Graham....thanx for those tidbits... not a strong case by any means, but no need to squabble over that here :)

O Sung Wu.. your kind words are appreciated, and all I can say about me not being too fazed by it all is..from Philippians 2

1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

COMMENT
I constantly fail to meet this ideal, but I do try :) I've also been to Vietnam during the war.. I saw some stuff. For me its simple..God gave us choice and trigger/sword fingers.. we do all the killing. It's our alienation from Him that causes all this.

RACHE..I had a look at the links.. and it's very difficult to know where to begin, but I can assure you, that the evidence of the NT completely rejects such ideas of 'dependance'..for more reasons than I can list here. Thats not a 'stone walling' you can take this debate to newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au if you want more interaction on this.

Rache - As I recall it the founders of ancient Rome - Romulus and Remus - took a boat ride too.

The twins were born in secrecy by a fallen princess, put in a wicker basket and sent down the river Tiber. They were found and raised by a wolf until found by a shepherd called Faustulus.

Nice to see that not everybody has their mind rusted shut about some things.

This is just good old religious syncretism, isn't it?

I've actually had PNG highlanders tell me in all seriousness that Jesus was the same guy as in one of their myths, and that the Christian God is the same as their Creator. Mind you, the same people were the first I ever heard talking about the apocalyptic barcode myth - this was pre-2000 and it was all very millenarian, really - and the missionaries had been at them for decades so the stories tended to get mixed up with Revelations and all that other eschatological crap.

Mind you, it was no more fanciful than some of the stuff you read on OLO :)

Christianity has cultural relavence to the society it impacts.

The Christmas tree had Germanic origions. When a Christian missionary went to Germany in the 6th century AD he witnessed the people worshipping under a giant oak tree during the winter solace. They would bake a pudding containing a coin and feed the pudding to their children the child that received the coin was to be sacrificed to the god to bring new life. When the oak tree put foward its first sign of life it to them indicated the god has accepted their prayers and sacrifice.

The Christian missionary was so discusted with the sacrifice of their children he decided to cut down the giant oak during the night. When he cut down the oak he noticed at its roots grew a small fir tree. He stood on the stump of the oak and declared their god was dead; he worshipped a God who lived forever. Using the analogy of the diference between the two trees (The oak is deciduous the pine ever green), he was able to convince the people to abandon their practise of child sacrifice.

From that day the child that received the coin was considered particularly blessed as their life was spared to serve their new God. Hense the development in a local culture of significance of things like Pine trees at Christmas and puddings containing coins. They are not in the Bible but they have cultural significance. Taken from a pagan practise and given new meaning. If it was not for Christianity they may still be sacrificing children.

Atheists are obsessed with history rather than spirituality. The principles of true spirituality remain regardless of who said them. The Christian God is revealed (incarnate) in humanity by pure character, wholesome attitudes, behaviour that enhances and gives life, and the best of wisdom. To Christians Christ Jesus exactly espresses these divine qualities. It is in these qualities that God is revealed. God is not exclusively only revealed in people who call themselves Christian. However for me Christ is the one I learn and trust in as fully revealing the true nature of God incarnate. Ill follow him.

Philo: "If it was not for Christianity they may still be sacrificing children."

Well thank God for that Christian missionary. Since then Europe has lived happily ever after.

I always wondered abou the real story behind Christmas trees. Just as well Philo knows the truth. Now I want to know the truth about the pigs that keep flying past my window.