There was quite a bit of flack directed at the man who owns the copyright of the Indigenous flag when the AFL announced they would not be painting on the playing surface during this weeks Indigenous round.

Having looked at the circumstances I tend to side with the owner. He is more than happy if people want to make their own flags using his design but is insisting on royalties if money is being made from it.

The flag is indeed one of the three recognised as our nations flags. Should that make a difference?

the man who owns the copyright of the Indigenous flag
SteeleRedux,
What do we know about him. Is he indigenous ? If not, why has he the copyright ? I'd have thought the flag was indigenous in every aspect !

Dear individual,

FYI.

"The Australian Aboriginal Flag was designed in 1971 by Aboriginal artist Harold Thomas, who is descended from the Luritja people of Central Australia and holds intellectual property rights to the flag's design. The flag was originally designed for the land rights movement, and it became a symbol of the Aboriginal people of Australia."

"After consultation with its Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Advisory Council, the AFL did not enter into a commercial agreement with WAM in 2020, in line with general Aboriginal sentiment on the issue. In August 2020, Ken Wyatt, Minister for Indigenous Australians, said that he would love to see the flag freely used across Australia, and former AFL player Michael Long said its absence would have a negative effect on the players in the Sir Doug Nicholls Indigenous Round. Wyatt encouraged spectators to bring flags to the games, beginning in Darwin on 22 August 2020."
Wikipedia

SteeleRedux,
I'm afraid I can't fathom what the problem is with displaying the flag ! After all, didn't he design it for his people ? Aren't the Sir Douglas Nicholls games for the indigenous ?
Is it because football is not a traditional indigenous activity ?
I'm at a loss about the whole bizo !

Australia should not be promoting two nations with two different flags. If abborigines want their own nation and flag let them fight for it all over again, not have it handed to them on a plate. History is what happened and native title and land-rights are sufficient. I feel no guilt for being a fifth generation Australian or that my ancestors fought for their foothold in this land, killing and being killed. I am a part of a silent majority holding this view, a will not change. No culture can claim to own an entire continet it can't defend.

Thanks for the thread Steele, I was discussing the subject with the wife whose people have their own flag in Aotearoa. She used the subject for yesterdays monthly Sunday (online Google Meet) talk. She was very surprised that the Aboriginal flag is being treated as a commercial object, she not being familiar with its past history. Flags in general are seen as a symbol of unity, sometimes for the good, but recently in the US the Confederate flags has been used as a symbol of racial division, as it always has been. The extreme right often wrap themselves in "the flag" thus disguising their perverted hatreds as patriotism in the way the Nazi's did in Germany, the Nazi's were very big on flag waving. My first encounter with a flag was as a young child, have a small Australian flag thrust into my hand and then told; "children wave your flags now" as a big black car sped by. I believe the Queen of England was the occupant. Why I was waving the Aussie flag at a Pom, I don't know, maybe they were out of Pommie flags at the time.

Come in Joe, an Aboriginal flag maker from way back.

The extreme right often wrap themselves in "the flag"
Paul1405,
A lot of indigenous Australians do that at sporting events. I think groups should be able to wave a flag they identify with but it should not be an excuse to stir division.
There's no question that the design of that flag has racial motive/undertone. That flag depicts indigenous blood shed at the hands of the invaders of this land, it does not infer though that blood had been shed in clashes between the many clans long before the invasion.
We can see what that has led to in the middle East !

Copyrighting a flag is as ridiculous as having an Aboriginal flag. One country, one flag. The Aboriginal thing has caused as much division as the Stone Age mumbo jumbo, actually invented in the last few years - welcome to country, and the nonsense of an Aboriginal "nation", not to mention the Pascoe lies.

Albert Namatjira was scorched out of his inheritance by a scammer under similar circumstances. His was a vastly more significant theft than a flag.

In the end of course, the only winners were lawyers.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=albert+namatjira&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

Dan

Dear individual,

You write; “I'm afraid I can't fathom what the problem is with displaying the flag !”

There isn't any problem with displaying it. This only affects profit making enterprises. The AFL is certainly one with turnover in the billions.

By the way the red is depicting the sand/soil in central Australian where the artist hails from.

Dear Lucifrase,

They have fought for it and they have succeeded it getting it recognised as one of the three Australian flags. Or are you saying white Australians never fought to get an independent flag?

Dear Paul1405,

I would be interested to know the upshot of your wife's discussion with the group.

Individual,

Of course, the originator of the Indigenous Flag, Harold Thomas, is Indigenous, from around Alice Springs. He was a lecturer at Torrens CAE here in Adelaide, in their Art School on Taylor's Road (now South Road) in the early seventies.

I'm greatly encouraged by his open and generous offer that anybody can make their own Indigenous Flags, but if they make any money from them or from the design, then they have to pay copyright fees for his intellectual property in the Flag.

That's how copyright works - you originate something, a patent or design or whatever, and you have rights in that product.

Joe

I agree totally that if money is going to be made from
the use of the flag - then compensation needs to be
paid to the original copyright owner.

I don't understand what the problem is.

cont'd ...

As I understand it - the use of the flag is free.
It's only when financial gain is involved that
copyright comes into play - such as the selling of
products with the flag design on it that
compensation is required. Which seems only fair.

I don't like sport being commandeered for social justice purposes.

Look at the soccer teams in England.
Half of those players came from Africa and probably weren't even born in England, but yet they represent some region there.
The locals are supposed to go watch and say look 'They're one of us', but really they're not.

If sport is about social justice, promoting political agendas and maintaining year on year profits via sponsorships, tv rights and other corporate partnerships and if there's barely any links between the players and the places they play for then whats point?

'I was born in Melbourne so I'll go play for Sydney because they're offering the most money.'

It's the reason why State of Origin is popular, because the players actually have to come from there.

All sport mainly is then is a platform to promote social justice and political agendas and keep people occupied and looking in a different direction than what is really going on in the country and the world.

Idiots in Melbourne would've had their brains completely disrupted just because the AFL wasn't on and they have no idea what they were supposed to do with themselves.

Wave your flag or don't wave your flag,
I don't really care who is or isn't getting paid.

None of this grandstanding of the 'bending of the knee stuff' or attacking those indigenous who don't want to part of it is going to create any sense of white guilt within me.

10+ generations ago, my distant paternal relative was sent here as a convict, it wasn't his choice.
My forefathers fought in this nations foreign wars, married indigenous women, and those distant relatives fought in the Frontier wars against the British.
My forefathers already earned my right to have a say.
I'm not responsible for things that happened before I was born.

I bet there will be some divisive racial knee bending.
I wouldn't pay good money to go just to have white guilt shoved down my neck.
I wish the best for indigenous people the same as I do anyone else.

Harold Thomas has said many times that the purpose of the Flag, in his view, was to bring Indigenous people together all over Australia under a common banner. Strictly speaking, unity for the first time in eighty thousand years.

I didn't realise at the time how crucial this could be: that Indigenous groups across Australia had always been very parochial and disparate - that there had never been anything remotely like unity AND how vital that was in the modern era.

Not only that the thousands of clans and family groups had each claimed their own country and guarded it fiercely for eons, but that after 1788, the colonial system necessarily kept Indigenous people apart across the country in their six separate colonial states with the Northern Territory under South Australian jurisdiction (through the Commissioner [Minister] for Education).

Mission societies also perhaps unintentionally divided up their patches and thereby also kept Indigenous groups separated.

Post-War, and until the formation of the Aboriginal Affairs Board in 1967 or so, then the Department of Aboriginal Affairs around 1972 under McMahon, Aboriginal people were still locked into their own parochial preoccupations.

So in many ways, the Flag was one of the first - and perhaps the most striking - symbols and mechanisms for the unity of all Indigenous people all over the country - urban, rural and remote; 'full-blood', yella-fella or whatever; traditional-oriented or very much integrated into contemporary society.

I notice that the Dutch Community Hall occasionally flies a Dutch flag; that Serbs and Croats and Italians and Greeks fly their country's flags at sporting events. It doesn't mean that the Dutch or Croats etc. are claiming any particular bit of Australia - their flags represent their cultural attachments to their countries of origin, perhaps to their languages, and of course their attachments to each other. And I don't see anything much wrong with that.

After all, we're all hyphenated-Australians :)

Joe

The ABBAriginal flag, like the whole 'Welcome to Country' malarkey, is all about commerce and selling things (some) people want.

I've got no problem with that. If people want to buy crystals because of their healing power or bottles of water because its better than rain or want to invest a piece of clothe with special reverence or think that a dance contrived 50 years ago is actually millennia old, and someone makes money out of that ignorance, well good luck to them.

But let's not dress it up as some sort of moral or principled issue.

The guy deserves payment just in recognition or his smarts in hoodwinking a generation.

Dear mhaze,

Settling aside your usual lack of charity on issue like this the point about commercialisation stand to a degree.

One only has to read the history of the ANZAC day match of the AFL to see how money has played such a large part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_Day_match

However the fact that it has been incorporated by shiesters doesn't negate the power of the ANZAC symbolism.

At least the creator of the flag has curbed the commercialisation to a degree and for that we should probably be grateful.

The options are to design a new flag or continue to allow the rent seeking.

Dear shadowminister,

What a prissy little comment.

Tell me should the CSIRO forego any future earnings by opensourcing its WiFi technology?

"This technology is a part of all recent WiFi implementations. As of April 2012, the CSIRO has earned over $430 million in royalties and settlements arising from the use of this patent as part of the 802.11 standards with as much as a billion dollars expected after further lawsuits against other parties."

And why aren't you a rent seeker? You have seemingly profited greatly from government immigration and negative gearing policies in the sale of your house. Are you going to return the profits?

Anyway aren't you a supporter of the free market? Haven't you railed against China breaking patents? Isn't the protection of intellectual rights championed by your president?

How about at least a little consistency?

Oh wait, I get it, it is because he is Black isn't it. Upstart of a fellow it seems. Not deserving of the support you would have given him otherwise.

You can be deeply hypocritical sometimes mate.

Hi Steele,

The wife gave herself the task of explaining the inner meanings and symbolism of the Ngati Hine Iwi (her tribe) flag. The 'facebook' link below shows the flag displayed in Antarctica. Its important that others, particularly the young members, understand the meaning of what they are looking at, ask questions, and offer opinions, which they did. Its much more than a colourful array of geometric shape, which at first glance it would appear to be just that.

The Green of mountains representing the lands of the many hapu (sub tribes within the Iwi). The diamond shape from the korowai (cloak) of Paramount Chief Kawiti (1770?-1854) representing leadership past and present. Black outer, the times before life and the people, the mystery time of the gods. Yellow when light came and the Red of the blood of the parting of Rangi and Papa the primordial parents, the Sky father and Earth mother, long story. There is much more but that's about what I can remember.

http://www.facebook.com/NH.Hineamaru/posts/te-kara-o-ngati-hine-at-the-south-poleour-ngati-hine-flag-has-also-been-to-antar/1834826466663907/

We really need a flag design that reflects our Asianess.

Yellow on a red background comes to mind.

Misop,

If you're so keen, get to work on it then .....

Foulmouth

Paul,

My brother's partner and their two lovely girls are from around Parakao, out west from Whangarei. I'll have to ask them about this whipu. Small world :)

Cheers,

Joe

Steele and Loudmouth, " It doesn't mean that the Dutch or Croats etc. are claiming any particular bit of Australia - their flags represent their cultural attachments to their countries of origin,"

Those flags don't fly side by side with the Australian flag under the Flag Act. The fact the law allows, or requires in some jurisdictions, that an aboriginal nation that never existed be symbolized is something I don't support. It represents a push for treaty and sovereignty where no nation ever stood. I support native title and land-rights claims alongside racist welfare arrangements, but not a flag that grows to represent a division of this country more and more each day.

the red is depicting the sand/soil in central Australia
SteeleRedux,
Thank you for the explanation however, I have actually been informed by people who could safely be categorised as 'stirrers' that the unofficial reference is what I referred to.
Why do Australian Indigenous always refer to themselves as Aboriginal ?
Others indigenous/Aboriginals around the World have a distinct, self reference as to their identity !

Individual,

Aboriginal people may not have common word for themselves as a collectivity - apart from 'Aboriginal', or 'Indigenous', but they do have local words - Nunga, Nyungah, Koori, Murri, etc. I would have thought that you would be fully aware of this up where you are.

Of course, this was one of the purposes, as I understand it, of popularising the Aboriginal Flag - at first, really the Indigenous Flag, for all Indigenous people in Australia, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders - to provide some common basis for them, in terms of self-definition, as a basis for common action.

But the pressures within Indigenous groups for parochialism and differentiation work in the opposite direction. So many local groups have devised their own flags, which vitiates, really buggers up, the intention to try to pull people together.

I do recall, in the year that the Flag was really being popularised, 1972, a huge brawl at the local 'Aboriginal' pub, the Carrington, between two groups from the two main ex-Missions closest to Adelaide. I recall one bloke being place-kicked under the chin; over he went like a sack of potatoes. There seemed to be a couple of dozen fights going on simultaneously.

So much for unity. Stupid bastards.

Joe

Aboriginal people may not have common word for themselves as a collectivity
loudmouth2,
Just as I always thought it was. The reference of 'First Nation' is therefore fairly ambiguous !

SR,

Don't be such a Fwit. I lived in the house I owned and then sold it because I moved cities, which means that I never negatively geared it. Also, having sold my house I then had to buy another at a similar inflated price.

Secondly with regards to intellectual property, the flag is hardly a work of art, and not comparable to a patent that people have spent $ms on. Perhaps you should look up the term "rent seeking" before becoming all anal retentive.

P.S. I assume that your comment about the race of the author was meant to mean that because of his race he is immune from critism. Just another racist comment from you.

Dear shadowminister,

Once again busily building straw men to divert the conversation.

You can't negatively gain your house of residence but that wasn't what I put to you at all is it. I said;

“And why aren't you a rent seeker? You have seemingly profited greatly from government immigration and negative gearing policies in the sale of your house. Are you going to return the profits?”

Those policies have driven house prices and you have directly profited from them. The fact that you and the rest of your party ailed so hard against the proposed corrections to negative gearing does make you a rent seeker, especially as you were seeking to maintain an unequal system designed to distort the market in favour of the propertied class.

The creator of the aboriginal flag did not have had a vote in any election, or directly lobbied politicians to have his design designated as a recognised flag in Australia. How does that make him a rent seeker except in the loosest definition of the word?

As to the flag being a work of art of course it is and regard as such by many. Its simplicity was not an accident and its ability to connect and to represent a movement is undeniable except by the most churlish.

You also have failed to answer the question. Why aren't this person's intellectual property rights worthy of protection and of being defended by you as dictated by your politics?

Indigenous people need to embrace their Asianisation and adopt a flag that symbolises this achievement.

A yellow emu on a red background might do.

Misop,

Perhaps you could tell that to all of the Indigenous people that you know.

So YOU think we all should agree that we are all Asian, and that we should 'therefore' embrace the CCP ? I certainly don't - in fact, I'm very worried about this latest revelation about the insidious buying-off of academics at universities. And the possibility that Huawei might take over the telecommunications in PNG.

Foulmouth

FOULmouth,

Asianisation of Australia requires everybody to accept their Asian identity as a member of an Asian nation-state.

We cannot have some people saying things like "I'm indigenous so I don't have to be Asian." or "I'm Christian so being Asian is just not for me." or "I come from a long line of Melbourne Maoist pie-makers so leave me out of being Asian."

Sorry FOULmouth but it's just too late NOT to be Asian.

Misopinionated,

So it's 'Asians' now, not just 'Chinese' ? Hmmmmm, I thought that, on your street-observations, most of us were Chinese, i.e. Asians of all sorts which means of course, in your view, Chinese. All Asians are Chinese.

Are those your instructions from the CCP ? I wonder why they bother with 'other Asians' - why not just try to force us to be Chinese ? I didn't know that the CCP gave a toss about 'other Asians'.

I don't think even that would work. I don't know how that could even come about without a great deal of force. But I suppose if your mob can jail millions of Uighurs in Sinjiang, they can contemplate jailing a few millions Australians. Or shooting some of us out in the street - that's what I expect for myself actually.

Ah yes, my Melbourne pie-factory, Noon Pies, wonderful Greek work-mates: we made big Banquet pies for the troops in Vietnam - it was back in 1969, after all. You can learn a lot in 51 years, although perhaps not in your case :)

Foulmouth

SR,

Back to topic; yes, I wonder if many people - including Aboriginal people - have some racist notion that Harold Thomas, as an Aboriginal person, has in some way fewer rights to things like intellectual property than a real human being, i.e. a white person.

And that the rights to sell products using the Flag design should be freer for some than for others, that intellectual property restrictions should be relaxed in this case, BECAUSE of Mr Thomas's Aboriginality.

Perhaps Mr Thomas should sit only at the back of the bus, if he can get permission to ride in one.

Joe

A yellow emu on a red background might do.
Mr Opinion,
Why not have red flag with white maggots to represent the Left ?

Dear loudmouth2,

While not wanting to give the undesirables fodder your post does beg the question what if Harold Thomas were white?

individual,

I don't care what it looks like just as long as you accept your Asianess.

Misop,

Why should he ? Not all of us would obey your CCP masters without question.

And even they wouldn't claim to be 'Asian' - they would most certainly trim that down to 'Chinese'. It may come as a surprise to you but many Chinese don't think that all Asians are Chinese - and most Asians don't see themselves as Chinese either.

Which days are you let out ?

Foulmouth

FOULmouth

The Asianisation of Australian initiated by Bob Hawke has nothing to do with China and the CCP.

Multiculturalism in Australia has been the method behind this Asianisation process and four decades on it has basically achieved that goal.

There are interesting questions are about why Australians wanted to become Asian and I think there a number of reasons.

For example, it appealed to the business community because it promised to provide an endless supply of cheap labour from the Asian heartland.

It appealed to humanists like you and Foxy who want to eradicate racism and live in diversified communities.

And it appealed to governments because it provided greater tax revenues and the numbers needed for people-driven economic growth strategies.

We Australians are all Asian now and you need to accept it because there is no going back. If you don't like to be seen as Asian yourself then why not call yourself an Australian-Asian as distinct from an Asian Australian?

It's not a Flag. It's a Pennant. Like they have at the Football.

SR,

You are the one creating a straw man. I moved cities and bought another similar house at the same value, and after transfer duties, rates etc was worse off thanks to government taxes so once again you have failed epically.

Secondly, the concept of an aboriginal national flag being privately owned is a joke hard to make up.

P.S. Patents expire in between 10 - 30 years, and copyrights used to expire with their authors.

I like the rules with regard to our national flag,

"The flag can be used for commercial purposes, including advertising, without formal permission, except when importing products, applying for trademarks and registering designs.

When using or reproducing an image of the flag, you must consider the following guidelines:
•The flag should be used in a dignified manner and reproduced completely and accurately
•The image of the flag should not be covered with other words, illustrations or objects
•All symbolic parts of the flag should be identifiable, such as the Union Jack, the Southern Cross and the Federation Star

Importation and customs regulations for the flag

Any items bearing images of the flag (or closely resembling the flag), including souvenirs, clothing, toys and other merchandise, are considered ‘restricted imports’ under the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations 1956.

The design of the flag should meet the guidelines for the commercial use of the flag and importers and designers can consult PM&C during the initial design phase, before manufacturing the items".

The owner of the copyright is an Aboriginal and he has every right, as an Australian citizen, to apply the European concept of copyright to his design even though flags and copyright are thoroughly outside any ideas that existed in Aboriginal culture.

Is Mise,

The flag was adopted in 1995 which means it was a part of the Great Asianisation Period (1980-2020) in Australia history so in a way we should all adopt it as part of our Asian identity.

I'm sure Foxy and FOULmouth would agree with that proposition.

Is Mise,

Here's a recent typical scene from Sydney showing how successful Asianisation (aka Australian Multiculturalism) has been:

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/sydneys-cbd-coronavirus-cluster-suffers-huge-spike/ar-BB18rGry

Recognise anyone you might be related to?