As some of you know I am working on various YouTube sites.

What surprises me is the rise of new atheism. I'm not personally sure what to make of it.

This could be attributed to various things. One could be in reaction against our Governments who have lied so much in the Gulf war, used these lies with religion as part of the rationale, and as a response, young people are reacting against all religions put together. Too many lies. The internet is facilitating young people to question everything and believe nothing. Who can blame them?

In the floods of mail and posts I get on some of my channels, I have noticed some questions as to why the details of the Jesus story are so similar to the story of Horus.

Jesus and Horus could easily be the same person. Is it possible in describing who Jesus was, the culture that wrote the Bible virtually carbon copied the details of Horus?

I looked up a few web sites to check. There it was. This is not a new question. I can almost hear David Boaz's keyboard revving up...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

There are many others...

Now look at the YouTube site that took my imagination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-yI7ckLdcc

This looks interesting stacking up the information.

Then there is the radical atheist side to YouTube culture that has Christians realing. All I have to say is mention "dendrophilian" and you have the Christian fundamentalists barking like German shepherds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaZ4u-kY9yE

The shock jock on YouTube that Christians love to hate.

Then there is "the Blasphemy Challenge" where people are asked to renoucne the existance of God and the Holy Sprirt, liberate themselves, and admit that there is no God. They have the chance to win a free book.

Thousands of YouTubers have denounced God, and announced their liberation. The numbers are growing by the day. Why?

The is a movement that all religions did not account for. The possibility that a generation of people would totally shun them all forever.

Over to you David...

Saintfletcher,
I’m also familiar with the Jesus/Horus similarities but there are many more pagan “saviours” that share uncanny similarities.

Here’s a summary of some more.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

And another
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/PaganChrists_Attis.html

Plus a handy reference to other Gods.
http://www.godchecker.com/

I think the doubt is the result of increased availability of information plus general social dissatisfaction as disillusionment.

On the other hand, religion reinforces personal arrogance and superiority and long-held beliefs are not surrendered lightly.

The similarities are further enhanced by the symbolic use of numbers in religions. In Christianity, is it just coincidence that there were 12 disciples, 12 months of the year, 12 signs of the Zodiac, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 gates of Jerusalem, 12 manner of fruit on the tree of life and so on? Even multiples of 12 appear in heaven as signs of perfection. 12 is said to be the number of the Church while other significant numbers (such as 3, 6 and 40) have other meanings and reappear constantly.

Likewise, all the main stories (virgin births, miracles, healing, resurrection) have historically appeared elsewhere many, many times before Jesus arrived, just as stories of a Great Flood occur in several cultures.

The scriptures related to Jesus that pre-date the Gospels (like actual historical records) make absolutely no mention of any of these divine aspects so it may be that “extra bits” were added to the story later on and were just a composite of many of the earlier legends, just as extra verses were mysteriously inserted into the Gospels over time.

The three monotheistic religions have the same origin and this seems to have come from ancient Egypt.

Before all this – as in most ancient cultures- people’s lives were dictated by the movement of the sun and stars – such the time to sow their crops and the predictable changing of the seasons. These movements were personified into stories that led to the pre-astronomical version of astrology (not the modern mumbo-jumbo version) and most religions include these references, whether they choose to admit them or not.

*POUNCE* :)

OK....I'm here.. coooeeeee...

Yep..I've heard/seen the horus thing b4.. it's really quite laughable, rather than try to address it directly, I suggest some study of SOURCES.. in particular the New Testament, the Gospels, and really did into this, and it become more than abundantly clear that any such similarities are coincidental at best, and it also ignores the differences.. nuf said.

Wow..that Dendro character is really quite a piece of work eh :) a very rascally bloke. "We reap what we sow" comes to mind. I hope he opens his heart the the Lord he is currently mocking.

I don't worry about the 'new atheism' I prefer to focus on the 'old' time religion and the growth of the Church and believers.
You know the parable of the Soils ? (also called the sower) it describes most category of people.

Ok.. I've said my bit :)

WATCH CNN 2 NIGHT 11:00PM "GOD'S CHRISTIAN WARRIORS" Should be interesting.

READ THE BOOK OF DANIEL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND STUDY THE PROPHESIES THEN GO TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS IT JUST COINCIDENCE?

Fletcher (I'm taking the Saint off, because it doesn't ring true), the problem with the Internet is that you can find a site to support almost anything.

I don't have a problem with the idea that mythic elements found their way into the life of Christ. Or that some Christians appropriated mythic rites and deities. But I don't see that this invalidates Christianity.

My final year English project was an attempt to write a life of Moses stripping the myth away from it. I got a VHA, and this at a Catholic school in Brisbane. I could probably have done the same thing with a life of Christ and achieved the same result.

Any serious Christian knows that there are all sorts of overlays. But that doesn't invalidate the historical fact that he lived, nor the power of the story to provide meaning to human life. It's a compelling narrative, at least as powerful in the metaphysical realm as e=mc2 is in the physical.

The sites that you have linked to are generated by people with serious problems, particularly the guy who says he's God. People with that degree of hate are destroyers, not creators.

You make it sound very conspiratorial but it’s really quite simple.

Basically, the cult of Mithras was the dominant religion in the Western world until it was formally supplanted by early Christianity by Emperor Constantine.

Many of the Mithraic features seem to have been incorporated into Christianity during the 300 –odd years they co-existed – such as making Sunday as a day of worship, the chief festivals during the (now traditional) Christmas and Easter periods, the virgin birth, baptism (which incorporated the sign of a cross on the forehead), eternal life through salvation as well as many other now familiar themes. Ancient Christianity was also originally Unitarian while Mithrasism was Trinitarian (a trinity).
Easter (or Oestre) was originally a pagan festival of fertility (hence eggs and rabbits) where bulls were sacrificed and eaten in a ritual of communion. The bulls were eventually replaced by loaves of bread to eliminate the paganism feature. There are a multitude of other things I could include here.

Festivals (like our own public holidays)had to be retained to "keep the peace" during the transition from one belief to another so the dates were simply and conveniently merged.

Despite the first Edict of Milan and the first Congress of Nicaea, after Constantine’s death, an attempt to restore Mithasism was made by Emperor Julian (the Apostate) but he was killed by the Persians (allegedly killed by a Christian soldier).
The following Emperor Jovian restored Christianity’s status and removed the last remnants of Mithrasism. Ironically he did this by killing those who did not accept the idea of the Holy Trinity! Nice idea.

If languages and customs cross-pollinate when they co-exist in societies, why not religious ideas as well? Particularly over hundreds of years.

There is no reason to believe that ANY religion sprang to life spontaneously and independently from all others around it(except maybe Scientology which is really a contrived religion in name only for tax reasons).

The tragedy of religion comes when people obsess and kill over the literal nature of scriptures and ignore any underlying message and potential for good that religion may contain.

Rache...the tragedy of some religions is that on both the literal AND the underlying levels.. its 'kill kill kill' selected individuals because of what they represent. Fortunately there is no such double barrelled danger in the Christian Scriptures.

I totally reject the idea of 'many overlays' and that early Christianty simply absorbed prevailing religious ideas.. that simply goes against the evidence as it stands. You would need to re-write pretty much all archeology from the time of Christ till now to support such a view...it just doesn't have legs.

When Paul preached to the Jews, he connected the proclamation of "messiah" to the Jewish history and scriptures. When he proclaimed the Gospel to the Greeks, he connected it to their "unknown god" (Acts 17).

What we are seeing there is not some kind of 'mystery religion overlay' we are seeing GOOD COMMUNICATION practice. Paul did not try to scratch the Greeks where they were not itching. Hebrew Scriptures would not mean anything to them, so... he preached the death and resurrection of Christ and related this to their existing concept of God.. "The Unknown one"

Boazy, before you totally reject an idea because it doesn't fit what you want to think, ask yourself: what is Christian about putting up a decorated tree at Christmas? Have you ever put up a tree?

BUGSY.. I love it when people ask questions like that :) you are quite right. Christmas trees have ZERO to do with the faith of the early Church or Christianity in general....

In our case, we sometimes have a tree, but I specifically point out that it:

a) was once a pagan thing
b) For us, we attribute Christian symbolic meaning as a family.

My wifes people used to have a thing called an "Irau" a big booze up and rather sleazy party every year. But this has now been 're-badged' and timed to coincide with Easter, and the events of the Cross are now the focus..and no one gets drunk any more.

But when it comes to Christianity as a historic faith..I simply re-iterate.. the evidence is just 'not there'.. as much as some people would like it to be, that it became influenced or infected by the local mystery religion.

Some have speculated that Gnostic influence is evident in some of Pauls letters, but this is not sustainable. His letters were before Gnosticism anyway.

Cheers.

I find it very odd that you can acknowledge that elements of Christianity have inherited parts from other religions and "rebadged" them, and then totally reject that idea in the same post. Very odd.

BD I think you're too quick to dismiss the influence of other religions on Christianity, and vice-versa. Christianity didn't come into being whole, it is explicitly built on innovation in the Jewish relgion (New Testament versus Old). Less explicitly it draws on the influence of Greek philosophy, and probably even contains some elements derived from Buddhism.

Careful reading of the scriptures shows a development from a pagan understanding of God as being one god amongst many to the one all-powerful creator. It was a neat rhetorical trick of Paul's to refer to the unknown god, but that god was the Greek equivalent of the god of the gaps. They believed in so many gods that this was the one that they might have forgotten.

Paul was turning this on its head. In his pantheon the most minor of their gods was the most major and only God. Which is why Christianity was so powerful - there was a void at the heart of Hellenic and Roman pantheism. It explained different phenomena episodically and partially. An all-powerful creator God sorted all of this mess out, but the personality of the God through Jesus made it more powerful than more abstract monotheism. (And I think the evidence for Jewish monotheism points towards an Egyptian origin in Akhenatenism).

Graham I'd like to see that case well argued, with some sources, rather than just stated.

"Less explicitly it draws on the influence of Greek philosophy, and probably even contains some elements derived from Buddhism."

Key words 'It draws on'....

so less explicitly I can't see it :)

BUGSY.. and I thought you were a bright fellow :)

Rebadging a traditional practice, .. As I said..Paul just used it at as a communication point of contact..."the Faith" was not influenced by those practices.

The Catholic approach to evangelism among traditional tribes of Sarawak was notably different. They accepted 'taboos' and all manner of pagan practice, and basically threw some holy water at it, baptized all and sundry, told them they were now 'Catholics' and life went on as usual, but the Bungan Cult is still alive and kicking, not among the evangelical Kenyas but among the others.
http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctry.php?rog3=ID&rop3=104836
Look at the 'What do they believe' subheading, and refer to the last sentence

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/u9030e/U9030E02.htm
There are some good pics in that link, might be of general interest.
You'd be amazed at how gracefully the ladies who wear those heavy ear lobe rings can walk :) they make catwalk supermodels look positively clumsy.

Graham I take exception to your condescending reaction to this thread. The pettiness of saying that you can't write "saintfletcher" because it doesn't fit.

I'm sick of the tag "saintfletcher" too, but because this service is still in the stone-age, it is IP sensitive and it won't let me change an old joke. So I've been stuck with it for years.

Have you been hiding in some academic cave in Brisbane for too long? There is a very big world out there and they have a thing called "You Tube". If you haven't noticed, it is huge. It is growing by the day. It is, in fact Google's biggest investment at the moment.

It is THE largest interactive video archives in the world, and the most popular with youth culture. "Dendrophilian" has been on the top 7 of the most popular channel for 4 months, followed by blasphemy challenges and atheist channels.

Now, with the "Blasphemy Challenge" and the "atheist" sites sprouting from this, excuse me Graham, but this has been one of the biggest news items in the Fox Network this year.

While you dismiss my links, if you have the time, consider these links from the Fox network, on YouTube:

Fox: "Blasphemy In the Hearland"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDB3rHOHu4E

Fox with George Gibson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4y4W9j14H0

Then there is a Christian response from my favorite Christian on You Tube, the cool and new generation: Father Matthew and his response. Father Matthew.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FznbwmCmTOQ

So Graham, my link are not nebulous at all, they are mainstream now. Your service is the one that seriously needs to catch up with new technology.

When will this service have video threads, and spaces for us to give video responses on cam. like you can on YouTube? Some like DB and Belly could have a following on YouTube, there is an audience for everyone, you just need a camera to upload.

We all have different opinions, but we all want to make a difference in our own ways.

Stop the pettiness Graham, wake up and catch up with the times

rache, 'the tragedy of religion...'. Can't argue with you there, but would add that religion in general, and particularily the one-godders present a fixed answer to a question where the parameters keep changing. Science has pulled apart the atom and is now looking at the spaces between the quarks, while Religion ( an attempt to understand life) just keeps banging on about obedience and observance.
Curious that a couple of billion people on the planet believe in a spiritual dimension that seperates 'life' from the material world, but the one god religions have all but forgotten any spiritual dimension in their beliefs.
Who knows that the space between the particles won't turn out to be more important than the bits themselves, and 'spirit' and physics won't become the one science?

Some interesting posts on this subject. Religious people of all persuasions including Christians often copy other religions so it's not too surprising, however some of the so called similarities between Christ and Horus are only imaginary. For instance the Bible no where says Jesus was visited by three wise men. It only says wise men and makes no mention of the number three. Also the Bible says nothing about celebrating December 25th or Christ's birthday.

In regards to the rise of new atheism. No real surprise there. Young people in America are leaving the Fundamentalist Churches in America in droves. They see the Churches over there as being completely hypercritical.

BOAZ, Why can't all religions - except Christianity - "borrow" from each other and what type of archaelogical evidence is relevant?
Are some of the lines from the 23rd Psalm appearing in an ancient Egyptian tomb not a type of archaeological evidence?

There are many more examples I could give.
Here's just one more because I know you have already made up your mind.

Sargon of Akkad was a famous Assyrian King from around 2000BC.
He was the illegitimate son of a priestess who, in her shame, put him into a boat made of rushes, sealed with pitch, and set him adrift on a river where he was found and raised by somebody else.

As well as being an acknowledged inspiration for Nimrod in the Bible, he also seems a little "Moses-like". What are the odds of two famous people from those ancient times starting their lives in the same unusual way?

As for Christmas trees, those are a typical example of how part-superstitions rule our lives and how entrenched they become over time. Gradually the original meaning is lost and new ones are created to suit the times.

For instance, why did they take flowers out of hospital wards at night years ago? It wasn't because they "took oxygen out of the air at night". It was because of the ancient (historical) belief that evil spirits could hide among them and come out while patients were sleeping and at their most vulnerable at night. Nobody recalls this today but that was the original belief so the flowers were still removed but for different reasons.

Like the classic experiment of the monkeys in the cage, the banana, the ladder and the firehose, nobody remembers or even knows the truth behind many everyday traditions they take for granted and without question. Our society is riddled with these things, yet we claim to be "enlightened".

Aethism is just a word to describe people who could not believe the religions that envelope the world and chose to believe in nothing which is initself an irony. Christianity,Islam and Judaism have much in common just many sub branches to suit peoples tastes. I see religions in the 21st century being interbred, inter-twined and unfortunately intellectualised. If DNA testing is correct, we are all travellers from the one area and with that basis we have a memory of the first myths and beliefs of the unknown from our ancestors. I thoroughly enjoy reading my history books, archaelogy and anthropology books.

Picture the world not fighting about religion, no deaths relating to religious beliefs. Consider what ever happens you are not prejudiced or alienated because of your beliefs. Would aethism be on the rise?

RACHE....I googled the Sargon thing and here is the first link I found:

http://tektonics.org/copycat/sargon.html
You don't hear it much today, but it used to be all the rage to compare the birth story of Moses to that of a certain Sargon of Assyria, and claim "Copycat!" That's not heard much anymore, other than by Skeptics using outdated sources, and we'll see why in a moment.

Please provide a link to info on Psalm 23 and it's connection to Ancient Egyptian inscriptions.

I'm not about to say that early Christian or even Old Testament writings did not make use of contemporary imagery to convey a point. Paul, when speaking at the Areopogas said "I see you are very religious.. unknown god" etc...

Fletcher, I wasn't meaning to insult you. "Saint" just doesn't appear to be an appropriate appelation. BTW, is it only in Australia that you can insult someone by calling them an academic?

You're right that OLO could have some more up-to-date technology, and when we have the resources, we'll do something about that. But, in the meantime I'm impressed with the community that has built around us.

BD, I'm not sure why I require footnotes. If you want evidence of Greek thought in the Bible, then you only need to look at Paul's line about "Now we see through a glass darkly, but then we shall see face to face". Sure you can sort out the exact reference for me, but this is straight Platonism.

Buddhism is a bit harder to pin down. "When you consider the lilies of the field, neither do they reap nor do they sow. But your heavenly father looks after them. How much more will he look after you," is pretty Zen. Not necessarily a link, but very similar. Grist for a PhD.

Appropriate to what Graham? If I am not Christian, how is it not appropriate to show a bit of humor. You just don't get it do you? Like I said last time, I have tried to change this name, but OLO is IP sensitive, and whenever I try to change it, the site keeps going back to "saintfletcher". It is not fair for you as the moderator to keep teasing me about this when it is clearly a technical problem with your site.

You put me in a frustrating situation and it could be seen as bullying.

Also, it lowers the decorum when you impose your opinion against others and you are supposed to be impartial and unbiased as the moderator.

Of course you also have the right to your own opinion, but with personally digging in to me like this is not "appropriate".

I sense that you may be younger and less mature than I once thought.

Besides this, I still enjoy OLO and I do like just about everyone on this site including Graham.

I am learning from you all and respect everyone's opinion (well, usually, I had my times...lol) and well anyway thats the last of my little whinge I'll let the discussion move on now.

I think you're missing my humour Fletch.

This is slightly off-topic, but there is a good reason why the system won't let you change your nickname. It is not that it is IP sensitive, but that it uses your email address as your identifier. The reason we won't let you change your nickname is that if you did it would change every entry that you had ever made. This would be very confusing for people trying to follow threads.

So you are stuck with your nickname, unless you want to create another account at a different email address. As long as you then exclusively move across to this other address then you are free to continue posting. It's only in the case when posters register another account to circumvent posting rules that we get upset.

whatever

Hi to you BOAZ David...

I've followed your many 'threads' for quite some time now. And in my view, you exude a certain quality of decency, in your writing. Notwithstanding you do receive a fair amount of criticism and occasionally, even abuse from a few. But you never seem to be 'fazed' or angered by your critics or tormentors. I've often wondered why ?

Obviously, you do possess a fairly strong Christian ethic, BD. So did I once, in another life ! Though, South Vietnam and the coppers soon knocked that out of me. The existance of God, is a rather novel concept or hypothesis, but certainly nothing more. Sadly !

During my sixty six years of life, I've seen absolutely NO evidence of his existance. But, I've seen and experienced very strong empirical evidence, to the contrary. Supporting the FACT that he (God) doesn't exist, and never did.

When it's our time to 'fall off the perch', that's it. Unequivocally!
In most cases, we're not such a terrible loss to the world. But to our immediate family, perhaps ?

But what about say, a very gifted Medical Doctor (I'm thinking of such a man murdered in Sydney twenty odd years ago?). What an absolute waste ! This man dedicated his life to the service of humanity, and all of a sudden... it was simply 'snuffed' out by a gunman's bullet. How can this atrocious crime be reconciled or justified in one's mind ? It can't, it's as simple as that!

I really wish you and your fellow Christians were right. Regrettably, your not I'm afraid. Anyway, more power to you BOAZ David.

BOAZ_David,

Here are a couple of references to the 23rd Psalm item. There are several others but they are repetitive.

http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html#horus
http://www.freethinkerscs.com/articles/myth.html

Although not EXACTLY alike, the "core" Sargon/Moses factor (ie the endangered child set afloat in a reed basket and the rescue and subsequent rise to prominence in a royal court) is more than pure chance.

According to Joseph Campbell - an American mythology professor, writer, and orator best known for his work in the fields of comparative mythology and comparative religion -

"The story of Moses is also based on the Tamarian myth called Meeses. The Babylonian myth is similar. Tamarian myth, had the Pharaoh’s son, Meeses, climb the mountain or pyramid, called "Mount I and I."
Moses climbed Mount Sinai. After forty days and nights Meeses came down with the new laws but saw his people weren’t ready for them So he cast them out into the desert for forty years.
Until they came unto the land of milk and honey, which was the Nile.

Incidentally, any religion which uses “amen” at the end of any prayer, exposes the origins of their faith. Semitic, Judaic and Christian religions are rooted in the Tamarian civilization.
Contrary to popular belief, ancient Egypt never subscribed to slavery. At least not until Julius Caesar took the Pharaoh, Cleopatra. Women were land owners, tax paying, free citizens.
Contrasting their peers in Rome or in Grecian societies, who were slaves. Three million Jews lived in peace and were sovereign in the great Tamarian age."

As for the source of your earlier rebuttal I think you should be wary of the validiity of the author - James Patrick Holding (aka Robert Turkel ) of Tekton Apologetic Ministries - as these links will show.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/4/024jph.html
http://the-anointed-one.com/exposed.html

You may have noticed by now that all the examples quoted in the posts above have actually been "borrowed" from various sources to create an alternative version of a commonly accepted reality.

Sort of like the argument proving itself?

Graham....thanx for those tidbits... not a strong case by any means, but no need to squabble over that here :)

O Sung Wu.. your kind words are appreciated, and all I can say about me not being too fazed by it all is..from Philippians 2

1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

COMMENT
I constantly fail to meet this ideal, but I do try :) I've also been to Vietnam during the war.. I saw some stuff. For me its simple..God gave us choice and trigger/sword fingers.. we do all the killing. It's our alienation from Him that causes all this.

RACHE..I had a look at the links.. and it's very difficult to know where to begin, but I can assure you, that the evidence of the NT completely rejects such ideas of 'dependance'..for more reasons than I can list here. Thats not a 'stone walling' you can take this debate to newlifeinhim777@yahoo.com.au if you want more interaction on this.

Rache - As I recall it the founders of ancient Rome - Romulus and Remus - took a boat ride too.

The twins were born in secrecy by a fallen princess, put in a wicker basket and sent down the river Tiber. They were found and raised by a wolf until found by a shepherd called Faustulus.

Nice to see that not everybody has their mind rusted shut about some things.

This is just good old religious syncretism, isn't it?

I've actually had PNG highlanders tell me in all seriousness that Jesus was the same guy as in one of their myths, and that the Christian God is the same as their Creator. Mind you, the same people were the first I ever heard talking about the apocalyptic barcode myth - this was pre-2000 and it was all very millenarian, really - and the missionaries had been at them for decades so the stories tended to get mixed up with Revelations and all that other eschatological crap.

Mind you, it was no more fanciful than some of the stuff you read on OLO :)

Christianity has cultural relavence to the society it impacts.

The Christmas tree had Germanic origions. When a Christian missionary went to Germany in the 6th century AD he witnessed the people worshipping under a giant oak tree during the winter solace. They would bake a pudding containing a coin and feed the pudding to their children the child that received the coin was to be sacrificed to the god to bring new life. When the oak tree put foward its first sign of life it to them indicated the god has accepted their prayers and sacrifice.

The Christian missionary was so discusted with the sacrifice of their children he decided to cut down the giant oak during the night. When he cut down the oak he noticed at its roots grew a small fir tree. He stood on the stump of the oak and declared their god was dead; he worshipped a God who lived forever. Using the analogy of the diference between the two trees (The oak is deciduous the pine ever green), he was able to convince the people to abandon their practise of child sacrifice.

From that day the child that received the coin was considered particularly blessed as their life was spared to serve their new God. Hense the development in a local culture of significance of things like Pine trees at Christmas and puddings containing coins. They are not in the Bible but they have cultural significance. Taken from a pagan practise and given new meaning. If it was not for Christianity they may still be sacrificing children.

Atheists are obsessed with history rather than spirituality. The principles of true spirituality remain regardless of who said them. The Christian God is revealed (incarnate) in humanity by pure character, wholesome attitudes, behaviour that enhances and gives life, and the best of wisdom. To Christians Christ Jesus exactly espresses these divine qualities. It is in these qualities that God is revealed. God is not exclusively only revealed in people who call themselves Christian. However for me Christ is the one I learn and trust in as fully revealing the true nature of God incarnate. Ill follow him.

Philo: "If it was not for Christianity they may still be sacrificing children."

Well thank God for that Christian missionary. Since then Europe has lived happily ever after.

I always wondered abou the real story behind Christmas trees. Just as well Philo knows the truth. Now I want to know the truth about the pigs that keep flying past my window.

Kind of like the origins of Krikkit eh philo?

It makes one wonder how our pagan ancestors made it through a decade with all that sacrificing kids and everything.

What a load of bollocks.

Bugsy,
I suggest you do some research rather than dismiss facts that can be accredited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Boniface

http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02656a.htm

Thanks for that, Philo.

Right up there with Beowulf, Tolkien and T. H. White.

All icons in culture had a spiritual beginning, like the ashes in cricket. That some choose not to believe the adaptation of the icon into a new culture does not dismiss the fact. It rather reflects their untelligent attitude of how social culture is formed.

That Australia has fireworks at most significant events had a beginning and it has now become a cultural tradition. To not have them is considered untraditional and may become in time if not part of celebration - unnaustralian. Other cultures like the Chinese have been doing it for centuries - does this mean we have merely adopted Chinese Culture.