Different species have different impacts on the ecology or interrelations of various life forms. Since bees are involved in fertilization of many plant species including those we humans use for food the disappearance of bees would have great consequences for us humans and other life forms. The disappearance of most other species would have less impact. A parasite that lives only in the gut of the passenger pigeon would have disappeared with the extinction of the passenger pigeon. The disappearance of such a parasite would have made little or no difference to other forms of life. Since money that goes to preservation of our ecosystem is in short supply I feel we should not only classify species as to whether they are endangered or not we should also classify species as to the impact they have on the ecosystem. As lamentable as it may be I doubt that the disappearance of the koala would have a great effect on our ecosystem. In addition we should not only be concerned with the preservation of particular species we should be concerned with the preservation of ecosystems in which those species thrive. In the case of koalas stand of gum trees that koalas use for food are essential for the preservation of koalas. In general preservation of habitat is possibly the most important thing we can do for preservation of species

i can't help thinking that damage to wild life is done by radio waves, radar etc. Constant, unabating noise is another.
Particularly in the marine environment, one can hear ship noise for miles. On top of that we have pollution of air, water & soil.
The extinction of species is on-going & ours won't be all that far off. We can already see widespread brain damage & I imagine the body won't be far behind.
Nature will win & recover with or without us.
Personally, I'd like to see more lakes created in Australia which would enhance Nature & wild life rather than impact on it negatively !
Storm water run-off from urban areas could be directed to huge settling basins from whence it could flow on in rivers & through lakes getting cleaner along the way & eventually out to sea far less polluted. This could become a huge economic opportunity as well. All it needs is political will & a will of public co-operation. In the GBR region a reduction in recreational & commercial fishing is essential. A new fresh water fishing industry could offset this.

Dear David,

Thank You for this discussion.

All over the world, and especially in the less
developed societies, the pressure of the human
population and its technologies is devastating
natural ecosystems.

This pressure takes many forms - urbanization
and highway construction; transformation of virgin
land into farmland, chemical pollution of fresh
water; dredging and landfill in coastal areas;
uncontrolled hunting and poaching, especially of
African wildlife; deliberate and accidental
poisoning of wildlife with pesticides;
disruption of natural predator prey relationships;
strangulation of millions of birds and fish with
discarded styrofoam pellets, plastic bags, and other
synthetic flotsam, dam construction and irrigation,
and of course massive deforestation.

To some peoploe, the disappearance of other species as
a result of human activity is a matter of no particular
consequence. To others, it represents the height of
human hubris, in that we are making ourselves the
ultimate arbiters of which species may survive and which
may be obliterated.

However there are many practical reasons why human
society should protect other life forms.

For example, tropical forests are a stabilizing factor in
the global climate for they absorb vast amounts of
atmospheric carbon dioxide. Many plants are medically
valuable; most anti-cancer compounds, for
example, come from plants of the rain forest, and this
pharmaceutical cornucopia is still mostly untapped.

Wild species as a "storehouse" for agriculture scientists
who interbreed them with domestic species in order to
create more fruitful or resistant strains.

The rain forest is itself a vast and irreplaceable
"library" from which genetic engineers of the future may
draw raw material.

Many species among the millions of uncatalogued plants
may surely prove to be edible and could become major
crops in the future.

If we only stop and think for a moment of the trees,
and the flowers, the beasts of the field and the fowls
of the air, as an aesthetic treasure, capable of not
only delighting our senses but giving us some vision
of what we are so carelessly destroying.

cont'd ...

There is another argument for protecting other
life forms and it has nothing to do with any
social benefit to ourselves.

The breathtaking diversity of species has evolved in
delicate and precarious balance over millions of
years. Most of the plants and animals with which we
share the earth have been here a great deal longer
than we have. For a fleeting moment in planetary
history, our technology has given us domain over
them.

In awe, respect, and humility, we might just let them be.

A documentary I watched last night on orphaned children in Bangladesh trying to earn a living; families living in squalor either side of a railway line - that put the concern about supposedly threatened animals into perspective for me.

ttbn wrote "A documentary I watched last night on orphaned children in Bangladesh trying to earn a living; families living in squalor either side of a railway line - that put the concern about supposedly threatened animals into perspective for me."

Dear ttbn,

"orphaned children in Bangladesh trying to earn a living; families living in squalor either side of a railway line" are also threatened animals. Humans are part of the natural world and an animal species. Perhaps, your perspective might be widened.

People are not animals. Only a Green would believe such nonsense.

Dear ttbn,

A little elementary biology is in order. Taxonomists classify human beings as follows:
Domain: Eucarya
Kingdom: Animalia (That puts us with the other animals.)
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primate
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: Sapiens

Linnaeus included humans in the animal kingdom. What linked humans to other animals was our live birth and nutrition through suckling -- both of which are obviously female --, while what distinguished us was our mind -- typically considered as male by the scientists of the time, all of whom were male.

david f,
The koalas aren't that endangered. There are some threats to their habitat, particularly in the eastern states, but in Adelaide they're moving into the suburbs.
_____________________________________________________________________________

individual,
There's unlikely to be any damage at all from radio waves. If there is any, it's only a small amount.
Air pollution is a big but declining problem. Water pollution is also a big problem - particularly with groundwater where historic pollution requires ongoing management. Soil pollution is often related to that. A lot of the pollutants can be bioremediated (broken down by fungi, bacteria and protozoa) but that takes time.

I don't know which state you're in, but in my state (SA) they've already constructed a lot of wetlands for cleaning up stormwater. But I don't think it's suitable as the basis for a freshwater fishing industry!

Dear Aidan,

I wrote that originally in response to an appeal for funds to study a particular sub-species of possum.

"Victoria’s endemic species of koala, the Strzelecki Koala, is the only remnant population of koala in Victoria and South Australia. Sadly, new research suggests that as little as 1500 koalas could remain from the original koala gene pool.

In 2019, Friends of the Earth Melbourne established a unique mapping tool for documenting sightings and habitat surveys response to concerns about population decline and species survival.

Can you support us to continue mapping Koala habitat in the Strzelecki Ranges and South Gippsland?"

I did not contribute, and the post with which I started this discussion gave my reasons

don't think it's suitable as the basis for a freshwater fishing industry!
Aidan,
great to hear SA is doing that. re the above, of course it won't be an instant success & like many other projects, this water recirculation too requires time to build up.
What many Australians don't appear to comprehend is that, in order to make a scheme a success, it needs to be brought to a workable stage first.
I can see canal developments that can be extended thus providing residential area mixed with irrigation, recreation, fishing, boating, campin etc. All would be on-going, snow-balling economic stimuli.
One of the greatest benefits would be an almost eliminated flooding problem. The urban roofing has now reached a stage where just too much fresh water is lost & polluting the ocean more than it would naturally due to lack of absorbtion. All that water should be directed west of the GDR. Once the artesian basins are flooded, water will be flowing permanently in many rivers which normally dry out now during the drier season.
Human pressure has dried up those waterways so, let's use another human pressure to restore that flow. It would also be a great opportunity to kickstart a non-military National Service. The majority of young unemployed people will welcome the opportunity to get out of the concrete jungle into the real Bush.
All it needs is adults who can think beyond their own Superannuation.

There are just too many people in the world. We need to reward cultures that manage their populations and penalize those that don't. Locke Liberalism encourages global population growth. Currently countries appear to be rewarded for population growth. Even the so called Green's aren't green- they are Watermelons. I'm suspicious of many charities- I'm not sure about the "Friends of the Earth" so I'd need more information- but it sounds like they are doing good work in Victoria. Even if people want to help it's hard for them to know who they can trust.

Canem Malum,

Correct. There are too many people, particularly of the Green sort, who think that animals are equivalent to human beings.

" What a piece of work is man?"
exclaims Hamlet in Shakespeare's play.

"How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty!
In form and moving, how express and admirable!
In action, how like an angel! In apprehension,
how like a god! The beauty of the world! The
paragon of animals! And yet ... what is this
quintessence of dust?"

What are we? Hamlet's question is probably
as old as the unique human capacity for self-
awareness, a capacity that extends perhaps hundreds
or thousands of years back into prehistory.

Modern science can give no simple answer to the
question, for who we are - an extraordinarily
complex species - the most intelligent, resourceful,
and adaptable that has ever existed on the planet.

Yet today we do know infinitely more about the human
species than we did even a few years ago, and we have
learned that many traditional ideas about "human nature"
are hopelessly naive and misguided.

We are a PARTICULAR animal, Homo Sapiens - and in order
to fully understand what that entails we need to find out
more about the societies this animal forms, and about the
social behaviour within these societies. Understanding
the evolutionary background is a first step in this process.

Concern for our survival is better addressed if, instead of pointing where we are different from the other animals, we note how much we are like other animals, and the lessons that can be learned from that. One lesson is the great oxidation event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event

“The Great Oxidation Event (GOE), sometimes also called the Great Oxygenation Event, Oxygen Catastrophe, Oxygen Crisis, Oxygen Holocaust,[2] or Oxygen Revolution, was a time period when the Earth's atmosphere and the shallow ocean experienced a rise in oxygen, approximately 2.4 billion years ago (2.4 Ga) to 2.1–2.0 Ga during the Paleoproterozoic era.[3] Geological, isotopic, and chemical evidence suggests that biologically produced molecular oxygen (dioxygen, O2) started to accumulate in Earth's atmosphere and changed Earth's atmosphere from a weakly reducing atmosphere to an oxidizing atmosphere,[4] causing many existing species on Earth to die out.”

The many existing species which died out during the GOE died out because the oxygen they produced as a waste product accumulated until it was toxic to them. Our species, homo sapiens, is busily engaged in producing our world which is inhospitable or toxic to us.

This can be done in many ways. We can pollute the environment so much that it can no longer support us. We can wipe out other species such as the bees which are essential to us. We may wipe out other species and reduce biodiversity to find out too late that these other species were essential to our survival. We can get into an atomic exchange which will wipe out or greatly reduce our numbers. We can continue our uncontrolled population growth which will continue to lead to famine, conflict and outstrip the capacity of the land to support us. We already have on earth millions of refugees from areas which will no longer support them due to conflict or environmental degradation. We seem incapable of acting more sensibly than the organisms that exterminated themselves.

To David F-

It sounds like you are talking about a "Malthusian Catastrophe".

"the propensity for population increase also leads to a natural cycle of abundance and shortages"

A discredited but useful concept is "Production is arithmetic and population is geometric" linear vs exponential.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Propaganda_Analysis

It seems that Marx is one of the critiques of Malthus.

"Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels argued that Malthus failed to recognize a crucial difference between humans and other species. In capitalist societies, as Engels put it, scientific and technological "progress is as unlimited and at least as rapid as that of population".[33] Marx argued, even more broadly, that the growth of both a human population in toto and the "relative surplus population" within it, occurred in direct proportion to accumulation."

Thanks David F for your comparison of ostensibly wise "visionary" humans with "blind" nature.

I guess there may be a point to the religious view here- though religion too has been known to be expansionist.

Wrong link above...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe

No-one or nothing ever bothered about the preservation of species so, why is it so important now ?
Can we prevent it ? No ! Even if we stopped all that we're doing that is bad for the environment, the evolutionary cycle will continue no matter what. We must accept the unpleasant reality that we humans are simply just another kind of life that is destined to eventually disappear.
It could take another thousand years but it will happen.
So, let's focus on stamping out stupidity & those who are hell-bent in propagating it so we can have a nicer existence for the fleeting moments we're here !

Dear Indy,

It took the medical profession from the 1960s to
the present era to get the public and the governments
we elect , to act on the toxic, life-taking efforts of
tobacco. Eventually sanity prevailed, although it took
40 years.

It is clearly time for economists to commence their
campaign for politicians to take action. Economists are
currently sitting on their collective hands - not good
enough.

Prof. Tor Hundloe in his book "From Buddha to Bono:
Seeking sustainability", tells us that economists are the
the most powerful profession today. The guardians of the
three major disciplines (which combined to form the new
sustainability science - ecology, economics, and ethics)
have a special duty thrust upon them.

They have to ensure that those participating in these
fields apply the accumulated knowledge in their
respective fields.

Appealing to our professionals and philosophers is one
thing but it is you and I as global citizens who need
to put aside our narrow self-interests and work together
as friends if there is to be a world for those humans and
other animals who follow us.

Our world leaders will start taking notice of the vast army
of experts who are willing and able to guide us through
the coming difficult years. A better world is possible.
It will take effort. It will be difficult. But as Prof
Hundloe tells us - it will be worth it.

we would have a lot more Koalas left if the idiot Green dogma did not lock up all the forests.

It's Thanks to the Green conservationists that
NSW government has dropped a plan that could
have opened up new areas of the state's
protected old-growth forests to logging.

Green conservationists have called this decision
a win for the state's environment and threatened
wild-life after years of habitat loss and the
devastating 2019-20 bushfires.

If it wasn't for the Green conservationists a
global tragedy would have unfolded in NSW.
More than 3 million hectares have burned.
After losing so much the need
to be doing all that could be done to protect what was
left was essential.

Why do so many people believe that Nature needs to be managed ? Nature will always find a way out, it's up to us stupid humans to fit in without destroying it until we're on the chopping block !
Cutting trees & creating lakes is more often than not enhancing nature rather than destruction of the environment. Things only go haywire when we destroy what the environment needs to replenish itself.
When our damage exceeds what can't recuperate naturally within a season or two is when the show goes wobbly.
Fires are a perfectly normal & natural mechanism to balance Nature. It's only since silly humans thought that preventing fires is a good thing. Yeah, we've all seen how that worked out in the past.
If we do see a need to mine a wooded area then at least create another wooded area for wildlife to migrate to. Most mining is probably not even necessary but the want for money by a few dictates such unnecessary exploitation of limited resources to produce over-supply for an already saturated market.
Would it not make better economic & environmental sense to leave the ore in the ground in Australia instead of stock-piling it overseas ?
Sell it only when it's actually needed & brings a better price ?

In pre-industrialized societies people traditionally
treated nature with respect, considering themselves a
part of, rather than set apart from, the natural
world. This attitude was typical, for example, among
the Indian tribes of North America in pre-
Colonial times and of the Indigenous people of our nation.

In industrialized societies our attitude is different.
We consider ourselves the lords of creation and see
nature primarily as a resource for exploitation . As our
"needs" increase, our capacity for exploitation expands.

We do not see our ravaging of the environment as "ravaging"
at all. It is "progress" or "development". We are so used
to exploiting natural resources and dumping our waste
products into the environment that we frequently forget
that resources are limited and exhaustible and that
pollution can disrupt the ecological balance on which our
survival depends.

Individual said; i can't help thinking that damage to wild life is
done by radio waves, radar etc.

It is an old wives tale.

Dear Foxy,

Tribal people may care for the environment. Tribal people may also be destructive to the environment. There are instances of both. Aboriginal people in Australia used fire as a tool to regenerate forests. Aboriginal people in Australia are responsible for the disappearance of megafauna in Australia.

In current times there is destruction of the environment by irresponsible logging and land clearing. Thee are also conservation organisations such as Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club which seek to preserve the environment.

In fact one may make the generalisation that in both tribal societies and modern societies there are groups and individuals caring for the environment and destructive to the environment. The difference is that tribal societies get romanticised, and modern societies don't get romanticised.

Dear David,

Reason, the supremacy of science, and the universal
brotherhood of humans are the pillars on which we
can built a better future.

If world population continues to grow rapidly,
if industrialization spreads around the world,
if pollution and resource depletion continues
at an increasing rate - and all these things
continue to happen - where is human society headed?

The most optimistic answer to these questions would
be that, one way of another, sweeping world changes
await us.

In the modern industrialized world people often
feel insulated from nature and confident that technology
can give mastery over the natural environment forgetting
all too easily that they too are animals, ultimately
dependent on the environment for their survival as any
other species.

Recently, however, an awareness of an
" ecological crisis" has led social and natural scientists
from several disciplines to focus on the complex
interrelationship among industrialization, technology,
population growth, and the global environment.

As I stated earlier, hopefully our world leaders will
start taking notice of the vast array of experts who are
willing and able to guide us through the coming difficult
years. A better world is possible. It will take effort.
It will be diffcult. But it will be worth it.

where is human society headed?
Foxy,
Where the majority, as in Democracy, who are stupid, destine us to !

The problem that, while the majority is stupid, they elect politicians no wiser than they are. Trump does not generally follow the advice of scientists, enlightened military men or wise corporate leaders but caters to the wishes of his base who are subject to primitive religion and endemic prejudice. Hillary Clinton should have had enough sense not to say it, but she was spot on in calling them deplorables.

David F, Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club, & wind farms do a damn sight more damage to the environment than most of the logging companies in the world. The world would be a lot better place if all the members of Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club were locked up for the terms of their lives.

We need a whole lot more logging in Oz to pay for, build & maintain fire trails & firebreaks, & to keep the fuel load down. A huge part of the disastrous fires seen recently is because the logging companies have been kicked out of the forests, & their management & care has been left to conservationists in national parks departments.

Dear Hasbeen,

Do the loggers really care about the condition of the forests? I doubt that many of them do. Their objective is to get the trees down that will make the most money for them. Whether that tree is a home for wildlife is not their concern. Whether they leave inflammable brush on the ground in removing profitable old growth is not a concern of theirs. It is standard rhetoric for those who wish to exploit the environment by demonizing those who have a concern for it. You said it all when you said ” We need a whole lot more logging in Oz to pay for, build & maintain fire trails & firebreaks, & to keep the fuel load down.” We can pay for the fire breaks and fire trails by other means than logging. I think you have it backwards. We need no more logging. There is limited land devoted to forests in Australia. There is a tremendous diversity of wildlife in the forests we have left. We need to keep them not only to preserve wildlife but for flood control, humans to appreciate them and keeping a bit of Australia’s heritage. The disastrous fires we have seen recently is largely due to climate change. That will be largely addressed by other means than by logging. Fire chiefs wanted to meet with our prime minister to warn him of the fire danger. He did not meet with them. About six months after the warning he ignored the disastrous fires started. During that time firebreaks and fire trails could have been made. Not preparing for emergencies for which one has had warning is a sign of poor management. It is much easier to blame those with a concern for the environment like Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club, and those that have done something about it like the wind farms. In recommending "members of Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club were locked up for the terms of their lives." you are really saying, "This is bad news. Kill the messaenger!"

Dear David,

The Natural Conservation Council of NSW had warned
that a global tragedy was unfolding in NSW. That more
than 3 million hectares had burned and thousands of
koalas had died. They made it clear that after losing
so much they needed to be doing all they could to protect
what was left especially to protect the state's old-growth
forests from logging.

Thanks to conservationists the NSW government has dropped
a plan that could have opened up new areas of the
state's protected old-growth forests to logging. This
decision has been called a win for the state's environment
and its threatened wild life after years of habitat loss
and the devastating 2019-20 bushfires.

Dear Hasbeen,

I can't believe that you really think that conservationists
should be jailed and that loggers should be able to continue
devastating our environment and killing our wildlife.

We keep being told to take notice of the science.
Now the science has told us that global warming had nothing to do with the bushfires !
It was all to do with the fuel buildup.

There are just as many useless amongst the scientists as there are in ever section. After all, when was the last time that policies were legislated by blue collar workers ?
Every single decision is made by educated people who act mostly on advise of the educated expert kind.
Anyhow, any loss of a species is sad but it's not really unnatural. It's just that we humans or rather Greens have begun to think we can halt evolution because that's what they want, not because what nature needs or doesn't need.

Foxy real loggers, who produce lumber have a real reason to conserve forests. They want to come back & log the forests after they have regrown. The last thing they want is to destroy millions of acres of forest, & the wildlife it contains with catastrophic fires. That is down to so called conservationists who try to stop fuel reduction burns at every opportunity.

The greatest destruction of forests today is in the US & Europe. This is caused by the greenie hatred of coal, leading to total destruction of huge acreage of forest to feed wood chips in place of coal to electric power stations.

Every action of organisations like Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club, lead by activists with no understanding of anything, leads to such unanticipated consequences. Yes they are a damn sight more dangerous to nature & wild life than any logger, due to their simplistic emotive approach to every thing they touch.

They have yet to show they have ever thought through their emotive actions to their quite obvious, to any thinking person, conclusions. To call them, idiots is to insult every village idiot who has ever trod the earth.

Bazz,
>Now the science has told us that global warming had nothing to do with the bushfires !
The science has told us no such thing!

Firstly, the bushfires affected some areas that were normally too wet to burn.
Secondly, some fuel reduction burns had been cancelled because of hot weather resulting in two much o a risk of them getting out of control.
Thirdly, the bushfires spread faster and burn more fiercely in hot weather.

The science can't, of course, attribute particular weather events to global warming. But it thoroughly refutes the notion that the results have nothing to do with global warming.

Aiden, you MUST have seen the reports on the enquiry into the bushfires.
They were quite conclusive that AGW had nothing to do with it.
Even the temperatures were higher in past years, back to 19th century.
Other bushfire events were worse than the recent ones.
I just can't believe you missed all that.

Dear Hasbeen,

You wrote: “Every action of organisations like Friends of the Earth and the Sierra Club, lead by activists with no understanding of anything, leads to such unanticipated consequences. Yes they are a damn sight more dangerous to nature & wild life than any logger, due to their simplistic emotive approach to every thing they touch.

They have yet to show they have ever thought through their emotive actions to their quite obvious, to any thinking person, conclusions. To call them, idiots is to insult every village idiot who has ever trod the earth.”

In that you are totally wrong. The Australian Democrats of which I was a proud member listened to the advice of knowledgeable people and based their activism on both feeling and scientific advice. To the best of my knowledge the Australian Democrats are the only Australian political party which has actually been led by a scientist, John Coulter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coulter_(politician)

Dr John Richard Coulter (born 3 December 1930) is an Australian medical researcher and former politician. He was the fourth elected parliamentary Senate leader of the Australian Democrats, serving from 2 October 1991 to 29 April 1993. His understanding of conservation and environment principles was exceptional for the time…

The founder of the Sierra Club was John Muir. Muir was an influential Scottish-American naturalist, author, environmental philosopher, botanist, zoologist, glaciologist, and early advocate for the preservation of wilderness in the United States of America.

If the political parties of Australia were led by people as knowledgeable as John Coulter and John Muir rather than humpty-dumptys like Barnaby Joyce we would be much better off.

Instead of accusing groups that you know nothing about of ‘no understanding of anything’ and a ‘simplistic emotive approach’ you might find out what they are really like.

Hi David, thanks for an interesting topic. The idea that indigenous people could live in harmonic balance with their environment. There are notable exceptions, by generally without applying population pressure, or the over exploitation of their environment through technology and over demand indigenous people survived rather well. My wife tells me as a child, when they went to the sea shore to gather kai (food), both her mother and father would stress, not to gather too much, only what they needed, leave some for others etc.

ttbn, can you explain your comments; "People are not animals. Only a Green would believe such nonsense" then this; "There are too many people, particularly of the Green sort, who think that animals are equivalent to human beings."

Bazz,
>Aiden, you MUST have seen the reports on the enquiry into the bushfires.
>They were quite conclusive that AGW had nothing to do with it.

Which reports are you referring to? It certainly can't be the NSW one, which states on page iv:
"Climate change as a result of increased greenhouse gas emissions clearly played a role in the conditions that led up to the fires and in the unrelenting conditions that supported the fires to spread, but climate change does not explain everything that happened."

Interestingly I can appreciate both David F and Hasbeen's perspective here.

Not everyone knows about Friend's of the Earth and... so perhaps comparing them to the Green's Movement at large is reasonable. The Green's Political Party appears to be influenced by Communism who are well known for using emotion as one of its propaganda tactics- Institute of Propaganda Analysis 1937.

Engineers and business people- perhaps see logging as satisfying a necessary population need and sees the logging industry as not to blame for the population problem.

There was recent controversy about fires ostensibly due to the failure of clearing of underbrush from around towns as a contributing factor.

Interesting point about the wood chips being substituted for coal because of population energy demand growth.

Population growth- means energy demand growth- means employment demand growth- means more damage to the environment.

The different positions seem to be related to supply vs demand side activity. Patrick Deneen talks about this aspect of the Left and Right Liberal roots being of the same cause- essentially John Locke's Man in Nature along with John Stuart Mill's conception of freedom.

Locke's theory of mind is often cited as the origin of modern conceptions of identity and the self, figuring prominently in the work of later philosophers such as Rousseau, David Hume, and Immanuel Kant. Locke was the first to define the self through a continuity of consciousness. He postulated that, at birth, the mind was a blank slate, or tabula rasa. Contrary to Cartesian philosophy based on pre-existing concepts, he maintained that we are born without innate ideas, and that knowledge is instead determined only by experience derived from sense perception, a concept now known as empiricism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

The ideas of Locke perhaps creates the impression that the self is the preeminent value without constraint.

Dear Hasbeen,

To think of forest as only a timber resource is to limit our understanding of it. Loggers may consider it as a renewable resource. However, that only concerns the regrowth of timber. The forest is also a home for both flora and fauna which may be destroyed by the act of logging. Trees may grow again, but the species that depend on them may disappear. Some areas should just be left wild. Forest fires are part of a natural cycle. Some plants will not reproduce if their seeds are not subjected to heat. Just as it is unwise to build houses on a flood plain houses should not be built in the middle of a forest.

Dear Canem Malum,

There is reason to think the mind is not a tabula rasa at birth. A baby regardless how old knows what to do when a nipple is presented to it. Children in general do not need to be taught grammar. They instinctively speak correctly.

Kant writes of our a priori knowledge, that which we have built in. We add to this knowledge from experience. Empiricism is a concept which has largely been abandoned as it alone is limited as an explanation of knowledge.

Humans are social animals. Considering the self alone yields a limited knowledge of our humanity. During medieval times some thought the original language of humans was Hebrew.

https://charlesasullivan.com/3965/hebrew-and-the-first-language-of-mankind/

We really don't know that there was a original language. It seems more probable to me that different groups of humans developed different languages which are lost in the mists of antiquity.

Aiden, perhaps we should redefine the argument.
The popular greenie argument is that the bushfires are the result of
global warming. However reading the Commonwealth report it seems to
place more emphasis on the marginal effects of global warming.
It talks about average temperatures and drier fuel.
However interestingly temperatures at the time of older fires were
higher for the Black Friday fire in Victoria and in the late 19th
century.
The temperatures during the fires was not all that remarkable so it
hard to see how such a fuss could be made of blaming global warming.
Those of course were spot measurements and not averages.
The ABC made quite a meal of the fires and AGW.
The original report to which I was referring was a report by a
forestry scientific organisation whose name I do not remember.
No matter the fires were not that far removed from previous
experiences we have had of bushfires.

david f,

What would you do about Australia's invasive species: foxes, rabbits, cane toads, Chinese.

Dear Mr Opinion,

Comparing human beings to invasive species is Nazi talk.

davidf,
it is reading too many of Paul's posts !

A point of interest;
The wood chips used for electricity generation are shipped from the
US forests to the coast and then by sea to Europe.
In the co2 calculations they are considered to be renewables.
Hmmm.

Dear Mr Opinion,

Unlike the English who came to Australia and took over the land of the people who were already here, massacred them, used them as cheap labour, separated them from their land and put them in missions where the English imposed an alien culture and religion on them the Chinese are coming in peace. They work, buy land, vote, serve in parliament and add to the cultural diversity that is current Australia. We Australians are richer for having them here. Possibly, you can learn to appreciate them.

The Chinese had a sophisticated culture when the English were painting themselves blue and worshipping trees. They had printing several centuries before Gutenberg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_China#:~:text=Science%20and%20Civilisation%20in%20China%20%281954%E2%80%93%20%5B2016%5D%29%20is,was%20even%20responsible%20for%20the%20%22S%22%20in%20UNESCO.

tells about the many contribution to science and technology made by the Chinese civilization. Possibly, the Chinese will make a greater contribution to knowledge in Australia than any other ethnic group.

David F said-

"Kant writes of our a priori knowledge, that which we have built in. We add to this knowledge from experience. Empiricism is a concept which has largely been abandoned as it alone is limited as an explanation of knowledge."

Answer-

Thanks for your comments David F. There is a subtle difference between Empiricism and Empirical just as there is between Science and Scientism. There is also the discovery of male and female brain structure in mice.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191017142809.htm

David F said-

"Dear Mr Opinion, Comparing human beings to invasive species is Nazi talk."

Answer-

I don't think Mr Opinion is a Nazi. But I do think he probably baited you.

Mr Opinion is using an analogy- he isn't saying that Chinese should be wiped out.

You could argue that the Nazi's used similar words in their propaganda like the accusations currently in the US and using the propaganda technique of "guilt by association". Calling someone a Nazi is another propaganda technique.

If the Chinese invade then they are invasive.
An invasive species is one that is brought into an ecosystem and quickly dominates that ecosystem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invasive

Invasive definition is - tending to spread especially in a quick or aggressive manner.

I guess you could argue that Chinese people are not a "species".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies

Some view many things through the lense of WWII and of course for some this is natural.

Not everyone is a Nazi or a Devil.

Neither is everyone a commie or a devil, and referring to
them as such is also another propaganda technique.

Our society is filled with propaganda. And vigilance is
key.

For example -

Australians are always bombarded with political
propaganda ahead of federal elections as big business,
unions, grass roots activist groups, plow tens of millions
of dollars towards influencing the high-stakes contest.

Populist parties in Australia are consistently seeking
to gain votes by appealing to anti-immigration and
racist sentiments. They are seeking to entrench what
might be called "white" or "settler" privilege at the
expense of migrants and Indigenous people. Their model is
the "White Australia" policy.

We have -

Millions of dollars spent annually on public opinion
polls and market surveys and on media campaigns to build
favourable images of political candidates, political
parties, policies, and even products. These campaigns are
forms of propaganda or viewpoints that are presented
with the intention of persuading the audience to adopt a
particular opinion. It's objective is always the same -
to influence public opinion towards a specific conclusion.

That is why debate is so essential in a democratic society.
As is a tolerance of criticism and of dissenting opinions.
As is access to information so that its citizens can make
informed choices.

It is important that the media not be censored, that
citizens have the right of free speech, and that public
officials tell the truth.

It is often the media that is doing the "censoring" sometimes under the threat of "left wing" Global Liberalist organizations such as the "Sleeping Giants". This is in opposition to usually peaceful traditional cultures.

It's a strange paradox that, while we live in a torrent
of information there is such a limited range of
available news. Media ownership in Australia is notoriously
narrow.

Main Stream Media offers precious little diversity and
such diversity as there is runs along predictable lines.
(Newsworthy, sells, distorted).

It's also the case that the internet offers a vast supply
of news - especially opinion.

To dive into that pool in order to learn something is to
risk drowning.

Those of us who are torn between the desert of Main Stream
Media and the jungle of the internet need places where
rational but diverse opinions can be found on matters of
enduring importance. And we seek out those places daily.

Sorry Canem Malum, feeding wood chip in place of coal has nothing to do with population pressure. It has everything to do with fool greenie ideology of hating coal. Not only is it a poor feed stock, it saves very little of the CO2 emissions they claim to want to reduce.

The fossil fuel used in harvesting, chipping, rail transport sea transport, & more rail & road transport of the stuff means it would be less CO2 intensive in many instances to use local coal in the first place.

This is what I mean about unintended consequences. Some clown suggests the regrowth of the clear forest will consume the CO2 released in burning the wood chips. However the invariably city based greenie has no idea about the fuel consumed in carrying out the exercise. They have no idea of anything outside the classroom or city office. Thus we get huge destruction of forests & wildlife habitat, for no gain in their claimed objective. A much better idea would be to fell the better trees for lumber production & leave the rest.

One is left wondering is their objective really some planet health mission to reduce CO2, of as yet unproven value, or merely the obstruction of something they have an emotional dislike of. By their Ignoring the disastrous result of much of their activism when highlighted to them, very much proves the latter is the case in most instances.

Yes some dumb useful idiots are well meaning in their falling for the greenie pitch, but they would do well to follow the money trail to the activists bank accounts some time.

A gem from one of the climate deniers; "The original report to which I was referring was a report by a forestry scientific organisation whose name I do not remember." Seems like a bit of a Donaldism to me.

Indy, trying to flame, flame, flame, shame, shame, shame, on you, in reference to Nazi talk and me, "it is reading too many of Paul's posts !" I have no time for such frivolity, we need to discuss 'The Seniors National Service' once more. Your duty lies with the Fatherland. Overseen by masses of highly paid public servants you will have a special place of honour in the SS (Seniors Service). Remember the motto of the regiment! "Work will set you free!" BTW, something you haven't done for 60 years, since Gough gave you the flick back in 72, how are you on the end of a number 9 shovel, 16 hours a day?

how are you on the end of a number 9 shovel, 16 hours a day?
Paul1405,
probably leave you in my dust despite being a bit older than you. I'd fill up three trucks by myself while you're trying to find the on-switch on the shovel & Mr Opinion & SteeleRedux trying to figure out the password for you !

Ah, well Paul, I do agree the temperature has been rising for
a long time. Around three hundred years actually since the Maunder Minimum.
Some think it has already peaked and is getting ready to decline.
Certainly the current sunspot count cycle is very low and if the next
few sunspot cycles are also very low then we will be in for a cold few
hundred years.
I do not know how much the Milanvitch cycles modify our temperature.
I am sure someone can calculate that.

david f,

It was Jared Diamond in his book 'Collapse' who called the Chinese migrants to Australia and the US an invasive species.

The reason he described them as this is they seek a First World lifestyle which impacts adversely on the environment in the US and Australia. (In simple terms that is. If you care for a detailed explanation you can find it in his book.)

I agree with him. 1.6 billion Chinese all wanting to raise themselves to First World status and practices will definitely do a lot of damage to a global environment that has been almost been wiped out from human intervention since the introduction of our species 200,000 years BP.

How typically green is our Paul,"A gem from one of the climate deniers; The original report to which I was referring was a report by a forestry scientific organisation whose name I do not remember." Seems like a bit of a Donaldism to me".

No consideration of the evidence or argument, just a blind reference to some unnamed "forestry scientific organisation', probably Friends of the Earth, or some other such, [if it exists], greenie ratbag mob with a descriptive name. Totally proves my point for me.

Dear Mr Opinion,

I agree with you that the first world life style is causing great damage to the environment. Perhaps we and other first world countries could change our life style to do less damage to the environment. The Chinese might copy that rather than emulating our current life style. The Chinese have certainly showed themselves aware of environment problems. Part of that awareness was shown in their one child policy. Environmental problems are exacerbated by uncontrolled population growth. To the best of my knowledge no other country has addressed that population to the extent the Chinese have.

I remember the Nazis comparing Jews to rats and lice as they worked themselves up to exterminating them. I am very sensitive to that. Rhetoric comparing Chinese to invasive species even if it comes from Jared Diamond reminds me of the Nazi rhetoric. Can you see why "What would you do about Australia's invasive species: foxes, rabbits, cane toads, Chinese." sounds to me like Nazi rhetoric?

Mr Opinion,
How many commodities produced in China have you acquired & use on a daily basis ?
I know that I'd prefer to buy locally made products but as just about all my fellow citizens of this Nation hold their Dollars in higher regard than each other, I too am forced to buy & use made in China.
But, I draw a line at blaming them for aspiring to what people who don't need to perform to afford to buy their goods.
I wonder how they'd react were they to realise the mentality of the people they envy ?

david f,

The Chinese only believe in two things: money and all things Chinese.

China's biggest export is environmental degradation and the increasing diaspora is spreading that commodity to every corner of the globe.

If I had my way I would cancel all of their visas and send them packing to China. And I think old Soot Morrison and the boys are thinking along the same lines as I am.

Have you noticed how Soot's attitude to China changed after he came back from his visit to the US last year. I have a strange feeling that the Americans showed him what the Chinese are up to and I think it was enough to scare the sh!t out of him.

Dear Mr Opinion,

The Chinese are human beings. One Chinese is different from another Chinese. To make such a statement as "The Chinese only believe in two things: money and all things Chinese." is to deny their humanity. I don't think such a statement applies to any people, nation or ethnic group. I see no further point in discussing anything with you.

david f,

A society is not a group of individuals all doing their own thing as you seem to think.

I'm not the only one who has come to see the Chinese (by which I have always meant as the nation) as a threat to Australia.

But obviously you don't recognise it......... and neither does Andrew Forrest. Should we take it that you and Andrew Forrest think alike on this matter?

China's biggest export is environmental degradation and the increasing diaspora .....
Mr Opinion,
It's satisfying the insane Western consumer demand for commodities, by Westerners such as yourself !

individual,

It's looking like you and Andrew Forrest might have a lot in common.

Dear David f,

I'm not keen on the idea of ear-marking on the basis of potential impacts of loss or retention of individual or group biota as there is so much which has yet to be studied and therefore uncertainty warrants retention - and in any event I believe it is essential to do whatever it takes to retain all, to live and let live.
Who indeed are we, Homo, to adjudicate and judge?
What is our role in the Universe - surely it should be to preserve, to minimize the impacts of our dominance?

But then, how indeed to minimize destruction - how to convince the global masses to minimize footprints, to restrain individual and group material demands, to contain ambition and embark with determination on nurturing, preserving and appreciating now, for the benefit and admiration of future generations of humanity for millennia to come?

Already the climate deniers cry foul, the expansionists balk and the unconcerned masses breed - despite mass human displacement and despair and ever increasing conflicts over resources, territory or spurious cultural or religious aspirations for supremacy.

There is only one universal parasite on Earth - and it is endemic, epidemic and all-pervading - and an effective treatment, vaccine, amelioration or antidote is the paramount requirement of our age.

Not only must materialism be contained and personal endeavours optimized but human expansionism must be tethered.
How?
Must it take ever-intensifying catastrophic eruptions to awaken due and universal concern?
Must it be left to 'nature', with serial and frequent ever-more-deadly pandemics to reel-in the pestilence?
Or may it take mass shortage of resources and capacity to invoke global horrendous conflict and possibly nuclear holocaust - to finally 'get the message through'?
By which time of course the planet will lie in ruin?

Some reach for the stars and revere technological innovation as the 'saviour' of humanity's backside, but fail to recognise the limitations of such reliance, the inevitable destruction of natural systems which will follow, and the determination of some human elements aspiring to global dominance.

Predictions?

Dear Saltpetre,

Predictions?

I'll repeat part of what I wrote on page 5.

Reason, the supremacy of science, and the universal
brotherhood of humans are the pillars on which we can
built a better future.

However, if world population continues to grow rapidly,
if industrialization spreads around the world, if
resource depletion continues at an increasing rate and
all these things continue to happen - where is human society
headed?

The most optimistic answer to these questions would be - that
one way of another sweeping world changes await us.

Hasbeen- Thanks for your comments I found them interesting. I think this could be drawn out a little more but I think I'll do this at another opportunity. Thanks again. CM.

At the risk of challenging David F one too many times-

In regards to the history of Chinese technology...

I would argue that the China of today is very different to Dynastic China. China itself is the result of massive acts of colonialism for example in the Warring States Period, the Mongolian Invasions, etc. Ironically this seems to have led to certain parts of China being isolated or protected enough from the instability of politics to develop advanced technology- the artisan's appear to have become quite rich from their crafts but they seem to have been essentially sub-kingdoms within the superstructure of China.

The Jurchen tribe (Manchu people) seems to have been wise enough to protect the majority of Chinese Culture and let them alone as long as they paid their taxes similar to the Roman structure. Like the Roman's they kept control through advanced military tactics and technology. The Manchu were taller than the average Chinese and their homeland had access to mobility in the form of horses making them an impressive force. "Horsepower" is also very useful for production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Domestication
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Steppe#/media/File:Eurasian_steppe_belt.jpg

Domestication of the horse most likely took place in central Asia prior to 3500 BC.

There is some argument that technological development in China was faster because ubiquitous bamboo is easier and more flexibly worked than trees found in the west.

http://www.britannica.com/plant/bamboo

The Mao Communists on the other hand were much more intrusive, they appear to have taken advantage of the weakness of Chinese Leaders due to their current conflicts in the Opium Wars and Japan.

The Mao Communists as I understand killed and destroyed the educated and traditions on an unprecedented scale as part of it's culture war. Mao bombed China back to the stone age in a sense. This was coupled with unprecedented massive population growth (which has now been outdone by India). The Chinese Communists realising errors in the strategy of massive population expansion corrected managed their population using the one child policy- which had some undesirable effects- but achieved their population reduction objective. This objective had implications much beyond the Chinese border.

Before the Opium Wars (circa 1845) I would probably agree that China like Japan before the Kanagawa Treaty (1854) was fairly peaceful but this came after periods of instability.

China appears set for a new era of expansionism and aggression.

Those that are less like us are less likely to respect our ways- but that doesn't mean we should give up our ways. Sometimes we need to stay on our side of the fence.

I don't think that David F is intentionally blaming the victim of Chinese expansionism.

Dear Saltpetre,

I agree that we know little about the impact of species upon each other. In order to learn about it we would have to find out about the matter. However, I think the effort to make such a study would yield more useful information than a determination of their current range. Determining their current range would be a snapshot in time while knowledge of impacts of species on one another would be learning about a dynamic process.

Who are we to adjudicate and judge? Who do we have to be to adjudicate and judge? We have been making decisions which affect us and the other life forms on the planet. We have been doing it arrogantly and blindly. Peter Singer advocates we should consider all sensate creatures. Since other animals do not have abstract language to express their wishes we have to continue doing it arrogantly but maybe not quite as blindly.

To make an analogy we have organizations which study breast cancer, prostate cancer, bowel cancer, lung cancer etc. To my mind this is a wasteful approach. We might do better to devote those resources to study cell growth, cell reproduction and cellular abnormalities which are factors in all cancers.

One act that might minimize the impact of our dominance and yield information to minimize the damage we do would be to leave some areas wild and only allow trained observers in to gain information about the interactions in those areas.

Is it possible we could learn to live simply? Rather than concentrating on ways to maintain our life style change our life style. I believe the Epicurean philosophy is a better guide to a satisfying life and a minimal impact on the environment than any religion I know of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism

Dear Canem Malum,

You have not challenged me. I have studied Chinese history as the University of Queensland. I am not an expert, but your account is fairly consistent with what I learned. I think the Chinese government at this time is a tyrannical operation. However, I believe that the Chinese government is still reacting to the humiliation of such western operations as the Opium Wars.

I object strongly to such statements as “The Chinese only believe in two things: money and all. things Chinese.” That is a bigoted and offensive attack on the Chinese people not the Chinese government or nation. Some Chinese people such as those demonstrating for democracy in Hong Kong are in the mould of other people who have wanted a voice in their government. Some Chinese are materialistic money grubbers. In short there are many different Chinese people, and one can find in them whatever type you are looking for.

The Chinese call us sai-gwai-loh- Foreign Devil. Japanese have gaijin and iteki- foreign person or outsider. Muslims have infidel- non believer (but interestingly seems to be originally a Christian word). Hebrew's have gentiles- sometimes goyim (I'm unsure of the various contexts here).

"Barbarian's at the gate".

Every culture seems to have their own word for outsiders.

"Saying that someone is self absorbed (bigoted)" (in this case the Chinese) is bigoted?? Everyone is biased to their own understanding of the world- they seek to maintain what they perceive to be in their own self interest. I don't see anything wrong with that- "when in Rome".

Dear Canem Malum,

Mormons call non-Mormons gentiles. A Jew ran for governor of Utah. He was making a speech, and a voice called out, "Shut up, you gentile." He said, "I got to come to Utah to be a gentile?" Anyhow he told the story at subsequent rallies and was elected.

I'm reminded of the joke -

A Christian boy and a Jewish boy were firm friends.
When they grew up, one became a priest, the other a
rabbi.

On meeting years later - the rabbi asked his friend
the priest if he had any ambition of going any higher
in his vocation.

The priest smiled, and nodded. The rabbi
asked - "A bishop?" The priest again smiled and nodded.
The rabbi - asked - higher still - "A cardinal?"
Again the priest answered with a smile and a nod.
"What about a Pope?" asked the rabbi.

The priest again smiled an even bigger grin.

The rabbi asked - "How about a Jesus Christ?"

The priest was shocked.

This time it was the rabbi's turn to smile.

He replied:

"Why not, one of our boys made it!"

Dear David f,

Great if all people could live simply and be satisfied with less - as many in developing countries appear to, by necessity.
Plant-based meat substitutes hold promise.

It appears intensive livestock production, notably in China, supposedly gave rise to Swine Flu, SARS and H1N1 Avian Flu - most likely from cross-contamination from wildlife and/or bush-meat in the handling process - resulting in necessary mass destruction of livestock, pigs, chickens and other birds, and some cross-infection of humans from related mutations, SARS in particular.
The Hendra Virus appears also to have propagated from similar cross-contamination from bats. And in Africa the Ebola virus transmitted to humans from monkeys?
Intensive livestock processing and bush-meat handling is suspected as one possible source of Covid-19 in Wuhan.

Providing for mass human populations has attendant hazards, particularly perhaps in a society believing in the medicinal qualities of Pangolin scales, tiger penis and rhinoceros horn, and not having qualms about the destruction of elephants for their tusks rhinoceros for their horns and sharks for their fins.
Superstitions and idiocy surely should belong in the past.

Some vainly rely on technology, gene-manipulation and forest clearing for agriculture and intensive farming to overcome any problems arising from human population increase. Realistic?
But impacts on environment and climate appear of secondary, if any, consideration.

Hence, I did ask the question who are we to judge who or what should survive - when humanity is the cause of all the problems from their decisions and their demands?
Demands with minimal apparent deviation from an exponential?

I fear for environment and bio-diversity from the onslaught of humanity - not for myself, but for the benefit and wellbeing of future generations.
Global systemic annihilation?

A rabbi and a priest having a round of golf and the priest misses a putt - "Sh!t I missed."
Next hole, the same.
Rabbi says "You'd better stop that, or someone might get annoyed."
Next hole, the same - and suddenly the clouds separated and a lightning bolt just missed the priest, and out from the clouds a booming voice - "Sh!t I missed!"

Dear Saltpetre,

I’m afraid many people in developed countries are like my cousin, Myra. She said, “I don’t have to have what my neighbor has. I can wait a month or two”.

I wrote new verses to the old jazz standard:

Five feet two, eyes of blue
Jesus Christ, he was a Jew’
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Big hooked nose, there he goes.
Preaching so that everyone knows.
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Speared in the abdomen by a Roman
Blood gushing out
Rose from the dead, so it is said.
People believe without a doubt.
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Jesus died, still a Jew
Still a Jew, so why aren’t you?
Has anybody seen my Lord?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG5YXZxTPvg is a clip of me singing it

This is interesting perhaps in trying to account for different mindsets between the East and the West. Shame / Fear spectrum of cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%80%93fear_spectrum_of_cultures

http://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/cult-of-face/

"The terminology was popularized by Ruth Benedict in The Chrysanthemum and the Sword, who described American culture as a "guilt culture" and Japanese culture as a "shame culture""

interesting topic, but I am not confident for the survival of many species.

The world will go on in some form, but who knows what it will happen when many species are lost.

Chris Lewis,

Do you know why the hominid find on Flores Island is nicknamed 'hobbit' and how he/she got to be small?

It is amazing how so many people still cling to notions that Humanity is anything more than just a freak of nature. Hence 'special'.

Would all come crashing down if people would just accept that it is general human nature to be caring, empathic and fundamentally good?

Many in the developing world are equally as 'good' in nature as any of the finest in the globalized materialistic world, and their cultures and religious/superstitious beliefs are very different and varied.

Could humanity remain equally stable and even become more stable and considerate of one another if religion and superstition could be retained but without any illusions of humankind being 'special', being a product of some magical mysterious 'plan'?

Homo originated in Africa as fine, black and ready to face the world's and survival's demands. But, from those origins, differences in appearance warranted by varying environmental conditions encountered during the diaspora to inherit the Earth - a natural enough phenomenon, but hyped out of all proportion to suit a 'narrative' - has produced both envy and competition.
Some think they are better than others, and so arises trouble.

When is humanity going to face the reality that we are meant to live 'in harmony' with each other and with our environment, and most definitely not to grossly conquer, dominate and corrupt.
We could live in harmony, if only we were intelligent and caring enough to work 'with nature' instead of blindly rushing to combat and manipulate it beyond all recognition and all sustainability.

Animals in nature do what they need to survive, but Man does not stop short of killing his own kind in pursuit of a grandiose vision of 'survival'.
This must end - Man brought to heel, hopefully through visionary choice.

How to constrain human population increase - the paramount existential challenge of our times. The storm is building.
U.N. 2021,2031,2051,2201...?
Mass species' extinction has a logical inevitable conclusion.
Mars, anyone?

I get so sick of these holier than thou types, who want to tell everyone else how to live.

"When is humanity going to face the reality that we are meant to live 'in harmony' with each other and with our environment", from salty.

Come off it salty, we are not meant to be or do anything. We are born due to an act of sex, not some supreme beings will, & have to make the best of what we inherit.

Many will only survive by fighting against a very nasty nature, which offers not much more than pain & suffering.

It is only because man has used his brain power to dominate nature that most of us can survive. No imagined supreme being or doggoneder has any right to dictate the living of anyone other than themselves. If you want to eat grass, go for it, but stop trying to dictate to others that they should copy you.

Just forget your ideas of being some sort of know it all messiah Salty. You lead your life by your own principles, & let others do so by theirs. Do that & I promise I won't try to make you live by mine.

Dear Hassie,

Trade, travel, and telecommunications have made
the nations of the modern world more interdependent
than ever before. The human population is spread
among a series of sovereign independent states -
most of them with their own armed forces and so there
is a built-in potential for warfare whenever two
nations have conflicting interests.

Therefore it is important for people to no longer take
their world for granted but to understand the social
authorship of their lives and futures.

Whether we choose to destroy our civilization of save it
is a collective decision - and hopefully it is one that
will be made within our own lifetimes.

If instead of thinking only of ourselves,
humans would divert their energy and resources to the
real problems that face us all, including poverty, disease,
overpopulation, injustice, oppression, and the devastation
of our natural environment - we may be able to enhance the
life for everyone on this bright and lovely planet that
we all share.

We are inter-connected.
Whether we like to admit it or not.

cont'd ...

One thing that the restrictions because of COVID have
done in Victoria has shown the real meaning of
community and reliance and inter-action amongst
neighbours. People have come together helping each other.
Taking care of each other. It is one of the positives
that has come out of all this. Nobody has to be lonely
or alone. Help is as far away as the neighbour next door.

black babies in wombs are probably the most endangered species on this planet. Meanwhile we destroy economies and lives saving gay whales.

runner,

You're either trying to provoke, be smart, funny,
or are you off your head?

Don't answer. We'll guess.

Saltpetre wrote: “Would all come crashing down if people would just accept that it is general human nature to be caring, empathic and fundamentally good?”

It would not all come crashing down, but I do not think it is warranted to assume ‘general human nature to be caring, empathic and fundamentally good’. What is your evidence for that assumption?

What evidence there is that human nature is very changeable and adapts to the circumstances. Under Hitler and the Nazis Germany was a totalitarian state that exterminated people and sent dissenters to concentration camps or worse. Present day Germany is one of the most democratic countries on earth and invited in refugees of a different culture.

Colin Turnbull has documented how the Ik changed from a communal society to an individualistic culture under pressure of reduced resources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ik_people

Saltpetre also wrote: “Could humanity remain equally stable and even become more stable and considerate of one another if religion and superstition could be retained but without any illusions of humankind being 'special', being a product of some magical mysterious 'plan'?”

Perhaps humanity might be better off without religion and superstition.

Saltpetre also wrote: Animals in nature do what they need to survive, but Man does not stop short of killing his own kind in pursuit of a grandiose vision of 'survival'.

Ant hills war on other ant hills.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-it-comes-waging-war-ants-humans-have-lot-common-180972169/

Groups of Chimps war on other groups of chimps.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=chimpanzee+warfare&cvid=7701f86de5704186b965c0058fea06e2&FORM=ANAB01&PC=U531

As far as constraining human population we know what is required -
education for women, fairer distribution of resources, sex education, abortion on demand, free access to contraceptives, promotion of sex for recreation and bonding rather than for reproduction.

"Would all come crashing down if people would just accept that it is general human nature to be caring, empathic and fundamentally good?"

that is not the world I observe.

yes, empathy and caring traits are admirable, but there are a whole lot of other behaviours that also exist in this very competitive world where humans are the dominant species.

I am just fortunate to be an Australian, albeit my experience may be different from others.

For all of the problems of the world, I would rather be here than most other places.

Interesting extracts from David F's link...

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/when-it-comes-waging-war-ants-humans-have-lot-common-180972169/

When It Comes to Waging War, Ants and Humans Have a Lot in Common

In both humans and social insects, the capacity to engage in total war seems to hinge on population numbers

The flip side is that the larger the group, the more diverse — and extreme — the aggressive responses to outsiders can be. When considering the often-striking similarities between humans and social insects, one fascinating parallel is the existence of warfare in both.

As human societies grew, so did the forms of aggression open to them, and their scale and intensity.

One likely reason for the possibility of warfare in large societies, among both ants and humans, is simple economics. Big communities are more productive per capita: fewer resources are required to feed and house each individual. The outcome is a reserve labor force that can be quickly deployed as needed —in ants, typically as soldiers. Fortunately, our nations can make choices not open to insects by investing excess labor not just in armies but in a host of other areas, among them entertainment, the arts, and sciences.

Rather than hiding behind stones like Ecuadorian ants, people can also choose to develop alliances among societies of their kind, something ants find impossible. It’s in the pursuit of peace that the brainpower of humans shows our species at its most impressive.

“The Human Swarm: How Our Societies Arise, Thrive, and Fall,”

http://www.amazon.com/Human-Swarm-Societies-Arise-Thrive/dp/0465055680

Does anybody know why the Flores Island 'hobbit' is small?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-45049024

Why are island animals often small?

Understanding the circumstances that produced people with short stature on Flores may also help to explain why normally large animals tend to become small on islands.

The most popular theory is that animals evolve smaller body size in circumstances where the environment or diet is poor over many generations. This may be because smaller individuals are at an advantage because of lower energy needs.

This current study seems to confirm these findings.

"Flores is a magical place where things go and get small," said geneticist Prof Joshua Akey at Princeton University.

Dr Tucci added: "In geographically diverse and environmentally extreme regions, a gene called FADS seems to act like a 'toggle-switch' in helping animals switch to between largely animal or plant-based diets."

Similar changes in FADS genes have been found in Bronze age individuals, as people increasingly began to sustain themselves on plant-based diets from farming vegetables and grains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

Why is the Flores Island 'hobbit' small? Because it was 'caught short'?

Ok now, so human nature is 'mixed' and shortage of means and necessities will often bring out the worst of human nature, but my observation has been that given reasonable opportunity people are more inclined to be cooperative rather than to be isolationist or aggressive.
Competitiveness need not be essential, or even preferable.

Some of course are sociopaths or psychopaths, paranoid or psychotic - Nature? Nurture?
Exceptions do NOT make the rule.

Has it not been amply demonstrated that cooperative societies fare better than combative ones or those ruled by tyrants or despots?
Exodus?

Anyway, have it your own way, golden civilizations have come and gone, and so it may always be.
It's just a pity that in spite of espoused piety, or even of honest reflection, the masses may often be prone to be misled by charismatic or powerful personalities concealing vested self-serving interests.

Hassie, you have fished, and many people like to fish, but if it were not for limits on commercial exploitation you and so many others would find the cupboard bare.
And, what of pollution? Acidification? Exotic viruses or parasites?
Anyway, don't worry, you'll be alright, mate, the world will go on spinning.

Oz could make far better use of its great land mass - by development of opportunity instead of overworking already developed farmland and then moving on to clearing remaining forests. Bradfield scheme(s)?
By so doing our carbon footprint could be totally negated (including in relation to coal and gas exports), but vision fails, and biodiversity suffers.

Flood and drought mitigation and security - need not be 'scotch mist'.

But, not to worry, just aim for the Delta Quadrant, Scottie!
Or, the yellow star on the left.

Each to his own, ye reap what ye sow.

ye reap what ye sow.
Saltpetre,
My problem is that I'm forced to reap what some moron experts sowed !

If humanity became extinct some animals dependent on human intervention such as domestic cattle and sheep would also become extinct. Cats, dogs and goats would probably survive. Plants would insert themselves into crevices in human structures and in company with weather would eventually convert those structures to rubble. Some wild creatures and plants would also become extinct as extinctions have been going on since the beginning of life. However, the rate of extinction would be less than the rate caused by human dominion. The earth would be free from religion, ideology, nationalism, gods and similar inventions of the mind of man. Mothers, and sometimes fathers, of some species would care for their offspring. Animals of some species would continue to have social bonds. Given time, plastics would disintegrate. A species capable of language and abstract thought might or might not evolve. It might be a better world. Do you think it would be a better world if humans would disappear? I'm in favour of it but others first.

Canem Malum,

You are very close in your explanation on the reason the Flores Island 'hobbit' is small.

Apart from being small it also had unusually long feet. Just like the hobbits in Lord of the Rings. Hence the 'hobbit' of Flores Island.

The Flores Island hobbit is actually a Homo Erectus that somehow got to Flores during the height of the last glaciation and became small due to the island effect which results in large mammals becoming smaller and small ones becoming larger. A result of shortage of food in the former and lack of predators in the latter from what I understand.

Apart from being small it also had unusually long feet.
Mr Opinion,
You make that Flores Hobbit sound like a cross between a frog & starving Arts degree Academic. ;-)

individual,

Haw haw haw ........ You funny.

Mr Opinion said- Canem Malum, You are very close in your explanation on the reason the Flores Island 'hobbit' is small.

Answer-

I'm afraid the search engine needs to take the credit on this one- all I did was read and pick the relevant section from the article. But I appreciate your recognition Mr Opinion.

Is there any reason why "The Hobbit" had large feet?

Posted by david f-

Do you think it would be a better world if humans would disappear? I'm in favour of it but others first.

Answer-

Good question

I would like to see humans reduce world population to levels at least under a billion- then do a review. This would take some of the pressure off the natural world and between cultural segments of humanity. And we would still be much better off than we were going the other way through the one billion milestone. This is a 90% reduction in the world population especially given the world population is likely (median estimate) to be over 11 Billion by the end of the century. There will be a lot of problems achieving this goal.

This question touches on the concept as to whether humans are naturally virtuous or not- is man naturally good or bad- from memory this argument also appears between Hobbes/ Locke (ironically both influential in Liberal thought- so perhaps Platonic philosophers should be included here) and Xunzi and Mencius (of Confucian thought).

If humans are naturally "bad"- then perhaps one could naively assert that it would be best that humans disappear. However Hobbes and Xunzi on the "bad side" believed that man could become virtuous through the influence of a virtuous society

Would the world be better off without humans?

To the degree that no other animal would be as dominant, probably.

At least until another major calamity occurs and wipes many animals out, like the past

Dear Canem Malum.

I was trying to get beyond whether humans are good or bad. I was trying to consider humans in regard to our effects on other life forms and the planet. Good and bad are human concepts.

Whether humans are good or bad by some criteria is not relevant. I was wrong in asking if it would be a better world since ‘better’ is a human judgment. If humans disappeared there would be no better or worse.

We can set aside land for habitat of non-human species. Such habitat should be protected from incursions of cats and dogs, predators associated with humans.

Any ideas we have such as valuing biodiversity, democracy or other concepts are all human abstractions. If the planet were a spinning lifeless orb it would still exist.

Hi Saltpetre,

I have to respond to your comment that " ..... it is general human nature to be caring, empathic and fundamentally good ...."

That's the rationale for socialist societies, all of whom rapidly have had to respond to that 'minor' problem of the tiny handful of people who are acquisitive and not as interested in contributing to the common good, who therefore need to be ... umm ... subtracted - of course, for the common good.

So entire classes, rich and middling farmers and peasants (the Soviet Union and China) - capitalists, of course - but also intellectuals (Kampuchea) and various assorted dissidents and malcontents - whose numbers never seem to diminish, have to be safely removed.

So another class of comrades has always had to be created, 'removers', who are skilled with firearms or axes or hammers. So vast pits and trenches have to be dug in out-of-the-way places as accommodation. However, even some of those necessary comrades prove to be unreliable and have to be 'removed'. I'm thinking of the rapid succession of secret police bosses in the USSR between Dzerzhinsky and Vishinsky. Not to mention, of course, a degree of 'unreliability' amongst the leadership which has to be sanitised, Bukharin, Zinoviev, Radek and of course Trotsky; Peng Teh-huai, Liao Shu-chi and Lin Piao.

But on the bright side, of course some of these malcontents may be able to contribute and partly repay for their crimes by ceaseless work in remote prisons - the Zeks in Solzhenitsyn's 'Gulag Archipelago' are a good example, a tribe of people who could dig up the remains of frozen prehistoric creatures, tear chunks off the remains and eat them raw.

The perfect is the mortal enemy of the good. Utopias and 'Perfect Societies' seem to inevitably degenerate - and sometimes very quickly - into fascist regimes. Have there ever been any exceptions to this rule ?

Joe

Canem Malum,

To early to say because it might just be a physical defect of the individual they found. Need to find some more hobbits. The world needs more hobbits.

david f,

I would like a few humans to disappear. Guess who they are.

Perhaps it is not humans only that are a disease of the planet. Perhaps it is life, itself. Should the planet revolve, rotate and nutate in pristine, lifeless purity?

david f,

I see life as a feeder, whether plant or animal.

Our early hominid days were spent as hunter gathers roaming the countryside in search of food. Then we developed civilisation so that we could stay in one place to feed ourselves (agriculture).

Why do you think birds fly south during winter: they go where there is a supply of food in warmer areas.

Why do think spring is a period of regeneration: so that there will be plenty of food available to feed the offspring during warmer months (if they gave birth in autumn how many ofspring would survive the winter?)

We're just a bunch of feeders. How does that make you feel.

We humans (Homo Sapiens) are a threat to the rest of life because we have a superior brain.

... get beyond whether humans are good or bad.
davidf,
The good humans are the ones who don't see the need to occupy pedestals, the bad ones do.
Same goes for effort for the common good, most educated beyond their comprehension fail miserably in that field & those who put in the hard yards get pushed aside AFTER they made their contributions.

David,

Further to my comment above, and right on cue, Misopinionated inadvertently responds with:

"I would like a few humans to disappear. Guess who they are."

Wow, he/she would fit right into a Utopian regime, as a necessary 'remover'. Socialist exterminationism springs eternal.

Joe

Wow, Joe, what got up your nose?
Going from my "people are fundamentally good", to your extermination scenarios, socialism, fascism and all-round death and destruction - of anything and everything 'good'.
Blimey mate, get a grip!

Earth devoid of humans, David f?

I guess that's one way to set aside any further consideration of how current Humanity may finally aspire to 'Humanism' and self-preservation on a planet still worth inhabiting?

We are here, hence we are meant to be here.
So, why can't we review current and past failings and seek a better way to go forward?
Too chicken to face the hard decisions - before we end up at each other's throats for that last 'dandelion'?

You've all gone nuts, and I've got better things to do with my few remaining brain cells.

See ya.

Dear Saltpetre,

Don't give up hope just yet.

Australia is a colony which started as a penal settlement
has led the world. There is so much we can be proud of.
We have characteristics which people throughout the world
remark on. Bill Bryson the travel writer in his book
"Down under said these words:

"The Australian people are immensely likeable - cheerful,
extraverted, quick-witted and unfailingly - obliging.
Their cities are safe and clean and nearly always built
on water. They have a society that is prosperous, well
ordered and instinctively egalitarian".

We read that word a lot, that word - egalitarian, when we
read about Asutralians and Australian values.

Have you heard of the term - "movers and shakers?"

Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy, a poet wrote these words:

We are the music-makers
And we are the dreamers of dreams
Wandering by lone sea-breakers
Ans sitting by desolate streams
World-losers and world forsakers
On whom the pale moon gleams
Yet we are the movers and shakers
Of the world for ever, it seems

So please don't give up just yet.
A person's influence can only be judged at the end
their life. Influential Australians will stand the test of
time, I'm sure. Sophocles said - "One must wait until
the morning to see how splendid the day has been".

In this country we need people who can solve our water problems,
who can lift our Indigenous people from the margins to the
mainstream, who can save our environment from destruction,
and the list goes on. But we are a young country and
our greatest glories are still in front of us.

Saltpetre,

I agree with you, that most people are usually, fundamentally good. But some are not, and some of them pose as so 100 % good and, when coups overthrow governments, sometimes these incredibly 'good' people have seized control', and in the name of 'socialism', of 'the people'.

And soon enough, they very regretfully, have to 'subtract' a handful of people (which ends up being quite a substantial number) in order to keep the rest safe and pure.

Strange, isn't it, how often in such 'people's' societies, the head of the secret police, or someone high up, takes over as the 'people''s beloved leader ? Andropov, Honegger, Pol Pot ?, Putin.

And the case of Putin shows that 'socialism' has nothing much to do with it, it's all about power, the unbroken imperial power transferred from Tsarism to 'socialism' to Putinism.

Joe

Dear Foxy,

In this country we have people who can solve our water problems,
who can lift our Indigenous people from the margins to the
mainstream, who can save our environment from destruction,
and the list goes on.

They will not have the chance to do so because they will never be in any position of power. They will never be in any position of power because they serve neither the interests of the big end of town nor the union bureaucracy.

Posted by david f-

"I was trying to get beyond whether humans are good or bad. I was trying to consider humans in regard to our effects on other life forms and the planet. Good and bad are human concepts.

Whether humans are good or bad by some criteria is not relevant. I was wrong in asking if it would be a better world since ‘better’ is a human judgment. If humans disappeared there would be no better or worse.

We can set aside land for habitat of non-human species. Such habitat should be protected from incursions of cats and dogs, predators associated with humans.

Any ideas we have such as valuing biodiversity, democracy or other concepts are all human abstractions. If the planet were a spinning lifeless orb it would still exist."

Answer-

Lee Smolin apparently considered a bit of a rebel in science says that "life is the universe trying to understand itself".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_of_the_Cosmos

http://www.edge.org/conversation/lee_smolin-leonard_susskind-smolin-vs-susskind-the-anthropic-principle

What you are getting at appears to be similar to paradoxes such as the answer to the question "what would the world be like if I was dead" or "if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it". I find these paradoxes interesting- the classic Zenos paradox and variants are also interesting.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/paradox-zeno/

Maybe David F raised a "paradox" purposefully.

Or maybe it's along the lines of "why are we here".

Maybe there can be a utilitarian principle that includes fauna and flora.

Doctor Manhattan asks similar questions in the "Watchmen" comic created by anarchist Alan Moore.

Human's seem to be the predominant "effect on other life forms" by a margin - but it could be argued that human's having a higher level of consciousness is more valuable in the universe.

Dear David,

I have more faith in the Australian voters.
Being a young country this still gives the people
plenty of capacity to make the right decisions
for our and future generations. Although we have
had failures and although we have not on every
occasion lived up to the best practices, the
Australian achievement - political, economic, and
in lifestyle - is one of the great successes of the
world.

Of course we can do better, and we shall, as long as our
country continues.

cont'd ...

Dear David,

I'm looking forward to the day when we become a
Republic and when we have greater representation
of our current population
in our parliament than we do. It would be good to
get rid of the "club" mentality that has persisted
for so long.

Foxy,

The Australia you have described above has come and gone. We are now an Asian nation-state.

Yours is a description of Australia between post-WW2 and the Great Asianization Period (1980-2020) in Australian history.

The only thing that makes one an Australia today is a piece of paper saying one is a citizen or a permanent residency stamp on a foreign passport.

The Australian that you are thinking of no longer exists.

Stop living in the past Foxy and get out and start putting your Asian identity into practice.

And don't forget to give us all one of your big "Ni hao mates!"

Dear FOULmouth,

When I said to david f "I would like a few humans to disappear. Guess who they are?" I was referring to you and the shadyminister.

Ok Mr O, what is an Asian identity and how do you explain it in the Australian situation?

All I ever here from you is that we are Asian, so start explaining why.

I bet you can't.

Chris Lewis,

What do you think the Great Asianization Period (1980-2020) was all about?

The Asianization of Australia aka Australian Multiculturalism was about creating an Asian nation-state. This has been achieved and we are now all a member of an Asian nation-state.

Please don't tell me you're having second thoughts. A bit late to be changing your mind isn't it?

Dear Foxy,

Regardless of how well-informed, sophisticated and well-meaning the Australian voter is, she or he will not be given a choice by the major parties to do other than support more of the same.

Mr O, you need to explain your generalisation.

Show OLO readers why we are Asian, and what that means.

I don't think you can.

Why not use your writing and thinking skills to write an OLO piece on why Australia is Asian.

All I am asking is for you to explain yourself

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0802/article_718.shtml
http://humanrights.gov.au/about/news/opinions/asianization-australia
http://asiancenturyinstitute.com/international/383-leveraging-the-asianization-of-australia
http://migrationalliance.com.au/immigration-daily-news/entry/2014-08-immigration-asianization-of-australia-would-you-agree.html
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/08/21/the-asianization-australia-part-1-3.html
http://www.thetrumpet.com/170-australia-the-luck-runs-out
http://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/news/the-asiafication-of-australia
http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34568
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/08/the-decline-and-fall-of-australia-has-begun/
http://ironbarkresources.com/articles/mccormack1997winter.htm
http://b-ok.cc/book/3684413/96184c
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/asia-factor-global-hollywood
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-future-is-asian-parag-khanna/1128864408
http://codoh.com/library/document/setback-to-the-struggle-for-free-speech-on-race/en/

Putting Chris Lexis's question to web search got the above- not sure if it's all relevant.

Dear David,

Change may not happen within our generation.
But it has happened, albeit slowly and will
continue to happen, of that I am certain.
I am optimistic about our country's future.

I mean look at the changes
that have already taken place since since
the "White Australia" policy was abolished
and since assimilation was dropped as a
government policy.

Also, today Australia is no longer the cultural
backwater it was once thought to be.

Misop,

I wouldn't stand so close to the welcome door for Chinese rule, if I were you. I don't suppose that any Poles standing on the German border and waving flags of welcome for the Nazis were all that popular in Poland with partisans either.

Are you counting any immigrants as 'Chinese' ? All those from Africa, Indian, the Americas, Europe, the Pacific, south-east Asia, central Asia ? According to the ABS (on:

https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/lookup/3412.0Media%20Release12018-19#:~:text=In%20the%20year%20to%2030,cent%20who%20were%20international%20students )

in 2019, in Australia, out of 7.5 million people from overseas, only 677,000 were from China. Not all of them would support the CCP. Not all of them are going to have large families. Most have come from extremely small families (cf. China's dopey one-child policy), so are unlikely to have many children themselves, if any.

I wonder if you've ever attended a Sociology lecture - you seem to know so little about it, certainly in relation to Australia's population.

Joe

FOULmouth,

You need to embrace your Asianess.

Joe, I think it goes beyond the racial makeup of a country, albeit Australia is made up of many ethnic backgrounds including south and east Asians.

Australia is about a state of mind. IMO, we remain proudly Western, and I don't see how my belief has been undermined in recent decades.

So I am interested in what Mr O has to say with regard to my belief.

I could be wrong, but I want the big O to define how Australia became Asian.

Dear David,

Lets also not overlook the fact that in this country
we do have progressive thinking politicians, business
people, academics, university students, religious
figures, some trade unions, and many voters who
have demanded change in the past and will continue to do so.
We should not underestimate the Australian voter.

Also the world around us is regularly changing as is
Australia's relationship to not only its neighbours but other
countries as well in terms of trade, diplomacy, et cetera.
Political parties cannot afford to ignore what the voters
reject. They do so at their own peril as history has shown.

Chris Lewis,

I think Canem Malum posted a good assortment of articles to demonstrate that the Asianization of Australia was real and its purpose was to make Australia part of Asia particularly in terms of culture and economy and to be a microcosm of Asia rather than Europe, basically a reflection of greater Asia.

We all saw it taking shape and I like to call it the Great Asianization Period (1980-2020) in Australian history.

You give the impression that this is news to you and that you are disappointed that this has happened. Sorry about that, I thought you knew. I'm sure Foxy and FOULmouth can fill you in on the details.

Embrace your Asianess Chris, it's not as bad as you might think.

MR O, you are yet to explain your thoughts on any of your sweeping statements.

why did you do arts degrees if you cannot elaborate upon you statements.

Dear Foxy,

On October 31 I will be 95. I am unreasonable and want change to happen during my life time. My cousin Dorothy on my father's side of the family recently died a few weeks short of 101. My mother's grandfather died at 107. He was born in 1799 and died in 1906. He was a bit too young to be pulled into the czar's army to fight Napoleon.

David,

May you live to 120 !

Joe

I will be living to 150, so join the club.

Chris Lewis or CL,

C=100, and L=50. That adds up to 150.

nice one David.

It is great to see that one can still be vey sharp in their 90s.

Of course, one must have fortune with their health, but I am certainly trying my hardest to stay fit and healthy

Chris Lewis,

david f is a mathematician so it was easy for him to come up with that response. It only took him 2 hours to work it out.

Chris Lewis- "I could be wrong, but I want the big O to define how Australia became Asian."

Answer- My understanding is Mr Opinion is saying that the growth pattern of Asian immigration will replace British Australian's with Asian's.

Asianization of investment in Australia and reliance on Asian markets is influencing and distorting policy- exposing Australia to foreign control and is taking the power away from it's citizens and it's traditions.

Loudmouth- "in 2019, in Australia, out of 7.5 million people from overseas, only 677,000 were from China."

The modifier "only" implies that 677,000 is insignificant. Also 7.5M people that identify as foreign is important in a country of 25M.

Asians don't need a high birth rate to dominate Australia there are already a large number of foreign Asian's that are coming to Australia at greater than replacement rates. China and India are 40 times the size of Australia.

ABS policy- don't maintain statistics on family origins- and so stating your origin is optional- and so the statistics are inaccurate and subverted.

There are also a large percentage of foreign students even in proportion to the Australian population. I know I feel alienated when I go near a university campus. I think it was Mr Opinion that posted the link to the Melbourne tram stop with the minority of British Australian's. Unfortunately the universities don't consider the concerns of their business in other parts of the community.

Note you can control a company with only 17% of the shares- through manipulation of allegiances, etc. At least in a company people can move if they're not happy.

In biology flocking behavior is similar to human behavior.

http://animals.howstuffworks.com/birds/starling-murmurations.htm

The repression of debate on ethnicity- in the name of anti-divisiveness- but really for the benefit of business- enforced by work place policy, doxing, judgement of personal views by employers. In the workplace no longer sufficient to avoid politics but actively show support for an ideology that you don't agree with or risk your security

Sounds like Julia at the Big Brother 1984 rally.

I begin to suspect that this policy is a carefully crafted political strategy. This starts to verge on the claims of QANON which has been discredited by opinion makers.

Stakeholders should question opinion makers from different backgrounds from them- you can't rely on what they say at face value.

Progressive is just another word for Communist.

Every culture should have their own nation.

Dear David,

I hope that you will get your wish and that
the changes you want to see happen, will happen
within your lifetime, rather than later.

I'm optimistic that they will. So much has
already happened within my lifetime.

CM, yes, I understand what he is saying.

But I don't agree that a Western society stops being Western simply from a changing ethnic makeup.

I agree that we need to debate cultural differences rather than merely accept them.

But I am confident we will maintain our western characteristics.

That is why I want to hear Mr O explain why we have become Asian.

I don't see it.

Dear Chris,

The cultural mix today is in our national DNA.
It is part of our lifestyle. It is who we are.
The fact that more than 1 in 4 of us were not
born here is unremarkable - as though it has always
been thus. Many comments celebrate the richness of
our lifestyle that comes through the input of so
many cultures.

Amidst massive national and global change the Aussie
spirit is alive and growing in the 21st century. What
it means to be Australian has morphed to meet the
challenges and diversity of our changing times.

Australians hold strongly to an identity and
"Aussie values" yet today these are more sophisticated
and mature and represent our place in a world of global
interaction.

I recall talking to my grandson a while back, about his
young Chinese friend - Benjamin.

I remember asking my grandson which part of China Benjamin's
family came from.

My grandson replied - "He's an Aussie Baba, and he's from
Melbourne, like us.

Chris Lewis said-

"But I don't agree that a Western society stops being Western simply from a changing ethnic makeup."

Answer-

Do you think Tibet can be Tibet without Tibetans. Or Israel without Hebrew's. I don't think Australia can be Australia without British Australian's. The USA wouldn't even be the USA if we substituted Australian's. To me this is a way of removing British Australian's "from the room". Even international business people are starting to realize the fallacy of their greedy Globalist policies.

Saying that a country doesn't need it's people is to deny the concept of culture. Just because for example The West invented science doesn't mean that The West are a bunch of arbitrary scientists.

Herodotus from memory is the founder of the concept of culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

I believe the Open Science Movement has been influential in Multicultural Policy in science sub-culture.

There appears to be confusion between culture and mass culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

In the United States, Lindlof and Taylor write, "Cultural studies [were] grounded in a pragmatic, liberal-pluralist tradition."[47] The American version of cultural studies initially concerned itself more with understanding the subjective and appropriative side of audience reactions to, and uses of, mass culture; for example, American cultural-studies advocates wrote about the liberatory aspects of fandom.[citation needed] The distinction between American and British strands, however, has faded.[citation needed] Some researchers, especially in early British cultural studies, apply a Marxist model to the field. This strain of thinking has some influence from the Frankfurt School, but especially from the structuralist Marxism of Louis Althusser and others. The main focus of an orthodox Marxist approach concentrates on the production of meaning. This model assumes a mass production of culture and identifies power as residing with those producing cultural artifacts. In a Marxist view, the mode and relations of production form the economic base of society, which constantly interacts and influences superstructures, such as culture.

OK, CM, if you going to use selective evidence, why don't you write off the US, UK, Canada, France and every other advanced Western economy.

It is your choice if u want to claim each culture needs one race, but I don't agree.

Canem Malum,

I disagree with the idea that Herodotus developed the concept of culture.

Have you heard of Franz Boas (Margaret Mead's PhD supervisor)?

Regarding hobbit size one can ask why mice have very small balls. The answer is obvious. Very few know how to dance.

If we look at the origins of the British people they
are a mixture of a multitude of invasions and
settlements over centuries with arrivals from Scandinavia,
Germany, France, and prior to that the Roman Empire.

Since the formation of the British Commonwealth an influx
of various cultures from various colonies contribute to
the British mixture. Even the royal family is a mixture.

Outside Australia's Indigenous people, we are all immigrants
or descendents of immigrants - some earlier than others - but
all with an experience of immigration during the foundation of
modern Australia.

Australia is part of the New World, the world of immigrants,
not part of the Old World or the places they embark from.
This is why we are suspicious of inherited titles and
privileges. Nobody can afford to get too precious about their
position or entitlements in this country because we all know
that position and entitlements are comparatively new.

Australia's immigration experience is also a broad one.
And all these communities have made successful contributions
to Australian life.

Our history books used to tell us "The First Fleet arrived.
It brought 1000 English convicts". It didn't. It brought
1000 convicts but probably they came from a dozen different
countries. English jails were no respecters of nationality".

The first Italian arrived on January 26, 1788 - Giuseppe Tuso.
There were people from South Africa, there were people from
Ceylon, from India, from Spain, from Portugal, from Hungary.

So when people ask - "Do you believe Australia should become
a multi-racial society?" It doesn't really matter what any
of us think. We can tell what it is, which is a society of
tremendous diversity

Foxy,

Yes ....... and now we are all Asian as a consequence of the Great Asianization Period (1980-2020) in Australian history.

Embrace your Asianess Foxy.

Dear David,

My grand-daughter loves the stories of "Angelina
Ballerina" the dancing mouse.

http://www.glamadelaide.com.au/angelina-ballerina-the-mousical/

Mr O,

You said:

"Embrace your Asianess Foxy".

What on earth does that even mean?

You keep banging on about "Asianess" and China,
yet according to the 2016 census only 5.6% of
Australian residents identify themselves as having
Chinese ancestry and numbered a mere - 1,213,903.

And you should also be aware of the fact that although
we pride ourselves on fairness and multiculturalism.
But wander through Sydney's corporate towers or
Canberra's halls of parliament and you'll notice that
Australia's power structure is overwhelmingly white
and nowhere near as diverse as the country at large.

Put another way - 95% of senior leaders in Australia have
an Anglo-Celtic or European background. In simple terms -
white Australians with European roots STILL run nearly
everything.

Dear Foxy,

I used to work with an English fellow, and we became friendly. One day he came into work wearing an unhappy expression, and I asked him what the matter was. He answered, “I had a difference with Sheila. I kept calm although she didn’t. I calmly told her why I differed, and she said, “Don’t you logic me, Bruce Brown.””

Before the war in Poland much of the population was antisemitic. The Nazis killed about 3,000,000. The level of antisemitism is as high as it was before. The percentage of Chinese doesn’t matter more than the percentage of Jews.

My oldest granddaughter, a ship captain, loved ballet and had ambitions in that direction. With her build it is more realistic to captain a ship.

david f,

Are you alright.

No.

david f,

I'm not being facetious. What you constructed above is indicative of someone who might be experiencing a debilitating mental condition. You might want to see a doctor asap.

Dear Mr Opinion,

On June 4, 1989 the Chinese government massacred those Chinese who protested at Tiananmen square. Bob Hawke allowed those Chinese students who didn’t want to go back to stay in Australia. One of those students was Yiyan Wang. She was having trouble with her husband and asked if her 6 year old daughter, Xiao Xiao, could stay with us until matters quieted down. Xiao Xiao stayed with us but was very unhappy. She spoke no English, and we spoke no Chinese. XX cried and cried. I called my friend Cam Louie who was a professor at the University of Queensland and asked if he would talk to XX. He told and assured her that her stay with us was only temporary until her mother and father straightened things out between them. We enrolled XX at the local public school. They had a Chinese speaking teacher visit XX twice a week. We let XX attend the religious education classes even though her mother and we are atheists. We didn’t want her separated from the other children. She came home singing “Who is Jesus”, and I taught her “Yessir, that’s my baby” as an antidote. That was years ago, but we have remained friends. When we get together we sing “Yessir, that’s my baby”.

Yiyan got her Phd, got divorced and is now head of a department at Wellington University in New Zealand. XX is a buyer for a fashion house and lives in New York City. Christmas of last year Yiyan, XX, XX’s baby and XX’s husband came from the US and NZ to visit us. It was a wonderful visit, and I think we all shed a tear at parting.

Next to our families Yiyan Wang and her mob are our closest friends.

Yes, I experience a debilitating medical condition when I read such crap from you “What would you do about Australia's invasive species: foxes, rabbits, cane toads, Chinese.” I don’t need to see a doctor. I just accept the fact that you are what you are. I will not answer any more emails from you.

david f,

You are one of the success stories of the Great Asianization Period (1980-2020) in Australian history.

Chris Lewis said-

OK, CM, if you going to use selective evidence, why don't you write off the US, UK, Canada, France and every other advanced Western economy.
It is your choice if u want to claim each culture needs one race, but I don't agree.

Answer-

Are you / weren't you based in western Canada? Your Tax Paper looks interesting but I couldn't access it through Tor. But I did look up the economist- an addition to my reading list.

I don't disagree with all of your views however I did on this one.

What selective evidence? Much of everyone's evidence is selective. You yourself said that academic journal articles are biased.
My evidence probably serves as a contradiction to your "evidence"- it probably is selective- but interesting.

You don't agree- that's fine with me. I believe that more people need to question the validity of certain paradigms- for their own interest.

For the record what I said was "Every culture should have their own nation" NOT "each culture needs one race".

My point is Australian's have been bullied/ engineered into Multiculturalism for fifty years by various special interest groups- probably since WWI and WWII- the implementation has created it's own momentum as more and more foreigners come to Australia- there is a large minority if not a majority of Australian's that believe that immigration policy and multiculturalism is wrong. Yet the authorities and institutions continue to ignore it.

I understand it's not easy to accept a view that threatens your world. Hopefully in the future we can find places in the world for everyone. However I'm concerned that some rely on feeding off the global hierarchy- rather than being self sufficient. I prefer self sufficiency. This is the irony of Locke.

Academia is currently a global pursuit- some have said that universities are now businesses and have lost their founding spirit.

Plato believed that philosopher kings could be created by centres of learning- now business emperors create centres of "learning".

A global hierarchy is the ultimate tyranny- see Alexis de Tocqueville.

All views have a place in Jung's Archetypes- Individual/ Social/ Chaotic/ Ordered/ Good / Bad. I believe that Jung created them so people could be more balanced.

Mr Opinion said-

Canem Malum, I disagree with the idea that Herodotus developed the concept of culture. Have you heard of Franz Boas (Margaret Mead's PhD supervisor)?

Answer-

I'll have to check up on Herodotus.

http://www.britannica.com/topic/ethical-relativism

It appears I was referring to ethical relativism- I'm sure this is very important in culture- thanks Mr Opinion for your correction.

I'm not that familiar with Boas but are you referring to? (I'll need to add Boas to my reading list.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas

The essence of Boas's approach to ethnography is found in his early essay on "The Study of Geography"...

This orientation led Boas to promote a cultural anthropology characterized by a strong commitment to

Empiricism (with a resulting skepticism of attempts to formulate "scientific laws" of culture)
A notion of culture as fluid and dynamic
Ethnographic fieldwork, in which the anthropologist resides for an extended period among the people being researched, conducts research in the native language, and collaborates with native researchers, as a method of collecting data, and
Cultural relativism as a methodological tool while conducting fieldwork, and as a heuristic tool while analyzing data.

Boas argued that in order to understand "what is"—in cultural anthropology, the specific cultural traits (behaviors, beliefs, and symbols)—one had to examine them in their local context. He also understood that as people migrate from one place to another, and as the cultural context changes over time, the elements of a culture, and their meanings, will change, which led him to emphasize the importance of local histories for an analysis of cultures

Foxy said-

Our history books used to tell us "The First Fleet arrived.
It brought 1000 English convicts". It didn't. It brought
1000 convicts but probably they came from a dozen different
countries. English jails were no respecters of nationality".

Answer-

Most of the locations and names look British to me.

http://firstfleetfellowship.org.au/first-fleetfirst-fleet-convict-database/

Name Surname Male/ Female Ship Trial Date Court/Asizes Crime Sentence Occupation Age Outcome

This looks interesting...

http://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/modern-asian-studies/article/sexuality-masculinity-and-politics-in-chinese-culture-the-case-of-the-sanguo-hero-guan-yu/FE0E474496C44B0D3EBA1D45FFD969B1

http://www.cambridge.org/core/search?filters%5BauthorTerms%5D=Kam%20Louie&eventCode=SE-AU

Hi Foxy,

Totally off the subject, finally picked up from the Brisbane City Library a copy of Tara June Winch's book 'The yield'. Just started reading and it's a very good work. I can easily see why it won this years Miles Franklin Award.

p/s A bit overloaded with library books at the moment, all my holds have come at once. I"ll have to get cracking with the above as I'll only have it for 4 weeks, due to demand, the last time I looked, 50 library copies and 150 holds, that's very high.

CM, I withdraw your use of selective evidence. I did not read all of it properly and rushed my response.

I would have done it earlier, but ran out of posts on this thread.

I still think Australia can remain a Western society regardless of the ethnic makeup, as long as Australia remains committed to the rule of law, a free press, and pluralism.

I agree all issues should be open to debate, including cultural differences. I do not accept all cultures as being equal and I would rather a more diverse immigration intake that is also lower in numbers

And yes we all use selective evidence, but one must try and be balanced.

I try, but I am sure I miss a lot of info that should be included.

There is so much to know.

Hi David, Mr O.

Great story David, and Mr O there is no need to liken Chinese people to vermin or pests, no people deserve that kind of comparison. Did you know China is the 8th largest Christian country in the world by population, an interesting fact.

Paul1405,

They're not my words. I'm just citing Jared Diamond's comment in his 'Collapse'. And I meant it as a joke.

david f lacks what a lot of vocationally trained people lack: critical thinking skills. Like the shadyminister and LOUDmouth he just flies off the handle at the drop of a hat.

You have to remember these three characters belong to the pro-Chinesa camp. They worship Andrew Forrest and they think the sun shines out of his ass.

Dear Paul,

Glad to hear that you're keeping busy with your reading
and Thanks for the Tara Winch book referral. My favourite
book shop - "Readings" appears to have re-opened so I'
shall be paying them a visit soon. At the moment I'm into
children's books for my grandchildren. "The One and Only
Ivan" and "Ghostbear" are just two I'm after.

I was going to look into Woodward's "Rage" but I'm not yet
ready for anything political - too depressive.
I've had enough - the politics on this forum is about as
much as I can take right now.

Dear David,

Thank You for sharing your story. You are an inspiration.
Every since I was a child - I was made to feel "different"
because of not only my appearance (long red hair, green eyes)
but mainly because of my unpronouncable first name and surname.
So I know what it feels like to be excluded.

My mentor at school was my English Mistress - Rebecca Bowen,
who raised my self esteem and instilled in me a love of
Shakespeare.

Dear Foxy.

My mother had red hair and green eyes. I don’t know if she was made to feel different for it. Her parents were not English speaking, and everybody else in their small village was French-Canadian. My grandmother got pregnant in the Lower East Side in New York City. Deciding that was not a good place to raise children they relocated to the Adirondack Mountains. Although my mother was born in Brandon, NY which no longer exists she spoke French before she spoke English. She learned English in a one-room schoolhouse. Her teacher was a Scot from Ontario, and my mother wound up with a Scottish accent, said wee instead of small and used other Scottish locutions.

I never had any problems in school, but my older son was picked on possibly because he was the only blond kid in his class. He turned out to be a tough kid, and his younger brother never had any problems because of his big brother. They have an intense sibling rivalry. When Seth was two and Wm was 4 they were sitting in the back seat of a car, and Seth said, "No matter how old I'll get Wm will be two years older."

There was a rather unprepossessing girl in my daughter’s third grade class. She had freckles, pimples and wore glasses. Some girls formed an “I hate Karen Frego” club and invited Rebecca to join. Rebecca became a friend of Karen Frego, and I was proud of her.

My favorite teacher in high school was Miss McBurney. My weakest area is languages, and she made Latin interesting

Is this called the "Mean Girls" effect?

david f,

Sounds to me like you're slipping away to Neverland.

Are you sure you're alright? I'm getting very worried about you.

If you do get to Neverland could you send us a selfie of you standing in front of Captain Hook?

Dear David,

Thank You again for sharing your story.

Have you ever considered writing a book?

It would be an interesting story with
vast appeal.

cont'd ...

I can't recall if I ever shared the following with
you - but if I have bear with me. It's about
kids who are different:

Growing pains:

Here's to the kids who are different
The kids who don't always get A's
The kids who have ears
Twice the size of their peers
Or noses that go on for days

Here's to the kids who are different
The kids who are just out of step
The kids they all tease
Who have cuts on their knees
And whose sneakers are constantly wet

Here's to the kids who are different
The kids with a mischievous streak
For when they have grown
As history has shown
It's their difference that makes them unique.

(Digby Wolfe wrote this for The Goldie Hawn TV Special -
back in the 1970s).

Hi David,

A bit above Misop's comprehension level :)

Yes, the wonderful Danny Kaye had red hair and green eyes. Leslie Howard was blonde. Jews are funny like that.

Marx was described as 'swarthy' [in German, 'schwartz']: he was stopped in Spain coming back from a summer holiday in Morocco because they thought he was African. His colleague Engels used to write to him as 'Mohr', which I suppose is a play on the German words for 'moor', 'Moor', and 'marsh'.

Come to think of it, my step-grandfather - I think he was Sephardi North African (he wore a fez on Friday nights), born maybe in the Voivodina or the Banat - was almost black. But he was a nudist, so it was hard to tell.

Happy Rosh Hashanah ! And another thirty of them :)

Warmest regards,

Joe

Dear Joe,

There's quite a few famous actors with red hair
and green eyes. From Drew Barrymore, Emma Stone,
Julianne Moore, Lindsay Lohan, Tilda Swinton,
Gillian Anderson, to the "golden oldies" like
Maureen O'Hara, Ann Margret, and many more.

Didn't Elizabeth I, have red hair and green eyes?

I can't recall. I'll have to look it up.

cont'd ...

I know Henry VIII had red hair. Not sure about his eyes
though.

cont'd ...

Where does Prince Harry's hair colour come from?

Foxy,

From his Dad.

Dear Loudmouth2,

Leslie Howard seemed to me the quintessential goy (Ashley Wilkes, The Scarlet Pimpernel) . I looked him up on the net, and he is an MOT. Jewish tradition has it that King David was a red head. My Aunt Miriam looked like Danny Kaye in drag.

As a kid before the era of golf carts I used to caddy at the Lake Placid Club. The LPC did not allow Jews to stay there, but Jews could work there. I got lot of work as the tow-headed kid. Mr Cantwell, a puritanical Catholic and a lovable fellow, was one of my teachers. In those days the poolroom and the bowling alley were only for low lives. Mr Cantwell thought golf was beyond the pale, also. He said, “Children, you know what a golf course is? That’s a poolroom turned outdoors.

Marx had Jewish ancestry, but he was ignorant of his heritage being converted to the Lutheran religion at the age of six. He was a classical scholar and a Jew hater.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/893755.Jewish_Self_Hatred

Jewish Self-Hatred: Anti-Semitism and the Hidden Language of the Jews
by Sander L. Gilman
“'Jewish Self-Hatred' has all the qualities of a master work by a seminal mind. It is a contribution of the first rank and should be regarded as one of the finest studies we are likely to see for a long time of a remarkable and sobering cultural phenomenon.--Chaim Potok, 'Philadelphia Inquirer. 'A broad panorama of antisemitism...Gilman's volume has the great merit of a quite unusual breadth of reference.--'Times Literary Supplement.'”

Gilman devotes a chapter to Marx.

In my opinion The Communist Manifesto is a recipe for mass murder.

https://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12693 points to my article addressing that.

Dear Foxy,

Samuel Noah Kramer of the University Museum of the University of Pennsylvania has translated many cuneiform tablets produced by the ancient Sumerians. As near as I can remember one of the tablets was written by a Sumerian old fogy bewailing the times and went like this:

Young people no longer respect their elders. Children no longer respect their parents, and everyone wants to write a book.

My note: Everyone wants to write a book, but everyone shouldn't write a book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Noah_Kramer

You can load a fascinating book he wrote at;

https://archive.org/stream/Kramer1956HistoryBeginsAtSumer/Kramer_1956_History_Begins_at_Sumer_djvu.txt

Sumer was a couple of thousand years before those who wrote the Jewish Bible but the Bible incorporated many Sumerian legends. Sumer also had the first recorded instance of many other things which you can see from the table of contents:

"1 Education: The First Schools 3

2 Schooldays: The First Case of "Apple- Polishing" 10

3 Father and Son: The First Case of Juvenile Delinquency 14

4 International Affairs: The First "War of Nerves" 18

5 Government: The First Bicameral Congress 30

6 Civil War in Sumer: The First Historian 36

7 Social Refonn: The First Case of Tax Reduction 45

8 Law Codes: The First "Moses" 51

9 Justice: The First Legal Precedent 56

10 Medicine: The First Pharmacopoeia 60

11 Agriculture: The First "Farmer's Almanac" 65

12 Horticulture: The First Experiment in Shade- Tree Gardening 70

13 Philosophy: Man's First Cosmogony and Cosmology 75

14 Ethics: The First Moral Ideals 101

15 Suffering and Submission: The First "Job" 1 1 1

16 Wisdom: The First Proverbs and Sayings 116

17 "Aesopica”: The First Animal Fables

124

Page viii

18 Logomachy: The F irst Literary Debates 132

19 Paradise: The First Biblical Parallels 141

20 A Flood: The First "Noah" 148

21 Hades: The First Tale of Resurrection 154

22 Slaying of the Dragon: The First "St. George" 168

23 Tales of Gilgamesh: The First Case of Literary Borrowing"

continued

24 Epic Literature: Man's First Heroic Age 223

25 To the Royal Bridegroom: The First Love Song 245

26 Book Lists : The F irst Library C atalogue 250

27 World Peace and Hannony: Man's First Golden Age 255

28 Ancient Counterparts of Modem Woes: The First "Sick" Society 259

29 Destruction and Deliverance: The First Liturgic Laments 270

30 The Ideal King: The First Messiahs 277

3 1 Shulgi of Ur: The F irst Long- Distance Champion 284

32 Poetry: The First Literary Imagery 289

33 The Sacred Marriage Rite: The First Sex Symbolism 303

34 Weeping Goddesses: The First Mater Dolorosa 325

35 U-a a-u-a: The First Lullaby 329

36 The Ideal Mother: Her First Literary Portrait 333

37 Three Funeral Chants: The First Elegies 336

38 The Pickaxe and the Plow: Labor's First Victory 342

39 Home of the Fish: The First Aquarium 34

Dear David,

Talking about tablets and Sumer.

One of the greatest sources of information on ancient
Mesopotamia is the so called "King's List", a clay
tablet that documents the names of the ancient rulers
of Sumer as well as the lengths of their reigns.

The list is a strange blend of historical fact and myth -
on early king is said to have lived for 43,200 years - but
it also included Sumer's lone female monarch in the
form of Kubaba, a "woman tavern keeper" who supposedly
took the throne in the city-state of Kish sometime
around 2500 B.C.

Very little is known about Kubaba's reign or how she came
to power, but the list credits her with making -
"firm the foundations of Kish" and forging a dynasty that
lasted 100 years.

There's more at the following link:

http://www.history.com/news/9-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-ancient-sumerians

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for the reference to Sumer.

In regards to their beer making I read that the oldest archeological evidence of organized warfare is apparently an attack to take beer by raiding a settlement and killing the brewers.

Re their preference for lapis lazuli my Uncle Harry who lived in Arizona mentioned that they also in that area of the Middle East made jewelry of turquoise and silver. When the horse was domesticated they adorned horses with bridles decorated with turquoise and silver. When that area was conquered by the Arabs the Arabs adorned their horses in a similar matter and took it with them when they invaded Spain. When the Christians reconquered Spain they picked up the Arab or Moorish styles. The Spanish brought the style to what is now the southwest of the United States along with the horse. The American Indians got the horse and the turquoise ornamentation from the Spaniards, and they make, use and sell those items in Arizona.

It was interesting that the ancient Sumerians had a female ruler, and the USA is not there yet.

In regard to me writing a book on my life I thought of my interesting life and Flaubert. Emma Bovary was a stupid woman who had a sordid affair. However, Flaubert was a great writer, and “Madame Bovary” is a great book. I have led an interesting life but am not a great writer. If I wrote a book on my life the book would probably be no more interesting than Madame Bovary’s biography written by Madame Bovary.

Dear David,

I love reading your posts here on the forum.
You're unique way of viewing things broaden
our conversations. And you write in a way
that holds my interest - so I can
imagine that the story of your life would be
an interesting one. Plus you have a wicked sense
of humour which I love. Please don't under-estimate
yourself or the fact the people would not want to read
what you write. Wrong on both counts as far as I'm
concerned.

And look at what you've done just recently. You've
aroused my interest in "The Sumerians". A subject
that I'd long laid to rest.

Hi David,

I threatened my mum that I wouldn't come and see her again until she started audio-taping her memoirs. She never did, but I buckled, of course. Then I found out that she had lived for more than a year with the son of a prime minister. And that her dad served under Banjo Paterson. They had words, it seems.

But have you thought of doing that ? I'm sure you would have met some amazing people - our lives cross paths with the most unexpected people. I met Igor Oistrakh once. And Kath Walker. I gave Helen Hughes a big hug the last time I saw her. And many others, like most people do, I'm sure. We go to school and study with, or live near, people who make major contributions, or become famous, much later.

You can always embargo any memoirs until a suitably later date :)

Joe

It's great the Sumerian civilisation and many since learned important lessons, made rules, developed and achieved. But, I suppose like many others, disappeared - not that 'disappearing' is great, just that it seems the natural evolution, to be conquered, absorbed or scattered.

So many competent, developing, progressive 'cultures' we can thank for advancements in science, medicine, literature, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy, philosophy, ethics, government, democracy, legislature, jurisprudence, courts, prisons, armaments and warfare - for peace and security or conquest and expansion.

I wonder why these earlier civilisations died?

From the little I know of history some got too big and overly exploited local resources and food supply, or became a target for less-developed warlike hordes, or became complacent and collapsed, or perhaps suffered devastating epidemics (as many peoples suffered when visited by outsiders carrying unfamiliar scourges).

However, one component of downfall seems perhaps to be endemic, and that is unfettered population growth placing unmanageable stress on resources - resulting in depletion or destruction.

In our age similar stresses are evident, but of even greater magnitude, and with the concurrent problem of climate change - most probably induced by excessive industrial development dependent on fossil fuel energy - and with other forms of global decay, pollution and environmental degradation.

Runner would have us believe our Australian system of public health, welfare, education, government, public service and social services is generally defective, corrupt, unreliable and not good enough.

I wonder what system might work effectively in Australia if welfare was restricted to only those who cannot work and kin who care for them, and otherwise only for a limited time for those seeking work.

Are we bordering on a socialist system as regards welfare - but one where so many are able to simply choose not to work?

What might our current pandemic look like without welfare and without the extra handouts - which still don't apply to many visa holders, students, casuals and self-employed.

Oz - too 'easy'? Not easy enough?

Saltpetre,

Re early Mesopotamian civilizations like Sumerian you ask "I wonder why these earlier civilisations died?'.

They collapsed because they overexploited their environment turning the fertile irrigated farming land they had developed into a dust bowl (which it still is today as a consequence of that overexploitation.)

What happened? The water in the extensive canalised irrigation systems (drawn from the Tigris-Euphrates) serving the city-states kept evaporating drawing salt to the surface until the land became so salinated that it was useless for agriculture. And the city-state civilizations of Mesopotamia that were so heavily dependent on agriculture could no longer be sustained.

Australia is headed down the same path with its irrigated farmlands eg Murray-Darling Basin. Large tracts of irrigated land have be given over to growing Chinese cotton and when the land becomes ruined by salinization and no use for agriculture the Chinese will pack up and move their cotton growing operations somewhere else: Environmental degradation is one of China's biggest exports.

When I say Chinese cotton I mean Chinese cotton. The Chinese actually own the cotton being grown but are using massive quantities of cheap Australian water to grow their cotton (1600 kg of water needed for each kg of cotton produced.) The cotton is sent to China where it is turned into clothing which is sold back to Australia at a huge profit. You might say that China is destroying the M-D Basin. FOULmouth, Foxy, david f, Phil, and others in the pro-China camp, don't want you knowing about this because it might cause un-multiculturalism.

Dear Saltpetre,

From death comes life. Our ancestors mostly are dead. We rarely have ancestors more than one or two generations back alive. However, we carry them in our genes. We carry their attitudes in our behaviour.

We carry the 369 degree circle, the 60 second minute, the 60 minute hour, the invention of gods, democratic assemblies, chosen people, the wheel, domesticated animals and other ideas and social forms from the societies and people who have first thought of these things. Our societal forms, customs and knowledge are inherited from the past. Added to that is what we are developing today.

Just as my physical being is the product of the physical beings of my ancestors minus the genes of my ancestors that were not transmitted some of the social developments of the past is lost. My wife and I speak English predominately, but several generations back none of our ancestors spoke English. Going back further in time the English language did not exist. We exist in a world of change. From death comes life.

david f,

I love the way you are always talking about the Arts things like history, archaeology, anthropology, sociology, philosophy, etc.

If I didn't know you were a mathematician I would swear you were a sociologist, anthropologist, historian, or someone else with an Arts background.

I suppose it is just a case of you knowing that no one is interested in hearing you talk about Laplace transforms, multivariable calculus, etc.

Due to our limited water resources cotton should not be grown in Australia.

This is interesting maths...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction

david f,

It's not just a water problem in Australia that we have to worry about,

Very few areas of the country have fertile soils (geologically speaking). Most of the land is sandy soils where the nutrients in the soil are provided by the sparse vegetation.

Several years of intensive agriculture, in all but a few places that are blessed eg Wheat Belt in SW WA, results in overexploitation and environmental degradation of the land.

So the problem is more complex than just the water issues.

Large-scale irrigation results in salination, making the land useless for farming similar to what happened in ancient Mesopotamia. The only way to get rid of the salt is by intensive flushing with water. This is definitely a problem because we don't have a constant reliable source of water in the M-D Basin.

So I definitely agree with you that cotton should not be grown in Australia. But try to telling that to the Chinese because they're the ones doing it!

Canem Malum,

I did a lot of maths when I did my engineering degree and loved it but today it scares the sh!t out of me.

https://cottonaustralia.com.au/cotton-grower-association lists the names of the office holders of 14 of the cotton growers associations in Australia. All the names are Anglo or Irish.

david f,

Yes aren't they now ........ just like Cubbie Station for example.

Do you really think they will advertise their presence and activities in Australia in great big yellow Chinese characters on a red background? Not what one would exactly call good advertising strategy if one wants to keep his activities hidden from the public.

You need to start thinking critically rather than relying on your rote learning skills that got you through mathematics.

Paranoia does without or rationalizes a lack of evidence for its delusions.

What a ridiculous statement David F. Obviously from a city boy.

A friend of mine, near retirement is the third generation farming 1600 acres of black soil treeless plane near Jandowae. Dry land, mostly grain farming, in his young years one one good crop every 3 years gave them a reasonable living. Today the economics of farming is less good, & they require one good crop every 2 years to make a living.

Due to our variable rainfall is is not reasonable to expect a good crop every 2 years. They have experimented with a number of crops, but the only thing that has kept their farm viable is cotton. This is dry land cotton, so requires better rainfall than wheat, but is so much more profitable than any thing else they can find, just one successful crop in 4 years, of just 250 acres of cotton, along with about 800 of grain, in rotation gives them a living.

They only plant cotton when they have high soil moisture from a good season, & the prospect, [la nina], of good rains.

Not only is cotton very profitable, it has very deep roots that penetrate deep, opening up the soil, allowing much deeper penetration of rain. He tells me you can see by the stronger wheat, which part of the paddock had cotton in it last year, even with a failed cotton crop.

I suggest you gather more facts in future before making such fearless statements, that cotton should not be grown in Oz

"From death comes life."

From cataclysm comes construction - bang to supernovas to elements to fabric order, orbit, collision, eruption, aqua-comets, cooling, settling, attraction, repulsion, electromagnetism, cosmic dust and - sunrise.

From amino-acid primordial soup comes single-celled bacteria;
From cell collision and combination comes 'evolution';
From algal photosynthesis comes oxygen atmosphere - and iron ore;
From competition comes versatility and exploration - Aqua to Terra;
From marine deaths comes oil, from forest deaths comes coal;
From eruption comes igneous, from tectonic comes titans, from aqua comes rain, rivers, waterfalls, gorges, lakes, erosion and sediment;
From sediment comes prehistory;
From Coelacanth to Dinosaur to Mammalia to Hominid and bird-song;
From opportunity comes horizons;
From life comes death, from death - resurrection;
From ignorance comes dawn; from conceit comes conflict; from competition comes exploitation; from exploitation comes turmoil; from turmoil comes revision - or annihilation.

The age of excess, entitlement, ambition, individualism, competition, corruption, enlightenment and confusion, technology and abuse, glory and dysfunction, love and hate, aggrandizement and deprivation, place and displacement, prospect and turmoil, and - a new awakening or a setting sun?

Life - is in our hands.

Saltpetre,

I see you're into Big History.

Phil,

Where does your friend's cotton end up?

interesting post Hasbeen.

There is so much to know.

I watch Landline, and we do have some very innovative farmers.

Chris Lewis,

I know a couple of Aussie farmers: Mr Bau Wau and Ms Me Au.

Nice people but they fight with each other like cats and dogs.

Dear Saltpetre,

From death comes life but not resurrection. Life that comes from death is in a different form. The same game is not played twice.

Dear Hasbeen,

I could be wrong.

Hypercomplex Numbers- Quaternion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion

Maybe this is better.

Quaternions are generally represented in the form:

a + b i + c j + d k

i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1

Quaternion plaque on Brougham (Broom) Bridge, Dublin, which says:

Here as he walked by
on the 16th of October 1843
Sir William Rowan Hamilton
in a flash of genius discovered
the fundamental formula for
quaternion multiplication
i^2 = j^2 = k^2 = ijk = -1
& cut it on a stone of this bridge

An ancient giant tree crashes down in the forest, making way for underbrush to flourish and long-dormant seeds to germinate, and offering sustenance and opportunity to a myriad - including the decayers, recyclers, fungi, ground dwellers needing nesting sites, and perhaps opportunity for unforeseen new possibilities.

Death and decay give rise to new life, to resurgence, birth, and seeds of evolution - a resurrection of vigour and form and possibility.

War precedes peace, stress precedes evolution, inspiration precedes advancement, disaffection precedes revolution, and superabundance precedes change and possible innovation but also supercharges possibilities for disease, for decimation and for destruction.

When single-use plastics are replaced with sustainable biodegradable alternatives, when forests and biodiversity are nurtured, oceans cleansed and respected, resources used sustainably and all life respected, then may we finally start to deserve our continued place in nature and our right to exist.

Dear Saltpetre,

This is the forest primeval
the murmuring pines and the hemlocks
Bearded with moss and in garments green
indistinct in the twilight
Stand like Druids of old
with voices sad and prophetic
Stand like harpers hoar, with
beards that rest on their bosoms

--- Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
- Evangeline.

Excelsior

"Excelsior!"

Ever upward. Very apt!

A bit of trivia:

Stan Lee, the legendary Marvel writer and publisher
who helped create countless superheroes made that
Latin word his life motto - "Excelsior!"
To him it was more than just a catchphrase.

He died in 2018, age 95.

Thanks for your feedback Foxy.

This is interesting...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wadsworth_Longfellow

In the fall of 1822, 15 year-old Longfellow enrolled at Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Maine, along with his brother Stephen.[9] His grandfather was a founder of the college[12] and his father was a trustee.[9] There Longfellow met Nathaniel Hawthorne who became his lifelong friend.[13] He boarded with a clergyman for a time before rooming on the third floor[14] in 1823 of what is now known as Winthrop Hall.[15] He joined the Peucinian Society.

http://students.bowdoin.edu/peucinian/history/

Pinos loquentes semper habemus (We always have the whispering pines)

Canem Malum,

You're incredible!

I'm assuming from your comment- that you enjoyed it- I did too.

Canem Malum,

Did he get a BA from the college. It's not worth two bits if he didn't get a BA.

Canem Malum,

I did enjoy it very much. One of my majors was English
Lit. Brought back so many lovely memories.
Put a lump in my throat.

Not sure Mr Opinion but I suspect you're correct in 1825. Your strength in this area is surely greater than mine. Arvin seems to be a well sourced reference in regards to Longfellow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wadsworth_Longfellow#Early_life_and_education
http://archive.org/details/longfellowhislif00arvi

Though a somewhat conservative he appears a slightly too progressive as a person for me- his poetry is interesting- a participant in the American Salon Culture it seems. Perhaps a case of the man not fully living up to his works- greatness glimpsed but not attained. But he deserves the benefit of doubt.

But those that came after him were perhaps much more progressive.

The Battle of Lovell's Pond

Mr. Longfellow's first verses, so far as known, printed in the Portland Gazette, November 17, 1820.
Portland Gazette 1820

Cold, cold is the north wind and rude is the blast
That sweeps like a hurricane loudly and fast,
As it moans through the tall waving pines lone and drear,
Sighs a requiem sad o'er the warrior's bier.

The war-whoop is still, and the savage's yell
Has sunk into silence along the wild dell;
The din of the battle, the tumult, is o'er,
And the war-clarion's voice is now heard no more.

The warriors that fought for their country, and bled,
Have sunk to their rest; the damp earth is their bed;
No stone tells the place where their ashes repose,
Nor points out the spot from the graves of their foes.

They died in their glory, surrounded by fame,
And Victory's loud trump their death did proclaim;
They are dead; but they live in each Patriot's breast,
And their names are engraven on honor's bright crest.

So much for the Environment (and for Learning).
It would appear that perhaps only those on the 'Autism Spectrum' can actually 'get it'.

Aus moving away from burning coal - but exporting it to all and sundry like there's no tomorrow.
Aus relative Zero contribution to global emissions, but determined to make up for open-slather expansionism and exponential emissions-growth in the rest of the globe?
Sane? Sensible? Realistic?

Greens in glass castles, residing comfortably in urban domains can only see Renewables as the saviour of our souls, when the solution to all our woes lies in developing our superabundant semi-arid land masses for Agriculture, for new massive Forests, and NEW Hope for water capture and storage to waterproof Aus against droughts AND floods and food security - as well as coincidentally preserving and protecting remaining biodiversity and human sanity.

Wood for Trees?
No more of Aus' old-growth forests should be logged - and absolutely NO Clear-Felling, and current cleared agricultural land used carefully, responsibly and sustainably.
Agro-forestry should be our supply of sustainable timber, exclusively.

Gordon-on-Franklin was a great save, but guaranteeing our future is not so simple, and saying no to coal is saying no to grasping the only nettle we've got and to going full-on gang busters on what we really need to do build our nation's future for all generations to come.

Environment and bio-preservation must never be sacrificed.
We have opportunity.
We have the means and the natural resources.
We need only the vision, the guts, the determination.

The Nationals (and the Greens) will need to lift their game and re-write their copy books to embrace the realities of the progress we really need to make and the means we must of necessity embrace to get there.

We may not save the world, but we can and must save our own integrity.