CNN has been running a series called 'GOD'S WARRIORS' and it covers
-Jewish
-Muslim
-Christian.

In the section on "Jewish" they mainly focused on the Settlers in the West bank.

The thing which stood out in terms of 'philosophical/theological' foundation underpinning the Settlers, was the idea of 'divine right' to the land, thus, it is not occupied, thus not subject to the 4th Geneva Convention.

Another stand out point, was the settlers attitude to the Temple Mount. Do they want a restoration of the Jewish Temple ? YES they surely do. Will this mean the removal of the Islamic Al-Aksa mosque and Dome of the Rock ? Absolutely. (Background reading Genesis 12:1-3, then rest of Genesis)

THEOLOGICAL FOUNDATION. The concept of possession of the land and Israels right to it, is based on 'Covenenant Obedience'. For the full story on this, one needs to read the whole of Deutereonomy, which is the most detailed account of the Covenant relationship.

Whether one agrees or disagees with the Settlers, of one thing there can be no doubt, in terms of the Covenant from a Jewish perspective, they absolutely have every right to take and own the whole of the West bank, every square millimeter.

INTERNATIONAL LAW would definitely be against this, but for the settlers the question is very simple. "Gods law, or mans law"?

Hence, we see in all this, the ingredients for a massive explosion of conflict which in the Bible is called Armageddon.

CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS (2night CNN) it must seem rather surreal to see Christians and Jews, celebrating together the return to the land, using the same scriptures.

CONCLUSION. It remains for us to consider our views, and deal with all this in our own way. For me, I see it as an inevitable unfolding, unchangable by man.

And this is why the region will never have peace.

Using a book written over two thousand years ago to lay claim to land now is a sure fire way to generate anger and resentment.

The West Bank at the moment is probably the greatest chance for a genuine Palistinian state, letting religious fundamentalists of any colour interfere in this would be a tragedy.

there is no would-be about this, it's tragedy already. the un has watched the piecemeal subjugation of palestine by jewish thugs since 1947, and the end is coming into view: greater israel.

'the un' is unfair, much has been said to stop the zionists, but the usa has blocked any action.

the only solution is to create a new international organization, replacing the un as it replaced the league of nations.

THE WEST BANK SETTLERS. DIVINE RIGHT or ILLEGAL OCCUPATION?

It seeks to make the major point that in the eyes of the Jewish settlers:

a)They ARE living in obedience to the Ancient covenant

b)Thus, they are not 'occupiers'.

James, it is equally a problem because of the Theologically based "Hamas Charter" which regards all land conquered by Muslims as an "Islamic Waqf till the day of resurrection" (and applies to SPAIN)

This of course leads to TWO vital questions.

1/ "Is Jesus the Messiah" in which case, the true "Israel" is the Church, and thus there is no claim on the geography of Israel at all.

2/ "Is Mohammad the true and final prophet of God", in which case, the Arabs alone have a divine right to the land.

IF....Jesus is "The Christ" then Mohammad could not possibly be a 'final' prophet, and the problem is solved 'theologically'.

One minor problem in all this, is prophecy about the Jews returning to the land, as predicted in Ezekiel (Ezekiel 37 and following) "The valley of dry bones" vision. The Settlers rely strongly on this for justification of the return and are fully cogniscent of the fact that this vision ends with a restored TEMPLE.

The other major point I'm seeking to underline, is that as James says, there is no human solution to this problem whatsoever, I further contend, that to seek one is basically a waste of time, money and energy. Not because I don't see deep suffering there, or care about it, I just recognize the deep rooted nature of the problem.

When James argues that making claims based on 2000 yr old documents is a bit weird, he misses the nature of those documents. They might be dismissed as 'fanciful legends' by liberal 'modern' scholars, but the central thrust of the Jews escape from slavery in Egypt is remembered from that day to this as "The great Salvation of our Lord"...

So, while a non Jew might easily dismiss it, a religious Jew will only see his identity and being in terms of this.

BIG POWERS AT WORK BEHIND THE SCENES..

Demos.

Please all read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Its easy to criticize the 'great Satan' (America) but there is also the 'Great AntiChrist' (for want of a better term) of the USSR at the time of the Yom Kippur war in 73.

We came very close to parallel of 'Balkans beginning, World wide ending' where the Holy Land became the beginning or a potentially Nuclear holocaust.

BOAZ,

First of all I never said there wasn't a human solution. There is the possibility of a solution IF (note the caps for emphasis) both sides can give up their arms.

The Palastinian state has been split in two. On one hand we have Arafats old party leading a proto-nation that is supported by the west and is slowly seeking raproachment with Israel and the rest of the world. On the other we have Hamas.

If Israel is smart, they will work with the west bank and show the benefits that come with peaceful co-existance. This will be the looong awaited example of the benefits of peace for those in Gaza, something that has been long missing. It will become increasingly difficult for Hamas to argue that war is the only way.

Demos perhaps you might consider some evidence for your claims. Otherwise OLO is pointless.

I mean, to rebut you I could just say ‘ Israel has had to suffer Arab brutality for nearly 60 years and now Iran wants nukes to finish the job once and for all.’

The Arab-Israeli conflict is not a simple matter of one aggressor and one victim. On declaring their independence Israel was immediately attacked/invaded by seven of its Arab neighbours. Many Israelis were driven from their homes as a result of the Jordanian army capturing most of the west bank and parts of Jerusalem.

Then in 1967 the Arab coalition again tried to wipe out Israel. This time the Israelis won comprehensively and retook the west bank. Unsurprisingly they held onto this land as a buffer and as a bargaining chip to achieve peace.

The Arabs had a final go at getting rid of Israel in 1973 when most of the Israeli army was at home celebrating Yom Kippur. They lost again although the margin was much closer this time.

What is most interesting is the Arab opposition to a Palestinian state. The Jordanians and Syrians in particular worked to make sure no such state emerged during the 20 years that Arabs ruled the west bank.

The two groups are going to have to share the land for there to ever be a lasting settlement. But Israel is not going to give the land back to any group that will use it as a springboard for more destructive attacks.

With Hamas and Hezbollah committed to the annihilation of Israel, it should be easy to understand why Israel is not prepared to allow these groups to operate with impunity.

When the Palestinians renounce suicide bombing etc, they will find that Israel is interested in negotiating for peace. Israel would lose support very quickly if it reneged on their agreements in this respect

All contributions are welcomed... I always learn things from others input...

James.. quite so... but what you seem to be missing mate is this.

The West Bank is populated with the most loyal 'Zionists' of all the Jews.. the settlements are there with the clear idea of eventually joining them, and excluding the Arabs completely, this is even stated openly. (CNN)

I don't think you are giving sufficient weight to the Hamas Charter, which basically is the view of Hezbollah also. Did you or have you read it ?

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Part III - Strategies and Methods

Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.

No matter what is said at 'peace-talkfests' the above is the reality.

Against this we have:

Ezekiel 37
The Valley of Dry Bones
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones.

The bones were 'Israel/Jews' pre 1948

This is now....

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.

The 38th chapter is staggering but I won't go into that now.

2NIGHT CNN 11.00PM "GOD's Christian Warriors"

I can just see it all now David: Lets say you have been living
on your family plot, which goes back 500 years or so.

One day these people come along and kick you all off, you
land up in a refugee camp. No compensation, thats just how
it is.

They claim its actually their land, as their holy book
says so.

You of course would not protest, if its in a holy book
it must be true :)

Try and for once understand this issue through others
eyes and minds, not just your own limited coke bottle
lenses (as Pericles so wisely puts it)

aAAAH yabby... oh pinching one :) please don't make me choke by using the words "Pericles" and "wisely" in the same sentence :) ok.. I do admit.. Pericles does have his unique and often smart way of capturing the essense of a debate, but he also considers having domestic pets as 'slavery'.... What would OLO be without him ?

But...you don't seem to grasp just how dear is that land to the Jews... (the religious ones).. can you imagine.. having been resident in many lands where you always knew that there was an 'Israel' once.. till the Romans destoyed it) and your mind was filled with the Torah, and the history of Abraham, and Sarah and Isaac and Rebekkah and Jacob and Rachel.. and the story of Joseph..and the slavery in Egypt.. the Exodus.. all this is living in your heart and yet...you have never been there. You know your identity is absolutely connected to these people, events and land.. but it is far away...

FINALLY.. you get to return..and WALK on the places Abraham walked.. and SEE Rachel's tomb..and the Cave of Machpelah...purchased by Abraham etc etc etc.. it just goes on..and suddenly all the history is soaked up by you.. as you realize this is..YOU... and you are connected to the land from the very beginning.....

You read of the exile..and restoration.. of Nehemiah and Ezra, and rebuilding the Walls of Jerusalem..and the opposition from Sanbalat and Tobiah (Books of Nehemiah and Ezra) and you find yourself locked in a struggle with modern day Sanbalats and Tobiahs... 'proto palestinians' you might say...

Words fail me.

Boazy: "Words fail me."

I'd agree with that.

Frequently :)

Well Pericles has a point about dogs! Take the poor old dog
owned by Dickie. Not a bone in sight anywhere, just veggies,
day in, day out. Its a slave to it's owners obsessions.
Now if it came to my place, I'd let it choose between
bones and veggies. I betcha I know what the dog would
choose :)

Now, after all that so called religious crap about the
past, what about the poor old bugger, who after 500 years
lost all his land? How is he meant to feel? Do you actually
have a sense of empathy?

If his land was stolen by some religious nuts, why wasn't
he compensated?

Yabby

The poor old bugger was doing alright if he managed to hold on for 500 years.
Three score and ten is about my limit I’d say.

In all seriousness the conflict is much more complicated than you make out. The majority of Israel is not Zionist. Israeli Gov’ts of all persuasions have been closing settlements for the last 20 years.

There is no doubt that Palestinians have been dispossessed as a result of Israeli expansion. But at the time of Independence in 1947, no Palestinian were driven off their land. In fact it was only after the second attempt by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq etc to destroy Israel that Israel held onto the land which had previously been occupied by these armies.

Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt when they renounced their aim to destroy Israel. If Hamas and Hezbollah also accepted Israels right to exist then a real and lasting peace could be negotiated.

But how can Israel make peace with groups who are committed to its complete destruction? No country should be expected to