Life isn't all about money, or is it?

Would you be willing to live without money? Would you be willing to share with others? Would you like more money?

Where does one draw the line and how far does one go to survive?

Not to me it isn't however, not having any money is not in anyone's interest either.
The difference is between need & greed !

Unfortunately we are born into a money success system where people value everything in terms of $$$$.

I strive to live just comfortably where I don't need much money to do so and leaving me time to concentrate on being what I have always wanted to be: one of the most educated people in Australia, which I have achieved. And I wouldn't give that up for all the money in the world.

I would most certainly not object to have my bank account boosted by more figures but I most certainly wouldn't spend my waking hours trying to figure out schemes to help me achieve that !
Although quite limited by average standards, my resources do allow me to pursue the interests meaningful to me.

I have lived on a thousand dollars a year, on my yacht in the Pacific Islands. I traded a couple of the things they wanted, tobacco & fishing gear for food, & caught a lot of my own. Perhaps that is why I don't eat fish EVER today.

Money was still required for yacht maintenance. Engines & sails etc. deteriorate, & a boat won't survive long in the tropics without lots of paint & varnish, expensive stuff thousands of miles away from industrial civilisation.

The locals did not need much, fishing gear, cloth for a simple sarong, grass skirts look good, but are not nice to wear. Batteries for a radio or tape player, & to buy pots & pans. They did lean on the local plantation owner for much. Someone had to run a power house, or no power tools or radio to call for help in a medical emergency. You needed to build & maintain an air strip for those emergencies & to get kids to boarding school, unless you were going to own & maintain an ocean capable boat of some description.

It did cost a lot to acquire a log from a high "volcanic" island suitable to make a canoe, but otherwise life was cheap.

Back in civilisation it is foolish to even talk of living with out a lot of money, when housing costs from $400,000 to $1,000,000 & renting costs over $350 to $600 a week for very modest accommodation.

Today for me again living is cheap, I own everything I really need, & that will see me out if I don't live too long, but if I was in my thirties I would need everything I could earn to set myself up for retirement & old age

A good life is when you do more, need less, smile
often, dream big, laugh a lot, and realize how
blessed you are.

cont'd ...

As I grew older I thought the best part of my life
was over ...

THEN -

I was handed my first grandchild and realized the
best part of my life had just begun!

"I would most certainly not object to have my bank account boosted by more figures but I most certainly wouldn't spend my waking hours trying to figure out schemes to help me achieve that !"

Come on Indy, we the taxpayers boosted it by $1500 recently, didn't object to that did you? Can't boost the aged welfare beyond the present luxury level. Although I'm sure you're working on a scheme to achieve that at this very moment. BTW, this week is "be nice to your public servant" week. How about whipping up a batch of scones and taking them down to the lads at your local 'Centrelink' just to show your appreciation at a job well done.

the taxpayers boosted it by $1500 recently,
Paul1405,
that's a pittance in comparison of the taxpayer Dollars wasted on the likes of you, it makes me shudder to think that I helped pay for your wasting !

And we've been paying the dole bludgers more than the pensioners for a while now don't forget.

Meanwhile be careful of all that dreaming Foxy. That is often the incentive to rush out & buy expensive things, like cars & overseas travel.

Foxy,

I'm happy knowing that I am one of the most educated people in the country and I wouldn't give that up for all the money in the world.

Money is just a tool to use for acquiring goods. Glass beads, shells, wooden carvings, fish and vegetables even exchange of labour would do - has done and still does - in primitive societies even today.

Whatever instrument is used for people to get what they want or need, it is neither good nor bad, not very interesting as a topic,and some people will always have more of it or less of it than some other people.

I was thinking that maybe this is somebody's Year 11 Social Studies project.

Then Misopinionated started going on about being educated, and that clinched it for me. Yep, Year 11.

As a universalist, I look forward to the day, perhaps though not in my lifetime, when everybody doing similar work, anywhere in the world, is paid the same, male and female, Australian, Vietnamese, Italian, American, Chinese, Mozambican, no matter what country they are working in.

Try that for a Year 11 essay :)

Joe

I guess I'm lucky in many ways, I've certainly been told I am in any event? At 80 I'm in receipt of two pensions, one from DVA at 100% (non taxable), and the other, my police pension, which I think I've earned after over 32 years in the job.

I'm not educated like Mr OPINION, NSW Intermediate Certificate, in 1955, nonetheless I think I've done alright. I recall once on this very site one of the contributors alleged my police pension was for doing a cushy job and a life of comparative ease all at the expense of the NSW Taxpayer. I can assure everyone, it was no such thing, and some matters I've had to deal with, I'll carry to my grave. Is life all about money? No, but I'll concede we need money in which to live, without it, life would be tough.

"Money and fame makes me better looking."

me

Dear Hassie,

Yes I am a dreamer. To me humans are the most extraordinary
creatures. If someone asks me what makes me
happiest, it's never anything I can quantify like a house
or a possession. It is the spirit of the human being, which
can fill me with more joy than anything in the world.

They say that a baby smiles an average of seventy-two times
a day and a toddler laughs or smiles six hundred times a
day. We learn to smile very early in life. It is one of the
first things we do after we learn to cry. And how do we learn
to smile? By how much we are smiled at. Does our smile live
somewhere in the double helix of our DNA, or is it nurtured?

Somewhere in there lies the truth. which is - it is nature,
but it must be nurtured. To understand our mother's smile is
to understand our own smile, to know what triggers that
physiological response.

A smile is an indication of a happy heart,
and when you smile it changes your perception.
It can create a better day. As
frivolous as it might sound studies have proven that even
if you don't feel like smiling, if you force yourself to
smile, you will change your state of mind. By doing so you
can actually raise the immune-boosters in your blood.

The question is - where does that smile go? Why is it that
as we grow older we smile less? Could it be that we are
looking for happiness and fulfillment in the wrong places?
Is it fear that stops us from being happy? Have we forgotten
how to seek the simple pleasures that brought us so much
joy as children? To find the spaces between our thoughts
that allow these joyful memories to flood back?

I suppose the key to holding on to that smile is to try to
remember how much you smiled when you were young. Never
forget that dear Hassie, because that smile still lives
in you, no matter how old you are.

Mr O,

Humans are the most extraordinary of creatures, and
a big part of me still wants of reach an even greater
understanding about who we are. The more I learn the
more I realize how little I know. But that's not a bad
thing because it makes me drawn to the process of
discovery.

Money, be it shells or metal bits, or bits of paper with a promise
became essential as soon as more than two people lived near each other.
Trade without money quickly becomes impossible.

Mr O,

Regarding education?

My parents lost everything during WWII.
Their family members, their country, their social
positions. What they did not lose was what was in
their heads - that is - education. And therefore
they stressed to their children the importance of
education and being self-reliant. They taught us
to achieve through education.

Dear Joe,

I too look forward to the day when a person's
individual human qualities, rather than his or
her biological sex, ethnicity, religion, colour,
position, or money,
would be the primary measure of that person's
worth and achievement.

Some people can live on $300 a week, some people can't live on $10,000 a week.

I'm always fascinated how my Fijian friends (in Fiji) they live a happy life on very little money. Okay no ice cream, no chocolates, well only now and then. Life is lay-back and most get by with a simple village life.

Paul1405,

Ask yourself: Are my Fijian friends part of the money success system?

If the answer is 'No' then you have your answer.

FOULmouth,

Unfortunately - for you - you cannot place yourself with the most educated people in the country.

Misopinionated,

God no. I have friends who are much more educated than me. Pity you can't say the same ;)

Foulmouth

FOULmouth,

I expected to see you come back with something stronger than that.

I think for the first time I can claim that you are lost for words.

Which sends a signal to me that you agree that I am one of the most educated people in the country.

Thank you. I truly value your opinion.

Well it either money or bartering for daily requirements. But money or bartering is not the reason for life. Life is about character, and sometimes being without money or product to trade builds humble character, and humility is a value not easily attained when one stands over others. Possessing much can build a proud and arrogant character, one of the deadly sins of society. A person possessing much has to learn to sacrifice his wealth to benefit others to gain real character.

You will not be remembered for how much wealth or education you had, but you will for how you humbly applied these to benefit others.

Josephus,

I just heard through the grapevine that you're not going to heaven.

Apparently you did something to upset the big fellow.

Better luck next time.

And I'll send you a postcard when I get there.

I find the question "is life all about money" largely irrelevant. Money is not an end in itself rather a means to an end be it food, travel, possessions, education, health, housing etc.

Once one has enough money to fulfil one's basic needs, more money does not necessarily make one happier. However, it does give you the ability to pursue activities that give one satisfaction.

I have been lucky enough to make money doing what I love and to be able to buy a comfortable house with a spectacular view, privately educate my kids and travel extensively.

I am eternally grateful that I am not like the swamp donkey that has worked his life in an occupation that he is neither competent nor happy in and has retired to single life in a run-down studio apartment collecting useless degrees to convince himself that he is not a waste of oxygen.

Enough money for me is the amount needed to meet my family's needs.

As things will be tougher in coming years, I also want to have enough to give my daughter a good start and to secure a decent life for myself and mrs given tougher rules of pensions are likely to apply.

For others, the pursuit of money is their hobby, and good luck to them.

Most of my passions are cheap, so I don't need much.

Dear shadyminister,

I am guilty of doing a useless degree: Bachelor of Engineering. Talk about a waste of time and money. The best engineers I have seen in my experience didn't even have a degree.

The only reason I completed the degree was simply because I had started it in the first place. Absolutely worthless exercise in applied mathematics is the only way I can describe an engineering degree.

I recall sitting on the WC at uni and looking down at the tissue holder and just above it someone at scribbled 'ENGINEERING DEGREES - TAKE ONE' - how true!

PS I hope you spent your money getting your children an education and not just vocational training.

....convince himself that he is not a waste of oxygen.
Shadowminister,
Many people become a waste of oxygen because of those to whom ego & greed dictate to not give a damn about those with a better mentality !
Denying someone an opportunity & then exploiting that opportunity oneself & then accuse the other of being a failure is what brought on many of our problems today !
I'd much prefer to see education teaching the real meaning of success !

individual,

You just said: "I'd much prefer to see education teaching the real meaning of success!"

You will only get that by doing an Arts degree.

I see Mr O lives in a cave as a gatherer of useless shells, and wipes his bum on leaves. As everything else has been designed by engineers whom he despises. Obviously he cannot apply conceptual skills in design, except in using sticks. He tried once and failed. Perhaps he has a few skins or shells to trade. All these things the Creator initially gave design to. He has not learned to apply any science too benefit anyone more than himself and his verbal wanderings. He has not moved out of his cave yet, and does not realise there are applied engineering sciences in the 21st century he has not discovered. From diagnosis by this retired farmer he obviously suffers with narcistic bipolar.

Yes arts degrees are wondrous things, just showing one will get you a job in the public service.

Otherwise they are not much use, the paper is too slippery to be much use for the next most likely application.

Swamp donkey,

From your displayed general ignorance in all subjects, I suspect all learning past Std 10 was a waste of money.

I'm sure McDonald's was impressed with your degree in anthropology and how you demonstrated it through interpretive dance.

Mr O, do you ever listen to the ABC when they cross over to a humanities academic and they simply repeat the news of the day and obvious limitations.

Understanding life and human interaction does not require a degree.

Plenty of people who never did humanities subjects know heaps about the world.

I often played down my own academic publications, much to the anger of both left and rightwing professors who obviously felt their overrated work was so important.

I have always viewed academic publications as glorified journalism.

Thoughts Mr O?

Chris Lewis,

I love the Arts things like history, anthropology, archaeology, sociology, philosophy, etc. They seem to be the subjects that most people are fascinated by and I cannot blame them. Could you imagine how bored you would get if you had to listen to the shadyminister telling you about what he does as an engineer.

SM,

What makes you think he's got past Standard 10 ?

Money is surely just a means of exchange. Scrooge McDuck, wallowing in his room full of notes and coins, might be a rare creature. Hmmm, maybe not so rare:

It depends how much you have of it, and what you want to do with it. You could be like Trumpf: a slum-lord, a rack-renter, and croney of major criminals and thugs such as Erdogan, inheriting hundreds of millions and parlaying it into hundreds of millions over forty years; or you could be someone with empathy and compassion, like Mother Teresa or Fred Hollows, who, I'm sure, would have answered their own question: how much is enough ?

I suppose it depends how you want to be remembered: for your love of your own power, or for the love of humanity.

But I must say now that I've put the image into my own head, that Trumpf probably has a huge room in which he periodically wallows in all forms of domestic and foreign currency. I dare not think what's in the next room, but I'm sure she has a nice arse.

Joe

Dear FOULmouth,

It is my 3 Arts degrees that places me as one of the most educated people in the country. It's as simple as that.

Mr O, anyone who loves life, will like the humanities.

But my point is anyone, and everyone, is qualified to talk and know a lot about it

"Life isn't all about money, or is it?"

I used to say that money on its own wont make you happy but it can pay for research to find out what will.
But maybe I was wrong, having money probably does makes one happier than not having money.

Money isn't necessarily evil on its own.
- Like a gun without a finger on the trigger to fire it, harmless
You can do more good things for people if you have money than if you don't have money.

"Would you be willing to live without money?"

It might be an interesting experiment.
Do I think it would work? No.
People are greedy, money creates a universal value.
If you do more hours work and a more skilled job you should get paid more than someone who does less work or work requiring less skills.

Not having that universal value would create more problems and fighting than it solved.

"Would you be willing to share with others?"

Yes of course, but with conditions:

I'd only be willing to share when its within my means.
I should never be expected to share; my sharing should be considered free choice, not obligatory.
I reserve the right to 'not share' without being judged for 'not sharing';
- If I feel (for whatever reason) that 'not sharing' in my own better interests
Sharing occurs under the guise of a hand-up, and my good nature shan't be exploited by anyone who expects a hand-out.

"Would you like more money?"

Yeah sure, are you offering?

"Where does one draw the line and how far does one go to survive?"

Are you asking if its ok to steal food if you're starving?
Might depend on the circumstances.

If its ok to fight for the last parachute on a plane about to crash?
I don't have all the answers.

You only have one life, it has value.
If you believe in God NathanJ, you're one of his children.
He cares about you and wouldn't want harm to come to you.
He might not support your actions if they harmed others.

Seen on a car bumper sticker:

"Money can't buy you happiness
BUT
you can be miserable in comfort!"

Chris Lewis,

I don't care.

All that matters to me is that I am recognised as one of the most educated people in the country.

Why do you think I did those 3 Arts degrees? Get it now?

No.

Mr O, please tell us what you have done for humanity with your superior degrees? Beside Brag about your superior knowledge; which bores everyone.

Chris Lewis,

As long as I'm happy knowing that I am one of the most educated people in the country that's all that matters.

And of course knowing that you all know that am one of the most educated people in the country. That makes me happy too.

I could have ended up like the shadyminister with a handful of vocational degrees. I would be a very unhappy man if I had ended up like him.

Misopinionated,

Strange, I've had some very good doctors over the decades, usually from overseas, and not one of them has ever declared "I've got a medical degree. So I'm very educated, more than almost anybody else in this suburb."

And more strangely, of the wonderful lecturers that I've been taught by, none have gone on and on about how incredibly educated they are. They just did it.

Hmmmm, what was wrong with them ? If you've got it, flaunt it, said Zero Mostel.

Joe

FOULmouth,

A medical degree is a vocational degree for the purpose of training people to perform a job. Similar to engineering, law, architecture, accountancy, etc.

That's not what I mean when I say someone is educated.

If it was then everyone - even including you, Phil, shadyminister, etc. - could claim to be educated.

I can now see your confusion. I think we are on two different levels.

And I'm all the better for it.

You will only get that by doing an Arts degree.
Mr Opinion,
Every no-hoper in authority has an Arts Degree. Every useful professional probably prefers to forget about the process that involved obtaining that Degree.

In other countries you couldn't call yourself an engineer unless you're proven to have brains.

Patrick Deneen and Liz Coleman talk about the Liberal Arts.

My understanding is the Liberal Arts is about the Art of Learning to be Free or the Art of Happiness. It predates the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. But the addition of modern topics appears to have drowned much of the traditions of the Arts through topics such as Post Modern Deconstructivism- that discusses the power dynamic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Deneen_(author)

http://www.ted.com/talks/liz_coleman_a_call_to_reinvent_liberal_arts_education

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

Patrick Deneen and Liz Coleman seem to say that The Arts are a shadow of their former selves and have been replaced by ideology and dogmatism and has become corrupted.

I wouldn't consider Mr Opinion to be especially dogmatic along the lines of any particular ideology however he is proud and probably rightly so to have managed to overcome the hurdles of his numerous degrees.

The Liberal Arts appears to ask questions that people have been asking for thousands of years so that we can achieve a greater understanding of ourselves and what a good life is- if this is true then it is probably a great pursuit.

You could argue that people such as Socrates, the Stoics, the Epicureans were the first traditions in the Liberal Arts.

There's some good material in The Republic.

However I prefer to go back to source material rather than go to university to study the Liberal Arts.

Sadly I'm sure that there are many good people in the University Liberal Arts programs but it is being destroyed by ideology.

It's been said that you don't go to university to learn what to think but how to think- how to be a good citizen, etc- that's apparently where the Liberal Arts comes in.

A lot of what we discuss on Online Opinion probably relates to issues of the Liberal Arts and governing but the Liberal Arts has become corrupted.

Canem Malum,

You are totally correct in what you say although I must say that I never saw any instances of the Arts being corrupted.

For me I wanted to do my 3 Arts degrees simply because I wanted to be an educated person.

And you are right when you say that all the things we discuss on The Forum belong to areas covered by the Arts. We all want to structure our opinions and ideas in terms of the Arts things like history, sociology, anthropology, archaeology, philosophy, etc. and hopefully the Sciences as well.

Because deep down we all want to be seen as educated people who understand how our world works and try to come up with solutions to make our world a better place to live in.

Even the shadyminister, FOULmouth, Phil, and others, would agree with that.

Funny that.

When I was at one university, I met one prominent professor who knew my work only from my OLO writings.

Doubt he would ever read my academic pieces; few do read them.

Academic papers are mostly a boring and biased read.

The humanities tradition will long survive, no matter what happens in the universities.

The swamp donkey has 3 arts degrees

An undergraduate degree in airs and graces
A masters in pretentiousness
A second masters in posing
and I suspect he is working on a Phd in pomposity.

All of the above was done on the taxpayer's dime and has benefited mankind not a jot.

He only posts to troll people and in spite of claiming to be "educated in history" posted a single historical "fact" that was out by more than a century.

Hi Chris,

Don't sell yourself short :) I enjoyed what i could understand of your joint PDF paper on Lindblom:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10361146.2014.954985?casa_token=UZ6f--feYiYAAAAA:NzLvNSHodNU2pxkrzWkl-kYx7Xx567AerBlQ-lRJIGEqe6WUeBpW9wLYh5WZKJHkybQ0pTl-wKrupYs

I've always been partial to Lindblom, especially his demolition of Soviet economic planning in 'Politics and Markets'. So your article was a fitting memorial to him. Thank you.

Joe

Shadyminister,

You forgot to list my worthless engineering degree that isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

I don't think I'll have an opportunity to do the research degree I had hoped to do. The WuFlu pandemic has left the country broke so I doubt I'll get in because there will now be less govt money to go around.

Looks like I'll just have to spend the rest of my life annoying you.

But thanks for the thought anyway.

Joe, I did a lot of research on that article in terms of events related to how tax events played out, but another academic setup theory with Lindblom.

Great to know that you read it.

Swamp donkey,

Any education shines a light into a part of how the universe and humanity function and can be a tool to improve one's life and that of those around you, but in the end, it is not the tools that define you but how you use them. That your engineering (BEng only) was not worth the paper it was printed on is more a reflection on you than it.

That you feel the need to redefine the word "education" and wave these pieces of paper around as if they give you status is just sad.

Finally, the truly educated will explore beyond the strictures of any syllabus and expand their education. I have viewed many of the great art collections in Europe, from Michelangelo to Picasso, Van Gogh to Miro and many in between. I have studied particle physics, wave theory and general relativity, the great wars from the Punic to Korea, generals from Alexander to Rommel, history from the Tudors to Mao. That you have limited yourself to a tiny patch of real estate in the swamp and declare it to be the limit of the universe is a joke that you can't grasp.

shadyminister,

I haven't seen any evidence of you having done anything outside of your vocational studies in engineering, commerce and business admin.

So I doubt very much that you have any worthwhile knowledge of things outside of those areas. What knowledge you do have you probably got from Wikipedia and the History channel.

I reckon you have always wanted to be something like an anthropologist or archaeologist or historian but got stuck working as just an engineer all your life. How sad. But you're not alone.

Swamp donkey,

You haven't seen me do anything because this is an online forum.

Are you retarded.

I am in agreement with shadowminister.

it was you do with your qualifications that count.

Some people do heaps without any, beyond basic year 11 and 12.

Some of the most interesting and astute people I ever met never went to university.

Chris Lewis,

The best engineers I have worked with did not have engineering degrees.

And I am sure the records will show that lots of the great doctors, architects, accountants, and others in vocational fields did not have degrees in their fields.

I think the shadyminister would have turned out to be a fantastic engineer with or without an engineering degree.

But the Arts things like history, anthropology, archaeology, sociology, philosophy, etc. are a different kettle of fish. One definitely needs a degree to qualify in these areas. If someone tells me he/she is an anthropologist for example the first thing I will ask is "What are your degrees?" Someone tells me he/she is an engineer I think to myself "Big deal!"

Mr O, that is where we are different.

I judge a person by what he or she has to say.

Don't care what degrees they have.

Having degrees might mean you were kicking back in the air-con not getting your hands dirty while everybody else is working hard in factories or out in the hot sun, to keep the nation afloat.

In 2020 University is the easy path.
Getting your first job in a factory or labouring in the Aussie sun is not so easy.

White collar are privelidged.
You won't have to take out other peoples garbage
Or clean the public toilets
Or ruin your bodies labouring

Others will clean up after YOU

All of these menial tasks are immediately beneath you.
- But that doesn't mean that someone still has to do them to have the world you enjoy.

University educated people should be forced to do 2 days works of all the crap jobs they think are beneath them, so they don't ever get too far ahead of themselves.

What's it going to be, garbage duty or latrines?

Don't contribute anything useful, no.
Why don't we all become experts in gender studies and what a wonderful world it would be.

Pffftt, whatever you reckon.

Armchair Critic,

Instead of wasting time at uni we can do what you would do or have done: fill in a form and pay $10 with your credit card to get a postal order degree.

That might be alright for someone like you but leave me out please. I'm old school and like doing things the good old fashioned way.

Most uni students that I knew/know worked during
their holidays and did a variety of jobs from
working in factories, in restaurants, in retail,
in wherever they could find employment. So it's
a myth that uni students are only from wealthy families
and that they sit in air-con places and do nothing.

Just as its a myth that all uni students are "educated".
You can lead a person to a university but you can't
make them think - is an old adage but a true one.
The same as getting top marks in a class on anatomy
does not make you a good doctor able to handle an
emergency department in a large hospital. Or a person
who gets top marks in educational philosophy will not
necessarily be able to handle an unruly classroom.
Those skills are not even taught at university and most
people pick them up on the job.

Foxy,

Universities should always be what universities were meant to be: places of learning. And not vocational training centres.

So let's make them what they should be by getting rid of the vocational degree programs like engineering, etc.

Clearly universities have been taking in people who are half-wits and, somehow, they end up graduating, or so they claim.

The mark of an educated person is that they will never go on and on and on and on about how educated they are, they just do what they have learnt to do. They have confidence in their abilities and expertise. End of.

Joe

FOULmouth,

Obviously something you have never had to worry about.

So why do you keep going on and on and on and on about people who have been able to qualify for a degree? Jealousy?

Are we discussing the purpose of life? The purpose of Money? The purpose of skills? The purpose of education? Most of the skills of life are learned before seven years of age, including how you handle money. Life itself is about developing character and relationships.The important part is how one gives time and industry to improve another's quality of life. The wisdom of application of one's skills is more important than just knowing.

My daughter has a couple of degrees in languages with first class honours from anu. My youngest youngest son is a doctor after doing another degree with first class honours. My other son has no degrees, earns more money and is by far the most rational of the three. Kinda says alot.

runner,

And what about you?

Josephus,

It's about everything that has happened between the Big bang and the present.

runner,

The normal one probably has your wife's genes!

'runner,

The normal one probably has your wife's genes!'

for once I probably agree with you Foxy.

runner,

Yay!

What exactly is the point of saturation education when the capacity to digest the knowledge & use it for the benefit of society is lacking ?
Apart from the odd exception, over-educated people are inevitably & generally a burden on the less educated !

Individual,

You mean people like Fred Hollows, Dr Victor
Chang, Dr Muderis, just to name a few.

Foxy,

Are you aware that none of the three people you mention above was ever awarded a doctorate so why have you put Dr in front of their names?

I know they are/were doctors with a little d if that what you are trying to tell us.

I can never understand why doctors with a little d call themselves doctors with a big D when they have never been awarded a doctorate.

Is this one of your multicultural thingies that we are supposed to accept unquestioningly?

a few.
Foxy,
yep, few being the operative word !

Sitting on your spreading butt in a classroom, listening to some dill who has never done anything in their life but sit or stand in a classroom is no way to get an education.

Try riding a big horse at a hand gallop up to a 1.3 meter solid log jump into a lagoon. You will very quickly learn a whole lot about yourself. You will also learn what the horse thinks about you. Remarkably discerning animals horses.

Try sailing a yacht single handed a couple of thousand miles across an ocean. You will very quickly learn a whole lot about the meaning of life, with no fool professor feeding you garbage he learnt from a book.

Spend a couple of days helping in the clean up after a serious cyclone. You'll learn more about people & life than than you will learn in any classroom.

Meanwhile lets all give thanks that arts graduates don't design bridges or skyscrapers.

There's always been rivalry between Engineering and Arts. Sort of similar to different parts of the forces.

I guess the universities role has changed over the centuries since Plato's (and Socrates') vision.

http://labs.ece.uw.edu/dms/Tools_for_Teaching/Tools_for_Teaching/Professional_Development_files/History_Engineering_Education_Gateway.pdf

"Early on, most American engineers started as apprentices on canal and railroad projects such as the Erie Canal and the Transcontinental Railroad. A few classes (e.g., surveying) were taken to supplement this experience. Around the 1850’s some schools started following the French model – the ‘polytechnics’ – Engineering was apart from the university. This changed with the Morrill Act of 1862 Engineering was a part of the university."

"The shop dominated early engineering programs
In 1885, Robert Thurston (Cornell, ME) pushed to reduce “shop” hours and add basic science in the classroom. Stillman Robinson (Ohio State), William Burr (Columbia), and Comfort Adams (Harvard) followed his lead. The classroom began to prevail, but progress was slow. After WW I, the Europeans brought their ideas on engineering education to the US. European leaders in mechanics and fluid dynamics brought complex mathematical analysis... Stephon Timoshenko (Ukraine) first worked at the U of Michigan (1927) and Stanford (1936). He wrote mathematically based textbooks for the strength of materials, structural mechanics, and dynamics. In 1930, Theodore von Kármán (Hungary) brought German based theoretical fluid dynamics to Cal Tech. He later helped to found the JPL. HaraldWestergaard (Denmark) worked at the U. of Illinois (1916). He linked civil engineering and theoretical mechanics through the study of bridges, pavement slabs, and dams.... By the 1980’s, hands-on skills dropped tremendously.."

I have worked alongside educated people for 20 years prior to retirement & I give you one guess whom they invariably consulted when their theories failed !

What I find amusing is that the swamp donkey is trying to compare himself to an ophthalmic surgeon.

Mate, you are not one of the most educated people in Aus, in fact, you probably don't even make the top 1000 000.

shadyminister,

I didn't compare myself to anyone in Foxy's post.

I most definitely am one of the country's most educated people.

Your problem is that you do not understand the difference between being educated and being vocationally trained.

I'm educated and you're vocationally trained. Get it?

What is an engineer? I wonder how many here are talking about the same thing when they write engineer. Is an engineer the bloke who builds or rebuilds engines? Is it the bloke who designs bridges or the layout for a factory producing engines? Is it the engineer running a ship?

I am an engineer. I sat in the classrooms, listened to all the lectures, some of them actually on an air craft carrier. At the end I got the bit of paper to say I had.

Then I went motor racing. I was taught how to mechanic an engine, by an enthusiastic amateur, my bit of paper gave me no idea when it came to mucking with oily bits.

That amateur was a sales tax adviser in his day job, but between us, his privately gained knowledge & ideas, & my book learning, we built the most successful racing engine ever seen in Oz.

Were we engineers, who can say, & there was certainly no money in it, but it made us very rich in experience & satisfaction, which is what it is all about really.

My guess is "Individual". There are doers and talkers. Speak quietly but carry a big stick. Kudos.

I suspect Mr Opinion is putting these comments forward to provoke some response- "ironic conceit". Maybe he is hoping to recreate a scene from "Pride and Prejudice" here on OLO.

But to be fair I don't think that Mr Opinion is saying that technical skills aren't important or even that they are ubiquitous.

He appears to be saying that it isn't the role of universities to teach technical or vocational skills. Obviously any required theoretical skills need to be taught somewhere. And an engineers theoretical knowledge isn't always sufficient to solve the problem.

Many a young engineer just as many a young lieutenant have come adrift by not respecting their senior technicians and sergeants advise.

Note- Mr Opinion did not say he was one of the most intelligent only one of the most educated. I think he might be playing on what it "means" to be educated.

I don't think Mr Opinion is saying that he is necessarily more "intelligent" than an eye doctor.

Also I suspect that Mr Opinion doesn't always follow the "university line"- if this is the case then he probably agrees with those who disagree with "academia propaganda".

There are those that believe that universities are to learn "how to think" not "what to think". This is an argument that is at least two hundred years old.

Canem Malum,

You have a very sharp mind.

So MR O, are you intelligent?

Mr O,

Surely you know that what you refer to as - "vocations"
also include arts and humanities as part
and parcel of their degrees.

Doctors for example study humanities ( as do other
vocations such as law, and architecture to name a few).

It helps students to develop
critical-thinking skills, understand the viewpoints of
others, and different cultures, foster a just conscience
build a capacity for empathy, and become wise about
emotions such as grief and loss.

These are all characteristics that define a good doctor,
lawyer, and so on.

In the US, The National Academy of Sciences Engineering
and Medicine released a report urging the
integration of STEM ( science, technology, engineering,
medicine) with the Arts and the Humanities.

The Journal of Medical Humanities emphasizes the importance of
humanities for doctors. Universities such as Stanford,
Northwestern Univ. of California, Kings College in London,
are only some who follow the integration of STEM with the
Arts and Humanities.

It should go without saying that you can be an excellent
communicator and critical thinker without a liberal arts
degree. Any good education, should sharpen these abilities
further. Any degree will give you very important generic
skills like being able to write, being able to present an
argument, research, problem-solve, teamwork, and become
familiar with technology. However the integration of STEM
with the Arts and Humanities is the path that most
universities follow today.

To Chris Lewis-

I think what Mr Opinion is obliquely referring to is - whether he is intelligent or not doesn't matter- what matters is "meaning".

But I have too much time on my hands obviously... ;)

Foxy,

I think everyone should do an Arts degree.

People who do a vocational degree like engineering, medicine, law, accountancy, etc. and also do an Arts degree want to be educated as well as being able to make a living from a regular job.

Have you noticed that the ones who denigrate the Arts degree are those who are the uneducated amongst us. For example the shadyminister. He thinks having three vocational degrees makes him educated. Don't think so. How many engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc. do you hear say "Oh I had to supplement my studies by learning the Classics and some modern languages and some philosophy as well." Not bloody likely. When one wants to be an archaeologist or sociologist etc they have to do this on top of their chosen field of study.

It's chalk and cheese Foxy.

Misop,

I recall when my kids were very young, once they had got off the pot - and I probably did the same - that they would crow, "Daddy, I do poos."

So perhaps you've been to a university. Like about 3 million other Australians. And like about 55,000 Indigenous people in Australia. Congratulations.

From the latest stats on the federal Ed. Dept website, issued yesterday:

http://docs.education.gov.au/node/55057

more than 21,000 Indigenous students are currently enrolled at universities across the country. Nearly three thousand graduated last year, about a third % at post-graduate level. For reference, there are about 450,000 Indigenous adults in Australia. So about one in every eight Indigenous adults is a university graduate, one in every five women, one in every ten men. Overwhelmingly in the cities, of course, where most Indigenous people now live. Around 140,000 Indigenous people have, at some time, been enrolled at an Australian university. And that won't stop, or slow down.

I don't expect much of a tsunami of favourable comments, especially not from hotshots in the Indigenous elite, about this achievement. Or any comments, in fact.

Why is that ? Because the Indigenous elite is not, in the main, interested in Indigenous benefit or improvement or 'Closing the Gaps', but more interested in power - in two ways:

* down, over what they hope will remain a huge lifelong-welfare-oriented population,dependent and helpless, desperately needing their constant political backing to maintain their lifestyles; and

* up, into the bureaucracies which provide constant revenue and committee opportunities, for the elites to 'disperse'.

But live in hope.

Anyway, Misop, you will have more than fifty thousand Indigenous graduates to compete against, if you ever graduate.

Joe

Mr O,

We shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Just because someone studies Arts and Humanities
does not necessarily mean that they are educated
or that they think. They may merely have learned
enough to pass their exams. And the degree that they
have is not worth the paper its written on.

I have a colleague who's what is referred to as a
"Perpetual student" he keeps on studying and getting
degrees - but has not actually worked at anything in his
life. Probably he finds more comfort in studying than
in the real world. I also know a guy who finished
medicine - but never practiced it. He ended up lecturing
at university. And I won't go into how many teachers I
know - who have all the qualifications - but cannot
relate to their students or control an unruly classroom.

So there you are.

Degrees as you should know - are supposed to do a lot
of things - I've listed some of them earlier. But its
up to each individual - whether they actually achieve their
goals.

As the old joke about degrees goes:

We all know what BS is.(smile).
And an MS - is more of the same
And a PhD - is just - piled higher and deeper.

FOULmouth,

I still reckon you should have done an Arts degree. You have the makings of someone who could easily become an anthropologist, archaeologist, sociologist, historian, etc.

But you chose to be a Maoist pie-maker instead.

One good thing, you didn't end up being just an engineer like your mate the shadyminister.

Foxy,

Thank heavens for that.

Because guess what: I'm not in that bunch.

Are you?

Misopinionated,

One of my brothers is a mechanical engineer. You mentoned archaeology: when I was in primary school in Penrith, I was mad keen on prehistoric man, I borrowed all the library books, drew all the skulls, the Taung Boy, Cro-Magnon man (or Woman?), Misop Man, etc. and made myself a stone axe (a stone tied to a stick), and also a spear out of a bit of an old fence paling, which I drove into my foot. I think there are still bits there.

Anthropology yes, of course. Still have a book-case of Anthrop books. All of the arts and humanities are fascinating, actually, even environmental sociology. So much to learn ! Like Paul says, so much to read ! Oh, brave new world !

Give it a go !

Joe

FOULmouth,

I feel sorry for your brother. I hate being an engineer but not enough to commit suicide of course.

I'm happy you find anthropology interesting. I was initially trained in it but found sociology more my thing because sociology covers everything and I like knowing about everything. Which means we have something in common.

Misop,

Yes, my brother got a job with a certain national milk company, to find a way to compress milk for exporting to Europe. He stuck at it for six months but didn't succeed. Nobody has yet.

Strange, I've never heard of anybody bragging about sociology. I wonder if it actually exists.

Joe

FOULmouth,

Have you heard the expression:

History is sociology without the brains and sociology is history without the hard work.

Joe,
It's easy to compress milk - you just suck all the juice out of it.

Incompressible liquids are such slippery fellows - not at all conformist with P1V1 = P2V2, and they much prefer Bernoulli's as the way to go.

I dust my coffee with a packet-brand, do da, do da.
Creamy white and silky smooth, oh do da day.

Sociologists know all these things.
Or, so they tell me.
Tea, anyone?

Hi Joe,

Can't you compress a cow so it becomes a calf, only half the size, and send them that? Or instead of sending it to them in 2 litre bottles, send it to them in 1 litre's, only half the size. My good friend and fellow research enthusiast Professor Googarnut has spent his entire life researching that very subject, the holy grail of research, he is now 97 and still at it! Fondly known as Professor Nut in the higher echelons of research the good professor came up with formula we are all familiar with;

E=MC2.... Eggs = Milk x Cow X Cow. Some other Professor of little consequence, I believe named Albert, tried to cash in on Pr Nut's great research, even stealing his formula! Presently Professor Googernut is feeding Mabel (our research cow) 400Kg of strawberries a day, and has been doing so for 25 years, a breakthrough in the delivery of strawberry flavoured milk is expected some day soon !

Professor Googernut is also deep into researching the possibility of chickens laying square eggs, just think of the benefits to mankind if such was possible?

Joe, have a good day.

Why is it that with so many 'educated' people among us, our society is still plagued with such an abundance of stupid decisions & policies ?
One could be excused for thinking that 'educated' people would be sufficiently intelligent & competent to overcome these shortcomings ?
Why is it that these 'educated' have not got the upper hand years ago ? Why is stupidity still so widespread ? Every Govt harbours 'educated' people yet hardly any seemingly educated policies emanate from their circles ?
I might be totally on my own here but, I'd have thought 'educated' people would d be smart & capable enough to overcome the shortfalls of society more & more as time goes on, alas !
Should not Education be a tool rather than a mere stepping stone ?

How is it a cow eats green grass, it turns into red blood and comes out as white milk?

Josephus,
how is it when you give some people all the information at hand they become more stupid ?

Individual,

Perhaps it's the "football club" mentality of our
political system that's at fault - where you support
the team no matter what and the "educated" are not
the ones in control.

To Individual-

I think that academics fear for their position is a factor.
Fear is a fair but not sufficient response. Actions need to be taken to overcome the source of the fear. The paradox is authority is necessary within constraints- global power is without constraint.

I guess that the reason that they are afraid is because the opposition is overwhelming. If academics were to organise cohesive opposition to university "wokeness", "Locke Liberalism", "Locke Globalism", etc they would have to fight the university unions, professional bodies, the media, etc, etc. They have been captured by the "possibility over probability" ideology that ties them to a narrow road.

Possibility is the likelihood that an event will occur. Possibility is a list of events that can occur within the set without regard to likelihood. A Possibility over Probability Fallacy incorrectly attributes equal probability to all possibilities- or often an "agenda controlled" list of ideologically approved possibilities.

http://seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Possibility__Appeal_to_Probability.html#.X2WZw6bLeaY

The opposition strikes from the dark through the institutions.

Mao used his four pillar attack on the institutions.

Confront conventionally win by surprise.

Small compromises can lead to the self.

Officers lock up the guns of the soldiers till they can be directed in their goals. Ideologues lock up the academics and politicians thoughts and pens. Small controlling the large.

Ironically the Postmodern Deconstructionists were contemporarily correct in a sense that everything in modern society is about power. But parish societies were perhaps more about cooperation. I would like to return societies balance in favour of cooperation over power.

This is what happens when too few control too many.

There are too many people.

The ultimate power is not control over things but over people.

There are some very brave academics in Australia sadly they can't fight alone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Fraser

Fraser was accused of being affiliated with White Supremacist groups, including the Patriotic Youth League (PYL), by the anti-racist group FightDemBack. Although both he and the PYL initially denied any connection, Fraser admitted he had attended PYL meetings and signed up to the PYL website after video footage of a PYL member describing him as an official legal adviser surfaced.[5]

Following an outcry from Sydney's Sudanese community, Macquarie University Vice-Chancellor Dianne Yerbury on 29 July 2005 decided to suspend Fraser from teaching any further at the campus on the grounds that the race debate was "threatening to spill over into the classroom" and was "affecting the university's ability to operate effectively."[6] Macquarie University offered to pay out the final year of his contract but Fraser declined, describing the offer as a "dishonorable discharge".[7]

On this incident, Fraser wrote:

Truth is no longer a defence when it comes to charges of academic deviance. Instead of an invitation to debate the issues, the Vice-Chancellor's office sought to get me off campus as soon as possible by offering to buy out my contract. The head of Human Resources made it clear to me that my public comments were damaging their efforts to market Macquarie University to foreign students.

When I refused the offer on the grounds that it amounted to a dishonourable discharge, VC Di Yerbury, ordered that I be suspended from teaching. This was justified on the specious grounds that the safety of students supposedly had been threatened by, among others, my supporters! For what must be the first time in academic history, alleged threats by outsiders to disrupt classes were met, not by tightening security to deal with the disrupters, but by getting rid of the disruptee.[8]

I liked Mr Opinion's comment on "critical thinking".

CM,

Critical thinking, and Misopinionated ?

Above and beyond "Look, mummy, I do poos !" ?

That would be a good idea.

Joe

Loudmouth said- "Look, mummy, I do poos !"

Answer- Thanks Loudmouth for your insight.

Dear Joe,

You're absolutely spot on.

The opinion of anyone is really of no value
if they don't know anything about the subject.

If someone wants to fly a passenger jet, be in charge of a large ship, manage a large company,
be in charge of a medical team etc etc, they need to prove that they're capable to deal with the issues thrown at them in their particular field.
They concentrate on the best possible outcome to the best of their ability & when something goes wrong they're held accountable by hordes of public funded 'experts' who spend months trying to find fault in split-second decisions.
Politicians & Bureaucrats & partially educated Academics however, can occupy important positions & ruin other peoples' lives day after day with impunity ! A few may get voted out at the next election but they're mostly let off the hook because others of the same lack of competence are propping them up at all cost for their own self-preservation in the very close proximity of the public money trough !
Meanwhile, nothing improves ! Let's focus more on competence rather than just education & ask for value in return of Tax Dollars !