by thinkabit, Saturday, 5 June 2021 5:11:11 PM
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"There are many people who wake up each day and continue to experience racism in this country."

Well I don't think that's true. Its a claim without evidence. So the rest of the post is really superfluous.
Posted by mhaze, Saturday, 5 June 2021 5:23:39 PM
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There was a factual documentary approx. 5 years ago
which showed " one in 5 Australians experienced
racism in the last 12 months according to one of the
biggest ever surveys conducted on racism and prejudice
in Australia."

" Commissioned by SBS with the Western Sydney University.
Ray Martin investigates the question: 'Is Australia
Racist?' This one hour documentary puts survey findings
into action through a series of hidden camera social
experiments, capturing the experience of racism through
the eyes of those who have suffered it."

We're told that "the results are at times confronting,
but "Is Australia Racist?" also reveals inspiring
Australians facing up to racism and standing up when
witnessing discrimination."

Taken from the following link:

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/875663427897/is-australia-racist
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 5 June 2021 6:33:17 PM
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Racism appears to be an intentional or unintentional
offensive message that targets a person based
entirely on their being a member of a minority group.
For example, as we've seen from recent adds on television,
choosing not to sit next to someone because you feel
uncomfortable about the colour of their skin.

Writing negative posts on social media about a
particular ethnic group.

Telling a person who was born and raised in Australia
that they speak " good English."

Making jokes about someone's background.

Calling people derogatory names because they are "different."
Outmoded names like - "wog," "ni**er" "ape" (Adam Goodes).

Hurling abuse at people on trams, trains, or buses,
because they belong to a minority group.

And the list goes on.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 5 June 2021 6:42:50 PM
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Hi Foxy,

I'd like to start by saying that the whole idea of racism depends on who you're asking, and it can get quite crazy.

It's like property managers idea of what is and isn't clean.
I rented a house and during the 7 years I was there I must've had just as many property managers,
- And they all had a different idea of what clean was.

Toothpaste on the bathroom mirror and crumbs in your griller are a part of everyday life I argued.
Some of them didn't seem to understand the difference between a periodic inspection and a bond inspection when I move out.

I remember a 'racism related' article a few months back.
A friend shared it with me on facebook, and there were many opinions about it.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/social/brisbane-venue-under-fire-after-two-very-annoying-asians-docket-emerges-on-snapchat/news-story/430557884d9760ef7583a47bf43b5637

I argued it's not necessarily racist in and of itself to point out someones race.
Am I supposed to be offended if someone calls me an Aussie?
If I'm being annoying should I be offended if someone points out that I'm being annoying?

If I'm being an annoying Aussie in a foreign country (minority) and someone points out that I'm being an annoying Aussie,
Do I have a right to accuse them of racism, when both parts of that which they assert are indeed true?

And so Foxy, I think first we need to define what it is and what it isn't because I'm not sure anyone has actually agreed on a standard set of rules.
- Instead people seem to have their own opinions on what determines an accusation of 'being racist'.

I don't like calling up internet companies.
I don't like dealing with Pakistanis or Indians.
- I find it's much easier to deal with someone from Australia.
Am I being racist, or do I just prefer people for whom English is their first language and who understand the way I talk and my culture better than someone who's never been here?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 5 June 2021 6:51:51 PM
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{Cont.] An extra thought to add on to my last rant.

- Let's be honest about it, the only reason I have to speak to a foreigner in the first place, is because it would be illegal to pay an Australian as little as they pay the foreigners to do the same job.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Saturday, 5 June 2021 6:57:16 PM
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Dear AC,

Thanks for your comments. I felt as if I had a mirror
held up to me on some of the things you pointed out.

It is normal to want to spend time with people that
have the same interests, background, culture,
language and so on. It creates a sense of belonging.
I guess the downside is that it can also set up
differences between us and other groups and this
might lead to us thinking that our group is better than\
others.

Also we often blame people for our problems.
People whop are different are an easy target.
"Those people take our jobs." or - "They get government
handouts." Nearly all the time these statements are wrong.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 5 June 2021 7:17:41 PM
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Slight correction to last post: "another person ^of^ group" was meant to be "another person or group" in the first sentence:

A racist action is one where some individual or a group people does something to another person or group because of the "race"* (or better said "ethnic identity") of those others.
Posted by thinkabit, Saturday, 5 June 2021 9:09:39 PM
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Dear thinkabit,

Thank you for responding to this discussion.

A lot of our attitudes are shaped when we're young.
When our family members or friends express racist
opinions it's common that we'll take on those views
ourselves.

The problem is that unless we do something about it
these views can stay with us for a lifetime.

We often put labels on people. And we stereotype
people from different backgrounds - "lazy" "brainy"
"aggro" and so on. However, if we get to know
them - we might just realize how much we have
in common.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 June 2021 7:27:02 AM
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Hi Foxy, very good topic.

I find racism in Australia often than not stems from "negative stereotyping", where people have formed a general opinion of a particular group without personal experience, based on singular examples of behaviour from news reports, hearsay or general scuttlebutt like you find posted on this forum, this negativity comes from all kinds of sources. Negativity brings on feelings of mistrust, misconceptions, dislike and ultimately it can lead to outright hatred. Politicians like Hanson can play into this general ill will for their own advantage. The politician is more successful with those that already have a pre disposed negative disposition towards the group that is targeted, Hanson with Asians and Muslims. On a broader scale economic fear of completion from a group for jobs and housing etc can bring on racism, in Australia's case based on irrational thinking of unjustified advantage given to the competitive group such as immigrants, aboriginals, ex-prisoners, all sorts by government.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 6 June 2021 7:42:39 AM
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cont'd ...

People don't often realise that for anyone
experiencing abuse or comments - this can have an
impact on their well being. Their mood of it happens
often enough can negate their self esteem and confidence.
It can also make them feel unsafe or put them in
physical danger, and so on.

Adam Goodes had a bad experience not so long ago.

The recent "Black Lives Matter" global
movement was a direct response to police brutality
against black people in the US which also gained
traction here for Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people - showed that systemic racism which
occurs in organisations such as governments, media,
companies, police, hospitals, schools,
when they discriminate against certain groups of people
is something that must be corrected.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 June 2021 7:44:30 AM
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Dear Paul,

Thanks for that - and well said.

I remember being made to feel like an outsider
at times at high school because of my "foreign"
surname which was made fun of. Then our next
door neighbours used to tell stories about
the Maltese people down the street - that they
ate "snails" from their garden, and their home
was filthy, and so on.

I got to make friends with one of their daughter
who went to my high school and was invited for
lunch one day. Well, I had the most delicious
meal - in a lovely home - which turned out to be
much cleaner than that of my next door neighbour's
house.

You live and learn.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 June 2021 7:52:09 AM
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cont'd ...

I've told this story before - but it's worth
repeating for a bit of a giggle:

My husband was waiting to be seen by a doctor in
a public hospital when an older nurse came up
to him and asked rather loudly, "DO YOU NEED
AN INTERPRETER?" (because of his "foreign" surname
I guess). My husband looked at her and smiled. Then
in perfect Oxford English replied:

"Why, doesn't the doctor speak English?"
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 June 2021 8:00:06 AM
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Hi Foxy,

I recall the first visit at a Christmas time to my very good Turkish Muslim mate's house. There's a Xmas tree set up in the corner with all the trimmings. From me; "Hal what's the go with the Xmas tree, you're Muz and I thought you didn't believe in that sort of thing."..."My kids love presents, and they love Christmas, they're not going to miss out, Paul have another scotch." Hal liked a good scotch, and his wife a nice white wine with dinner. University educated folk, both of them, professional, a spotless nicely furnished home, bright and polite children then doing very well at school, their dinners were second to none, often with several guests from all sorts of nationalities. HIs wife could join in any conversation and she had opinions on all kinds of subjects, none of that stereotype Muslim women bit. On drinking alcohol; Hal said; "What Allah don't see, doesn't bother Allah."
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 6 June 2021 8:33:44 AM
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Hi Paul,

We can learn so much from each other if we give
it a chance. I've been surrounded by different
cultures all of my life and the experiences
on the whole have been rich and varied. I take
people as I find them. As individuals. I still
have a great deal to learn and I hope that I
shall live long enough to be able to continue
my life's journey. So far it's been interesting
to say the least. On this forum - it's people
like yourself, and so many others, that keep me
coming back.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 June 2021 2:16:38 PM
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Foxy your Oxford English story reminded me of an experience I had in the islands. I had anchored in the Shortland islands, at the extreme northern end of the Solomon islands. A little while later a a short very fat local paddled out in a very small canoe. It was an amusing sight, & the canoe looked very dangerously overloaded.

I was used to surprises in the islands, & took people as I found them, but you could have knocked me down with a feather when he, in a very cultured Oxford English accent invited me home to dinner with he & his wife.

The poms had a great scheme in the Solomons. They selected the brightest locals, & sent them to the UK for their high school & higher education. He had been one, & then served in government becoming police commissioner.

They had a further great system where bureaucrats were only employed for 20 years maximum. Due to cultural aspects, but reinforced by the poms, they could not then live in the capital as superannuated bureaucrats, but had to return to their place of origin, taking their wealth & education with them.

A couple of hundred miles north is an atoll who's plantation owner had put 6 of the boys through Kings College Sydney, & university in Sydney or Port Moresby. Some of the girls had been sent to Scegs Moss Vale, & a couple to uni. About half of them were in Moresby in government jobs, but quite a few preferred the simple life.

Finding someone who was not as expected taught you not to judge people by their appearance.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 6 June 2021 2:47:12 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Thanks for sharing that story.

Talking about not judging by appearances.

I remember the American actor Billy Crystal
telling the story of his attendance at a
formal dinner in which American Indian Chiefs
were guests of honour. Billy said he'd never met
an American Indian Chief and all he knew about them
was from Western movies.

During the dinner Billy was seated next to one of
the Chiefs and Billy kept talking to the Chief in
"broken English" - "Pass ' em butter," "Pass 'em
salt,"and so on.

Finally, at the end of the dinner the Chief sitting
next to Billy was asked to make a speech. Much to Billy's
surprise the Chief spoke in the most eloquent English.
And when he finished he sat down next to Billy and asked
him:

" You like 'em speech?
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 June 2021 6:45:39 PM
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We all have our own range of experiences in life.
Luckily, most of mine have been positive. Yet the
Human Rights Organisation in Australia tells us that
" Many people experience racist behaviour." That
the "Challenging Racism Project" has found that 20% of
Australians surveyed had experienced racial discrimination
in the form of hate talk, and about 5% had been attacked
because of their race.

Apparently according to the "Scanlon Foundation Mapping
Social Cohesion Survey" done approx. five years ago (2016),
20% of Australians had experienced racial or religious
discrimination in the past 12 months.

The emphasis was that some groups experienced at higher
rates, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders and those
from culturally diverse backgrounds we're told often had
to deal with systemic forms of discrimination. Of course
such experiences limit the access that members of these
groups enjoy to the opportunities and resources offered
to many people from Anglo-Australian backgrounds.

Migrants and refugees also it seems regularly experience
racism in particular those who have recently arrived.

Media reports and commentary that uses negative
stereotypes about refugees and migrants can fuel prejudice
against these groups in the wider community.

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/education/who-experiences-racism
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 9:57:56 AM
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cont'd ...

The given link suggests the following to try to
stop this sort of behaviour:

http://www.itstopswithme.humanrights.gov.au
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 10:03:16 AM
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Here is what is being done to try to address the
problem:

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/race-discrimination/projects/national-anti-racism-strategy-and-racism-it-stops-me-campaign
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 10:15:55 AM
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Sometimes reservations are confused with racism.
I have reservations about moslems, but then Islam is not a race and
some of the worse Islamic attackers have been converts from European white people.
I think, considering the history of Islam, it is reasonable to have reservations.
Even more so if I was a woman. eg Rotherham etc in the UK & Bel Al in Sydney.
I know, I know, Foxy there are numerous moslems that fit in well.
That does not change anything.

A friend of mine wrote to the Human Rights body in NSW and informed
them that he will never employ a moslem as they are advocates for a
religion that requires its followers to kill unbelievers, especially Jews.
He never had a reply and has not had a visit from the Human Rights people.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 7 June 2021 10:42:39 AM
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Dear Bazz,

I understand your concerns. We all have our biases
to a certain extent. I also had/have mine. But as
I get older I take people as I find them.

I remember the time that my husband and I went to
Springvale Cemetery here in Melbourne looking
for gravesites of relatives and we accidentally
stumbled into a famous bikers funeral. Well we ended
up staying for it. It was absolutely awesome.
Gives me goosebumps even today - remembering.

It taught me not to judge people by appearances.
Or what I had read in the media or from commentary.

Taking people as I find them works for me.
It may not work for everyone of course.
I know that I'm not perfect either, so I should not
expect it from others. We all have our flaws.
But we are part of something we can respect - which is
the human race.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 11:22:19 AM
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cont'd ...

My previous doctor was Hindu. My current one is
Chinese. My eye specialist is from Pakistan.
My heart specialist is Scottish. We've recently sold
our house and moved into an apartment ( Chinese
owned), and many of the residents are Chinese.
Talk about multi-culturalism. It's all around me.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 11:27:47 AM
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Hi Foxy

FOR SECURITY PURPOSES RACIAL STEREOTYPING HAS SOME VALIDITY.

Re race based "WHITE Terrorism Threat Increasing" https://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9500 General Discussion starter.

It is an evitable reality that one's religion is rolled into racial stereotyping.

So. In the AUSTRALIAN context:

1. Christians are mostly UK-European origin WHITE

2. Jews mostly UK-European origin WHITE

3. Muslims are mostly Middle Eastern, South Asian and Southeast Asian origin BROWN
_____________________

BUT these easy equations have minority exceptions.

1. Significant CHRISTIAN minorities in Aus are Black African, Lebanese Christian and a minority of BROWN Latin American Catholics.

2. There are BLACK African Jews here but very few.

3. A minority of Muslims in Aus are WHITE converts. It is perhaps difficult for Canberra Security (eg. ASIO, AFP, ASD) to monitor newer ones including unidentified immigrants.

- Blond haired-blue eyed WHITE Caucasian Muslims eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_of_the_Caucasus#Turkic

The 2013 Boston Bombers, who killed/maimed many, were from the tiny US WHITE Caucasian (from Caucasus region astride Europe/Asia) minority Muslim grouping.

But they caused grave damage. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombing#Backgrounds
_________________

YET, COLOUR CODING TERRORISM, HOWEVER NON-POLITICALLY CORRECT, STILL HAS ITS USES.
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 7 June 2021 12:21:26 PM
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We need to define what we mean by racism. Because within the same race there are feelings of rejection or preference by those of the same race. We all have preferences with who we associate and if it is merely on the basis of skin colour - it is shallow. We have to rule out anything that is based in personal preferences, like we do not accept the company of those that do not speak our language, hold our values, food preferences or hygiene.

Racism has to be identified as rejected or preferred because of an identified race, all other discrimination is on preferences.
Posted by Josephus, Monday, 7 June 2021 12:25:35 PM
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Dear Pete,

We often put labels on people. I personally believe
that labels belong on jars. However we stereotype
people from different backgrounds as it is, so I'm not
too keen on colour-coding them. We should take people
as we find them. There are extremists within all
groups.

Also, if we get to know people from various groups
we just might realize how much we have in common.

Dear Josephus,

I've stated previously that it is normal to want
to spend time with people that have the same
interests, background, culture, and language.
It creates a sense of belonging.

The downside is that it can also set up differences
between other groups and this might lead to us
thinking that our group is better than others.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 1:04:00 PM
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In my earlier comment I said the whole idea of racism depends on who you're asking, and it can get quite crazy.

I even made a fair argument that it's not racist to call an Aussie an Aussie.
- So why should it be racist to call a Chinese people Chinese?

I thought that for this comment I might change it a little.
How about the label 'anti-semite'.
I've frequently been called such anytime I criticise Israel.
The thing is, at the end of all my arguments, no-one can beat me on a basis of merit.
Even David Singer skulks away when he knows he can't win the argument on a basis of merit.

So why should I be labelled some kind of derogatory meaning term when all I ever do is tell the truth, and make my arguments on a basis of merit.

Others claim I'm commiting an offense against them or discriminating against them in some way, but if all I do is lay out facts and tell the truth, then is their continued use of the word 'Anti-Semite', as well as the badgering and attempts to belittle my opinions not the real offense or discrimination?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Monday, 7 June 2021 1:16:22 PM
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The most racist thing occurring in Australia is a certain group demanding special inclusion in the institution, simply because they found the place before the Poms.

The second most racist thing is the same group demanding & receiving special rights & privileges.

That is fine with me, but then I'm a racist. After my experiences in the Pacific islands I don't like the French.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 7 June 2021 2:08:06 PM
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Dear AC,

There does seem to be a growing trend for some
people to equate criticism of the Israeli state
policies with antiSemitism.

While challenging antiSemitism is vital this trend
to label criticism of Israel's policies as
AntiSemitism is an attempt to silence critics of
Israel rather than halting antiSemitism. Israel
should be subject to the sem critiques as other
nations.

Conflating anti Zionism with Jew hatred is a
tragic mistake which "chills political expression
and support for Palestinian rights."

As for telling people the truth? We often blame
people for our problems. People who are different are
an easy target. "Those people take our jobs."
"They're lazy." "brainy." "aggro." "They get government
handouts." We've all heard these. Newarly all the time
these statements are wrong.

Dear Hasbeen,

We all have our biases. Some stronger than others.
And it's difficult to make judgements unless you've
experienced things yourself. Your dislike of the French
is based on what you've experienced and it sounds
quite normal. Many Lithuanians suffered under the
Soviet Regime, but does that mean they should dislike
Russians? I hope not.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 3:17:31 PM
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My suggestion to AC would by visit Israel and also Hamas held areas and compare the values of each. it is a comparison between Iran and Israel, so do you believe the values of Iran are more humane than Israel?
Posted by Josephus, Monday, 7 June 2021 5:23:47 PM
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Dear Josephus,

The Middle East needs peace, not instability, war,
enmity, inequality, and most importantly - double
standards. Without security and peace, democracy
and respect for human rights will be marginalised.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 7 June 2021 6:55:06 PM
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Hi Foxy, Hassy and everyone

RACISM (feelings of racial affiliation) is a universal reality, whether we like it or not.

That said...

Certainly "First Nations" people:

- formerly called Aborigines and Torres Strait Islanders,

trying to create a RACE Based Aristocracy under the Law (starting with the Constitution) is blatantly RACIST.

The Government is doing the right thing by resisting the radical "Uluru Statement from the Heart" racist-political push.

Albanese, if he ever gets in, will resist it as well, otherwise Labor would quickly be voted out!

Giving people (who are NOW mainly WHITE, mainly 1/4 or less "First Nations blood"):

- special "First Nations" Constitutional powers

- would be followed by special rules privileging "First Nations" in all legislation going through Parliament. Effectively a 3rd House of Parliament, exclusively for "First Nations" people who could veto all or most legislation/laws, and

- resulting in a whole series of laws privileging such people.

This is, of cause, a "First Nations" RACIST ABOMINATION.
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 7 June 2021 8:14:42 PM
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Racism has its roots in Galton's eugenics and Malthus on population, with many fellow travellers.

It's easier to view it as a class system or pecking order used to manipulate voters views and even motivate them in one way or the other.

Since the end of the white Oz policy (and US discriminatory immigration policies) outright racism is not generally tolerated but has been replaced by dog whistling on identity, immigration, refugees and population growth; since '70s helped along by ZPG etc.

However, dog whistling expert Prof. Ian Haney-Lopez has written of how it has destroyed the middle class in the US, making them paranoid and anxious, exemplified nowadays in the US by alt/far right, Evangelicals, QAnon, Capitol Hill types et al.

The Cafe con leche Republicans, and others e.g. George Bush (on 'Anglo Saxon' GOP caucus), complain that the GOP may become unelectable by becoming less diverse and less tolerant of diversity; voter suppression is related to demographic change.
Posted by Andras Smith, Monday, 7 June 2021 8:44:16 PM
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I guess I've always had a colour prejudice. As a young bloke, during my surfer bum period I was only interested in the girls with a deep tan & brief bikini. It did not matter whether the tan was sun or ethnic caused.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 7 June 2021 9:01:31 PM
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Hassy

You bikini racist you. Deep ethnic "tan" here http://i.pinimg.com/474x/05/01/eb/0501eb7a2953d27ebb8310fcd9872c29.jpg
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 6:14:48 AM
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Hi Planty,

I see it as a long stretch that asking for recognition and a voice is in someway demanding authority over all matters, eg will Australia buy a new battle ship, oh no, the aboriginal chamber has voted it down 564 votes to 498! Not realistic.

What we have to do as a nation is recognise that this land was occupied by a people before our arrival and those people had sovereignty over the land, and we stole it. In a practical sense that cannot, and should not be reversed. I support a recognition treaty that is acceptable to all sides, and I support an aboriginal voice in the affairs of the nation. I'm not going to the extreme of saying aboriginal people should have dominance over the rest in the affairs of the nation, as 3% of the population that is unreasonable, and after all we are all Australians. How best to achieve that "say" is debatable, to not do so is to leave an open sore. One suggestion is for aboriginal seats in parliament, voted on by aboriginal people themselves, given their percentage of the population 5 seats would not be unreasonable. What is your thoughts? Probably not acceptable to the majority.

More pressing is the disparity suffered by aboriginals in our society caused firstly by colonialism, and then by direct racism. "Closing The Gap" are real issues, real targets, that have to be addressed and then true equality is achievable.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 6:29:15 AM
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What a life Hassy,

Beach bum, petrol head, slack ocean cruising...then government welfare. Now at 85 you are dead against beach bums, petrol heads and ocean slackarses getting government welfare. Nice one.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 6:40:51 AM
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Foxy, it is a pity you do not understand the Middle East.

"The Middle East needs peace, not instability, war,
enmity, inequality, and most importantly - double
standards. Without security and peace, democracy
and respect for human rights will be marginalized."

I assume you attended the Palestinian protests chanting, "from the river to the sea Palestine will be free." - Free of Israel driven into the sea. You assume the Iranian support of Gaza is fighting for peace and democracy.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 9:47:43 AM
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Dear Josephus,

I have difficulty walking as a result of several
falls and operations so taking part in any protests
is not something I could easily
do.

As for the Middle East?

I am beginning to see that to try to explain away an
irrational supposition, especially when it is firmly held
by its proponents with rational explanations is
virtually impossible.

Dear Pete,

The Australian Constitution was the founding political
and legal document of our nation.

It under pins our federal laws and system of government.
Written over a century ago it was shaped by the values
and beliefs of the time. Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander people are still not recognised in the
Australian Constitution as Australia's First Peoples.
This has to change.

I believe that recognising our First Nations people in
the Constitution would simply right a wrong.

An advisory body would sit separately to Parliament. It
would offer a way to include Indigenous Australians
cultural authority in matters of law that affect them
and constitutionally guarantee them a say in their own
affairs.

There would be a Commission that would oversee the
agreement between the Australian government and the
Indigenous people. Everything would be done correctly
by mutual agreement on both sides.

We also need to amend Sections 25 and 51 (xxvi) of the
Constitution - for its racist powers.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 11:20:51 AM
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Paulo 4

Your trust in those mainly WHITE blood First Nation politicians is charming yet naive.

Land rights can/will be monetised.

Like "Native Americans" opening casinos on Indian Reservations.

Check this out Muchacho:

"Native American gambling comprises casinos, bingo halls, and other gambling operations on Indian reservations or other tribal lands in the United States.

Because these areas have tribal sovereignty, states have Limited ability to forbid gambling [on these Reservations].

As of 2011, there were 460 gambling operations run by 240 tribes, with a total annual revenue of $27 billion." see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_gaming

Land rights loopholes could/will be exploited by many of our First Nation politicians - many/most of whom have more WHITE blood than Aboriginal.
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 11:24:42 AM
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cont'd ...

Professor of Constitutional Law at the University of
Sydney, Anne Twomey says that:

"Constitutional recognition would herald the most
change because the idea is to create a body that
has gravitas and authority to speak for Indigenous
people."

"It would have political force and authority and moral
standing. If we create a body that is sufficiently
respected it would be a rare government that would
ignore its advice."

" The fact that it's created by the Constitution - the fact
advice will be tabled in government and is to be
considered in debate starts it off well."
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 11:27:16 AM
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Dear Pete,

Talking about land-rights?

You might find the following link interesting:

http://www.australianstogether.org.au/discover/australia-history/protection/
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 11:57:56 AM
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cont'd ...

Dear Pete,

I'll try again. Sorry for the typo.

http://www.australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/protection/
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 12:01:29 PM
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Hi Planty,

Me thinks its better to keep Australia's casinos in the hands of the big business types. In that way they can operate a more efficient money laundering systems for the gangsters, than placing the whole thing in the hands of aboriginals. Better still, if all the casinos were simply transferred to the Mafia, then that could cut out the middle men altogether, a real cost saving for the Godfather and the boys. With Covid-19 reeking havoc across business, I ask where had been the taxpayer bailout for organised crime? Coffee shops got millions, drug dealers got nothing, hardly fair don't you think?
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 12:23:37 PM
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"Constitutional recognition would herald the most
change because the idea is to create a body that
has gravitas and authority to speak for Indigenous
people."

Do come off the ratbag left stuff Foxy. Any such body would speak for the average aboriginal as the ratbag Greens speak for me, & any other reasoning Australian.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 5:05:48 PM
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Dear Foxy and Paul1405

There is a track record or precedent for a "Special" Black body - the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) (19902005).

ATSIC was the Australian Government body through which Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders were formally involved in the processes of government affecting their lives.

ATSIC was established, with the best of intentions, by the Hawke government in 1990. A number of Indigenous programs and organisations fell under the overall umbrella of ATSIC.

However, ATSIC "was dismantled in 2004 in the aftermath of corruption allegations [INCLUDING BUYING POKER MACHINES WITH FEDERAL MONEY EARMARKED FOR BLACK WELFARE] and litigation involving its chairperson, Geoff Clark." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_and_Torres_Strait_Islander_Commission

Whats more Foxy:

In 2001, ATSIC became embroiled in controversy over litigation surrounding its chairperson Geoff Clark, relating to his alleged participation in a number of [PACK] RAPES

in the 1970s and 1980s, after being named by four women.[4]

ATSIC was also investigated for corruption, and the embezzlement of funds intended for service delivery to help Aboriginal peoples."

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_and_Torres_Strait_Islander_Commission#Corruption_investigations

The 4 women concerned were torn between being loyal supporters of ATSICs noble black mission and allegedly being pack raped by the male dominated Aboriginal leadership.

Fortunately for the alleged pack rapists the silence of these women was ultimately forced along "aren't you women loyal to our black cause?" lines.

NOW JUST IMAGINE IF ATSIC HAD BEEN HELD ABOVE ORDINARY LAW (HENCE COULD NOT BE ABOLISHED) AFTER BEING ENSHRINED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION?!
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 6:21:20 PM
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Hi Pete,

ATSIC was limited because it was modelled on White
governance and only allowed relatively few Indigenous
people on the electoral roll to vote. Consequently the
vote turn out for ATSIC was around 30%. Ultimately the
Coalition dissolved ATSIC because it viewed mainstream
service delivery to be more effective and consistent
with its ideological view of integration.

The Coalition replaced ATSIC with the National Indigenous
Council ( NIC) a group of 12 Indigenous advisers who
it hand-picked. NIC was publicly denounced
for its non representative nature and minimal impact on
Indigenous policy and little engagement with Indigenous
communities. Another example of "window dressing" to
hide the government's lack of action.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 6:45:13 PM
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Hi Foxy

OK, ATSIC then NIC - it just shows how, in practice, "First Nations" outfits fall short of "Heart" felt lofty ambitions.

A Constitutionally imprimated "Ulura Statement From the Heart" leading to:

- a 3rd First Nations House of Parliament

OR

- a Constitutionally made PERMANENT Authority (that therefore cannot be abolished, even by the High Court?

OR

- a "First Nations" cleared clause in every or most pieces of legislation going through Parliament

would be thoroughly RACIST as it would privilege the "First Nations" RACE specifically.
____________________________________

Anyway. No major Party (when in power) will advocate and schedule a Racist Constitutional Referendum.

This is because Australians, since the the end of the White Australia Policy don't like sweeping RACE based laws.

Even Labor realises that if it actually got voted in (late 2021 Election or 2022) pushing an "Uluru" Referendum would be enough to rapidly lose Labor power.
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 9:33:58 PM
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Hi Pete,

An Advisory body of First Nations' traditional owners
to advise Parliament on policy affecting Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander peoples would offer a way
to include Indigenous Australians cultural authority
in matters of law that affect them and constitutionally
guarantee them a say in their own affairs.

The Advisory Body would sit separately to Parliament
and its advice would not be binding. A Commission would
ensure the agreement making between the Government and
Indigenous people would be by mutual agreement on both
sides.

I really don't see a problem with this. Neither does
Professor of Constitutional law at the University of
Sydney, Anne Twomey as mentioned earlier.

If you disagree with this - fair enough
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 9:56:14 PM
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No one has answered my question; What is an aborigine ?
WHOOPS ! Sorry I mean Indigenous !
I got pulled up the other day for saying aborigine, gauwd what a state we are in.

Will the proposed referendum have a sunset clause ?
I can see a time when a group of white people say, because they have
kept family records, that they are indigenous and they will have
formed a group using their special access to influence government.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 8 June 2021 10:00:50 PM
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"I got pulled up the other day for saying aborigine," Gawd, Bazz was that by a brother at the monthly meeting of your National Action Cell?

"Unterscharfuhrer you can not say ABORIGINE, the correct word is COON!"

Bazz, be careful what you say at party meetings, they will start questioning your loyalty.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 6:42:59 AM
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Dear Bazz,

The federal government departments adopt the following
3 part definition:

1) An Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander is a
person of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent.

2) Who identifies as an Aboriginal or Torres Strait
Islander.

3) And who is accepted as such by the community in which
her ( or she) lives.

This is their working definition for determining eligibility
to certain services and benefits and continues to be
applied administratively on a case by case basis.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 8:14:22 AM
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cont'd ...

Dear Bazz,

Here is a link that may be of interest:

http://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voices/culture/article/2016/12/07/heres-truth-about-free-ride-some-australians-think-indigenous-people-get
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 8:25:09 AM
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Foxy, I think you copy URLs by hand. The last one is wrong.
I suggested some time ago that you install Tinyurl.com.
When you have a web page you want to send a url to someone you have
the page open and click on the Tinyurl button on the menu bar and it
produces the Tinyurl version of the desired page which can then be
copied into an email etc.

Back to business; The conditions you list to define an aborigine is
that any one of the three or do all three conditions have to be met ?

Pardon me for a minute Foxy:

Paul, for heaven's sake stop being stupid, you have no sense of humour
all you are doing is making yourself look vicious.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 8:58:19 AM
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Dear Bazz,

The federal government departments adopt all 3 conditions.
As listed on a case by case basis.

As for my typing errors when citing links. I need
eye surgery and I have trouble with smaller print.
However due to covid - I have to wait a while.
Anyway, here's the previous link again:

http://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voices/culture/article/2016/12/07/heres-truth-free-ride-some-australians-think-indigenous-peoples-get
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 2:01:54 PM
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cont'd ...

Sorry Bazz, made another mistake - blind as a bat!

I'll try again (don't laugh):

http://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voices/culture/article/2016/12/07/heres-truth-about-free-ride-some-australians-think-indigenous-peoples-get
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 2:06:53 PM
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Well argued Bazza and Hazza

For the truth telling Off of Foxy and Paul14

I draw your attention to the words of Mr Mike Mansell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mansell

who is "a Tasmanian Aboriginal leader who, as an activist and lawyer, has worked for social, political and legal changes to improve the lives and social standing of Tasmanian Aboriginal (Palawa) people."

NOTING:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Mansell#Activism_and_commentary

"In 2001 Mansell stated that "there were more phoney than real Aborigines in Tasmania and more than half the voters in the 1996 ATSIC election were not Aboriginal".
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 3:07:17 PM
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Tks Foxy,
Yes many people think they get all sorts of privilege.
The government has put many $Billions over the years into various
schemes. As I said earlier I filled in a government form recently
for some benefit , can't remember what is was,but aborigines could get
it at 40 and above and I could get it at 50 and above.
It was not the only time I have seen that "racist" "privilege".
That reinforces peoples belief in all the silly rumours.
You did not make it clear if there was an "and" between each condition
or if there was an "or" between each. Big difference.

Remember the Blue Eyed Tasmanian aborigine that was prominent some
time ago. His complexion was darker so there he was a demonstration
of the difficulty.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 3:25:29 PM
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Ah yes Plantagenet, Michael Mansell. It appears a lot of the
Tasmanians have blue eyes. I recollect an article I read many years
ago about the idea that the Tasmanian aborigines are a different
people to the mainland people and that they arrived earlier than
the Koori people we are now calling the first nation, a Canadian term.
A thorough DNA examination may tell a lot of new history.
There have been big advances in that field in recent years.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 3:36:23 PM
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Foxy here is the link Tiny url produced, you just copy it in.
I take the s out of https to make it immediately clickable.

https://tinyurl.com/pxjadm2e

http://tinyurl.com/pxjadm2e

Cheers
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 9 June 2021 3:43:57 PM
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Thanks Bazz.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 10 June 2021 9:30:01 AM
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It looks like this discussion has now run its course.
I'd like to Thank all of the contributors. Personally,
I have learned from it. I hope that we all have. By
having honest debates - we can come to understand
the experiences of others and how to try to improve
things for us all.

I'm glad that I live in this country. My parents and
family member are buried here. They worked hard to
give their children the opportunities we now enjoy.
I would not live anywhere else.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 11 June 2021 8:38:37 AM
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Hi Foxy,

The idea that a group receives things from government "free" is not new. Back in the 60's a common belief was that European migrants received "free" handouts. There was a popular belief that "The wogs get all the houses!". There was a high degree of discrimination against Southern European migrants, not the majority, which at the time were British, but directed towards Greeks, Italians etc. Name calling and derogatory remarks was common practice for many working class Anglo-Australians.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 13 June 2021 8:57:03 AM
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Hi Paul,

Australia does have an ugly side. It can be a
racist, biased, and bigoted land. It's a country
that still finds its First Nations people degraded
and dispossessed.

I wrote on another discussion that it's a nation that
may be able to distinguish an Italian from an Englishman,
but it assumes that because of a "foreign" surname people
need an interpreter to understand English.

It's a nation that preaches about the virtues of
The Man From Snowy River but often fails
to measure up to the same values of bravery and courage.

Being Australian is not only about sticking to
stereotypes but it's also about juggling different
cultures and social identities. It's about
acknowledging that we all do come from somewhere.

Every day there's Chinese, Kenyans, Lebanese, Indians,
New Zealanders, Brits, and so many, many others,
all pushing past us in shope, restaurants, and in our
workplaces.

We've come a long way from the days of the "White
Australia" policy. We should reflect on the past and
roll up our sleeves and continue to build for a better
future for us all.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 13 June 2021 10:59:00 AM
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Hi Foxy

I don't get it.

We were brought up with respect for "elders.

It didn't matter if these "elders" were of a different colour or creed.

We all played and associated with each other.

So - what has now changed?
Posted by SAINTS, Tuesday, 15 June 2021 10:55:30 PM
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In Australia one can also be racist when remarking on an Indigenous's lack of motivation.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 6:52:58 AM
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Dear SAINTS,

Apparently some Australians still want everyone
to be average, as if the best thing you can be
is to fit in.

Dear Individual,

Welcome back.

There's many who lack "motivation" for a variety
of reasons. But it is racist to blame their colour,
ethnicity, et cetera for it I guess. One needs
to look at the roots causes.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 10:12:32 AM
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Foxy,
Thank you.
Yes, that's how a non-racist would & should see it. However, in the case of the feigned indignation brigade, it is racist to draw attention to a totally un-racist situation as soon as it could involve a so-called coloured person.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 12:57:53 PM
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To be deliberately spotting comments by one person of another individual not based on race and call it racism indicates the spotter is the racist person. Otherwise this is a case for races to be separated.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 5:39:11 PM
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the spotter is the racist person.
Josephus,
Spotter is an unsuitable word, racist opportunist is more apt.
As I have stated here many times, if we want to put an end to Racism then we should get the racists to stop bleating discrimination.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 7:50:10 PM
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And the list goes on.
Foxy,
I know many racists, some of them in public life yet they get paid handsomely from our taxes & carry on with impunity. Some of them are white !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 7:53:10 PM
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Indy,

Do you know any white racist that calls another poster a "concrete jungle bunny" when he found out he had Aboriginal heritage? Just asking.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 16 June 2021 9:23:30 PM
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Paul1405,
I think you're an escapee from the cartoon Madagaskar ! Going by your antics that is.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 June 2021 7:06:08 AM
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