Infections and economic damage seem to be lower in Sweden than in other countries.

"Evidence is mounting that Sweden has beaten the coronavirus with herd immunity rather than a lockdown, according to a renowned expert on the spread of disease.

Sweden’s infection rate has remained low and stable at a time when other European countries are facing a strong resurgence.

In Britain, there are 69 cases per 100,000 people compared with 28 per 100,000 in Sweden, which did not implement strict lockdown measures in the northern spring. The infection rate in France is almost seven times higher than in Sweden, and in Spain ten times higher.

Kim Sneppen, professor of biocomplexity at Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, told the Politiken newspaper: “There is some evidence that the Swedes have built up a degree of immunity to the virus which, along with what else they are doing to stop the spread, is enough to control the disease.”

they probably don't call any little cough Cocid-19.

Shadyminister,

Why don't you migrate to Sweden. I'll help you pack.

Swamp donkey,

For someone purporting to be educated you act like a 5-year-old. I assume that you act like a fwit because you lack the IQ to actually engage on the topic.

Surely we cannot expect all the World wide political half-wits to admit their universal mistake?
A bold experiment in fascism in Victoria and a complete melt down of our Federation is great for the tin pot premiers of our individual states. This is the most fun they have ever had. I hope everyone of them loses their seat when next up for election.

Shadyminister,

There is a good reason that explains all the things that are bad about me: I am an engineer.

I remember one Swede predicted that its approach will prove the most successful after a year.

We shall see.

individual's short comment should remind us that we know nothing at all the about the efficiency of hundreds of people dressed in plastic and toy box welding masks shoving cotton buds up motorists noses and in their gobs, then sending the buds off somewhere where who knows what happens to be tested. It's all a circus. The idiots running the circus don't care how well Sweden did, or how much better Taiwan did; their egos are more important than truth. They are not going to admit they were wrong and continue to be wrong. There are parallels with the fear, incompetence and brutality of Stalinist Russia in Australia, particularly in Victoria, where the Commissars haven't even wondered why their socialist state is so different from all other Australian states - even the Labor ones.

Swamp donkey,

You are to engineering what Stephen Hawkings was to athletics

Lockdown failed. We must follow the Swedish model and learn to live with Covid... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/19/uk-needs-follow-swedish-model-learn-live-covid/

Or we could continue down the path of treating 65 yr olds as dangerous criminals.... http://twitter.com/i/status/1307343400102838273 (only in Victoria could that be considered reasonable).

Or sending out platoons of cops to arrest bikini-clad women....
http://twitter.com/YellowCube7/status/1307272436430192640/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1307272436430192640%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcatallaxyfiles.com%2Fpage%2F2%2F

They had her surrounded so that...um...um...oh FFS this is so bonkers that it can't even be parodied

The Swedish model was panned by grumblers on this forum for not taking the same drastic action as other countries, and certainly initially they suffered many more infections and deaths but given that this is a marathon for which the finishing line is not even in sight, it is beginning to look like the Swedes have pulled far ahead not only in managing the infection but in protecting their economy.

Australian politicians are now too hooked on the power of fear to admit that they have done all the wrong things with the China virus. All the blather about thousands of people dying never came true, so the poor silly sheep are convinced that the actions of dictators have saved them. With cunningly worded poll questions, the baa baas have been convinced that crooks like Andrews and incompetent wets like Morrison have saved them.

Coronavirus has been the gw con on steroids. Only one or two conservatives with the guts and integrity to stand up to this nonsense. This con job has been obvious for a long time as China laughs at the fools who listened to the 'experts'. Cowardly politicians threw away their brains while Premiers loved the power and the sheep really believing these ones saved their lives. To think we are meant to be the educated generation!

Yes, it's very possible that the two hundred thousand Americans who are 'supposed' tpv have 'died' from this 'virus', have all been paid to let themselves be hidden away in underground bunkers for the next few years.

And who would do that ? Obviously, the Chinese would be paying the CDC to do all that.

And why ? To try to embarrass President Trump, of course, and bring in the communist Democrats. Fauci and Redfield are secretly working for the Chinese and the communist Democrats.

This whole thing has been, like Runner so eloquently points out, a con. Nobody is dying of any virus. Nearly a million deaths around the world are really from other causes.

And even if the virus is 'real', it's no worse than a cold. And anyway, we've all got to die some time, so why not now ? And anyway, it's all a matter of building herd immunity. Death is for losers anyway.

Sometimes, it is so obvious that I could spit.

Joe

From what I have seen on Sweden, the one major regret was not doing more early on to protect the elderly in aged people homes, albeit they did address this weakness several months ago.

I observed this information on SBS show highlighting Swedish approach.

yep the only pandemic ever where you need to be tested to find out if you have it. The real pandemic is the stupidity of people who believe lock downs and promoting of tyranny is the answer to this nonsense. Why have not the 'experts' stopped people driving cars or eating sugar! Yep never such a dumbed down mob.

The discussion on herd immunity is interesting as plainly it's difficult to stop the Corona Flu dead for an extended period of time. It seems that everyone will get Corona eventually but hopefully it will occur in a spaced out in a way so that there is sufficient nursing capacity to keep the people alive. Notice those countries with greater per capita nursing care seem to have a lower death rate. Going back to the Spanish Flu Pandemic shows some interesting things. Densely populated cities have greater challenges

Chris,

Yes that's very true.

We tend to forget it now, but back in the early days of the virus, there was little understanding of the way it is primarily an old persons disease. The normal flu tends to affect the ages equally and the Spanish Flu disproportionately affected the young.
It was assumed the WuFlu would have similar characteristics.

Sweden has a somewhat larger aged population than its cohorts and thus was more susceptible. By the time they realised this, it was already too late. So, much of their suffering was in the community that, with better knowledge would have received special care.

I also saw some interesting analysis of the 'dry tinder' theory. That is, that Sweden had a higher proportion of people especially susceptible to any adverse infections. The theory based on the data is that Sweden's older population had suffered less in the past flu seasons than similar populations elsewhere and therefore Sweden had a more people with potentially fatal co-morbidities than similar nations....
http://www.aier.org/article/swedens-high-covid-death-rates-among-the-nordics-dry-tinder-and-other-important-factors/

Hi Chris,

Yonks ago, in the mid-eighties, I was researching patron-client systems, and of course social systems around the Mediterranean. Some writers, especially Jeremy Boissevain, Silverman, Banfield, (and James C. Scott in relation to S-E Asian countries) contrasted Mediterranean and Scandinavian societies, to try to understand at least partly why there seemed to be less political corruption in Scandinavian countries.

Writers highlighted the out-door living of people in Mediterranean societies, the 'friendliness' and sociality of the people there - compared to the more abrupt, reserved nature of Scandinavians in their much less congenial climate. In Mediterranean societies, there was/is much more mutuality and almost compulsive sharing and reciprocity - you do me a favour, some day I'll do you a favour; and vice versa - while in Scandinavia, people may be more self-sufficient, more 'indoors', more into nucleated families, even more individualist.

So it could be that, in all Scandinavian countries, social distancing is more 'natural', more everyday. Of course, that doesn't explain away the poor record of Sweden compared to other Scandinavian countries in relation to this virus.

Just a thought :)

Joe

Joe, that is an interesting observation.

Differences between cultures might also explain why certain Asian societies have been more successful.

They also learned from SARS experience.

In a highly individualised country like the US, already with a distrust of govt, it was always going to be much harder limiting virus numbers, especially in certain states.

at moment, Sweden 580 deaths per million, Australia 33, UK and USA around 610

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Hi Chris,

And maybe one reason why the virus might have hit Sweden harder than, say, iceland or Finland, is that it is perhaps much more cosmopolitan than the other Scandinavian countries, especially Stockholm vis-a-vis Oslo or Helsinki or Reykjavik.

Almost invariably, when this virus has struck in a country, it has hit the most cosmopolitan areas first, and hardest: New York rather than Soggy Bottom ALB, London rather than Stoke Poges, Paris rather than Grand-Cul-des-Marais, Sydney rather than Oodnagalarby.

Joe

Canem Malum,

No one is safe until we get a vaccine.

Although I must admit China was able to fix the problem (BULLSH!T).

Sweden 2.0 = United States of America - as 'liberated' by the Trumpster.

Maybe Sweden has achieved some level of herd immunity, but what have/had they been doing to restrict virus transmission?
And, their death rate has been shocking!

Perhaps they are mostly sensible people who wore masks religiously and maintained social distancing and didn't just treat the virus as 'business as usual'?
And, I don't think they go to the beach much - bikinis or trench coats? And, maybe they stay home a lot?

And anyway, 'herd immunity' has not yet actually been 'proven' to be sustainable.

One the other hand, almost all of Oz has mostly 'restricted' virus spread/infection due to good management - including effective tracing and isolating.
Melbourne = Dan the Man = an 'entitled' populace = stupidity on steroids.
Actions speak louder ...

What is the main religion in Sweden? Maybe they're 'blessed'?
Could God be sharing the Nth Pole with Santa?

Anyway, California combusting at 121 fahrenheit (122F = 50Celsius) - that's hot! And, that's in early Autumn/Fall.
Our mid-Summer 103F? (39.4C) and hot hot hot = 45C?
But Climate Change is a myth? Just like 'evolution', and Covid!

What else can we debunk? The Moon is really made of cheese?
Donald Trump really is a Christian who cares more about everyone than for himself?
Daniel Andrews is really the best leader since Attila the Hun?
Israel is really a Presbyterian State?
Politics in the US does not try to 'engineer' the Judiciary - and especially not The High Court!

There's obviously no hope for some Conspiratorial minds - or 'fake' believers.
(Oh, and maybe there will never be an effective vaccine?)

Saltpetre,

Has it occurred to you that the 'scientists' are pussy-footing around, making out that they're 'trying to find a vaccine', when there is no actual virus anyway ? It's all been a Chinese/CDC/Democrat communists con, like Runner so perceptively has highlighted ?

There's no virus, so there's no need for a vaccine. I think that's how the logic is supposed to go.

And anyway, it's mild, no worse than the flu.

And anyway, only old people get it.

And anyway, we all have to die some time.

And anyway, disinfectant fixes it, and strong lights.

And hoxydoxychlorofine.

And anyway, it will disappear, like by magic. Certainly, by next Easter.

And anyway, if we didn't do any testing, we wouldn't find any cases. So nobody would be dying from this virus. Not that anybody is, it's all a Chinese/CDC con.

And anyway .....

Joe

Chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell suggests that
the high rate in Sweden was related to the failure
to prevent infections in care homes. Half of
Sweden's deaths were in care homes up to mid-May.
He says that matters have now been improved.

However it should not be implied that Sweden did not
have a lockdown. It did. It was just largely voluntary
with only a few legal measures such as a ban on
gatherings of more than 50 people.

"Voluntary restrictions work as well as legal ones"
says Anders Tegnell. And we also need to remember that
many of the countries that fared worst including the
UK, Spain, and Italy rely heavily on tourism, unlike
Sweden.

It is not over yet. Sweden has not relaxed its
approach at all.

I wonder what impact climate &/or living standards have on COVID-19 in various countries ?
What will the pollution factor be from all the plastic products used & discarded due to COVID-19 ?

Foxy "its not over yet" well spotted. Chinese Andrews can lock us down some more until he gets rioting in the street and the gestapo Vicpol putting it down!
What happens when we relax? Think about it? Really think! It will re-surface and more old people on their last legs will die just as will happen anyway. The MSM and pollies have so much invested in ruining our economy they will cheer it on. Bring on the depression we deserve and the socialists will love so much!
Vaccine for the common cold (A Corona virus) how is that going? Australia will waste billions of borrowed dollars on a vaccine for Covid 19, money well spent?

It is now proven that high Vitamin D levels help in reducing the severity of corona virus infection.

The Swedes, & northern Europe often have low vitamin D due to their climate & lifestyle. With this in mind it is reasonable to see the Swedish results as pretty good.

why the Albury Wodonga area is shut down beggars belief given there is hardly ever a coronavirus case here.

Hasbeen,

I'm not sure that's true.

I think its been satisfactorily proven that low levels of vitamin D significantly increases the risk that a WuFlu infection will escalate, but that that increased risk doesn't apply if you have normal levels of D.

So low levels are a risk but high levels are no better than normal levels.

But since D supplements are basically risk free (within reason) why take the risk. That's why I've got all the octogenarians in my care on 2000 IU supplements.

mhaze,

All these octogenarians you are looking after ..... are they your grandchildren?

Sweden clearly underestimated the effect Covid would have on old age homes nearly as much as Victoria did where the majority of fatalities also occurred.

However, unlike Victoria, a harsh lockdown was not required and the economy did not suffer nearly as much. In fact, most of the downturn was not induced internally but due to lack of demand elsewhere in Europe.

Daniel Andrews claims to be taking the advice of "experts", suggesting that all experts say the same thing. But these people called experts are always arguing with each other. There is NO CONSENSUS AMONG EXPERTS. The fact that different parts of Australia and the world have taken different actions makes this clear (but not to Andrews). And, making Andrews look even shonkier, both the chief health officer and police commissioner recently denied that they had given certain advice to the fibber, who then had to admit that he had not told the truth.

And, remember "experts" are often wrong: Paul Earlich and his starvation death of 65 million Americans by 1980, due to the population bomb; and the American Psychiatric Association's pronouncement up to the 1970s that being gay was a mental disorder. Then, there are all the "expert" assurances that there would be ridiculous numbers of deaths due to the China virus, that we would run out of respirators and ICU beds. All proved nonsensical.

Experts have a poor record - almost as bad as that of the politicians hiding behind them and blaming them for what, in many cases, are purely political actions.

Hi, suggest you all check out Botswana. Its death rate would put Australia to shame, and while it has had lockdowns, they have been for much shorter periods of time, and there appears to be a lot less regulation. The economy grew in the first quarter this year, but figures are not out for the second quarter.

They are the quiet achiever in Africa, and have a climate not much different to north-western Australia, which also has had low infection rates. Suggesting that not everything comes down to government policy either, nature plays a part.

It's also the case that they have very few people over 70, partly because of an AIDS epidemic a couple of decades ago. That might also mean that a lot of people are on antiretrovirals, and perhaps that explains low infection rates as well because they might protect against COVID-19, just as they protect against the AIDS virus.

'That might also mean that a lot of people are on antiretrovirals'

yes Graham as numerous studies showed that hydroxychloroquine would of saved numerous lives however the fools with tds would prefer political points in favour of life. Not surprising as most with tds have no conscience in killing unborn kids. Oh well Trump has done a great job considering the democrat mayors sending covid into old people's homes and banning hydroxychloroquine.

Check out Botswana. GDP per capita $7,859...Australia $53,825. Would appear Botswana is a very poor country in Africa. With a population of 2.3million it claims to have tested 156,000, about 66,000/1m for 2,500 positives and 13 reported deaths, Australia 7,400,000 290,000/1m for 27,000 positives and 859 reported deaths. Noting that Botswana has a very low GDP per capita spending on health is about 5.4% or $871 per person, providing 39 doctors per 100,000 citizens. Australia 9.6% of GDP at around 170 billion pa $6,800 per person and 327 doctors per 100,000.

I don't think there is much to compare Botswana to Australia when it comes to Coved-19. Botswana with very limited health resources may well have a very poor testing regime and equally poor track and trace procedures in place. The official number of deaths at 13 is also rather questionable. With a low population density of 4/km2, and the largest centre of population at around 250k the Bots are ripe for social distancing and a fair outcome from the virus.

Paul,

While it is difficult to compare countries,

Botswana has a higher density than Aus, with the majority of the population also concentrated in the cities. Relatively Botswana is not that poor and comparatively wealthy in Africa with a relatively competent medical system.

Notably, Botswana suffered a nearly 30% infection rate and has the wherewithal to treat infections with antivirals.

It's difficult to know the truth here, but I have seen several sources say that Africa is by far the highest user of HCQ in the world, since it is cheap and easily obtained. It is said that they use it in quantities similar to our use of aspirin.
In many parts of Africa, including Botswana, HCQ is apparently available over the counter, primarily as an anti-malarial but used for other purposes as well.

This is being touted as one explanation as to why the WuFlu hasn't exploded on that dark continent....

http://nypost.com/2020/09/04/scientists-cant-explain-puzzling-lack-of-coronavirus-outbreaks-in-africa/

If doctors were allowed to prescribe HCQ, there would be no need for economy-crushing lockdowns. Australia is ruled by idiots.

Foxy,

The Green's policies are so superficial that they are essentially a collection of feel good wishes with no thought to implementation or consequences.

Her virtue signalling of breast feeding in parliament is no better than pauline hanson's wearing of a burka.

PS.

I meant that Botswana suffered a nearly 30% HIV infection rate.

New York Mayor still having among the highest death rates in world despite harshest lockdowns. Time a few conservatives got off their backsides and expose the myth of lockdowns saving lives.

Hi Runner,

Is your last post a hang-over from April ? Ah, the days of innocence ! Now, more than 200,000 deaths from Trumnpf's virus :( You know, the one that he said was like a flu, and would be gone by Easter, and anyway it would soon just disappear ? Yes, that one.

I really do think that Trumpf has an extreme fear and dread of sickness and death, i.e. his own. He doesn't worry so much if it's other people, but he is careful to wear a mask (otherwise a symbol of disease) when he's near sick people. But he'd rather not have to think about disease and death at all, so he downplays it, puts it out of his mind ASAP.

With another thousand Americans dying each day from the virus, and 41 days to go to the Nov 3 Election (our time), it's possible that another forty thousand or more could die on Trumpf's watch. Not his business. He's leaving all that nasty stuff about death and disease up to the governors and mayors. He's off to one of his golf courses.

So let's say 240,000 American deaths by Nov 3.

Biden will have a huge task cleaning up Trumpf's mess. He'll probably he relieved to hand it over to President Harris.

Joe

really Joe I think about the only possible good to come out of a win by the lying corrupt democrats is you might lose your tds! The world will suffer immensely however you might be able to think rationally again.

A few more facts about the Wuflu just released by the CDC...

IFR (Infection fatality Rate) ie the percent who die after being infected (best estimate):
0-19 years..... 0.003%
20-49 years.....0.02%
50-69 years.....0.5%
70+years....... 5.4% (note: for statistical reasons this might be an under-estimate for this age group.)

For reference best guess IFR for the common flu is 0.1%.

So for anyone under 50 this is way less dangerous than the common flu. (Queue the howls).

Some more stats...
These are from the USA but probably apply here as well.
The median length of stay in a nursing home before death was 5 months. 65% died within one year of admission (God's waiting room indeed). So, statistically, more than half of the people in nursing homes were going to die this year, whether it be from WuFlu or myriad other causes. Make of it what you will.

If you have a friend/relative in a nursing home, go visit them when the lockdowns ease. Not just for their well-being but to see for yourself that those numbers make perfect sense.

Runner,

You have me confused - you use the term 'tds', meaning, I suppose, Trumpf Delusional Syndrome: Trumpf presides over the worst Covid situation in the world - i.e. in the most prosperous country in the world with the most advanced technology in the world - with more cases and deaths than India, which has more than four times as many people - and yet you think he's some sort of god who can do no wrong.

A few other things:

* he grabs any pussy he likes;

* he calls dead or wounded soldiers 'losers' and 'suckers';

* he sucks up to whatever dictator who he thinks he can get something from;

* now he threatens not to recognise the results of the coming election, if he doesn't win, and implies that he might incite armed groups out onto the streets.

In summary, he demeans the USA, and has made it a much weaker power in the world. Do you hate the USA like that too ?

So I'm wondering who has TDS ?

But thanks for the term, it's quite useful if it's used correctly.

Joe

I am writing a piece on why the rise of Trump should wake up Australia from its policy slumber. I will avoid personality politics even though I generally believe he is a ….ing tool.

But on OLO, this partisan support for Trump as if he is some kind of demi-god that will save the US and the world is more stupid than anything I have read from the left.

Well Chris Lewis you really must get out and read more.
Trump, for all his imperfections will save the US. The Democrats and the filthier MSM are subjecting working Americans to what amounts to destruction. Marxist BLM inciting violence on the streets and protected by Democrat politicians are murdering many people but they have not been disarmed. A rising from US workers will soon see the scum swept of the streets.
Trump did not demean dead soldiers Joe and you should be ashamed of yourself for perpetrating such a horrible lie. There is nothing these filthy media types will not say and if the left want war then they will certainly lose it!
Also Joe the Covid "Situation was caused by democrat govenor's shipping covid patients back into aged care homes from hospitals. This ensured thousands died courtesy of their actions aided and abetted by the MSM>

I have read an article in The Los Angeles Times.
I found it rather frightening. Here's what it
had to say:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2019-10-20/trump-failures-outrages

Hi Jeb,

I think you've drunk too much of the Trumpf Devotional Syndrome Kool-aid :)

Joe

Ok JB, excuse my ignorance.

Joe

'* he grabs any pussy he likes; - Biden sticks his fingers in

* he calls dead or wounded soldiers 'losers' and 'suckers'; when even his hater Bolton has no recollection

* he sucks up to whatever dictator who he thinks he can get something from; - you mean like Obama giving Iran billions

* now he threatens not to recognise the results of the coming election, if he doesn't win, and implies that he might incite armed groups out onto the streets. - you mean like the lying liberal media and democrat tantrums for 4 years

In summary, he demeans the USA, and has made it a much weaker power in the world. Do you hate the USA like that too ? You mean by giving Paris the finger and giving US the cheapest energy

So I'm wondering who has TDS ? You prove my point clearly. You have swallowed the koolaid although I don't think you are that stupid. Just dishonest.

runner,

Why don't you read what the LA Times has to say.

It's all there on record and documented.

And it's NOT "fake news"! As Trump would have
you believe.

You need a reality check.

'Why don't you read what the LA Times has to say.'

about as much integrity as your abc Foxy! Zilch. And even if a quarter was true about Trump it certainly does not place the hopelessly dishonest and corrupt Kamala in any place to steal away any leadership. Someone as dishonest, nasty and treacherous who would lie about, demonise a man like Kavanaugh has earned less respect than a prostitute.

at the end of the day, the US people will decide Trump's fate very soon.

the US people will decide Trump's fate very soon.
Chris Leiws,
They could quite possibly decide their own fate instead !

In the real democratic world it is about elections and who wins power.

Trump had his go, and now it is time for the people to decide.

Don't you agree. I would like to think OLO readers all support democracy

Hi Chris,

As long as everybody who is legally able, who can vote, and in the manner that they choose - by post, in person or otherwise.

And as long as the count is fair and impartial, no matter how long it takes. After all, the inauguration of the next President doesn't take place for around eighty days after the election. Plenty of time to count the vote carefully and impartially.

As long as obstacles are not placed in the way of voters - as long as everybody voting in person does not have to wait in long queues in what is really early Winter, on a bloody Tuesday afternoon (who devises these stupid rules ?) and as long as every voting precinct has equitable numbers of voting machines, and that they all work.

So many ways for the Trumpfites to rig this election !

Wouldn't it be easier for people to take Trumpf's lead - and vote by post ? In fact, wouldn't Trumpf need extra proof that his vote was indeed his, given that there would be so many people quite happy to fake his vote ? A bit late now, but wouldn't it have been easier for the system if he had voted in person ?

Still, if he can lodge a postal vote, why can't everybody ? Isn't the US a democracy ?

Joe

I have got to hope that the US will prove above any dodgy stuff.
I have faith that there is enough decent US players on both sides to ensure a proper election outcome.

Assuming this, my sentiment stands.

If Trump wins, so be it.

I would like to think OLO readers all support democracy
Chris Lewis,
I'd support it if it were available !
However, going by past performance & behaviour it's the pro-democracy outfit that vehemently opposes majority rule at every turn !
Just look how ugly they get when it doesn't go their way !

Individual,

Do you ever read over what you write ?

Wouldn't majority rule mean democracy ? Or am I so naive as to believe that ?

Majority rule - whoever wins, that's the President-elect.

Democracy surely means that ? Yes, yada yada, the Electoral College numbers vs. the total number of votes notwithstanding. The system over there says it's the Electoral college. Let's run with that.

Otherwise, what crackpot notion are you entertaining ? What do YOU mean by 'majority rule' if not democracy ?
,
Joe

Chris Lewis I am with you on whoever wins the election. I also believe there will be dodgy goings on as there always have been. In the past JFK got the mafia votes and won, allegedly. I am sure he was not the only one on both sides.
The postal service is not something I would particularly trust but take a leaf out of our book. Open polling stations a week before and reduce the rush and ensure as many people are given the opportunity to cast their vote.

Wouldn't majority rule mean democracy ? Or am I so naive as to believe that ?
loudmouth2,
You are correct in thinking that. In majority rule i.e. Democracy, small splinter parties & organisations theoretically accept & abide by that rule.
Again, theoretically they don't go out & demonstrate against majority rule/decision.
Do you really think that oppositions adhere to that principle ? Imagine if Labor in Australia were to abide by what the Coalition Govt legislates ? Imagine the Tax Dollars saved instead of squandered on dealing with the distractions & sabotage by the opposition & exploited by the mainly Labor supporting bureaudroids.
Democracy means that decisions by Govt are accepted & respected. The only reason why Govt make bad decisions at times is because of opposition sabotage & interference & not by way of a democratic process. Opposition supporting bureaudroids should not be in Govt positions.
Same should apply to when Labor is in power. Fill all the bureaucrat positions with Conservatives !

Individual,

No. Democracy , in this sort of situation, means that everybody who is registered to vote, can vote, and as freely as anybody else, and whoever gains the most votes, is elected.

It does NOT mean that everybody, from then on, has to agree with whatever crap the elected person wants - in a democracy, everyone has the free-speech right to DISagree.

In a democracy, everyone has the right to express their opinion about any issues, and any organised Opposition - in Australia currently, the Labour Party - has the right to disagree with the ruling party's policies. Of course, it would work the other way too - if the Labour Party was in power, i.e., elected properly with a majority of seats - the Coalition - in fact anybody elected - would have the right to disagree with the ruling party.

That's democracy. Democracy is NOT dictatorship. Sorry, Individual.

Joe

'Don't you agree. I would like to think OLO readers all support democracy'

you would think so Chris but after 4 years of tantrums, fake Russian and Ukraine collusion you don't seriously believe that the lying liberal media and the democrats accept democracy. They have shown the opposite.

loudmouth2,
I agree re the Right to disagree however, disagree does not translate into Right to sabotage !
Sabotage is what the Left is practicing from social to economic !

Dear Shadow Minister,

You claimed;

“Infections and economic damage seem to be lower in Sweden than in other countries.”

What a crock as usual.

Please compare horses for horses. Of the 4 geographically similar Scandinavian countries Sweden suffered the worse June quarter drops.

Finland 4.5%
Norway 5.1%
Denmark 6.9%
Sweden 8.5%

And Sweden did do lockdowns. It closed its major industries something which did not happen in Australia. It also closed high schools and universities.

And here is the comparison of deaths per million people in the respective countries.

http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=2020-01-31..latest&country=NOR~SWE~ISL~DNK~FIN&region=World

A reminder that unlike Denmark it isn't attached to countries with significant infection rates. Rather it is squeezed between two with markedly low rates.

Black really is white for you isn't it. Do try to do better.

According to Trumpf; "America is doing better than any other country, with the possible exception of Botswana."

The worlds most successful country when it comes to the coronavirus is Tuvalu, no infections, no deaths, no virus. Not dissimilar to the north west corner of South Australia, except for the odd shower of rain and possibly having a little bit more coast line, the Tuvalains (natives of Tuvalu) have been basking in the sun, fishing, surfing, gathering coconuts, whilst the rest of us have been in lockdown. The Tuvalains have not had as much as a sniffle, a sneeze or even a cough. When asked by reporters; why he hadn't locked down the capital Funafuti during the pandemic? Tuvalu's PM, Mr Sopoaga, said "As the name will tells you, Funafuti is a fun place, and having fun, lazing in the sun, is the best defence against them nasty old viruses."...Prime Minister Sopoaga went on to say; "Tuvalu is doing better than any other country, with the possible exception of the United States."

Foxy

I had a quick look at the LA Times article you posted. Do you realise its marked 'Opinion' and is almost a year old?

But the timing couldn't be sweeter. The crux of the article is about the impeachment of Trump over the Ukrainian phone call. Which we now know was shown to be a nothing-burger. But just yesterday, a new report was released from the Senate showing just how corrupt the Biden family is and why the impeachment was used to try to stop the government from looking into that corruption.

Foxy, I know that the people you rely on to tell you what to think won't have mentioned this report to you so it'll come as a hell of a surprise. But if you can bring yourself to look at the truth for a change, there's more than enough out there about the Biden corruption - false payments, bribes, human trafficking, prostitutes.

Or you could just say you'd prefer not to know these things, as usual.

http://www.scribd.com/document/477154100/FINAL-DRAFT-CLEAN-COPY-4-pdf

Loudmouth,

By my reckoning, I've now mentioned this to you four times - the states, not Trump or the feds, control the voting system. So when you say "So many ways for the Trumpfites to rig this election !" that's simply wrong. Not a little wrong, not partially right but utterly wrong.

But you don't what that to be true, so carry on.

As to mail in voting...
Mail ballots from the overseas military found in the trash in Pennsylvania. All were votes for Trump.

I can't imagine why the GOP are worried about mail-in voting.

Hi Mhaze,

Yes, you're right, there are many, many ways to subvert the democratic process in the US, and some of those are within the purview of state governors (and mayors and local governments) to control and combat.

Which is why there will probably be disputes between some governors and Trumpf between now and Nov 3. 40 days away.

I anticipate also major disputes between Trumpf and the Electoral Commission chairperson, Ellen Weintraub - for example, like this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election/trump-mail-ballot-biden-election-electoral-commission-ellen-weintraub-b572434.html

And Trumpf being a bully from birth, I expect he will browbeat her and the Commission in all manner of ways over the next few weeks.

Only 40 days to go :)

And by the way, there is no rush: the final results won't be approved by Congress until around January 6th. And there have been many times in US history when the final results of voting weren't known for weeks, so there is no 'trumped-up' excuse for Trumpf to demean the electoral process. And as a candidate, he has no power to dictate how the election is to be conducted, that would be the job of the Congress.

Joe

mhaze,

Who tells you what to think?

cont'd ...

The LA Times article may be over a year old but the
facts dealing with things that have happened and
are valid and relevant.

Try again.

SR

Once again you have cocked it up.

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https%3A%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F5025ee50-fcfd-11ea-8d10-239658326dea-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700

The graph from the FT clearly shows that while Sweden's infection rate has dropped dramatically over the last 2 months, those of Denmark, Norway and Finland and pretty much the rest of the world is ramping up.

Sweden's economy grew by 0.1% in the Q1 and lost about 8% in Q2 which due to its export-driven industry was almost entirely due to the collapse in external demand while its domestic market is relatively intact, its industries and most schools remaining open.

As for the relative success of Norway and Finland, both of which are tiny countries for which control is easier, the initial successes are looking less stellar now.

Foxy

Well there were precious little by way of facts in the article. Plenty of assertion but few facts.

But much of it has been shown with time to be rubbish. The Burisma claims have been shown to be rubbish by the impeachment trial and the recent disclosures.

And the assertions concerning the Trump foreign policy have been show to be rubbish by the recent Abraham Accords and the Balkan peace initiatives. BTW have you heard that Kosovo/Serbia are talking of renaming a lake after Trump to recognise his peacemaking efforts? I'm sure the LA Times will cover it for you (grin).

Mhaze,

Are you sure that it's a lake ? Not a swamp ?

Joe

mhaze,

I've learned that it's important to know when
to stop arguing with some people and simply
let them be wrong.

Kosovo has named some of their best boulevards after
names of other US politicians -
President Clinton, George Bush, Senator Bob Dole,
Madeline Albright, and others. Albania has done
the same.

The government of Israel has renamed multiple sites after
the Donald as well, including Donald Trump squares in
Jerusalem and Petah Tikva and a community in the
Golan Heights - "Trump Heights". They are also proposing to
name a new train station in Jerusalem - "Trump Station".

And who knows he may even get a Nobel Peace Prize.
We'll have to wait and see.
Politics is so much fun - especially for the winners.
And of course Trump is a winner who can do no wrong in your
eyes. And I guess that is your fact (not assertion).

Here's how Sweden deals with that other Pandemic !

We need that here asap !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDYmHhVYpug&feature=youtu.be

Dear Shadow Minister,

The usual piss poor effort from you again. Come on, did you really think I wouldn't check?

Here is the 7 day rolling average infection rate per million for the 4 Scandinavian countries.

http://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-05-26..latest&country=DNK~FIN~NOR~SWE&region=World&casesMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc

Well look there, Sweden dipped below Norway for a blink in the eye which your graph caught. Denmark, which is attached to central Europe, has a higher rate but it looks like it has stabilised while Sweden's seems to be climbing. Give it a week or two and I guarantee Sweden will be number 1 again.

As to the domestic economy fairing better in Sweden I'm going to have to see your proof on that one. Nothing I have seen supports it.

SR,

Perhaps you should check what you post too.

First, you were crowing how well Denmark was doing, and now you have to eat that crow.

Secondly, as Sweden hasn't closed any its industries, the damage to the local economy is clearly far less though not zero.

That Sweden has reached roughly the same infection rate as its neighbours in spite of being far larger and far less than the rest of Europe shows that the virus can be controlled without the damaging lockdown that has inflicted so much pain in the rest of the world.

Dear Shadow Minister,

It is absolutely mind blowing how ideologically twisted your position is, how denying of reality.

These are the current figures for deaths per million of population in the Scandinavian countries:

Norway 50

Finland 62

Denmark 111

Sweden 582

Yet you are trying to make the argument that “Sweden's corona virus response seems to be the best”.

It's like a Monty Python script. Mate, your parrot is deceased, just like thousands of Swedes who should still be alive.

And how on earth is Denmark required to eat crow when its figures are a fifth that of Sweden?

Unbelievable.

But Steele, Volo's are still rolling off the production line. Be honest you would give your life (to coronavirus) just to own a Volo. Shonkyminister certainly would do anything to replace his 1967 beat up Datsun!

SR,

Check the latest data, Denmark's infection rate has now surpassed the highest rate Sweden ever had. Finland's is also ticking up to record levels.

Try not to let ideology twist you again.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-05-26..latest&country=DNK~FIN~NOR~SWE~FRA~ESP~GBR&region=World&casesMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc

A rampage by far right extremists in London, protesting the latest coronavirus restrictions was closed down by police. Nine police officers were injured by the out of control mob, 16 arrests were made.

Paul all of a sudden "Far Right extremists? Rampages and police injured. BLM Antifa ring any bells. You are just being a silly little girl again, Go home to your dollies!

Well, as far as I know, when one political group is being violent, the other groups don't stop violence altogether. BLM riots being violent doesn't mean a far right one can't be violent, too.

Dear Shadow Minister,

There is no doubt Denmark is having a surge.

Part of the reason the cases are so high in Denmark is because it has decided to go hammer and tongs with its testing. It does so at a rate over 4 times that of Sweden. It aims to test 1% of its population every day.

But the pubs have only just been ordered to close by 10pm. Facemasks are not mandatory, gatherings of up to 50 people are permitted.

http://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-05-26..latest&country=DNK~FIN~NOR~SWE&region=World&testsMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc

They have decided to try and fight the surge mainly through high levels of testing rather than reintroducing lockdown measures. Time will tell if they succeed. If they don't then it will be another reason to celebrate Victoria's approach.

Flanker,

So all Trumpf-supporters have to do is send in a few agents provocateurs to stir up as much trouble as possible. That might give the rest of them excuses to be even more violent than their own agents, to use those bloody great automatics, or drive into crowds.

Oh, wait. They've already been doing that. Nothing much new under the sun.

On the other hand, yes, there would be crazies on the 'left', anarchists who want to tear down all authority (and start again: old ideas never die). Ratbags of both 'left' and right seem to converge when it comes to total destruction, preparing - for their different reasons - for the end of days. And - big surprise ! - those ratbags feed each other, they provoke each other and each gives the other side a rationale for even more destruction.

Strange, it used to be like that in the thirties - both Communists and fascists saw the Labor Party as their major enemy, so I was told. Maybe birds of a feather, some join the extreme 'left', some the extreme right ..... Either way, it's a move towards fascism.

Joe

So JB, its okay to refer to peaceful BLM protesters in emotive terms such as, extremists, communists, terrorists etc. However when the boots on the other foot, and its protesters the likes of you agree with, then to describe them in such terms is a no, no, and one gets a silly rebuke from the hard right. Oh dear.

Hundreds of far right extremists, calling themselves 'Proud Boys' have rallied in Portland USA.. Many came well armed with loaded guns, knives, batons and baseball bats. Some wearing clothing supportive of President Trump. State governor, Kate Brown, declared a weekend state of emergency for the city, saying Friday that “white supremacist groups” were travelling from out of state to attend an event the Proud Boys say was organised to “end domestic terrorism”, police were preparing for violence with the far right extremists. Surprisingly its these very people who are accused of instigating violence at peaceful BLM protests. One should consider, are not these extremists part of the real terrorists problem within the United States.

SR,

You are using the same argument that Trump was and I love the irony. Did you not think that the additional testing was because they were experiencing a second wave?

Still no comment on the vast difference between Sweden and other countries such as the UK, France etc?

Paul,

JB is not referring to the peaceful BLM protesters but the 1000s of violent BLM protesters that assault and kill people and burn property making them far worse than the 100s of proud boys.

Paul all your nonsense cannot hide the fact that when some two bit chiseler takes on the cops in a drug addled haze and dies. Because he mixes his drugs in the same addled state. Then racists in the community start rioting. Looting and burning down businesses whilst the media avert the camera from this disgusting behaviour but stick up for the sleazy woman beating lowlife who died. Also Breonna the drug dealer and her boyfriend opening fire on cops that cost her her life, please.
BLM here in Australia again get a free pass. People get drunk and hurt themselves its our fault? Police take someone drunk into custody they die and it is the police fault? See the problem? Probably not because you are a dense bigot.

JB, nothing in the way of facts, so you resort to the personal name calling; "you (Paul1405) are a dense bigot". You remind me of Trump, has nothing substantive to say, so its the insults and lies to cover the failings. And what far right group of fanatics are you affiliated with, are you one of those gun toting 'Proud Boys?