Should Sunday be a day of rest for all? One where a human does not have to work for payment, with one day out a busy week where all have the right to time with family and for rest.

One where someone can attend a place of worship if they wish, without fear of losing pay and a time were all people are given equity in terms of having a day and time to think, rest, take one's mind to another place and not have to think about another day in busy workforce.

But, there should be no double standards. So such a principle would apply to all people. Would you be willing to accept such a move, or should people be denied Sunday as a day of rest?

If essential workers took Sundays off we would be in a lot of trouble. Sunday, as a 'day of rest' hasn't existed for a long time; it's just like any other day of the week. This doesn't stop workers from expecting extra payment for working on a Sunday, which now means nothing special in the post-Christian West. There is no reason to pay overtime to people who wouldn't have been at church, worshipping. If they were not working, and getting a day off through the week instead, they would be out getting pissed or sleeping in, or doing nothing.

Sundays now are no different from any other day to all but the minority of people who are genuine Christians. 'Day of rest' is an anachronism.

Hi Nathan,

Will this be compulsory for Christians only ?

So Jewish people and Muslims can have Saturday off ? Or is it compulsory for them to take the day off, as Sunday is the compulsory day for Christians ?

Or is it all voluntary ?

Or are you proposing that everything be shut both days for everybody ?

Leaves us un-believers a bit out in the cold :) Or will shops be open all weekend only to us as long as we can show an ID card ?

Brilliant ideas often strike at about a quarter to twelve on a Friday night, don't they ?

Joe

Dear Nathan,

I would love it if Sundays wee to be considered as
"Days of rest". But realistically I doubt that this
will happen. Hospitals, aged care facilities, hotels,
restaurants, libraries, shops, and many other places
now work seven days a week. We're no longer a five
day a week society. Although many government agencies
still are - as are some small businesses.

It would be lovely to have the family get-togethers
of past years - on a Sunday for a roast lunch. It now
only happens on public holidays. As for going to Mass
as a family? That has become difficult if not
impossible due to work. Mass on Saturday evenings
has to fill this gap.

But your idea - is a lovely one. Though not very
do-able in today's world.

it would be nice to have politicians, bureaucrats & fellow citizens with the competence to maintain an economy that would allow us all to rest on a Sunday !

Nathan- I like the idea. Thanks.

NathanJ: I've got good news for you Nathan. There exists a system that is tailor made for accommodating those who want to have Sunday off. It's called a FREE MARKET. You see, under a free market there are no mandatory 3rd party rules regarding rates of pay and conditions*.

So for those that sell their labour and who don't want to work on Sundays they are free to enter into an employment contract that stipulates this when they negotiate their pay and conditions. And if their potential employer wont come to the table on this then they are free to seek employment elsewhere either to do the same sort of work or to change industries.

Also, for those that are in business/self-employed then they are free open for trade on any day they choose. So they can choose to open on Sunday or not.

* To be clear: I don't support totally free markets. There should be protection for other people/businesses not directly involved in a deal. Such as for factors that affects neighbours (eg: noise pollution in the early hours, etc.). But in general, I support free markets where people/businesses are free to negotiate terms and conditions between the parties concerned without the obtruding intervention of the government.

thinkabit,
I think you should thinkabit more.
Think of the incapacitated, of those who need 24/7 care in hospitals, the power station operators, transport etc etc.
Yes, of course it'd be nice to have Sunday off but due to the afore-mentioned it can't be like that. That's why the much maligned western World has working hours. You may have to work on Sunday but you then have Monday off.
I think the present system is ok so far as hours are concerned ! All we need to do is to ensure others get their days of rest also instead of making our 'Business People' wealthy in 3rd World sweat shops !

individual: What don't you understand about what I wrote above?

It is really, really simple. If you don't wont to work on a Sunday, then under a free market system:

A) If your an employee: you can tell you employer this before you start working/sign an employment contract. And if your potential employer insists that you must work on Sundays as a non-negotiable condition of employment then you work seek elsewhere!
And on the flip side, no-one can force an employer to accept that their employees don't have to work on Sunday. They have the right just to not employ them at all and find someone who will work the times that require.

or B) If your a self-employed without a boss: You just don't open up shop.

Now, what happens in real life in is that many people in a predominately Christian based/influenced society don't want to work on a Sunday or if they do they want more pay. So this means that there in less supply of labour at the general rate so that in consequence the cost of labour raises to so that supply at a new higher price now meets demand.

But the most important point is that: No-one under a free market system can FORCE you to work on a Sunday.

No-one under a free market system can FORCE you to work on a Sunday.
thinkabit,
Really ? So, when you're on the operating table tell the medical staff "don't worry you don't have to work Sundays".
Would you tell the electricity supply people they don't have to work on Sundays or the Emergency workers ?
Not everyone has the privilege to choose when to work, society would collapse if people stopped working on Sundays.
I worked many weekends & I then got the time off during the week. It suited me fine !

thinkabit,

Actually, they can force you to work Sunday's if you
want to keep your job that is. And who doesn't?
We were forced to work Sundays and no one asked us
whether we wanted to or not. We were simply rostered
to do it - and when our turns came - we just did it
in order to keep our jobs.

Try telling your boss - nope I'm not working Sundays.
Everyone else is, but I choose not to. I wonder how
long you're going to keep your job - with that attitude.

thinkabit,

We used to have free-market conditions, Charles Dickens, for one, wrote quite a bit on the subject.

Foxy: You say, "Actually, they can force you to work Sunday's if you
want to keep your job that is. And who doesn't?"

In a free market, if you made it a condition of your employment contract that you will not work Sundays, then no they can't make you work on Sunday's without being in breach of contract. And as with any contract that you make, when the other party breaches it you can sue them.

Foxy: You say, "We were forced to work Sundays and no one asked us whether we wanted to or not. We were simply rostered to do it - and when our turns came - we just did it in order to keep our jobs."

So in this case, if it were in a free market, either the contract you where employed under (and that you freely agreed to) had the condition that you are expected to work on Sundays or else they would have been in breach. And if they were in breach you can take court action.

Foxy: You say, "Try telling your boss - nope I'm not working Sundays. Everyone else is, but I choose not to.

Telling you boss that you won't work Sundays is EXACTLY what you do!! BUT you do it when you're negotiating your pay and conditions at the start of your employment (or at the contract renewal). Now, if the potential employer doesn't come to the table on the issue then no contract is formed and you don't work for them. What you can't do is agree to work Sundays in the contract then refuse to work Sunday's once employed- because now you are in breach.

Foxy: You say, "I wonder how long you're going to keep your job - with that attitude."

You will keep your job as long as the conditions agreed to in the contract are not breached. And you will also find that at the end of the contract if you do your job better and cheaper than other candidates then you will most likely be offered to renew your contract.

thinkabit,

I've been there done that. However, I guess it
depends on your profession. I 'm in one that
working on Sundays is par for the course - free
market or not and bargaining or not.
It is simply part and parcel of the job. Not every
Sunday - but definitely a rostered one and if you
refused you would not get hired. Simple as that.
You can negotiate all you want - it's simply a
requirement. And if you want a job - you're
expected to do it. There's not enough professional
staff to go around. You're expected to do your share.

Well, everyone seems to be right...

What is missing so far in this discussion, is the safety-net, whereby no one is ever required to work under conditions that are unacceptable to them. Accordingly, if you cannot find a boss that agrees to let you go on the dates that are most important to you, then you might become poor yet your children will not starve. When a principle is important enough for you, you must be prepared to become poor for it, but you should not be required to choose between sacrificing your most sacred principles or having your family starve to death.

While bosses are not obliged to meet your conditions, they are not inherently your enemies and many will respect you and your wishes if you are clear about them yourself and produce them upfront, politely of course: "Sorry, I am not available for work on Sundays [or during certain hours therein] because I have an important weekly appointment with God".

You may be surprised by all the creative possibilities that goodwill can provide. You could for example become responsible to hire someone else on Sundays to take your place, making you simultaneously both an employer and an employee.

If you want Sundays off join the public service, what ever you do, don't join the tourist industry.

I had been working 11 hour days, 6 & sometimes 7 days a week for about 18 months in the Whitsunday marine tourist industry. The money was lousy, but it was a good lifestyle for me at the time.

I had finished a contract & was taking some time off to do some needed maintenance on my yacht. One afternoon the cruise boat from one of the smaller island resorts appeared behind my yacht at Airlie Beach, & invited me aboard for a beer. The skipper told me their second skipper had left, & he asked me to go down once a week to run this boat to give him a day off.

It was my favorite resort so yes I'd love to. There was only one slight problem. To run the boat on Tuesday for example I had to go down Monday afternoon & back up Wednesday. When they wanted a second day it tied me up as much as a full job.

They suggested I take the yacht down there, I could use their excellent workshop to do my maintenance work, & eat ashore if I liked. Wow, this would be great.

Well it would have been if they hadn't found they wanted much more than a couple of days a week. I did 10, 12 hour days straight then one day off, 28 days straight, including 2 outer reef 4 & 5 day fishing & dive trips, got a day off, then 24 days straight, then quit. Those outer reef trips get very tiring when you are on duty effectively 24 hours a day.

Continued

Continued.

I was running water skying one morning for the guests, & a couple of waitresses asked if they could have a sky, or come on the sky boat. Sure no problem. They told me they did breakfast from 7.30 to 9.00 or so, had a couple of hours break, then lunch, then dinner after a longer break. They worked about 8 hours but from 7.30AM to about 9.00PM, for 6 days a week. No wonder there was a fair turnover among them. The work & the island life was fun for a while, but did get tiring.

Most of us wouldn't have known if it was Sunday.

Sounds to me like the Unions are running low on funds so, they start their old game of disruption again !
thinkabit, are you their sounding board ?

Hopefully we will soon go back to manufacturing in Australia, to be self-sufficient again as we should. This will also provide many Sunday-less jobs for those who want.

No

"Should Sunday be a day of rest"?

Where to begin!
I find trying to place this question, a little perplexing.
I suppose my take on it is that it should be for those who need it to be.
Otherwise it's just Sunday, just another of the seven days in a week.
The idea of "free market" is one I can applaud, BUT, with so many restrictions and caveats placed on businesses who open on a Sunday, it is not economical to do so.
I strongly believe in working as much as possible, sure it can get monotonous, but if that happens it means you're in the wrong job.
I worked seven days a week more times than six, and loved every minute of it, I must have when I recall my wife calling me regularly asking me if I was ever coming home, and even then, ate dinner at whatever time I came home. (Sometimes she would have already eaten, if she was hungry and could not wait, and we did not think anything of it)
Thinkabit, is quite right in his summation and suggestion about someone liking the terms and conditions before they start or accept a job or position.
Once upon a time YOU were in charge of YOUR life and that included your choice of job and employer, not anymore, now we have the unions dictating everything and that has been the ruination of many industries and businesses in Australia.
I must say that as a general question, I disagree that Sunday should be anything at all.
It is and will be whatever each of us need it to be.
As far as resting goes, I find that if you are so tired that you need a whole day of "rest" then I suggest you see a doctor, or a psychiatrist as it is obvious that there is something wrong with you that a good 8 hour sleep won't/can't fix.

Given the complete ballsup Andrews has made of the Chinese virus, it is looking like tougher restrictions will be introduced, and Victorians will be able to rest every day of the week - not just Sundays. It must be noted, however, that Andrews hasn't been able to enforce the restrictions he has already imposed, so how the hell is he going to enforce even tougher ones. Andrews certainly needs to take a rest - permanently - and let someone who knows what he is doing run the state.

ttbn,

it just goes to show these so called leaders all talk the talk when it comes to pre-election speeches and promises, but when they are called upon to do their job and show leadership, direction and problem solving, they prove they are just another shmuck like the people who voted them in.
You wonder why I foam at the mouth when they are referred to as "The Honourable the Minister", my arse.

While Victorians are now banned from SA, people from India are now arriving in the state. Work out that one.

Dear Ttbn,

«While Victorians are now banned from SA, people from India are now arriving in the state. Work out that one.»

The people of Victoria just had it, following their sadistic treatment in March-April-May, they see no end to it, they can no longer tolerate it and are rebelling.

Their attitude is unlikely to change overnight if allowed into SA - people from India are much more likely to follow the rules!

I do think, however, that anyone should be able to cross any border, following 3 weeks of strict quarantine in a dedicated hotel/camp on the border itself, at their own expense and following three negative weekly tests.

Ttbn,

Arrivals from India to Adelaide - repatriations - go straight into fourteen-day quarantine.

But you knew that.

Joe

That system worked so well in Victoria Joe, I guess we can all relax in the knowledge that our state premiers are very smart & have it all under control.

We should consider every day as sacred, by our lifestyle; the important factor is to take one day in seven as a rest day, no matter the day of the week. The body needs a break from the same routines and stress, and for health do something mentally different. For instance if you are a landscaper do not use your rest day to do the gardening at home. If you are a builder do not use your rest day to assist a mate in building his holiday shack. You must relax, go fishing, do some reading, or listen to music, to allow the mind to relax from stress which causes problems later in your health. These days Church is done online and you can listen to Church online at anytime. The other thing is to have social time with family or likeminded people regularly. Church is much more than a weekly service, it is about caring for family and fiends and involvement in community.

I am impressed by the depth of Kant's thought, it definitely warrants further reading.

Yet, assuming the author represents Kant correctly, "Kant denies that we can have any such knowledge about others or even ourselves". The Upanishads face the same issues, but conclude that we CAN have this knowledge, and also discover our autonomy in the process. Not that it is quick and easy, not that it is common, but this is still possible and still, the only worthwhile pursuit for our lives.

Our true nature is autonomous - and freedom is possible by realising this. Our rationality, however, is not autonomous but still part of the world of phenomena. Identifying as "rational beings" (or "rational agents"), while better than identifying with our base inclinations, is still short of recognising who we truly are.

Indeed, we ought to treat others as "an end-in-itself", but this does not mean to treat their human persona as an end-in-itself, it means the true others, who they really are!

«Immanuel Kant lays the foundation for recognizing the inherent dignity of every individual – and discrimination is indeed an affront to human dignity.»

While I accept Kant's "inherent dignity of every individual", there is no such thing as "human dignity". The two are quite different - our inherent dignity is due to our divine nature, not due to our human nature.

Similarly, discrimination does not violate morality so long as it is only between our human qualities, rather than between us and others. It is OK to discriminate against the PERSON of another, so long as you do not identify the actual infinite and autonomous other with their finite, heteronomous personality.

Oops, wrong thread...

I was recently fiddling with the settings on our Fischer & Pykel oven
and came across the Sabbath setting. It is there so the oven cannot be
used on the sabbath.
I had read how Orthodox Jews cannot use electricity on the sabbath but
I never saw whether they can make use of the sewage system on the sabbath.
One Saturday I was about 25 feet up a mast in my backyard struggling to
get an awkward antenna into position, and in next doors yard my neighbor
was sitting in the sun reading. They were Seven Day Adventists.
He said to me, "I will give you a hand tomorrow if you like".
My thoughts were one thing, but I said, "No matter I will get it right soon".
As far as electricity is concerned, if the power stations were to close
it would take a day to shut down and a day to start up again. So three
days would be lost !
If various religious groups wanted their days observed it would mean no
power for five days a week ! hmmm.

It does illustrate the absurdity of those rules in a modern society.

Dear Bazz,

«I had read how Orthodox Jews cannot use electricity on the sabbath but
I never saw whether they can make use of the sewage system on the sabbath.»

Orthodox Jews CAN use electricity on the Sabbath, provided they do not turn electrical devices on/off or change their settings. It is OK however for settings to be changed by automated devices (such as by thermostats), by small children (so long as they are not told to do it) or by non-Jewish people (without instructing them explicitly during the Sabbath). Sewage normally operates by gravity, not by electricity.

There are also some valid technological tricks to bypass some prohibitions - enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbkvJznmwU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQf2l8RxJaE

If you are interested in the legal nitty-gritty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WVIBap9wYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FL-l6qUiqCQ

But if you are looking for the spirit of things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDvJw1H8fE