Demos perhaps you might consider some evidence for your claims. Otherwise OLO is pointless.

I mean, to rebut you I could just say ‘ Israel has had to suffer Arab brutality for nearly 60 years and now Iran wants nukes to finish the job once and for all.’

The Arab-Israeli conflict is not a simple matter of one aggressor and one victim. On declaring their independence Israel was immediately attacked/invaded by seven of its Arab neighbours. Many Israelis were driven from their homes as a result of the Jordanian army capturing most of the west bank and parts of Jerusalem.

Then in 1967 the Arab coalition again tried to wipe out Israel. This time the Israelis won comprehensively and retook the west bank. Unsurprisingly they held onto this land as a buffer and as a bargaining chip to achieve peace.

The Arabs had a final go at getting rid of Israel in 1973 when most of the Israeli army was at home celebrating Yom Kippur. They lost again although the margin was much closer this time.

What is most interesting is the Arab opposition to a Palestinian state. The Jordanians and Syrians in particular worked to make sure no such state emerged during the 20 years that Arabs ruled the west bank.

The two groups are going to have to share the land for there to ever be a lasting settlement. But Israel is not going to give the land back to any group that will use it as a springboard for more destructive attacks.

With Hamas and Hezbollah committed to the annihilation of Israel, it should be easy to understand why Israel is not prepared to allow these groups to operate with impunity.

When the Palestinians renounce suicide bombing etc, they will find that Israel is interested in negotiating for peace. Israel would lose support very quickly if it reneged on their agreements in this respect

All contributions are welcomed... I always learn things from others input...

James.. quite so... but what you seem to be missing mate is this.

The West Bank is populated with the most loyal 'Zionists' of all the Jews.. the settlements are there with the clear idea of eventually joining them, and excluding the Arabs completely, this is even stated openly. (CNN)

I don't think you are giving sufficient weight to the Hamas Charter, which basically is the view of Hezbollah also. Did you or have you read it ?

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Part III - Strategies and Methods

Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.

No matter what is said at 'peace-talkfests' the above is the reality.

Against this we have:

Ezekiel 37
The Valley of Dry Bones
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones.

The bones were 'Israel/Jews' pre 1948

This is now....

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

The 38th chapter is staggering but I won't go into that now.

2NIGHT CNN 11.00PM "GOD's Christian Warriors"

I can just see it all now David: Lets say you have been living
on your family plot, which goes back 500 years or so.

One day these people come along and kick you all off, you
land up in a refugee camp. No compensation, thats just how
it is.

They claim its actually their land, as their holy book
says so.

You of course would not protest, if its in a holy book
it must be true :)

Try and for once understand this issue through others
eyes and minds, not just your own limited coke bottle
lenses (as Pericles so wisely puts it)

aAAAH yabby... oh pinching one :) please don't make me choke by using the words "Pericles" and "wisely" in the same sentence :) ok.. I do admit.. Pericles does have his unique and often smart way of capturing the essense of a debate, but he also considers having domestic pets as 'slavery'.... What would OLO be without him ?

But...you don't seem to grasp just how dear is that land to the Jews... (the religious ones).. can you imagine.. having been resident in many lands where you always knew that there was an 'Israel' once.. till the Romans destoyed it) and your mind was filled with the Torah, and the history of Abraham, and Sarah and Isaac and Rebekkah and Jacob and Rachel.. and the story of Joseph..and the slavery in Egypt.. the Exodus.. all this is living in your heart and yet...you have never been there. You know your identity is absolutely connected to these people, events and land.. but it is far away...

FINALLY.. you get to return..and WALK on the places Abraham walked.. and SEE Rachel's tomb..and the Cave of Machpelah...purchased by Abraham etc etc etc.. it just goes on..and suddenly all the history is soaked up by you.. as you realize this is..YOU... and you are connected to the land from the very beginning.....

You read of the exile..and restoration.. of Nehemiah and Ezra, and rebuilding the Walls of Jerusalem..and the opposition from Sanbalat and Tobiah (Books of Nehemiah and Ezra) and you find yourself locked in a struggle with modern day Sanbalats and Tobiahs... 'proto palestinians' you might say...

Words fail me.

Boazy: "Words fail me."

I'd agree with that.

Frequently :)

Well Pericles has a point about dogs! Take the poor old dog
owned by Dickie. Not a bone in sight anywhere, just veggies,
day in, day out. Its a slave to it's owners obsessions.
Now if it came to my place, I'd let it choose between
bones and veggies. I betcha I know what the dog would
choose :)

Now, after all that so called religious crap about the
past, what about the poor old bugger, who after 500 years
lost all his land? How is he meant to feel? Do you actually
have a sense of empathy?

If his land was stolen by some religious nuts, why wasn't
he compensated?